Right-Wing Wants to Wait For Another Enron
By on May 31st, 2005 at 5:19 pm
Right-Wing Wants to Wait For Another Enron
SEC Chairman William Donaldson’s aggressive crackdown on corporate wrongdoing has provoked a backlash from the right-wing, who have started a whisper campaign that Donaldson is engaged in “Stalinist planning.”
The response to Donaldson has also exposed the right-wing’s disastrous economic approach. In a CQ article [sub. req'd.] American Enterprise Institute scholar Peter Wallison had to say about Donaldson’s actions:
The idea of regulating in areas where there has been no market failure is quite stunning.
Of course. Who would ever want to prevent a problem before it starts? Better to wait for a complete meltdown, like Enron or WorldCom, and then think about doing something.
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Right on. It’s pro-buisness to support regulation that inspires conifdence in investors. Waiting for a crisis does not inspire confidence.
May 31st, 2005 at 5:31 pmI think it’s pro-investor, Mike. Pro-business with this administration is synonymous with screw the investor and the consumer.
May 31st, 2005 at 5:36 pmIt’s the market failure that’s profitable to the market manipulators and their parasites. Regulating before the crisis limits opportunity, and hence is unAmerican.
May 31st, 2005 at 6:07 pmMy standard analogy for business regulation is child rearing (they are amazingly similar). My simple questions to the whispering business folks is: would you wait until your children bought drugs before you prevented them from going to the places where drugs are sold? Would you wait until they failed a class before you made them do their homework?
May 31st, 2005 at 6:14 pmRegulating business has a lot of similarities to regulating your children. Would you wait for them to fail a course before you made them do homework? Would you wait until they bought drugs before you prevented them from going to a place where drugs are sold?
May 31st, 2005 at 6:21 pmLook at what people like Elliot Spitzer (AttnyGen, NY) do with misbehaving businesses and wonder why there’s any reason not to have SOMEONE performing oversight.
May 31st, 2005 at 6:28 pmGenerally speaking, it is best to enforce the laws we have on the books FIRST, and then if that doesn’t fix the problem, we can create new laws.
The demands for further layers of bureaucracy usually do little good. We have some major “adjustments” in store for us in financial markets, and inflation is absolutely on it’s way.
Just like in boxing, the best advice is to “Protect yourself at all times”. You don’t drop your hands just because the bell rang. You might get clocked.
If you have investments you are worried about, put them into something safe. I like equipment, personally. In times of inflation (which is right around the corner) good equipment increases in value. A lot of real estate is going to drop in value – some will plummet – but there are some good values out there, too.
Most young “progressives” really don’t have a positive net worth yet anyway, so most of this cynical blather is pointless anyway. If you haven’t figured out how to control your own budget, why would you be qualified to give advice to those who have?
May 31st, 2005 at 6:51 pmWhy don’t you get your own website. You are taking up these “poor progressive’s� bandwidth. Maybe you are just too cheap.
May 31st, 2005 at 7:33 pm“Most young “progressivesâ€? really don’t have a positive net worth yet anyway, so most of this cynical blather is pointless anyway. If you haven’t figured out how to control your own budget, why would you be qualified to give advice to those who have?”
What the Hell does that mean? We’re talking about formal regulation of businesses, especially business disclosure and accounting practices. You think you’re so savvy that fraudulent accounting and concealment of crucial financial information can’t bite YOU? You are wrong, wrong, wrong.
The people who got bitten by Enron, Global Crossing, Sunbeam, Bausch and Lomb, and on & on, weren’t stupid, they were duped. Intelligence is of no value when you apply it to false information.
And boy are you arrogant. How do you know my age, my finances, or anything else about me or anyone posting to this board?
Speaking for myself, I have a whole lot more work experience than our esteemed President, and started from a whole lot farther back from the finish line than most of the ranting rodents of the right, including Limbaugh, Coulter, O’Reilly, and Hannity.
Of all the posts I’ve seen on this board, yours was undoubtedly the most insulting.
May 31st, 2005 at 7:48 pmPerhaps I was a bit hasty. Keep posting, Buchshot. You are almost out of feet, but your mouth has lots more room.
May 31st, 2005 at 8:05 pmBuckshot and Tony, head over on to this site
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2005/05/dont_cry_for_us.html
They have a digital cluebat for you.
May 31st, 2005 at 8:53 pmI want to know what buckshot does with his Permanent Fund Dividend check every year. He couldn’t possibly cash it? It’s a government handout. How bad is your state when they have to pay you to live there?
May 31st, 2005 at 8:59 pmThat’s right! If he still lives in Alaska. He’s essentially on the dole!
May 31st, 2005 at 9:14 pmAfter 30 years “Deep Throat” broke his silence.
May 31st, 2005 at 10:15 pmThat kind of behavior should be scaring the hell out of Bushco right about now.
Lee,
I made no assumptions about you. I’ve never even heard of you.
In answer to your question, I mean exactly what I say.
Jay,
Let’s talk about poor people & taxes – or are you still in diversion mode?
May 31st, 2005 at 10:30 pmYou have the floor….
May 31st, 2005 at 10:39 pmJay,
You were telling me what a raw deal you were getting when you were a college student – how you were being screwed out of 35% of your paycheck (as if you were the only one).
First point – when I was in college, working summer jobs – I was losing even more than 35%, because tax rates were higher. It occured to me that you may not be aware of what the tax rates were before Ronald Reagan SLASHED THE SH** OUT OF THEM.
Do you have any idea what income tax rates were pre-Reagan?
June 1st, 2005 at 1:37 amOops didn’t mean to hit post. Let me tell a brief story of a conversation with “Karla”. A nice gal. She had already painted a fairly bleak financial picture of her circumstances, so when she demanded the government fund a bunch of “helping hand” ideas, I asked her how she expected everyone else to contribute to these wondrous solutions, while she sat back and accepted the handout.
She replied by golly she was a taxpayer too!! Further probing exposed that she had perhaps $500 or $1000 taken out of her check, but then she got a $2500 “refund” (as she called it)
I had to drag the info out of her, as she didn’t want to admit it. So then her story changed – she said that since the money had been withheld from her check (when she needed it) that she figured she paid the money in taxes (even though she got it all back and more)
So, Karla uses the same kind of reasoning you use. You had money taken from your check, but then got it back, and you still act as if you paid it in taxes, when you didn’t.
This is true for millions of people. Fact … the bottom twenty percent of Americans pay no income taxes. The next twenty percent pay LESS THAN NOTHING, because of tax credits.
These credits were designed to compensate this type of low income worker (especially with kids) for their FICA tax.
So the problem with your argument is that you are claiming these people are paying higher effective tax rates (because of FICA) but you are IGNORING the fact that millions of them are getting a $2500 to $3500 check to compensate them for it.
You can’t have it both ways Jay. I just want you to discuss this issue honestly.
You and others are claiming that poor folks are paying a high percentage of taxes. I want to know what numbers you are using SPECIFICALLY, and I want you to paint an honest picture.
June 1st, 2005 at 1:54 amJay, it occurs to me that this “Karla” person did nothing wrong. Maybe Buckshot doesn’t know how Ross Perot made his money. compared to Ross Perot’s “theft”, Karla is a rank amateur.
June 1st, 2005 at 6:20 amYou’ve overslept, Rip Van “Horatio Buckshot” Winkle, and the 20th century American dream you’ve been dreaming has turned the 21st century American nightmare. Even you concede that point. But the dream never existed. It was all a dream, the nightmare is very real.
June 1st, 2005 at 6:36 amJay, if you have never been to Mike Huben’s website, (he has a blog, now, too), you might enjoy it. He has been debating these people on the net since the early days, over 20 years now.
http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html
His Blog: http://critiquesoflibertarianism.blogspot.com/
I wish BS would engage Mike in debate. He won’t. He’s a coward.
June 1st, 2005 at 6:44 amPicture of Mike and David Freidman, Milton’s kid, who would laugh his ass off at Buckshot’s bigotted nonsense, and David’s no liberal or progressive.
http://world.std.com/~mhuben/ddfr.html
June 1st, 2005 at 6:47 amIf you go to this page
http://world.std.com/~mhuben/critfaq.html
Which are some criticisms of, and responses to Mike’s arguments (attacks on Mike in this one instance), and scroll down to the bottom of the page you will see this from someone using the nick, “Lazarus Long”. (Ayn Rand’s “John Galt” and Heinlein’s “Lazarus Long” are always popular nicks with these folks).
Huben’s FAS (Frequently Asserted Strawmen)
The link no longer goes anywhere. His opponent in this pissing match, which he usually tries to avoid, well…
“[4/13/99: "Prince Lazarus", age 67, given name Howard Turney, has been hit with an SEC restraining order for his New Utopia internet scam.]
These could be rebutted at greater length (indeed, they already have been in lengthy email to their authors pointing out their errors), but unless I get get many requests for rebuttals, I’ll spend the time developing further criticisms rather than being sidetracked.”
I’d love to see BS have it out with Mike. He’d be destroyed in 5 minutes or less.
June 1st, 2005 at 7:05 amObviously, Buckshot was savvy enough to not have one thin dime invested in Enron. He does have some sense.
Ken Lay shorted his stock holdings of the corporation while advising those lowly suckers he had suckered to keep buying more!
You don’t need to regulate anything. Let the business world continue pell mell into oblivion. Seems as though there is high profit potential in bilking the investor and worker both. Probably means that there is no profit whatsoever in the actual working of the business. “Don’t know how to make any money buying and selling energy. Don’t jack about it at all. We’ll just tell everybody we have everything under control, that everything is hunky dory and then screw them royally.” That’s about the gist of it.
Earned Income Credit really translates to the amount of money you were shorted throughout the year by your employer. Had the individual received a decent living wage, they wouldn’t need earned income credit.
When John Kerry’s wife has 650 million dollars, you know she didn’t invest in Enron. It was Walmart. The place where the poor people shop, the company store. So, really, the rich are profitting off of the poor and the government both.
It has got to be the most corrupt system in the history of the world.
June 1st, 2005 at 8:53 amIt is Ron, and unfortunatley, the masses could care less….they just have visions of McMansions and Hummers dancing in their heads…..souless and adrift….
June 1st, 2005 at 9:01 am#24
Good point there Ron, so let’s ask.
June 1st, 2005 at 9:15 amBuckshot, did you have any money invested in Enron when the shit hit the fan? If so, do you consider it a greater or lesser crime than tax-based handouts for kenny-boy and his friends to have ripped you off? If not, same question.
David B from another thread… I agree
Bullseye! Tight grouping at dead center mass.
I wondering why we keep encouraging buckshot, tony, and patriotic jesuit. These people are neocon plants to keep everyone diverted. Example; #13 b.s. comes out of the blue about taxes which has nothing to do with the posted blog about the relevence of the press and/or press conferences.
If we don’t engage these asshats with debate they’ll soon get tired for talking to themselves. Try it, see how long it takes them to leave for more conservative chatter.
Comment by David B
June 1st, 2005 at 9:53 amOk, God, you be the judge. I didn’t encourage Enron investors to buy Enron stock while I sold mine.
It is Ken Lay who had ten Mcmansions at ten million a pop. Just a teeny tiny speck in Ken’s eye. Not to worry.
You know, you are more than willing to spot the log in my eye.
You decide who is soulless and adrift.
I trust you’ll make the right call, since you’re calling the shots.
Anyway, thanks for the ad hominen.
The American god was in Waco raising hell. Some god. The American god needs to learn a thing or two about a thing or two.
June 1st, 2005 at 9:57 amI think the ? after God is an American means something. Not sure what exactly, Ron. But it’s gotta be rhetorical.
June 1st, 2005 at 10:02 amRon,
Yes, (ohh cynical one) our system is absolutely corrupt to the very core. As far as it being the “most corrupt”, now that may be a bit extreme.
As far as the lower rollers justifying their EITC by saying they weren’t paid enough in the first place, I’m used to hearing justification by people for accepting handouts.
On the other end, we hear justification from the Ken Lays of the world for their corruption.
And for those who put their faith in the church (or God) let me just say don’t leave your sons alone with them or they may learn what corruption is all about!
But before you start worshipping the masses of poor people, just remember they have no more morals than the rich. They will stand there with their hands out till the end of time, and they don’t give a da** where the profits came from.
June 1st, 2005 at 10:13 amThe ? was to be taken sardonically..XX
June 1st, 2005 at 10:34 amThe rich made it to the line first. The poor have to stand in line until the end of time because the rich grabbed it all to begin with.
You may one day have nothing, buckshot.
I’ve had nothing. No home, no money and not that many clothes on my back. You end up bathing in rivers, too.
I wasn’t asking for a handout from anybody. I’m not looking for someone’s pity nor am I intentionally trying to look pathetic, just the truth of the matter. I changed my circumstances. I didn’t go running to the government for some kind of help. Nor, did I run to Ken Lay. Neither one would be willing to help me out of my dilemma. The only thing that helped was work. That was what was necessary.
When it comes to the US gov, they’re expecting something from you, though. I know it all too well. When it comes to you expecting something from them, don’t count on too much. I am familiar with how they operate. I’ve seen where the real money really goes.
Let them take Prozac, Zoloft and Viagra, and at a handsome profit for the pharmaceutical corporations.
The US gov operates at the expense of America. They’re not their for you. You are foolish to think otherwise.
Communists, Nazis, Democrats, Republicans, whatever, it doesn’t matter, if you’re not with them, you’re an untermenschen, a meddlesome motley crew from the great unwashed.
Sorry for being such a cynical useless idiot.
My apologies to God, I hope I am forgiven.
June 1st, 2005 at 11:27 amAll apologies to God is an American?
June 1st, 2005 at 2:23 pmBuckshot:
You supplied no numbers on the European deficits. Why not save me the research time and jsut tell me which countries and hwo much, since you’ve already fone the research?
Are the Scandinavian countries in deficit to anywhere near the degree that we are?
If your point is that the shipment of jobs from developed countries to undeveloped countries is going to make it hard to have social programs, I couldn’t agree more. Especially if we’re going to try to police the world at the same time, and cut taxes for people who were born rich, and not even collect estate taxes from the richest of the rich.
June 1st, 2005 at 6:10 pmLee,
I have learned not to offer references, and here is why. In almost every case, either the reference is ignored, ridiculed, spun, or tied in with a conspiracy of some sort.
Case in point…. recently a fella suggested the poor were getting the shaft tax-wise. He stated that the rich were getting a free ride on the backs of the poor.
I offered the fact that the poor do not pay a single penny of income taxes. I offered the official IRS website, which lists all tax collections by income group.
He (at first) claimed the reference was a conspiracy of the right wing, or some such nonsense.
The way I look at it, Lee, you can look things up just as easily as I can. If you think Europe’s economies are humming along, with budgets in teh black, well you just go ahead and think it.
Your comment about cutting taxes for the rich is pure envy speaking. Perhaps you could spend that energy into bettering your own financial position, then you could help shoulder the burden for this society.
Or continue to blame others for your deficiencies – it matters not an iota to me.
I only offer my opinion – I find that industrious folks tend to be wealthy, while angry, envious people tend to be “in need”. It’s your choice – I’ve made mine and don’t plan to change.
June 1st, 2005 at 6:24 pmNo such thing was claimed, Lee. There is no other way to say it. Buckshot is “disassembling” like dear leader, but that is fairly obvious to most here. His general wingnuttiness is not in question anymore. The poster, I believe, was Jay, and I can tell you what we told Buckshot. We told him we did not accept anything supplied by this administration, in the case, the IRS website, at face value. With a few keystrokes I can find the thread, if you wish to see for yourself. Do you trust this administration?
He (at first) claimed the reference was a conspiracy of the right wing, or some such nonsense.
June 1st, 2005 at 7:07 pmI only offer my opinion – I find that industrious folks tend to be wealthy, while angry, envious people tend to be “in need”. It’s your choice – I’ve made mine and don’t plan to change.
It’s a religion, Lee. No… a cult.
June 1st, 2005 at 7:08 pmBuckshot won’t dare answer this question. Not from anyone.
Do women own their children?
They do, if you “believe” what he “believes”. And it is a “belief” system. Not unlike the “revealed religions” or cults.
Serious libertarian philosophers are hard to come by, and Robert Nozick is one of this rare breed. In Anarchy, State, and Utopia, he argues creatively and convincingly against the welfare state, taking a strong stance on the primacy of individual rights. And despite the fact that he has modified his ideological stance since the book’s publication in 1974, it remains a libertarian Bible. So it’s too bad that in one short chapter of Justice, Gender, and the Family, feminist Susan Moller Okin successfully eviscerates Nozick’s entitlement theory by demonstrating that it leads to absurd and unacceptable conclusions. If one accepts Nozick’s claim that one owns what one produces, then, according to Okin, women must own their children because they use their own resources–their bodies–to produce them. While her assertion that only women are capable of producing children is questionable (after all, men are an integral part of the reproductive process–both a sperm and an egg are required, and fathers have as much of a claim to ownership of their children as mothers), her overall argument is devastatingly effective. Underlying Okin’s critique is a recognition of the distinction between persons and human nonpersons–the former consisting of those whom Nozick believes possesses characteristics (such as rationality and the ability to plan one’s life) in virtue of which they are protected by moral side constraints, the latter being those humans without these characteristics, such as infants and the mentally disabled. While Nozick makes a strong case for his concern for the rights of persons, Okin reveals the violent clash of his theory with our intuitions if human nonpersons are ignored. Despite the pivotal role this distinction plays in Okin’s argument, however, she never directly addresses or explicates it. I intend, in this article, to elaborate on this dichotomy, describe how it contributes to Okin’s critique, and point out some of the potential shortcomings of expanding our discussion of rights to include all humans.
June 1st, 2005 at 7:15 pmRead the rest of Liz Wang’s Essay. Eventually Buckshot will go away. He will never change. It’s a cult, not a rational political philosophy.
http://criterion.uchicago.edu/issues/iv6/wang.html
June 1st, 2005 at 7:18 pmBuckshot won’t mention Nozick by name. He is probably smart enough to know he and his ideas has been refuted and discredited for years. Perhaps I am giving him the benefit of the doubt he does not merit.
June 1st, 2005 at 7:28 pmSJS is dead on there, the only thing that was disputed was your claim that the poor pay ZERO taxes. The IRS website, though it may be accurate, doesn’t remove rightful suspicion of EVERYTHINHG that the current admin makes available for public consumption. We’re talking about a cabal that creates propaganda news releases and distributes them to local media outlets to give their backwards ideas an air of credibility while ironically they’re doing exactly the opposite. No scruples, big lies, baffle em with bullshit.
June 1st, 2005 at 8:28 pmNo scruples, big lies, baffle em with bullshit.
Buckshot or Bush?
June 2nd, 2005 at 12:12 amJay,
If you dispute my claim (and IRS’s claim) that the poor pay zero income taxes, what evidence are you offering? Thin air? Feelings?
June 2nd, 2005 at 2:08 amhttp://www.itepnet.org/wp2000/ak%20pr.pdf
June 2nd, 2005 at 11:06 amOh and by the way, if you were concerned about partisanship, from their website:
The Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP) is a non-profit, non-partisan research and education organization that works on government taxation and spending policy issues. ITEP’s unique resources and capabilities enable it to provide policymakers, advocates, and the public with accurate, useful, and timely information regarding state and federal tax systems and how they affect taxpayers at different income levels.
June 2nd, 2005 at 11:11 amCome, O ye faithful! Listen to my truths! I come from the wilderness (Alaska), to bring peace and joy and freedom to the poor, down-trodden masses in the inner cities that I have never lived in and would be arrested in if I chopped down a single cherry-pickin’ tree! I would get the crap kicked out of me, too, by many brown-skinned poor folks who wanted to rob me of my birthright! That which is rightfully mine! So sayeth the Ayatollah Rand!
June 2nd, 2005 at 12:28 pmYou know, it occurs to me that with a few substitions, like “rich and poor” for “black and white” and a few others you can make if you are familiar with Charlie’s whacked out vision for Helter Skelter, Buckshot’s continual pre-apocalyptic doomsaying transaltes rather nicely. They are almost indistinguishable. Loon.
June 2nd, 2005 at 12:34 pm“Your comment about cutting taxes for the rich is pure envy speaking. Perhaps you could spend that energy into bettering your own financial position, then you could help shoulder the burden for this society.”
As I said in an earlier post in this thread, Buckshot, you suffer from major arrogance. Having already said that you don’t know me, you once again assume that you can tell my financial condition from my political opinions.
I think that says all I need to know about your opinions.
June 2nd, 2005 at 4:42 pmLee,
Everyone knows that progressive blogs are populated by angry, bitter, chainsmoking, overweight, uneducaated, gay and lesbian poor people of color, whose only hope is the weekly lotto drawing and 40oz of Colt .45. It’s in the Libertarian Bible.
June 2nd, 2005 at 8:13 pmEither that or latte-drinking, city-dwelling, limo driving, anti-gun, queer-loving, elitists. They can’t decide which fallacy stirs up the base more.
June 2nd, 2005 at 9:58 pmLOL! True. I don’t happen to fit either of those caricatures, but I’m sure some people in the Republican party do. In fact, I know it for a fact.
June 2nd, 2005 at 10:20 pmMe neither, just a guy trying to make ends meet, take care of the family and do the right thing. If only I could kick all those bad habits I’m sure it would lead me straight to a land of power-boats, Hummers, lear jets and a winter home in Tuscany (are we still allowed in Europe?) :)
SJS, seriously, the volunteer work you mention is noble, not everyone has the patience or the courage to do it. No wonder you’ve got a belly full of fire. Just keep channeling it into your polictical convictions!
June 2nd, 2005 at 10:46 pmIt’s easy to sit in your home and look at those people on TV and think they are lazy. It’s a different thing when you spend time among them. It’s too easy to make assumptions from the comfort of your Barcalounger. Some are folks who had a series of tough breaks. Some are borderline cases that can be set right with the proper programs properly funded. Some will never be more than throw away people in this current political and economic climate. It’s like a war zone. Reagan and his policies cut them loose from hospitals that used to house many of them. But some of those that may not a danger to themselves or others often cannot care for themselves. There is no easy solution. Anyone who thinks life is a shelter, even a state of the art new one, is a free ride, is plainly an idiot.
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