Baucus’ Rebuttal: “This is the Way Democracy Ends”
Baucus’ Rebuttal: “This is the Way Democracy Ends”
Sen. Max Baucus today offered the rhetorical antithesis to Sen. Santorum’s crass reference to Adolph Hitler. Read it, pass it on to friends. It is a powerful, jarring speech, one that expresses the profound importance of the moment we’re experiencing now.
Mr. President, last week, on Wednesday, we evacuated the Capitol. At the instruction of the Capitol Police, more than a few Senators and staff actually ran from this building and the surrounding offices in the very real fear that a plane was carrying a bomb to attack this building, the center of our democracy.
Sadly, Wednesday was not the first time. And Wednesday will likely not be the last time, that we guard against threats to our democracy by plane and bomb.
But there are other threats to our democracy and our freedoms, just as menacing, equally as dangerous.
Abraham Lincoln said: “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter, and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.”
Former Librarian of Congress Daniel Boorstin said: “It is not slogans or bullets, but only institutions, that can make, and keep, people free.”
And Baron Montesquieu wrote in The Spirit of the Laws: “There is no liberty, if the judiciary power be not separated from the legislative and the executive.” …
Mr. President, in ancient Rome, when the Senate lost its power, and the emperor became a tyrant, it was not because the emperor abolished the Senate. In ancient Rome, when the Senate lost its power, it continued to exist, at least in name. But in ancient Rome, when the Senate lost its power, in the words of the Senate’s historian, Senator Robert Byrd, the Senate became “little more than a name.”
In ancient Rome, when the Senate lost its power, the Roman Senate was complicit in the transfer. The emperor did not have to seize all the honors and powers. The Roman Senate, one after another, conferred greater powers on Caesar.
It was not the abolition of the Senate that made the emperor powerful. It was the Senate’s complete deference.
Like the Roman Senate before us, we risk bringing our diminution upon ourselves. We risk bringing upon ourselves a hollow Senate, a mere shadow of its past self. And we risk bringing upon ourselves a loss of the checks and balances that ensure our American democracy. …
Mr. President:
This is the way democracy ends;
This is the way democracy ends;
This is the way democracy ends;
Not with a bomb, but a gavel.
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Santorum, you petty, short-sighted man. I hope you know how you and Frist will go down in history.
May 19th, 2005 at 9:11 pmThanks for this.
May 19th, 2005 at 9:18 pmSantoum and the rest of the spineless GOP clown, when Rove or Bush says squat you just say how much. Damm the republic
May 19th, 2005 at 9:33 pmI don’t think the GOP has the votes to pull this off. There are still a few, a very few Republicans left who put the interests of the country above those of Bush and Rove. And, that few should be enough to prevent the nuclear option from getting the necessary 50 votes. That is our only hope.
May 19th, 2005 at 10:01 pmMax Baucus is an honorable man, despite his choice of party. I even shook his hand once back in the 70’s.
However, the biggest threat to our form of government is simply that we are nearing the point where nearly half of Americans pay zero income taxes. (see IRS website)
If this trend continues, in a few years the majority (non-taxpayers) will be able to impose their will on the minority, (the payers) and the demand for free services will increase and increase without end.
We are seeing a lot of that type of thinking on this blog. Demands for free health care. Demands of an increase in the minimum wage. Demands on the upper middle class wage earners. Demands on every one in America who is productive.
In a sane world, those bottom earners who are being subisidized by the producers should be thankful. Yet, listen to them. Cursing, calling names, and further righteous demands of their rightful entitlements.
Everyone can’t be on the wagon getting a lift. Some have to shoulder the burden. That number is getting smaller and smaller.
I have always pulled the wagon. My pulling days are over. There are more people getting on the wagon as we pullers retire.
Think about it.
May 19th, 2005 at 10:17 pmshorter buckshot: Payroll taxes? Never heard of ‘em.
May 19th, 2005 at 11:37 pmBuckshot: Fewer people and companies are paying taxes or are paying fewer taxes thanks to King George – you aren’t criticizing his policies are you?
I always thought that progressive taxation was the sign of an enlightened society, you know, all that “for the common good”, “do unto others”, “rich man…heaven…camel…needle” stuff that the supporters of family values and virtue should support…..
What gall those people making minimum wage have wanting more money…
What an affront it must be to “productive” people – like you?
You may have financed the wagon, possibly licenced it, in a stretch you might have steered it; but if you really had pulled it, I don’t think your indignation at the “demands” of those “bottom earners” for frivolous things like health care and an intact Social Security system would be so strong.
But perhaps you’d like to lend your support to ask King George to repeal his tax cuts (income, estate, and corporate) to 2000 levels. That way, the wagon might go a bit faster…
May 20th, 2005 at 12:06 amMax’s speech had to be one of the funniest I have ever heard, especially with lines like this:
“Change alone is unchanging.”
What an intellectual midget!
May 20th, 2005 at 1:00 amCapitalist Infidel, you would be all too aware of what an intellectual midget is. Quoting Heraclitus would seem amusing to you because you share the intellectual curiosity of our president. History will bury demagogues like Santorum and Bush.
May 20th, 2005 at 1:34 amDavid,
Yes, I have criticized GWB’s policies. As I said, I did not vote for him.
Most of your post is vague and meaningless to me. As far as hoping for tax increases, no, I have never advocated higher taxes.
I would certainly hope GWB would not repeal the tax cuts.
May 20th, 2005 at 1:34 amAnd I see Lance is just another American hating elitist. No wonder your side calls people names all the time, its kinda fun.
That Heraclitus must have been one brilliant guy with such a profound phrase as “Change alone is unchanging.� Good grief, a four year old could have come up with that kind of nonsense.
May 20th, 2005 at 3:12 amWe need a working national healthcare system. It will be costly but there is no alternative. Someplace to house the mentally ill like Capitalist Infidel. Damn that Reagan. He had to free all the lunatics, it’s the only way the Republicans could get elected. Once we have them locked up again, we can interrogate them to death. Buckshot, if you can no longer pull the wagon, it’s the glue factory for you.
May 20th, 2005 at 7:15 amThat Heraclitus must have been one brilliant guy with such a profound phrase as “Change alone is unchanging.� Good grief, a four year old could have come up with that kind of nonsense.
Have you ever studied Zen Buddhism, sir?
May 20th, 2005 at 8:29 amHey buckshot….. Just because you ate the dung they shoveled your way does not mean that we should follow suit….you can eat my portion. Stop being a robot. Think.
May 20th, 2005 at 9:25 amBuckshot, at one time there was NO income tax in this land of the fee. It was Abraham Lincoln who instituted it.
A Republican, was he not?
You’re looking for a scapegoat. Picking on the underpaid is an easy target.
May 20th, 2005 at 10:02 amChange is the only constant. Therefore a conservative will never be happy, unless happiness is defined by futile resistance to change. I guess they are happy after all. Happiness in futility. Now that is Zen.
May 20th, 2005 at 10:18 amNico, good choice. Thanks, man.
May 20th, 2005 at 10:21 amWhy is it that when the drones of the republican party hear something they don’t like, the either attack the messanger or try to change the subject?
I’ll tell you my opinion on the matter. Because they don’t have a plausible, reasonable or coherent reply to the point at hand and rather than admit that their emperor (and that is what dumbya is trying to do here) wears no clothes, they have a need to strike back any way they can and those I posted are the easiest in their minds. But that logic is poor. It is on the same level as that of kids or teenagers when confronted with a reality they don’t like.
Try to stick to the topic at hand. Other threads come throughtout the day & week and your opportunity will come to comment on what you want to say.
Now, try to defend bush43’s lies.
May 20th, 2005 at 10:27 amWow. The things I learn on this blog from ‘progressives’.
This morning I learned that Lincoln started the income tax.
Thanks Ron. Any other pearls of wisdom?
May 20th, 2005 at 11:46 amIt’s funny that our Senate should be compared to the Roman senate. In January, I read I, Claudius by Robert Graves. A work of historical fiction written 1934 from the point-of-view of one of the last Roman emperor’s, this book really got me thinking. It got me thinking that our society IS very much like the society just before the fall of Rome.
May 20th, 2005 at 12:17 pmDon’t believe me? On every corner of a Roman province you could find a bath house across the road from a lodging near an eating establishment. On every corner I see a BP across the road from a Holiday Inn Express near a McDonald’s.
The Roman emperor punished those who did not agree with his gods. That’s all I’ll say on that.
Except for the way they were punished. Does it occur to anyone else that “reality television” is the Circus Maximus all over again? Cheering the pain and humiliation of others so that our own lives don’t seem so awful.
Those in power used their wealth and influence, not to help the masses who worked to keep them in their life of leisure, but to buy favors and gain more wealth and power. The workers scrambled just to stay above water and were the majority.
So everyone beware. The emperor before Claudius was Caligula. He had his senators tortured, exiled and killed.
“So, when the U.S. Treasury needed money to fight the Civil War, President Abraham Lincoln signed the Tax Act of 1862. If your annual income fell between $600 and $9,999, you paid 3 percent. Above $10,000, you paid 5 percent. In just two years, however, the tax rate for income over $10,000 had jumped to 10 percent. Lincoln himself seems to have had a little difficulty with the paperwork. He overpaid $1,250 in 1864. By the time the refund came in 1872, it had to be paid to his estate.”
first < href="http://www.knowledgenews.net/history/incometax.htm">income tax signed into law by President Abrahman Lincoln.
Buckshot, let me know when you need another history lesson.
May 20th, 2005 at 12:48 pmlink
He could have vetoed the income tax, but he didn’t.
Oh yeah, what day did he die? April 15, 1865
May 20th, 2005 at 12:53 pmUm, so what’s your point, Ron? Originally, Tax Day was March 1 (from 1914-1917), then March 15 (from 1918-1954). Care to figure out the Lincoln Connection to those dates? It wasn’t until 1955 that Tax Day was moved to April 15.
May 20th, 2005 at 1:12 pmI sincerely doubt that neither the Republican-controlled 83rd Congress nor the Republican President would have deliberately intended the change to coincide with the date of Lincoln’s death.
Ron,
You said it was Abe who “instituted” it.
What Lincoln did was done in time of national crisis. It was temporary and was ended after things cooled down. Decades went by before the income tax was “instituted”.
1913, to be exact.
At any rate, I have no need to defend Lincoln, Republicans, or anyone else (for any reason).
I’m only responsible for my own actions. I don’t vote republican, by the way.
May 20th, 2005 at 1:12 pmQuite a coincidence, whether or not it is of any significance, you just can’t make this stuff up.
May 20th, 2005 at 1:32 pmBuckshot, you protest too much. You have an “I got mine, now the rest of you f*ck off” attitude. Shameful.
May 20th, 2005 at 1:44 pmRon,
I agree with most of what you say on the topic of Lincoln. One GLARING difference is that the Republican Party of Lincoln’s era, was actually the liberal party.
May 20th, 2005 at 2:02 pmZoo,
Your words, not mine. I do not use profanity.
As far as accompllishments, every person has a choice in the matter of their own behavior. I advocate rational thought, self discipline, and self control.
If I am to be condemned for my beliefs, I plead guilty.
Janie,
I’ve studied Civil War history for 30 years. There are so many differences between that time and the present.
It is hard to make any comparisons in the area of welfare or entitlements, because there was/were none.
Many things occurred during the civil war that were blatantly unconstitutional. The country was in total war. None of the wars or periods since can compare to the Civil War Period.
Rons syllogism goes somethin like this….
Lincoln was a republican.
Lincoln began an income tax.
Therefore….. (drum roll, please)……
Republicans are responsible for todays Income tax system.
This is like blaming Isaac Newton for the shuttle disasters.
May 20th, 2005 at 2:43 pmCapitalist Imbecile mocks what he will not understand.
May 20th, 2005 at 2:56 pmBuckshot abuses that which he has benefitted from.
Shame on both of you, if you can understand why. Back to your bibles, the New Testament parts, the red words Jesus spoke. Then repent.
I can see some parallels from Lincoln’s time to now. Are we not in a state of war? And yet, Dubbya, in his infinite cronyism, has granted and extended tax cuts that favor those of his own elitist class. This is someone who has never been held accountable for his own decisions (every time one of his businesses went belly-up someone bailed him out or covered it up) and will not take genuine responsibility for putting American military lives at risk as well as countless civilians. He won’t even responsibly pay the tab – my children will be stuck with it – and probably their children too.
I cry everytime I hear the national anthem these days because it breaks my heart that the promise of this country is being systematically destroyed by these silver-spoon yahoos.
May 20th, 2005 at 3:01 pmLooks like Senator Baucus watched Star Wars Episode 3 –
Sen. Baucus : “This is the way democracy ends”
Queen Amidala : “This is how liberty dies – to thunderous applause.”
May 20th, 2005 at 3:39 pmBaucus’ Rebuttal: “This is the Way Democracy Ends�
Powerful. Read it and pass it along.
(via ThinkProgress.org)
Sen. Max Baucus today offered the rhetorical antithesis to Sen. Santorum’s crass reference to Adolph Hitler. Read it, pass it on to friends. It is a powerful, jarring speech, one tha…
May 20th, 2005 at 4:15 pm“This is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause.” — Senator Amidala, Star
May 20th, 2005 at 4:20 pmWars: The Fall Of The Republic
great speech. just a quick note to buckshot.
the investment class are NOT productive. the only people that are actually productive and create the wealth of this country, are the ones who actually do the work. you know, thos “bottom earners”. You would have nothing without them. keep that in mind.
May 20th, 2005 at 4:25 pmIts a good thing that the Demo senators are picking up on the use of repetition in their rhetoric. The wingnuts use it constantly, until it becomes mesmerizing: Up and Down vote, Up and Down vote, Up and Down vote, etc.
Even in this overexposed age, good rhetoric can inspire. Feel the force, Palpatine!
May 20th, 2005 at 4:30 pmMargo, I agree with everything you stated, except for the state of WAR. I would like for anyone reading this post to pass along anything that can point me to the actual declaration of WAR with Iraq that was drafted by the United States Congress. You won’t find one, since it doesn’t exist. The WAR in Iraq is an illegal invasion of another sovereign nation. Here is a simple fact, ONLY Congress can declare WAR. Our precious Constitution plainly states this. Bu$h told Congress and the American people that the United States was at WAR, though Congress never actually declared WAR.
The facts are this: Bu$h LIED to the world in order to destroy another sovereign nation that did not attack the United States, and now MANY people are dying because of that LIE. Our liberty and freedoms died when the USA PATRIOT Act was enacted. Only a revolution will save America now. When, and only when the American people march in the streets of Washington DC and demand our White House back, will we ever see liberty and freedom again.
Think about it.
May 20th, 2005 at 4:53 pmRagz-
You’re right about the lack of declaration. Congress completely abdicated their responsibility and gave Bu$h an “blank check.” This is exactly what Baucus is talking about in his speech – the legislative branch ceding all power over to the executive. They’ve been doing it since Bu$h was first unelected.
I really wish someone would put some clothes on this emperor – he is one butt-ugly naked guy!
May 20th, 2005 at 5:00 pmYeah Buckshot and both shuttle disasters occurred under Republican administrations…..well, I thought I would just add that in into the mix, really means nothing…Bucky ol boy, you go too much time on your hands, go pull a wagon, you @ss…….and kudos to Ron and Margo……Buck….stop writing and listen to the adults…..enough of your tripe.
May 20th, 2005 at 5:08 pmPaper Ballots, Hand Counted……..or it’s to the concentration camps with any who dissent the bush crime family. An actual election must happen in 2006 and in 2008. If they both do happen, and the votes are actually counted, the bush crime family and their neoCon henchmen will self-exiled or put in prison (if they escape the electric chair).
May 20th, 2005 at 5:25 pmBuckshot, we are in a national crisis right now, but you oppose raising taxes. We may need another civil war to resolve this. Thank a God you probably believe in that all the hi-tech modern machinery of war is made in blue states. You are doomed. Bring it on!
May 20th, 2005 at 6:09 pmHere’s a fun little factoid: 2/3rds of Bush’s tax cuts went to the metropolitan areas of New York, Boston, Seattle, and San Francisco. We are using that extra money for things like stem cell research.
And yes, liberals are the main economic drivers of this country, despite the “Republicans ae better businessmen” rhetoric.
May 20th, 2005 at 6:38 pmAnd like today, southerners in the civil war looked at maps and said, “Look how much bigger we are than those little northern states.” Just like those mostly-red maps conservative bloggers post everywhere today. It never occurs to them that half the population lives in those little blue dots, the industrial half.
May 20th, 2005 at 6:40 pmI think everyone needs to start ignoring “buckshot”. He must be a facist plant as he writes early and often and is very good at keeping everyone off the posted subject. He’s just stirs emotion without reason.
May 20th, 2005 at 8:55 pmI would like to respond to Buckshot’s original point. It seems to me that we have more and more people NOT paying taxes because the average income for working people (ie, those NOT surviving on investment income) has gone DOWN steadily since the 1970s. It was the 1950s that was the heyday of the working man, and I thought the conservatives just loooooove that era….back when the highest tax bracket was >90%!
May 20th, 2005 at 9:40 pmMost people don’t want a handout….just a way to make a living with a hard day’s work. That means good jobs (in THIS country), and a willingness by those who have not only made it, but made it beyond their wildest dreams, to give back to the country that allowed them such opportunity. Sounds patriotic, doesn’t it?
Yes, buckshot, please continue eating your own. Let me know when your job disappears and you are left to chose between nothing and WalMart. The ruling class have a plan and that plan is to make us all debt slaves. Welcome to Slave Planet.
May 20th, 2005 at 11:14 pmPeople like Buttshot arent worth much effort because they are such disappointing adversaries.
“I advocate rational thought, self-control, and self-discipline” in everyone but himself!!
“Times of entitlement” for who? The oil and coal industry? That must be who he means. Rational thought would lead you to a simple conclusion – more of the American pie being owned by foreigners in the form of huge trade deficits, 2% of Americans own 90% of what’s left, leaving 98% of Americans to share 10% of a shrinking pie.
American dream my @ss…it doesnt exist for those who work to make their way in this country. The citizenry have been indoctrinated to accept their place and in Buttshot’s case even argue for the crumbs thrown their way.
People who desire better circumstances arent coming from a place of entitlement as the MSM & Buttshot tell us – it is natural to yearn for personal, culteral, & societal betterment. It is natural to want to reap the benefits of what you sow. And it is human to protect and care for those who are less fortunate (which in Buttshot’s world equates with lazy, undeserving, stupid, or perhaps even not rich & white). Anything else is uncivilized and unfulfilling not to mention just plain greedy and selfish.
Jesus said his ministry existed to serve the poor & heal the sick among other things. To do less than that as a society ie: eliminating SS and welfare and denying Americans Universal healthcare is in a word Ungodly. It is also highly hypocritical of Shrub and his ilk.
May 21st, 2005 at 12:34 amButtshot with buckshot. LOL! Here Butthead, a real conservative:
“Now it is true that I believe this country is following a dangerous trend when it permits too great a degree of centralization of governmental functions. I oppose this–in some instances the fight is a rather desperate one. But to attain any success it is quite clear that the Federal government cannot avoid or escape responsibilities which the mass of the people firmly believe should be undertaken by it. The political processes of our country are such that if a rule of reason is not applied in this effort, we will lose everything–even to a possible and drastic change in the Constitution. This is what I mean by my constant insistence upon “moderation” in government. Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid.”
You should read the http://www.eisenhowermemorial.org/presidential-papers/first-term/documents/1147.cfm“>whole letter, Butthead, and read it to Beavis while you are at it, because then you will realize you have become a fascist and you didn’t even know it.
May 21st, 2005 at 12:47 amhttp://www.eisenhowermemorial.org/presidential-papers/first-term/documents/1147.cfm
May 21st, 2005 at 12:49 amDudes, I see a lot of arguments about taxes in America up top. Taxes would be lower for everyone, and maybe even healthcare would be affordable if America didn’t spend more in the military industrial complex than the entire world combined. More schools and doctors, less bombs. Cheney’s personal worth went from 1 to sixty million in his first term. Aren’t kickbacks great? It’s not about the “right” or “left” points of view, it is about accountable government and hontesty. The taxpayer is getting screwed. All of them.
May 21st, 2005 at 1:34 amThere is a lot of anger out there.
Anger is like acid – it burns from the inside.
Once you folks conquer your anger, and make the conscious choice to depend on yourself, and NO ONE ELSE, your lives will improve from that point forward.
Good luck.
May 21st, 2005 at 1:37 am“I always thought that progressive taxation was the sign of an enlightened society, you know, all that “for the common good”"
Collectivism, Socialism, Marxism
May 21st, 2005 at 2:24 amActually, I think that Senator Baucus is drawing on T.S. Eliot rather than George Lucas. Eliot’s ‘The Hollow Men’ ends:
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.
http://www.cs.umbc.edu/~evans/hollow.html
May 21st, 2005 at 5:44 amI drop by here to see what these single-winged
creatures flopping around on one wing, beating
themselves into a frenzy have to say.
The Death of Politics is imminent, single-winged
brothers.
Democracy only lives in the heads of the true
believers, irrespective of all the useless cliches
it’s produced.
In the words of a switched-on Discordian, now is the time “we must all stick apart”.
May 21st, 2005 at 9:05 amIF I am angry – it is because some people are so easily distracted by their own prejudices and so easily bought by a corporate marketing machine and a governmental propaganda machine that their minds are closed to what is actually going wrong around them! One of the forms of this mind closure are people who blame the victim for their own bad luck. Another form is the perceived individuality of citizens in a community. This is so easily refuted as to be laughable yet there Buttshot is in writing again and again talking about it. I guess he kills his own dinner every day!
It isnt the easy road to take wanting your country and the people’s representatives to aspire to something better. It is incumbent upon ALL who live in a democracy (especially one whose actual existence is in question) to question authority.
I live by a simple rule when seeking truth – the level of truth is inversely proportional to the amount of money the person who is reporting the information is making. Follow the money….
May 21st, 2005 at 11:28 amBuckshot,
No one is an island. It is impossible to depend on no one but yourself. You depend on your boss to sign your paycheck. You depend on your doctor to help you out through your illness. You depend on your family and friends for emotional support. You depend on your teachers to give you an adequate education…
What if all these institutions are eroded? You have nothing. That is what we are fighting against.
May 21st, 2005 at 12:41 pmI just wanted to point out that Baucus is a MONTANA REPUBLICAN! If HE said this, be afraid for your constitution!
If a Republican from a super red neck state says the nuclear option is not good, I hope they listen!
May 21st, 2005 at 3:21 pmJustin,
Nice cliche’s. I prefer original dialogue. If you have any original thoughts or questions, let me know.
Leslie,
If you you hadn’t exposed your ignorance of which party Baucus belongs, your comments would carry more weight. Research first, then share your wisdom.
May 22nd, 2005 at 12:07 amThanks Buck,
It’s nice that you attack the person when you can’t think of a legitimate comeback and yet you howl bloody murder when someone does it to you…
There’s a word for that.
May 22nd, 2005 at 12:46 amkeep in mind people, the country ran fine without income tax. income tax is illigal and against the constitution. The fact that the country ran fine before it says it is even unnecessary. Doug
May 22nd, 2005 at 2:33 amJustin,
Your comments didn’t say anything to me. They just sounded like cliche’s. I’m not attacking you. If you have something to say, say it. I will respond to any legitimate question or discussion.
May 22nd, 2005 at 2:43 amButtshot – people like you are dangerous for one simple reason – you assume we are all equally as foolish and as easily fooled as you are. Wake up, fool. The unenlightened can never convince the enlightened. Dozens of years of your theories in practice have proven you dead f*&^ing wrong. Your repetitive monologue will only work on those who arent paying attention. You are in the wrong place – go find a choir to preach your sad, tired, worn-out littany to. Chickens cant fly with eagles my oh-so-disappointing adversary.
May 22nd, 2005 at 1:00 pmBriman,
You didn’t really say anything. I can’t imagine why you think I’m dangerous. I advocate rational thought, responsible behavior, polite discussion, and love of family.
Tell me which of those are dangerous.
May 22nd, 2005 at 1:37 pmI dunno, buck. Rational thought? Well, if we thought rationally, we wouldn’t feel a paranoid need for firearms, so that’ll cost the jobs of those who make said firearms. Responsible behavior? Think of any vice someone would have. Lowering, or eliminating demand for alcohol, say would be such a detriment to the economy. And love of family? Well, so long as said family doesn’t include any gay members, that shouldn’t be such a problem. ;)
May 23rd, 2005 at 7:00 amSorry, just had to be a smart ass, it’s early in the morning. . .
Seriously though, I do see what you’re getting at, and haven’t really felt any untoward aggression, or any aggression at all, in fact. Say what you shall, you bring up some very valid points, without being particularly nasty too.
May 23rd, 2005 at 7:03 amLocke,
Thank you. I intend no harm. I only wish to offer some suggestions for new ways of looking at things that are important.
There’s the old saying “kill the messenger”. People don’t like to hear the truth sometimes.
On your gun comment, our constitution clearly laid out the reasons the citizens needed to keep & bear arms. It wasn’t to shoot deer. It was to protect themselves against evil – whether government or other.
The inner city ghetto/gang issue is a mess, and results in a lot of people letting their emotions take over. Taking guns away from law abiding people will not make Americans safer.
There are millions of guns in the hands of gangbangers & criminals. They aren’t going to turn their guns in. Only the law abiding folks will turn the guns in.
That wouldn’t help, would it?
It might help prevent a few kids being killed by accident, and might prevent a few crimes of passion, but at what cost?
Let’s go with rational thought and see where that takes us. If it fails us, we can always throw our hands in the air, get emotional, and become a progressive.
May 23rd, 2005 at 3:34 pmA few simple things we can all do to test the hypothesis that conservatives are the sole arbiters of rational thought:
-go to a gun show, find a stage or maybe just a box to stand on, and loudly announce that the 2nd amendment is nothing but a load of crap
-try talking reasonably to pro-life protesters outside your local Planned Parenthood (if you still have one in your area, that is) about the importance of the services PP provides
-the next time you see someone getting out of a vehicle plastered with pro-war stickers and magnets, stop and tell them (politely, of course) that you think war is murder and we should love our enemies
-find an avid Bush supporter and try engaging in a reasonable discourse about one of the following topics:
…the possibility that the administration deliberately deceived the American public in presenting reasons for going to war w/ Iraq
…the concept of a balanced budget and how fiscally irresponsible (and UNconservative) the current admin is
…science in general
…the idea that maybe we have our own aristocracy here in the US, and a lot of them are in govt
…why it’s important to treat other people, countries, and global organizations w/respect–even if you are the U.S.A.
These are just a few ways we might invoke that legendary, cool-as-cucumber, unemotional conservative response…
-
May 24th, 2005 at 10:41 amBuck,
May 25th, 2005 at 10:26 amLOL, good point. We STILL have traditional militias training in the use of Constitutionally guaranteed firearms. I should have brought that up, thank you. Of course, my smart-ass point in that being a starry-eyed optimist that I am, in a perfect world we would poo-poo such a need for a mechanism to kill other people, especially in such a painful way.
You know, not a lot of people realize the point you bring up: That our founding fathers put our right to bear arms in so that we could take our country back by force, if necessary, from a governing body, unelected and disregarding the good of the republic for foreign interests. . . that sounds familiar. OOP! That’s not treason is it? ;)
Trisha, that sounds like a bunch of discordian hooey! :D But it WOULD get them thinking, wouldn’t it? And that’s the whole point of moving forward? Or is it the pursuit of small green pieces of paper? I can never tell.
May 25th, 2005 at 10:37 amSenator Baucus’ response was excellent and historicaly accurate…but I missed santorum’s initial comments??
June 2nd, 2005 at 2:18 pmIt would appear that the terms “liberal” and “conservative” have long out-lived theri original meanings…thanks in part to the massive debts run up by Bush 41 and Bush 43.
Perhaps its time to revert to the Revolutionary War era connotations of “Tory” vs. …what? (?Patriot?). That certainly would be a Rovian-like wordplay, only in an honest direction. Certainly, “Tory” connotes a rather rigid, inflexible systems of beliefs primarily economically (i.e., economic class)- based.
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