Memo To Rove: Read the Classified Information Nondislcosure Agreement
Memo To Rove: Read the Classified Information Nondislcosure Agreement
The New York Times reports this morning:
A 1982 statute makes it a crime for people with authorized access to classified information to knowingly identify covert agents. If officials learned the information solely from reporters rather than from confidential files, they probably did not violate the law. Even if they came to know the information in both ways, the fact that it was in public circulation would suggest that it was not particularly secret.
That’s not quite true. This characterization by the Times fails to report the duties assigned to individuals, like Karl Rove, who receive national security clearance. Administration officials who are given the national security clearance to receive classified information are required to sign the “Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement,” also known as the “SF 312.” The SF 312 Briefing Booklet helps answer questions about the practices and procedures that should be followed by individuals given top national security clearance. Here’s what question #19 in that booklet says:
Question 19: If information that a signer of the SF 312 knows to have been classified appears in a public source, for example, in a newspaper article, may the signer assume that the information has been declassified and disseminate it elsewhere?
Answer: No. Information remains classified until it has been officially declassified. Its disclosure in a public source does not declassify the information. Of course, merely quoting the public source in the abstract is not a second unauthorized disclosure. However, before disseminating the information elsewhere or confirming the accuracy of what appears in the public source, the signer of the SF 312 must confirm through an authorized official that the information has, in fact, been declassified. If it has not, further dissemination of the information or confirmation of its accuracy is also an unauthorized disclosure.
The answer makes clear that Rove not only had a duty not to disclose the identity of a covert CIA agent, but he also had an affirmative duty prior to confirming Plame’s identity with a reporter to first “confirm through an authorized official that the information has, in fact, been declassified.” Thus, the argument by Rove allies, as reported by CNN, that “Rove was the recipient of information, not a provider” is irrelevant. Instead of saying “I heard that, too,” Rove’s answer to Novak should have been “no comment” when Novak said he heard Plame worked at the CIA. But that answer of course would have prevented him from engaging in the smear campaign against Wilson.
Sort Comments By: Top Rated | Date
93 Responses to “Memo To Rove: Read the Classified Information Nondislcosure Agreement”
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog Roll
This is correct. And failure to live up to the stipulations in that agreement can run afoul of a number of statutes, not just the 1982 "Intelligence Identities Protection Act". Classified information, in general, is protected by some powerful laws.
The one that, to my non-lawyerly eye, looks to be most relevant to Rove's situation would be Title 18, Section 793, enacted in the "Espionage Act" of 1917 (amended 1918).
The entire agreement is worth reading.
July 16th, 2005 at 1:56 pmThis SF 312 is an agreement a 5 year old could comprehend (atleast where I come from)
Funny, Rove couldn't comprehend its meaning? And he has a high level position?
He's nailed, he's going down!
This outing of Plame to prevent Wilson from telling the truth about WMD's is a clear connection to the "fixing of intelligence".
Good bye BushCo.
July 16th, 2005 at 2:00 pmI can only hope that the grand jury interprets the evidence the same way, let's just say I haven't been impressed with the outcome of "American justice" as of late.
July 16th, 2005 at 2:08 pmThere are stories circulating that Rove may have been told of Valerie Plame's CIA activity by a journalist, such as Judith Miller, as recently suggested in Editor & Publisher. If so, that doesn't exonerate Rove. Rather, it could make for some interesting pairing under the federal conspiracy statute (which was the statute most commonly employed during Watergate).
See below for conspiracy statute.
July 16th, 2005 at 2:28 pmU.S. Code as of: 01/06/03
Section 371. Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States
If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense
July 16th, 2005 at 2:30 pmagainst the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any
agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of
such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy,
each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than
five years, or both.
If, however, the offense, the commission of which is the object
of the conspiracy, is a misdemeanor only, the punishment for such
conspiracy shall not exceed the maximum punishment provided for
such misdemeanor.
Rove Rove Rove, why don't you guys post this tripe from your looney fest? Loosen the tinfoil headgear people.LOL! Straws, grasping at straws....
Ex-Clinton Aide Charges Republicans 'Want to Kill Us'
By Jered Ede
CNSNews.com Correspondent
July 15, 2005
(CNSNews.com) - Young liberals this week flocked to the nation's capital to hear, among other things, liberal television pundit and Democrat political strategist Paul Begala accuse Republicans of wanting to kill him and his children to preserve tax cuts for the rich.
Begala was featured at the first-ever Campus Progress National Student Conference, which was designed to provide campus liberals with the tools necessary to fight the conservative movement. The event also drew former President Bill Clinton, for whom Begala once worked as an advisor.
A panel discussion entitled "Winning the War of Ideas" centered on topics discussed in the book "What's the Matter with Kansas" by Thomas Frank and detailed the challenges that Democrats face in persuading voters in the American heartland and elsewhere to embrace their agenda and support their candidates.
Begala's presence on the panel created a stir when he declared that Republicans had "done a p***-poor job of defending" the U.S.
Republicans, he said, "want to kill us.
"I was driving past the Pentagon when that plane hit" on Sept. 11, 2001. "I had friends on that plane; this is deadly serious to me," Begala said.(what, I thought you guys didn't think there was a plane?)
"They want to kill me and my children if they can. But if they just kill me and not my children, they want my children to be comforted -- that while they didn't protect me because they cut my taxes, my children won't have to pay any money on the money they inherit," Begala said. "That is bulls*** national defense, and we should say that."
The Clinton administration's national security efforts involved the right blend of "experience" and "strength," Begala said, an assertion with which the 9/11 Commission apparently disagreed.( and that was after Berger stuffed his soks to cover up the worst of it!)
In its report, the bipartisan commission stated that "each president considered or authorized covert actions, a process that consumed considerable time -- especially in the Clinton administration -- and achieved little success beyond the collection of intelligence."
Begala also included Republican domestic policies in his sweeping criticism. The GOP, he said, "ain't had a new idea since they opposed Social Security, and guess what, they still do. ... They are beginning to figure out that there is no Soviet Union, but they still want Star Wars to stop it," Begala said.
"Okay, they are utterly and completely brain-dead," echoing comments earlier this year by Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean, who accused Republicans of being "brain dead."
Frank insisted that Republicans are not quite as tough on national security as many Americans think.
"Franklin Roosevelt got us in World War II. They dragged the Republicans kicking and screaming. They didn't want to get in that war. They didn't have any problem with Hitler. I won't go so far as to say they thought Hitler rocked. But there were people in America who did, and they didn't want us to get in that war. Democrats have always been just as tough as Republicans once they're in office," Frank said.
Frank did not mention one of the most vocal opponents of U.S. intervention in World War II: Democrat Joseph P. Kennedy, who was one of Roosevelt's top fundraisers, the U.S. ambassador to Great Britain and father of John F. Kennedy, who would later become America's 35th president.
Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr., the eldest of the ambassador's sons, wrote his father with his own observations of the global conflict. Hitler's "dislike of the Jews ... was well-founded," the younger Kennedy explained in his letter.
"In every revolution, you have to expect some bloodshed. Hitler is building a spirit in his men that could be envied in this country," wrote Kennedy, Jr., expressing an opinion his father shared.
"I was very pleased and gratified at your observations of the German situation, and I think your conclusions are very sound," the elder Kennedy replied to his son.
Frank defended his point, however, claiming that Republicans didn't see Hitler as a threat to America until Pearl Harbor.
He repeated the Democratic criticism of America's invasion of Iraq. Saddam Hussein "was a horrible (sic), a dictator, a butcher, a tyrant, a mass murderer -- as evil as they come," Frank said, but he added: "I don't think he was a threat to the U.S. at the time."
Former Clinton administration Chief of Staff John Podesta told the students that "you can fight hard for what you believe without breaking the law, without cheating and certainly without checking your morals at the door."
July 16th, 2005 at 3:50 pm(yes, john, and you and Tony can help the Chinese get the computers that made them able to threaten the US with nuclear weapons this week, but you had your morals were when you sold out our security? File under Clintoon, ethics, super computer sell out!)
Shut up loser, your rants prove we have a case.
Of course for a mental case like you that is impossible to see.
July 16th, 2005 at 3:53 pmWow. Wingnuts really do put party and power before loyalty to America.
Fake but Accurate: Prime example.
July 16th, 2005 at 4:08 pmFake But Accurate is a sick and twisted Freepaholic and his wife will be divorcing him in a few years, probably with the aid of a TRO. He has a new blog devoted to one of our posters and he still uses the electoral map of all the "red states" as some kind of indication of red state dominance. If field mice and rabbits are Republicans with a vote, I guess he's right.
July 16th, 2005 at 4:09 pmHere's a must read. I've been looking for others who find the Plame outing as part of the "fixing of intelligence".
We will take down the entire administration via Rove. Check this out.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0715/p09s02-cods.html
July 16th, 2005 at 4:13 pmSusan knows everything!!! You think she can tell us about testimony and actual evidence from the case? I can't seem to find it. Oh, I know why. The investigation is not complete and the grand jury hasn't made any conslusions or indictments yet.
I wonder if she thinks the insults make her evidence more credible? Do you get the feeling that she can't accept information that contradicts her position?
July 16th, 2005 at 4:14 pmTin Foil, I've refused to look at his blog until you enticed me.
Fake is sicker than I thought. He should be picked up for evaluation. Seriously. He is a threat to America.
July 16th, 2005 at 4:17 pm"If information that a signer of the SF 312 knows to have been classified appears in a public source, for example, in a newspaper article..."
There's no evidence Rove divulged any information he knew to be classified, so this does not apply.
"Of course, merely quoting the public source in the abstract is not a second unauthorized disclosure."
Rove's "yeah, that's what I heard" seems to fall within this caveat. But continue beating your dead horse... Carry on.
July 16th, 2005 at 4:37 pmSteed,
It's never too late to prevent the egg from hitting your face by admitting things look bad.
July 16th, 2005 at 4:38 pmHi! Girls!
July 16th, 2005 at 4:43 pmCome off it Steed, I cite the law and your criminal buddie broke it. Deal with it.
Thanks for the attention although freaks have no place in my life.
Hey fake is looking for a new wife, ya interested? Or are you already his lover?
Truthfully, I believe your the same freak but until I have your medical records I won't make that claim adamantly.
I guess I'll be the subject of Fakes rants on his blog.
Go for it freak, I'm putting a case together against you.
Remember, the gown ties in the back.
July 16th, 2005 at 4:43 pmAhhhh! That's better.
July 16th, 2005 at 4:45 pmOh God, now fakes other personality shows up (ED).
July 16th, 2005 at 4:48 pmYou need help. For real.
I am cornholio! I need some TP for my bunghole!
July 16th, 2005 at 4:49 pmAre you threatening me?
July 16th, 2005 at 4:52 pmSam and Sara where are you?
Fake likes to be a girl sometimes too.
July 16th, 2005 at 4:52 pmAm I gonna score? hnn-hn-hnnn-hnhh.
July 16th, 2005 at 4:55 pmWhat happened here?
July 16th, 2005 at 5:08 pmSame ol, same ol, we post evidence and the freaks come out to harrass.
They really don't like the way I fight back. For me, it's no holds barred when dealing with freaks who need to be shaken into reality.
I'm dying to call fakes wife a name now that I know "words" hurt him so much.
Come on fake, entice me. I've gotta good one.
July 16th, 2005 at 5:13 pmFar be it for me to get biblical, but flattery burns like hot coals. So does not responding.
July 16th, 2005 at 5:19 pmThe only people who are going to change are the ones who voted for this administration out of fear.
I'll tell you this, Susan. If anything should anger you it is the people who use "moral values" as code for pure fear. That fear caused this animal farm.
July 16th, 2005 at 5:30 pmSusan,
Calling people freaks is not evidence of anything but your own inability to come up with an argument.
July 16th, 2005 at 5:31 pmYes, suzy I'm everyone one on here but you, don't you know? I use one name here, are you projecting? After I got threatened and then offended I thought I would go make a place you guys could rally let loose at, since I'm not going to get myself banned by not following the rules here. I went to Ryan's blog, where at the top it says it was created because they were getting banned for comments, then on the first link they had comments on, what do I find, a bunch of deleted comments! Clueless hypocrites. So if you guys are so sure about Rove, why ask the Library of Congress if you can impeach him? I mean you guys are sure he is going to be shot or exiled or whatever your fantasy is today, why did you blink? Cause you lost again.
July 16th, 2005 at 5:33 pmYeah, yeah, your a freak fake. Your web blog proves it.
Funny how all personalities show up at the same time.
Can I call your wife a name now. I see how it upsets you so. Thanks for the power.
Brian, this freak is having a hard time dealing with me because I'm behaving like a republican and will continue to do so until Rove, Cheney, Bushie, O'Reilly and Coulter stop.
It will be a cold day in hell.
July 16th, 2005 at 5:42 pmWell atleast do this: For every fight you engage in, email the Senate and Congress. It's a pain in the ass, but it works. I have a stack of ridiculous letters from Cornyn and Hutchison and others. They are paying attention. They are waiting for the wind to change so they can abandon ship. Those are the people you need to channel your energy on, not some friendless nutjob. I'm out-
July 16th, 2005 at 5:50 pmHe's a freak. A sycophant. A little toadie. He's kind of cute, but kissing him will never turn him into a handsome prince.
July 16th, 2005 at 5:51 pmBrian is 100% correct there.
July 16th, 2005 at 5:51 pmI know I'm fake suzy, but I'm accurate baby. What about my blog proves anything you have said? disproves me? Your link on your name is a freaking ad for some BS spammer? "The Debtonator" WTF? You are so much fun, like an all expense paid trip to Niger with all the mint tea you can drink and a book deal to boot! One things for sure, if there is a cold day in hell you guys will blame it on Bush somehow.
July 16th, 2005 at 5:56 pmCalling people freaks is not evidence of anything but your own inability to come up with an argument.
The time for argument is long since passed. The jury rendered it's verdict. You can protest your innocence from prison and work for a reversal on appeal, if you can find another technicality, and I'm sure you can. The reason you sit in that prison cell is your arguments didn't convince anyone but you.
July 16th, 2005 at 5:57 pmOne things for sure, if there is a cold day in hell you guys will blame it on Bush somehow.
How about a really hot day in the arctic? 98 degrees up there yesterday, Suckah!
http://nunatsiaq.com/news/nunavut/50715_03.html
July 16th, 2005 at 6:00 pmSuzy aka: "The Debtonator" that is not a very flattering photo by the way, I pictured with longer hair : (
July 16th, 2005 at 6:02 pmSuzy aka: “The Debtonator� that is not a very flattering photo by the way, I pictured with longer hair : (
Let's see one of you and your... whatever.
July 16th, 2005 at 6:07 pmFroggy you mean the climate changes? And I thought it was a constant, learn something new everyday. Maybe if you turn off your computer you could help save some energy and stop the madness! Or like John S, you don't produce pollution? It's just us conservatives, as hippy says,"drivin four bys in the swamp." LOL.
July 16th, 2005 at 6:09 pm: } : ) I'm the one on the left.
July 16th, 2005 at 6:17 pmI think we are good with you in your own vehicle.
*Cue Another One Rides the Bus by Queen*
On the morning of August 2, 2002, millions of Americans turned on their TVs to see an unusual spectacle: a high-level corporate executive in handcuffs, being paraded by law enforcement officials in front of the news camera. The executive was Scott Sullivan, chief financial officer
of telecommunications firm WorldCom. Along with fellow executive David Myers, Sullivan was charged with hiding $3.85 billion in company expenses, conspiracy to commit securities fraud, and filing false information with the Securities and Exchange Commission. The combined maximum penalties from the charges were 65 years. In response
to the arrests, attorney general John Ashcroft told reporters, “Corporate executives who cheat investors, steal savings, and squander pensions will meet the judgment they fear and the punishment they deserve.�
Now consider a different crime, committed by the leadership of General Motors, together with Standard Oil of California, Firestone Tire and Rubber Company, B. F. Phillips Petroleum, and Mac Manufacturing. In 1936, the five companies formed National City Lines, a holding company that proceeded to buy electric trolley lines and tear up the tracks in cities across the nation. Each time it destroyed a local trolley system, National City would license the rights to operate a new system to a local franchisee, under the stipulation that the system convert to
July 16th, 2005 at 6:20 pmdiesel-powered General Motors buses. By 1949, more than 100 electric transit systems in 45 systems had been torn up and converted. In April of that year, a federal jury convicted GM and the other firms of conspiracy to commit anti-trust violations. But the judge set the fine for each company at $5,000. Seven executives were fined one dollar each. After the conviction, the companies went back to purchasing transit systems, removing electric trolley lines, and replacing them with buses. By 1955, 88 percent of the country’s electric streetcar network was gone. Both the Scott Sullivan case and the National City Lines case fit the traditional definition of crime: laws were broken, the legal system intervened. But the second case suggests that the larger the crime, the more the boundaries between
“crime� and “business as usual� begin to blur. As Atlanta mayor and former United Nations ambassador Andrew Young once said, “Nothing is illegal if 100 businessmen decide to do it.�
I’m the one on the left.
Left of Hitler, maybe. Nobody cares.
July 16th, 2005 at 6:22 pmFBA,
The CONservatives con america (you're a great example of this) into either believing climate change 'isn't real' or false, and then they block all meaningful legislation to produce incentives or restrictions to protect the environment. When every Right Wing Mainstream media outlet is more interested in a runaway bride, a missing white girl or brain dead woman than actual issues of global, environmental or social importance then most americans also don't believe it's important. The takeover of virtuall all american media by 7 corporate holders with their own CONservative interests and agenda does a great job of feeding semi-illiterate knee jerk weak kneed wantabee heroes like yourself into shock troops of the ignorant. Great job at being a dupe - you should be proud..
July 16th, 2005 at 6:26 pmSo back to the topic of this threat that FBA has so desperately and maniacally tried to veer off the track so he/she doesn't have to deal with the issue.
Sharing information related to CIA interworkings (third hand or not) is a violation of the employment agreement. If you don't believe this, either you know NOTHING of employment law, or your tin foil is picking up the wrong channel...
July 16th, 2005 at 6:28 pm"Sharing information related to CIA interworkings (third hand or not) is a violation of the employment agreement."
What employment agreement? You made that up, Ryan.
July 16th, 2005 at 6:47 pmIt is obvious to the most casual observer that there are at least two groups contributing to the discourse on this site. The extremes on both sides seem to think that name-calling is the answer to reason. I visit this site and contribute to this site because I have found the sponsors to be credible, reasonable, factual and while opinionated not biased. I happen to agree with their position on most issues but I do not negate that opinion if it differs from mine because of their integrity. I read most of the comments for my own education and edification and for information to strenghten or modify my own opinions. It would seem to me that each one of us could increase our credibility and add to or subtract from the strength of our own individual view and our collective merit by merely stating the facts as we see and know them and let the other side argue intelligently to the contrary. I worked under SF 312 for over 40 years at every level from Confidential to Top Secret Eyes Only and I can state that had I done as Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove, Rice and, I suspect, many others, I would have expected to spend an extended vacarion in Kansas. And not the wonderland Toto, in Leavenworth. And that, in my opinion, is where the lot of them belong.
July 16th, 2005 at 7:02 pm"...had I done as Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove, Rice and, I suspect, many others, I would have expected to spend an extended vacarion in Kansas"
There's no evidence that any of them has done anything wrong, let alone committed a crime. The only person you mentioned who is even part of any investigation is Rove. Making such wild baseless assertions doesn't bolster your credibility, Don.
July 16th, 2005 at 7:22 pmFeeling there was a crime is not a "wild" assertion, especially under the circumstances.
July 16th, 2005 at 7:40 pmCan the editors at AFJ answer the question if all of the evidence found has been made public?
Thank you, Mr. Davis, for your comment and your service to our country..
The name-calling is almost non-existent on the right wing forums like Free Republic or Little Green Footballs or the other few that even allows comments. There you are outright banned for any drift from the accepted totalitarian worldview. Real democracy is a loud and brash and messy affair, we have more of it here on the left because we have more democracy, and sometimes it gets a little rough.
July 16th, 2005 at 7:44 pmThere would be no investigation if there wasn't a crime, at this point there are many crimes. Call him a name and let it go, it's a waste of time, like arguing with a brick wall.
July 16th, 2005 at 7:46 pmGrape Soda,
There could be an investigation without a crime. You do not know there are many crimes.
July 16th, 2005 at 7:52 pmWhat of the email between Cooper and Rove, that is pretty good evidence that Rove gave out the name of Valeria Plame. you can argue the technical point of he only said Wilson's wife, but cmon how many wives does wilson have. You can also argue that Rove may have (I personally think its a not so brilliant lie) that rove recieved the information from another reporter. If he did he still broke the law by passing the information to others. I am pretty sure that Miller and Cooper do not have top secret clearance. You keep siting the investigation is not complete, and no actual charges have been put forth. that is true, however no charges were filed against Clinton until after he was forced in front of a grand jury, and the only actual charge from the months and months of investigation of Clinton produced was his lying to a grand jury.
I can only imagine what kind of crazed invectives the right would be screaming if a senior official of the Clinton adminstration had pulled the same stunt as Rove. We spend way to much time divided as I have said before without much critical judgement of the men and women who are making the laws in this country.
July 16th, 2005 at 7:54 pmThe Editors,
Your response proves my point when you state "There is no evidence..." A correct statement may be that "In our opinion there is insufficient evidence for us to abandon our heretofore misguided assumptions etc..." In my carefully considered opinion there is more than enough prima facie evidence of wrong doing to support an investigation and probably win a conviction against all the parties I named. Your shouting "It just ain't so" will not make it so. I did not make any assertions wild, baseless, or other wise. I voiced an opinion, not an assertion, based upon my experience and my understanding of the facts as they have been presented. If you feel threatened by my position, rather than resort to juvinile name-calling, as was the primary impetus for my last posting, you may want to re-evaluate your own unsupportable assertions and find cause to apologize and join the winning team.
July 16th, 2005 at 7:56 pmI took a gander at fake's little website. I usually don't resort to name calling but the dude is totally of his rocker.
July 16th, 2005 at 7:58 pmEditor is just as nuts.I am unsure why editor wants to link his website to the federalist papers. I am guessing because it seems more patriotic. while I cannot 100% know what our founding fathers would think of the current administration, I don't think that they would find much ideoligical in common.
would be nice to get some republicans who didn't resort to screaming the loudest to win an argument. I actually like northeast dilemma, he posts in a clear concise manner, and is usually polite.
July 16th, 2005 at 8:01 pmI agree with Mr. Davis, and sense most Americans do too. You can almost feel it in the air. I try to put my finger on it but can't fugure it out. I think it is Bush's refusal to explain why the WH stated Rove was not involved. Operative word being "involved".
July 16th, 2005 at 8:06 pmBush should at the very least live up to his promise to fire and fire Rove. He did say he would fire anyone involved with releasing the Mrs. Plames name to the press.
July 16th, 2005 at 8:08 pmBefore the Editors chastise me severely for my faux pas please allow me to correct the error of my ways. I misspelled a word in my last posting. The correct spelling is "juvenile." As a typical Republican response, however, it wasn't really my fault. You see those retards from the DNCC sent a virus to this website that disabled the "Spell Checker." Darn!
July 16th, 2005 at 8:23 pmThere could be an investigation without a crime. You do not know there are many crimes.
Brian, for an investigation of this sort to have proceeded past the first week, it has already been determined that a crime was committed. During the course of that investigation, the parties involved have sought to cover up their culpability and involvement in that crime, committing the further crimes of conspiracy, perjury and obstruction. This government is about to fall, slow motion, like a controlled demolition of a condemned building.
July 16th, 2005 at 8:25 pmI took a gander at fake’s little website. I usually don’t resort to name calling but the dude is totally of his rocker.
John Rocker is off his rocker. Fake is off the charts. The needle is pegged.
July 16th, 2005 at 8:27 pmHey Fake,
Download this and you can look in on all those Republican voters on yer big red map.
http://earth.google.com/
What a pinhead!
July 16th, 2005 at 9:04 pmDon,
There are no allegations of wrongdoing against Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, let alone evidence. There are wild fantasies fro mteh lunatic left, but that's all.
If hearing that Valerie Plame works for the CIA from a reporter and then telling someone else that you heard that from a reporter is a crime, then you are a criminal as much as Rove is.
July 16th, 2005 at 9:16 pmThe Editors,
God Bless you my brothers! Should you be ressurected into the land of the living please write.
July 16th, 2005 at 9:30 pmIf there were no allegations of wrongdoing then why is an investigation entering its second year? In my mind an investigation would be over by now if there was no allegations and no evidence. And before you jump all over the "liberal media" excuse I am would like to point out that the supposed bias in the news has been disproven over and over again.
Ken Tomlinson had to hire some nutcase who used to kinkos to fax his "findings" to him,when all the other surveys showed no liberal bias in PBS. and he still defined Chuck Hagel as being a raging liberal. The only criteria for being a member of the "liberal media" seems to be to print a story that does not jive with the beer and skittles attitude of the Bush admin.
July 16th, 2005 at 9:32 pm"If there were no allegations of wrongdoing then why is an investigation entering its second year?"
What evidence to you have that Bush, or Cheney, or Rumsfeld, or Rice are the subject of any investigation, Krazy?
July 16th, 2005 at 9:34 pmIf hearing that Valerie Plame works for the CIA from a reporter and then telling someone else that you heard that from a reporter is a crime, then you are a criminal as much as Rove is.
---
Come on, Editors. What part of "SF 312" is unclear?
Trust me. I've had to sign the damned thing. And believe me: if someone called up with information that a reasonable person (to say nothing of a guy who works in the Whitehouse) could conclude was classified, and I said anything other than "I can't comment on that", and did anything other than subsequently contacting security regarding the potentially classified information, I could look forward to an investigation and likely dismissal. And if, like Rove, I had actually confirmed the information, I could look forward to possible prosecution.
In other words, Ed, you're talking out of your ass.
Oh, and by the way, the account you're quoting is Rove's, as likely related anonymously by his very own lawyer. I realize this may escape you, but Rove's account is probably self serving.
July 16th, 2005 at 9:52 pmThanks for the link suzy, I already did my 7 day trial weeks ago, cool program, nice of you though. You like that map I posted don't you, you were so close, if only you had bugeted more money for crack.
Man in vote fraud case sentenced to 54 months
Former Toledoan admits trading forms for drugs
DEFIANCE - The man who grabbed national attention last fall for filling out false voter registrations in exchange for crack cocaine was sentenced yesterday in Defiance County Common Pleas Court to more than four years in prison.
Chad Staton, 22, of Defiance, who pleaded guilty Feb. 17, was sentenced to 54 months for filing false registrations.
He was sentenced by Judge Joseph Schmenk to nine months each for six counts of the fifth-degree felony, to be served consecutively, according to court personnel.
Because he was convicted of a fifth-degree felony, Staton will not be eligible for parole at any point before his 54 months have passed.
For the final four counts, Staton received a sentence of six months each, to be served concurrently. He will receive credit for 10 days he has already served.
He did not receive a fine, but will have to pay court costs and was ordered to reimburse Defiance County for his court-appointed attorney's fees.
Staton's offenses each could have resulted in a fine of $2,500 and/or imprisonment for up to 12 months.
Based on his offenses, Staton could be eligible for judicial release in as soon as 30 days after he is delivered to prison, a spokesman for Prosecutor Jeffrey Strausbaugh's office said.
Judicial release is similar to probation, but the decision to release the inmate is made by a judge rather than the prison system. Staton's attorney would have to file a motion in the common pleas court, which Judge Schmenk would either deny, or grant a hearing to consider.
The soft-spoken, slender Staton, who was formerly of Toledo, filled out the 10 forms, plus more than 90 others, in late September. The registrations hit the headlines in October, weeks before the presidential election.
In December, a grand jury returned indictments against him for filing forms in the names of Mary Poppins, Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, Michael Jordan, Dick Tracy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Brett Favre, George Foreman, Maria Lopez, and George Lopez.
In a strange twist, the woman to whom he gave the forms in exchange for crack, Georgianne Pitts, 41, of Toledo, died in early December. The Lucas County coroner's office ruled the cause of her death as an accidental overdose of a prescription medication.
Toledo police searched Ms. Pitts' home in October and found drug paraphernalia and more voter registration forms. They said she admitted to paying Staton in crack cocaine in lieu of cash.
Officers charged her with misdemeanor possession of drug paraphernalia and possession of marijuana. No charges were filed against her in Defiance.
Ms. Pitts, working on behalf of the NAACP National Voter Fund, submitted the forms to the voter fund, which in turn submitted them to the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections.
Because the addresses on the forms were for the Defiance area, the Cuyahoga County elections board sent the registration forms to Defiance County's elections board, with a note to check the signatures for fraud.
I note this story never made national news and you need to use googles cache to find it now, so I wonder how many bribes it took to get blue on that map?
July 16th, 2005 at 9:52 pmyou can check my posts ED but I have never accused Bush, Cheney or anyone besides Rove of wrongdoing, at least in regards to the Valeria Plame outing. I am guessing that you felt you needed to cast out a red herring there.
Fake WTF are you talking about. If you want to go over possible stolen votes I can link you to lots of fun stuff about Ohio.
July 16th, 2005 at 10:01 pmThe Editors,
Since you are having some difficulty in admitting culpability,if you play a word association game with me maybe you may take a different position.
G. DUHbya Bush Richard M. Nixon
Dick Cheney Spiro Agnew
Karl Rove H. R. Halderman
Your Choice John Erlichman
Your Choice John Dean
Your Choice G. Gordon Liddy
Hilary Clinton* Gerald Ford
* My apologies to Hilary as I doubt she will pardon DUHbya.
When doing this little exercise remember the quack, waddle and other moves of the duck in terms "as if, it must be" and RMN's most famous utterance "I am not a crook!"
July 16th, 2005 at 10:08 pmFake,
I like how you call everyone a pussy on your blog but are too afraid to put down anything in your profile, not even I live in butscratch Nebraska, or anything.
you talk tough but it looks like bluster to me.
July 16th, 2005 at 10:19 pmEditors,
July 16th, 2005 at 10:33 pmYou haven't answered the question regarding the evidence line 47.
And soon it will be widely accepted by one and all that George Bush could never get elected to Dog Catcher without "help".
A member of the Franklin County election board said Friday that prosecutors are investigating whether a GOP political consultant tried to bribe the board's director to buy voting equipment made by his client, Diebold Inc.
The director, Matthew Damschroder, has told prosecutors that the consultant, Pat Gallina, came to his office in early 2004, offering him $10,000.
"Pat Gallina came into my office at the Board of Elections and said, 'I'm here to give you $10,000. Who should I direct it to?' " Damschroder recalled. "I said, 'Certainly not to me. But I'm sure the Franklin County Republican Party would appreciate a voluntary donation. That was my first mistake."
The law prohibits Damschroder from accepting political contributions on county property. He said he took the check home and mailed it to the party, where he had just completed a stint as executive director.
...
Damschroder told prosecutor O'Brien of Gallina's visit after his testimony was sought in a civil suit filed by one of Diebold's competitors, Election Systems and Software.
ES&S charges in that suit that Secretary of State Ken Blackwell improperly favored Diebold in selecting electronic voting machines for use statewide.
...
Gallina told him that he and Cummings agreed on the cut-rate price Diebold would charge the state for its machines, and that Gallina promised in return to give $50,000 to "Blackwell interests."
Carlo LoParo, a spokesman for Blackwell, called the claim "absolutely ridiculous," and that Cummings has not negotiated any part of the state's voting machine contracts.
...
Diebold executives had ceased contributing directly to political campaigns in October 2003, after the company president sparked an uproar by saying he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes" to secure President Bush's re-election.
Spokesman Mike Jacobsen said the firm pays Gallina - through Celebrezze & Associates - to work as a liaison on state and county government contracts.
"It's a separate company," he said. "Just because we contract with a lobbyist and they make a contribution doesn't mean, in any way, that we use them as some sort of political back door to curry political favor."
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/112150624541561.xml&coll=2&thispage=1
July 16th, 2005 at 10:38 pmWhat about the angry mob intimidating the voting board in Florida, that turned out to be a group of republican congressional staffers?
Will see if I can post a link to new article later if there is a huge demand for it.
July 16th, 2005 at 10:41 pmyes post a link to a Republican going to jail for vote fraud in 2004, let's see it. Not allegations, something proven. As for a profile, after the threats and BS from leftist locos, I'll pass on giving you anything for free, but I'll post some of your sides handywork from last weekend.
July 16th, 2005 at 11:41 pmYou haven't posted a link about a Democrat going to jail for vote fraud. You posted a link about a guy going to jail for filling out fraudulent voter registration forms.
Here's a line from the article the GOP sent me: "Just because you register someone 35 times doesn't mean they vote 35 times." Or here's another one: "Elections officials of both parties, however, say that bad registrations do not necessarily translate into election day fraud. New identification laws, as well as signature checks, make ballot-box stuffing extremely difficult."
From the GOP's own clip file. Registration irregularities are "not an attempt to commit fraud but rather the result of greedy workers who get paid for every voter they sign up, or already registered voters who forget and register again."
This is a story about a Republican going to jail for election fraud.
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2005/02/republican-consultant-sentenced-in-nh.php
We will have plenty of those relating to the 2004 election for you soon enough. Most of them are still being investigated. Keep yourself informed. You may be reading about these soon enough.
Nevada. Dan Burdish, former director of the state's Republican Party, filed a complaint to remove 17,000 voters from the roles because they had failed to file a change of address card. State law doesn't require it and, in fact, allows you to vote after moving. When asked why he did it, Burdish told the press, "I am looking to take Democrats off the voter roles."
Florida. Senior citizens in Democratic precincts are calling their election boards by the hundreds reporting that strangers, claiming to be from the Elections Office, are offering to hand-deliver their absentee ballots for them, even though there is no such program.
Wyoming. Secretary of State Joseph Meyer interpreted the statutes there to outlaw voter registration drives, like the kind where a group sets up a card table in a mall or library. One of Meyer's oldest friends, a classmate in both high school and college, is Dick Cheney.
Philadelphia. Three weeks before the election, a white Republican alderman named Matt Robb requested that 63 polling stations in African-American neighborhoods be relocated, thereby making it more confusing for 37,000 Democrat-leaning voters.
Florida. Once again, as in the 2000 election, the state compiled a list of felons to be barred from voting. Throughout this election year, Governor Jeb Bush's administration struggled to keep this list secret. After a lawsuit forced it into the open, people quickly saw that while some 23,000 Democrat-leaning black felons were barred from voting, almost the same number of Hispanic felons in Florida, who tend to vote Republican, were somehow not on the list.
Ohio. Secretary of State Ken Blackwell has ruled that anyone showing up in the wrong precinct will not be able to vote there, even by provisional ballot. Immediately afterward, people began to report odd phone calls telling voters their voting place had changed, sending them to the wrong precinct.
Arizona. Students at Arizona State University were told by a reporter at Fox News and the Republican county vote registrar, that registering students was a federal crime unless students plan to stay in Arizona "indefinitely" after graduation. The Supreme Court of the United States long ago ruled otherwise. [William Tell Overture concludes]
[2:39] There are some stories, though, where you really want to slow down and relish the details.
Take New Hampshire. On election day two years ago, the Democrats offered their voters a hot-line to call if they were disabled or aged and needed a ride to the polls. Early in the morning, the phone started ringing continuously, but when the volunteers answered, the callers would hang up. This jammed the lines, and legitimate callers couldn't get through. The Democrats complained to Verizon, which immediately traced every one of the calls to a Virginia company called "GOP Marketplace." After a police investigation, the pesident of that firm and the former executive director of the New Hampshire Republican Party both pled guilty to criminal charges and admitted that they'd hatched the plan to have callers from GOP Marketplace jam the line in order to prevent disabled and elderly Democrats from getting to the polls.
[3:30] But that's not the end of the story. The court documents refer ominously to an "unindicted co-conspirator," a national strategist, who arranged the entire dirty trick. The Democrats launched a civil suit to find out how far up the line the order went. In October, the Democrats' lawyer, Steve Gordon, scheduled a routine deposition of one of those involved. Twenty minutes before they were all to meet in Gordon's office, a call came in. It was the Justice Dept. of the United States in Washington, John Ashcroft's office, issuing an emergency halt to the deposition. The deposition would have to be postponed until after the election.
[4:10] This federal intrusion into local politics was so ham-fisted and extraordinary, that it got tongues wagging all over the state, and soon enough the tongues shook loose the identity of the mystery phone jammer as one of President Bush's top strategists, Jeffrey Tobin, the regional directory of Bush-Cheney 04 for the entire Northeast. Two weeks ago, he resigned.
[4:38] In the past, all these tactics would have been found out by the media weeks after the election, when the perpetrators would be long gone and the damage done, but this year the Internet is ready. Every day, new accounts of political scamming surface on blogs like Atrios or DailyKos. There's even an archive of dirty tricks maintained over at eriposte, and when you browse these sites, once hidden patterns suddenly appear. It's sort of like how historians say that serial murder was only discovered after the invention of the telegraph, which allowed cops to quickly share evidence. This year, the blogs have allowed us to see, for the very first time, the wide, wide world of serial vote suppression.
[5:20] For example, lets look at the accounts of two librarians, who've never met, from opposite sides of the country. In September, Meghan O'Flaherty, a librarian in Medford Oregon, got a letter.
O'Flaherty: The letter that came to me, it's on Sproul and Associates, Inc., letterhead. [Reading from the letter:] "Our firm has been contacted to help coordinate a national non-partisan voter registration drive. We would like to be able to register people to vote in front of your location."
That name, Sproul and Associates  I want you to remember that.
[5:53] Now let's leave Oregon and fly off to Pittsburgh Pennsylvania, where Holly McCullough at the Carnegie Library got a similar request: Nathan Sproul, for a non-partisan registration drive. But things weren't what they seemed. Holly, for example, had patrons complaining that the Sproul workers were quizzing them about who they would vote for.
[6:12] Unfortunately for Sproul and Associates, they tried to deceive the one group of Americans whose job is research: reference librarians. So both Meghan and Holly started digging, and here's what they found out. Sproul, it turns out, is a partisan group, run by Nathan Sproul, the former director of the Arizona Republican Party and the state's Christian Coalition. Sproul has received more than three million dollars in contracts this year from no less than the Republican National Committee to pump up party registration.
[6:40] And, these last two weeks, Sproul has been popping up everywhere, in as many as 10 states. Let's soar off to one of them  West Virginia. Lisa Bragg is a temp worker there who signed on with a half dozen other temps for work described as "customer service." She remembers it required a day of training.
Bragg: They presented us with some paperwork, and on one of the papers, on the top of the paper, it says Sproul and Associates. And, it's a script, a voter registration script.
Hitt: Um-hm.
Bragg: And it gives you different scenarios. One is for Bush and one is for Kerry, as to how you would speak to people.
Hitt: Right. Do you remember sort of what those scripts were?
Bragg: It's right in front of me. I kept these forms.
Hitt: Oh, really! Oh, great. Can you just, like, just if you were approaching me on the street, how would you…
Bragg: Ok, I can do that.
Hitt: How would it go? Ok.
Bragg: I would say, Hello, we are doing a simple survey. If the election were held today, would you vote for President Bush or Senator Kerry? If you were to say Bush, I would say, Great. Well this a very important election year, are you registered to vote at your current residence? If you would say no, I would say, Alright, can you please fill out this voter registration form?
Hitt: If I had said Kerry, what would you have said to me?
Bragg: Thank you very much for your time. I will record this.
Hitt: Oh, so you wouldn't hand the person a registration card at all.
Bragg: No.
[8:03] Lisa said she quit. She didn't like all the secrecy and covert operations involved.
Bragg: I mean another thing that said this is very suspicious and, and, very underhanded, was, on another sheet of paper it says, they were telling us that if the media approached us, to go to a payphone and call this number.
Hitt: Huh.
Bragg: They didn't want us talking to the media.
Hitt: And when you called that number, what was supposed, what were you supposed to just say?
Bragg: Uh. The media's coming! The media's coming! [Hitt laughs]
Bragg: I don't know. [Both laugh] Help! Help! The media's here! I don't know. I don't know, but I didn't want to be put in a position like that. To me, that just said this is not good, you know?
Hitt: Right.
Bragg: And, not only was I lying to people, you know, about what I was doing but  I was going to hide from the media? That's crazy.
[9:01] Ok, Tinkerbell? Are you ready to fly off to the next spot? Look! There's Nevada. This week, though, what happens in Vegas isn't staying there. It's the latest chapter in the Sproul story, one that will soon get told in criminal court.
A former Sproul worker has hired a lawyer named Paul Larsen, who explains the upcoming case:
Larsen: This young man didn't do the screening process and just registered everybody who, you know, would let him do it. This is according to his sworn affidavit. The organization indicated to him that, you know, we're not paying you to register Democrats and actually tore up, uh, several of them in front of him, which he retrieved from the trash and we provided to the court as exhibits.
[9:43] Two more former Sproul workers in Nevada and others in Oregon have stepped forward with allegations of more registrations being ripped up. No one knows how many may have been destroyed. So these people, all Democrats, will not be able to vote at all. They think they are registered, and may show up at the polls on election day to learn that there is no legal way, provisional ballot or not, that they could vote.
[10:12] In response to the Sproul story, Republicans in Nevada have said that Democrats engage in similar tactics. Chris Carr, the executive director of the state party, made public three Democrat registration forms with non-existent addresses. This is the way these stories go. Both sides make charges that seem roughly the same.
But on this issue, there is a qualitative difference between Democrats and Republicans. I called both camps and asked them to give me their worst stuff about the other side.
[10:40] Here's what the Republican spokesman, Scott Hoganson, said.
Hoganson: We have been compiling hundreds of pages of media reports from all over the country of documented cases of investigations of fraudulent voter registration cases. Everything from police in Ohio investigating a pro-Kerry effort to submit faulty registration forms and pay the people with crack cocaine, to a gentleman in Denver Colorado who brags and laughs on television about having registered to vote 35 times, just the number and degree of, of faulty and questionable and outright fraudulent registrations is really quite stunning in its depth and breadth.
[11:29] He sent me a copy. It's all newspaper clips, many of them unverified charges. There are a few that check out. There really was, for example, this white guy working for an outfit affiliated with the NAACP, who registered voters under names like Mary Poppins and Jeffrey Dahmer. And it's true, he was paid in crack cocaine. Very bad, and a great story. And then there was the Colorado guy, who registered himself 35 times. Also true, also very bad.
[11:59] But the reason you are going to be hearing about these two examples, over and over in the official Republican talking points in the next few days, is that that's the best they've got in their hundreds of pages.
[12:10] Strange[ly] enough, reading the very stories they sent often undercut[s] their main argument. For example, that Colorado guy? Here's a line from the article the GOP sent me: "Just because you register someone 35 times doesn't mean they vote 35 times." Or here's another one: "Elections officials of both parties, however, say that bad registrations do not necessarily translate into election day fraud. New identification laws, as well as signature checks, make ballot-box stuffing extremely difficult"
[12:42] Let me repeat: these are quotes from the official Republican vote-fraud press packet. Where there are real cases of registration fraud in this compendium, they usually involve poor people getting caught, not trying to fix the vote, but trying to squeeze a few extra bucks or, ok, a nice chunk of crack, out of these organizations that stupidly pay the temps a fee for each registration card turned in.
[13:07] But don't take my word for it. Again, the GOP's own clip file. Registration irregularities are "not an attempt to commit fraud but rather the result of greedy workers who get paid for every voter they sign up, or already registered voters who forget and register again."
[13:25] Meanwhile, the incidents of vote suppression on the Republican side involve massive numbers and, soon enough, actual jail time for high-ranking officials connected directly to the party. Chuck McGee, the executive director of the New Hampshire GOP is scheduled to be sentenced. Sproul is awaiting trail.
[13:43] Then this Florida felony purge list, which almost knocked 23,000 African-Americans off the voting roles, while keep arguably the same number of Republican-leaning felons free to vote. Recently the Sarasota Herald-Tribune broke the story that Governor Jeb Bush, the President's brother, ordered the state to proceed with the felony purge list even though the database company that put it all together informed him that it was so hopelessly flawed he should "pull the plug."
[14:10] So, are they all the same? Is the crack-head faking a handful of registrations for Jeffrey Dahmer the same kind of thing as wiping 17,000 voters in Nevada, 23,000 voters in Florida, 30,000 voters in Ohio completely off the rolls?
The other part of the ground war that's being waged this weekend is to make you think that they are.
July 17th, 2005 at 5:16 amEveryone knows that Florida, Ohio, Arizona and Nevada will be leading to some prosecutions and convinctions of Republicans in the months ahead. Just be patient. It may take until 2006, but you will have to eat those words.
While you wait, you should worry about this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/weekinreview/17korn.html?oref=login
One former Republican official who retains close ties to the White House said there could be a political cost for keeping Mr. Rove on board even if he is found to have done nothing illegal. "If Karl survives, he does so at the president's political expense," said the former official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he did not want to be seen as disloyal to Mr. Rove.
"George W. Bush came into office promising two tenets that are in competition now: straight talk, non-parsing - and loyalty," the former official said. "He's either got to choose loyalty or straight talk. He can't do both."....
"The Bush operating style is, you be loyal to me, I'll be loyal back to you - and I'm not going to let my critics think they can prompt a lot of resignations just by pointing out that we said we'd fire them," said Professor Stephen Walt, academic dean of the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard.
But, Mr. Walt said: "With Bush now being a lame duck, you start to wonder whether or not he'll have the same clout. At what point does the R.N.C. start weighing in and saying, 'Gee, we know he can't run again. But do we want to be saddled with a scandal that will make it harder for us to win in 2008?'"
July 17th, 2005 at 5:31 amBrian,
Of course all the evidence has not been made public. That's why it's asinine for anyone to be saying Rove broke the law, or is a traitor, or any of that.
All I'm saying is that given the information that is available now, Rove does not seem to have committed any wrongdoing. That does not imply that more information will not come out in the future.
July 17th, 2005 at 10:52 amfor The Editors, American Federalist Journal--
I just checked out your site. How come there's no place to leave a comment to the stories you highlight there? Not into free and open discussions on your own site? That's sure a great way to mislead visitors into thinking there are no dissenting viewpoints.
Seriously, why no comments? Wouldn't that add to the value of your authors' insights?
July 17th, 2005 at 11:49 am[...] Think Progress [...]
July 17th, 2005 at 12:23 pmJust curious:
Would Rove have had to sign the SF 312 when serving just as an advisor, without an official government position? Or would he have had to sign it only when appointed to an official position after the 2004 election?
July 17th, 2005 at 12:30 pmfor The Editors, American Federalist Journal–
I just checked out your site. How come there’s no place to leave a comment to the stories you highlight there? Not into free and open discussions on your own site? That’s sure a great way to mislead visitors into thinking there are no dissenting viewpoints.
Seriously, why no comments? Wouldn’t that add to the value of your authors’ insights?
Comment by dollars4dullards  July 17, 2005 @ 11:49 am
Actually, there is. Not that many people bother. It's called the inalienable right to blog or some such idiocy. Don't give him the traffic. Better he withers on the vine like a bad fruit.
July 17th, 2005 at 12:43 pmEd, let's disagree here. With the evidence out now, it seems Karl was involved in disclosing the identity of a covert agent. We can agree that legal proof of wrongdoing is not yet public, but at the moment, Karl's best hope is that when all the facts come to light thay will disprove the current perception. Because as the public facts stand, it seems Karl was involved in a breech of security clearance and every Republican is out to attack the victim.
I hope every Democratic hopeful is saving all these public statements denigrating Wilson and defending the leak of a covert anti-proliferation unit, they may prove useful in '06, '08, '10, and '12.
July 17th, 2005 at 2:07 pm"Of course all the evidence has not been made public. That’s why it’s asinine for anyone to be saying Rove broke the law, or is a traitor, or any of that."
So you would say Republicans were asinine during Clinton's second term?
July 17th, 2005 at 2:15 pm"With the evidence out now, it seems Karl was involved in disclosing the identity of a covert agent."
That is incorrect.
"So you would say Republicans were asinine during Clinton’s second term?"
Are you saying all the evidence of Clinton's wrongdoing isn't out yet? You mean here's more? *L*
July 17th, 2005 at 3:11 pmFIX THE HEADLINE TYPO.
Nondislcosure?
July 17th, 2005 at 4:15 pmNo, I'm saying evidence of Clinton's perjury were not out yet when Republicans were already calling him guilty. Then there's Whitewater (not guilty), and a host of other things.
Are you saying Rove was in no way involved in Novak's story? Never spoke about it, never heard about it before publication, was not involved with the key players in the matter? Public evidence shows he spoke about the leak with the key players, before Novak's article was published, and is therefore involved. Rove was Cooper's source. That makes him invovled. If you want to argue that Rove can be Cooper's source while not being involved, you're welcome to try.
July 17th, 2005 at 4:57 pm"No, I’m saying evidence of Clinton’s perjury were not out yet when Republicans were already calling him guilty. Then there’s Whitewater (not guilty), and a host of other things."
This is way too vague to comment on.
Rove was apparently involved the same way you are - by commenting about what he heard from journalists. Are you going to turn yourself in to the authorities?
July 17th, 2005 at 6:24 pmskippy stays on point, after noticing the repubbbs struggle to throw us off point.
and the point is: this administration lies.
July 17th, 2005 at 8:18 pmJust say yes, ED.
July 17th, 2005 at 8:31 pmThis administration doesn't lie. It's certainly not the den of deceit the last administration was.
July 17th, 2005 at 8:57 pmOK, so let me get this straight, you are saying that even if Rove didn't intend to "out" the agent, he is still guilty because it is a crime to reveal the name of a covert agent, even if he didn't actually name her and even if she is no longer on covert duty and hasn't been for about 7 years.
OK, I can live with that, he should probably lose his security clearance and his job.
Now what do you do with a couple of Senators whom actually did name a covert CIA agent, an agent who was still actively covert? I would think the penalty would even be more severe than Rove's case. http://www.pardonmyenglish.com/archives/2005/04/kerry_outs_cia.html
July 18th, 2005 at 1:28 amWhere was the media frenzy when John Kerry outed a CIA agent? What sanctions and penalties did he face? Is this a double standard?
Good point, Martin. Maybe that's why they wrote the intent in the clause. And yet the criminal investigation continues. That may be where the "fair game" comment comes in. Maybe a clue to the intent is also in the venue. Public hearings that got quite heated by anyone's account? Evidence for an honest accident. Double super secret meeting with reporters? Evidence, not an accident.
After all, we can't hang everyone with loose lips, can we?
July 18th, 2005 at 2:25 amRegarding #21, just so you know, Sara is not a psuedonym but actually the name of a real live woman, myself, not Fake or any of the other wackos as seen above. And thanks to all of you for getting back on the subject. Don't take the bait, that is exactly what they want! We can get mad, but by posting your maddened response, you are empowering the nutjobs. Have a swell Monday!
July 18th, 2005 at 3:20 pm"Thus, the argument by Rove allies, as reported by CNN, that “Rove was the recipient of information, not a provider� is irrelevant. Instead of saying “I heard that, too,� Rove’s answer to Novak should have been “no comment� when Novak said he heard Plame worked at the CIA. But that answer of course would have prevented him from engaging in the smear campaign against Wilson."
It really doesn't matter what Rove did or didn't do here, because I am sure that any "TRUE COMMIE LIB" can manage to twist anything in the laws in order to convice the public that he is guilty of some nuanced stipulation of this law.
As far as his partisipating in a SMEAR campain against Wilson, is it not curious that he only needs to tell the bonifide truth in order to make this puffed up beaurocrate look like the pathetic liar that he is?
I say shut the heck up about this whole stupid thing and find something of REAL substance to be concerned about!
July 27th, 2005 at 1:23 pm