Breaking: Schiavo Was Blind, Frist’s Fraudulent Diagnosis
Breaking: Schiavo Was Blind, Frist’s Fraudulent Diagnosis
Freshly-released autopsy results reveal that Terri Schiavo was blind:
Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Jon Thogmartin concluded that…her brain was about half of normal size when she died. …
Thogmartin says her brain was “profoundly atrophied” — and that the damage was “irreversable.” He also says, “The vision centers of her brain were dead” — meaning she was blind.
Which makes Dr. Frist’s expert “diagnosis” all the more outrageous:
Bill Frist (R-Tenn.), a renowned heart surgeon before becoming Senate majority leader, went to the floor late Thursday night for the second time in 12 hours to argue that Florida doctors had erred in saying Terri Schiavo is in a “persistent vegetative state.”
“I question it based on a review of the video footage which I spent an hour or so looking at last night in my office,” he said in a lengthy speech in which he quoted medical texts and standards. “She certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli.”
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I am outraged at the Senate sideshow. They shoud reimburse the tax payer for their spectable as well as apoligize the the Mr. Shiavo.
June 15th, 2005 at 12:10 pmMaybe it was a good thing that Frist got out of the medical profession. He is with a good bunch now where he can screw up and never be found out
June 15th, 2005 at 12:13 pmMaybe the government will now stay out of people’s lives. Mr Schiavo deserves an apology which I’m sure he’ll never receive. It seems pretty obvious that Dr Frist doesn’t know a brain from a heart. Maybe it’s because he doesn’t have a soul.
June 15th, 2005 at 12:17 pmI guess that this just goes to show that she really was just a pawn in a political game… too bad for her family. I feel for them, and the family of Pat Tillman. I guess that we can conclude that our government really doesn’t care about real people, just the political capital gained from their misery… (but we knew that already!) yet another sad sad day for the US. But hey! At least Michael Jackson was aquitted! :(
June 15th, 2005 at 12:19 pmDr? Frist also thinks AIDS can be passed through tears.
June 15th, 2005 at 12:21 pmHey Frist, why don’t you go back to torturing kittens? You’ll do less harm that way.
June 15th, 2005 at 12:24 pmGotta disagree, the doctor? IS in the right profession now.
Doctors bury their mistakes, just like GOP warmongers.
June 15th, 2005 at 12:26 pmandrew wrote, …too bad for her family…
But her parents invited politics in when they willingly got the religious right involved.
June 15th, 2005 at 12:26 pmI refuse to call him Dr.Frist…torturing cats was
June 15th, 2005 at 12:27 pmnot his only sin….in Nashville his medical family,
was involved in Medicare fraud. I think we should sue both he and Delay…worthless men!
Hope Frist runs in 08…..they will most assuredly lose…..he represents the American Taliban….he’s another one who is part of the Bushie “culture of life”…..the absolute apex of hypocrisy……
June 15th, 2005 at 12:28 pmAh yes, Bill Frist, Mr. Tort Reform himself performed “witness malpractice.”
June 15th, 2005 at 12:30 pmShiavo Autopsy Results Partially in…
A portion of the long awaited Terri Schiavo autopsy result has finally come in and wouldn’t you know it,
Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Jon Thogmartin concluded that…her brain was about half of normal size when she died.
Thogmartin s…
June 15th, 2005 at 12:31 pmCreationist neuroscience!
June 15th, 2005 at 12:33 pmQuestion: If this ass hole was still practicing, would you want him operating on your or yours?
June 15th, 2005 at 12:34 pmAnyone know why Frist is considered “renowned”? The media seems to buy this characterization. What is the basis for it?
June 15th, 2005 at 12:39 pmD’oh!
June 15th, 2005 at 12:47 pmAn autopsy released today found no evidence to contradict the diagnosis that Terri Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state after her 1990 collapse, backing up her husband’s contention that
“Question: If this ass hole was still practicing, would you want him operating on your or yours?”
Only if “you and yours” included W, Cheney, Rove – but NOT anyone I love. Or even like a little.
June 15th, 2005 at 12:47 pmDon’t be giving my son so much grief. Diagnoses like this are very hard to make. Just because someone’s brain is only half normal size doesn’t mean they are braindead. After all, just look at the current presidunce of the U.S. . . . . . . . . . . uh-oh . . . . . never mind!
June 15th, 2005 at 12:53 pmDr. Frist Sr. beat me to the punch – of course the right thought that Ms Schiavo would eventually ‘recover.’ They are used to dealing with people with brain’s at half the normal size.
June 15th, 2005 at 1:02 pm“Listen, diagnose and fix.” – Dr. Frist
Everybody makes mistakes, even doctors. However, his blind obedience to his dogma clouds his ability to properly perform his job. He looks like a quack this time around. Some doctors have no communication skills. No ‘bedside manner’ so to speak.
I also question the validity of the autospy results, though. Go without water or food for 13 days and see what you look like. They could have at least given her water in her last days.
It was an extremely cruel act to deny her anything at all. It is as inhumane as it can get. Torture is what it was.
You had better hope it doesn’t happen to you.
June 15th, 2005 at 1:03 pmWhat a great campaign commercial that will make! He can’t use the footage himself because it makes him look like a quack, but the opposition can use it! I can see it now “She certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli.” Cut to ME saying “She was blind, her brain was half the size of a normal one, no amount of therapy could regenerate the dead neurons, etc”, cut back to Frist “I think the doctors in Florida were wrong.” Announcer says “And he wants to be President of the United States?”
June 15th, 2005 at 1:03 pmThis just reconfirms that the Republicans who went along with Frist are in a persistant vegetative state. Frist should lose his medical license for this.
June 15th, 2005 at 1:07 pmHow does one go about getting a license to practice medicine revoked? And where does one go?
June 15th, 2005 at 1:08 pmEveryone needs to go over to Hannity.com and leave a comment for Sean. Sean was the “champion” of the Schindler’s and was PERSONALLY responsible for spewing those libelous accusations of abuse for OVER A YEAR. Sean needs at least 100,000 comments on this.
http://www.hannity.com/index/contact-form
June 15th, 2005 at 1:13 pmIt was a “faith based” diagnosis. God told him. That’s why he ignored the CAT scan that showed, prior to the feeding tube being removed, that she only had about one half of her brain.
June 15th, 2005 at 1:13 pmSchiavo autopsy vindicates husband, impugns Frist
June 15th, 2005 at 1:14 pmNo surprises here. Terri Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state, Michael Schiavo didn’t beat her, Nat Hentoff is a crackpot, and Bill Frist is a demagogic quack. Schiavo’s Brain Was Severely Deteriorated, Autopsy SaysBy THE ASSOCIATED PRESSFile…
How many other Repukes do you suppose will “question the validity of the autopsy results,” a la RonCo above?
June 15th, 2005 at 1:28 pmThis confirms that Frist may have been right – if a brain dead (and/or morally bankrupt) person can become the leader of the US Senate… maybe there was hope Terry.
June 15th, 2005 at 1:32 pmThink Progress » Breaking: Schiavo Was Blind, Frist’s Fraudulent Diagnosis
Think Progress » Breaking: Schiavo Was Blind, Frist’s Fraudulent Diagnosis
Freshly-released autopsy results reveal that Terri Shiavo was blind:
Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Jon Thogmartin concluded that…her brain was about half of nor…
June 15th, 2005 at 1:38 pmAs a physician, I feel obliged to record my disdain for Wm. Frist who has shown himself to be a buffoon in pursuit of his ideological agenda. Some doctor!
June 15th, 2005 at 1:40 pmRenowned DiagnoseByFilm Expert on All Subjects, Including But Not Limited to Politics, Medicine and Morality Bill Frist, mistook Terri Schiavo’s persistent vegetative state with the potential for political exploitation.
June 15th, 2005 at 1:45 pmWhat more can you expect from folks like Ron? The facts don’t fit their perspective, so come up with new facts that do.
June 15th, 2005 at 1:46 pmSmorgasbord 11: Moonraker
I’m officially out of movie franchise titles. Where will I go next? No idea.
Dean was right.
June 15th, 2005 at 1:50 pmOf 3,643 Republicans serving in state legislatures across the country, only 44 of them are minorities, amounting to 1.2%. Texas, with a minority populatio…
Smorgasbord 11: Moonraker
I’m officially out of movie franchise titles. Where will I go next? No idea.
Dean was right.
June 15th, 2005 at 1:50 pmOf 3,643 Republicans serving in state legislatures across the country, only 44 of them are minorities, amounting to 1.2%. Texas, with a minority populatio…
Frist is as good a doctor as he is a Majority Leader.
June 15th, 2005 at 1:59 pmOnly morons would support the “pro-life” movement. When a person persisits in a vegitatiev state, all potential for spiritual growth is lost. In this camatose state, the body breaks down, life becomes robotic. In any case did we have to STARVE her to death. Even criminals are dispatched off in a more humane manner.
June 15th, 2005 at 2:04 pmhttp://www.downingstreetmemo.com
facts were fixed to take USA to war. that URL provides proof.
June 15th, 2005 at 2:08 pmI do not vote Republican, nor do I vote Democrat. The party I vote for has nothing to do with how she died.
I can still question the validity of the autopsy results. Go without water for a day. Your mind begins to get fuzzy. Your brain needs water and the demand for water by your system becomes apparent without fail. Your brain needs it the most. It will begin to shrivel first. The brain is an organ, just like your stomach, heart or lungs.
She was denied water from the time the feeding tube was removed and for thirteen days afterwards until her death. Every part of her body is going to lose water.
If you have ever gone without food for a period of days, you will begin to lose weight. Your body begins to ‘consume’ itself. She was in a vegetative state, no doubt about it. Did it mean that she should die the way that she did? No. It was a cruel act to do what was done to her, and there ain’t no two ways about it.
Diss me all you want, but what was done to her should have never been done by anybody. An ice flow would have been an act of mercy compared to what happened to her.
And, yes I have. I have fasted for 17 days. You will learn a lot about yourself and how your mind reacts to the absence of nourishment. Try it sometime before you shoot from the hip.
June 15th, 2005 at 2:09 pmCan we get his license revoked for this? Is he still a licensed medical doctor?
It would be a fun media spectacle if he lost his license or was reprimanded for this. The media does a terrible job of going back and reminding us what these asshats said in the context of what the truth actually was. I think if procedings were to take place to get his license revoked this story would get attention.
June 15th, 2005 at 2:09 pmWith all due respect, Ron, the difference between you fasting for 17 days and Terri Schiavo is that I assume you have higher brain functioning. Terri didn’t.
Although it is easy to project your own sense of “fasting” on to it, but without those receptors functioning, Terri was incapable of feeling pain, hunger, or anything at all.
Was it the most humane way to die? Perhaps not, but blame the politicians and their “culture of life” ticket that does not allow terminal patients or their legally designated loved ones to make this decision. My grandfather was in a PVS and we allowed him to die as would have been his wishes. Would I have preferred that we just gave him a humane shot that allowed him to go to sleep peacefully, rather than watch his physical body waste away? Yes, but that wasn’t a legal option for us.
June 15th, 2005 at 2:20 pmHey Doc Frist, where have all your old patients gone now that we know your diagnositic intellect is so wrong, crematoriums or cemeteries?
June 15th, 2005 at 2:20 pmComment by Ron  June 15th, 2005 @ 2:09 pm
Yes, the lack of water could have shriveled her brain some before she died. However, MRI scans taken prior to removal of the tubes showed the the brain was already diminished in size.
I agree with RoyaRas that there were no other more humane options open. The law states you have a right to die, but nobody has the right to help you along. Maybe this is where your angst should be directed.
June 15th, 2005 at 2:27 pmPaging Dr. Frist
June 15th, 2005 at 2:28 pmSo once again the religious right was out of touch with reality: In a victory for Michael Schiavo, a coroner who performed an autopsy on Terri Schiavo reported Wednesday that she suffered from an irreversible brain injury and would not…
I don’t suppose the so-called mainstream media will spend a moment reporting these autopsy results.
June 15th, 2005 at 2:32 pmTo Ron and the fasting comment: I would not question the autopsy results based on the fact that you have fasted yourself. What is your scientific background? I myself am a PhD student in neuroscience, particularly in functional imaging so I feel that I can comment on this appropriately. When your brain is deprived of oxygen (as her brain was when she collapsed), your neurons begin to die in the area that is deprived, and this happens rather quickly. They cannot be regenerated. It was not caused by lack of water or nutrients. Not that much damage. Plus, she had a scan after she initially collapsed that showed the damage. Dehydration was not responsible in that case. I think in this case we should just understand that the science is correct.
June 15th, 2005 at 2:33 pmYou have to remember that when you fast, you are a conscious person with a normal brain. Terri Schiavo was not cognitive nor did she have a normal brain. There is really no comparison there.
No wonder the GOP is so hell bent on tort reform– they want to protect Frist from lawsuits based on faulty diagnoses.
June 15th, 2005 at 2:36 pmFrist, please, pleeeease run in -08. You and your little ghost kitties…pleeease.
Everybody — please don’t let what happened to Teri Schiavo happen to you. Get your Living Will and Durable Power of Attorney done TODAY. I know Suze Orman has current documents for every state on her website and they are FREE. All you might need is a Notary, and your bank will usually have one. None of you has any reason not to do it now, save yourselves and your families from the circus that poor woman and her family went through.
June 15th, 2005 at 2:36 pmWhen Frist leaves the senate, I think his talents would best be served as the Bush family’s private doctor.
June 15th, 2005 at 2:36 pmWhy do politicians think that they know more about medicine than (real) doctors?
Why do they think they know more about women’s bodies than women?
Why do they think they know more about science than (mad) scientists?
Why do they think they know more about education than educators?
Why do they think they know more about the tastes of Americans than Americans?
I could go on. The truth is all the politicians know about is greed, corruption, and a lust for power. Led by Bush.
So when they examine Frist’s brain, what percentage of normal do you think they will find?
June 15th, 2005 at 2:48 pmOne question: How the hell do they get away with lies, deceptions etc
One answer: When an autopsy if performed on a democracy, it is the absence of an honset news media that is the culprit
June 15th, 2005 at 2:49 pm“She certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli”
Makes me glad that Bill Frist isn’t my family physician. Although it doesn’t exclude the possibility of a spontaenous miracle: holy, demonic, or otherwise.
The results of Terri Schiavo’s autopsy are in, and they make one Senate Majority Leader …
June 15th, 2005 at 2:52 pmLike I said: I question the validity. I didn’t say I wouldn’t accept them. Read my words. If they are valid, then fine. I’ll accept them. Her brain atrophied from lack of oxygen and not water deprivation for her last thirteen days of life, so be it. It became vestigial and that’ that.
She could have been given water to ease her suffering. I wouldn’t wish what happened to her on my worst enemy. Gitmo detainees are given food and water, ferkrissakes.
June 15th, 2005 at 3:00 pmI’ve already made my intentions clear to my family. If I go into a PVS, I want half the family to take one side, half the other. I don’t care which half, the important thing to me is that there is a media circus. My durable power of attorney specifically requests my contorted face be plastered all over the evening news. If they roll my drooling shell of a body before congress to testify, you know Fox News will be all over it.
And I want my medical desicions made by a retired doctor whose only examination is watching a video.
June 15th, 2005 at 3:02 pmi find this infuriating. this poor woman and her husband AND her family were so obviously used and put in the middle of other people’s agendas. frist is a liar and i find it disgusting.
June 15th, 2005 at 3:05 pmMy my Ron, are you suggesting that we should have used “lethal injection” on Schavio? I’m sure that would have gone over really well with the pro life folks.
June 15th, 2005 at 3:06 pm“I can still question the validity of the autopsy results.”
On what basis? Do you have a background in pathology, or another pertinent medical field? Were you there when the autopsy was performed? Have you personally reviewed in an exhaustive fashion the charts, studies and records as did the ME?
You concede she was in a vegetative state; and that half of her brain was gone, yet you believe you can question the “validity” of the autopsy? Based on what? half baked theocratic tripe? Right wing demagoguery?
“Every part of her body is going to lose water.”
No shit, sherlock. However, the loss of water has no correlation to the death of brain tissue noted in every study of this poor person’s body taken long before artificial life sustaining measures were suspended.
And finally, what business was this of yours and the rest of the religious right, including Dumbya and the congressional Resmuglicans, anyway? What makes you believe you have the right to interject you views and opinions into the personal medical decisions of other people?
Did you get my consent before fasting?
June 15th, 2005 at 3:06 pmI wonder if he could be sued for malpractice for that statement . . . given that he was obviously offering that opinion as a Doctor . . .
June 15th, 2005 at 3:08 pmI am so glad that Arianna has given you bitter people a place to commiserate since the repeated thumping McAuliffe & Co. have guided your tribe through at the polls. I bet the psych science field has noticed a marked fall in business since May 9, 2005.
June 15th, 2005 at 3:37 pmJust a FYI:
In the mammalian visual system, there are two pathways, the thalamocortical system (the one dead here, with the visual cortex having disslolved into goo), and the superior collicular system. The collicular system is in the brainstem (the superior collicular nuclei are two bumps on top of the tectum, part of the brainstem). The superior collicular system seems to be involved more in processing of motion and position, while the thalamocortical systems is involved in pattern vision.
So it is possible that brainstem visual processes might result in “following”, but it’s likely of a reflexive nature. And the more complete analysis by examining physicians showed no apparent purposeful attentive behaviour.
That said, Frist is still a dork.
Cheers,
June 15th, 2005 at 3:46 pmRemember how Republicans used to whine like little girls during the Clinton years? Those days will return. They couldn’t make things any easier for us.
And Ron, you can question the validity all you want. I question the validity of gravity. It doesn’t change a single fact. Your question says more about your knowledge than the doctors’ competency to diagnose.
June 15th, 2005 at 3:53 pmShame is not very popular in DC
June 15th, 2005 at 3:54 pmshameful behavior sure is
June 15th, 2005 at 3:55 pmRon: She could have been given water to ease her suffering. I wouldn’t wish what happened to her on my worst enemy. Gitmo detainees are given food and water, ferkrissakes.
Me: The primary definition of “to suffer” is to endure pain or hardship. Terri Schiavo couldn’t feel anything, let alone pain, ergo she could not suffer.
I, too, would not wish what happened to her, any part of it, from collapse to media circus, upon anyone, even people I don’t like so much. The end of her life was so appalling because the “culture of life”rs inserted themselves into this private and personal issue, and turned it into a media circus. Republicans say they’re all about a smaller and less intrusive government, but with this admin it won’t be intrusive as long as it fits into their agenda. If you’re gay, they’ll intrude. If you want an abortion, they’ll intrude. If you want to die with dignity (or if your loved ones want that for you), they’ll intrude.
And come on, do you *really* want to hold up *Gitmo detainees* as the paragon on how people with PVS should be treated? Should they have mopped a urine-soaked floor with Terri Schiavo? Would that make you feel better?
June 15th, 2005 at 4:01 pmmoRon, did I ask for your opinion?
No.
Next time, wait until I do so.
What is wrong with questioning the validity of an autopsy of someone who has died? How about Vincent Foster’s autopsy? Are there questions into the cause of his death? NOBODY should question the circumstances surrounding his death? How about all of the microbiologists that have been dying around the globe? The one that committed suicide in England, nobody should question how he died? He just up and killed himself. Nobody should question how they died?
Like I say, everybody makes mistakes. Seems as though being unforgiving is one that is being made right here.
Quit being so freaking arrogant.
Some here have no problem questioning Dr. Frist’s credentials, but unquestionably accept the results of the autopsy of Terry Schiavo’s. Find a clue.
I do have a science background, but so what? What good does it do here?
Glad I don’t vote Republican or Democrat. You’re all sleeping.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:16 pmWow! We do have alot of folks who read this blog. That’s good! Wecome, all.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:17 pmWhen you consider that people who think like this might be considered brain dead, you know why they fought so hard for Terri. They are afraid someone might figure it out and pull their feeding tubes.
I am so glad that Arianna has given you bitter people a place to commiserate since the repeated thumping McAuliffe & Co. have guided your tribe through at the polls. I bet the psych science field has noticed a marked fall in business since May 9, 2005.
Comment by Matt  June 15th, 2005 @ 3:37 pm
June 15th, 2005 at 4:21 pmDr. Frist,
June 15th, 2005 at 4:24 pmI was an ex-patient of yours while you were a medical doctor. You diagnosed me as being alive and healthy, but unfortunately my heart was totally atrophied, and no more active more than a cold cat cadaver.
What surprised me is that you used my body to provide audience background for Mr. Bush when he was visiting my hometown to discuss Social Security.
classic fear of death. persist in a vegitative state rather than die…..i’m glad my lawyer has my will so W and his band of idiots will never keep me alive, and allow others who have a chance to die
June 15th, 2005 at 4:24 pmSleep is necessary for life, Ron. Everyone sleeps. It’s those people who remain asleep even in the supposed waking state that you have to worry about. That could be you.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:25 pmAnd, don’t forget the Swift Boat Nurses.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:27 pmMatt- I wouldn’t say that “our” side is bitter; I think disgusted, perplexed, incredulous, and, most importantly, sad by what has transpired in the last several years (it just seems like decades). I realize that your side is in power, regardless of the unethical, immoral and illegal means they used to gain it; the Schiavo case is just another example of how the Republican party will do whatever it takes to deceive, obfuscate, and distort any issue for political gain. I must congratulate the current administration for killing the apathy I once possessed and awakening a desire in me to see this band of criminals thrown out on their ears.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:29 pmP.S. Has anybody seen the media? If so, please have them report to D.C.,
For the record, I cannot side with christian conservatives or any part of the moral right. As a idealist libertarian, I am deeply troubled by the right’s recently increased intrustion into our lives. But, that being said, I am still always more alienated by the historic big brother metality of the left. (Probably more than you cared to know).
June 15th, 2005 at 4:34 pm“Oops”- Senator Bill Frist. “Oh well, Terri’s ex wasn’t going to vote for me when I run for POTUS anyway.”
June 15th, 2005 at 4:34 pmSo far, the media has keyed in on only the fact that her eating disorder doesn’t seem to be the cause of her (then) state. This gives the “husband-haters” a conspiract theory to cling to.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:35 pmMatt’s more turned of by the big brother menastlity of the left. great point in this context.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:35 pmcould be. could be you, too. Let me know when I’m brain dead, for I surely won’t know. Neither will you.
I have worked with some of the most feeble-minded people you will ever encounter. They didn’t have a lick of sense. Some needed meds all of the time, but nobody suggested to kill them. They had a will to live just like any other ordinary person alive. They couldn’t count to twenty. Didn’t know if where they were half of the time, but they loved life. Their brains were cuckoo, but they were happy; that is what counted. I controlled their waking and sleeping hours, but I didn’t want any of them to die, even if they were halfwits. They needed 24 hour care and got it, otherwise, they couldn’t make it on their own. It’s called compassion. Get a clue. Wake up.
Stop voting for Democrats, too. They’re just as bad as Republicans. We can do without both parties, America will survive without them. With the way they have handled the government the past 50 years or so, we’re on a hellbound train with them in charge. It should be quite obvious by now.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:36 pmWe can do without both parties, America will survive without them.
????
June 15th, 2005 at 4:44 pmLesser of two evils I suppose, but more than a snowball’s chance in Hell like the Green Party/Lib. Party/etc.
I am glad I was never under Dr. Frist’s care in his previous career.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:45 pmi will always stand for a culture of lies… oh, i mean ‘life’.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:45 pmLast night, I made a salad. Where was the outrage from the GOP? I killed a head of lettuce, a carrot, a cucumber, and a tomato. All of them were in a Permanent Vegative State.
Bad joke. Sorry ;-)
June 15th, 2005 at 4:48 pmJust remember whose given us the Patriot act. If that ain’t Big Brother I’m not sure what is. I’d worry less about the historic intrusions of the left and more about the current abuses by the right
June 15th, 2005 at 4:48 pmI reported this medical fraud to the Tennessee Department of Health. They sent me a letter and said that he didn’t do anything wrong. In addition to being a medica fraud, his finances that won him the Senate seat came from his father and brother who started Columbia/HCA which plead guilty to 888 million dollars of Medicare fraud about five years ago. What a bunch of manure this man is.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:50 pmTennesse was probably glad to get rid of him.
Please note my intentional use of the word “historical.”
I have at no time in this thread defended Frist or any of his mates on the issue. What I find most interesting is that the Dems can’t seem to put their act together on any of the numerous salient points available to them. When will the Washington Generals stop falling for the same Globetrotter tricks? Come on, dems, change the discourse, quit fighting on Repub ground.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:50 pmDoes the Repubilcans in the White House and Congress qualify is brain-dead? Terri Schaivo could run the country better than them, and she was brain-dead.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:53 pmPosit: The common, core values Americans share are more important to the electorate than the divisive ones thrust upon us by the parties. Clinton knew this. When will they get it again?
June 15th, 2005 at 4:53 pmPosit: The common, core values Americans share are more important to the electorate than the divisive ones thrust upon us by the parties. Clinton knew this. When will they get it again?
June 15th, 2005 at 4:53 pmbig brother mentality of the left?? please tune into FOX news Matt
June 15th, 2005 at 4:55 pmStop voting for Democrats, too. They’re just as bad as Republicans. We can do without both parties, America will survive without them. With the way they have handled the government the past 50 years or so, we’re on a hellbound train with them in charge. It should be quite obvious by now.
Your blind acceptance of these “labels” tells me you may be blind, if not awake. Most of our so-called “Republicans” are so far to the right of Eisenhower, even Barry Goldwater recognized they weren’t Republicans. What you call Democrats are just Eisenhower Republicans, or real conservatives. You need to wake up, Ron.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:56 pmI’m impressed that the EMS people that came to revive Teri never bothered to find out her cause of cardiac failure and that Michael Schiavo didn’t know his wife was brain dead for 6 years since the doctors that botched her resuscitation had to cover their ass by lying about Teri’s condition to Michael. Mr. Frist should be right proud to protect his fellow scumbag doctors.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:56 pmTerri Sciavo’s response to visual stimuli can now take its place alongside Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction in the gallery of shameless Rebublican whoppers.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:57 pmRight now, the left has no mentality. All they can ever do is react. Eventuality their passivity will win them enough points to overcome the right’s constant missteps.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:57 pmLet me know what a “core common value” is.
June 15th, 2005 at 4:58 pmJust wait, Julius. Terri will rise from the dead soon and be the second coming and you can go with the wingnuts on the mothership. The end times are here! Rapture! Hallelujah!
June 15th, 2005 at 5:00 pmRight now, the left has no mentality. All they can ever do is react. Eventuality their passivity will win them enough points to overcome the right’s constant missteps.
Mentality? Maybe we are all mentalists. I am getting a, ah… M! I see a, ah…A! T! Your name is… Martha!
June 15th, 2005 at 5:03 pmcommon core value: truth, justice and peace.
June 15th, 2005 at 5:04 pmIt’s easier to sit back and potshot, isn’t it? Very brave of you, Auntie. Plus, it avoids having to say (or think) much.
June 15th, 2005 at 5:06 pmGee… sounds like Frist’s brain is about 1/2 the size of a normal human being. It must have something to do with the Repugnikan mentality.
June 15th, 2005 at 5:17 pmFrist must want to be President real bad, even when he is proven wrong he still thinks he is right. This makes him a real magic man indeed, first a video diagnossis it must be great never having to say, “I was wrong.” No, not Frist, he is a veritable god of video diagnosis in a field that he isn’t an expert in. I wonder does he do healings by mail?
The sad part of this whole thing is that Terry’s parents don’t believe that the doctors who performed the autopsy came up with the right answer. I fear that they have been brain washed by the likes of Frist and others of his ilk.
June 15th, 2005 at 5:24 pm“Maybe the government will now stay out of people’s lives.”
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!
June 15th, 2005 at 5:34 pmYes, that’s what he said. “She certainly seems to respond…” Outrageous. Hang him by his testicles. Rip out his thumbnails. Expell, expunge and exfoliate him! My God–the man is an abomination!
Your molehill still seems to be a molehill to me.
June 15th, 2005 at 5:35 pmNow Terri Schaivo’s parents say they don’t accept the findings in the autopsy and still believe Terri was responsive. Which raises again the question a friend of mine asked months ago, “If Terri’s parents love her so much, why didn’t they fix her hair and makeup before they made those videos?”
June 15th, 2005 at 5:39 pmEVENING ROUNDUP
CORRUPT STEVENS. Kevin Drum with a run-down on the latest corrupt member of the GOP: Alaska Senator Ted Stevens. Rel
June 15th, 2005 at 5:48 pmwill the current blog etiquette person kindy advise on the following statement, and it’s correctness or incorrectness, posted above by Ron:
“moRon, did I ask for your opinion?
No.
Next time, wait until I do so.”
thanks, evie
June 15th, 2005 at 6:07 pmRon, the fact is, you can’t furnish one scintilla of evidence that the autopsy results are in question or can legitimately be questioned. You tacitly suggest that the removal of the feeding tube caused Schiavo’s brain to atrophy when in fact, there is no such connection medically or logically. The atrophy of Schiavo’s brain occurred over a long, long period of time. She was blind — that also didn’t occur in the last weeks of her life. Henceforth, until and unless you furnish any credible evidence, facts or even a reasonable argument supported by reasonable inference and not just wishful thinking, I will regard you as a troll.
June 15th, 2005 at 6:13 pmI suggest that everyone do what I did when I heard about “Dr.” Bill’s diagnosis – write to the State of Tennessee, and file a complaint against Bill. If my doctor went around making wild pronouncements about things he didn’t understand, I’d file a complaint against him, too, before he hurt others. Bill’s diagnosis went against his medical training, and against his hippocratic oath. His actions actually caused pain, and he should pay with his medical licence.
June 15th, 2005 at 6:15 pmThat’s funny Marblex, Freerepublic booted me for the same reason, they called me a troll. It was just my liberal viewpoint that they didn’t like, but they really didn’t say it that way.
You just don’t like independent, free thinking people, that’s all. You want people to toe the party line and if they don’t, you regard them as a troll. Much like the web administration at Freerepublic.
If I ‘tell it like it is’ and not how you want to hear it, then it’s the work of a troll, isn’t that right?
I have already stated that I questioned the validity, but could accept the results if they were in fact verifiable. You want to ignore that and launch an ad hominen. Then, you add your senseless bickering along with it all. I have ignored all of your posts here, but I won’t go as far as to call anyone a troll. I never have and I never will. It is just plain dumb to do so.
You can say anything you darn well please. Calling someone a troll is a bit Orwellian. The ‘two minutes of hate’ is your bag. You can do it all you want.
Hate rules these days. Left wing propaganda, right wing propaganda, both sides love it.
June 15th, 2005 at 7:00 pmAs a physician, I am disgusted with Bill Frist. He disagreed with several neurologists, all who performed an actual neurological exam, as taught in medical school. He could not have performed an exam through video tape. This is worse than bad medicine. It is total negligance. He may have been in med school, but has been hanging around the anti-science, anti-logic GOP/Bush administration types for too long.
June 15th, 2005 at 7:38 pmFree thinking is fine, Ron. When the sane people are back in charge, or even the less crazy ones, then you will make some sense. Right now all you are doing is acting like an ,agent provateur and that’s not the same as a troll, not really. I hate the enemy here at home. If you think love will defeat this enemy, you should have left with the mothership. They ain’t coming back.
June 15th, 2005 at 7:39 pmDr. Frist is not a bad person. Rove and company have duped him into believing he would be a viable presidential candidate. Blinded by presidential ambition he has discredited himself as a physician, as a statesman, and as a decent human being. He has done much to harm this country and when his term expires Rove, Bush, Cheney and the others will drop him flat. They are already setting him up for failure. It is sad because he cound have done much good.
June 15th, 2005 at 7:43 pmLet me get this straight, Ron — you think the diagnosis of Bill Frist, who watched a highlight videotape of Terri Schaivo, should be given the same weight of the report of the coroner who actually cut up Terri Schaivo? Because if that isn’t so, you’re not a free thinker, Ron, your a freaking idiot.
June 15th, 2005 at 8:02 pmJon Thogmartin… the Medical Examiner that performed the autopsy… has contributed money to assorted democrats running for assorted offices. What does THAT tell you??? This man has an agenda!!! Obviously, he’s out to embarrass the good Dr. Frist… a man hell-bent on helping all humankind.
June 15th, 2005 at 8:03 pmFirst, let’s keep Ron. Humor helps us all in these times and if Ron was booted from frerepublic as he says then we may not want him wandering around “loose.”
June 15th, 2005 at 8:06 pm2nd: I may not be up on my George Orwell readings, but did he write about trolls? Would he call Dr. Frist a troll?
What do you have against trolls, anyway? Trolls are people too.
So, keep on bloggering, Ron, you old troll, we need you.
Here is what I wrote:
“Everybody makes mistakes, even doctors. However, his blind obedience to his dogma clouds his ability to properly perform his job. He looks like a quack this time around. Some doctors have no communication skills. No ‘bedside manner’ so to speak.”
Call me a troll and an idiot, I don’t mind at all. I’ve been called worse. If I speak and make a fool of myself, I’m willing to admit it. You don’t have to keep me. Turn me into a pariah, for all I care. I dare to speak out and roll with punches. I can take the hate and scorn. I’ve heard it all.
I condemned those who withheld food and water from Terry Schiavo. I said it was cruel to do so. Nobody listens, you just read what can be criticized and react with derision.
I’ll do what it takes, if it takes being made a fool to defend a defenseless human being, I’ll do it.
She didn’t deserve to live a useless life like she had. It is too bad what happened to her. She also didn’t deserve to die such a death. That is what I stated from the getgo. Listen. Now, you can all chop me down again.
A doctor in my hometown bought a car at a local dealership and questioned the salesman about what could be done if the car was a lemon. The salesman asked him, “What do you do with your mistakes?”
The doctor tersely replied, “I bury them.”
Everybody makes mistakes. I’m sorry if I do. I’ll admit it. So should you.
June 15th, 2005 at 8:26 pmRon I agree sincerely that withholding of food and water was cruel. Euthanasia should have been applied, stat, rather than prolong the suffering.
June 15th, 2005 at 8:27 pm114 comments before me, great distraction from the important issues, again.
June 15th, 2005 at 8:35 pmYou are correct, Susan, but some find this issue important. In the sense that we should all be allowed to determine for ourselves the fashion, place and time of our death if we wish to, I think it is an important debate, but it’s not as critical as what else is going on.
Ron, if you are a person who believes in the death with dignity movement, fine. If not, you are probably slipping thru the cracks here like you did at Freep. Euthanasia and slippery slope arguments aside, Terri should have had a living will. All things being equal, we went with her wishes to the best of all the courts involved previous findings. What you keep missing, or trying to debate, is that she was alive. She wasn’t. She died years ago.
She didn’t deserve to live a useless life like she had. It is too bad what happened to her. She also didn’t deserve to die such a death. That is what I stated from the getgo. Listen. Now, you can all chop me down again.
June 15th, 2005 at 8:57 pmThis is the kind of diagnosis one would expect from a witch-doctor, but what can we expect when science is readily trounced by the “people of faith” and those pandering to them. This bunch never admits a mistake, but if there were justice here, every congressperson along with Bush should publicly (meaning televised) apologize to Michael Schiavo for besmirching his character and for putting their collective noses into private affairs where they do not belong.
June 15th, 2005 at 9:10 pmThe Schiavo case was sick….but about Pat Tillman, I’m sorry for his family but in both cases, especially Tillman’s, I was really sickened by the way the press made a “hero” out of him, while all of the other soldiers killed in this very wrong war receive no attention. I don’t see where Tillman deserves such accolades.
June 15th, 2005 at 9:13 pmI have seen too many people die from cancer to know that doctors are in it for the money. After the loved one has died, the doctor no longer has an interest in the case. He, along with all of the oncologists, did what they ‘could.’ What they did was kill them with ‘treatment’, chemotherapy, radioactive implants, ad nauseum until the suffering became unbearable. The living dead was a cash cow for the medical community.
You watch in horror and disbelief at what is happening and you feel helpless.
I don’t need lecturing, a patronizing attitude nor condescending heartless remarks. I’ve heard enough of that from unconcerned doctors who have an arrogance that can’t be matched by anyone hear. I’ve had enough of their ‘expertise.’ It doesn’t work and the deaths of three relatives are plenty of proof.
You know what is going to happen, it is no secret. You feel used and taken advantage of by their predations. It isn’t medicine, it’s ‘health care business.’ It doesn’t fly with me anymore. I’ll go without that kind of medical ‘care.’
Death with dignity? Not if you have cancer.
June 15th, 2005 at 9:17 pm“I’ve heard enough of that from unconcerned doctors who have an arrogance that can’t be matched by anyone hear.” oops
‘anyone here’
June 15th, 2005 at 9:28 pmI note that 14 days of dehydration can shrink a brain, as the brain is 90 percent water. To what degree did the fact that she was denied water for 14 days contribute to the brain loss? That question is not being asked.
June 15th, 2005 at 9:57 pmVito and Ron need to get together.
June 15th, 2005 at 10:06 pmLet’s see: a brain shrunk to half size and blind to boot. So the results of Bill Frist’s physical came in. No surprises there. But what about Terri Schiavo?
June 15th, 2005 at 10:09 pmWell, don’t forget that Frist is from Tennessee and they are all inbred down there.
June 15th, 2005 at 10:42 pm“Although destruction of the “visual cortex” of the brain had left Schiavo blind, it is remotely possible she could have responded to some visual stimuli through a strange phenomenon known as “blindsight.” In that condition, people who have no conscious vision sometimes can direct their eyes toward bright or moving objects because the nerve pathways leading from the eye are intact, even though the destination of those pathways is destroyed.”
-Washington Post
June 15th, 2005 at 10:55 pmBut he did stay at a Holiday Inn
June 15th, 2005 at 10:57 pmTerri Schiavo
June 15th, 2005 at 11:06 pmAs has already been mentioned in the iBlogMini to the right, Terri Schiavo’s autopsy has been completed and–surprise, surprise–everything that real doctors who had examined her said was the case . . . was the case. But, the fact that…
just john, the American Medical Association says ethical violations should be reported to the state medical society.
And the Tennessee Medical Association says complaints should be directed to the president of the doctor’s local medical society.
Frist’s TMA records show his local society is the Nashville Academy of Medicine.
The president of NAM is Dr. Kenneth Lloyd. NAM’s main contact info is:
(615) 327-1236
nashvillemedicine@comcast.net
205 23rd Avenue North
Nashville, TN 37203
I sent them my complaint after he claimed to not know whether tears and saliva could transmit the HIV virus.
June 15th, 2005 at 11:08 pmI misunderstood the story. Bill Frist’s brain hadn’t shrunk, it was Terri Schiavo’s. My bad. It was just seems that every time I see Frist on the news, his head seems to be shrinking and his eyes are more glazed and lifeless. Hey, what about the Democrats, though. I understand their balls have shrunk to the size of peas. Is their condition irreversible too?
June 15th, 2005 at 11:20 pmWhat needs to be said here is…the patient should always be the number one priority in the hospital. Universal Health Care, a Medicare for All should be included in the debate of “pro-life.”
June 15th, 2005 at 11:37 pmIn the U.S., all one should need to do is present their U.H.C. card to their medical facility, get their illness or injury taken care of, and bill the government for it. None of this “business” of healthcare, no H.M.Os, etc.
If government must err, it must err ON THE SIDE OF LIFE.
Blah blah blah. Dr. Frist based his opinion on a one hour video tape that Mrs. Schiavo’s kin edited together from countless hours of footage of Terri. They cherry-picked bits that supported their case. Seriously. The anti-feeding-tube-withdrawl crowd was duped. I myself would want my family to yank the damned thing if it were me, but the other side acted in good faith.
June 15th, 2005 at 11:40 pmRon, I question the use of your tern “Validity”. As a scientist, you know that that term refers to the proper nature of the test, that is, did they test the right thing and come up with a valid conclusion based on testing the right thing. Second to that is reliability, has the test method been established such that is is able to produce the same results over and over.
To that extent, I am sure what the ME did was both VALID and RELIABLE. Your use of the validity of the test implies a disagreement with the results.
So if you are saying they used the wrong test, then question the validity, otherwise you are questioning the wrong thing, you DO mean to question the results.
June 16th, 2005 at 12:42 amAs a person with four cats, all with distinct personalities and three of whom were rescued from abandonment, I can not agree with tOm’s advice to Frist to “go back to torturing kittens,” and that the quack doctor”‘ll do less harm that way.” Leaving aside the issue of an animal’s right to life, I wish to point out that many serial killers are known to have started out by practicing on small animals like cats, rabbits, etc. And maybe some of you readers already find certain members of the GOP “serial killers” for their disregard of the lives of the some 1700 soldiers sent to Iraq to die for doctored misinformation–not to mention the estimated 100,000 Iraqi civilians killed in the Bush war.
June 16th, 2005 at 12:45 amI do not understand the references to Cats and Frist that have appeared in several posts. Could someone explain, please?
June 16th, 2005 at 1:42 am135 – PATSIJEAN –
When he was a med student or maybe intern or resident, Frirst would get cats from the local animal shelter and use them to hone his surgical technique.
June 16th, 2005 at 3:20 amHe killed cats for fun and profit. He lied to the shelters to get them.
June 16th, 2005 at 5:22 amNot a joke, not a rumor.
http://www.troyrecord.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=6576303&BRD=1170&PAG=740&dept_id=226958&rfi=6
WASHINGTON, Dec 31, 2002 (United Press International via COMTEX) — Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., is being asked by an animal advocacy group to support legislation for better animal treatment to make up for fraudulently adopting cats from animal shelters then experimenting on and killing them while he was a medical student.
A Dec. 31 letter from the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals asked Frist to make amends by pressing for reforms that would replace old-style tests where animals are subjected to painful and sometimes deadly procedures with newer, more humane approaches. They also requested that he help fund research to find non-animal alternatives.
Frist acknowledged in a 1989 book that he routinely killed cats while an ambitious medical student at Harvard Medical School in the 1970s. His office said it had no record on how many cats died. Frist disclosed that he went to animal shelters and pretended to adopt the cats, telling shelter personnel he intended to keep them as pets. Instead he used them to sharpen his surgical skills, killing them in the process.
The newly elected leader of the Senate Republicans revealed the practice in his book “Transplant: A Heart Surgeon’s Account of the Life-and-Death Dramas of the New Medicine.”
“It was a heinous and dishonest thing to do,” Frist wrote, in a passage quoted by The Boston Globe. On Tuesday, Frist’s press aide, Nick Smith, told United Press International that “Senator Frist denounces the activities that he did while he was in medical school — as he has done before.”
It is not clear if Frist’s actions were illegal. Many states ban shelters from knowingly letting their animals be taken for such purposes.
Massachusetts put such a ban in place in 1983. Frist was a student in the Boston area from 1974 to 1978. A total of 14 states have passed such laws. Four states — Iowa, Minnesota, Utah and Oklahoma — still have laws that allow labs to demand the release of animals for experimental use.
But such regulations, called pound seizure laws, only govern the actions of the shelters.
“The pound seizure law probably would not apply there because the shelter did not intentionally sell the animal to him for this purpose,” said Debora Bresch, a lawyer and a lobbyist for the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.
“They thought they were adopting the animal out to him,” said Bresch. “What he did was fraudulent and probably was illegal.”
“It would probably would be considered cruel back even then,” added Stephen Musso, senior vice president and chief of operations of ASPCA.
Though Musso said he personally had not heard about the Frist incident, he told UPI, “We wouldn’t want to see anybody taking an animal out of an animal shelter and doing anything with it — first of all that would be harmful; second of all, different than the intentions that they gave to the people at that shelter or humane organization.”
Attitudes toward animal experimentation have shifted, said Gary Patronek, director of the Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy in North Grafton, Mass.
“The fact that laws have passed prohibiting the practice of pound seizure in 14 states is evidence of the fact that society’s attitudes have changed,” Patronek told UPI. “The laws reflect the attitudes. If there isn’t a broad social consensus about something, then typically the laws don’t change.”
The demographics have changed also. By the end of 2000, a total of 34 percent of American households had at least one cat — a sharp rise of 8 percent in only two years. The American Pet Products Manufacturers Association also said in their 2001-2002 National Pet Owner Survey that 39 percent of all U.S. households owned at least one dog in 2000, about the same percentage as in 1998.
Though Frist’s practice has been known for 11 years, the matter appears to be gathering new attention since his election as Senate majority leader. E-mail with copies of news articles mentioning the incident are bouncing around the Internet, said Bresch.
One Frist supporter said the senator’s opponents are fueling the interest in the issue.
“What is happening here is that people are doing profiles of the senator, and they are desperate to find something wrong with him and to come up with something bad in his past,” he pointed out.
Whether Frist will come to the aid of animal legislative causes remains to be seen. His spokesman said they had not seen the PETA letter and therefore would not comment on it.
PETA, normally more combative and high-profile, took a somewhat restrained tone in its letter. There was no mistaking PETA’s opinion, however, as the organization asked Frist to make an effort on the animals’ behalf.
“There could be no better way of making some small amends to those animals whose trust you betrayed when you took them from shelters,” the letter said.
June 16th, 2005 at 5:24 amRon,
You don’t know what the death with dignity movement is. It’s the right to die rather than waste away movement, but it gets jumped on by the culture of lies movement (the ass clowns that want to keep dead vegetables alive) so it’s called the death with dignity movement. We can’t use words that mean what they mean anymore. Isn’t that a little PC? That’s also HYPOCRISY.
June 16th, 2005 at 5:31 amI do know what the death with dignity movement is. Now, please, give it a rest. It’s all becoming undignified. You needn’t be so indignant. I was taught to respect all life. I’ll continue to do just that.
June 16th, 2005 at 7:55 amLet the backpeddling begin! I had to laugh this morning when the CBS Early Show interviewed Frist & his response to the autopsy results were that they were correct & accurate…What a hypocrite. The Repugnithugs are truly the party of hypocrites.
June 16th, 2005 at 8:24 amI have four children. Two of them are twin daughters. They were born at home, but with a doctor’s guidance. After the third day, one became dehydrated. She was too weak to breastfeed and was not getting mother’s milk.
The doctor came to our home and gave us the necessary medical advice to save our newborn daughter. He knew that hospitalization may be too risky, but it couldn’t be ruled out. What he had us do was have my wife express her breast milk in measured amounts and feed it to our daughter through one of her nostrils with an eye dropper. After 36 hours of feeding her through ‘a tube’ she regained her strength and no longer needed to be fed through her nostril. She was too weak to even swallow. It was work and what you would call ‘intensive care.’ You do what has to be done because it had to be done to prevent her death. Hospitalization may not have been as successful. She is now a healthy eight year old and happy as a lark.
The doctor could have used the force of the State to intervene, but he didn’t. He practiced reliable, proven medical care. My wife and I are indebted to him and he cared enough to do the right thing. He chose a course that was maybe frowned upon by the State. His decision was the right one.
It was a fight for life, death was not a choice.
June 16th, 2005 at 9:00 amRon,
This scenerio plays out 1,000’s of time a day throughout the world. The decisions are based on scientific medical facts not on religious histeria and press frenzy.
I’m glad to hear that you children are well. Time to get over it and move on. A big part of the problem here was/is Terri’s parents, they remain in denial and really need some professional help to return to reality.
June 16th, 2005 at 10:18 amWTF is your problem mate? You are the one acting indignant. Respect life. Respect other’s rights to do with their lives as they see fit. You have obviously more issues than Readers Digest. I’m not interested in a subscription.
June 16th, 2005 at 10:21 amLooks like Frist’s opinion as a doctor(?) aren’t any better than his opinions as a Senator(?). Seems like he fell down on the lynching resolution, too. My suggestion to Mr. Frist…quit both jobs and go pick up garbage.
June 16th, 2005 at 10:26 amSayonara, Frist
June 16th, 2005 at 10:47 amNow that the autopsy results have shown that poor Terry Schiavo was blind and had extensive, irreparable brain damage, her family’s Republican champions are desperately backpedalling.
Ron, I have no doubt that you are a caring and decent human being and feel true compassion for what Terri Schiavo went through. Your personal experience with your daughter perhaps make you feel the Schindlers’ pain more acutely. We should applaud the parents’ desire to do anything they could to help their daughter at the time of her collapse and for a few years after. But there has to come a time when you face the facts of the situation and do the compassionate thing. Her parents were keeping Terri alive to foster their own hope. That strikes me as cruelty in and of itself. If I believed that Terri was suffering while dying, I would have to imagine that she was suffering for the 15 years since her collapse. Would you want to watch your child suffer for 15 years?
Another point that should be made is that Terri Schiavo was an intensely private and shy person. She had problems with her weight and was uncomfortable in the spotlight. As a private person myself, I wouldn’t want my medical background debated ad nauseum by everyone in the country. I wouldn’t want pictures of my contorted body plastered over the internet.
I also have to say that I absolutely agree with you that it’s distasteful that she was starved to death. Perhaps now it’s time to propose a Compassionate Death Bill, for people with no hope of recovery. As long as it’s strictly regulated, with opinions from multiple doctors and an exhaustive court hearing to make sure someone’s not offing their loved ones willy-nilly, then anyone’s fears about euthanasia should be allayed.
Should Terri Schiavo have been kept alive? That’s not up to me, or to any of us, and it never has been.
June 16th, 2005 at 11:19 amAs Ron still hasn’t responded to my invitation to challege on a factual and evidentiary basis, the autopsy results, but has sought instead to divert attention from the issue (which again, is that Ron has absolutely nothing to back his claim that the autopsy results are in any way, assailable) I think we can all conclude that as suspected, Ron simply has nothing to say. Ron confuses “free thought” with “vacuous conclusions supported by nothing by wishful thinking, conjecture and whimsy.” Apparently, to Ron “free thought” is “free” in the sense that it is devoid of any relationship between fact and fantasy.
June 16th, 2005 at 1:41 pmFrist is Fristory. No WH for him, unless Hillary invites him.
June 16th, 2005 at 1:43 pm“In any case did we have to STARVE her to death. Even criminals are dispatched off in a more humane manner. ”
June 16th, 2005 at 2:20 pmYes, it is too bad she had to go that way.
But, when euthanasia is still illegal here what choice is there?
148
It is 2:03 PM. I will note the time. In the mean time, do a search on google.
Use the words: Brain shrinkage, dehydration.
My ‘vacuous conclusions’ a merely a musing and wishful thinking on your part.
The information is there. Whether it applies to Terry Schiavo’s case is an unanswered question, since the autopsy results are unassailable.
Suffice it to say that there is the plausibility of her brain shrinking from lack of water.
If you don’t do a search, I will understand. You won’t want to hear what it has to say.
June 16th, 2005 at 3:11 pmThe Schiavo family is still having problems accepting the truth about their daughter. How sad that they would chose to have her suffer, being profound Catholics, rather than be with God, which is “supposed” to be the greater good. I applaud Michael for sticking it through to the end, to his credit and his wife’s.
June 16th, 2005 at 3:13 pmAs a registered nurse who regularly works with the sick and dying, I would like to state that discontinueing feeding tubes and fluids is regular approved medical practice and not cruel or inhuman. Part of the death cycle is that the body shuts down, kidneys, lungs, everything, and studies have shown that hydrating comatose terminally ill and dying patients only increases their pain and restlessness. We in the medical profession absolutely do not ignore pain and suffering. JAHCO guidelines states that pain is the fifth vital sign and must be addressed. Terry Schiavo would have been made comfortable and given morphine to ease her transition. She would have died with dignity and compassion. I think it was cruel and inhuman to plaster her face all over the media so that people could see her in her last moments. I am sure she would have wanted her privacy protected. And what happened to her was a gross invasion of her privacy and dignity as a human being.
June 16th, 2005 at 3:39 pmComment by Ron @ 151
It is 2:20 PM. I will note the time. In the mean time, do a search on google.
Use the words: Aliens, Area 51, UFO’s, abductions, Anal probe.
My ‘vacuous conclusions’ a merely a musing and wishful thinking on your part.
If you don’t do a search, I will understand. You won’t want to hear what it has to say.
June 16th, 2005 at 5:21 pm151
It is 2:23 PM. I will note the time. In the mean time, do a search on google.
Use the words: Aliens, Abductions, UFOs
If you don’t do a search, I will understand. You won’t want to hear what it has to say.
Now get real.
June 16th, 2005 at 5:23 pmHouse calls from the Senate
June 16th, 2005 at 7:23 pmSenator Frist called it as he saw it. Alas, he called it wrong. He made his insight,
…based on a review of the video footage which I spent an hour or so looking at last night
Fair is fair, and so I too did some video viewing and I think on two recent fi
Lots of people playing arm-chair M.D. here. First “She certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli.â€? is a 100% true statement. If you saw the video she did appear to respond to visual stimulli. The real problem is that tracking objects with your eyes is not nessecarily a sign of higher brain function, and just so Ron is not confused let’s talk about higher brain function. We’re not talking about the understanding or any specific cognitive process we’re talking about the ability to think period. Even those people that you say you worked with had higher brain function, but it was simply limited. Terri had no higher brain function.
I also think it’s amusing that you think that dehydration caused her brain to shrink to half it’s normal size. Do you think that her entire body had shrivled up to half it’s total volume? Do you think that it takes the loss of anywhere near half of your water content to die?
June 17th, 2005 at 4:11 pmgiving careful consideration of where mr. frist is from, i can now see why people, (who are in the condition that terry was in), would be considered as being “normal” to him.
June 17th, 2005 at 6:23 pmYour brain is 95% water. Deductive reasoning tells me that after 15 days of no water, any organism is going to experience severe water loss in all of it’s tissue.
It’s a no-brainer.
June 17th, 2005 at 6:57 pmor 13 days, even. ‘its tissue’
June 17th, 2005 at 7:00 pmAnybody who is able to last 13 days without food or water has a profound will to live.
From somebody who has been there.
“I would like to inform you that I am the mother of a child that is being fed by gastrostomy having been brain damaged at the age of four months. So I think I would be qualified to comment on the so-called diagnosis of PVS. My daughter is now nine years old. My daughter will always be dependent upon me for all her care. My daughter could very easily be diagnosed as suffering PVS. However, like Terri she is cognitive and aware of her family, our friends and able to communicate her needs. I have watched the videos of Terri. Have you? In these videos I see a woman who, although impaired by the brain damage suffered, is able to similarly respond to her caretakers and parents.”
Referring to the article in the WSWS:
“Your position is clearly hostile to Terri and her parents. If we wish Terri to “die with dignityâ€? then why not give her a lethal injection and be done with it? To allow her to die a slow death by dehydration and starvation is the cruelest thing imaginable. It is this image that I as a human being and mother cannot shake from my mind. If the idea is to allow her to die with dignity then why not use euthanasia? Besides having the tube removed, Terri is being refused water and food orally. We treat animals with more dignity.”
Just for everyone’s edification.
June 17th, 2005 at 7:45 pmJesus, Ron, let it go already! You can live for up to three weeks without food, and usually up to about three days without water. I’m with you that it was a horrible way for her to die, but for you to say that she had a will to live because she survived 13 days, for people to translate inarticulate moans into “I want to live,” that’s just delusional, man. It’s letting hope cloud reason.
I wasn’t there, you weren’t there, none of us were, so we can’t say for certain what state Terri was in. But I do trust the opinions of the myriad doctors and judges who exhaustively over 9 years examined her case and found her to be in a PVS.
At this point, I think you’re arguing just to be contrary.
June 18th, 2005 at 1:43 pmIf Terri was wronged in any way, then the religious among us should realize that those responsible will be judged by GOD for their actions, regardless of our judgements. Religiously, I feel it is the same with abortion as well. That said, Terri was essentially dead years ago and her husband made the most just choice he legally could. Stop dragging them through the dirt over again. Please?
June 18th, 2005 at 9:42 pmPoor Ron, you’re more popular than Teri!! I’m siding w/ the nurses & doctors who’ve responded. I taped a news show that showed the scan of her brain & I could see that it was just jelly!! Which is why Frist’s actions are so despicable! My best friend is a neurologist & after seeing the tapes of Teri I asked her what could cause her reactions. She basically said that it was a reptilian response we all have once we’ve been reduced to such a state. Sorry, but the scan said everything to me. Too bad Frist wasn’t more of a layman, maybe he could’ve come to the same conclusion!! But you got to give it to those Bush boys: if they don’t get their own way, they don’t give up until they do (I’ve known more 5 yr. olds w/ more dignity)
June 20th, 2005 at 9:02 pmBy the way, in Colorado there was a woman who’s son did pull through after he was taken off life support. God’s will or what, we’ll never know in this lifetime, but obviously He felt it was time for Teri to exit the media circus.
Ever since Terri was first put on the news in the ’90s I have had a living will. I always carried the one page state declaration at all times. Since the special session to make Terri’s Law I have had all ten pages of the Living Will & the Power of Attorney also with me at all times. I would never cross the state line without declaration for the states I will be in. I will never set foot in fla, tx, nor la. I have considered tattoos, “No CPR”, “No Tubes”, “No IV”. But what if I manage enough $ to be able to live in France. Then I don’t want English directives on my arm.
June 22nd, 2005 at 1:57 pmTerri was a pretty girl & very romantic & fun. You can tell she would not have wanted to be trapped in the hopeless & humiliating state she was in. Her parents are Catholic. Our family had to leave France in 1681 because of King Louis XIV & the Catholics were going to kill us. Nothing has changed. It’s their way or the highway.
Reading some of the comments, on Terri here.Most of these people do not have a clue.
June 28th, 2005 at 11:57 amFrist I have to agree with you, As for the person that commented on feeling sorry for terri’s family they have the wrong thought. Terri was not suffering nearly as bad on her tube and being visited by her family as the pain she suffered in those 14 days. You people have all posted you ANTI comments, but from reading them not a one of you thought this through.
Terri wanted to live, or she would never of fought to live through all she went through in these 15 years. Think about it. All of you how voted for her tube to be removed, you need a lesson in compassion. Applogize to Mr. Schaivo. For what?
I had a loved one that was on a feeder tube justfor feed /water/ and Medication. Like Terri they smiled, followed us with their eyes around the room, just like terri.BUT for months they did not do too much after they were injured. Somepeople wanted to do that with them. I fought it, and won, and the results was, they learned to respond in the best way they could. Have any of you besides myself and the lady with the child experienced this? Do any of you have any idea, what people with injuries do?
June 28th, 2005 at 3:52 pmHave any of you witnessed from onset of injury to death, what takes place? I do not beleive the answer would would be yes. So WHY WHAT reason would you have to comment on removal of a feeder tube? Have any of you boastful citizens gone with out food or water for even 3 days? No I didn’t think so. Have any of you that have made comments of Terri sat with a loved one that has brain damage or even BRAIN DEAD, and watched them respond? I didn’t think so.Well let me kind of enlighten all of you.
I have done both.I have sat day in and day out with a BRAIN DEAD, they do not laugh, they do not cry,and they do not stay alive forever on a feeder tube or a ventilator which by the way a ventilator is an artificial means it keeps you breathing. A feeder tube is just that it is a means of giving you food & water and meds to keep you comfortable. Afeeder tube does not make you breath, it does not make you laugh, it does not make you cry, It only gives you food and water. Terri’s brain supposedly shrunk to half its size. How was this diagnosed? Damaged how was this diagnosed? See MRI’s can only show an area of where the damage is.Lets talk Brain Cells. How much brain do we have first, then Cells we are born with trillions, but from our first breath we start losing them, so by the Time we are lets say 20-40 years old how many Cells do we have left to function with? Say most of you people that comment here with WSWS are 20-40,supposedly you all have a full size brain, Well Terri with a half responded more intellegently that what I have read from you.
None of you know anything about a Brain Injured person. One said with I assume a full Brain capacity Michael stuck it out to the end?
What part of your Brain are you using? He didn”t stick it out. He moved on with another womanwhile still married to TERRI. He didn’t even have the MALE capabilities to Love and Honor Terri enough to divorce her.Maybe if he had not been involved with another, he may have stuck it out to the end, which who knows may have been a week after But I doubt it . Terri apparently wanted to live. People wake up,If the body wants to live it keeps fighting. Teri fought for 15 years. In spite of what Micael wanted, Terri fought for 14 days for her life. Wake up people, Terri did not die 15 min. to an hour after Micael stopped her food and water. Terri struggled and fought for 14 days. 14 DAYS waiting for somone to do something so she could go on living. Recovery, That was mentioned, but I do not recall it being the main point. I recall her Mother asking Michael to restore her tube so they could enjoy her till GOD called her home. I beleive I even ONCE read where they asked him to give her back to them and he go on with his new life. NO this was not about recovery, this was about LIFE. LIFE taht Terri fought so long 15 years and so hard 14 days to stay a live no matter what her husband, and the American people that voted for him to do this to her. Terri wanted to live any life she could. Even in a vegatation state which harmed no one. NOT her NOT her family NOT the American people. It harmed her husband. BUT he was her Guardian. He was suppose to do everything in his power for her. He was her Husband. He was suppose to CARE for her in SICKNESS and in Health. He may have cared for her in Health, But he surely did not care for her in SICKNESS. He removed the TUBE that caused her to starve and dehydrate.
WAKE up people. MAYBE you all should change your casting, and write RON and tell him after waking up what your decision is. If you are awake, it sure the HELL can not be that it was right for TERRI’s tube to be removed.
I FEEL IT WAS “DEAD” WRONG
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July 1st, 2005 at 9:06 pmhttp://www.pufan.com
[...] Then again, maybe Frist is just trying to prove he still deserves that MD degree. [...]
July 29th, 2005 at 4:28 pm[...] Now Lord knows I’m no fan of Mr. Frist. His positions on Lynching, Terri Schiavo and abortion rights are tell tale signs of a man born and raised Unreasonable. (and that’s not even to mention his pathological thing with cats.) But his recent moves on Stem Cell Research represent a reasonable compromise and a refreshing break from Bush’s bizzaro world logic (wherein its better that embryo’s be destoyed than used to save lives). [...]
August 2nd, 2005 at 8:51 amSchiavo case is none of anyone’s business.
September 23rd, 2005 at 12:24 pmI can’t believe the president flew to sign a bill for Terry when he stayed on his vacation 3 days into Katrina. Where are the “morals” there? Neither Frist or Bush could care less about anything that doesn’t help their polital gain.
September 23rd, 2005 at 12:26 pmbdsm contacts
Think Progress »…
October 4th, 2005 at 3:42 am[...] June 15: Autopsy Shows Schiavo Was Blind, Contradicting Frist’s “Diagnosis.” On the Senate floor, Frist said that video footage suggested to him that she “certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli.” [Link] [...]
November 3rd, 2005 at 12:33 pm[...] June 15: Autopsy Shows Schiavo Was Blind, Contradicting Frist’s “Diagnosis.” On the Senate floor, Frist said that video footage suggested to him that she “certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli.” [Link] [...]
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December 7th, 2005 at 8:08 amfags!lean nutrition falsify disassembly?biosphere …
January 15th, 2006 at 7:28 am[...] Because if a man isn’t right there in the room with his lady, he won’t say a word about her. [...]
February 12th, 2006 at 8:21 pm[...] If there is anyone who should understand that mistakes can be made, it’s Bill Frist. [...]
February 19th, 2006 at 11:34 am[...] It never fails that in politics, there are people that you can always count on to be on your side. For the Bush administration, one of those people is Senator Bill Frist. Mr. Frist was a renowned heart surgeon before being elected to the senate, and at one point falsely (and remotely no less) diagnosed Terri Schiavo as being blind when in fact she was not. [...]
February 20th, 2006 at 10:03 am[...] Well, besides the obvious ones about vivisecting cats he lied about obtaining, conflicts of interest with the family business and his current job, the Eli Lily thing, or his videotape diagnosis of Terry Schiavo, I’ve got nothing. Anyone else got any suggestions? [...]
February 22nd, 2006 at 3:44 pm[...] In a letter to Senate minority leader Harry Reid (D-NV), majority leader Bill Frist (R-TN) has threatened to restructure the Senate Intelligence Committee in a blatantly partisan effort to kill the FISA/NSA probe. Frist has previously shown himself willing to abandon his ethics in favor of doing the White House’s dirty work and advancing his political career. (see his actions during the Terry Schiavo affair). [...]
March 5th, 2006 at 8:59 pm[...] 3. No matter what Jill Carroll or anyone else says we would not make a medical diagnoses without any expertise or facts. That seems to be a specialty of the right. [...]
March 31st, 2006 at 2:28 pmthere are many fascinating medical experts who have posted on this page on how 13 days without water would “deteriorate and shrivel the brain.” are you neurologists? Have you ever studied the brain? The parts of Schiavo’s brain that suffered “cortical death” were not shriveled in the autopsy. They had deteriorated into nothing as they had not functioned for over 14 years. Without any knowledge of the subject besides a possibly-vague high school biology class, please refrain from posting. It is you, the “Hannity’s of the world” that blind the uneducated and contest with true Americans, who do hard-work to research and dig up facts and evidence, upon false grounds. W has led this country against its foundations. It was not built upon one religion, rather it was several cultures coming together with virtues of TRUTH and JUSTICE. Stop being so ignorant.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:17 pm[...] I won’t write much political stuff on this blog, but this was to funny to pass up. Politicans on both sides of the aisle pander to their bases and I read this as a case of it blowing up in someones face (from Think Progress) [...]
May 10th, 2006 at 12:44 am[...] Think Progress says:Frist’s Fraudulent Diagnosis: Which makes Dr. Frist’s expert “diagnosis” all the more outrageous. [...]
July 2nd, 2006 at 2:58 am[...] Oh, that Frist! No one can question his judgment or competence, right? Ignore if you can Frist’s belief that HIV may be spread by tears and mosquitoes and his video diagnosis of Terri Schiavo which proved to be not only unethical but dead wrong. [...]
August 30th, 2006 at 1:38 pmSomeone said that Bill Frist should lose his license because of this incident.
Fortuitous ? Psychic ?
As it seems that his license has expired, because of his negligence.
Can you say malpractice boys and girls?
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October 22nd, 2006 at 11:22 pm[...] 64. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN) used a video tape “diagnosis” to declare that Terri Schiavo, who was later found to be blind, “certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli.” [Link] [...]
November 6th, 2006 at 6:13 pm[...] 64. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN) used a video tape “diagnosis†to declare that Terri Schiavo, who was later found to be blind, “certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli.†[Link] [...]
November 7th, 2006 at 12:57 pm[...] I won’t write much political stuff on this blog (relative to other stuff), but this was to funny to pass up. Politicans on both sides of the aisle pander to their bases and I read this as a case of it blowing up in someones face (from Think Progress) [...]
December 11th, 2006 at 9:37 amristorante casoli ..
January 25th, 2007 at 7:44 pm[...] from afar than it was for Bill Frist to diagnose Terri Schiavo based upon video tapes, only to be proven wrong on [...]
March 16th, 2007 at 12:26 pm[...] He also says, “The vision centers of her brain were dead†– meaning she was blind.(From thinkprogress)(Post a new comment) auburnsiren 2005-06-15 06:31 pm UTC (link) Grasping at straws to further their [...]
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