BREAKING: Bloomberg Reporting That Rove, Libby May Be Subject To Perjury Charges
BREAKING: Bloomberg Reporting That Rove, Libby May Be Subject To Perjury Charges
Below is a Bloomberg article which is reporting that Karl Rove, senior adviser to the President and deputy chief of staff, and Lewis Libby, chief of staff to Vice President Cheney, are being investigated for having lied to a federal grand jury about how they learned the identity of a covert CIA agent, Valerie Plame (Murray Waas at the American Prospect wrote a similar story yesterday).
Rove, Libby Accounts in CIA Case Differ With Those of Reporters
July 22 (Bloomberg) — Two top White House aides have given accounts to a special prosecutor about how reporters first told them the identity of a CIA agent that are at odds with what the reporters have said, according to people familiar with the case.
Lewis “Scooter” Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff, told special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald that he first learned from NBC News reporter Tim Russert of the identity of Central Intelligence Agency operative Valerie Plame, the wife of former ambassador and Bush administration critic Joseph Wilson, one person said. Russert has testified before a federal grand jury that he didn’t tell Libby of Plame’s identity, the person said.
White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove told Fitzgerald that he first learned the identity of the CIA agent from syndicated columnist Robert Novak, according a person familiar with the matter. Novak, who was first to report Plame’s name and connection to Wilson, has given a somewhat different version to the special prosecutor, the person said.
These discrepancies may be important because Fitzgerald is investigating whether Libby, Rove or other administration officials made false statements during the course of the investigation. The Plame case has its genesis in whether any administration officials violated a 1982 law making it illegal to knowingly reveal the name of a covert intelligence agent.
‘Twisted’ Intelligence
The CIA requested the inquiry after Novak reported in a July 14, 2003, column that Plame recommended her husband for a 2002 mission to check into reports Iraq tried to buy uranium from Niger. Wilson, in a July 6, 2003, article in the New York Times, had said President George W. Bush’s administration “twisted” some of the intelligence on Iraq’s weapons to justify the war.
Robert Luskin, Rove’s attorney, said yesterday that Rove told the grand jury “he had not heard her name before he heard it from Bob Novak.” He declined in an interview to comment on whether Novak’s account of their conversation differed from Rove’s.
There also is a discrepancy between accounts given by Rove and Time magazine reporter Mat Cooper. The White House aide mentioned Wilson’s wife — though not by name — in a July 11, 2003, conversation with Cooper, the reporter said. Rove, 55, says that Cooper called him to talk about welfare reform and the Wilson connection was mentioned later, in passing.
Cooper wrote in Time magazine last week that he told the grand jury he never discussed welfare reform with Rove in that call.
Miller in Jail
One reporter, Judith Miller of the New York Times, has been jailed on contempt of court charges for refusing to testify before the grand jury about her reporting on the Plame case.
Cooper testified only after Time Inc. said it would comply with Fitzgerald’s demands for Cooper’s notes and reporting on the Plame matter, particularly regarding his dealings with Rove.
Libby, 54, didn’t return a phone call seeking comment.
The varying accounts of conversations between Rove, Libby and reporters come as new details emerge about a classified State Department memorandum that’s also at the center of Fitzgerald’s probe.
A memo by the department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research included Plame’s name in a paragraph marked “(S)” for “Secret,” a designation that indicated to anyone who read it that the information was classified, the Washington Post reported yesterday.
State Department Memo
The memo, prepared July 7, 2003, for Secretary of State Colin Powell, is a focus of Fitzgerald’s interest, according to individuals who have testified before the grand jury and attorneys familiar with the case.
The three-page document said that Wilson had been recommended for a CIA-sponsored trip to Africa by his wife, who worked on the CIA’s counter-proliferations desk.
Bush had said in his State of the Union message in January 2003 that Iraq was trying to purchase nuclear materials in Africa. Days after Wilson’s article — in which he said there was no basis to conclude that Iraq was trying to buy nuclear material in Africa and that the administration had exaggerated the evidence — the White House acknowledged that the Africa assertion shouldn’t have been included in the speech.
The memo summarizing the Plame-Wilson connection was provided to Powell as he left with Bush on a five-day trip to Africa. Fitzgerald is exploring whether other White House officials on the trip may have gained access to the memo and shared its contents with officials back in Washington. Rove and Libby didn’t accompany Bush to Africa.
One key to the inquiry is when White House aides knew of Wilson’s connection to Plame and whether they learned about it through this memo or other classified information.
Some Bush allies hope that the Fitzgerald investigation, which dominated the news in Washington for the first part of July, will subside as attention shifts to Bush’s nomination of Judge John Roberts to fill the first vacancy on the Supreme Court in 11 years.
Fitzgerald’s term of service lasts until October, which is also the length of time remaining for the grand jury hearing evidence in the case.
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Well, you know, it’s not the sex, it’s the lying!
Only this time, it’s lying about something that actually matters. It will be very instructive to see how wingnuts try to spin this one. Oh, I know! Fitzgerald’s secretly a Democrat, right?
July 21st, 2005 at 8:38 pmJust the tip of the iceberg, a preview of coming attractions. Be prepared to wave goodbye to DUHbya and the Right-wingnuts as they sing their finale: “You Took My Job and Shoved It!”
July 21st, 2005 at 8:50 pmThis is all well and good, and I suppose it’s a start, but we’re still miles away from the REAL issue – we were lied to about the need to go to Iraq. Let’s hope the snow keeps building.
July 21st, 2005 at 8:56 pmI guess MEMOS can be pretty important after all.
Gee…
July 21st, 2005 at 9:11 pmHow do you know a CONservative is lying? Just when they open their mouth and words come out, and that’s how you know…
July 21st, 2005 at 9:12 pmWhen will everything be linked for the rest of America to see that this administration sent us to war on false premises…
July 21st, 2005 at 9:19 pmthe DSM+Leaking of the CIA agent + Richard Clarks account + O’NeiL = impeach Bush, Cheney & Rice. Jail the other criminals!
when will america wake up and start impeachment proceedings????!!!!
Corollary too #5:
You can lead a conservative to logic but you can’t make him think.
July 21st, 2005 at 9:24 pmI never thought they could be this stupid.
As a Red Sox fan, it’s kinda like beating the Yankees (at least in game 5). We’ll see if we can take this all the way.
July 21st, 2005 at 9:30 pmI really want to know who was on Air Force one when the memo was received. Was Condi there? Who called who to and from the plane. What news media was there? Perhaps Miller? Why was Powell walking the aisle with the memo? Was he really pissed off?
July 21st, 2005 at 9:31 pmWould be interesting to know.
The nice thing about all this is we are now seeing the MSM starting to dig and compete for the next day’s strong breaking story. Even WSJ is getting into the act–tomorrow’s lead: Memo marked “Top secret”. Keep those sources coming, baby!!!!!
July 21st, 2005 at 9:34 pm[...] Wow, I must say Bloomberg is doing–by far–the best reporting on PlameGate and the rest of the leak investigation. Think Progress has the text of the article up here, and here’s an excerpt: “Two top White House aides have given accounts to the special prosecutor about how reporters told them the identity of a CIA agent that are at odds with what the reporters have said, according to persons familiar with the case. [...]
July 21st, 2005 at 9:37 pmWho’s got the answers?
Did Libby and Rove get any calls from administration sources during the five-day African trip?
Who went with Bush to Africa?
Parenthetically, my own feeling is that Bush learned who leaked the day it happened. He talked both to Rove and Libby and has known about their guilt for two years. But does Fitzgerald have the nerve to charge the son of a bitch with obstruction of justice?
July 21st, 2005 at 9:38 pmWho is leaking the evidence, drip by drip?
It’s not just Karl & Scooter that should go down — try bigger fish, like Cheney, Bush or Condi.
They all were on that plane.
July 21st, 2005 at 9:43 pm[...] UPDATE: And look at this, via Bloomberg: [...]
July 21st, 2005 at 9:47 pmOK, we are supposed to believe that Rove and Libby got the top secret info from the reporters and not the other way around? We have to also wonder why Rove and Libby never asked these reporters how they knew or why they had such info. Please! What a joke. How would the reporters know about this secret info unless high ranking white house officials told them. Who are the only known high ranking white house officials to have spoken to these reporters? You guessed it, Rove and Libby.
July 21st, 2005 at 9:55 pmOh. That’s Going to Hurt
Think Progress has an article that Bloomberg will be putting up:
July 21st, 2005 at 9:57 pmChangeAmerica.net: Drip, Drip, Drip. It took 2 years to impeach Nixon, but he was a lot smarter than Bush. I wonder how long he can hold on when half his staff are found to be TRAITORS. I personally like the name TRAITORGATE. I can’t wait till the beating of the drums brings some Republicans (who know they can’t win an election supporting traitors) come on board, and start asking questions. It is only a matter of time before the whole house crumbles under the weight of the Bush Administration’s lies, and crimes. I have read on many occasions that there is no way a crime this big (lying to the world to invade a country for false reasons) can not all come out in the wash eventually. Too many people hate Bush/Republicans, and are demanding answers to obvious questions, and known lies. It is only a matter of time….
http://www.ChangeAmerica.net
Stop Government Corruption Now!
July 21st, 2005 at 10:07 pmbush and cheney would never be on the same plane.’(safety thing)
July 21st, 2005 at 10:07 pmwhat i would like to REALLY know, was Bolton on that plane?
let’s get em all if we can.
bloggers unite!
The information on Rove is not knew. This was already put out on July 15:
http://www.tblog.com/templates/index.php?bid=reducto&static=1969717345
Rove stated basically that Novak told him about plame, but he (rove) already knew this and just corrobarated it to Novak. In the words he spoke, “so you know this too.”
When asked where he found out originally about the CIA operative, ROve said it may have been yet another journalist, but he just couldn’t remember.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:10 pmInteresting how both Rove and Libby seemed to have the same cover story, at odds with what the journalists said. Wasn’t Fitzgerald supposedly investigating the possibility of a conspiracy to obstruct justice?
JDW — the big deal here is the reporting that Rove’s story is conflicting with that of other witnesses.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:14 pmJust keep the VOLUME HI.
This is a total outrage and should be the subject of every conversation.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:15 pmWhere are the trolls?
July 21st, 2005 at 10:16 pmThe very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views – which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering. You have my condolences, Ambassador Joseph P Wilson III and your wife Valerie Plame.
Bush’s absolute power and incredible stupidity is a very dangerous combination, indeed. Germany’s King William I suffered from the same problem and started WW I. So did Germany’s Adolf Hitler starting WW II. We could also say the same for England’s King George III’s precipitation of our American Revolution.
Where is George Washington when you need him? Is Patrick Fitzgerald our latter day George Washington?
July 21st, 2005 at 10:17 pmComment by JDW
Some people just don’t get it.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:17 pmCheney is at the center of this whole thing. He pushed the CIA to cook intelligence, he wanted this war more than anything if not for his buddies at Halliburton. And now he is nowhere to be found.
Why is it the man who was front and center pushing for this war is not out defending Rove, or making some kinda comment?
July 21st, 2005 at 10:23 pmAlso, the Wall Street Journal will report tomorrow, that the secret memo about Valerie Plame was a TOP SECRET memo, which means that nobody, not even a friendly country can look at it. If it is true, Rove and possibly Libby as well, could be brought up on treason charges.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:23 pmTannen,
This Talking Points Memo Cafe reader submitted the attached press gaggle transcript from the AF1 trip the day Powell got the State Dept. report. According to this, it was Condi who went to the press to smear Wilson, though Ari was there too. Worth reading…
July 21st, 2005 at 10:23 pmWilliam, We can only start impeachment proceedings if we win back the House of Representatives in 2006. The republicans, (or I should say the neocons and the republicans in congress who are either toadies or are being blackmailed into submission (Gannon/Guckert?)), not only own torture, but also treason. We need to hang this double albatross on their necks in the run up to the 2006 midterm election.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:24 pmBUSH is the leaker!
July 21st, 2005 at 10:25 pmHe’s the one with the vengeful, spiteful, arrogant temper!
But he told only Rove, who will DIE—for real—before he rats on Dubya.
I appears that this bag o’crap keeps getting bigger and bigger. I’m sure the party that is originally responsible for the leak s#it a brick when the story first broke and they are hoping it will go away soon. Was the Supreme Court nomination just a diversion? When will Osama be led down Pennsylvania Avenue? I believe he has been tucked away at Camp David for quite sometime waiting to be sprung on us when the time is right (or the when the ultimate diversion is needed).
July 21st, 2005 at 10:25 pmThe problem with at least the Rove side of this is that you have two different conflicting stories about what Rove testified. One source claims that Rove testified that he only corrobarted with Novak and actually learned about the operative from some unknown journalist.
http://www.tblog.com/ templates/ index.php?bid=reducto&static=1969717345
On the other hand Bloomburg (new) source claims that Rove testified that he actually learned it first from Novak himself. So there are two different sources for Roves supposed testimony. The problem is which one do you believe? Or are they both wrong?
July 21st, 2005 at 10:27 pmETA: I definitely agree with the thought posted above about Gannon/Guckert. Big-time blackmail.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:28 pm“…neocons and the republicans in congress who are either toadies or are being blackmailed into submission (Gannon/Guckert?….”
Actually, investigative reporter Jason Leopold broke this story last week. See http://www.jasonleopold.blogspot.com
It also ran on a bunch of other news sites.
Did Karl Rove Lie to the FBI?
By Jason Leopold
(c) 2005 Jason Leopold
Looks like Karl Rove did break the law, the same federal law that got Martha Stewart sentenced to six months in prison.
It now appears that Rove, President Bush’s chief of staff, may have lied to the FBI in October 2003â€â€a federal crimeâ€â€when he was questioned by federal agents who were investigating the source responsible for leaking the true identity of an undercover CIA operative to the media.
During questioning by the FBI about his role in the Valerie Plame affair, Rove told federal agents that he first started sharing information about Plame’s undercover status to reporters and White House officials after conservative columnist Robert Novak identified her as a covert spy in his column on July 14, 2003.
But Rove wasn’t truthful with the FBI what with the recent disclosure of Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper’s emails, which reveal that Rove spoke to Cooper about Plame nearly a week before Novak’s column was published. Rove, we now know, was the source for Cooper’s own July 2003 story identifying Plame as a CIA operative. Cooper’s email correspondence with his editor proves as much. In addition, according to previously published news reports, Rove spoke to a half-dozen other reporters about Plame as early as June 2003.
“It was, KR said, (former Ambassador Joseph) wilson’s wife, who apparently works at the agency on wmd [weapons of mass destruction] issues who authorized (Wilson’s) trip,” Cooper’s July 11, 2003, email to his editor, obtained by Newsweek, says. “Wilson’s wife is Plame, then an undercover agent working as an analyst in the CIA’s Directorate of Operations counterproliferation division. (Cooper later included the essence of what Rove told him in an online story.) The e-mail characterizing the conversation continues: “not only the genesis of the trip is flawed an[d] suspect but so is the report. he [Rove] implied strongly there’s still plenty to implicate iraqi interest in acquiring uranium fro[m] Niger … ”
Moreover, evidence suggests that President Bush was aware as early as October 2003 that Rove and I. Lewis “Scooter� Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff, were the sources who leaked Plame’s undercover CIA status to reporters and after the president was briefed about the issue the president said publicly that the source of the leak will never be found.
Furthermore, a few aides to Condoleeza Rice, then head of the National Security Council, may have played a role as well by being the first officials to learn about Plame’s role as a CIA operative and then gave that information to Rove, Libby and other senior administration officials who used it to undermine former Ambassador Joseph Wilson’s credibility.
Wilson, an outspoken critic of the Iraq war had alleged that President Bush misspoke when he said in his January 2003 State of the Union address that Iraq had tried to acquire yellow-cake uranium from Niger.
Wilson knew the statement was false because was recommended by Plame, his wife, to travel to Niger more than a year earlier to investigate the yellow-cake claims. Rove, Libby and other administration officials sought to discredit Wilson because they claimed that Wilson had said publicly that he was sent to Niger at the request of Cheney’s office. Cheney did in fact contact the CIA at first to arrange the mission but Plame ultimately recommended Wilson. Still, in February 2002, Wilson traveled to Niger and reported back to the CIA that intelligence reports saying Iraq attempted to purchase uranium from Niger were false.
Here’s the fullest account yet of how the events leading up to the disclosure of Plame’s identity unfolded, and how it all leads back to Rove. But first let’s get to the real story behind the leak, the catalyst behind this issue.
Bush and senior administration officials mislead Congress and the public into supporting a war predicated on the fact that Iraq was concealing weapons of mass destruction that threatened its neighbors in the Middle East and posed a grave threat to the United States.
In his State of the Union address in January 2003, two months prior to the Iraq war, Bush said Iraq tried to buy yellow-cake uranium, the key component used to build a nuclear bomb, from Niger. The uranium claim was the silver bullet in getting Congress to support military action two months later. To date, no weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq and the country barely had a functional weapons program, according to a report from the Iraq Survey Group.
Like other officials who were attacked for speaking out against Bush’s rationale for war, including former Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill and counterterrorism expert Richard Clarke, both of whom provided evidence that Bush and senior members of his administration of being obsessed with attacking Iraq shortly after 9/11 and manipulating intelligence reports as a way to get Congress and the public to back the war, the White House launched a full-scale attack against Wilson beginning in June 2003, when Wilson was quoted anonymously in various news reports as saying that the 16 words in Bush State of the Union address alleging that Iraq bought yellow-cake uranium from Niger was totally untrue.
On July 14, 2003, Novak first disclosed Plame by name in his column as well as her undercover CIA status, citing two “senior administration officials.� Novak said Wilson wasn’t trustworthy because his wife recommended him for the trip to Niger.
According to a preliminary FBI investigation, White House officials, including Rove and Libby, first learned of Plame’s name and CIA status in June 2003 when questions surrounding Wilson’s Niger trip were first brought to the attention of Cheney’s aides by reporters, according to an Oct 13, 2003 report in the Washington Post.
“One reason investigators are looking back (to June 2003) is that even before Novak’s column appeared, government officials had been trying for more than a month to convince journalists that Wilson’s mission wasn’t as important as it was being portrayed,â€? the Post reported.
Several CIA officers assigned to the White House and working mainly on the National Security staff may have been the first individuals to have learned that Plame was an undercover operative and that Wilson was her husband. According to Oct. 13, 2003 story in the Post, a “former NSC staff member said one or more of those officers may have been aware of the Plame-Wilson relationship� and briefed Cheney and Rove about her status, that she was married to Wilson and that she recommended him for the fact-finding trip to Niger.
A May 6, 2003, column by Nicholas Kristoff in the New York Times was the first public mention of Wilson’s trip to Niger but Kristoff’s column did not identify Wilson by name. Kristoff had been on a panel with Wilson four days earlier and said that Wilson told him that intelligence documents that proved Iraq attempted to buy uranium from Niger were forged and the White House should have known that before allowing Bush to include it in his State of the Union speech.
Wilson told Kristoff he could write about his trip and the forged documents but asked the columnist not to print Wilson’s name as the source behind those statements. The column also mentioned for the first time the alleged role Cheney’s office played in sending Wilson to Niger.
“That was when Cheney aides became aware of Wilson’s mission and they began asking questions about him within the government,â€? the Post reported, citing an unnamed administration official.
Shortly after Kristoff’s column appeared in the Times, a handful of reporters started searching for Kristoff’s anonymous source.
At this time Wilson spoke to two congressional committees that were investigating why Bush had mentioned the uranium allegation in his State of the Union address. Also in early June, Wilson told his story to The Washington Post on the condition that he not be named. On June 12, 2003, the Post published a detailed account of Wilson’s trip and the fact that there was no truth to the claims that Iraq had tried to purchase yellow-cake uranium from Niger.
Beginning that week, officials in the White House, Cheney’s office, the CIA and the State Department repeatedly played down the importance of Wilson’s trip in interviews with several reporters, and his oral report to the CIA, which was turned into a 1 ? page CIA intelligence memo for the White House and the National Security Council. By tradition, Wilson’s identity as the source, even though he traveled to Niger on behalf of the CIA, was not disclosed.
As soon as the Post’s story was published a number of officials in the Bush administration became concerned and started questioning who Wilson was and why he was criticizing the president, a senior administration official told the Post.
By Wilson’s own account, he said he ratcheted up the pressure on the White House to come clean about its error in giving credence to the Niger uranium claims by calling some present and former senior administration officials who knew then National Security adviser Condoleezza Rice, asking his colleagues to tell Rice she was flat wrong in saying on NBC’s “Meet the Press” on June 8 that there may be some intelligence “in the bowels of the agency” but that there was no doubt the uranium story was true.
Wilson said Rice told him through intermediaries that she was uninterested in what he had to say and urged Wilson to tell his story publicly if he wanted to state his case. So he did.
On July 6, 2003 Wilson was interviewed for a story that appeared in the Washington Post and accused the White House of “misrepresenting the facts on an issue that was a fundamental justification for going to war.” That same day he wrote an op-ed in the New York Times which said that “some of the intelligence related to Iraq’s nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat.”
The very next day, July 7, 2003, the White House admitted it had erred in including the references about uranium in Bush’s State of the Union speech. Two days later, two top White House officials disclosed Plame’s identity to at least six Washington journalists, an administration official told The Post in an article published Sept. 28, 2003.
Those two officials were Karl Rove and Lewis Libby.
“The source elaborated on the conversations last week, saying that officials brought up Plame as part of their broader case against Wilson,� the Post reported in the Sept. 28, 2003 story.
On July 12, 2003, two days before Novak wrote his column, a Washington Post reporter was told by an administration official that the White House had not paid attention to the former ambassador’s CIA-sponsored trip to Niger because it was set up as a boondoggle by his wife, an analyst with the agency working on weapons of mass destruction. Plame’s name was never mentioned and the purpose of the disclosure did not appear to be to generate an article, but rather to undermine Wilson’s report.
That source was Karl Rove and the unidentified reporter was Walter Pincus who covers the White House for the Washington Post.
Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper’s emails show that Rove gave Cooper the same exact information about Plame that he gave to the Post. Moreover, Rove called several other reporters that week in July 2003 and reportedly said that Wilson’s wife was “fair game� because Novak had already blown her undercover status by identifying her in his column.
A day earlier, on July 11, 2003, the day Rove spoke with Cooper about Plame on what Cooper referred to as “double secret super background,” Cooper also interviewed Libby on the record about Wilson’s trip to Niger.
Libby told TIME: “The Vice President heard about the possibility of Iraq trying to acquire uranium from Niger in February 2002. As part of his regular intelligence briefing, the Vice President asked a question about the implication of the report. During the course of a year, the Vice President asked many such questions and the agency responded within a day or two saying that they had reporting suggesting the possibility of such a transaction. But the agency noted that the reporting lacked detail. The agency pointed out that Iraq already had 500 tons of uranium, portions of which came from Niger, according to the International Atomic Energy Administration (IAEA). The Vice President was unaware of the trip by Ambassador Wilson and didn’t know about it until this year when it became public in the last month or so. ”
A few months later, on Oct. 7, 2003, President Bush and his spokesman, Scott McClellan, said during a press conference that the White House ruled out three administration officialsâ€â€Rove, Libby and Elliot Abrams, a senior official on the National Security Council, as sources of the leakâ€â€a day before the FBI questioned the three of themâ€â€based on questions McClellan said he asked the men.
A day later Rove told FBI investigators that he spoke to journalists about Plame for the first time after Novak’s column was publishedâ€â€a lie, it appearsâ€â€based on Time reporter Matthew Cooper’s emails, the contents of which were reported by Newsweek earlier this month.
That same day in October 2003, in an unusual move, Bush said he doubted that a Justice Department investigation would ever turn up the source of the leak, suggesting that it was a waste of time for lawmakers to question the administration and for reporters to follow up on the story.
“I mean this is a town full of people who like to leak information,” Bush told reporters following a meeting with Cabinet members on Oct. 7, 2003. “And I don’t know if we’re going to find out the senior administration official. Now, this is a large administration, and there’s lots of senior officials. I don’t have any idea.â€?
Sen. Frank Lautenberg, Democrat of New Jersey, responded to the president’s statement in an Oct. 10, 2003, interview with the New York Times.
“If the president says, ‘I don’t know if we’re going to find this person,’ what kind of a statement is that for the president of the United States to make?” Lautenberg asked. “Would he say that about a bank-robbery investigation?â€?
During this time the White House was facing a deadline on turning over documents, emails and phone logs to Justice Department officials probing whether or not the leak came from the White House. Bush said that the White House could invoke executive privilege and withhold some “sensitive� documents related to the leak case leading many Democrats to believe that the White House had something to hide.
At the same time, the White House first started to lay the groundwork for a defense, specifically related to the role Rove played in the leak and whether he or anyone else in the administration knew Plame was covert CIA operative and intentionally blew her cover in order to undercut Wilson’s credibility.
On Oct. 6, 2003, McClellan, in response to questions about whether Rove was Novak’s source, tried to explain the difference between unauthorized disclosure of classified information and “setting the record straight” about Wilson’s public criticism of the administrations handling of intelligence on Iraq.
“There is a difference between setting the record straight and doing something to punish someone for speaking out,â€? McClellan said. “There were some statements made (by Wilson) and those statements were not based on facts,” McClellan said. “And we pointed out that it was not the vice president’s office that sent Mr. Wilson to Niger. (CIA Director George) Tenet made it very clear in his statement that it was people in the counter proliferation area that made that decision on their own initiative.”
The difference is crucial in that knowingly making an unauthorized leak of classified information is a federal crime. But repeating the leak when it has already been reported may not be considered a serious offense.
Still, when the Justice Department failed to convict Martha Stewart on insider trading charges, prosecutors had enough evidence to convince a jury that the style maven lied to federal investigators and obstructed justice. She wound up with a felony conviction and six months in jail.
Now that the evidence shows that Karl Rove and others White House officials lied to federal investigators about what they knew and when they knew it maybe they too will meet the same fate.
Jason Leopold is the author of the explosive memoir, News Junkie, to be released in the spring of 2006 by Process/Feral House Books. Visit Leopold’s website at http://www.jasonleopold.com for updates.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:33 pmFitz is going to have to soften the public if he is going to deal a serious blow to Bush directly. Perhaps the polls will help him along.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:34 pmLet’s hope Fitz is truly dedicated to the law and to the USA.
FUN FACTS ABOUT THE PATRIOT ACT
* The “patriot” in The Patriot Act is actually an acronym for “Phat Acronym That Really Is Orwellian, Though”.
* There are many clauses in The Patriot Act that concerns people, but all agree the scariest part of is its suspicious name.
* The Patriot Act was passed 99-1 in the Senate soon after 9/11, with the onc Senator voting against it being labeled an enemy combatant and indefinitely imprisoned as ordered by The Patriot Act.
* The Patriot Act is out there for anyone to read, but, according to The Patriot Act, that is considered a suspicious activity and makes you a person of interest.
* The Patriot Act allows the FBI to look at library records. This power has yet to be used, though, since pretty much no one uses a library anymore.
* The FBI wanted The Patriot Act to allow them to look at Google searches, but Google protested saying they only work in compliance with Communist countries to oppress people.
* Many people have raised objections to The Patriot Act – some of whom have even read it. According to The Patriot Act, these people are enemy combatants, and you must shoot them on site or be considered an enemy of the state yourself.
* The Patriot Act gives great new surveillance technology to the FBI, allowing them to spy on you through what looks like a period at the end of this sentence.
* Stop staring at that period!
* Yeah, they still need to use an exclamation point for audio.
* The Patriot Act allows more wire-tapping ability for law enforcement, something that’s been denounced by numerous people so boring that you couldn’t pay people to spy on them.
* The provisions of The Patriot Act has helped law enforcement capture numerous terrorists and, through a mix-up, one terrier.
* President Bush is currently urging Congress to renew The Patriot Act. This doesn’t mean he supports it, though, as, according to The Patriot Act, the President must urge its renewal or be considered an enemy combatant.
* If ever attacked by The Patriot Act, imprison yourself indefinitely to steal its thunder.
* While The Patriot Act is immune to most attacks, it is scared of fire.
* In a fight between Aquaman and The Patriot Act, Aquaman would be locked up indefinitely and then be forgotten. After years of solitary confinement, he’d begin to believe he has the power to talk to cockroaches… which is just crazy!
* Some judges have ruled against clauses in The Patriot Act. They were all mysteriously killed as dictated by the Patriot Act.
* I guess the deaths aren’t so mysterious since they were ordered by The Patriot Act, but The Patriot Act says you need to act like they were mysterious or you will be considered an enemy combatant.
* According to The Patriot Act, the fact that you consider The Patriot Act an enemy and want to find information about makes you an enemy combatant. In compliance with The Patriot Act, I have now sent your IP address to the FBI. Thanks for participating in this IMAO sting operation, and may your indefinite detention be a pleasant one.
By Frank J
This satire was used without the permission of IMAO.
As for Rove, blah blah blah, we will see kiddies.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:34 pmNo goal.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:39 pmHeh, heh, heh. Gotta love it.
Murderous warmongering yellow-dog traitor vs. the blowjob.
Now we’ll see whether all that flag hugging has taught Republicans what it means to love their country.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:39 pmWhat was that Bruce Cockburn song about “rocket launchers”…
July 21st, 2005 at 10:44 pmPatrick Fitzgerald will go down in history as America’s first hero of the 21st century, a champion of justice and the rule of law!
July 21st, 2005 at 10:46 pmWhat was that Bruce Cockburn song about “rocket launchers�…
Comment by Bob the Niihilist  July 21, 2005 @ 10:44 pm
great song. If I had a rocket launcher, some sonuvabitch would die.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:55 pmGood!
Throw their asses in a Federal prison to rot!
Hey, where are the FOXNews(GOP-TV) trolls when an announcement like this comes down the pike?
I guess they’re waiting for their talking points.
. . .
July 21st, 2005 at 10:59 pmThe Rove pool has started.
Make your guess on Karl Rove’s sentence in the Whack-a-Mole Contest today!
July 21st, 2005 at 11:05 pmFox News is probably reporting on real news.
Where were all of you who are so outraged at lying politicians when Bill “I never had sexual relations with that woman” Clinton was caught lying under oath by the entire country? Defending him? Perjury is perjury. I thought we were a country of equal protection — if Clinton can perjure himself and walk free, then all perjurers should be able to walk.
Oh, and as far as GW Bush being dumb — how does his whipping the lefties asses in two elections in a row (along with a huge Congressional victory in 2002) make the Dems look? For a party that picked Howard “Secreaming Mimi” Dean as its leader, I would be careful at who is calling who dumb!
And, finally, where is George Washington when we need him? He’s in the White House having dinner with Laura :)
July 21st, 2005 at 11:12 pmThings Are Getting Mighty Curious…
…in the PlameGate department. First, Think Progress has the summary of a Bloomberg story claiming that Libby Lewis told Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald that he was told of Plame’s identity by Tim Russert of Meet the Press fame, a claim that Russert d…
July 21st, 2005 at 11:15 pm?Bruce Cockburn that was weak when it came out. Why fantasize about weapons you can’t get, hell I had my copy of the Anarchists Cookbook at 15. If you hate us so much dooo something girlyman.
No goal.
Comment by Brian
and Gore won in 2000, I’m seeing a trend here.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:19 pmSo let me get this straight. Karl Rove is a liar because his account is different than two MSM reporters? What a joke. You lefties are absolutely pathetic! Keep it up schmucks.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:23 pmStarts With a P
And ends with Rove? We’re talking perjury, folks. ThinkProgress and American Prospect have the story.
ThinkProgress runs a Bloombert story with the following.
Two top White House aides have given accounts to the special prosecutor about how …
July 21st, 2005 at 11:25 pmNot only is Fitzgerald a Democrat party mole, he is a gay man. And French. Really, really French. The give away, as anyone should have known at once, is his black love child.
That said, Miller was NOT on the plane. And as I understand it, the memo that Was on the plane did not name Valerie Plame but only Joe Wilson’s wife. Someone went from what was in the memo to ADDING her undercover NOC identity. Someone seriously was trying to out her.
The CIA agents and insiders who will testify Friday should have a lot more to say about the vast consequences of this treason to our undercover ops and the lives of our agents and their international associates.
The Demagogue and his maladministration are not just criminals, not just determined to subvert democracy, destroy the institutions of this nation, and destroy the middle class, they are stupid. Incompetent. They’ve got what I call the Midass Touch– everything they touch turns to santorum.
Does ANYONE think Bush has not known who did this? Does anyone think he was forced into war against his will? With perjury, conspiracy, treason, coverup, and obstruction within a finger’s reach of both Bush and Cheney, with Condi and perhaps Bolton up to their eyebrows in these pre-war crimes as well, how long can the two misleaders escape the consequences of their viciousness?
July 21st, 2005 at 11:29 pmThe crime at the bottom of it all: 9/11
On Friday, July 22, 2005, one year to the day after the release of the “9/11 Commission Report,” Project Censored founder, Dr. Peter Phillips will lead a National Press Club briefing entitled “The Failure of the 9/11 Commission Report and the Mainstream Media’s Disregard.” The briefing will feature scores of detailed examples of the Commission’s flawed findings, self-censorship, misrepresentations and conflicts of interest that call the accuracy and integrity of their entire investigation into doubt.
Time: 1:00-2:30 PM, Friday, July 22, 2005 Place: Holeman Lounge, National Press Club, Washington, DC Sponsor: DC Emergency Truth Convergence http://truthemergency.us
July 21st, 2005 at 11:36 pmIsn’t leaking classified material, no matter what it may contain, in time of war an act of treason? Nothing is fair game. To the rocket-scientist above, I bet Rove would rather had a sexual contact than gossiping classifieds.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:39 pmhey mike…
let me see if i understand you. pergury is your standard, and dismissal is a problem? so….if rove is guilty of perjury, you want him to get off like bill clinton?
now i REALLY understand the GOP threshold for ethics violations…
thanx mike…you as_holes despised clinton, and now you use him as a benchmark…???
moron…
July 21st, 2005 at 11:41 pmhmmm, Duhbyas Chief of Staff and Cheney’s Chief of Staff… makes it hard to believe that Bush and Cheney weren’t aware of what was going on with the situation. Even recent cases against powerful CEO’s, where they plead ignorance and/or stupidity, their stories didn’t stand up…
The easiest, most logical answers are usually the correct ones. These guys all knew what was going down. Throw the lot of them in jail… traitors!
July 21st, 2005 at 11:43 pmIt appears to me the more spin we hear from the White house, the more stories come out totally refuting the spin doctoring, this administration has been coasting too long with their veils of secrecy and villifying anyone who questions their policies so it is about time that they have finally got caught
July 21st, 2005 at 11:46 pmhopefully it will steamroll as watergate did, because this country is becoming dangerously divided and our president and his band of merrymakers is to blame!
[...] Bloomberg Reporting That Rove, Libby May Be Subject To Perjury Charges Two top White House aides have given accounts to the special prosecutor about how reporters told them the identity of a CIA agent that are at odds with what the reporters have said, according to persons familiar with the case. [...]
July 21st, 2005 at 11:51 pmTwo Rove Lies Exposed:
ROVE CAUGHT IN LIE
ROVE TESTIFIED TO FEDERAL INVESTIGATORS THAT HE LEARNED PLAME’S -NAME- FROM NOVAK:
Times says that Rove has told federal investigators that he received a telephone call from columnist Bob Novak on July 8, 2003. In that call, the source tells the Times, Rove “learned from the columnist the -NAME- of . . . Valerie Plame, and the circumstances in which her husband, former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, traveled to Africa to investigate possible uranium sales to Iraq.”
YET A YEAR LATER, ROVE CLAIMS HE DID NOT KNOW THE AGENT’S NAME:
Rove “I didn’t know her NAME.� CNN -2004
THIS CONTRADICTS HIS TESTEMONY ABOVE THAT HE KNEW HER NAME LONG BEFORE HE SPOKE TO COOPER.
UNDERSTAND THAT ROVE MAY NOW FACE PERJURY CHARGES. HE LIED ABOUT HIS TESTOMONY.
ROVE CAUGHT IN ANOTHER LIE:
Report Shows Rove May Have Lied to FBI, A Felony
Friday, 15 July 2005, 3:24 pm
Opinion: Jason Leopold
Report Shows Karl Rove May Have Lied to Federal Agents, a Federal Crime, During Oct 2003
Testimony Into CIA Agent Leak
By Jason LeopoldLooks like Karl Rove did break the law, the same federal law that got Martha
Stewart sentenced to six months in prison.
It now appears that Rove, President Bush’s chief of staff, may have lied to the FBI in October
2003â€â€a federal crimeâ€â€when he was questioned by federal agents investigating who was responsible
for leaking information about a covert CIA operative to the media.
During questioning by the FBI about his role in the Plame affair, Rove told federal agents that
he only started sharing information about Plame with reporters and White House officials for the
first time after conservative columnist Robert Novak identified her covert CIA status in his
column on July 14, 2003.
But Rove wasn’t truthful with the FBI, what with the recent disclosure of Time magazine reporter
Matthew Cooper’s emails, which reveal Rove as the source for Cooper’s own July 2003 story
identifying Plame as a CIA operative, and show that Rove spoke to Cooper nearly a week before
Novak’s column was published and, according to previously published news reports, spoke to a
half-dozen other reporters about Plame…
July 21st, 2005 at 11:51 pmPerjury Implications for Karl Rove, Scooter Libby
Two top White House aides have given accounts to the special prosecutor about how reporters told them the identity of a CIA agent that are at odds with what the reporters have said, according to persons familiar with the case……
July 21st, 2005 at 11:53 pmWhat a bunch of arrogant dumbasses, to pick a fight with the CIA was the height of stipidity. Where do you think these leaks are comming from? Straight from the moles who got double crossed I bet. Why do you think they were furiously purging the CIA once Porter Goss came aboard? Looks like the jokes on you Bush. This man will be reviled in history and his “architect” placed on the trash heap of failed propagandists past.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:59 pmSo Fitzgerald’s gay AND French?
Does he sing Sondheim too?
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:03 amMaybe when this is cleared up we can discover how Senaotor Kennedy got away with drowning a woman in 1969 and not going for help (except from his lawyers) for ten hours.
Perhaps Bloomberg can touch on that later as “Breaking News”
I do enjoy reading Democrats screaming about injustice while failing to recognize it in their own party for 36 years.
Rebuttal please?
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:09 amtHIS IS NO LEAK…IT IS A CONSPIRACY TO DESTROY THOSE WHO WERE TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT WMD AND NUCLEAR CAPABILITIES OF IRAQ. No leak…just a down right dirty trick by the master of dirty tricks, Karl Rove. He intentionally revealed an agents status…a felony and then conspired to cover it up and to obstruct justice, and perjure himself to grand jury. Measure the orange jumpsuits! For Bush, when did he know and what did he do about it?
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:10 amimpeachment????
> Rove says that Cooper called him to talk about welfare reform and the Wilson connection was mentioned later in passing.
See, I love (and by “love” I mean “loathe with a contempt as white hot as a thousand suns”) that TurdBlossom’s defense is that he was cavalier with top secret, covert information, rather than intentionally revealing it.
Even if I believed that to be true, it would be no defense.
I wonder if Karla is still curious as to what law Mr. Rove broke?
And, Mike D., by your logic, no murderers should be prosecuted because OJ was acquitted. I realize the Republican Party is an ethics free zone, but you really ought to think your arguments out a bit better, Mandrake.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:11 amThis is not Plamegate it is TreasonGate! Lets start using language to our advantage for a change!
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:16 amThat’s gonna be the next phase of the spin by the right, there gonna start smearing fitzgerald, you cant trust any of his finding’s he’s a part of the radacial gay lobby.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:18 amIs that all you got? Teddy boy 36 years ago? Jeesh dude, wake up man, you missed the 80’s and Iran Contra, the October Surprise and then the pardons, you slept through the partisan impeachment of a duely elected president in the 90’s, and evidently you have fallen off the bridge to the 21st century. 36 years ago is past the statute of limitations for outrage. Wake up!
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:18 amAbe, do you get that upset over William Shatner too?
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:22 am*Ahem*
RULE OF LAW! RULE OF LAW! RULE OF LAW!
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:22 amHey, wtmoore,
What I am really saying, butt wipe, is what is good for Wet Willy Clinton is good for Karl Rove and any others, Democrat or Republican. After all, if the President cannot be believed while he is testifying under oath, then why should any others be held accountable?
I was simply asking where were your ethical sensibilites when Clinton was commiting his indiscretions? Perhpas you were under the desk with Monica.
What it really boils down to, crap face, is that you and millions of others of your left wingnuts still cannot get over the election of 2000.
Wait until 2008. Viva Jeb Bush!!!
That’s all I got to say about that…
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:25 amAbe,
Before you hurl stones of hipocrisy, how do you justify Laura Bush running over her boyfriend in a car and get away with it. And while we’re at it, neither Kennedy nor Ms.Bush were responsible for an illegally misrepresented war – an act of treason. If you think the stupid actions of a younger man/woman which resulted in the ‘reckless’ death of an individual is the same as the wilful intent to lie, perjure and go to war while attempting to destroy anyone who tells the truth is the same thing – then you’re a sadly twisted and stupid little retard…
Or in ‘christian’ terms, 2 wrongs don’t make a right, so if you’re as ‘righteous’ as stupid conservatives like yourself always claim – why do rationalize your screw ups by simply pointing out it’s the same as what the other side commits? Frankly it just shows how little you actually believe in this moral superiority and how quick you are to dismiss your own failures as justifiable. Grow a spine, and learn to admit when you and your party are stupid idiots!
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:25 amMike,
If you believe someone denying an affair is the same as a willful intent to smear and destroy someone who was vital to american security, simply because they told the truth when asked, then you are such a partisan idiot that you should just send emails to yourself – because to those of us capable of using logic you look like a complete moron!
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:29 amHey, Ryan!
Get over it you lost 2000, 2002, and 2004, and, with you and idiots like you in the Democratic Party, Republicans will win election after election after election, ad inifinitum…
Keep your shrill about the Christian Right. You can never win an election without them. Alienating millions of voters will never help you. You Demoncrats are such sore losers, but losers all the same.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:31 amHey, Ryan!
Democrat logic = oxymoron, moron.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:32 amTurd Blossom and Libby were relying on journalists keeping quiet and going to prison. Instead, Russert totally contradicted Libby and Rove and Cooper’s sworn testimony don’t jive.
How is Fox News going to stuff this?
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:33 amEverglades Angler,
Hey, do you live in Florida, the home of the next President of the United States, the Honorable Jeb Bush?
I hope you voted for him.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:35 amThe great thing here is that so many Republicans and the radical religious right have said so much about how important perjury is (no matter how insignificant the lie is about) and how the rule of law must be maintained.
This will be hysterical watching Fox news and right wing thug radio try to shake this off.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:36 amEverglades Angler,
I suppose you subsribe more to the NBC Dan Blather kind of media. Figures. You better fill up on your Kool Aid.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:37 amBy the way, isn’t itintersting that you left wingnuts who are so symathetic to the Gitmo thugs have already tried and convicted Rove, et al?
Seems sort of hypocritcal to me.
Of course, you are probably those few who thought O.J. (and Clinton) were innocent.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:39 amIs that all I got? Murder…driving without a licence, leaving the scene of an accident, not reporting an accident for 10 hours, enlisting an attorney to cover it up, learning later she suffocated slowly (I believe that’s REAL torture even by Senator Kennedy’s standards), a judge who refused to allow an autopsy, a Grand Jury that says they were mislead…
I’m looking for your take on this murder and you bring up Laura Bush.
Try to stay on the subject at hand. A Democratic Senator killed a woman 36 years ago and never served a minute’s time for it.
I’ll help you out, what would your thoughts be if it had been Karl Rove who killed Mary Jo Kopechne? If your answer is anything less than “demand the death penalty” you’re a hypocrite.
That’s all I got
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:50 amJohn Roberts Does Not Belong To The Federalist Society: The Washington Post reports:
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:51 amEveryone knows that, like all good Republican lawyers, John G. Roberts Jr. is a member of the Federalist Society, the conservative law and public policy organization where right-of-center types meet to denounce liberalism and angle for jobs in the Bush administration.
And practically everyone  CNN, the Los Angeles Times, Legal Times and, just yesterday, The Washington Post  has reported Roberts’s membership as a fact. One liberal group opposed to Roberts’s nomination, the Alliance for Justice, has noted it on its Web site.
But they are wrong. John Roberts is not, in fact, a member of the Federalist Society, and he says he never has been.
This part of the story is particularly funny:
Upon reflection, some Federalist Society members conceded that they had never actually seen Roberts at meet-and-greets such as the society’s annual black-tie dinner.
“That’s a good question, let me think. Now that you mention it  no,” was former Bush Justice Department official Viet Dinh’s response when asked if he had ever spotted Roberts at any Federalist events.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/20/AR2005072002431.html
[...] From Think Progress Below is a Bloomberg article which is reporting that Karl Rove, senior adviser to the President and deputy chief of staff, and Lewis Libby, chief of staff to Vice President Cheney, are being investigated for having lied to a federal grand jury about how they learned the identity of a covert CIA agent, Valerie Plame (Murray Waas at the American Prospect wrote a similar story yesterday). [...]
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:55 amThe Senate should have some fun with this one.
Actual text, Iraq provision: …to enhance the security of the U.S. by making it the policy of the U.S. to pursue a transfer of responsibility for Iraqi forces only when they are ready to assume such responsibility and not to withdraw prematurely the U.S. Armed Forces from Iraq. Requires any withdrawal to be done only with careful coordination with a decision by the elected government of Iraq which shall be reached jointly when it is clear that the aim of the establishment of a free and stable Iraq that is at peace and not a threat to its neighbors has been or is about to be achieved.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:56 amPassed, 291-137 2 http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll397.xml
Guantanamo Provision: …to express the sense of Congress that the capture, detention and interrogation of international terrorists are essential to the successful prosecution of the Global War on Terrorism and to the defense of the U.S., its citizens, and coalition partners from future terrorist attacks; and that the detention and lawful, humane interrogation by the U.S. of detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba is essential to the defense of the U.S. and its coalition partners and to the successful prosecution of the Global War on Terrorism.
Passed, 304 – 124, 2
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll396.xml
It is so enteraining to watch these twisted, rotten Repuglicans get their due. What goes around comes around. Karl Rove is a filthy pig and he’s going down down down.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:56 amAnd furthermore, “You didn’t hear it from me…..in fact….let’s make a deal…..Let’s tell everyone that I heard it from you…….that ought to realy confuse things.”
I was once asked by a low level government official [a county commissioner] to lie to the grand jury on his behalf. My response….no one lies to grand juries because the testimony is all confidential and the penalties for purjury are off the charts serious.
So we’ll see what happens with this grand jury….could be the grand jury of the century or just another dud. jHH
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:03 amThis woman “was” a “secret agent” but hadn’t been for 5 years. She wasn’t undercover anymore. She “was” an agent in the same way she “was” a 2 year old who messed her pants.
Would you argue that she still “is” a 2 year old that messes her pants?
Democrats are still trying to discover the meaning of “is” 7 years after your impeached president Clinton was confused by the word.
Whenever you aren’t certain how to react to something, ask yourself how you’d react if the action were done by Clinton or any other Democrat.. then comment with the same argument.
If you can’t, you might consider not making a fool of yourself and keeping still. Impossible as it may seem.
Your guy lost the election and you continue to lose seats in the House and Senate.
If you’re wondering why, it’s because most Americans think your candidates aren’t the sharpest knives in the drawer.
By the way, since you are being undertaxed by the Republicans and your refund in 2002 was a horrible mistake, have you returned it yet?
Abe
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:05 amTo all Repiglicans who brag about the elections they stole and the holier than thou attitude in the hypocrites they are. Too all those winguts on the right, I just wanna remind them that a republican prosecuter is going to take this white house down. That’s right, one of your own is going to bring down the most corrupt administration in America’s history. As a matter of fact, Fitzgerald is one of the few republicans I respect. Joe Wilson was a good republican until his own party went on a witchhunt to discredit him. Now he’s a democrat. Smart guy.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:08 ammike said:
“butt wipe”… “crap face”… “Jeb Bush”…
1 track mind.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:08 amMike: you had me going for a while. :-D
Brilliant parody of the nutcase right!
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:16 amAs a matter of fact, Fitzgerald is one of the few republicans I respect. Joe Wilson was a good republican
are you sniffing glue? Don’t do that, it’s not good for you, unless you smoke at the same time, then it’s ok.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:17 amAbe:
“If you’re wondering why”
Not really. The GOP formula is simple and effective.
Scare the crap out of the public. Defame and slander your opposition with no regard for truth or respect for service. Gay bait. Appeal to the lowest common denominator. Success!
What’s your point about “losing elections” supposed to prove? That the fight is over? Nice try, but desperate though you may be, we’ll keep fighting. And we’ll see who needs to “get over it” i 2006.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:20 amSince the repugs always do witchhunts on thier own people when they refuse to go along with the republican crime machine, I wonder how long it will be before they turn on Fitzgerald who is a staunch republican. I bet they turn own him as soon as he hands out the indictments. Anyone one bet that Fox news will be the first to go after Fitz?
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:23 amYou know, as far as stealing the election is concerned, Bush won. I know it’s hard for you to swallow, but it’s true.
The House and Senate are losing Democratic representation too.
It’s been going on for over ten years.
The times, they are a changin’ and no matter how much you wish, cry, whine, curse or attack the fact, you can’t change that fact.
It must really suck to be you eh?
Abe Noxious
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:24 amI’m waiting for Gozalez to fire Fitzgerald. National security concernes will be the justification.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:26 amAbe, that wasn’t Karl’s call to make. Nor is it yours, nor even George W. Bush’s.
Mrs. Wilson was designated an NOC agent by the CIA. Her identity WAS NOT TO BE REVEALED even to friendly governments, it was so Top Secret.
I realize that this will not penetrate the conspiracy theory fog that passes for your intellect, and Mike D. thinks it’s the cross town rivals at the Homecoming game. That doesn’t change a damn thing. Karl Rove and Scooter Libby conspired to endanger not only this undercover agent, but anyone who worked for the cover firm or even had the most casual of interaction in the course of her activities abroad.
But for the record and for anyone reading with higher than lizard brain functions, remember this when the wingnuts try to pretend this is no big deal.
The CIA took this seriously enough to insist on investigation and prosecution. These are not a bunch of hand-wringing liberals manufacturing a case. These are hardened professionals well aware of the risks they run.
We may never know what is in the CIA after action report, but Karl Rove and Scooter Libby are as dangerous to American Security as Aldrich Ames or John Walker ever were. And they’ve got access to information at the highest levels of clearance.
I feel more secure already.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:28 amAbe noxious,
It’s not for you in your boxer shorts in your mom’s basement typing on a 10 year old computer to decide in Plame was Covert or not – that’s the CIA’s decision and they said she was. So shove it.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:29 amNo Abe what sucks is ignorants like yourself who follow corrupt leaders down a blind alley. There have already been convinctions in Ohio and pending Florida over REPUBLICAN voting fraud. And yes the investigations is growing ever larger as is the impending Delay indictments and those of his friends. The republican house of cards is falling.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:29 amCan Delay and company whip up some phoney separation-of-powers-violating legislation (like they did in the Schiavo case) to terminate Fitzgerald’s pay or fire him directly?
These authoritarians will stop at nothing to keep their grip.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:30 am[...] Bloomberg has an article that Karl Rove and Scooter Libby may be tried for purgery. That would surely make my approaching holiday season! [...]
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:31 amBloomburg news hounds have nailed it. Lets see Karl Rove, was told by the prince of darkness, about Wilson’s wife? and Libby was told by tim Russert A TV news reporter? I am confused about judith miller, who wrote all those stories on the WMD. Who told her about wilson’s wife or was she clairvoyant? All these repoters are in the wrong jobs. Or are they under cover agents working for the government? Are they fair and balanced news reporters.?
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:33 amYou’ve been saying the Republican house of cards is falling for 4 years.
Clue… It hasn’t and it isn’t.
All that’s really come apart is the Democratic Party. Because of progressive thinking individuals like yourself.
It must suck to live four years of your life in complete denial with no other option than to live the next four the same way. Your doing it though.
I feel your pain and it keeps me entertained.
Abe Noxious
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:35 amWow, I’ve rarely seen brain-dead logic devoid losers like Mike & Abe outside of anywhere other than as the Star Attractions in any sleazy circus sideshow, more than likely the Geeks who bite the heads off the live chickens
Jeb Bush?
Yeah, that Schiavo thing sure did WONDERS for his career, didn’t it?
And poor Abe, blathering about “Try to stay on the subject at hand” regarding Ted Kennedy’s fiasco in a topic about Karl Rove
Good job staying “on the subject at hand” yourself, huh?
And the best part for Abe & Mike?
For once, the bumper sticker soundbite plays RIGHT into the antiRove crowd’s efforts
“Karl Rove Outed a CIA Agent For Political Payback”
ALL the wordparsing the Rovetards are screeching, all the detailed minutae, is indicative of which US President who lied under oath?
Oh Yeah!!!
Bill Clinton
Remember
A Criminal investigation
Requested by the CIA
Agreed to by the DoJ under John Ashcroft
And the dems have NO power to influence the Special Prosecutor
Yeah, if I was a Rove Lackey, I’d be railing and having a major Hissy Fit too.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:40 amHey Abe wake up and smell the stink coming from the oval office. The administration is in trouble and a good deal of republicans accross the country are targets of investigations. And with the polls showing america increasingly unhappy with Bush and his goons, it’s not looking pretty for you guys in 2006.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:42 amThe knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, sister marrying, mullet haired, treason loving Mike said:
“And, finally, where is George Washington when we need him? He’s in the White House having dinner with Laura”
So bush is a cuckold then.
That would explain the twins.
A “man” lacking the ‘nads to defend his country in a time of war isn’t going to sire any children.
FWIW, at least Laura owns the first lady record for the most innocent people killed by a first lady.
The bushes are certainly a bloodthirsty bunch.
I wanna know why a librarian would marry a functional illiterate- Was it to escape the vehicular manslaughter conviction that she was guilty of?
IMHO: BINGO!
The knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, sister marrying, mullet haired, treason loving trailer trash will most certainly claim that it is unfair to attack political spouses unless those spouses have a husband willing to support the USA constitution.
Joe Wilson is slimed, his wife is outed, and her career is nuked because Joe Wilson is patriot enough to refuse to lie for dubious bush.
Repugnicans can at least take heart in the fact that knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, sister marrying, mullet haired, treason loving trailer trash will always vote repugnican no matter what.
Advice to Mike:
Tape your knuckles to prevent abrasion, and always love the 12-fingered-2headed child you have with your sister.
Your 12-fingered-2headed child never asked to be born- that was your and your sister’s decision.
See you on Jerry Springer soon,
George
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:49 amKing,
You said: “Wow, I’ve rarely seen brain-dead logic devoid losers”
Let’s examine your comment shall we. First off, you voted for Kerry. Your man; (Kerry) lost, that makes you (and Kerry)a loser.
Since you were upset that a “crime” had been committed and that the guilty party (though not PROVEN guilty or even considered suspect by those investigating) might get away with it.
I knew that you were a person who cared about justice from your comment, that’s why I enlightened you to a murder that took place by a Democatic Senator.
I went through the details of the crime for you and the many facets of the crime.
I apparently touched a nerve. Murder, if committed by a Democrat, is not a problem to you. I believe your comment was… is that all you’ve got.
You, on the other hand, have nothing… except a handful of hopes, dreams and visons of a crime you wish was committed by a man who has caused intense pain your party.
You, by definition, are a loser… and a sore loser at that. Let me remind you that watching your pain, as well as that of the press and all of the Democratic hopefuls that were soundly defeated last election cycle, gives me great pleasure.
Which leads me once again to the conclusion, it sucks to be you.
Can I get a witness?
Abe Noxious
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:52 amTo George (Silva):
I may have knuckles reaching the ground, but I also have gonads which is something you peace-lovin’, French-lovin’, anti-Americas can say. Like your brains, your gonads are the size of peas. And, your mothers are ugly, too boot. I can’t say that I have ever seen an attractive female Demoncrat.
Sad, but true.
Oh, and I thought the trailer trash were Demoncrats…the “little people” that Ted Kennedy and John Kerry say they represent…yeah, right.
Mike the Red Stater
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:00 amOh, I in my list of Democratic adjectives I forgot “genocidal.” That is “baby killers” for those of you who live in the blue provinces.
Seig Heil!
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:02 amMike,
You said: A “man� lacking the ‘nads to defend his country in a time of war isn’t going to sire any children.
Can I assume you meant Clinton?
As you know, he refused to serve his country and there has been speculation that the daughter he raised isn’t his.
Surely you wouldn’t fault President Bush for not having properly served his country when former Democratic President Clinton ran away from his promise to serve… that would be hypocritical.
I know from experience that Democrats are law abiding citizens. Take Ted Kennedy for example…. remember how he claimed full responsiblity for driving off a bridge with Mary Jo, immediately went for help to save her and made a full disclosure moments after the accident.
Clinton himself took full responsiblity for his behavior. Sure he could have tried to smear Monica or make her seem like a stalker. He might have even pretended not to know her name and called her “That woman…Miss Monica…” but not him. He was (or is that is?) a man of honor.
You remember don’t you?
You don’t?
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:04 amTake another swig of Kool Aid, it’ll come to you.
Mike, I defamed you, It was George I meant to address.
I apoligize
Abe
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:05 amI am your witness, Abe :)
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:07 amAbe,
No problem. It was good no matter who it was aimed at. :)
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:09 amWhen you read Libby, think Cheney. As chief of staff, I doubt they keep any secrets from each other.
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:18 am>It must suck to live four years of your life in complete denial with no other option than to live the next four the same way.
Chin up, buckaroo. I’m sure you’ll get through them somehow.
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:23 amGeorge,
If anything I’ve said has in any way angered or upset you, my day is complete.
A bit of advice… for the next 4 to 8 years you can stop thinking about tomorrow, each one will bring you untold frustration.
Sleep well, The Republican Party has things well in hand… as I’m sure you probably have your thing in yours.
Abe Noxious
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:26 amMike and Abe,
If you call winning an election by having a-holes that never served with Kerry make outrageuous lies and get a complicit media to not challenge their rediculous assertions (Kerry should have responded faster, and for that I do fault him and his managers). Winning an election when a right wing hack in Ohio makes certain that large Democratic areas have far too few machines – yet Republican areas had more than enough. Winning with machines that EVERY time an error was discovered it benefited Bush. Winning by machines that gave NO paper trail because the rebublican thugs in congress prevented that. For the first time in history the exit polls were wrong – and statistically mathematically impossible – yet dismissed by the so called liberal media as conspiracy. I guess it helps when you have Sinclair broadcasting help spread your propaganda right? Why do assholes like you hate America? After all under the republican majority, it is ok to out a cover CIA agent. There is no equivelent to giving Gitmo preisoners a fair trial – hell they do not even exist. Rove has ALLREADY admitted to outing Plame through his lawyer. The CIA has confirmed she was indeed covert.
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:36 amWhat has the GOP given America? The finger.
We have reversed the multi trillion dollar SURPLUS that Clinton left us with a multi trillion dollar debt. 45 million people with no health insurace. A quagmire in Iraq that is draining our blood, thousands of innocents, destroying thousands of American lives – all the while cutting veteran benefits. But the rich have their tax cut – right boys? Workers lose their overtime, and many lose their jobs to outsourcing. People that lose their job due to illness or some other disaster are allowed no relief under the new business friendly bankruptcy law. Lies about wmd, lies about Social Security, Patriot Act that allows the govt to invade you privacy without even telling you. Nothing to hide? what about the Patriot Act under president Hillary Clinton? Now how do you feel about it – you short sighted idiots? Bin Laden still running around – so please tell me – what good has this Rebublican administration done to deserve you to two cult members to be so attached to it’s symbolic cock?
- jason
Jason,
We won.
You lost.
Get over it.
How well is Air America doing spreading their message? Have they found many sponsors?
You know, if you’ve got a point and people agree with it, they’ll pay to listen. If you’ve got no point and your target audience is in denial, it won’t sell.
Rush was doing great when Buddy and Bill Clinton were in the White House. It appears no one wants to pay for the Democratic message because… well people don’t believe it… except for you.
Why don’t you sponsor Air America Jason?
You know if you read The Constitution, the government isn’t responsible for jobs or health care Jason. That’s why we’re called a Free Country (You’ve heard that before right?) In a Free Country people don’t depend on the governemnt to take care of everything. Mostly infrastructure and an army.
I guess you know the “prisoners” at Gitmo don’t have a country, a uniform or a leader. They’re terrorists.
They want to kill me and Mike and George and even you Jason, just because you live here. They hate you becuase you’re free. You apparently have a problem with being free too, but that’s because you are angry.
You’re angry that our tax dollars don’t pay for everything that you want.
You’re angry about health care, unemployment, enviornment,
minimum wage…. but most of all, you’re angry that Bush was elected president of these United States by a majority of the people.
He was elected by a majority of the people in each state in 2000 too Jason.
Those are the facts and, hurt as they may, they remain.
Your anger is astonishing. You have no control over it and it consumes you.
Call me a fundy Christian but… where do you think all that anger comes from Jason?
Get some help
Abe Noxious
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:55 amHow well is Air America doing spreading their message? Have they found many sponsors?
You do realize the election is over? This is not about the election. And this may come as a surprise to you. Air America radio and progressive radio in general is kicking right wing crap ass in the “goonads” across the board. It makes money because people want it. Even Clear Channel puts it on. You really need to get out more.
July 22nd, 2005 at 4:39 amHere are the FBI’s Chapaquiddick files, although what any of this, the topic at hand, has to do with Clinton or Ted Kennedy is another mystery, but not one the FBI is likely to investigate. I suppose if I were you… no, actually, I wouldn’t.
http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/chappaquiddick.htm
July 22nd, 2005 at 5:17 amAbe is delusional. He thinks he is mainstream because every jack ass in his town of about … 30,000 is too high… thinks just like him. Abe, you are in for a big surpise in the next 30 years, starting in 2006 and 2008. You are going to be wondering what hit you.
July 22nd, 2005 at 5:25 amEven the wingnut trolls are making me happy these days. They sound absolutely desperate: “We won we won we won! And we will always win! Nyah nyah nyah”…They sound like ten year olds. It’s great! THAT is the only defense they have as they watch their imperial president take the medicine he so richly deserves.
Chappaquiddick! Chappa-freakin-quidick? That’s all they got! Oh my, this is almost too delicious!
Here’s the dealie, wingers: Rove & Libby, at the least, are going down. Maybe more. The American people are already waking up to the fact that this is the filthiest administration in history. They didn’t only lie, cheat and steal. That’s business as usual for Repubs. They lied, cheated and stole us into a WAR that the public LOATHES. That has killed 1800 of our own, wounded 40,000 more, decimated innocent civilians and destroyed both our international reputation and our national security options.
Now people are going to have the dots connected for them. Bush is going to have shit stains over every inch of his smirking face. If he survives this, he will be damaged goods for the remainder of his term. Democrats are being handed the keys to the kingdom here wingies. Better start to get over it, because that Chappaquidick nonsense is only going to get you laughed out of town. As for Clinton, even the dumbest American can understand the difference between Intern Sex and 1800 DEAD AMERICAN KIDS.
Enjoy, suckers. Me, I’m stocking up on the popcorn.
July 22nd, 2005 at 6:47 am[...] [...]
July 22nd, 2005 at 7:01 amCowards die 1000 times. It must be rough in the WH.
July 22nd, 2005 at 7:08 amhttp://patriotboy.blogspot.com/2005_07_17_patriotboy_archive.html#112201032107354704
Rove/Libby Talking Points for Republican Activists
Rove and Libby did not betray top secret information to foreigners. They betrayed it to American reporters.
Betraying Top Secret information for political purposes is one of the most patriotic things an American citizen can do.
There were too many “non-official cover” agents working on weapons of mass destruction intelligence at the CIA. By betraying Plame, Rove and Libby forced the Agency to become leaner and meaner.
If a great American like Orrin Hatch can betray top secret information, so can Karl Rove and Scooter Libby.
Rove and Libby are good men. They once joined Supreme Court Nominee John G. Roberts in locating a missing white woman.
There is no truth to the rumor that Mr. Rove then ordered a “work up” on the woman to discover her vulnerabilities.
Joe Wilson, on the other hand, has never mentioned the problem of missing white women in any of his interviews.
The 75% of all Americans and the 71% of all Republicans who think that Rove should be fired if he leaked classified information are partisan Democrat hacks. If we have any Top Secret/No Foriegn classified information about them or their spouses, we should use it to destroy them.
The fact that the Administration prosecuted ex-DIA agent Jonathan Randel for leaking information classified at a lower level than Top Secret/No Foriegn, does not mean that Rove and Libby should receive similar treatment. Randel leaked information about a money launderer who was allied with the Administration. Libby and Rove betrayed a CIA agent for honorable reasons–her husband committed a treacherous act, he had embarrassed Our Leader.
There seems to be an exception for Saudi princes. It must be one of the perks of royalty.
“Saturday, Jan. 11, with the president’s permission, Cheney and Rumsfeld call Bandar to Cheney’s West Wing office, and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Gen. Myers, is there with a top-secret map of the war plan. And it says, ‘Top secret. No foreign.’ No foreign means no foreigners are supposed to see this,” says Woodward.
July 22nd, 2005 at 8:19 am[...] Bush’s Brain may actually suffer from a seratonin imbalance. That may explain the repeated instances like this: Two top White House aides have given accounts to a special prosecutor about how reporters first told them the identity of a CIA agent that are at odds with what the reporters have said, according to people familiar with the case. [...]
July 22nd, 2005 at 9:54 amTurdBlossom Meets the Fan and Scooter Can’t Get No Satis-Traction While the Queen of All Iraq Cools Her Heels
ThinkProgress has the advance on a Bloomberg article that reveals what Karl Rove and Scooter Libby’s real problem is:
Rove, Libby Accounts in CIA Case Differ With Those of Reporters
By Richard Keil
July 22 (Bloomberg) ? Two top
July 22nd, 2005 at 11:15 am“Where were all of you who are so outraged at lying politicians when Bill “I never had sexual relations with that womanâ€? Clinton was caught lying under oath by the entire country? Defending him? Perjury is perjury. I thought we were a country of equal protection  if Clinton can perjure himself and walk free, then all perjurers should be able to walk.”
That’s a pretty ironic comment comming from a conservative. It was YOUR PARTY who said “it isn’t about the sex, its about the lying” and preceded to hound Clinton at millions of dollars of taxpayers expense, leading to congressional censure. Now, when your own administration lies, not once not twice, but repeatedly about things far, far more serious than getting a blow job, you’re nowhere to be found. I will never listen to another right winger talk to me about hypocrisy ever again.
For the record, I didn’t vote for clinton. And I didn’t vote for him in large part because I didn’t believe he was honest. And I didn’t support what Clinton did, I felt that whether or not he committed perjury he acted in an embarassing and shameful way. So for me, there is no hypocrisy. I hold George W. Bush to the exact same standards that I held William Jefferson Clinton. The only difference is, anyone out side of partisan politics who steps back and looks at the situation comes to one chilling conclusion: the things done by this administration make the totality of everything done under Clinton seem TRIVIAL by comparison.
We’ve managed to take white house corruption and scandal to a whole new level, and I didn’t even think that was possible. So, good game, neo-cons – congratulations on an entirely new level of disgracing the country. I believe we should hold our leaders accountable whether they have an (R) after their name or a (D) after their name. And what I find so pathetic is the hypocrisy of the right in trying to defend the exact things they were screaming at the top of their lungs about in the 1990s. You’ve lost all credibility you had with me to talk about “integrity” or “principles” or “values.”
“Oh, and as far as GW Bush being dumb  how does his whipping the lefties asses in two elections in a row (along with a huge Congressional victory in 2002) make the Dems look? For a party that picked Howard “Secreaming Mimiâ€? Dean as its leader, I would be careful at who is calling who dumb!”
George Bush lost the popular vote in 2000 and was appointed president. And there were enough voting problems in 2004 that we’ll never know who actually won. But if you want to go ahead and revel in the fact that a moronic incompitent leader can have enough family backing, enough money and enough corruption and deceit around him to take the white house, you go ahead. At the end of the day, George Bush is stil and incompitent idiot and even his own party knows it — they just don’t care, because he’s not the one running the country.
Sel
July 22nd, 2005 at 11:22 am“How well is Air America doing spreading their message? Have they found many sponsors?”
Actually, I hate to break it to you, but the answer to your first question is: very, very well actually. The answer to your second question is, yes many many sponsors in fact. They started with 7 stations, now they have 67 stations in under a year, and there’s plenty of sponsorship (Hey Geico if you read this get some better radio commercials!!)
July 22nd, 2005 at 11:28 amIf you are on the RIGHT, sex is the LIE that can every be told. So they lie about everything and according the KING GEORGE’s version of the HOLY BIBLE, it all in the name of GOD.
Their are people who know what John 3-16 says, an some that don’t. God sent his son, his son’s name was Jesus, not George and his mother’s name was Mary, not Barbara. Wake up America.
Gene Hackworth
July 22nd, 2005 at 11:42 amscrewBushBeatDick,
If you think Jesus would be a modern liberal, think again. I cannot imagine a God who said, “Suffer the little children to come unto me,” meant that millions upon millions of innocent babes would be sucked from their mummie wombs and thrown into a garbage can.
And, I don’t think Jesus would say to a woman that she has reproductive rights in that she can screw any guy in town and then pay $300 to have her “mistake” aborted.
I also do not think Jesus would give the nod to same-sex marriages. His Father (God) said that homosexuality is an abomination and destroyed an entire city (Sodom) because it was riddled with homosexuality.
I am not against homosexuality per se. What people do in their lives is their private matters. But, don’t try to paint Jesus Christ as a long-haired queer bait. You libbies have tried that one since the 1960s (back when I was a long-hair libbie myself).
July 22nd, 2005 at 11:45 amMike, there just can’t be people that think what you post.
July 22nd, 2005 at 11:50 amUnreal.
Keith,
There are millions of us.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:00 pmWell, Mike, we’ll never know what Jesus thought about abortion or gay marriage because y’know he NEVER EVER EVER MENTIONED either one of them!
However, we know very well what he thought of obscene wealth and war and fake piety and judgmental hypocrites and ignoring the poor and sick. We know what he thought about these things because THAT is what he spoke of in the New Testament.
Why do modern Conservatives hate Jesus so much?
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:01 pmGod didn’t tell Abraham to sacrifice his firstborn son? Abortion has been around for thousands of years. Think what a beautiful world it would have been if Hitler was aborted, or PolPot, or Stalin, or Ted Bundy, Jack The Ripper, or Mao or Nixon or Torquemada or George W. Bush, or you.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:05 pmThe weirdest thing about the Mike-type of “Christians” is that they trash Christianity at every turn. They are the living breathing opposite of everything Christ taught in the NEW Testament.
In my Catholic school, the nuns explained to us as tiny 6 year olds that the NEW Testament in every case trumped the OLD Testament. Where the Old Testament said “An eye for an eye” the New Testament said “Turn the other cheek.”
These freaky deaky faux Christians really aren’t any religion. They follow the Old Testament, since they are violent, judgmental and primitive, but they aren’t Jews. They ignore virtually every one of Christ’s teachings but blaspheme by calling themselves “Christians”. Then they act like brownshirt bullies and try to ram their non-religion into our laws.
It’s sick. Christ would be both ashamed and disgusted by them.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:10 pmI still would like to know who forged the document regarding yellow cake uranium that Joe Wilson discovered was a forgery. Any thoughts.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:19 pmEtienne,
I am sick and tired of being branded a left wing Bible thumper because I believe things like abortion and gay marriage is wrong.
Well, Etienne, do mean obsence wealth like Kennedy and Kerry wealth? Where do you people get the idea that Repbulicans are all wealthy. I am simple middle-class.
I always have to laugh when I hear Ted Kennedy talk about the poor. The only poor that he knows is his house help.
The reason that Jesus never spoke about abortion and homosexuality is that perhaps even in his godly wisdom did not envision what our world would come to today.
Intersting you bring up war — think about it. In the 20th century, it was Democratic presidents who took us into WWI (Wilson), WWII (FDR), Vietnam (Kennedy and Johnson), Bosnia (Clinton), Gulf War (Bush 1), Iraqu (Bush II). Now, tell me would Jesus have been a Democrat?
Fake piety? You mean Demoncrats who show up in churches every four years to bump their heads on the altar so they can get the black vote? Do you mean a president who is screwing his intern in the oval office Monday-Friday and going to church on Sunday? Do you mean like Robert KKK Byrd who often invokes religion in his speeches, yet was the founder of the KKK branch in his West Virginia town?
Who ignores the poor? Rebublicans give as much to the poor as Democrats. I think the point here is that Democrats believe in re-distribution of wealth (as long as it isn’t there wealth). Take from the rich and give to the poor. Take from the haves and give to the have nots. As Karl Marx says in the Communist Manifesto, “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” Sounds like it is right out of the Democrat Party Platform to me. Only you do it through taxes. I am not against helping the poor. I come from a family of eleven children with a father who barely made a living. I know poverty. But, I also know work, and initiative, education, a fiscal responsibility. I learned those as a poor kid. My father, who never asked for a handout in his life, taught me these things. Helping the poor who need it is our obligation and should be done with a giving heart. But, taking half of the wages of hard working Americans to support lazy welfare moms and bums is not my idea of helping the poor. Make them get a job. If there are no jobs where they live, pay for relocation expenses so they can go somewhere they can get a job.
Now you’ve got me started.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:24 pmMike –
If Democrat Logic is an Oxymoron then it seems from where I sit that Republican logical argument consists of Ad Hominem attacks. Nothing else, Just Ad Hominem attacks. Thanks for adding more proof to that.
FbA –
USA PATRIOT Act actually stands for
Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act. If you don’t believe me here is a copy…
http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html
That may not fit in with your “Fun Facts about the Patriot Act” but you don’t need to make up a stupid acronym… It already IS a stupid acronym.
Z.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:25 pmBy turning the other cheek, you mean allow terrorists to destroy American while we chant, “We love, you man.”?
This is why you idiots lost the election. Maybe Bush won by playing on the fears of people but to have an administration that you know will do little but “negotiate” with the enemy is far more frightening.
Hmmm….if we hold the modern liberal view of peace at any cost, slavery would still be alive and well in Mississippi and my great-great grandfather (union from Ohio) would not have had to die to help emancipate millions of slaves
If we hold the current liberal view of peace at any cost, we might well be speaking German on the east coast and Japanese on the west coast. And we wouldn’t have to think about Jews because there wouldn’t be any.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:36 pmMike believe me no one is branding you a left wing Bible thumper. You’re clearly nothing but a Rush Limbaugh hypnosis subject, a garden variety Republican moron who never met a talking point he couldn’t memorize and repeat like a robot.
I’m not going to explain Christianity to you, because you’re a lost cause. If you can’t understand that Christ could not abide judgmentalism then clearly you’ve never even cracked a Bible. Christ never spoke about sex, yet you belong to a cult off fake “christians” that are pathologically obsessed with it. Do any of you ever contemplate WHY Christ didn’t deal with sex, except to forgive the adulterer and the prostitute and to berate those (like you) who judge others? Do any of you ever contemplate anything? Or do you just have a direct siphon of Rush Limbaugh’s drug addled garbage pumped into your heads?
You’re a disgrace to Christianity and a ridiculous fool who doesn’t appear to have a single thought of his own. You’re pathetic. A very typical wingnut troll.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:37 pmIs spouting propaganda all day and night on this site hard work Lyle?
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:42 pmOr are you doing God’s work?
In any case, I think you should get back to right- wing radio to fill up your tank with more nonsense, unless you are transcibing as we speak.
Nonsense is expensive 2.59/gallon.
Turning the other cheek? Hmmm, even as little kids we wondered how that was supposed to work in the real world. You know what the nuns said? They said, Christ doesn’t care about the “real world”. He is giving you a revolutionary and absolute standard to live up to, whatever the consequences. Christ was an extremist. He didn’t advocate compromise for any reason, certainly not for any government or political party.
So that really just raises the question of what religion you people are. You second guess Christ whenever it suits you. You preach things he never spoke about. You hold yourselves above Christ. What ARE you people?
Just goes to show how incompatible religion and government are. And what disgusting hypocrites you people are. Corrupting both Christianity and Democracy with one money-worshipping war-loving political movement. Good job!
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:43 pmMike is a bigot who thinks he’s a savior. Like Hitler.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:46 pm“Not only is Fitzgerald a Democrat party mole” July 21, 2005 @ 11:29 pm
Mark that. That is the first one I have heard. Certainly not the last if the past is any guide, i.e. “slime and defend.” Anyone have an earlier confirmation?
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:05 pm“Fox News is probably reporting on real news.”
Why should they start now?
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:06 pmDearest Trolltards:
The “ButBush-1″ card has been played. You have lost the argument. You are totalitarians. QED.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:07 pmThe real question: how long until non-involved Republicans start realizing this could take down the entire party in 2006 & 2008. Remember it was ultimately his own party that took down Nixon.
When this happens – when other Republicans stand up and turn against this group of power mongers – it will be the end of this administration and justice for all of us.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:08 pmGood point Deano.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:10 pmActually, if Mike has a pastor, think of all the sheeple across Bumf@ck America who have hustling, con artist bigots parading around as “pastors” selling hate and raking in the coin. Populist religion, thousands of little bigoted Hitlers raking in the coin and whipping up the proles.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:14 pmI think these guys should think up a new name for their religion. Bushtianity maybe. Or Neo-Confederationism. Or FatDumbandHappy-ism. I mean, inventing new cults and preaching nonsense is part of the redneck culture. It would at least be honest, and would keep them from taking Christ’s name in vain the way they do.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:18 pm[...] But the second piece is even more interesting. Multiple grand jury sources told Bloomberg that Scooter and Turd Blossom are lying. Whose statements are operative now? [link] [...]
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:23 pmThese guys just can’t or won’t break free of the surface tension of propaganda and dive a little deeper to the root causes and truths.
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:23 pm[...] As kos said: It’s not the blowjob endangering national security by outing an undercover CIA agent, but the lies about it! a Bloomberg article … is reporting that Karl Rove, senior adviser to the President and deputy chief of staff, and Lewis Libby, chief of staff to Vice President Cheney, are being investigated for having lied to a federal grand jury about how they learned the identity of a covert CIA agent, Valerie Plame [...]
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:30 pmWhy Bush “won” in 2004: “9/11, 9/11, 9/11. It’s hard work. Hard. 9/11, 9/11, 9/11. Flip-flop. Swift Boats. 9/11, 9/11, 9/11″
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:51 pmWhy is Bloomberg article now missing from its website
July 22nd, 2005 at 1:54 pmI think these guys should think up a new name for their religion. Bushtianity maybe. Or Neo-Confederationism. Or FatDumbandHappy-ism. I mean, inventing new cults and preaching nonsense is part of the redneck culture. It would at least be honest, and would keep them from taking Christ’s name in vain the way they do.
Comment by Etienne  July 22, 2005 @ 1:18 pm
In fact, they should really be running as what they are. They are not Republicans or conservatives. Goldwater was horrified at the direction of the party before he died.
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:01 pmThey have been running stealth wingnut, libertarian and theocrat radicals as Republicans for years. Stealth tech just ain’t for weapons platforms, baby.
Why Bush won…
“I actually voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it.”
“Bon jour; hola; ello-hay; I am Theresa Hines Kerry and I am a democrat and a billionare who made all of my money from my dead Repbublican husband whom I can’t get over.”
“AND WE’LL GO TO CALIFORNIA AND NEW YORK AND MICHIGAN YEOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!”
“Actually, I invented the internet.”
“I never had sexual relations with that woman.”
“Americans are the dumbest people on the planet.” (Michael Moore, for those of you in the blue states)
Blathergate…
ad infinitum and ad naseum…
Even with the power of the wealthy left wingers (Soros, Streisand, Moore, etc). and the powerful mainstream media (Dan Rather, Katie Couric, etc) against him, Kerry could not beat George Bush. David and Goliath. That is what made the 2004 victory so sweet. George Soros spent millions to no avail.
You people will never wake up and that is why you will not win elections. If your only hope for 2008 is that a Rovegate scandal might bring the Republicans down, then you
are pathetic. More Americans listen to Bill O’Reilly than they listen to NBC, CBS, and ABC News each night.
Rush Limbaugh gave conservatives an outlet and a voice in America that they never had before with people like Dan Rather selecting the news. And, even in dark blue areas like New York City and Los Angeles, Rush is # 1. Interesting.
Have any of you actually listened to Air America or, better yet, watch Al Franken’s talk show? It is the most boring crap on television and radio. He may have been funny on SNL but he is pathetic now.
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:10 pmIt’s entertaining to read the outrage of Democrats.
They look for the appearance of lies, deceit, memos, the hint of guilt and scream for resignations immediately before the actual truth is presented.
As each of the claims is found to be unfounded they demand that the spirit of the law be upheld and demand justice.
Seven years ago having the actual law broken didn’t bother them at all.
None of this contempt is present for lying and murder for the actions of Senator Kennedy.
What does that say about their desire for justice?
I’ll leave you to form your own conclusion.
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:10 pmI’m proud to be an American but happy to be living out of the country and a little removed from the left-right hate thing.
We need to find a way to focus on what we have in common rather than on what disagree on.
A few comments on the thread:
Ted Kennedy should have done some time for involuntary manslaughter. No special breaks due for the privileged.
Honor/virtue are virtually gone from the American political scene and the current ruling language is pure Machiavellian Power. Rove & Cheney are merely the latest edition of big time win at all cost power brokers. They will do virtually anything to make this Plame business go away and would do well to have Rove take the fall and keep Bush’s name clean.
At the end of the day, we’re all addictively glued to PlameGate news while the oil fat cats and super wealthy are sipping their Dom Perignon and saluting Cheney and his charismatic Dubya puppet for a job well done. Those are the people who paid for this administraction and their investment has been returned many times over.
Anyone want to put odds on the future existence of a Hastert administration? He’s next in line after Dirty Dick.
Cheers
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:13 pmDid anyone watch the Congressional hearing on C-Span 3?
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:14 pmI think the CIA is rightfully pissed off and is coming after this WH with the truth of the damage that was done to our national security.
Many thanks to those brave men who appeared before the hearing today!
The noose is tightening around all those involved. Can’t wait to see this exposed on Hardball tonight.
MSM quit burying your heads in the sand.
This is happening and no denial by the MSM will stop it.
Americans deserve to know the TRUTH about this WH!
The house of cards appears to be crumbling from all sides!
Actually, I do not beleive that Christianity belongs to either party.
However, it is the liberals who took Christ out of Christmas, prayer out of the mouths of children, and exchanged them with infanticide and perversion.
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:15 pmMike,
You are a moron. Repeat sound bites without regard to truth.
Kerry voted for 87Billion as LONG as Bush tax cut for rich was rescinded to pay for it – Then when Bush threatened to veto it – if his precious tax cut was endangered then he voted against it. I understand it. Why not you?
Dean scream was an invention of the sclm – in the original broadcast you could not even hear him – it was not until the assholes filtered out all but his scream. Then rediculed him. Nothing wrong with passion. Gore never said he invented the internet you moron – check out non-partisan “factcheck.com”. Yeah Clinton lied, big whoop – he was set up – and that is irrelevent to today. Your Boy has been in charge now for how long? And his lies has costed incredible death and suffering – and for what? Rush Limbaugh consistently lies and his lies are exposed by Franken almost daily – with FACTS – can you deal with facts?
How do you idiots continue to listen to that fat druggie hypocritical asshole that never allows an opposing view on his radion show. One thing about liberal radio is that even idiots like you can be heard.
- jack
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:28 pmIf you watched the C-SPAN 3 telecast, we now know why the information requested on John Bolton was not given to those in the Senate demanding it.
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:29 pmWake up! They’re all involved. This is such a LIE being perpetrated on the American people to justify an Illegal war, and Mr Wilson and his wife were easy targets of this WH, but the real cover up is about the lies which led us to war.
It’s going to get bigger and deeper before its all over.
Somehow this has to be Clinton’s fault.
It’s got to be his fault somehow…how can we tie this issue to Clinton?
Clinton, Clinton he’s the man, let’s blame Clinton whenever we can!
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:33 pmI was going to say Mike was a moron, but I think he’s more like those crazy guys with spit in their hair who babble about the Bible while they piss on their own shoes.
Or maybe he’s a dope fiend like Rush Limbaugh and can’t see straight for all the hate that keeps streaming through his drug addled brain.
Doesn’t matter. Nothing can stop the Rove/Libby/Fleischer express now. The Special Prosecutor train is barreling down the tracks and these mangy dogs are tied in the middle of it, brought down by their pride, arrogance and lack of any moral or patriotic principles.
Keep the popcorn coming. This is sweeeeeeeeeeeet! Knowing how the Mikes of the world are crying buckets into their moonshine only adds to the exquisite delight.
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:38 pmSorry, Jack. I heard the Live broadcast and Howard Dean’s scream was perfectly audible, loud and clear. Now this moron is the head of the DNC. And you wonder why you lose elections :)
Oh, it is o.k. for Clinton, the President of the United States, to lie under oath because he was “set up.” There you go again with your relative morality. If a Democrat does it, o.k. If a Republican does it, bad.
As for Al Franken and facts, you must be kidding. Al Franken never let facts get in the way of his gonadless diatribes.
Rush Limbaugh may be a fat druggie but he is whipping pansy Al’s yellow ass in every poll. And, that is what really matters.
George Bush is in the White House and, no matter how much you libbies cry foul, that’s the way it is and that’s all that matters.
I may be a moron, but my side won and your side lost, and that’s all that matters.
Your anger and hatred must be really eating you up. I actually, feel sorry you.
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:42 pmJason,
You said: “I do feel that a moral and just government makes certain that it’s citizens are taken care of.”
Your “feeling” is not part of the Constitution.
Jesus said that we should love one another and take care of the less fortunate. Our country does that with millions of dollars in aid each year.
Since you are obviously a Christian, do you also believe that anyone who holds an office in government should put their religious beliefs aside when passing legislation? Should they discount what they believe when it comes to domestic matters like abortion?
How much of a person’s religious values should they bring with them as they go about their work lives? How much should they pack away for Sunday?
The Democrats say that Bush lied about WMD.
Democrats had made the same claims about Iraq’s weapons for years. For 11 years Sadam continued to violate the terms of his surrender with the United Nations and actually killed thousands of his people using weapons of mass destruction.
That fact is lost on the “Bush lied” gang because it would force you to apply a logic that doesn’t support your hatred of him.
We have now learned that France, Russia and Germany were involved in stealing millions of dollars in the oil for food campaign in a deal with Saddam.
How many of his people died in Iraq for lack of basic living supplies as this scam went on?
It couldn’t matter to you.
Where is your outrage since these countries refused to help in the overthrow of Saddam?
It’s better to hate America than to acknowledge the evidence that shows the truth of Saddam and the countries that partnered with him.
Christ says that God knows our hearts.
Democrats don’t know their own.
All they see is their hatred for George Bush.
When a person is driven by hate they ignore anything that will quench the fire of their hate.
They look for any fuel that will keep the fire of hate burning in their heart.
Hate destroys. It leaves a person filled with contempt and
clouds their thinking.
SO Jason, got any hatred going on your heart regarding George Bush?
Do you feel any anger that France, Germany and Russia where involved in the oil for food program?
Do you find it odd that many Democrats had gone on record saying Saddam had WMD?
How much of your argument against Bush dismisses the comments of Democrats who made the same statements?
Are you governed by your hatred or your pursuit of the truth as you see it?
Finally, do you think it was fair that Clinton was impeached for lying under oath?
Don’t answer to us, answer to yourself.
What do you hate?
Abe Noxious
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:45 pm“I have no six kids with one another in the oven and I ain’t never had no husband no how, no time. You damn right I’m a Decmocrat.”
“But, I don’t vote.”
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:47 pmBolton’s involved in this as deeply as both Rove and Libby. Those in the CIA are rightfully pissed off, and they know it goes to the top of this administration.
Watch out White House. They’re not going to let this rest.
Maybe we can Frog-March all of them down Pennsylvania Ave in front of all of America and the world! What a parade that would be. But, alas, if we could only bring back the dead soldiers or reattach the limbs of the maimed.
No one should EVER forgive them. They are the real Axis of Evil!
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:48 pmSomehow I doubt that much will really come from any of this. While it is clear that someone or people placed within the whitehouse leaked this info in a retaliatory fashion, Karl Rove, Sdooter et al already have legal cover or this info would not be coming out.
It’s old meat for the simpering mainstream news media to chew on, full of sound and fury signifying nothing. This is a typical Rove move: Black is white, white is black, oh wait, white is white and black is really green, oh wait black is really not a color so therefore the message/data cannot be true or accurate.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain…
By the time this dust will have settled, they (the corporate controlled government of the USA)will have a new distraction to focus our attention on and being the good little sheep we are we will, and you can bet we’ll be passionate about the issue too.
When will we (the bleating sheep citizenry) wake up to the fact that these people want an empire built with global control and are behaving as if it already is so.
These traitorous greedy business people will once again walk away from the results and responsibilities of their actions after much hand wringing and “waiting until all the facts are in”.
The Repubs and the Dems are simply the first and second “strings” of players from the same corporate controlled team.
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:53 pmIt’s time to throw the bums out of office and remind the government controlled corporatocracy who the real boss is.
Mike -
Please watch what you say or Steed Lankershim will be along ranting about Irrational thought… We’ll have to tell him that you’re not a Liberal and he will be SOOOO upset.
Or does comment 167 actually refer to something? I’ve got it… It’s some kind of code…
Morrocan Moles hanglide in the sunset, except on moonless nights.
The sonorous whale moves over the deeps.
The polar bear skates but the ice is melting…
Please tell me when I get ther right response…
Z.
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:54 pmThis administration preys on fear. They want us all to be afraid. They’ve been doing it since 9/ll. They are right.
July 22nd, 2005 at 2:59 pmLets raise the Terror Level until its off the charts. What should we fear? I think the answer is obvious: THE WHITEHOUSE
Mike not mike, it’s been time to “throw da bums” out for a couple of decades now. We haven’t been getting anywhere. Instead we’ve created a mutant race of knuckledragging faux-Christian barbarians like Abe & Mike, who serve as human robots for RNC talking points and will do the bidding of corporate powermongers more effectively than any Night of the Dead zombies.
This Rove thing matters because it’s a big bright spotlight on exactly what amoral hypocrites they are. And from where I sit, it’s already working. My Republican, Fox-watching, pro life Catholic parents already told me that they are turning into Democrats (but “Conservative ones” they remind me) as a result of seeing what a corrupt, lying warmonger Bush and company really are. And this is IN SPITE of watching Fox News every night. You’ll notice even O’Reilly has started to turn on Rove.
Now, the Abes and Mikes of America, the ones that make us the laughingstock of the world, that make civilized people in England, Ireland, Japan, Australia, Canada, etc. look at us as the sewer of humanity – no, we aren’t ever going to get anywhere with them because they are uneducated redneck freaks. They live in a subculture the world loathes and they know it, they suffer from a deal of humiliation for being so stupid and amoral. But right now they feel like they have POWER. They are allowing themselves to believe that they and all the other knuckledraggers in their Bible Belt ghost towns represent the world’s greatest human accomlishment.
Taking back America and reclaiming it for our Founding Father’s guiding principles is going to be the work of a generation. But whatever happens,you can be assured there will always be piss stained lunatics babbling in the subways….and there will always be Abes and Mikes. It’s just that the piss stained lunatics won’t be running the world anymore.
July 22nd, 2005 at 3:03 pmAbs and Mike,
Which one(s) are you?
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/eibessential/illustrating_absurdity/tshirts.guest.html
July 22nd, 2005 at 3:14 pmRyan Neat,
Are you the same Ryan Neat from AMERICAblog? Good to see you kicking around the blogosphere!
Stop by my blog sometime and buzz me. I’ve got a lot to tell you about!!!!!
. . .
July 22nd, 2005 at 3:19 pmAbe,
July 22nd, 2005 at 3:29 pmThe dirty little secret is that US firms were up to their eyeballs involved in oil-for-food scandal. The fact is that when Saddam was in power gassing Kurds – the Reagan adminstration sold him the gas to do it with and looked the other way. It is irrelevent what libs/dems thought about WMD (fact is many of us never believed it) – but assuming we did – we are not in power. BushCO invaded Iraq to pursue empire – PNAC. The lack of any WMD has proven that the WH lied. Debate is over. Therefore it was a lie – that is why the wh is so squirming over Plamegate. It has exposed these criminals for what they are. WMD was the lie for dhots like you – so you would go along with it. Liberals love America- hate the GOP for good reason – GOP is destroying America. And it is mindless lemmings like you that are enabling it. Who would Jesus bomb?
- jack
Or does comment 167 actually refer to something? I’ve got it… It’s some kind of code….
I think good ol’ Mikey is playing the race card.
Mike, of course, doesn’t realize that African-Americans try to vote, but Republican thugs like Kathy Harris and Kenny-boy Blackwell do their best to keep them from being able to.
July 22nd, 2005 at 3:32 pmAnother thing to remember is that the majority of these “true Americans” are inhabitants of the Confederate states – i.e. the traitor states, the slaveholding states. This isn’t a coincidence. These people have never been loyal to this country. They wanted to form a nation of barbarians 150 years ago, got their asses kicked and never got over it. This may sound harsh, but it’s an important fact. The homegrown traitors among us are in power right now. No one should be surprised they’re turning us into a nation without honor.
They put party before country just like they put the Confederate flag before the Stars and Stripes.
July 22nd, 2005 at 3:37 pmC-SPAN is now replaying the hearing on identifying a covert agent. TUNE IN NOW!!!!!!!
July 22nd, 2005 at 4:05 pmJack,
You said: “The dirty little secret is that US firms were up to their eyeballs involved in oil-for-food scandal.”
It’s a secret becuase no one knows it… except you, and you’re angry about it.
It’s not a secret that the Russians, German’s and France were in on it and you have no anger about it.
Don’t you think… now try to apply logic here, that if the corporations were in on it, as you suggest, they wouldn’t have wanted us to put a stop to what was earning them millions in Iraq?
Don’t type, think.
If it were so, why would the supposedly corrupt Bush administration want to destroy this big corporation money scheme?
Your logic seems lacking when applied to your own argument doesn’t it.
I don’t expect you to find reason in this argument. Your anger won’t allow you to apply logic with any rational. You are being deceived by the anger that controls your thought process.
You don’t seem to know jack, Jack.
Abe Noxious
July 22nd, 2005 at 4:26 pmMike you are an asshole:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/02/iraq.oil.smuggle/
quite disa-disa-disambling.
moron
July 22nd, 2005 at 4:45 pmAbe is hilarious. He trys to use that patented Rush-like condescension and believes that parroting his idol’s tone of voice guarantees him a win in any argument. He doesn’t realize that Rush only plays (like any coward) to a stacked house. He only sounds smart because he never has to face an honest debate.
Abe’s complete lack of moral perspective is typical of the right. An oil for food scandal (that DID involve Texas oilmen) in the UN upsets him, but he’s A-OK with our own government losing 9 BILLION dollars unaccounted for in Iraq. He lives in such a little bubble of people who think exactly like he does, that he’s never had to defend a single thought and congratulates himself that he therefore must always be compeletely right about everything. And as long as he can copy his dopefiend idol Rush’s arrogant condescension, he gets to persist in his delusion.
I’ve got a suggestion for you, Abe, and for Mike too. The DOD is raising the enlistment age to 42. They don’t care if you’re fat, crazy, retarded, a criminal or even if you’re a drug addict like Rush. So go out and see the world. Visit Iraq on Uncle Sam’s dime. See for yourself your principles in action!
July 22nd, 2005 at 4:45 pmIt’s the Jews stupid
July 22nd, 2005 at 4:46 pmI never said that Russia, France, Germany were clean on the oil for food deal. It has to do with removing a speck from your brothers eye – while you have a plank in yours.
July 22nd, 2005 at 4:47 pm- jack
Abe,
You got the wrong guy I want to know who forged the document the administration relied upon to help get us into Iraq. This must be important because the administration was pretty careless in outing a CIA agent. This is but one example of the information that was fixed by the administration to promote its ware. There must be much more. Someone should be disecting all the documentation these guys cited to see how many other forgeries they can come up. Kurt Vonnegut hit a right: A keystone cops take over of the country by c- students.
Jason
July 22nd, 2005 at 4:50 pmAbe normal and mike give a whole new (lower) meaning to Bush league.
July 22nd, 2005 at 4:52 pmThis link was meant for wingnut Abe:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/02/iraq.oil.smuggle/
Although it could apply to neoCon Mike as well.
Do you dimwits know that the Republican party CROWNED Reverend Moon – who proclaimed himself to be Christ on earth? Do you dimwits know that the Washington Times is owned and operated by Moon?
July 22nd, 2005 at 4:58 pm- jack
Heh. It’s fun to watch the facsists try to spin their heros’ treasonous actions. “Our” corporate-owned media have bent over backwards to protect the smirking sociopath and his gang of thieves over the years but even they can’t keep the wheels from coming off of this hell-bound wagon. Enjoy the ride, Dittoheads and Bushbots!
July 22nd, 2005 at 5:02 pmWhat a bunch of garbage coming from both sides of the political spectrum. Now I know why I don’t bother with blogs.
July 22nd, 2005 at 5:04 pmOh yeah, and I’m sure all of you war supporters have signed up to go do your patriotic duty to help invade other countries.
Gee, I’m so old that I remember when Saddam was our bastard. Those were the days, eh?
July 22nd, 2005 at 5:04 pmAbe -
“Don’t you think… now try to apply logic here, that if the corporations were in on it, as you suggest, they wouldn’t have wanted us to put a stop to what was earning them millions in Iraq?
Don’t type, think. If it were so, why would the supposedly corrupt Bush administration want to destroy this big corporation money scheme?”
How dumb do you have to be to realise that American companies are now better off? The companies remembered back to their days as School Bullies and decided that rather than take a portion of Iraqs lunch money for protection they could take not only all of the lunch money, but steal the source of all that money too. Even better they can get the US government to pay them billions on top of all the oil/money that they are getting from Iraq.
I guess they decided that they weren’t getting a big enough share before.
Z.
July 22nd, 2005 at 5:12 pmGary said:”Mike, of course, doesn’t realize that African-Americans try to vote, but Republican thugs like Kathy Harris and Kenny-boy Blackwell do their best to keep them from being able to.”
You’re still stuck on the 2000 election.
You seem to forget how the Democrats were caught in election fraud by trying to register thousands of people who didn’t exist.
Vote fraud in the Democratic camp has gone on since 1960 when Mayor Daley stole the election for Kennedy.
It’s a secret, only to you Gary, that the Democrats have tried to keep black Americans enslaved with government handouts.
As a fundy Christian I need to remind you that when you give charity to people with no desire to work, you are enabling them.
Christ told followers to care for the widows and orphans. Liberals demand that we take care of mothers widowed and their children orphans by the fact that they don’t know who the fathers are… nor do they, or you care.
As long as the rich (read: People who have worked hard to earn a living and become successful)are footing the bill, we need more of their money.
How many millionaires are there in the Democratic camp?
We’ve learned that they routinely take every tax break available to them while complaining that Bush is for big business.
It’s also been shown that Liberals give less to charity than do Republicans. (Red states vs. Blue states)
We’ve learned that more Republicans tend to be against abortion.
Ted Kennedy, an avowed Catholic, regularily votes against his own church’s views on abortion.
Here’s a man who leaves his Christianity at church and votes his true feelings… while they make totally conflict with his religious views.
How many other Catholic Democrats do the same thing?
If you don’t share the beliefs of your church… quit! Don’t use your church as a tool when it suits you.
God calls people who walk away from His laws; Hypocrites.
July 22nd, 2005 at 5:59 pmZwack,
What your logic fails to address is that we have yet to learn that corporate America was involved in the oil for food program or that they made millions as other countries did. You “assume” that they were, and build your argument on your assumption.
We KNOW that the Germans, Russians and French, who opposed the take down of Saddam, were involved.
Do you have any anger left for those countries… or can you only find anger in your heart for the American companies that you “assume” were making money?
Based on your argument, I can “assume” that you are hate America while embracing the misdeeds of foreign countries who oppose us.
Since you are a Democrat, I can also make the assumption that your party believes our country should bow to the wishes of all other nations despite their record of past abuses.
Do you make decisions in your family based on the wishes of your neighbors… even those neighbors that oppose you?
By lightly applying common sense it seems you’re fresh out of common sense.
Can you see why Americans assume that the Democrats have no clue and keep voting them out of office?
Things for the Democrats are going to get worse before they get better.
Americans have learned that they can’t trust the press.
People like Rush are offering people explainations that make sense to them.
Rush is hated by the Left because he exposes them as hypocrites, and clearly identifies their plans.
By the way, did you read last week that the deficit has shrunk faster than believed… as a result, in part, of the tax cuts?
If Bush is as dumb as the Left says he is yet he continues to make their predictions for our country inaccurate… how stupid must the Left be?
Hint:
If an idiot continues to outsmart you, you may be the idiot.
I’ll hang up and wait for my answer?
abe
July 22nd, 2005 at 6:21 pmAbe
“You’re still stuck on the 2000 election.
You seem to forget how the Democrats were caught in election fraud by trying to register thousands of people who didn’t exist.”
Is that similar to how the Republicans illegally evicted 10s of thousands of people off the voter roles through a partisan right wing company? Even though the majority of those on the eviction roles were later proven to be legitimate voters?
Please, your side has been guilty of voter fraud at a scale that makes everyone else look like amateurs. And lets not forget that when the same techniques used by the state department to determine the Ukranian election was a fraud were applied to Ohio, they show that in fact the election there was stolen as well!
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/121604Z.shtml
Your side systematically commits fraud, and when called on it instead of recognizing this as a problem you say ‘well you do it to’. For the party that ’supposedly’ stands for ‘values’, you always seem to justify your lack of them by saying that democrats don’t have them either? I thought the point was that conservatives claim that they do have values, not that they’re lacking any the same way democrats ’supposedly’ lack them. This irrational non-logical logic just makes you look retarded…
July 22nd, 2005 at 6:26 pmEtienne, I and lots of other true blue progressives are part of the “slave-holding states” you abhor. And plenty of us are fighting to turn our home states purple, like the good folks at http://comeandtakeit.blogspot.com/.
Ignorant diatribes from the left are no more attractive than they are from the right.
Though they usually do contain fewer spelling mistakes.
July 22nd, 2005 at 6:32 pmAbe,
The deficits are less due to accounting tricks and pillaging of SS. Rush is a lying son-of-a-bitch and if the pompous asshole would allow people with an opposing point of view call in – he would be exposed. Rush appeals to your
racist homophobic views – and is too chicken shit to debate anyone like Al Franken ’cause he would clean his clock.
Love your country and pay attention – you have been had.
-jack
July 22nd, 2005 at 6:34 pmRyan,
If all of this voting corruption is so widespread, why hasn’t the Liberal media been all over it?
They wouldn’t let go in 2000. Are you saying the press is now covering for the Republican Party?
Democrats are against values… They’re the party that is for sucking unwanted children out of a mother’s womb at her request, banning Bibles or allowing children to say a blessing over meals out loud at school.
I don’t believe that voting fraud is as widespread as you do… apparently a Liberal Press doesn’t either.
Let me remind you that Kerry lost, not just in Ohio, but in other states as well.
In 2000 Gore couldn’t convince his home state that he would make a good president.
Give it up Ryan. The truth is that Americans are sick of the Democratic way of doing things. That’s why they are being voted out of office in both the House and Senate and have been since 1994.
If that is difficult for you to grasp, you could be retarded
Your side still is devoid of a better plan. All they can do is throw stones at the current administration and try to find fault.
As stupid as the Left believes Bush is, he continues to beat them.
Can you hear me now?
July 22nd, 2005 at 6:46 pmAbe normal, I pray to a rock and my rock says, “Damn he is a bore” regurgitating thrice chewed gristle that has no bearing on what is going on today.
Now i’ll pray:
Oh GOD you are so huge
so really,really wonderful
and really just the greatest
so
Please God don’t burn us
don’t boil us in a pot
don’t put us on a barbecue
or fry us in a wok
Back from prayer; You really have swallowed it all, hook,line and sinker, havn’t you? Is there meaning to life now, knowing there is the evil lib dragon to slay? Primitive. You have to start listening to something else on the radio because I have heard everything you said over and over by the right wing Nazi boys.
July 22nd, 2005 at 6:50 pmHave you placed your order for EIB doormat or leather brodcast chair? Man you’ll buy anything.
Jack,
It’s always entertaining when the cursing appears here.
It shows how your anger has taken over your ability to control yourself and how your argument has lost value.
When cursing is used to “prove” your point, you’ve lost it.
I’ve exposed your anger problems in your past post Jack.
You can’t see it, much the same way you are unable to see the hypocracy in the Democratic Party.
You are blinded by anger Jack.
You might want to get that checked~
Abe
July 22nd, 2005 at 6:56 pmAbe,
July 22nd, 2005 at 7:02 pmI am independent not democrat. The republican party is the queen of hypocracy. Dems have been know to be same. But they are not in power now are they? It is the GOP that waves the flag, proclaims their piety – proclaims their support for the troops then guts the VAs funds, and fails to enlist to fight the war they so ardently support.
So in the interest of not cursing GO CHENEY YOURSELF dildo.
- jack
Funky Christian,
Since you apparently aren’t a Christian, it would be pointless to discuss things with you from a Biblical view.
If you can’t swim, stop cursing the water and get out of the pool.
July 22nd, 2005 at 7:05 pmABE normal,Projecting again? Only a truely angry person would be where he is not wanted,looking for an argument or rise out of others, for long periods of time, spouting things that are unpopular there and doing it in an obnoxiouis manner. OUT OF TOUCH ???????just like the rest of your opinions
July 22nd, 2005 at 7:08 pmRight, Abe normal you can swim along the surface and swallow the propaganda, hook, line and sinker.I prefer to dive in deep and look for the real truth. Careful Abe normal!!!, there are serpents down here with nasty big pointy teeth ready to rise up and chomp you waders in bits. I can see them, you can’t.
July 22nd, 2005 at 7:15 pmJack,
So you’re saying that as an independent, you didn’t vote Democratic in the last two elections.
What problems do you see currently with the Democratic Party and why do you believe they are falling further and further out of power?
What was your view of Kerry, particularily with his “band of brothers” who later disassociated themselves with him and became Swift Boat Veterans against him?
Since many of them weren’t Republicians themselves, do you think they were misguided… liars… baby killers?
As an independent, you can certainly offer clues to the Democratic Party as to why they have become so messed up politically. Perhaps they’re listening.
Perhaps you can tell them what they can do in the way of a plan to solve all this country’s problems… ya know, feed and house the poor, raise the salaries of everyone. Demand that rich corporations pay higher taxes without passing it along in the products they sell?
What about Iraq, Iran or China. What’s your well thought out solution?
What about Israel?
The blacks?
Education problems?
What about people with no job skills and multiple children who demand more welfare?
What about the crime rate in poor areas?
How do we solve every problem without raising the ire of any citizen?
What say you, Jack?
Abe
July 22nd, 2005 at 7:20 pmHey Jack,
July 22nd, 2005 at 7:25 pmMaybe people resort to swearing cause they are frustrated with what a hopeless head in the sand ostrich you, Mike and others are. Jack gave you a link to show you that the US was in fact a big part of the oil for food scandal. Did you bother to read the link? It proves that you just regurgitate what the right-wing machine feeds you. Back up your blather with facts and links or go away.
- chimpHater
Funky Christian,
Too bad you weren’t available to swim when Ted Kennedy drove Mary Jo off a bridge in his car 36 years ago and left her there to drown while he consulted with his lawyers about a plan to get away with it.
In your deep sea diving have you discovered any possible reason why he got away with her murder totally and continues to hold his role of Senator?
Sounds like you have taken the bait completely.
July 22nd, 2005 at 7:30 pmThe Democratic Party hooked you. They are master baiters.
You, and others like you, are their catch of the decade.
Abe,
The band-of-brothers are LIARS. This is a fact – ONLY one of them served with Kerry on the same boat – and he was quoted praising Kerry just a few years ago so he has no credibility. War makes people crazy – and many of our soldiers did commit attrocities – that is a fact sorry. Attrocities are occuring in Iraq right now. I blame our leaders not the soldiers.
July 22nd, 2005 at 7:30 pm-chimpHater
o yeah -
July 22nd, 2005 at 7:35 pmand ALL the men that served with Kerry (except for that one guy) supported Kerry. I will believe them before I believe the blowhards that were not even under his command nor on the same boat. http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/
-chimpHater
Chimp,
I see that hating is so much a part of you that you have made it your name.
As I explained, if this were real news the MSP would be all over it. If it’s speculation based on theory or heresay, it stays on a website…
Does that make sense to you?
Do you need a website to see that the Democrats have been steadily defeated in the House and Senate since 1993.
Do you need a website to understand that the Dems have lost the power they held for 40 years in both places?
Do you need a website to understand that the results of the 2004 election showed that Bush had a commanding lead over his opponent?
What is it you need a website link to understand?
Abe
July 22nd, 2005 at 7:36 pmjust before Fitzgerald is about to hand down indictments we’ll have a terror alert, powergrid w/blow or a London copycat bombing.
July 22nd, 2005 at 7:39 pmThe band of brothers are liars?
What is it about Kerry that they hated?
What had he done that made them speak out against him knowing that they would be attacked by his followers?
How is it that you know so much about what our soldiers were and are doing? Were or are you there? Do you have information that we haven’t seen?
Since you blame the leaders for attrocities and Kerry was a leader in a Swift Boat, do you think he should be tried and sentences for allowing attrocities to take place under his command?
Why would you have wanted a leader responsible for attrocities to lead our country?
Your logic is falling apart
Abe
July 22nd, 2005 at 7:42 pmOh what a tangled web we weave, when after 5 years we get carless in our efforts to deceive.
July 22nd, 2005 at 8:12 pmwinning elections does not make you right. And the problem is that guys like you believe they are right 100% of the time. The MSP – is cowed by the right wing, and is so far up the ass of the Republican party they can see the teeth from the rear. The cnn link that Jack gave you – PROVE that you are in fact a LYING ass. Regarding the elections, What part of no paper trail – voter suppresion in the thousand do YOU not understand. Make voting transparent and honest and I have nothing to say. Until then I and many like me will do all we can to resist and defeat Fascist like you. And yes- I do in fact hate the chimp and his adminstration and everything he represents – probably as much as you hated Clinton.
July 22nd, 2005 at 8:15 pm- chimpHater
America is dealing with the most corrupt government this country has ever seen, anybody that needs more proof before they can see the reality of it all must have an IQ smaller then their shoesize.
If America means anything to you then take to the streets by the millions and clean the White House…… God knows it’s long overdue
July 22nd, 2005 at 8:18 pmAbe,
I gave you a link that answers your questions. Just read
July 22nd, 2005 at 8:21 pmyou may learn something. They hate Kerry because they are asshole right-wing morons – that could not tell the truth if it slapped them in the face. Kerry had the balls to go to Vietnam – while GW was coking up and partying. Kerry have the balls to testify in front of Congress and quoted others about the attrocities that were commited. He told the truth and the SwiftBoat Liars could not stand it. These guys may or may not have commited atrocities – but for some reason they took humbrage in the fact that it was brought to life.
- chimpHater
Abe –
“The band of brothers are liars?”
Yes it is a fact.
“What is it about Kerry that they hated?”
That he was not Bush.
What had he done that made them speak out against him knowing that they would be attacked by his followers?”
He spoke the truth – and they did not want to be
associated with those that did rape, burn and pillage.
“How is it that you know so much about what our soldiers were and are doing?”
Abu Greb
“Were or are you there?”
Pictures all over the internet.
“Do you have information that we haven’t seen?”
yes – do a google on “Fallujah pictures”
“Since you blame the leaders for attrocities and Kerry was a leader in a Swift Boat, do you think he should be tried and sentences for allowing attrocities to take place under his command?”
No he had the guts to come back and do all he could to
stop the insanity. When I speak of leaders I mean
Kennedy, Johnson and now Bush.
“Why would you have wanted a leader responsible for attrocities to lead our country?”
I don’t that is why I want the current occupant
impeached
- buttensky
July 22nd, 2005 at 8:45 pmBoadicea, apologies. I know there are good people in the red states. I was 6 years in the Coast Guard and met many fine southerners, including some Civil War scholars who gave me a good appreciation of nuances of the Southern perspective on that evil event in our history. I got carried away trying to deal with the insane inanities of Abie here.
Abe, old boy, are you a human being or merely a dispensory of wingnut propaganda?
To quote you, why do you belong to a church if you don’t believe in it? Christ wouldn’t want you on here disparaging your fellow human beings. He wouldn’t ever have approved of the slimy Swift Boat Slanderers and wouldn’t want to hear anyone cover up for therm, especially using the false pretenses of “logic” that Rush and Sean spoon fed you like regurgitated bird food. The Christ I spend 12 school years studying daily didn’t care about cursing or sex or drinking or any of the other personal vices that afflict so many people, especially in your part of the country. He cared about one thing : LOVE. Everything else was completely by the way.
You identify yourself as a fundy. And as such, you explain why fundies are a blight upon our nation. They don’t have any allegience to the loving faith of Christ. They worship at the altar of judgment. They abuse and pervert the simple beautiful teachings of the peaceful prophet for social positioning and self congratulation.
And as an American, as an American VETERAN, come to think of it, I want to say your brand of patriotism is an equal abomination. This nation was founded by revolutionaries with one clear goal: to prevent the rise of a regal presidency. They knew that human nature was all too susceptible to sycophantic, unintelligent, blind followeres like yourself and tried to design a form of govenrment that would be immune from their subservient wish to worship one strong big-crotched Bush tyype. They, like Christ, would weep to see how our red state Americans have perverted and warped their creations into the living opposite of what they intended.
July 22nd, 2005 at 9:26 pmMike:
“What it really boils down to, crap face, is that you and millions of others of your left wingnuts still cannot get over the election of 2000.”
Actually, from your statement, it seems that what it really boils down to is that the Republicans can’t get over failing to convict Clinton in the Senate, and kick him out of office faster than they did.
Resorting to insults simply shows that you have no intellectual way to defend your statements.
But this is my personal opinion, and people can slam me for it all they want:
Clinton lied. Yes, he was wrong to do so. But when he lied, he was in a “perjury trap” — what’s that?
“It involves the government’s use of its investigatory powers to secure a perjury indictment on matters which are neither material nor germane to a legitimate ongoing investigation of the grand jury. See United States v. Crisconi, 520 F. Supp. 915, 920 (D. Del. 1981). Such governmental conduct might violate a defendant’s fifth amendment right to due process, Simone, 627 F. Supp. at 1267-72, or be an abuse of grand jury proceedings, Crisconi, 520 F. Supp. at 920.” The gist being — Clinton was being questioned about the Paula Jones affair, and was then asked questions that had nothing to do with Paula Jones, in order to get him to commit perjury.
In the case currently, however, the purpose of Rove and Libby’s testimony — the reason they were being questioned — was far from a perjury trap. Fitzgerald went in to find out who leaked a CIA operative’s name, and has conflicting answers regarding who did so. Fitzgerald did not, for example, start questioning Rove and Libby about financial records, and then slip in the questions about Plame to make them guilty of perjury.
Big difference in the two. If Rove and Libby really did lie to Fitzgerald, they’ll be guilty of two crimes — perjury and leaking classified information. Clinton was only guilty of perjury — if extramarital affairs were illegal, a lot more politicians than just Clinton would be in jail.
One other small point, and I’ll shut up.
Abe:
“By the way, since you are being undertaxed by the Republicans and your refund in 2002 was a horrible mistake, have you returned it yet?”
We all did. It was not a refund — it was an advance, which we paid back in the next year. If you were unlucky or stupid enough to have not had enough withheld from your paychecks that year, your tax bill would have been $300.00 higher, and all of our refund checks were $300.00 lower.
It was a mistake — instead of stimulating the economy by Americans going out and spending more money, most Americans used that “advance” to pay down debt.
A total failure.
July 22nd, 2005 at 9:29 pmTo Mike-
July 22nd, 2005 at 9:30 pmI know your having a great time tweaking these little libs…
but go easy on them, you know liberalism is a mental disorder.
No one with a correctly functioning brain could spew as much drivel as the lefties do. Pity them. Their hate is all they have left, they can’t win elections, they don’t have any ideas, and they get bullied by their Mommies and for that matter everyone else. Their very unhappy and pessimistic. Its
not nice to toy with them as a cat plays with a mouse. No say your sorry!
“I know your having a great time tweaking these little libs…
but go easy on them, you know liberalism is a mental disorder.”
I’m actually more inclined to believe that the “Mike” and “Abe” I responded to are simply attempting to get more comments posted on this article — the whole “Jeb in 2008″ nonsense made me laugh.
“No one with a correctly functioning brain could spew as much drivel as the lefties do. Pity them. Their hate is all they have left, they can’t win elections, they don’t have any ideas, and they get bullied by their Mommies and for that matter everyone else. Their very unhappy and pessimistic. Its not nice to toy with them as a cat plays with a mouse. No say your sorry!”
It’s so funny, that a person accusing liberals of having a mental disorder can’t even spell… Oh, wait, I’m being mean. You might be dyslexic — that’s not a mental disorder, it’s a “learning disability”….
If I’m going to be a liberal, I better be politically correct while I’m at it!
July 22nd, 2005 at 9:47 pmHey, we red-staters may be the knuckle dragging, sister-screwing morons that Jack, Etienne, et al claim, but, if the cultural civil war becomes violent, we red staters have 90% of the guns, thanks to NRA. You blue staters can fight with your spit balls and pea shooters. After all, a good liberal would not own a gun.
Come get us…I dare ya.
July 22nd, 2005 at 9:52 pmMike, you idiot, in what states do they make all the weapons that really count? You people will die of your own stupidity before we ever have to lift a finger to help you.
July 22nd, 2005 at 10:03 pmYak, you jackass (sorry Jack), we don’t need anyone to make us weapons…we already own them. I do not know anyone where I live who does not have at least two guns and enough ammo to last a while.
I am sure that pea shooters and sling shots are manufactured in the blue states.
By the way, my gun was manufactured in Texas and the last time I looked at the political map, it was red. And, if I am not mistaken, Ohio (hardly a southern state) went red this time, Florida has been red for a long time, albeit barely.
I’m just saying if you blue state neanderthals want to get ugly, bring it on.
I think you ought to change your politcal colors to yellow.
July 22nd, 2005 at 10:11 pmHey, I think I am getting the hang of this ad hominem name calling :)
July 22nd, 2005 at 10:13 pm220 posts. No this scandal is not going away.
Link it to the DSM and thats all she wrote for BushCo.
Good job Thinkprogress!
July 22nd, 2005 at 10:13 pmStart at the bottom and work your way to the top. It’s called “tag”. The DEA uses this method to get to the big man all the time.
Start singing little man, save yourself and rat out Bush.
Kudo’s to Patrick Fitzgerald!
July 22nd, 2005 at 10:16 pmI have bee watching CNN, NBC, MSNBC, and, believe me, this “scandal” is getting more attention on this blog than it is in the media.
Pipe dreamers who think this is going to bring down Bushco.
Too bad. Just another disappointment for the paranoid left.
July 22nd, 2005 at 10:17 pmJeanne, s’all good. I just couldn’t let the rhetoric pass uncommented. :)
And, yet, Mike/Abe with all your spewing distraction (and y’all do realize he’s running a distraction game, right? Let’s not let it work.)there’s still something you can’t change.
Karl Rove and Scooter Libby still face probable prosecution. Unless, of course, they’re rescued by a presidential pre-pardon. They are the Haldeman and Erlichman of the new Millenia, with added espionage.
This is all making me very curious about Judith Miller’s “source”. I think a good argument could be made for John Bolton playing G Gordon Liddy.
Which would give us the third of the three arrogant stooges.
Hope Judy’s enjoying her time in the Alexandria Detention Center. Prosecutor Fitzgerald, he ain’t playin’…
July 22nd, 2005 at 10:23 pmThe mike/abe normal retard tag team is quite unimpressive.They managed to spew forth a barage of stale idiotic rant fom right wing radio.Completely unoriginal. Sorry for interrupting your right wing fantasy.
July 22nd, 2005 at 10:47 pmBush cannot overturn a verdict that is litigated by a U.S. Attorney. Fitzgerald is a U.S. Attorney so don’t worry about Bushie veto-ing the convictions.
Besides Bushie will be trying to save his own ass on this thing. He may be stupid but he knows for sure the people have spoken and are demanding impeachment.
Notice how he has turned to domestic issues all of a sudden?
July 22nd, 2005 at 10:49 pmAt best Karl the swine will play alot of golf.
July 22nd, 2005 at 10:56 pmAt worst we may hear him squeal in prison.You sure have a purdy mouth Karl.
Jeanne,
Let’s go over your comments…since you’re a Christian woman.
You said:
Abe, old boy, are you a human being or merely a dispensory of wingnut propaganda?
Sounds like an attack with name calling. Good start Christian Girl.
Then you said:
To quote you, why do you belong to a church if you don’t believe in it? Christ wouldn’t want you on here disparaging your fellow human beings.
So then Christ would advise us not to speak out against those in the church who are acting ungodly. Those who claim to be followers while turning a blind eye to abortion, adultery etc. Our job as Christians is to accept others as they are and say nothing.
Isn’t that what happened in the Catholic Church with the Homosexual priests. Do you recall how that turned out?
Then you said:
He wouldn’t ever have approved of the slimy Swift Boat Slanderers and wouldn’t want to hear anyone cover up for therm, especially using the false pretenses of “logic� that Rush and Sean spoon fed you like regurgitated bird food.
How does this sentence stack up against your comment “Christ wouldn’t want you on here disparaging your fellow human beings.” Sounds to me as though you are disparaging your fellow human beings. What would Christ say about that…. according to you?
Then you said:
The Christ I spend 12 school years studying daily didn’t care about cursing or sex or drinking or any of the other personal vices that afflict so many people, especially in your part of the country. He cared about one thing : LOVE. Everything else was completely by the way.
So Christ doesn’t care about ungodly behavior. Love was his main objective. Why then did he speak out against the Religious Leaders of his day? Why didn’t he just love the people in the temple who were buying and selling instead of trashing the place? Why did he instruct people to stop their sinning… after all, he didn’t care about the behavior of others.
It seems you spent 12 years studying a different Christ.
Then you said:
You identify yourself as a fundy. And as such, you explain why fundies are a blight upon our nation. They don’t have any allegience to the loving faith of Christ. They worship at the altar of judgment. They abuse and pervert the simple beautiful teachings of the peaceful prophet for social positioning and self congratulation.
Calling attention to ungodly behavior is the alter of judgement? Would you then agrue that it is better to embrace ungodly behavior then to speak out against it?
Better to conform to this world than to be transformed to the renewing of our hearts?
How can we avoid sin if we can’t shed light on it?
Why did it take 12 years for your to finish your studies?
Then you said:
And as an American, as an American VETERAN, come to think of it,
You momentarily forgot you were a Veteran….
you went on:
I want to say your brand of patriotism is an equal abomination. This nation was founded by revolutionaries with one clear goal: to prevent the rise of a regal presidency. They knew that human nature was all too susceptible to sycophantic, unintelligent, blind followeres like yourself and tried to design a form of govenrment that would be immune from their subservient wish to worship one strong big-crotched Bush tyype. They, like Christ, would weep to see how our red state Americans have perverted and warped their creations into the living opposite of what they intended.
Well your “big-crotched Bush” comment certainly shows your heart.
I don’t believe you spent 12 years studying Christ. It may have taken you 12 years to read it, but it doesn’t appear you walked away with much more than a couple of scriptures that you are applying “liberally” out of context.
Suppose you tell us a little more anout your 12 year study.
Was it a school, a church?
What did you make of the mean Prophets of the Old Testament who spoke out against those governments who wanted God out of their behavior and the consequenses of those countries who failed to listen?
You figure Christ would embrace a nation that forbids any mention of Him, His laws or the stories of His life here.
You learned (for 12 years) of a Christ who told us to worship him in secret, lie low, say nothing about behavior that might lead others to sin, (Yes, I’m talking about Clinton’s behavior and the Democratic talking point that sex doesn’t matter) and just love everyone without judgement or comment.
If you paid for this education I hope you kept the receipt, you should demand a refund.
Abe
July 22nd, 2005 at 11:55 pm“Hey, we red-staters may be the knuckle dragging, sister-screwing morons that Jack, Etienne, et al claim”.
Finally, the truth from the extreme right!
July 23rd, 2005 at 12:09 amI believe you’ve all noticed that the Karl Rove thing is going nowhere.
You want to keep beating a dead horse but as you’ve learned, he’s not even on the radar screen for an investigation.
All you’ve really got is an awful lot of misplaced anger.
Let me give you a direction.
Aim at those who view God as an enemy of the State.
Who forbid any mention of Him.
Aim it at the homosexuals who demand to be treated as wife/wife, husband/husband and annoy Christ followers.
Aim it at yourselves while your at it.
Goodnight
July 23rd, 2005 at 12:44 amThese right wing nuts are out of work geek freaks who could care less about America or the Constitution. The GOP is actually paying them to blog and troll for them, that is what desperate people who have too much money do.
July 23rd, 2005 at 12:57 amObviously the world already knows , as they see through from their own histories what a mess Bush and Co is making of ours.
These losers are the problem not the solution, shame on them. They are loyal to Duhbya, not to the Democracy.
So many mental mallets, so few balls of yarn (and you can quote me on that). With exception to about 5%, this entire roster of comments (196 prior to this) gives ample credence to Cal. Gov.s observation: “95% of people need to be told what to do and how to behave”. Unfortunately, the ‘95%’ referred to by Cal. Gov., all think they are the other 5% (which is really annoying to those of us who recognize the simian upstarts proclivity for attention gathering as opposed to fact finding…), and all seem to have found the rock lifted HERE. Squint, swish (that was a ‘blink’) “ouch, the light hurts my eyes”, “there’s dirt in the water”. Particularly boorish, obtuse & mediocre (read as ’stunted’) is this fool ‘abenoxious’: “Fool, you swagger like a rue vendeuse who’s just learned she’s got an STD and wants to return the favor in kind.” And ‘abenoxious’? What’s that supposed to be…witty? Creative? Was ‘abehole’ taken? Or was the faux moniker you came up with a ‘vision’ from a urinal as opposed to a reflection from a toilet bowl? Clever! But not ‘too’. abe, I’ll probably never see this site again, but that’s not important. In the end, I just want you to learn something: YOU NEVER GET A SECOND CHANCE TO MAKE A FIRST IMPRESSION. Your small doings here, are highly reflective of your station in life…I wouldn’t forget that. In terms of the article, I wouldn’t forget this: all roads lead to 9/11. There will be no prissy impeachments with surrey rides to country estates. No mere puppets for the public maw this time. No soiling of military tradition with firing squads (afterall abe, these ‘patriots’ you defend are the same jackyls whose fathers coffers bought them their ‘freedom from duty’ in a time of war, while the real ‘patriots’ got slaughtered defending a dream your hero/killers have all but destroyed for the singular sake of their greed…). No, this time, there will be hangings. Many and sundry. Let the punishment fit the crime. In my heart abe, I think you know this. But you won’t see it: you’ll be back under that rock, hiding from the light, a filthy, shamefilled, mollusk, with a gnawing appetite. Some things, never change.
July 23rd, 2005 at 2:50 amSo who’s organistion the revolution?
Seems that about the only way to reform US politics today.
Sad but true.
July 23rd, 2005 at 3:19 amYip, looking at the last few posts, a revolution is way overdue. Why? Dumb people fight and the dumbest lose and better still the dumbest die bigtime. Should just about double the IQ of america. With a marginally higher IQ amounst the voting public we can rid ourselves of the Bush supporters for good. Hell, I’ll die for that! Where do I sign up?
July 23rd, 2005 at 3:23 amYou sign up in hell :)
July 23rd, 2005 at 3:55 amAbe, 12 years of Catholic school is a little different I imagine from the fundy larnin’ y’all get down there. Catholics actually have a distinguished intellectual record and are the founders of many of our finest universities, Georgetown, Fordham, Boston College, just a few that spring to mind.
It’s clear you suffer from the blight of what my South Carolina friends call Yankee Kee-ristianity. That is, bastardized Christianity that is obsessed with judgement of others’ personal behavior, constant self congratulation and sexual obsession. Unlike you, I could care less about identifying myself as a Christian. In fact, Christ was most disgusted by those who called attention to their own piety and only praised the ones who worshipped silently and in private, without seeking the admiration of peers. You represent the stark opposite of Christ’s vision. Deal with it.
I didn’t forget I was a veteran, it was a joke. Yes, I spent 6 years in the CG and am very proud of it. Unfortunately, watching my country being run by incompetent Mayberry Machiavellis has made it very difficult to maintain that pride. Especially when I visit family in Ireland and they express such disgust for our country’s actions. They think we are the most unprincipled and violent people on earth, and none will even visit us here.
It’s a great job your revolting president has done. Destroyed our Army, our economy, our honor and our social civility, all while sitting up there like a baby with a poop in his diaper who has no idea what he has done.
Will the enlightened portion of this nation ever be able to reclaim it? I’m not sure. We are up against snakes and scorpions, as this Rove investigation shows, who will resort to any degree of theft and trickery to win, who have no morals, no patriotism, no respect for humanity. It is hard to fight against such people, especially from within, but there is no excuse not to keep trying.
July 23rd, 2005 at 7:30 amThe frightening thing about this is that the WH m.o. when the heat gets turned up, is to create a media diversion and it is high time for a “new attack” that will dwarf 9/11. The plan is there, just waiting for the go ahead and it will give the WH an excuse to establish Marshall Law and censor the media for the cause of “homeland security”. Good luck my friends. I have already started a new life abroad, until we take back (if possible) our country. And for your ultra-conservs, I am not left or a dem, just an ordinary former citizen of the USSA. God help you all!!!
July 23rd, 2005 at 7:51 amBravo Jeanne, no better words spoken in this column. Keep it coming!!!!
July 23rd, 2005 at 7:58 amJeanne,
Who gives a damn what the Irish think of us? I, too, have relatives abroad and they, too, think we have gone off the deep end. But, it is not Bush’s fault…it is the liberal media’s fault. The New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, BBC, Michael Moores, Dan Blather, and others who have really hurt America. They hate Bush and don’t care if they bring down America as long as they can bring him down.
Tell your Irish kin people to stay in Ireland. We have enogh drunks here already.
July 23rd, 2005 at 9:36 amJeanne,
I don’t consider Catholics to be Christians.
They pray to statues, confess their sins to men and they have no concept of what the Bible says…
For instance, you aren’t supposed to bow down to statues, pray to dead people, confess your sins to anyone but God… and you obviously have no idea the Bible says that… or you’ve chosen to ignore it.
12 years down the drain.
You accepted the Kool Aid of the Catholic Church so it’s no wonder you have put your faith in the Democrtaic Party with all their rhetoric.
How do you weigh the Democratic abortion issues with the views of your church?
I’ll tell you.
You think your politics is more important…just like elected Catholics.
Find a nondenominational church and you can learn the truth inside of 2 weeks.
Many Catholics are being deprogramed at Christ centered churches
By the way, you’re hatful words about our president say more about your heart than you professed 12 years of Catholicism.
Why can’t you love the president? Isn’t that what Christ would do.
Another hypocrital Democrat
Abe
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 9:48 amMike
July 23rd, 2005 at 10:18 amIt’s people like you that bring America down, your extreme stupidity and lack of common sense is preventing you from seeing the obvious, I honestly feel sorry for you, you’ve been “dumbed down” by the system.
I hope for you, that before it’s to late, you will realize this and start thinking for yourself.
Prissy #233, I’m thinking thinkprogress hires the extremists who post here.
Their presence certainly makes the left and middle appear more intelligent and informed.
It isn’t hard to appear intelligent when compared to the extremists afterall. A person with a 6th grade education appears smart against these guys.
July 23rd, 2005 at 11:01 amWe must physically remove them.
July 23rd, 2005 at 12:46 pmIt is the only way.
It is way past due.
We must unite, by the millions.
WE NEED A LEADER.
Mike,
You proved Jeanne’s point in your ignorant response.
Judgemental. Biggoted. Defensive of the indefensible.
Breathtakingly stupid and in denial.
In many blogs we liberals warned not to take eye of getting
the bastard OBL. Where is he Mike?
We warned that the intel on Iraq was suspect – and were
skeptical. where is the WMD?
We argued with our conservative friends that Saddam and
Osama hated each other – no connection. This lack of
connection is no longer in dispute except by the most
rose colored glassses wearers. Yet people went into the polls believing this absolute lie.
We warned that W would attack SS. Before you respond with
talking points – two words for you. Grover Norquist.
Karl Rove has outed a covert agent. Incaculable damage to
our credibility in the intel community in the world. We
need all the co-operation we can get – visa-vi intel.
Can you honestly sat Roves actions were helpful? If you
were truly intellectually honest (there are some republicans that agree with me) – and Rove had a D next to his name – he would be toast. Right?
Despite you quoting Rush B.S. about the “Liberal Media”
That has been an effective canard for you guys, but
demonstratively false. Common sense: It is about the bottom line, and it is about greed. The top executives of the top media conglomerates overwhelmenly give to the GOP. The GOP pays them back huge dividends in the form of de-regulation and tax breaks. Now since shit rolls downhill, are the worker bees going to create disharmony in the hive?
What is truly scary is that – yes there are many like
you and Abe. Followers of a False Prophet. Pharisees
of our day.
laddy
July 23rd, 2005 at 12:56 pmBravo laddy. You left out only one thing. Bushie holds hands with Bandur and it was Bandur’s people who attacked America. Bandur has resigned his position as diplomat to the U.S. which causes that relationship to be even more suspect.
Can we start blaming the Saudi’s now?
July 23rd, 2005 at 1:07 pm>Besides Bushie will be trying to save his own ass on this thing. He may be stupid but he knows for sure the people have spoken and are demanding impeachment.
That’s why he will pardon them before it comes to that.
Learned at least that much from his Daddy, he did. Course, who knows what what other life lessons might have been passed along while he labored in Daddy’s tall shadow?
July 23rd, 2005 at 2:25 pmHe can pardon them and the we can re-open each and every case after impeachment.
George Ryan former Illinois (R)governor (also being prosecuted by Fitzgerald) gave all Illinois death row inmates a stay and then left office.
Those inmates are being re-reviewed, they are not off the hook, and Ryan is no longer Governor.
July 23rd, 2005 at 2:49 pmThe amazing thing is that you folks have no idea who the enemy is, because the real enemy has hardened your hearts to seeing him.
The Democratic party is opposed to God. They’re opposed to any mention of him in our schools and our government.
They embrace sodomy, homosexuality, abortion and same sex marriage. They don’t want parents to be involved if a child chooses to abort her child and they attack anyone who opposes these perversions as bigots.
You foolishly believe in global warming as though man is in charge of this world and can we destroy ourselves while God looks on helplessly.
You have conformed yourselves to this world by making God’s law null and void, and you can’t see it because to do so would force you to rethink your politics.
You anger and your hate control your thoughts and you are powerless to stop it.
I read this week of a school pricipal who demanded a teacher remove a photo of president Bush from her classroom.
Liberal Democrats are filled with a hate that destroys them.
It’s sad, yet it was predicted thousands of years ago.
God has given you up to your sinful ways.
If you need further proof, ask yourself who you hate in this world and then ask how your hate effects your thoughts, words and actions.
If you still don’t get it… go up two paragraphs and re-read those two sentences.
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 2:49 pmLaddy,
You spak of a false prophet. Wouldn’t that be someone who tries to erase God from our country?
Wouldn’t that be someone who embraces abortion, pornography, practices adultery and destroys the concept of marriage?
(God refers to turning from him word as adultery)
Wouldn’t a false prophet be someone whose actions are in direct opposition to God’s?
Your name calling and fear reveal you who you really are.
You have been blinded to it becuase you have chosen to be.
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 2:57 pmHey Keith,
You said: We must unite, by the millions.
WE NEED A LEADER.
You have a leader, he’s Howard Dean
Yeeee haaaaa!
Perhaps you forgot because he embarrasses you (and your party)
July 23rd, 2005 at 3:21 pmHe is fun to listen to though
Susan,
You said: It isn’t hard to appear intelligent when compared to the extremists afterall. A person with a 6th grade education appears smart against these guys.
If you read some of the prior posts here you’d learn that your party has been losing elections and power in government steadily since 1993.
You full education can’t be as effective as the 6th grade education you spoke of if you can’t grasp that fact.
You also said: …the left and middle appear more intelligent and informed.
How intelligent and informed can they possibly be if they can’t get the majority of Americans to agree with their plan for leading America?
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 3:27 pmahhh ahh ahhh oooo ahhh
My son Abe,God is laughing his ass off at you. You have managed to mangle all of my beleifs and twist them into a self- righteous babble that is in opposition to my teachings on Earth. Please make my time amongst the children of Earth have some meaning, because after reading this doo doo I feel I have wasted my time.
…And as I think about it, I just might not be back. You are on your own!
July 23rd, 2005 at 4:11 pmAbe
You pittyful creature, what have they done to you?
It is you who is opposed to God and being blinded by the Anti-Christ.
Give your head a shake when you pull it out of the sand/bible.
In Gemany they also removed the pictures of Adolph Hitler out of the class rooms, once they woke up
No God can possibly agree with this madness of destroying this planet and his children.
Please have it in your heart to accept the truth, it’s net to late
July 23rd, 2005 at 4:14 pmJohn,
Your hatred has apparently blinded you to the truth.
You didn’t bother with my question about why the Democrtatic Party would embrace abortion, remove any mention of God from schools, demand that children not bring Bibles to school or give an out loud blessing before their meal.
You also apparently believe that man is in charge of the weather. Your God is incapable of saving us. Global warming, living our lives, will cause our destruction because there is no God powerful enough to save us from ourselves.
Determine for yourself if Christ would want us to abandon his commandments when it comes to our political beliefs.
Would He embrace abortion? Would He tell us to hide our devotion from the rest of the world?
If you knew God you would understand.
Your party hates with a vengance. You are out to destroy Bush anyway you can.
The truth is that God is in charge.
You can’t handle the truth.
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 4:38 pmAnd so “Jesus”
Tell us your views on abortion?
Does it make you happy that any mention of you has been removed from schools?
That prayers to you are now crimes?
Are you happy that The Ten Commandments that were given as ways to a better life have been removed because they offend those people who hate you?
You obviously believe “Jesus”, that the real Jesus won’t return. You’re betting your life on it.
You’re not alone, many people have… and they have a party.
July 23rd, 2005 at 4:45 pmIt’s called The Democratic Party.
Abe, thanks for reminding the Catholics who were so important in Bush’s wins that your ilk doesn’t even consider them Christians. You remind everyone who reads here what frightful bigotry and hatred is represented by the wretched “fundies”. Are you also a Rapture fan? You are a particularly Southern US type of religious lunatic it seems, the kind that the amoral, hedonistic Republicans so eagerly exploited for your laughably predictable voting behavior.
We aren’t going to get anywhere on the religious front ,Abe. Try to remember that Jesus only wanted you to love your fellow man. Nothing more complicated than that. Keep it simple, stupid. And please stop perverting his beautiful philosophy with your insane need to control and judge everyone you come in contact with. Democrats are not out to get you, paranoid weirdo. They are your fellow Americans exercising their Constitutional rights.
For the last time, take your stinking perversions of Christianity and Democracy and go slobber over yourself in private someplace. I’m sure the ‘possums and the water rats will enjoy listening to your ravings more than we do.
July 23rd, 2005 at 4:49 pmAbe/etc,
It’s called seperation of church and state, Abe, not to mention freedom of religion, meaning no government-proposed religion.
No Dem or Lib is for abortion itself, but we are for the right to choose because we know abortion will still happen if made illegal, and in that case it should be conducted safely instead of back alleys with Dr. Nick. Not everybody can offord to send their pregnant daughters to another country where abortions would still be legal, like what has happened.
Lastly, DO NOT preach to me about God, Jesus or the contents of the Bible until you bother reading it. Name one thing Jesus would condone pertaining to your hate-filled blatherings or those of the current BushCo administration. As a Lib who was raised and educated in Christianity and other religions, I am nauseated by the blasphemy that issues forth from those who profess godliness yet act unaccordingly.
Read Dante’s Inferno and ponder which circle of Hell suits your character traits.
July 23rd, 2005 at 5:07 pmAbe, George W. Bush is not God, and the Republican leadership is not comprised of the Archangels Michael, Gabriel, et al.
They are frightened, venal, fallible men and women who have wrapped themselves with a flag that represents principles upon which they spit. Then, when that is pointed out, they try on the shoes of the fisherman when they have utterly forgotten the path he set his church upon.
FTR, I’m not a believer in God, but a practitioner of Buddhism.
And I still have better Christian principles that Karl Rove, whose real patriotic allegiance is to the petty political vendetta, and who’s respect for the holy bonds of matrimony is such that he will declare the wife of a political opponent “fair game”. Before Joe Wilson, there was John McCain and a whole host of others, after all.
The Republican Party has become the Party for which the buck never stops.
July 23rd, 2005 at 5:10 pmJeanne,
You’re right, We aren’t going to get anywhere on the religious front. That’s mainly because after 12 years of training you don’t know what the Bible says.
You were “trained” by a religion that shielded child molesters from the law. Your offerings paid for massive out of court settlements to keep them quiet.
The sins of the priests in your religion has messed up the lives of thousands of children but, as I say, he swallowed the Kool-Aid despite all the evidence that showed the church for what it was.
If you’d spend any time in the word you’d know that while Christ spent time with the worst of sinners of his day, once they accepted Him they aknowledged their sins and turned from them.
The Christ you “studied for 12 years” apparently delighted in sin and chose to ignore it rather than embarrass possible followers.
Maybe that’s the Catholic version of the Bible.
I’m sure my ravings bother you. That’s why you’ve chosen not to answer the questions regarding “your church”
July 23rd, 2005 at 5:18 pmIf you attack me and my Southern religion (I’m from the Midwest) you don’t have to defend the church that misguided you for 12 years.
Boadicea said: I’m not a believer in God, but a practitioner of Buddhism.
That speaks volumes.
I didn’t say that Bush was God. If you read that in my post you may have a reading comprehension problem.
As you may not have comprehended from reading the Rove story, he hasn’t been accused of a crime.
The fact that you have accused him of a crime doesn’t make him a criminal and probably confirms his innocence.
You folks have an uncanny ability to spot crimes that haven’t been committed while overlooking crimes that have been committed (ie: Clinton lying under oath, Senator Kennedy killing a woman, failing to call for help for 10 hours and getting away with it.)
As I’ve pointed out, you have plenty of anger and hatred within you. That can’t be good… unless you find some pleasure in feeling miserable and hating others. I don’t know, is that a Buddhist thing?
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 5:27 pmSkid,
You said: Name one thing Jesus would condone pertaining to your hate-filled blatherings or those of the current BushCo administration.
Well he said you should love your God with all your heart. He told us we should reject the values of this world and embrace God.
He told us we shouldn’t hide our “light” (read: beliefs) but put them on a lampstand where others can see them. (Not suspending children for praying in school or bringing a Bible)
He told us not to murder (abortion?) To trust him (Global warming???)
And to love one another as you love yourself.
You said: They are frightened, venal, fallible men and women who have wrapped themselves with a flag that represents principles upon which they spit. Then, when that is pointed out, they try on the shoes of the fisherman when they have utterly forgotten the path he set his church upon.
I don’t know what you think they’re frightened of. They have certainly conquered the Democratic Party who have yet to come up with a plan while continuing to complain about what’s wrong.
Now that I’ve answered your questions, can you answer mine?
What would Christ say about the Democratic plan that includes:
1. Ridding His name from schools and government,
2. Keeping abortion legal and secret from a child’s parents
3. Keeping prayer out of school
4. Suspending children who bring Bibles to school
5. Same sex marriage
This will keep you busy for awhile.. unless you choose to ignore them.
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 5:44 pmOne last thing Skid,
You said: “As a Lib who was raised and educated in Christianity and other religions…”
I think that’s where your problem lies.
You’ve studied so many religions that you don’t know what the truth is. You have a smorgasboard of religions to pick and choose from and you’ve created your own religion.
Shall we call it Skidism?
Answer the questions I posed and try to find out what you really believe. The truth may shock you.
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 5:50 pmSkid:
Take your comment: “No Dem or Lib is for abortion itself, but we are for the right to choose because we know abortion will still happen if made illegal, and in that case it should be conducted safely instead of back alleys”
Now substitute the word: “murder” for “abortion”, and read it back out loud to yourself a few times and see if you still agree with what you say.
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 6:12 pmSkid said: “Read Dante’s Inferno and ponder which circle of Hell suits your character traits.”
You know that was fiction…. right Skid?
July 23rd, 2005 at 6:25 pmYour questions are moot Abe, due to seperation of Church and state, as well as “render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s, unto God what is God’s”. In this, the US Constitution and Bill of Rights TRUMPS the multitude of religious interpretations. I am not confused as to what the differences are between the various religions (and their sub-sects) of the world and throughout its history. It could ALL very well be crap, but that is not provable either way.
Rather than blathering about what you think you know, try learning about what you know little about or practice.
We could all do well with a little Skidism in our lives. It would show fools such as yourself for what they are and advocate.
July 23rd, 2005 at 6:27 pmAbe, do you know WHY Dante’s Inferno was written? If you do, it should hit quite close to home.
July 23rd, 2005 at 6:31 pmSo Skid, with all your religious education you’ve come to learn that none of them are as important as government.
That could make you moot one day.
Christianity is proveable. And you can find more original manuscripts of for the New Testament than you can for Dante’s Inferno (which you may or may not know is fiction)
You haven’t addressed any of the questions I posed so I’ll assume you’ve chosen to ignore them.. that or you have a reading comprehension disorder…
July 23rd, 2005 at 6:32 pmSkid,
What difference does it make WHY a piece of fiction was written?
What I want to know is why you refuse to address the questions about the Political Party you embrace?
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 6:34 pmWhat part of separation of church and state do you not get, Abe? Thats your answer. Don’t like it? Then search elsewhere for your answer, but don’t act as if you weren’t offered an answer.
July 23rd, 2005 at 6:42 pmSo because there is a separation of church and state, abortion should be legal, parents should not be notified if their children are pregnant and request an abortion, children should be suspended for carrying a Bible or praying in school and uttering God’s name in schools is a crime.
I guess freedom of religion and speech shouldn’t apply to Christians.
Do you think it should be acceptable for a student to wear a relgious garment to school if it is required by their religion… or would that be a violation of church and state?
July 23rd, 2005 at 6:48 pmIf it is offensive to others, be it because of their own religion, ethnicity, culture, etc, then yes it should be banned, or at least discussed in an IMPARTIAL forum so it can be rectified. But make NO MISTAKE, separation of church and state IS in the US Constitution, so love the country or leave it, otherwise convince an overwhelming majority of Americans to change it.
July 23rd, 2005 at 6:56 pmWhy do you mock me Abraham?
July 23rd, 2005 at 6:58 pmWant to wear a cross, turban, yamika, red dot, whatever I don’t care, but cram it down my throat and I will fight you. In this case Christianity is to be professed to others in spreading the word, NOT forced upon them. Did you ever bother to read that passage in the Bible? It also says that God will judge, not you.
July 23rd, 2005 at 7:02 pmSkid said: “If it is offensive to others, be it because of their own religion, ethnicity, culture, etc, then yes it should be banned or at least discussed in an IMPARTIAL forum so it can be rectified.”
Yet children praying over their meal out loud or carrying a Bible to school has become a crime.
How is it that we can discuss some religions and we ban others?
How do you spread the word to others if you’re not allowed to discuss it, refer to it or carry a Bible in any public forum?
The children who were suspended were practicing their religion in public. They weren’t forcing it down anyone’s throat.
The Constitution guarantees each person’s freedom to practice their religion as they see fit.
Skid, I’m not judging, I’m discussing your comments. If you feel as though you are being judged perhaps you aren’t secure in your belief system… or perhaps your party’s platform makes you uneasy.
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 7:29 pmSkid (and others)
You embrace a political party that endorses a mother’s right to choose to kill her unborn baby but would charge the child’s father or anyone else with murder if their actions caused the child’s death prior to being born.
If one is murder, the other should be murder (one) as well.
Can you explain why a mother should be allowed to murder her child before birth but if someone else does it, it’s regarded as murder?
The Republican view is that both should be murder. As Democrats who can clearly identify right and wrong I’d like to get your take on this.
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 7:38 pmSend them all here:
http://christianexodus.org/
Then, I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.
July 23rd, 2005 at 7:48 pmYet children praying over their meal out loud or carrying a Bible to school has become a crime.
This is bullshit. It is not a criminal statute. The crime would be the same as Judith Miller’s, contempt of a court order. You are an idiot. Please martyr yourself, like your Jihadi counterparts. Do us all a favor.
perhaps you aren’t secure in your belief system…
Keep “your beliefs” to yourself. Get the hell out of public schools. You are only there to cause trouble. Stay home and read your books. Some of us choose not to believe in “supertitions and conspiracy theories” and revealed religions. Some of us who choose not to believe in such bullshit have a far more rewarding spiritual life than a tiny small mind such as yours could ever know.
July 23rd, 2005 at 7:57 pmThe Republican view is that both should be murder. As Democrats who can clearly identify right and wrong I’d like to get your take on this.
Abe
Again, bullshit. The Republican and conservative view has nothing to do with your theocratic and Dominionist activism and bullshit. You are soon to find that out in a very real and painful way, during the upcoming elections.
July 23rd, 2005 at 8:00 pmDwayne,
I see you weren’t able to defend your party on the abortion issue either.
Rather than discuss issues you call me names and ask me to leave. That is so Democratic of you.
you said: “Some of us choose not to believe in “supertitions and conspiracy theoriesâ€? and revealed religions”
I guess you haven’t been reading this board. It’s all about a conspiracy theory about Karl Rove.
I love it when Democrats surrender rather than defend their party’s politics. It’s so… French!
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 8:05 pmDwayne said: “You are soon to find that out in a very real and painful way, during the upcoming elections.”
How many times did you say that prior to the last election Dwayne?
No, seriously Dwayne, how many?
10 times 30? maybe 100? Be honest now.
What was the result?
Was it what you predicted…. or where you 100% wrong?
I’m trying to test your memory skills.
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 8:09 pmI love it when you swear Dwayne. It makes you sound so, so, I don’t know… mature.
I’ll bet the ladies love it too. It shows your vast grasp of the language and your self control.
On the plus side, if you mess yourself in your anger, you can always “shout it out”
July 23rd, 2005 at 8:14 pmI think everyone realizes by now that Abe is a sick guy, a very scared baby of the Left Behind cult. I only hope he isn’t going to hurt anyone, as he sounds to be almost catatonic in his self insulated rage.
What has happened politically is that truly sick individuals like Abe have been given a sense of belonging to some kind of victory, and it is clear from his ravings that he feels the need to declare himself, and all his thoughts, victorious over others. The truth is that sad little men at keyboards are starved for that feeling of victory in their world where all pleasure is sin and Jesus is a scary vengeful monster.
In other words, he’s loco. We should stop playing with the monkey.
Bye Abe. You’re right. You’re a big winner, a real big boy. And you’ll always win forever and ever. Whatever it is you think your prize is, enjoy it. But it’s really pathetic that you’re on here replying every 3 minutes to people you say you loathe, trying to be condescending to strangers in cyberspace who are laughing at every ridiculous stereotype you write. Go take a nap already.
July 23rd, 2005 at 8:27 pmJeanne said:
I think everyone realizes by now that Abe is a sick guy, a very scared baby of the Left Behind cult. I only hope he isn’t going to hurt anyone, as he sounds to be almost catatonic in his self insulated rage.
Let’s see Jeanne, you began this by spouting your 12 years of religious education and then were unable to defend that religion in one post. You gave up entirely.
I’ve never read the Left Behind series. I don’t believe in a rapture. You also said I was from the South. So far you’re 0 for 2.
You went on:
What has happened politically is that truly sick individuals like Abe have been given a sense of belonging to some kind of victory, and it is clear from his ravings that he feels the need to declare himself, and all his thoughts,victorious over others.
You declared yourself a religious expert with 12 years of training. When I asked you defend that 12 year study you couldn’t. Now religious talk is “raving” to you.
If you can’t defend your own religion then you’ve obviously been duped or “swallowed the Kool Aid” as they say here.
Yet you went on:
The truth is that sad little men at keyboards are starved for that feeling of victory in their world where all pleasure is sin and Jesus is a scary vengeful monster.
I asked you about the sins that run rampant in the Democratic Party. Abortion for one. I’ve still not read a reply.
Then you said:
In other words, he’s loco. We should stop playing with the monkey.
Earlier today when you were a 12 year scolar of the Catholic faith, you said Christ wants us to love everyone.
Now you’re name calling and pleading with people to stop writing to me… all the while failing to come up with any defense for your religion.
The point I’ve been making here is that you folks have no ideas. You don’t know what to believe in and you can’t defend what you think you’ve chosen.
This is exactly why you keep losing elections. The American people want a party with solutions not childish name calling.
Christ made it clear to His followers what we are to do. The fact that you missed the message for 12 years falls on the school you chose to teach it to you.
In conclusion you said:
Bye Abe. You’re right. You’re a big winner, a real big boy. And you’ll always win forever and ever. Whatever it is you think your prize is, enjoy it. But it’s really pathetic that you’re on here replying every 3 minutes to people you say you loathe, trying to be condescending to strangers in cyberspace who are laughing at every ridiculous stereotype you write. Go take a nap already.
I wanted to have a debate but no one here had a position they could defend. Neither with politics, the enviornment or religion.
If they are laughing, it’s nervous laughter becuase they have no counter point.
You folks have had plenty to say about the imagined crimes of Karl Rove. You couldn’t stop speculating. It wasn’t until you were challenged on your beliefs that you got suddenly silent.
In the end all you could do was swear, name call and beg me to leave.
One of the important things about having a position is being able to defend it, if you can’t, it might be time to rethink it… or you’re just drinking the “Kool-aid”
Why not pick up a Bible and start over again Jeanne?
Good luck~
Abe Noxious
July 23rd, 2005 at 8:50 pmI guess you haven’t been reading this board. It’s all about a conspiracy theory about Karl Rove.
Does Fitzgerald know this? How does Judy feel about going to jail over the equivalent of Area 51 and alien remains?
I hate you like I hate any fundamentalist zealot. And now… for the real rape rooms in Iraq.
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000990590
Yes, Abe. I will celebrate when you and your ideological counterpart, Osama bin Laden, are dead. But he is a helluva lot better at it than you are. He has earned my grudging respect. OBL, unlike you, is a worthy opponent. You are not the kind of enemy that does much for your opponents reputation.
July 23rd, 2005 at 9:04 pmA report prepared by the California Senate showed that abortion clinics in that state were torched and bombed more than in any other state. Other states with large numbers of attacks are: Florida with 19, Texas with 14, New York with nine.
Late October and early November has been referred to as the “killing season” by some abortion-rights advocates because of the number of attacks that have taken place during that time.
OBL thinks he’s doing God’s work, too.
Abortion Provider Violence Statistics:
7 Murders
17 Attempted Murders
41 Bombings
168 Arsons
82 Attempted Bombings/Arsons
373 Invasions
1048 Incidences of Vandalism
591 Incidences of Trespassing
125 Incidences of Assault and Battery
357 Death Threats
3 Kidnappings
76 Incidences of Burglary
Abortion Provider Disruption Statistics:
9790 Incidences of Hate Mail/Calls
578 Bomb Threats
68886 Incidences of Picketing
Abortion Provider Clinic Blockades:
686 Blockades
July 23rd, 2005 at 9:17 pm33830 Arrests
I’ll bet you’re better at “holding your own” in other situations Dwayne, you certainly don’t fair well when others are present.
As for the rape rooms in Iraq. They were real, the actions of The United States miltary made them a thing of the past and helped free a country from a savage. The people of Iraq thank us for it. The Democratic Party and Saddam view us as an evil empire for it.
You’ve got a pretty strong hate going on there Dwayne. Maybe Jeanne can help you. She was schooled for 12 years in the Catholic Church you know… maybe she can set you up with a Catholic priest who will help you get a grip on all your hard feelings.
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 9:24 pmBefore the cock crows 10 you will have betrayed me once more Abraham.
July 23rd, 2005 at 9:32 pmYou’ve got to report both sides of the statistics or you’ll sound like you’ve chosen sides.
Are there any reports on how many children have been killed inside abortion clinics?
The left is upset about how many people have been killed in the war on terrorism yet the statistics on the death of unborn babies by mothers who choose to kill them doesn’t merit a tear.
While I don’t condone the killing of abortion providers, it appears that they’ve chosen a dangerous profession to get into.
Murder has been around for years. Look at how Senator Kennedy murdered a young girl slowly by water torture 36 years ago… but don’t get upset. He’s a Democrat and a good Catholic. That makes it perfectly acceptable.
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 9:33 pmHey jesus,
You’re walking on thin water here. You’ve got a Catholic “Christian” scholar who spent 12 years learning the Bible out here.
On second thought you’re okay.
She won’t defend her religion against you, she doesn’t get it.
I just find you to be delightfully metally disturbed. It’s not all that unusual in your party. I’m sort of used to it.
Abe Noxious
July 23rd, 2005 at 9:39 pmThis one’s for you Abe. I hope the funeral wasn’t to costly for you.
Tragic.
July 23rd, 2005 at 10:04 pmhttp://editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000981095
Skid!
I haven’t heard from you since I asked you to determine what The Constitution may have meant when it guaranteed each person a freedom to practice their religion as they see fit.
I see you’ve been “boning up” on stories about bestiality. I guess it was good for you since you want to share it, but I’m not into that sort of thing.
I’m sure you’ll find a few people out here who might thank you for it though.
Tell me Skid, in the Skidism religion, do you have to be married to a sheep before you sodomize it.. or just engaged?
Who knows, you may find enough followers here to collect an offering.
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 10:14 pmAbe doesn’t seem to know much about sin, or virtue.
The Seven Deadly Sins. Oddly, murder isn’t among them.
Pride is excessive belief in one’s own abilities, that interferes with the individual’s recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity.
Envy is the desire for others’ traits, status, abilities, or situation.
Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.
Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.
Anger is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury. It is also known as Wrath.
Greed is the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual. It is also called Avarice or Covetousness.
Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.
Contrary, Heavenly, and Cardinal Virtues
In this world of iniquity, they are a few gleams of hope in the mire of our shameful indulgences. Various formulations of Virtue have been proposed over the ages.
The Cardinal Virtues:
prudence, temperance, courage, justice
Classical Greek philosophers considered the foremost virtues to be prudence, temperance, courage, and justice. Early Christian Church theologians adopted these virtues and considered them to be equally important to all people, whether they were Christian or not.
The Theological Virtues:
love, hope, faith
St. Paul defined the three chief virtues as love, which was the essential nature of God, hope, and faith. Christian Church authorities called them the three theological virtues because they believed the virtues were not natural to man in his fallen state, but were conferred at Baptism.
The Seven Contrary Virtues:
humility, kindness, abstinence, chastity, patience, liberality, diligence
The Contrary Virtues were derived from the Psychomachia (”Battle for the Soul”), an epic poem written by Prudentius (c. 410). Practicing these virtues is alledged to protect one against temptation toward the Seven Deadly Sins: humility against pride, kindness against envy, abstinence against gluttony, chastity against lust, patience against anger, liberality against greed, and diligence against sloth.
The Seven Heavenly Virtues:
faith, hope, charity, fortitude, justice, temperance, prudence
The Heavenly Virtues combine the four Cardinal Virtues: prudence, temperance, fortitude — or courage, and justice, with a variation of the theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity. I’m still researching the origins and popular usage of this formulation.
The Seven Corporal Works of Mercy
Continuing the numerological mysticism of Seven, the Christian Church assembled a list of seven good works that was included in medieval catechisms. They are: feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, give shelter to strangers, clothe the naked, visit the sick, minister to prisoners, and bury the dead.
July 23rd, 2005 at 10:46 pmGoodness! Is that liberality I see there?
July 23rd, 2005 at 10:49 pmI don’t see conservatism there. Why is that?
July 23rd, 2005 at 10:51 pmAbe…? Abe…?
July 23rd, 2005 at 11:12 pmTac said:
“Abe doesn’t seem to know much about sin, or virtue”
I know enough to recognize it without researching it on the internet.
Thou shalt have no other God’s before me… unless you’re in Politics then you have to practice a separation between church and state and all bets are off.
Abortion, which is one of the planks in the Democratic Party’s platform, is murder.
Adultery, which is regarded by the Democratic Party as a personal situation, is wrong. (This would include teaching children to abstain from premarital sex in schools)
Lying, which is okay according to the Democratic Party if it is about adultery, is wrong.
Bearing False Witness which includes speculating without proof that another is guilty of say, revealing someones identity as a “secret agent” who hasn’t been a “secret agent” for 5 years is wrong
Love your neighbor as yourself, which has been done away with if you really hate the president and you want to accuse or make fun of him.
The Bible also tells us to pray for our leaders.
What you’re missing is that The Democratic Party has no desire whatsoever for values or religion.
They want it stricken completely from all laws, discussions and matters of government. Period.
Most psuedo-Christians would agree. God has no place in our lives, values or politics once you walk outside the church door. A person’s value system have no place in their everyday life.
Abe
July 23rd, 2005 at 11:14 pmDid you read it, Abe? Remember Laura Bush’s joke about GW trying to milk a male horse?
Your horse is in the White House. Judging by that smile on your face, I think you like it.
July 23rd, 2005 at 11:17 pmSkid,
Judging by your repeated references to it I think you’re spending far too much time thinking about it.
You might want to get that checked.
Anyone who finds anything but revulsion from a sick perversion like bestality might be missing a face card.
Count your cards Skid.
July 23rd, 2005 at 11:27 pmThe Bible! LMAO! A book of fairy tales, Abe? Please! Can we use Mother Goose this week? At least the got the numbers right.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/166/story_16630_1.html
July 24th, 2005 at 12:02 amAbe thinks the Bible was written in King James’ English, too. Go to Hell, Abe. I don’t want you up here.
July 24th, 2005 at 12:04 amHey, Dwayne, what are a Cpl of? the Salvation Army? The French Foreign Legion? Certainly, you do not or have not served in the American military? If so, you are a disgrace.
July 24th, 2005 at 12:04 amNo cults in Heaven, Abe. Even the Popes didn’t make it in.
July 24th, 2005 at 12:05 amAbe is correct. Gregory created the Seven Deadly Sins in the early 16th Century. And, tac is not mentioned among them. Perhaps it is because the Catholic Church had a little thing called the Inquisition where torture and murder were the order of the day. And, for those of you who know what happened during the Catholic Inquisition, you can say that Hitler and the Nazis would be choir boys compared to what the Catholic priests did to innocents.
And, now after the boy rape scandal of the 20th and 21st centuries, it makes one wonder (1) why anyone would want to be a Catholic and (2) would admit it if they were Catholic.
We had a little incident called the Protestant Reformation do get away from such doggeral. Thank God.
July 24th, 2005 at 12:10 amGo for it Abe! You are making fools of them.
July 24th, 2005 at 12:12 amAs any Christian knows, there are no deadly sins. All of our sins are covered by faith in Jesus Christ and no sin is too big to be covered by grace.
Wrong again, dickwad, If you believe that travelling medicine show, there is one. You are a cult, like Scientology, and even the catholic church. You will be discredited and your nonsense refuted. You will be outlawed and lose your tax exempt status. It just can’t happen too soon for the rest of us.
July 24th, 2005 at 12:14 amSee, these guys even know better than the Holy Roman Empire. Loons. Lock them all up. With Tom Cruise. Put them on meds. Jeanne was 100% correct.
July 24th, 2005 at 12:18 amThey ARE the 616 in Revelations. They are the false prophets. They must be hunted down and destroyed.
July 24th, 2005 at 12:19 amWell “god” it seems like you may have been the victim of some tainted burnt offering.
Judging from your “dickwad” statement you’re as short on patience and virtue as you are on intelligence.
Be careful how you worship yourself, you could turn up a blind eye.
I think I’ve turned all the cards on the intelligence factor of your posts. You’ve obviously attempted to pull my leg. You’ll have to spend the rest of the evening pulling your own.
ta-ta
Abe
July 24th, 2005 at 12:24 amPremiere Radio Networks ( Limbaugh’s Syndicator ) says that Al Franken is beating Bill O’Reilly in the all important 25 – 54 demographic.
Host Share Avg. Quarter Hour Rank (all AM/FM
(Persons 12+) (Persons 12+) programming -
persons 12+)
Rush Limbaugh 4.1 139,100 5
Al Franken 1.8 61,400 23
Bill O’Reilly 2.1 72,700 20
Jerry Springer 1.1 37,000 26
Host Share Avg. Quarter Hour Rank (all AM/FM
(Adults 25-54) (Adults 25-54) programming -
adults 25-54)
Rush Limbaugh 2.5 50,600 17
July 24th, 2005 at 12:25 amAl Franken 1.7 34,400 20
Bill O’Reilly 1.2 23,900 23
Jerry Springer 1.0 18,600 25
So, “Dog” (I will not blaspheme God by applying His name to you), are you saying that the Grace of the New Testament is fiction? Abe is correct, the blood of Christ covers all sins for all of those who believe and confess him.
For your sake, don’t you think that it is better to believe and never find out if you were wrong (since there would be no Heaven or Hell) than to NOT believe and spending eternity knowing that yuo were wrong.
I am a Christian and I am not ashamed of it. No amount of left wing name calling will ever bother me. The Bible says that Christians will be persecuted for believing in HIM, especially in the last days. Those days are here, bubba. God pity all of you who do blaspheme.
And, even if you found out that God did not exist (which you won’t), please don’t tell me. I don’t want to know because, as a Christian, I have the best of both worlds: a fullfilling, joy-filled life on earth and the hope of an eternal happiness in heaven. It doesn’t get better than that.
There ARE worse things than being a Christian…but you are so blinded by your hatred that you cannot think logically.
July 24th, 2005 at 12:27 amCan you feel it creeping up on you? It’s the end times. There is going to be a rupture though, not a rapture. If you’ve got balls, which I doubt, buy a cup.
July 24th, 2005 at 12:28 amHATE GOD LOVE SEX HATE GOD LOVE SEX HATE LOVE SEX GOD LOVE SEX HATE GOD LOVE SEX HATE GOD LOVE SEX HATE GOD LOVE SEX HATE LOVE SEX GOD LOVE SEX HATE GOD LOVE SEX HATE GOD LOVE SEX HATE GOD LOVE SEX HATE LOVE SEX GOD LOVE SEX HATE GOD LOVE SEX HATE GOD LOVE SEX HATE GOD LOVE SEX HATE LOVE SEX GOD LOVE SEX HATE GOD LOVE SEX HATE GOD LOVE SEX HATE GOD LOVE SEX HATE LOVE SEX GOD LOVE SEX HATE GOD LOVE SEX HATE GOD LOVE SEX HATE GOD LOVE SEX HATE LOVE SEX GOD LOVE SEX HATE GOD LOVE SEX CANDY! DORK!
July 24th, 2005 at 12:30 amAs for Jeanne, her 12 years of Catholic training hasn’t prepared her to discuss the scriptures in any depth.
July 24th, 2005 at 12:31 amWe’ve determined her tuition was wasted on bribes to victims of homosexual priests and her education was limited to what she was taught to believe by an organization that made their own rules.
You don’t suppose that Franken might be ahead of O’Reilly might b e that 90% of Franken’s stations are in very liberal markets like NYC, LA, San Francisco, Seattle.
Notice, of course, that Rush is beating Franken at 2:1, evidently even in Franken’s home turf?
Have you really ever listened to “The Al Franken Show?” Or better yet, have you ever watched it on the Sundance Channel? It is the most hideous show on any airwave. And that obnoxious, cackling woman (she is so memorable I cannot recall her name) who is his sidekick. I haven’t been so bored since Kukla and Ollie. They are soooooooobad. I watch them sometimes just because I like to see what the best the Liberals have to offer. Sad, but funny.
I don’t think O’Reilly or Limbaugh have a thing to worry about from Franken or his ilk. In his own way, Rush Limbaugh created the modern talk radio program. He has been going for years. Franken won’t last long. The only thing that could be worse (and more sad, but funny) is if Al Gore got his network going. Could you imagine….brrrrrr…
July 24th, 2005 at 12:38 amMike,
I believe they’ve run out of intelligent arguments.
I guess we can call up for our check now since we’re being paid by the RNC as disrupters.
I got a buck five sixty for my work, how much did you get?
Since we’re rich, we don’t have to pay any taxes on this money.
Cool huh?
Abe
July 24th, 2005 at 12:38 amI agree Abe, since Laura Bush made that joke about her husband and our President trying to milk a male horse, it seems like now there’s a horendous, newly-awakened curiosity among the younger generation, the children if you will, that would not have thought of this if not for that blasphemous comment of her responsability.
Does Laura realise the repercussions of such acts, let alone such comments in gaiety about such acts?
July 24th, 2005 at 12:42 amAnd what about the children, Abe?
What about the children?
Verily, I say unto thee. Thou shalt be persecuted, hunted down and flung back into the dark pit of ignorance and hate from whence thou came. Then we party.
July 24th, 2005 at 12:43 amYou can’t really blame it on George. Laura probably learned that trick from Katherine the Great. Why do you think they call her Katherine the Great? Well, I suppose you can blame it on George, and Katherine’s human lovers, too. None of them were that “Great”.
July 24th, 2005 at 12:46 amMike,
Air America was unable to get the audience needed to find any real sponsors. They folded up their tent in Chicago for lack of a sponsor or audience.
Howard Dean, Senator Durbin and their ilk are chasing people away from their party.
I love it when they speak, they do more harm then good.
I work with a bunch of Liberal Democrats who are furious with Durbin for his remarks. His chances of retaining his seat in 08 are diminishing. Once his comments ended up on the terrorist’s radio station he sealed his fate.
If one soldier is captured or tortured and his remarks are mentioned, he can pretty much pack his political bags.
Abe
July 24th, 2005 at 12:48 amAbe,
I can Karl now and tell him that we have done our best. I think he would be proud of us.
I am so glad that I have a kindred spirit on this board. You are eloquent, intelligent, and you stay so cool in the face of all of their hatred. That’s how I can tell you are a conservative!
Keep on keepin’ on.
Oh, by the way, at the moment I am not from a southern state. I am actually from the Rocky Mountain West. In fact, believe it or not, Dick and Lynn Cheney and I went to the same high school in Casper, Wyoming. They were a few years ahead of me, but some of my sisters and brothers were in their class. Also, I taught at the same college that Dick and Lynn attended. I think he will go down as one of the great VPs.
BUT, I saw the light and turned from my liberal ways and became a conservative long before the Cheneys or Bushes came into view.
I know this is more information than you probably want to know.
Thanks!
Mike
July 24th, 2005 at 12:48 amGet a room, you two.
July 24th, 2005 at 12:51 amSkid…. can I call you Mark?
You really enjoy discussing the idea of sex with animals.
I’m afraid Laura’s remark has made a profound impression on you.
Be very careful or you may end up with a horseshoe impression on your forehead during foreplay.
I’m guessing you to be about 14. If I’m wrong you’re a little to young to be up this late.
Abe
July 24th, 2005 at 12:56 amSkid,
Since when do you and your ilk care about the children? Millions have been tossed into the garbage cans of abortion clinics and you remain mute and become outraged when we try to speak for the children. What about the children Skid, what about the children?
Somewhere earlier one of you posted a message that said it is not about abortion, it is about a woman’s right to choose what to do with her body. When, in the heat of passion, that little ol’ sperm finds her little ol’ egg, she has made her decision. She has the right to say, “no, not tonight, I have a headache,” or “Do you have a condom,” etc. What right does anyone have to determine the life or death of an innocent child who cannot defend itself? And, don’t come to me with this incest/rape/mother’s health argument. Less than 1% of the pregnacies involve any of these. If it can be proven that one of these occur, then it is something to talk about. But, because Wanda June has a one-night-stand in Motel 6 and is too stupid to say no or to demand protection, children should not suffer.
What about the children, Skid? What about the children?
July 24th, 2005 at 12:57 amGet a room, you two.
Comment by Skid  July 24, 2005 @ 12:51 am
I think they may be hiding in the rectumry.
July 24th, 2005 at 12:59 amAAR returns to the Chicago market
http://radio.about.com/od/airamericaradio/a/aa050605a.htm
July 24th, 2005 at 1:00 amI think he will go down as one of the great VPs.
You got that right. He’s definitely going down.
July 24th, 2005 at 1:03 amMike,
I’m going to let you continue the good fight.
I’ll stop by tomorrow.
Abe
July 24th, 2005 at 1:03 amHA! HA! HA! HA!
Air Amerika is returning all right, but not to Chicago but to Crystal Lake which is 50 miles north of Chicago. the station is on 2500 watts which means it will cover about 20 miles, not enough to be heard even close to Chicago. And, Air Amerika will air only daytime, which means they will be lucky if they carry 6 blocks.
You call this a “Reurn to Chicago?”
Ha! Ha! How embarassing.
July 24th, 2005 at 1:08 amgod said: AAR returns to the Chicago market
The station has 2500 watts. There are gang bangers with more watts than that in their car stereo amps.
When all you can find is a 2500 watt station in Chicago, you’d reach more people with a megaphone in a subway station at 5:00 am. They’d give new meaning to the term “Democratic Platform”
July 24th, 2005 at 1:10 amActually, they are doing Chicago a favor…not to have to listen to the lisping, limp wristed, lying, lecherous Franken.
What’s the name of his hideous side-kick? You know, the cackling woman with buck teeth so bas she could eat peanuts out the bottom of a soda bottle. Oh, what is her name???
July 24th, 2005 at 1:13 amCould it be that the goonies have all gone to bed? Even “god?” Whoah!
July 24th, 2005 at 1:15 amGropenführer has some problems, doesn’t he?
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/07/24/GUV.TMP
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, who has relished the role of the fearless “Terminator” armed for battle against an army of special interests, is suddenly looking more like Gulliver — besieged, tied down, and overrun by his opponents.
And no wonder: After months of campaigning, fund raising and warning of a Nov. 8 special election he insisted was “guaranteed,” the governor’s team blinked this week. Campaign adviser Mike Murphy floated a trial balloon — most likely to gauge Democratic Party as much as voter reaction — with Friday’s public acknowledgement that Team Schwarzenegger has discussed the impossible: dumping the much-heralded special ballot altogether.
Rob Stutzman, communications director to the governor, insisted in a Saturday e-mail that the notion of pulling the special election is “not a serious consideration.”
In areas like redistricting of legislative lines, and budget, he said firmly, “the governor is committed to fixing a broken system and will continue to fight for those reforms.”
But the official line from the governor’s office hasn’t diminished speculation over the possible effect on Schwarzenegger if the election is a no-go.
“How do you declare victory in defeat?” is the first challenge the governor faces, said Bill Whalen, a Hoover Institution research fellow who has acted as an adviser to Schwarzenegger.
“What the Democrats have done here undeniably has been very effective,” said Whalen. “They have attacked Schwarzenegger’s policies; they have attacked his character, his ethics, his trustworthiness, and it has driven down his poll numbers.”
The question now for Democrats: “Is it smart politics to try to rub his face in the dirt? There’s a risk for them in going too far … and overplaying the hand.”
But veteran Democratic strategist Garry South said there’s hardly an outpouring of pity for the GOP action-hero-turned-governor with this latest development. “He’s gotten himself into this pickle,” he said. “This was all about testosterone, and we’ll have to see whether his glands outduel his brain on how to get out of this mess.”
Democratic consultant Gale Kaufman also seemed to be enjoying the governor’s predicament. Strategy is limited, she said, when you’re hanging on the side of a cliff.
“They are in free fall here,” she said of the governor’s team. “They don’t have any good choices.”
July 24th, 2005 at 1:15 amTerminated!
July 24th, 2005 at 1:16 amIf you are God, “god,” why did Kerry lose? Limited powers, eh?
July 24th, 2005 at 1:19 amInteresting question.
Perhaps he thought that Bush had already been burned?
Abe
July 24th, 2005 at 1:22 amAbe, the scriptures are not the law of the land. Period.
And your sick twisted behaviour here doesn’t really reflect well on your religion, nor your God.
Presuming that you actually are anything like what you present here, which is an open question.
What Church do you attend, anyway?
Oh, and Karl Rove, Scooter Libby, and George Bush know they did wrong. Otherwise why would they have hidden behind journalist for two years instead of coming clean immediately?
Remember, it’s the coverup that got the Nixon Administration in the end.
July 24th, 2005 at 1:28 amBoasicea asked: What Church do you attend, anyway?
A Christian Church that believes abortion and homosexuality are sins and that we are to incorporate our morals, values and Christianity in all aspects of our life.
It’s a Christ centered church that studies the Bible, sings praises, feeds and ministers to the lost and believes in forgiveness of sins through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.
We also teach, as the Bible does, that we should be transformed to the renewing of hearts rather than to be conformed to the secular practices of this world.
We pray, take communion, sing hymns, and meet weekly.
We also acknowledge that President Bush is our leader and that he is also a follower of Christ.
We understand that his opposition is for a woman’s right to choose to kill her child, removing God from our country and the absence of morals.
It’s your basic Christian Church.
Wasn’t it a coverup that caused Clinton’s impeachment?
Where were you on that issue? Outraged or running interference?
Abe
July 24th, 2005 at 1:45 amAbe,
Jesus would probably think that abortion isn’t the best of ideas to decide on, but Jesus definately would allow a human the choice between aborting or not aborting, vis a via the choice between a good and a choice between a evil, since when would God begrudge a man his freewill? In this case its a women’s choice. Though a women raped by her father, a women aborting a bastard child wouldn’t necessarily be as evil as a women aborting child for convenience and luxury. To take a absolutist position on abortion is to fall victim to a blind tyranny, a blind tyranny that allows children concieved of incest and criminal rapists to be protected and allowed life. What kind of message is this abortion absolutism sending to sexual criminals, go ahead and spread your degenerate seed, afterall Christian Fundamentalist will allow you to reproduce no matter how degenerate you are, how’s that for family values and protecting the sanctity of the family. Now surely Jesus Christ, wouldn’t want the proliferation of such evil. Jesus Christ being God’s son wouldn’t think so simply black and white about the world, God’s world allows freewill, choices such as abortion aren’t always clear cut cases of heretical instances but more so they can be means to greater ends, surely God’s world isn’t so simple as fundamentalist would falsely proclaim it to be, if it were how would good come from so many acts that fundamentalist proclaim to be evil. We are creatures created by God and bestowed with free will. By attempting to legislate morality – you are trying to do the impossible – force a sinner to be good. This my dear Abe is abhorent to the Lord.
As for gay marriage. Please explain how that has any ill effect on the sanctity of marriage. I am confused – why is it any of your business of Ted marries Ed instead of Sue?
Who made you judge? If you find homosexuality repulsive, hey don’t do it.
As for all your other questions I will repeat something worth repeating – maybe it will finally dawn on you.
What part of s e p e r a t i o n of church and………
……………………………………………..
…….
State
do you not understand?
July 24th, 2005 at 1:45 amGot to get up for church tomorrow
Nite all
Abe
July 24th, 2005 at 1:47 amAbortionRocks said: “but Jesus definately would allow a human the choice between aborting or not aborting”
That’s as far as I read. Your name and that single comment tell me you have no clue about Christ nor do you currently care to find out.
God says that murder is wrong. not killing, murder.
when you decide to kill an unborn child because you choose not to have it, for any reason, you are murderering your child.
Is there forgiveness? Certainly.
God doesn’t stop us from doing anything. We have free will.
We do many things that are not His will that have consequences. Sex out of marriage is one example.
When we decide to have sex out of marriage and a child is produced from that union, the child is the consequence for that action.
The child has done nothing wrong.
Same thing with rape. The child is not responsible.
How many women have children from men they end up hating and divorcing or leaving? Do they kill any children that may have come as a result of that union?
The child is innocent.
Would you also assume that Christ would allow you to murder someone who would be a lone witness against you for a crime you’ve committed in order to erase any consequence that might come from your actions?
You view God with a secular vision. His ways are not our ways. His word is law despite how inappropiate it might seem under the current set of circumstances.
You’re missing that. Until and unless you understand that, you will never understand God or His will for you.
Abe
July 24th, 2005 at 2:03 amGive Mike a kiss goodnight.
Go to bed, Abu Abe.
July 24th, 2005 at 2:34 amAbe,
The moniker I used was to get your goat. You have such a woody for abortion -that is why you are so easily manipulated by Rove and his ilk.
The child that lost both arms in Iraq due to a Bush missle is innocent too. So are the other estimated 24-100K Iraqi civilians. Where is your compassion for them? You care more about a fetus – than these poor children. Is it because they are brown?
Killing and murder are abhorent to the Lord – can we agree on that? But you are selective – therefore you are rigid in one way – yet inconsistent in another.
The Republican goal is to starve all social services, I am no rocket scientist – but clearly there will be a great need for all you good christians to adopt all the brown, black, white and mixed babies that would result if roeVwade is reversed.
Also can you imagine what a basketcase a kid would be to call his daddy his grandpa and be correct? Or a child conceived of rape – fatherless and with a mother that would be ambivelent at best – abusive at worse. Yeah thats Christian values.
I believe that the giant turtle is the supreme being on earth. It should be protected and worshipped accordingly. I also think that my religion should be taught in school so that all the children can be good little turtle worshippers and when they die – they will swim with the Big Turtle.
The point of my turtle story – is that your dogma is your dogman – quit trying to stuff it down everyones throat.
Like a said before – if the idea of gay sex is repulsive
to you – the quit doing it. If you do not believe in abortion – then by all means don’t abort. If you have a little girl and one day some miscreant empregnates her – and because of your beliefs – that kid is brought to term. And the father carries a defective gene, and the kid is born autistic. And it becomes a emotional and finanacial burden on you. And social services are non existance because the Republicans have obtained their wet dream. Then maybe you’ll understand? Sometimes shit happens.
I will not insult your religiosity, but somehow you have to understand that there are people do share your belief and that is ok – that is what this country is all about. Where the hell did you fascist come from anyway?
- jason
July 24th, 2005 at 2:51 amA Christian Church that believes abortion and homosexuality are sins and that we are to incorporate our morals, values and Christianity in all aspects of our life.
Don’t have an abortion and stop screwing around with Mike. Your church and your life. Stay the fvck out of other people’s churches and lives and we got no problem.
July 24th, 2005 at 4:33 amJason and J,
Seems you two are the ones hung up on gay sex. It is all you can talk about. Hmmmmmm…..I wonder.
Never mind.
July 24th, 2005 at 5:05 amIt’s important to remember that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. It’s the youngest of the three major monotheisms stemming from the ancient Hebrew teachings. The surge in the popularity of these superstitions is linked to “apocalyptic millenarianism”. This should subside as we proceed through this millenium. Wiki has a good entry on this subject. We are going through a less severe Dark Ages, and should have a new age of reason and enlightenment soon. I wouldn’t let either of these two, Mike and Abe, anywhere near my children, or any children, if it were up to me, but it’s not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamofascist
Fascism as a social movement
To understand how religion and fascism can merge, it is important to see the difference between fascism in state power and fascism as a social movement prior to obtaining state power.
“Fascism is an especially virulent form of extreme right populism. Fascism glorifies national, racial, or cultural unity and collective rebirth while seeking to purge imagined enemies. It attacks both revolutionary movements and liberal pluralism in favor of militarized, totalitarian mass politics. Fascism first crystallized in Europe in response to the Bolshevik Revolution and the devastation of World War I, and then spread to other parts of the world. Between the two world wars, there were three forms of fascism: Italian economic corporatism; German racial nationalist Nazism; and clerical fascist movements such as the Romanian Iron Guard and the Croatian Ustashi. Since WWII, neofascists have reinterpreted fascist ideology and strategy in various ways to fit new circumstances.” “Terms & Concepts.”
Scholar Roger Griffin, argues that “fascism is best defined as a revolutionary form of nationalism, one that sets out to be a political, social and ethical revolution, welding the ‘people’ into a dynamic national community under new elites infused with heroic values. The core myth that inspires this project is that only a populist, trans-class movement of purifying, cathartic national rebirth (palingenesis) can stem the tide of decadence” (Griffin, Nature of Fascism, p. xi).
This concept of fascism as “palingenesis” is complementary with the idea of James Rhodes that fascism is a form of apocalyptic millenarianism; and with the work of Emilio Gentile where fascism is seen as a form of “political religion.”
Roger Eatwell has also looked at this issue:
“Religions…involve some form of belief in a supernatural being(s). However, this misses a point that all modern ideologies exhibit dimensions of religions. Even ‘rationalist’ ideologies like liberalism have an affective side to their appeal, especially if studied in concrete political situations rather than through the dry texts of their great thinkers. Compare the pomp and circumstance surrounding the contemporary US Presidency with the restrained rationalism of James Madison’s eighteenth century writings on the emerging US Constitution. Or consider the question why do many liberals seem to need to be at war, metaphorically at least, with those who do not share their views? – a question which points to interesting conclusions about much of liberal historiography’s demonization of fascism as an un-intellectual creed!
A more fruitful way of distinguishing between ideology and religion is to adapt Soren Kiekegaard’s view that the essence of a religion is not the persuasion of the truth of the doctrine, but a leap of faith to accept a view which is inherently absurd. What could be more absurd than to believe that God allowed his only son to be born of a virgin in a lowly stable in Bethlehem over 2000 years ago? Christianity is a religion because of this core absurdity – this need for a leap of faith. Fascism’s essential syncretism meant that it was possible to find forms which overtly married ideology and religion – for example, in the Iron Guard, or among a limited number of Italian and German clerics (though most failed to see the radicalism at the core of fascism). Moreover, there were aspects of fascism which were absurd – especially the belief of some Nazis that there was an international Jewish conspiracy against Germany, which encouraged a belief in apocalyptic holy war against the Jew. However, most fascists were not driven by such affective sentiments. Indeed, there is nothing absurd about the core ideology of generic fascism – namely the quest to forge a holistic nation and create a radical syncretic Third Way state.” “Reflections on Fascism and Religion”.
July 24th, 2005 at 5:19 amAnd these yahoos will not understand that in the above case, they are the “liberals” Eatwell is speaking of.
July 24th, 2005 at 5:25 amJason and J,
Seems you two are the ones hung up on gay sex. It is all you can talk about. Hmmmmmm…..I wonder.
Never mind.
Comment by Mike  July 24, 2005 @ 5:05 am
There is a reason you don’t get many converts here. Can you figure out what it is? Neither do the Moonies anymore. You will lose more than you ever convert in the very near future. It’s the info age, small world, faster pace… If it wasn’t for the millenium and 9/11, you would have barely made a dent.
July 24th, 2005 at 5:39 amWow, this crap continues!
Abe, I never claimed to be a Catholic scholar, just that I attended Catholic schools, where basically we studied all the normal curriculum and graduated as AP scholars with 1300-1500 SATS. It wasn’t actually religious indoctrination and strangely enough, many of the students there weren’t Catholic or even Christian. It wasn’t required.
I’ve never stated anything about my current religious affiliation as an adult and won’t. Believe it or not, it’s none of your business.
You and Mike are glorious examples of the religious extremism that brought the criminal Bush into office. Your complicity in his election has given us a war based on lies, increases in poverty, massive wealth redistribution to the wealthiest among us, etc.
I am glad to have read your hatefilled rants and have even printed a few out. I’m going to show them to my mother and her many Catholic friends who voted for Bush, purely on the abortion issue, despite loathing him. They will be most interested to know what the fundy creeps who truly support Bush are thinking of them. That they despise and mock Catholicism. I think this information will be very useful in upcoming elections to let Catholics know how vital it is that they never again ally themselves with the twisted cults of violence and bigotry that make up the Christian Right.
As for priests buggering boys, I suggest you look a little deeper into your congregation and likely into your own home. Perversions, incest, sexual violence, hypocrisy and even barnyard sex is not at all foreign to the kind of knuckledragging freaks that appear to make up the mainstream of your bastardized ‘Christian” cults. In fact, it’s likely that their tendencies towards perversion are what drive them to punish themselves in your phony cults.
July 24th, 2005 at 7:14 amBoadicea said: “Your morality is not the law of the land, however, and private choices are still up to American citizens to make for themselves. You do not keep anyone’s conscience but your own.”
When a country begins to lose its morality everyone suffers.
Imagine trying to teach values to a child who is surrounded by people with no values.
The reason 25 million children have been aborted in this country since Roe vs Wade is because people were given the opportunity to kill their children if they didn’t want them.
You said: And Karl Rove will still be frog marched out of the White House in handcuffs.
You’ve got a Democratic Senator Ted Kennedy who was responsible for the death of a woman and didn’t get help for 10 hours and you have no outrage. Yet you believe Karl Rove revealed the identity of a woman who had been undercover 6 years prior and you demand his arrest.
That’s what happens when you start to lose your morality.
You went on: “Your vehement focus on what other people may be doing behind the closed doors of their bedrooms suggests an unholy fascination with another body part altogether.”
Again it comes down to values. When anything is acceptable in a society the morals begin to slide down hill.
You asked: “If you had a Jewish President, would you also acknowledge him/her as your leader as part of your service? Or is that reserved strictly for Christian (non Catholic) Presidents?”
If we had a Jewish President we would expect him to lead our country with the respect, values and morals that would help us to prosper.
You went on: I guess you’re praying extra hard for Laura Bush then, eh?
She doesn’t make the laws nor is she in a position to
You said:
So, that responsibility for children ends at the borders of the US, then? We’re not to worry about Iraqi children or Afghani women?
We took out a dictator who killed thousands of his own people. War is Hell. If this country had chosen not to fight any wars we wouldn’t exist today.
And finally you said: “I was wishing my government was focusing on something other than whether a man had lied about getting a blowjob.
But even then, the dress was stained with semen, not with blood. I ardently wish our current occupant of the Oval Office could say the same.”
So then your morals depend, not on the crime, but on who committed it.
Senator Kennedy’s situation led to the death of a woman, no foul?
This is what I mean by morals and values.
July 24th, 2005 at 8:32 amAbe, why aren’t you in church? Don’t the conspicously pious, the ones whose religious absolutism is so overpowering they need to spew it on everyone they meet…Don’t they spend the whole of Sunday in prayer and contemplation? …. Oh, no, what a surprise that you are still sniffing around here, trying to find someone to insult, someone to whom you can preach your own superiority to.
I just wanted to thank you again Abe. You’ve opened my eyes to a wonderful recruiting tool for Democrats – the actual words of Bush freaks like yourself. You have done more than I ever could to explain to people what is wrong with the Republican party,.and why our country is in its current state of disintegration. They made a deal with the devil by coddling you freaks, knowing that they could never win on their true agenda of stealing from the poor to reward the wealthy. They used you as cover to provide some kind of fake veneer of morality to their thievery. Now they are stuck with a bunch of paranoid lunatics and obsessives that everyone outside of the Southern and Midwestern states regard with horror.
so thanks for identifying the task. It is really quite simple now to pass on to intelligent people of faith the knowledge that Bush’s “base” is merely the modern equivalent of racist thugs and moral swine that have afflicted your parts of the country for centuries. Your own words are much more useful than anything I could have described with mine.
July 24th, 2005 at 10:21 amAbe,
Can you answer some questions – even when they are
incovenient?
What Kennedy/did did/not do so many years ago has no
relevency today. Because Kennedy may have done a bad
so many years ago – we give Rove a pass? Your mental
gymnastics to establish hypocracy exposes your own.
Is Rove going to have to f**k a goat on TV before you
see how evil the sob is?
It is now established fact that Plame
was in still covert. It is established fact that
she setup front companies and in being exposed; countless
number of people have their life litteraly in jeopardy.
Do you only watch FAUX news and listen to the racist
hatefilled Limbaugh? No wonder you are so uninformed.
Did you bother to watch Waxman’s hearing with other
CIA employees so you could understand why Rove is
a traitor? Did you cover your ears and say LALALALALA!
Either you are misinformed or for a so called Christian
you lie when convenient.
When abortionRocks mentions so many Iraqi casualties
– you and your coIdiot Mike fail to address it. You
mention that Saddam was such a monster – agreed but you
fail to mention that he was OUR monster. That when he
did the most killing – he was OUR ally. That we gave him
the tools to do it. Inconvenient but true. The prez of
Ubekiztan is a monter too – just killed hundreds of
civilians. He is our ally now, except because of internationl pressure – Bush administration gave him a mild rebuke and now he wants our bases out of his country.
So Abe/Mike WHY DID WE DESTROY A COUNTRY, KILL SO MANY WOMAN AND CHILDREN, STEAL THEIR MONEY, WASTED AMERICAN LIVES AND TREASURE? Can you answer that inconvenient question?
No wait I will answer for your dimwits:
Because Saddam was a source of terror. That is BS, unless
the terror of which you speak is to Israel. This is bad
but why are American kids dying for Isreal?
Because Saddam has WEAPONS of MASS DESTRUCTION. pleeeasse.
So disproven.
So we can fight them there so we do not have to fight
them here.
Yeah lets create more terrorist- and bomb
the shit out of them in someone elses home. Very Christian.
The bombings in England show the utter idiocy of this
sound bite. It is not if but when, and they will hit us
when they feel like it. Because for all the loss of our
civil liberties – Bush has done nothing to protect this
nation. Ports are wide open. Luggage goes in the belly
of a plane without scanning. Nulear/chemical and water
fascilities remain soft targets. But the rich have their
tax cut.
Did I miss a Faux talking point?
Since you seem to be so obsessed with abortion, what do
you propose to do when these unwanted children arrive?
Are you adopting? Pushing the GOP to be more friendly
towards social spending? Or once they are born – who
gives a damn – as long as they are not aborted. Idiots
like you probably also oppose stem cell research.
What were you and Mike belly aching about during the
Shiavo controversy? Did the reality that she was not abused, that her brain was 1/2 it’s size, that it was determined that she was as Michael said a vegtable make
an impact with you closed minded cultist?
And last but not least. The truly homophobe are closeted
faggots. Just like Mehlman, Rove (2 failed marriages, some
Christian), McClellan and other hypocrites in dear leaders
adminstration. Maybe you and Mike get turned on by the
idea of gay sex – so because of religious guilt you lash out. I wonder.. hmmm…
– sDude
July 24th, 2005 at 12:32 pmAbortion and slavery. This time the Civil war will be fought over slavery again. The same side that was in favor of slavery before will lose again. I will not be a slave to Abe’s idea of morality, virtue and values. Get ready for another ass whuppin, Abe.
July 24th, 2005 at 12:39 pmsDude,
Maybe you forget that this is a war on terror. If you believe that Saddam Hussein did not harbor terrorists and was not a terrorist himself, then you head is in the sand. We are going to have to fight terrorist all over the world. Do you think that if had left Saddam Hussein alone that he would never gotten WMDs. Even if he did not have WMDs (and I think he did — he used them before), it was only a matter of time before he did have them. Would you rather deal with him now or wait until he had nukes?
You can discount the idea of better to fight them there than here philosophy — if nothing else, we are keeeping them busy in Iraq and helping them delplet their resources so, if nothing else, they have to be weakening.
On abortion: You said, “Since you seem to be so obsessed with abortion, what do you propose to do when these unwanted children arrive? Are you adopting?”
>Good logic, sDude. So, Democrat talking points. We don’t know what to do with the unwanted bastards, so lets kill them. Just so you know, we do have an adopted son. His mother was an unwed preganant teenager. I can’t imagine him as a blood fetus in a garbage can. How about teaching the slum whores to either say “no” or to just keep their damn legs closed. There is no excuse in this day and age for any unwanted pregnancies. It is either laziness, ignorance, or opportunism (the more kids, the larger the welfare check).
So, yes, save the children and adopt them out. Have you checked out how difficult it is to adopt a child these days? Just the paperwork is enough to daunt anyone. And, the wait time for adoption is incredibly long. If we made the process a little more friendly, many more children would be adopted.
No, sDude, it is you and your ilk that have destroyed our country. You have underminded the moral values, you have thrown Christ out of Christmas and God out of everything else. When women can choose to murder their babies, when criminals have more rights than victims (thanks to ACLU), when terrorists are defended and Americans are derided, when libs can openly advocate the assasination of a sitting president — these are the things that make mainstream Americans angry and anti-liberal. Do you really believe that all of the 53,000,000 or so who voted for Bush were all religious fanatics? No, bush won mosre because your side chose John Francois Kerry, a poster boy for the left as your candidate.
I suppose you are also in favor of the recent Supreme Court decision on property rights? Look at the vote. Four conservative justices against, four justices for, and O’Connor the deciding vote. I can only hope that it is your property that some corportation decides it needs for its new mall.
You liberals really do make me sick.
July 24th, 2005 at 1:07 pmnunya,
You said, “I will not be a slave to Abe’s idea of morality, virtue and values.”
I am sure you won’t. It would mean you would have to stand up and be for something.
Honey, you are already a slave and you just don’t know it. You are a slave to the American governement, the one that the liberals have created. Spank one of your kids and find out who owns your children; refuse to pay taxes and see how long before they come to take you away.
It is the liberals who have allowed the government to intrude into every facet our lives. If you do not see this, you are sadly blinded by liberal idealogy.
July 24th, 2005 at 1:13 pmWho’s blinded?
Wow Mike, that’s the most ignorant thing I’ve seen this morning. Where do you get this stuff anyway?
July 24th, 2005 at 1:17 pmSkid,
That’s what I mean. You are so blinded by liberal idealogy and by your hatred of George Bush, you do not think logically or clearly.
The hatred must be unbearable.
I actually feel sorry for the libs.
July 24th, 2005 at 1:44 pmMike,
You are a LIAR. You have NO PROOF because it is a lie that Saddam supported ANY other terrorist activity other than the 25K he gave to the suicide bombers. With the no fly Zone and sanctions that were costing the US 1-2 billion a year that alone would have kept him in check. FAR-FAR cheaper than the 400 billion and counting we are flushing into Halliburtons coffers now. No WMD. Nothing you say will change that fact.
You missed the point about fighting them over there you moron.
It would be like if I had a beef with your neighbor across the street. But I come over your place, slap the shit out of your wife, rape your daughter and pound the shit out of you while looking for my enemey in your house.
The number of new recruits your deal leader has provided to
OBL – number in the hundreds of thousands. Iraq is a training ground for them, that is all. Fighting them over there so we do not have to fight them over here is a quaint sound bite for morons like you. Like “they hate us for our freedom”
Adoption difficult? What has that got to do with it? Unfortunately a reversal of roe versus wade – could mean millions of unwanted births. How many white couples will be lining up to adopt brown or black babies? With the ongoing distruction of the middle class – how many minorities will be struggling just to make a living let alone even contemplate adoption.
One more thing a-hole, NOBODY wants abortions. Most rational human beings at some level find it abhorrent. Especially to callosly use it as a form of birth control. I am not far left as you are far right. If the child is concieved by rape or incest – or the mothers life is in danger – what possible good for society to bring in such a life? Innocent? Perhaps but so was the raped/molested victim. That is what does not make sense to me at all. As fo birth control – damn right that is clearly wrong. And because of this education both secular and faith based should be the focus to reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies. Did you know that when Clinton was in office the teen pregnancy rate is half of what it is now? A study concluded it was because of the emphasis on birth control. Your solution has failed miserably and has resulted in far more abortions than otherwise would have been the case. The biggest rise in unplanned pregnancies occured in the south. White girls.
Imagine that.
Other posts have pointed out wide spread voter suppresion and intimidation. The implausibility of exit polls being so wrong. Convenient to ignore. People voted believing stuff that simply had no basis in reality – such as the Iraq/911 connection, SwiftBoat smear, WMD..
The ALCU has defended Jerry Falwell and even fat ass Rush Limbaugh. They are about civil liberties and protecting the constitution. Are you telling me that it is ok to possibly execute an innocent man – just so long as Bush declares him a terrorist? And you wonder why people call you Fascist?
Kerry also lost because Kerry did not appeal to a lot of people. That’s fair but it was a little of all these factors not because W is so great. Look at his approvals numbers now.
No I am not in favor of Supreme Court property rights. The difference between liberals and conservatives is that we do not goose step in unision with the ideology of the moment.
That is a terrible decision – what is your point?
People like Mike and Al sadden me, and in way yes make me
sick.
sDude
July 24th, 2005 at 1:46 pmYou liberals really do make me sick.
Golly! I hope it’s not fatal!
July 24th, 2005 at 1:53 pmWhen you remove morality you remove honesty, integrity, responsibility and honor.
If members of a community believe that each person is responsible for their own behavior and no one should interfere with anothers choosen activities, we remove our own freedom.
Christ said to love one another as we love ourselves.
You can’t follow His directive if you accept killing children through abortion. You can’t love others by explaining that lying is acceptable if it’s about adultery.
You can’t repect authority when members of leadership have committed murder and it is ignored.
You can’t teach children that God’s word is hate speech or they aren’t allowed to bless their meals.
You can’t love God when you begin to view behavior that is an abomination to him as acceptable.
The Democratic Party is interested only in abtaining power.
For eight years we had a leader who did nothing about terrorist activity in our country.
Osama said that he saw Clinton’s reaction and declared that our country was a paper tiger.
The situation in Iraq was the result of 11 years of ignored sanctions. Every major face in the Democratic Party spoke of the WMD that Saddam had.
It wasn’t until Bush decided to show our strength that they backed down. The liberal press talked of the thousands of our soldiers who would be killed in the streets in the first week of battle.
They warned that Saddam’s WMD would be used against our boys.
They cowered and shook before our enemies.
When we were victorious within three weeks, they spoke of the trouble to come.
They told our enemies that we weren’t up to the fight.
This is the mindset of the current Democratic Party. we can’t win, it’s no use, give up.
The only time they stand up is to tear up oyr Constitution and call it a living document that has to be updated as morality sinks lower.
Clinton ignored terror against our country for 8 years. Our enemies thought we were weak and now hate Bush for standing up to them. Ironically, so does the Democratic Party.
That’s why they keep losing. They have no faith in America, in our strengths, in our nation and in our God.
Reject God and He’ll let you.
He’ll let you live in fear, he’ll confound your best laid plans and he’ll let your enemies defeat you.
Trust God and the battle is won.
Pick a side. Just don’t let Ted Kennedy drive the float you’re in at your surrender parade.
Abe
July 24th, 2005 at 1:54 pmSorry Mike, but Abe just stole the title of “Most Ignorant Comment of the Day” from you.
Cite some sources Abe. Give us some facts. Your word alone proves nothing save your misconceptions.
July 24th, 2005 at 2:02 pmI used to be upset about what happened to Randy Weaver and his family at Ruby Ridge, and what happened at Waco, and to a certain extent. I still am. I know our criminal justice system has gone awry in many areas. But when I listen to these lunatics, like Abe and Mike, and I realize they are just the seeds of other little Timothy McVeighs, I begin to wonder if it may just be the way it has to be.
July 24th, 2005 at 2:03 pmOne of them admitted to teaching at some local college in Wyoming, too. Scary. They both should be in hospitals, or prison.
July 24th, 2005 at 2:07 pmIs it faith in America or is it in God? Don’t confuse to two ideologies. America states seperation of church and state, so which is it? Render unto Ceasar, Abe.
July 24th, 2005 at 2:07 pmrefuse to pay taxes and see how long before they come to take you away.
The rich don’t pay taxes you jack ass! No one takes them away! Except their own privately piloted jets to Aruba! Where not a enough of them go missing!
July 24th, 2005 at 2:10 pmIn their delusional minds, they are Daniel, and this is a den of lions. Sad.
July 24th, 2005 at 2:11 pmHow old is the earth, Mike? Abe?
July 24th, 2005 at 2:12 pmAbe and Mike remind me of potential Eric Rudolphs-in-waiting, with a touch of “Son of Sam”.
Is that God’s will?
July 24th, 2005 at 2:13 pmHey! Look! It’s a missing… uh, nevermind.
http://kyw1060.com/news_story_detail.cfm?newsitemid=48018
July 24th, 2005 at 2:15 pmHow many brown skinned folks in yer congregation there, Pustor?
July 24th, 2005 at 2:16 pmAnswer: It’s hard to tell under the sheet.
July 24th, 2005 at 2:17 pmThey been run off. Too much sunday morning fervor, fire and brimstone. The “real them” showed through.
July 24th, 2005 at 2:18 pmsDude,
You said, “You missed the point about fighting them over there you moron.
It would be like if I had a beef with your neighbor across the street. But I come over your place, slap the shit out of your wife, rape your daughter and pound the shit out of you while looking for my enemey in your house.”
Hmmmm….you would rather him come to your house and slap the s**t out of your wife, rape your daughter, and pound the s**t our of you? And, then Saddam Hussein could give him $25,000 for his heroism. Hey, maybe we could scream about his civil rights while he is doing all of this. And, Gop forbid they put some underwear on his head and take photos of him! Those mudering, raping, pillaging, bastardly American soldiers! And you wonder why 80% of the military votes Rebublican. The other 20% (most of them recruits from the ghettos) don’t vote. Perhaps that is why the Democrats have tried to suppress the military vote so often.
I really believe in being on the offensive rather than the defensive. It keeps the enemy busy. I would much rather hear about what is going on in Iraq than seeing it live in New York or Los Angeles (no such luck).
July 24th, 2005 at 2:20 pmI really believe in being offensive
You’ve succeeded. Now go away.
July 24th, 2005 at 2:21 pm>When a country begins to lose its morality everyone suffers.
I didn’t say no morality, but your morality.
>The reason 25 million children have been aborted in this country since Roe vs Wade is because people were given the opportunity to kill their children if they didn’t want them.
If the Fright Wing was serious about eliminating abortion they’d do something about the conditions under which women feel that abortion is the better choice than pregnancy.
Since the actual goal is to foment misogyny and fear, Abe fits right in with the party line.
You said: And Karl Rove will still be frog marched out of the White House in handcuffs.
>You’ve got a Democratic Senator Ted Kennedy who was responsible for the death of a woman and didn’t get help for 10 hours and you have no outrage. Yet you believe Karl Rove revealed the identity of a woman who had been undercover 6 years prior and you demand his arrest.
If you can’t get over your hard on for Ted Kennedy I’m just going to have to start pointing out that by your criteria, somebody out to arrest the First Lady as well.
I’ve got it all bookmarked in preparation.
>Again it comes down to values. When anything is acceptable in a society the morals begin to slide down hill.
When you insist on your values being enshrined in the nation’s laws instead of the common values we share, you are nothing but a wannabe tyrant.
>If we had a Jewish President we would expect him to lead our country with the respect, values and morals that would help us to prosper.
I note you skipped the part where I asked if you’d supported President Clinton with the same Christian fervor.
And the current occupant of the Oval Office has gone back on his word (some of us call that “lying”)
>>You went on: I guess you’re praying extra hard for Laura Bush then, eh?
>She doesn’t make the laws nor is she in a position to
Oh, come on, you’re going to tell me you weren’t gunning for Hillary Clinton every minute she was First Lady?
I’ll tell you right now, I don’t believe you. I’ll also tell you why.
Valerie Wilson.
>We took out a dictator who killed thousands of his own people. War is Hell. If this country had chosen not to fight any wars we wouldn’t exist today.
I didn’t say any war. I said the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. I think the invasion of Afghanistan was justified by the Taliban’s support of the 9/11 terrorists (though that didn’t lead us to do anything about Saudi Arabia, curiously enough.
In Iraq, a plausible argument can be made that we’ve killed more Iraqis than Saddam did. But the bar doesn’t have to be so low.
Should the United States, as it seeks to export democracy have higher standards than not being as bad as a psychotic dictator? (Note the Heritage Foundation in that last link cites the Geneva Convention in its headlines. I guess that was before it was declared “quaint” by Abu Ghraib Gonzalez.
And if not, what moral or Christian values do we display for all the world to see?
>But even then, the dress was stained with semen, not with blood. I ardently wish our current occupant of the Oval Office could say the same.�
So then your morals depend, not on the crime, but on who committed it.
Senator Kennedy’s situation led to the death of a woman, no foul?
Laura Bush.
>This is what I mean by morals and values.
Your morals and values are clearly on display Abe. I don’t think they lead where you believe they will, and I hope you will wake up before it is too late.
Mike:
>Maybe you forget that this is a war on terror. If you believe that Saddam Hussein did not harbor terrorists and was not a terrorist himself, then you head is in the sand. We are going to have to fight terrorist all over the world. Do you think that if had left Saddam Hussein alone that he would never gotten WMDs. Even if he did not have WMDs (and I think he did  he used them before), it was only a matter of time before he did have them. Would you rather deal with him now or wait until he had nukes?
Saddam Hussein was being dealt with. His WMD program was in ruins.
And, Dick Cheney’s lies and flip-flopping to the contrary, before the American Invasion of Iraq, terrorists weren’t being given haven in Iraq.
Not to interrupt your impotent rage filled fantasies with an uncooperative fact. It’s only temporary. Just hit the reset button.
July 24th, 2005 at 2:24 pmAnd thanks for all the personally identifying info. I will pass it along to the appropriate authorities. You are a national security risk. Show me one Bush supporter that isn’t these days.
July 24th, 2005 at 2:24 pmProof of my last challenge.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002399039_aswat24m.html
July 24th, 2005 at 2:26 pmNunya,
I’d be awful careful talking about hiding under the white sheets. We jus might have to bring up Robert KKK Byrd who got his start in politics as a clansman in West Virginia (which, by the way had been a blue state for decades until 2000).
Why don’t you do a little research and find out which party tried to block the Civil Rights legislation of the 1960s. Most of them were Demoncrats like Byrd, Fullbright, Faubus, and others. If you want to go back far enough, the Democrats were for slavery, too. Remember that Lincoln was a Republican and Stephen A. Douglas (Lincoln’s opponent for those of you in the blue states) was a Democrat who, for political expediency, was against any anti-slavery legislation.
Further, Democratic presidents led America in to most of the major wars of the 20th Century:
Wilson WWI
FDR WWII
Truman Korea
Kennedy/ Johnson Vietnam
Clinton Bosnia
Bush 1 Desert Storm
Bush 2 Iraq
That’s 5:2. Now let’s start adding up the number of dead from the conflicts. BINGO! The Demoncrats dead: 200,000 or so. Bushes dead: 2,000 or so.
If you are going to look at history, kiddo, don’t be so darned selective. It makes your ignorance show through.
Which party is the warmongering party? Facts don’t lie.
July 24th, 2005 at 2:32 pmNunya,
As for you last challenge: we didn’t want to trample on his civil rights, did we? We certainly don’t want to offend the terrorists. After, Big Brother (ACLU) and the Demoncrat Frencies might be watching.
Some slip through the cracks. Get real.
How about looking at the absence of terror attacks on the U.S. since 9/11. I wonder how many down there in Club Gitmo would have been our next suicide bomber?
July 24th, 2005 at 2:39 pmnunya, nunya, nunya…
Saddam Hussein was being dealt with? He had free reign. Nineteen U.N Resolutions really dealt with him. He basically told them to kiss his ass.
Also, it was not only Bush, et al who really believed that Hussein had WMDs. The majority of western leaders, including most of the Demoncrats in the good ol’ USA also believed it. But, in your blind hatred for Bush, you overlook these things.
I am a threat to National Secturity? Get real. If it were not for the Republicans, there would be NO national security. I think we need to lood at your library card record.
July 24th, 2005 at 2:53 pmNunya, dear.
I am not ashamed of who I am.
I think I love you.
July 24th, 2005 at 2:56 pmI hope you are female, nunya.
July 24th, 2005 at 2:57 pmMike,
At least Byrd has changed his ways, unlike Frist and Lott would would not apologize for the lynching of blacks and civil rights workers.
Also, the Dems for slavery were refered to as “Dixie-crats”, owing more alligance to southern culture and mindset than to democracy. Compare conservative views in the Republican party back then to those held now, and you will find Abe Lincoln supported moreso by Bill Clinton than by BushCo. Show me BushCo’s conservativeness? Biggest deficit in history under BushCo. Surplus by Clinton. Get it?
July 24th, 2005 at 2:59 pmSouthern dude said: “Unfortunately a reversal of roe versus wade – could mean millions of unwanted births.”
Or it could mean that since adults no longer have the choice of killing their children people might begin to take precautions against unwanted pregnancy.
Prior to Roe vs Wade their were consequences for behavior. With consequences came responsibility.
Roe vs Wade didn’t lower the incidence of childbirth out of wedlock. With 25 million aborted children it obviously wasn’t just for women being raped, incest or birth defects, it became a contraceptive.
It gave adults a way to erase a consequence of an accident.
Killing the consequence however led to untold misery in later years for women who suffered from guilt.
Studies show that abortion leads to future health risks for woman.
Legalizing the murder of children simply helped to lead to more promiscuity. Our values and morality slipped a notch and for many, their self worth suffered as well.
You said that abortion was lower during the Clinton years. Did you think maybe people saw the effect of adultery and steered away from it temporarily.
Clinton was an adulterer who tried to slam his mistress when the heat was on and later lied about it.
In court he tried to argue the meaning of the word “is”
He wasn’t a hero, he was a con man who tried to avoid consequences for his actions by blaming those who caught him.
He was also accused of rape and referred all questions about it to his lawyer. He refused to even deny it!
He was the champion of the Democratic Party for 8 years and his followers refused to notice.
If nobody wants abortion, (as you say) why is it legal? Why has it become accepted? Why are people who oppose it openly accused of subjecting women to backstreet abortions?
You also said: “Kerry also lost because Kerry did not appeal to a lot of people. That’s fair but it was a little of all these factors not because W is so great. Look at his approvals numbers now.”
Bush’s approval numbers, in part are a result of a liberal press telling us how badly things are going, that we’re trapped in a quagmire with no way out.
If you spent time telling everyone you knew that you were a miserable failure and all your best laid plans seem to fail, you’re numbers would drop too.
The fact that you can’t see this begs questions about your intelligence.
Can you imagine how our enemy might react if they continually heard that the people of Iraq were behind us? If they believed that the American people backed the invasion solidly and that our resolve at home was as strong as on the battlefield?
Do you suppose our enemies would give up if there were demonstrations supporting our troops on the TV instead of sonstantly hearing about people who demand we give up and come home?
You have to use common sense when you look at how your party has played their card in this situation.
No matter how much the Democratic Party wants “their followers” to believe they support the troops, they aren’t fooling our soldiers or their families.
When you tell an enemy that their resolve is working and that many people are against the actions against them, you are giving them comfort and aid.
Senator Durbin’s words were used against us by our enemies.
If you were involved in a court battle and a member of your family revealed holes in your defense to the opposing side, would it effect their Christmas gift from you?
Use some common sense.
The wish for power in the Democratic Party is so strong that they would aid our enemies in an attempt to defeat our army to damage the current administration.
Many Democats think things are going to change drastically in the next election. They believe that by destroying our resolve we will walk away defeated and vote them in to office.
The press doesn’t have the leverage it did in the 60’s or even the 90’s. People are listening to talk radio and getting their news from the Internet now.
How long did it take for Rather’s forged documents to be uncovered? How did that action help to move people toward Bush in the last election.
How much more will that change in the following 2 years?
It seems the only time the Democratic Party wants to take up arms is in attempt to shoot our government.
There are 3 more years to go until the next election.
Three more years of Democrats tearing our leaders apart in an attempt to make themselves seem better.
3 years of Howard Dean screaming about how stupid every Republican is.
3 more yers of Democrats telling us how we are losers, we need to raise taxes, and that all is lost.
Clinton warned us of impending problems with social sucurity in 1995 and the Democrats agreed and did nothing.
After seven years on non action the democrats can no longer see a problem… nor can their supporters.
It’s been coming home to roost since 1993 and the Democrats don’t get it.
Morality, honor and perservance are traits of a strong nation. Cowardice, defeatism and moral decay leads to destruction.
Choose your battles wisely. When you accept mediocrity you choose to loose.
Lost many elections lately?
Abe
July 24th, 2005 at 3:02 pmSkid asked: “Is it faith in America or is it in God? Don’t confuse to two ideologies. America states seperation of church and state, so which is it? Render unto Ceasar, Abe.”
I’ll ask you Skid, which do you think is more influential in your life, your faith in God or your faith in our country?
Which would you abandon first if you had to choose?
Abe
July 24th, 2005 at 3:06 pmSkid said: “Biggest deficit in history under BushCo. Surplus by Clinton. Get it?”
I guess if you fail to reveal any hint of what caused the deficit your stats sound impressive.
When you add the costs involved in 9-11, Homeland security, and wars in two countries you start to see how it happened.
When you show your side of an issue while ignoring any cause and effect it demostrates either monumental stupidity on your part or a willingness to deceive. (also known as giving false witness… by those who know God)
Imagine if all textbooks began and ended with the United States dropping two atomic bombs on Japan for no apparent reason?
How would you describe your comment here Skid, monumental stupidy or deceit?
Abe
July 24th, 2005 at 3:20 pmSkid,
yeah, I get it. Clinton didn’t do anything about terrorism in his two (very) long terms and didn’t have 9/11. If he would have spent a little of that surplus on national security and fighting terrorism, there would not have been a 9/11. It’s easy to have a surplus when you don’t spend any money where it counts.
And, argue as you will, even the moderate Democrat economists admit that the Clinton era ended with a recession. I have often wondered what would be happening now, if Clinton could have had a 3rd term. A recsssion and 9/11 — goodbye surplus. It takes money to protect us, nimrod.
July 24th, 2005 at 3:20 pmKill them all, God will recognize his own.
-Arnald-Amalric, 1208 (when asked by the Crusaders what to do with the citizens of Beziers who were a mixture of Catholics and Cathars)
http://www.nobeliefs.com/worst-quotes.htm
July 24th, 2005 at 3:21 pmByrd changed his ways? Hardly. Just a couple of years ago he used the “n” word twice in one interview.
As for Dixie-Crats, that was 1948, not 1860. You need to study history a bit before you spouting off your ignorance.
In 1948, Strom Thurmond (a Demoncrat) ran on the Dixie-crat ticket. Just in case you skipped that chapter in your history book, he lost. Interesting, in 1948 when Thurmond was a Demoncrat, he was a die hard racist and segregationalist. He finally saw the light and changed his ways and became a Republican. And, he did apologize for his former views.
Why should Frist and Lott apologize for slavery? Did they own slaves?
July 24th, 2005 at 3:26 pmI really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way – all of them who have tried to secularize America – I point the finger in their face and say “you helped this happen.”
-Jerry Falwell (13 Sep. 2001 on the Christian Broadcasting Network explaining who helped in the World Trade Center & Pentagon tragedy.)
http://www.nobeliefs.com/worst-quotes.htm
After we get some competent adults back in the White House to deal with the Taliban, I think we will have to deal with you and your ilk, once and for all.
July 24th, 2005 at 3:28 pmAfter all, YOUR god will recognize his own.
July 24th, 2005 at 3:29 pmgod said: “After we get some competent adults back in the White House to deal with the Taliban, I think we will have to deal with you and your ilk, once and for all.”
It was a lack of competent adults in the White House for 8 years that got us where we are today.
Even Osama said he watched our military response during Clinton’s reign and determined America was a paper tiger.
As I said before, they hate us because we’re strong.
We seemed much weaker when Clinton was dropping bombs on empty asprin factories while trying to change subjects while his mistress gave details of his adultery.
July 24th, 2005 at 3:39 pmIf your enemy perceives you as weak they will attack.
Our press and the Democratic Party think we’re weak too, perhaps that’s why they are being defeated in elections and circulation.
“god,”
One of my biggest regrets is Falwell’s apology for this statement. He is correct in his assessment. God (the real one, not you), is punishing America for turning from Him. In that sense, it is possible that we did deserve 9/11. Not because of our past actions with the terrorist nations but becuase of our wicked ways. If you are to believe the Bible, you have to believe all of it or none of it. Sodom, Gomorrah, Noah’s flood…what was God’s purpose in all of this? to destroy wickedness.
Chronicles 7:14
“If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”
Oh, but we are not a Christian nation, most Demoncrats will say. Bull. The first document forged on the American continent, “The Mayflower Compact,” begins with the words, “In the Name of God, Amen.”
John Winthrop, the founder of the Massacusetts Bay Colony, talked about America being like “an shining citie on a hill” for the whole world to see, and he wasn’t talking building a lighthouse. He was talking about founding a Christian nation.
Jefferson said that our “inalienable rights” were endowed by whom? “Our Creator.” When the Constitutional Convention got bogged down from time-to-time, our founding fathers would stop to pray (thank God Madelyn O’Hair Murray was nowhere around in those days). The tradtion of opening the congressional sessions with prayer and having a House and Senate Chaplain began with Washington. Lincoln often invoked God during his troubled presidency and was often found on bended knee praying.
Does this sound like a secular nation? Our history is filled with references to Christianity.
This is the history that the liberals try to debunk and forget in their revisionism.
July 24th, 2005 at 3:44 pmI fear the Demoncrat enemy within more than the enemy without. Demoncrats are wolves in sheep’s clothing (to use a horrile cliche — but I want to put it into terms even the smartest Demoncrat [oxymoron] can understand.
It is the Demoncrats of America, not the Osama Bin Laden’s of the world, that will finally be our undoing.
A pox upon you!
July 24th, 2005 at 3:50 pmWell, Abe, I think we have finally rendered them speechless. Good job.
July 24th, 2005 at 3:52 pmThey’re never speechless, soon they’ll be back to telling us about how Rove outed someone who hadn’t been in for 6 years.
July 24th, 2005 at 3:57 pmJefferson said that our “inalienable rights� were endowed by whom? “Our Creator.� When the Constitutional Convention got bogged down from time-to-time, our founding fathers would stop to pray (thank God Madelyn O’Hair Murray was nowhere around in those days). The tradtion of opening the congressional sessions with prayer and having a House and Senate Chaplain began with Washington. Lincoln often invoked God during his troubled presidency and was often found on bended knee praying.
Does this sound like a secular nation? Our history is filled with references to Christianity.
This is the history that the liberals try to debunk and forget in their revisionism.
Thomas Jefferson, like most of the founders, was a Deist. He, like most of them, and all of us, thought small “c” christians like you were dangerous idiots.
I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature…..Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make half the world fools and half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world.
Thomas Jefferson, in his Notes on Virginia
July 24th, 2005 at 4:14 pmDamn, I’m almost convinced you guys must be parody trolls. You are good.
“Our forefathers were children of the Enlightenment and, like many thinkers of the day, a large number of them were deists. Deist is the theological term for someone who wears a white wig and believes the universe was created by an impersonal Creator and works according to universal and mechanical laws, like a clock (or like Al Gore). Deists do not believe in divine revelation and are in no sense Christians.
In fact, Jefferson rewrote the Bible. He sat down one day and marked through all the parts he didn’t like and then published what was left as the Jefferson Bible, which can still be bought today. In other words, he decided to edit the Word of God – suffice it to say Jefferson didn’t suffer from too much humility. Like several other of the Founding Fathers, he felt that there were large parts of the Christian tradition that were harmful to a healthy society, so he just cut them out. It is an indicator of how far we have strayed from our past that no candidate or president today could do the same thing (although most presidents do live according to a different set of rules).
The point, of course, is that all the attempts by the Christian Right to turn our country back to its religious heritage are somewhat self-defeating, since many of the Founding Fathers weren’t even Christian. They rolled over in their graves when they heard prayers in schools and saw the Ten Commandments posted in courthouses.”
July 24th, 2005 at 4:24 pmGo buy a Jefferson Bible.
July 24th, 2005 at 4:27 pmDamn, just read it for free, you commie freeloader.
http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/
July 24th, 2005 at 4:28 pmThese guys can’t be serious. They must be parody trolls. If they aren’t, we need to get the weed-whacker out now.
In an 1815 letter to Charles Clay, Jefferson said he “had taken the four Evangelists” and “cut out from them every text they had recorded of the moral precepts of Jesus, and arranged them in a certain order, and although they appeared but as fragments, yet fragments of the most sublime edifice of morality which had ever been exhibited.”
Jefferson shared this little book with a number of friends, but he never let it be published during his lifetime. In letters, he said he was reluctant to let it become public because it could be misunderstood or even used by his rivals to slander him.
The book was first published in 1903 for the United States Congress. For many years copies were given to new members of Congress. The text is now freely available on the Internet since it is in the public domain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible
July 24th, 2005 at 4:31 pmstand corrected the word is Diest.
and since when is torture ok? And why did either of you two Mike or Abe not answer the torture question I posed to you. Could it be because you are Fascist?
- sDude
July 24th, 2005 at 4:57 pmPharisees=Mike and Abe. Fascist=Mike and Abe.
You would have been great SS men in Hitler’s Gestapo.
Do you embeciles not know that Germany was both a very
religious and militeristic country. The people of Germany
believed they had God on their side. They believed and thought that Hitler was the TITs. Just like you believe in your idiot king.
- beelsubub
July 24th, 2005 at 5:11 pmsDude,
It’s “deist”. From the latin Deus.
Abe and Mike are the “commie freeloaders”. In their view they should get all of the benefits and bear none of the burdens of taxation. I actually am opposed to income tax. Wealth should be taxed, not income, but the corporate-Leninists who run this country won’t allow that. It’s better to tax the poor. Ever heard of Henry George?
http://www.progress.org/books/george.htm
July 24th, 2005 at 5:21 pmI think they realized what idiots they are. How can you argue with Thomas Jefferson?
July 24th, 2005 at 5:22 pmMike.
So you admit that 25K to Israel is Saddams contribution to terrorism. Ok thats fair.
Did your son die for Israel? Are you suited in your uniform to fight for Isreal?
If not STFU.
- sDude
July 24th, 2005 at 5:23 pmIt’s frightening to think that one of those pea brains actually claims to have taught college level courses. But college level in Wyoming must be like high school in NY or LA.
July 24th, 2005 at 5:28 pmSo you admit that 25K to Israel is Saddams contribution to terrorism. Ok thats fair.
These payments were after the fact to aid the families who lost a breadwinner. They were in no way a quid pro quo. They were charity. In most cases the families had no idea their sons and husbands planned to do these things. Concede nothing to these morons. They are liars from the get go.
July 24th, 2005 at 5:30 pmAbe…? Mike…?
July 24th, 2005 at 6:09 pmIt was the thunderbolt, Hicks. I warned them.
July 24th, 2005 at 6:10 pmPriceless! Run right out and purchase these, Mike and Abe, If you can still run. If not, crawl.
http://patriotboy.blogspot.com/2005_07_24_patriotboy_archive.html#112218602510237668
July 24th, 2005 at 6:14 pmOkay boys,
Try to understand this
The Democratic Party has been losing power in government for 11 years because the American people don’t believe them, they don’t think they can lead and, most importantly, they have no pride in their own country.
To listen to you folks you’d think we are responsible for: weather, the actions of people in other countries who hate us, shoving religion down the throat of Americans, too much pride in our country, we want to force young mothers into back alleys for abortions and we have an army of vicious killers.
You folks are filled with hatred, anger and you have no faith in God. It’s no wonder your numbers are shrinking.
I don’t blame you for not seeing it. To be nice, you’re idiots and these facts don’t occur to you, even now.
I’m glad Mike and I keep you entertained. The important thing to remember is that our party is in power and you’re party isn’t.
Abe
July 24th, 2005 at 7:17 pmyou said: “and since when is torture ok?”
Well the democrats have no problem with the fact that Senator Kennedy sent a young woman to her grave slowly without going for help for 10 hours. It’s been 36 years and the silence has been universal
They say she was alive for some time gasping in a small bubble of air. She died gasping for air while Senator Kennedy consulted with his legal team about how to get away with it.
Since you like links, here’s one:
http://www.ytedk.com/intro.htm
Now that’s torture… and she wasn’t even an enemy.
She was one of Bobby Kennedy’s secretaries and voted Democratic!
If you’re referring to the terrorists without a country, uniform or any desire other than to destroy all Americans… I don’t think we should torture them. I don’t think we should take prisoners. They should be killed on the battlefield.
Since this group is loyal only to their religion (as they say) and their religion requires them to die killing the infidels, we should give them the opportunity to denounce their religion by flushing their own Koran down the toilet.
These terrorists are willing to blow themselves up along with innocent bystanders of all religious and political affiliations. They’ll do it in any country at any time for their own reasons. Anywhere is their battlefield.
Their greatest desire is to die for Allah.
What does a soldier do with a potential enemy explosive on the battlefield?
He destroys it.
I say they should be put into one area… and blown up.
any questions?
Abe
July 24th, 2005 at 7:41 pmI could care less, what Kennedy did. Laura Bush and him should at least have something in common. What that is has nothing to do with the P.O.W camps. In the case of the P.O.W’s the government is condoning the violence and turning a blind eye to it every time its brought up. And secondly the Kennedy and Bush things are accidents!!!! you idiot. P.O.W’s are not accidentally torchered and abducted. Just because the military suspects someone of being terrorist doesn’t justify them doing what they want to them. Thats the same kind of logic the terrorist use to meet their own ends. Is the U.S. setting a good example? its surely not winning hearts and minds with bully boy tactics. Furthermore, who cares if the Republicans are in power, they cheated to get there and no one has forgotten that. And furthermore, Abe you need to go to school and get a education, what you don’t know about politics is painful to watch. You think Bush gives a crap about you and your religious beliefs, all he cares about is placating you so he can line his pockets. Isn’t it funny a family tied to the CIA, MIC, Energy and Defense Industry, are making policies that are conducive to making mega profits in those industries at the expensive of the american peoples best interest, it would appear that the Bushes and their cronies best interest are at the heart of the adminstrations polices.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:06 pmsouthernDude,
Get over it! My goodness, but you have a bitter attitude over the 2000 election. In your opinion, the Republicans stole the election; in mine (and the Supreme Court, the New York Times and oh, about 50,000,000 other Americans my man Bush won. IT IS OVER! FOR PETE’S SAKE, GET OVER IT!
As for education in Wyoming colleges: how many Vice Presidents has UCLA produced? How about NYU? My little old ex-college in Wyoming produced Dick Cheney and evidently he is smart enough to out-smart all of you and your liberal ilk.
I admit that I am one of the very few conservatives teaching in the postsecondary arena. We are few. But, we do exist and we teach. However, unlike my liberal colleages, I do not bring my political agenda into my classroom.
I do not teach in Wyoming anymore. I moved to another red state on the east coast and I love it because most of my students seem to be pro-Bush.
I have been teaching for about 35 years and I have seen first-hand what the liberals have done to the educational system, everything from curriculum to discipline. And, now we have a nation of idiots. a Clear 40% of incoming freshmen (and freshwomen for your libbers), are functionally illiterate. We have dummed down the curriculum, the aptitude tests, and the rigor of education to please all of the liberals. And now they want to endorse ebonics? Mein Gott, where’s the bottom?
July 24th, 2005 at 11:37 pmReferring to the death of Mary Jo at Senator Kennedy’s hand 36 years ago in which he consulted with his lawyer and then waited 10 hours before calling for help while she suffocated in his capsized car, Southern dude said:
I could care less, what Kennedy did…
He then went on to complain about Bush.
This is why the Democratic Party keeps losing elections.
When they admit they have no problem with having a murderer on your team and choose him as your spokesperson on morality, it’s impossible for many to take anything else you say seriously.
As long as others on your team take you seriously, the Republicans will stay in power.
For that, I thank you.
Abe
July 24th, 2005 at 11:57 pmAnd, just to think: in a couple of months, the Rebublicans will have full control of all 3 brances of government.
And, for a bonus, Rehnquist will retire within a year, so chalk up another one for the conservatives. We all know that Supreme Court justices impact American politics for deacades.
I just thought I would give you something else to think about.
We will continue to win as long as the Democrat Party is filled with wingnuts like Jason, southernDode, and “god”(less.
July 25th, 2005 at 12:06 amAbe…
Listen carefully, I know it must be hard for you to understand…
You said (in comment 192)
“What your logic fails to address is that we have yet to learn that corporate America was involved in the oil for food program or that they made millions as other countries did. You “assumeâ€? that they were, and build your argument on your assumption.”
My argument does not rely on American companies being involved in oil for food at all.
Given that American companies were involved, the profits from the war on Iraq are much higher and therefore they would prefer to go down that route.
Given that American companies weren’t involved, the profits from the war on Iraq are even more significantly higher and therefore…
Simple.
Now, please just stop the strawman arguments, the ad hominem attacks and either engage in civilised discussions and debates or leave.
Z.
July 25th, 2005 at 11:41 amAbe…
You also said…
“As any Christian knows, there are no deadly sins. All of our sins are covered by faith in Jesus Christ and no sin is too big to be covered by grace”
Given that you believe that no Sin is too big why are you so set against homosexuality? Wouldn’t Murder and Homosexual sex be covered by grace? If so then why are you so judgemental when God isn’t? If they are not covered then what other sins aren’t covered?
Z.
July 25th, 2005 at 12:44 pmBrothers Mike and Abe are my kin in the struggle for all that is Holy. Praise Jesus! Repent now, ye evile sodomites and catamites! The hellfires burn hot in the pit of damnation for all ye who do not accept Jesus now as your personal Savior! Liberals have ruined this country by making it a crime to speak the name of Jesus! Human sacrifice of the unborn! Millions have died in this holocaust. Women are unclean! The Papists and Jewish heretics will never see the paradise that awaits all ye who enter the Tabernacle of the one true God!
July 25th, 2005 at 2:05 pmShorter Mike and Abe:
Ted Kennedy is a Murderer.
July 25th, 2005 at 3:08 pmEverything is the liberals fault.
Republican power is eternal, ubiquitous and omnipotent.
Ted Kennedy is a murderer.
Zwak said: “Given that you believe that no Sin is too big why are you so set against homosexuality? Wouldn’t Murder and Homosexual sex be covered by grace? If so then why are you so judgemental when God isn’t? If they are not covered then what other sins aren’t covered?”
If you don’t understand the Bible or grace I can’t explain it to you in a posting.
July 25th, 2005 at 3:21 pmPick up a Bible, read the New Testament. See what it says about grace.
Grace comes after you have repented of your sins and ask for forgiveness. Since God knows your heart, He determines the rest.
Sister,
The good Senator did his murderering 36 years ago.
Ask yourself how his political career may have faired if he was a Republican.
The Dems wanted to make a big deal out of Bush’s drunk driving conviction of 25 years prior, can you imagine what they would do with a murder?
I say the Dems are hypocrites. Give me your defense against my remark.
Abe
July 25th, 2005 at 3:25 pmAbe –
Nice try, but you didn’t answer the question. At least answer the last part… If God isn’t so judgemental why should you be? Particularly taking “Let he who is without sin , cast the first stone” into account.
I feel that I understand the Bible and Grace, but I also understand that Jesus preached against judging others and against gathering riches to yourself. While he preached for forgiveness, tolerance and compassion.
None of your postings seems to take any of his common themes into account. If your condemnation of homosexuality is based entirely on Leviticus then do you follow the rest of the Levitical laws? Do you avoid Women during their unclean time? Do you eat Pork? Do you eat Shrimp?
Z.
July 25th, 2005 at 4:11 pmCome to the Tabernacle! Kneel before him! Let him into your heart! The Shining City on the Hill awaits! O, Jesus! Thou art great. Thou art my one trur savior!
July 25th, 2005 at 5:35 pmrepublicans have taken hypocracy to new heights and
July 25th, 2005 at 7:41 pmAbe is an asshole.
- mike
Zwack,
You said: ” If God isn’t so judgemental why should you be? Particularly taking “Let he who is without sin , cast the first stoneâ€? into account.”
Well Zwack,
If you’ll read the whole story you grabbed one line from, you’ll notice the important lesson of the story.
John 8:11
Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
Jesus didn’t tell the woman that her sin was acceptable, he saved her from a death sentence handed out by a group of men who had somehow failed to capture the man she was committing adultery with.
You have to read about two complete paragraphs to get the whole story.
Since you agree that we should follow the Bible, here’s a scripture you might be interested in:
Ecclesiastes 10:2 New International Version (NIV)
2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
but the heart of the fool to the left.
Would you interpret that scripture to mean that those whose behaviors are contrary to God’s laws are doing the correct thing?
Share your Bible knowledge please?
Abe
July 25th, 2005 at 8:56 pmZwack also said:
None of your postings seems to take any of his common themes into account. If your condemnation of homosexuality is based entirely on Leviticus then do you follow the rest of the Levitical laws? Do you avoid Women during their unclean time? Do you eat Pork? Do you eat Shrimp?
Adultery involves (in part) having sex with someone with whom you aren’t married.
God described marriage as a union between a man and a woman. He didn’t leave much wiggle room.
I don’t need Leviticus to understand God’s purpose in creating two different sexes.
God also described adultery as turning away from His laws, that is why He “divorced” Israel.
When a same sex union exists, you get a two-fer.
The participants have committed adultery in two different ways.
Since you want discount Levitical law, as well as the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, where in the Bible does it say that homosexuality is acceptable?
Can you find any stories Jesus told of two married men or women?
If it is as natural as you would have us believe, why isn’t the Bible filled with wonderful stories about it?
Abe
July 25th, 2005 at 9:10 pmabe s**cks dick
July 25th, 2005 at 9:14 pmYou said:
republicans have taken hypocracy to new heights
I’ll bet you’re not thinking about Senator Kerry and his billionaire wife who had taken every possible tax cut available to them… while saying that Republicans have created tax cuts for the rich.
Or Senator Kennedy who left a girl to die gasping for air while he consulted his laywers 36 years ago and now lectures about torture against terrorists who have proclaimed and demonstrated that they want to kill anyone who is an American.
Do you even understand the meaning of the word hypocrisy?
I’ll help you out:
Main Entry: hy·poc·ri·sy
Pronunciation: hi-’pä-kr&-sE also hI-
Function: noun
1 : a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not.
July 25th, 2005 at 9:23 pmBrother festus,
You said: Liberals have ruined this country by making it a crime to speak the name of Jesus!
The Bible says:
July 25th, 2005 at 9:29 pmMark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
You said: “republicans have taken hypocracy to new heights and
Abe is an asshole.”
and….”abe s**cks dick”
From that I’ll assume that you’ve run out of anything to say in support your claim while lacking the common sense to be silent and consider your position.
When you resort to meaningless 4th grade expressions it’s an indication that a childish spirit has overtaken your mind and you lack the ability to control it.
Unless you’re 14 years old…. then it’s just immaturity and you’ll outgrow it, along with your liberal leanings.
Abe
July 25th, 2005 at 9:36 pmSister jackmehoff said:
Ted Kennedy is a Murderer.
Everything is the liberals fault.
Republican power is eternal, ubiquitous and omnipotent.
Ted Kennedy is a murderer.
Three out of four ain’t bad. you’re learning… Sister.
I guess you’re “name proclaimed” extra ciricular activities haven’t made you totally blind.
Abe
July 25th, 2005 at 9:41 pm2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
but the heart of the fool to the left.
Stone the left handed! It’s the old ways!
July 25th, 2005 at 9:44 pmBrother Abe! Beware, there be demons here! They called me Purina lion chow and kibble! Run! Pagans and wiccans and Romans and Romanian communists!
July 25th, 2005 at 9:46 pmBrother festus,
Not the hand, the heart…
Even though you’re out of school for the summer, you shouldn’t neglect your reading comprehension!
Did you mean stone the left hearted?
July 25th, 2005 at 9:51 pmYou don’t want that, there would be no one “left” to vote for when you are old enough to vote.
Brother said: “Brother Abe! Beware, there be demons here! They called me Purina lion chow and kibble! Run! Pagans and wiccans and Romans and Romanian communists!”
Imagine what they call you when your back is turned…
July 25th, 2005 at 9:53 pmJefferson was left handed. I’m certain of it! He advocated free public education, an idea considered radical not only by his contemporaries but the entire world today. He must be stoned!
July 25th, 2005 at 10:01 pmYou are either an incredible idiot or an amazingly convincing parody troll. In either case, anyone who takes you seriously is a fool.
July 25th, 2005 at 10:03 pmFestus,
As I explained, the scripture said left hearded, not handed.
You have to suppress your “nit” when trying to use your wit.
Shouldn’t you be in bed by now?
Abe
July 25th, 2005 at 10:04 pmAbe try…
With the John quote the “go now and leave your life of sin” part is not as important in my eyes as the forgiveness of an alleged sinner. But how about this one for clarity….
Matthew 7…
1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Again that says to me, do not judge others, do you have some other reading of it? I don’t know of any Bible verses that state that homosexuality is acceptable. But The New Testament shows a compassionate, caring God. The Old Testament shows a vengeful, vindictive God. I believe that Jesus made a new covenant which changes our relationship with God significantly.
If you don’t want to discount Levitical law do you eat Shrimp and Pork? Are you selective?
Z.
July 25th, 2005 at 10:05 pmBrother, you said: You are either an incredible idiot or an amazingly convincing parody troll. In either case, anyone who takes you seriously is a fool.
I think I’ve struck a nerve. Your anger indicates that you are taking this seriously.
Wouldn’t “fool” be a better screen name for you?
Abe
July 25th, 2005 at 10:07 pmZwack,
1 Corinthians 6:2-4
2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
As Christians we are told to judge what we see around us in order to make Godly decisions in our own lives.
In our churches we are told to judge the conduct of those who call themselves believers so that others aren’t swayed to follow their sinful ways.
If a member of your family was violating the law you would certainly speak up, why would you remain silent in your church family?
Are you saying that we shouldn’t judge behaviors in those who would ask for our vote to lead us?
Should Christians embrace a leader who supports abortion, even late term abortion, without using judgement?
How about a leader who believes that God’s word shouldn’t be uttered in schools or that public prayer is unacceptable?
Should you vote for a leader who sets aside his views on God while at work?
Would you want a wife who sets aside her vows to you when you aren’t around?
As Christians in the Body of the church, we are said to be married to Christ.
The sacrament of communion was taken from a proposal of marriage that was customary in Christ’s time on earth.
the church is called Christ’s bride.
Shouldn’t we speak out when we see behaviors that are ungodly which surround us in a secular world, despite the complaints of non-believers (Those who don’t follow God’s laws)
Doesn’t the Bible also say that our ways are not His ways nor His ways ours?
You also said: “If you don’t want to discount Levitical law do you eat Shrimp and Pork? Are you selective?”
I didn’t say we shouldn’t discount Levitical law, but we shouldn’t discount all of the Old Testament. In His ministry, Christ quoted The Old Testament exclusively.
You said: But The New Testament shows a compassionate, caring God.
You haven’t spent any time reading Revelations then. The end times promise to be Hell on earth and the key to salvation has everytthing to do with our relationship with Christ.
Revelation 3:16 (New International Version)
So, because you are lukewarmâ€â€neither hot nor coldâ€â€I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
God requires us to make judgements and not to conform to this world. Those who choose not to are considered lukewarm.
He speaks of those people who claimed to believe in Him while their actions were in conflict with His teachings:
Read Mark 8:38 again:
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
If we’re ashamed to judge what we recognize as ungodly and accept it in order not to offend others in this poltically correct world,(Read: Sinful generation) we offend God.
Democrats would ask us to conform ourselves to this secular world, God tells us to transform ourselves to the renewing of our hearts.
Abe
July 25th, 2005 at 10:38 pmAbe & Mike
Your view can only exist through indoctrination that likely started at an early age, for that reason you’ll probably never be able to see the whole picture.
Please don’t tell me again that I’m full of hate, for I hate nobody, not even G.W.Bush or John Kerry or Saddam Hussein or Ariel Sharon not you not anybody.
Your sentiment is disturbing, no violence will ever bring peace, it will only make it worse.
Forget the politics for a moment and judge the actions by people who believe they have the God given right to kill their fellow man because of religion or economics or even convenience and ask yourself whether anybody has the right.
“An eye for an eye” will lead to a point of no return, “turning the other cheek” and dialogue on the other hand can bring hope and resolve.
Religions only divide true believe unites.
Please stop preaching religion and start believing only then will you see, I work on this every day.
July 25th, 2005 at 11:18 pmSo the Bible contradicts itself yet again. Interesting quote from the first epistle to the Corinthians. But I don’t believe that God put us on earth to judge others. I also don’t think that we will be asked to judge others in heaven.
I believe that we should speak up and condemn people who commit acts that we feel go against the will of God. Some acts though are not so clearly against the will of God. Those are the ones that become divisive. Abortion as an example can be used as a method of Birth Control, but it also has a place in medicine where the act of giving birth would kill both the mother and child. Now, while I disagree with the first use, the second use, saving the life of a person I find acceptable. One of the commandments is “Thou shalt not kill” but people have been breaking that one forever. If you saw someone drowning and didn’t try to save them would you be guilty of killing them? What’s the difference between that and performing a medically necessary abortion?
I guess what it comes down to is that I believe in forgiveness and compassion. I also believe that people have to make their own choices and should be allowed to live in a way that they consider right. If I disagree with the way other people are living should I treat them with contempt or with compassion? Jesus treated outcasts with compassion, who am I to argue with him. Treating people with compassion does not mean that you have to become like them.
Revelations is an interesting book, but I find it to be one of the books of the New Testament that I have the most trouble with. Some of the Apocryphal texts make more sense in the New Testament to me than Revelations. You meay feel that the selection of Texts in the New Testament was an act of God, but even if guided by God the editing of the New Testament was done by Man and as we all know Errare humanum est.
I am not arrogant enough to believe that my faith is the precise correct faith that God ordained for us. Christianity itself has enough sects that even a Christian may turn out to be the wrong type of Christian when all is said and done.
It also seems to me that we disagree about exactly what is and is not ungodly. Some things are clearly ungodly (to me) and some things are a lot more difficult to judge. If I am wrong then I am prepared to accept my “punishment” but given the compassionate nature of God either I am SERIOUSLY wrong or I will be forgiven.
I maybe being cynical, but I don’t think most politicians are truly godly. The best that I can hope for is one that follows close to the ideal path in my book. Bush is not such a one.
Z.
p.s. I am not a Democrat either.
July 25th, 2005 at 11:39 pmJohn said:
Your view can only exist through indoctrination that likely started at an early age, for that reason you’ll probably never be able to see the whole picture.
I could say the same for you.
“Forget the politics for a moment and judge the actions by people who believe they have the God given right to kill their fellow man because of religion or economics or even convenience and ask yourself whether anybody has the right.”
Do you believe that if the United States would ignore terrorism (as it did during 8 years of Clinton) that it would stop?
Could a country that has no confidence in its strength or who downsizes its military in order to turn the other cheek protect its citizens from an enemy that believes their religion requires them to kill us becuase we don’t embrace their religion?
Who would we dialogue “with” in order to protect ourselves against terrorists determined to destroy us?
What would your dialogue be with a person who has strapped a bomb to himself who has been brought up to believe that he will be blessed for killing as many infidels as he possible can while killing himself?
How many words would you get out of your mouth regarding Christ before he took you with him in the hope of an extra reward?
How much of our freedom should we be willing to give up to an enemy determined to kill us all?
What you’ve missed in your study of religion is that
God protected Israel in battles when they trusted in Him.
When they rejected God, their enemies took them into captivity.
Our war on terror IS a holy war.
It is fought against people who want to defeat us because of the success that came to us as a result of our freedom… and because of our freedom to worship God our own way.
We aren’t fighting an eye for an eye. We aren’t fighting a nation, we’re fighting a group of people from many countries who believe their religion requires them to kill us.
This is like a war against a street gang, we can’t win it by turning the other cheek or preaching to them.
Our strengths didn’t come to us because we’re smarter or better, they were a gift from God.
As Christians we are told to fight the good fight to defeat the enemy Satan.
Can you see Satan in the religion that kills innocent civilians and sends its “warriors” to kill themselves for a reward of virgins?
What is your solution?
Abe
July 26th, 2005 at 12:02 amZwack,
You said: “I don’t believe that God put us on earth to judge others.”
I disagree. He put us on this earth in preparation for our entry into His Kingdom.
We are told to reject sin and our chief concern here is to seek after His Kingdom and its righteousness.
We are to judge rightly. To decern right from wrong.
It is impossible to determine right from wrong without making a judgement.
By understanding God’s laws and by listening to the promptings of The Holy Spirit, we make judgements daily in attempting to live our lives in ways that would be God honoring.
You can’t honor God by accepting or adapting to behaviors that are wrong.
When we make exceptions for sin, as in seeing the value of abortion in certain instances, we adapt to secular thinking and determine that God’s law should be broken if it is in our best interest.
God’s law is in our best interest.
He knows what happens to us when we drift from His word or take liberties with it.
The Bible is not a “living breathing document” that needs to change with the times.
The Old Testament had laws that God put into effect until He sent Christ to die for our sins. After that, the old law was done away with. Fullfilled.
you said: ” I am not arrogant enough to believe that my faith is the precise correct faith that God ordained for us.”
If you don’t believe it, you can’t defend it.
Christ has revealed Himself to us. As we grow in faith we gain knowledge. When we doubt him, we loose faith in His Word.
This is what Satan’s plan is for God’s followers.
He causes them to doubt and eventually judge God’s law.
It seems that’s where you are. You’re making determinations as to what God REALLY meant when he said thou shalt not murder (not kill)
You’ve convinced yourself that murdering an unborn child is acceptable in certain situations, that denouncing sin will offend someone, that defending our country is ungodly.
God’s Word and His laws are worth fighting for.
It’s a spiritual battle where Satan attempts to attack our values by causing us to set them aside in order to hurt the feelings of others.
Stop doubting and believe.
Abe
July 26th, 2005 at 12:34 amI think I’ve struck a nerve. Your anger indicates that you are taking this seriously.
Yes, I do have nerves. I am not a bump on a log like you. I also have a funny bone, and was laughing my ass of at you when I wrote that. So much for being angry and undeniable proof that you have the perceptive abilities of a lump of coal.
Wouldn’t “fool� be a better screen name for you?
Abe
Comment by Abe Noxious  July 25, 2005 @ 10:07 pm
Absolutely!
I’ll be fool, you remain the idiot!
FOOL, n.
A person who pervades the domain of intellectual speculation and diffuses himself through the channels of moral activity. He is omnific, omniform, omnipercipient, omniscience, omnipotent. He it was who invented letters, printing, the railroad, the steamboat, the telegraph, the platitude and the circle of the sciences. He created patriotism and taught the nations war — founded theology, philosophy, law, medicine and Chicago. He established monarchical and republican government. He is from everlasting to everlasting — such as creation’s dawn beheld he fooleth now. In the morning of time he sang upon primitive hills, and in the noonday of existence headed the procession of being. His grandmotherly hand was warmly tucked-in the set sun of civilization, and in the twilight he prepares Man’s evening meal of milk-and-morality and turns down the covers of the universal grave. And after the rest of us shall have retired for the night of eternal oblivion he will sit up to write a history of human civilization.
IDIOT, n.
July 26th, 2005 at 12:48 amA member of a large and powerful tribe whose influence in human affairs has always been dominant and controlling. The Idiot’s activity is not confined to any special field of thought or action, but “pervades and regulates the whole.” He has the last word in everything; his decision is unappealable. He sets the fashions and opinion of taste, dictates the limitations of speech and circumscribes conduct with a dead-line.
Our war on terror IS a holy war.
It is fought against people who want to defeat us because of the success that came to us as a result of our freedom… and because of our freedom to worship God our own way.
We aren’t fighting an eye for an eye. We aren’t fighting a nation, we’re fighting a group of people from many countries who believe their religion requires them to kill us.
This is like a war against a street gang, we can’t win it by turning the other cheek or preaching to them.
Our strengths didn’t come to us because we’re smarter or better, they were a gift from God.
God’s law is in our best interest.
He knows what happens to us when we drift from His word or take liberties with it.
Sick man.
July 26th, 2005 at 1:03 amFestus,
There so much you don’t understand that you can’t begin to understand how little you know.
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of understanding. Without it, you’re like a ship at sea without a rudder. You drift with the wind following wherever the hot air pushes you.
Consider this.
God is pro-choice.
He gave you the choice to accept or reject Him.
For those who choose to reject Him, He’s merciful enough to destroy them so they will not have to live in eternity by His laws, surrounded by those who love and honor Him.
AND so we don’t have to exist with people who are miserable for eternity.
Pretty remarkable isn’t it?
Abe
July 26th, 2005 at 1:31 amListen dipshit. I have been leading a rich spiritual life since my first NDE over 30 years ago, and I know more about what you think you believe than you will ever come close to learning in this lifetime. So ram your dark age bullshit back up the ass of subjective hell you dragged it out of and don’t presume to lecture me about things you can never learn in a book. In other words, STFU. I’m still not angry, but impatient with your ignorance and false spiritual pride.
July 26th, 2005 at 1:47 amMake that 40 years ago. The second near death experience was 30 years ago. I don’t really dwell on them that much. How many times have you been clinically dead? Other than your whole life so far, I mean.
July 26th, 2005 at 1:51 amBrother Festus said:
Absolutely!
I’ll be fool, you remain the idiot!
The Bible says:
Proverbs 26:11
As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions.
1 Corinthians 3:19
July 26th, 2005 at 1:52 amFor the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[ 3:19 Job 5:13] ;
Brother Festus said:
listen dipshit. I have been leading a rich spiritual life since my first NDE over 30 years ago, and I know more about what you think you believe than you will ever come close to learning in this lifetime. So ram your dark age bullshit back up the ass of subjective hell you dragged it out of and don’t presume to lecture me about things you can never learn in a book. In other words, STFU. I’m still not angry, but impatient with your ignorance and false spiritual pride.
I can tell from your post here that you lead a rich spiritual life, free from anger and hostility with a firm grip on your emotions, temper and a wonderful grasp of the English language.
Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his anger, but a wise man keeps himself under control.
Abe
July 26th, 2005 at 1:58 amGood job, Abe! At this rate, you will be able to gradumate to the TNIrV soon!
Proverbs 29:11
CEV
Don’t be a fool and quickly lose your temper–
be sensible and patient.
NIV
A fool gives full vent to his anger,
but a wise man keeps himself under control.
TNIV
Fools give full vent to their rage,
but the wise bring calm in the end.
THE NEW INTERNATIONAL READER’S VERSION
Reading Level: Grade 3.5
The New International Reader’s Version (NIrV, 1996) “is a new Bible version developed to enable early readers to understand God’s message. Begun in 1992 and co-sponsored by the International Bible Society and Zondervan Publishing House, the New International Reader’s Version is a simplification of the New International Version (NIV), today’s most popular translation of the Bible. ” (from the NIrV “Sample Booklet”).
THE CONTEMPORARY ENGLISH VERSION
Reading Level: Grade 5.6
The Contemporary English Version (New Testament, 1991, full Bible, 1995) “was begun in 1984 by the American Bible Society. The mandate for the ABS translation team was to craft a translation that was biblically accurate, reader friendly, and understandable even for first-time Bible readers. Among special concerns were ease of reading without sounding ‘childish,’ comprehensibility when read aloud, modern formatting, quality of style, and literary value. An international, interdenominational group of over 100, including translators, English language experts, and biblical authorities [comprised] the CEV translation team” (Thomas Nelson brochure). In general, it employs natural and uncomplicated English.
The NIrV was designed to make the Bible clear and understandable to early readers, and can be read by a typical fourth grader. For this reason, it is also of value to the millions for whom English is a second language. It intends to be distinguished by five fundamental characteristicsâ€â€readability, understandability, compatibility with the NIV, reliability and trustworthiness. It serves as a natural stepping-stone to the NIV when the time is right.
THE NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION
Reading Level: Grade 7.8
“The New International Version is a completely new rendering of the original languages done by an international group of more than a hundred scholars. These scholars worked many years and in several committees to produce an excellent thought-for-thought translation in contemporary English for private and public use. …
“The translators of the New International Version sought to make a version that was midway between a literal rendering (as in the New American Standard Bible) and a free paraphrase (as in The Living Bible). Their goal was to convey in English the thought of the original writers. … The New Testament of the New International Version was published in 1973, and the entire Bible, in 1978. This version has been phenomenally successful. Millions and millions of readers have adopted the New International Version as their ‘Bible.’ Since 1987 it has outsold the King James Version, the best-seller for centuriesâ€â€a remarkable indication of its popularity and acceptance in the Christian community. The New International Version, sponsored by the [International] Bible Society, … has become a standard version used for private reading and pulpit reading in many English-speaking countries” (Comfort, pp. 79-81).
Come back and let us know what you ever find in a Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek text, if you can find someone to read them to you.
July 26th, 2005 at 9:03 amHUAC,
All three versions said the same thing using different words.
Your point?
Abe
July 26th, 2005 at 9:34 amAside from the fact that this book of fairy tales wasn’t even written in King James’ english, just this. Now I’m done with you.
THE NEW INTERNATIONAL READER’S VERSION
Reading Level: Grade 3.5
THE CONTEMPORARY ENGLISH VERSION
Reading Level: Grade 5.6
THE NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION
July 26th, 2005 at 11:31 amReading Level: Grade 7.8
Here is a real Christian. You are a cultist moron who operates at the intellectual level of the books you read. You know the Trappists are closer to God than you will ever be. One just needs to taste the ale they make to know this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Merton
http://www.merton.org/
July 26th, 2005 at 11:36 amAbe…
‘you said: â€? I am not arrogant enough to believe that my faith is the precise correct faith that God ordained for us.â€?
If you don’t believe it, you can’t defend it.
Christ has revealed Himself to us. As we grow in faith we gain knowledge. When we doubt him, we loose faith in His Word.
This is what Satan’s plan is for God’s followers.
He causes them to doubt and eventually judge God’s law.’
So, where do you stand on the following things?
Transubstantiation? – Some Christians believe that the bread and wine actually turn into the body and blood of Christ. Others take it as symbolic. Are one group more or less Christian?
The Priesthood of all believers? – Some Christians believe that any Christian is capable of performing any of the duties of a priest, while other Christians belive that you need to be ordained. Some even believe that there are anatomical requirements for the priesthood. Do any of these groups fall outside your definition of Christian? Do you feel that only whichever option you believe in is correct?
Baptism? – Some Christians believe that full immersion baptism is a requirement to be a Christian, others believe that a Christening is all it takes, a third group don’t believe that there is any specific ceremony. Are these all Christians? Whose faith is correct?
Who should be allowed to take Communion? – Some Christians have claimed that children cannot take Communion because no children were are the last supper, I don’t know of any denominations which extend this to women for the same reason, but I wouldn’t put it past some radicals. Others argue that “suffer the little ones to come unto me” means that they can take Communion if they wish. Some denominations don’t think that anyone who isn’t part of their denomination should be able to take Communion. Which of these positions do you follow and does that make the others wrong?
You will notice that some of these positions are held by the Roman Catholic church, but I didn’t explicitly say Catholics. The reason for that is that even if you disagree that Catholics are Christians I know of other denominations that hold some of the same views.
Now, I can’t guarantee that my take on any of these viewpoints is correct. Errare Humanum Est. I believe that what I believe is correct, but I can see arguments for the other beliefs too. Call me unchristian if you want. But I don’t think that I could handle your level of dogmatic certainty.
Z.
July 26th, 2005 at 1:20 pmHUAC…
Yes, I would agree that Merton was a real Christian, although not the only one.
Z.
July 26th, 2005 at 1:21 pmZwack asked: “Transubstantiation? – Some Christians believe that the bread and wine actually turn into the body and blood of Christ. Others take it as symbolic. Are one group more or less Christian?”
Symbolic, Catholics, I believe, are of the other opinion.
The Priesthood of all believers?
Some believers are leaders, some are followers. We were called to minister to others, not for each to become a minister.
Baptism?
Paul explained that “works” do not make us clean, grace does.
Who should be allowed to take Communion?
Anyone who understands why they are taking it.
The answers were rather obvious
Abe
July 26th, 2005 at 3:22 pmCertainly not the only one Zwack. There are more of them than “cult boy” can count on his three toes.
July 26th, 2005 at 4:12 pmAbe,
The answers aren’t all that obvious to me, and can’t be too obvious as we don’t have the same answer to all of the questions.
Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Christians believe in Transubstantiation as do some, but not all, Anglicans. Lutherans believe that Christ is “in, with and under” the bread and wine. They don’t believe in Transubstantiation but instead feel that trying to explain it is disrespectful of the mystery of the sacrament. Now are you going to tell me that any one of these denominations is any less Christian?
I’m still not sure if you believe in the Priesthood of all believers. Ministry and being able to perform the sacrament are not necessarily the same thing.
Still the most important part of those questions, to my mind, was the part that asked “So are any one of these sets of beliefs more right than the others?” I assume as you picked some options that you believe that those are the CORRECT answers. I don’t have your certainty.
Z.
July 26th, 2005 at 4:53 pmThe answers were rather obvious
Abe
Comment by Abe Noxious  July 26, 2005 @ 3:22 pm
Translation: Uh, ummm… unh….. duh….
July 26th, 2005 at 7:36 pmZwack,
I don’t use the beliefs of other churches to determine what I believe.
There are so-called Christian churches who have gay clery (not just Catholics) and it doesn’t confuse me.
As far as transubstantiation, it’s not Biblical.
Christ also said the cup he used to served the wine was a new testatment. The old law had been fulfilled. The cup was symbolic. If some churches don’t “get” that, they are mistaken. Period.
I believe that the priesthood is reserved for anyone who has studied God’s word and can draw from it to instruct others with Biblical reference and example.
The Bible says that where two or more are gathered He is there.
Do you need a priest to give Communion? Not necessarily.
If people are gathered in God’s name and they decide to take Communion, it would be legalistic to say a priest or minister is needed or is doesn’t “count”. Christ’s ministry was against legalistic worship.
You asked: “So are any one of these sets of beliefs more right than the others?”
There are no degrees of wrong or right, what is important to God is our heart. This is how God judges a person.
Just as I don’t believe you’ll find people condemned for eating meat on Friday, I don’t thik you’ll find people condemned for the beliefs that were fostered upon them.
When an individual chooses to investigate God for themselves by reading the scriptures, the truth is revealed to them. The more you understand the scriptures, the more you begin to understand God.
Ask and it will be given to you, seek and you will find.
The Bible has been translated in many languages so believers can read it for themselves.
In ancient times, not everyone was educated enough to read and The Bible wasn’t readily available to everyone.
As Christians, we have a responsibility to read God’s Word. God tells us to prove all things.
If a church teaching doesn’t appear to be grounded in scripture, we have the ability to understand it for ourselves because the Bible is available to us.
Why do you seem so confused?
Abe
July 26th, 2005 at 9:25 pmComment by Susej
Translation: Uh, ummm… unh….. duh….
Is that your final answer Susej or did you want to use one of your lifelines?
Abe
July 26th, 2005 at 9:44 pmHUAC,
You must consider yourself an authority or you wouldn’t be commenting on this subject. Why haven’t you answered Zwack’s questions or added some enlightenment based on your own studies or scriptures?
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions.
Should we watch for your scriptual rebuttal here or were you airing your own opinion without any real understanding of the subject matter?
Abe
July 26th, 2005 at 9:57 pmcorrection:
Christ also said the cup he used to served the wine was a new Covenant, not a new testament. You probably knew what I meant but I thought I’d correct it anyway.
July 26th, 2005 at 10:00 pmIf the fool would persist in his folly he would become wise.
Prisons are built with stones of law, brothels with bricks of religion.
-William Blake
July 27th, 2005 at 1:06 amA few of history’s worst quotes from believers
Compiled by Jim Walker
http://www.nobeliefs.com/worst-quotes.htm
——————————————————————————–
…the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt…
-The author of Exodus describing the actions of the killer God in Ex. 12:29
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Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
-Author of 1 Samuel describing God’s instructions (I Sam.15:2-3)
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Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
-Psalm 137:9 (KJV)
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For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
-Paul [I Corinthians 11:8-9]
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Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
-Paul [I Corinthians 14:34-35]
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But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
-Paul (I Tim 2:12)
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Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
-The alleged Jesus in Matthew 10:34
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But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
-The alleged Jesus in Luke 19:27
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And I will kill her children with death…
-The alleged Jesus in Rev. 2:23 KJV
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It is not permitted for a woman to speak in the church, nor is it permitted for her to teach, nor to baptize, nor to offer [the eucharist], nor to claim for herself a share in any masculine function– not to mention any priestly office.
-Tertullian, (160?-220? C.E.), Adversus Valentinianos
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The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives on even in our times and so it is necessary that the guilt should live on, also. You are the one who opened the door to the Devil, you are the one who first plucked the fruit of the forbidden tree, you are the first who deserted the divine law; you are the one who persuaded him whom the Devil was not strong enough to attack. All too easily you destroyed the image of God, man. Because of your desert, that is, death, even the Son of God had to die.
-Tertullian, (160?-220? C.E.), The Apparel of Women
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Bow your heads to your husbands–and that will be ornament enough for you. Keep your hands busy with spinning and stay at home–and you will be more pleasing than if you were adorned in gold. Dress yourselves in the silk of probity, the fine linen of holiness, and the purple of chastity. Decked out in this manner, you will have God Himself for your lover.
-Tertullian, (160?-220? C.E.), The Apparel of Women
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For the preservation of chastity, an empty and rumbling stomach and fevered lungs are indispensable.
-St. Jerome (340?-420 C.E.)
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Nothing is so much to be shunned as sex relations.
-St. Augustine (354-430)
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And they who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, such are rightful owners of hell.
-Allah’s alleged words in the Quran, 5:10
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The only reward of those, who wage war against ALLAH and HIS Messenger and strive to create disorder in the land, is that they be slain or crucified or their hands and feet be cut off on account of their enmity, or they be expelled from the land. That shall be a disgrace for them in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a great punishment.
-Allah’s alleged words in the Quran, 5:33
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In front of such a one is Hell, and he is given, for drink, boiling fetid water.
-Allah’s alleged words in the Quran 14:16
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Kill them all, God will recognize his own.
-Arnald-Amalric, 1208 (when asked by the Crusaders what to do with the citizens of Beziers who were a mixture of Catholics and Cathars)
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We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides.
-St. Ignatius Loyola (1500)
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We come to conquer this land by his [King of Spain] command, that all may come to a knowledge of God and of His Holy Catholic Faith; and by reason of our good mission, God, the Creator of heaven and earth and of all things in them, permits this, in order that you may know Him and come out from the bestial and diabolical life that you lead…. Our Lord permitted that your pride should be brought low and that no Indian should be able to offend a Christian.
-Spanish conquistador, Francisco Pizarro to the Inca emperor Atahuallpa at Peru in 1532 (quoted from Jared Diamod’s “Guns, Germs, and Steel”)
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If a man is in open rebellion, everyone is both his judge and his executioner. . . Therefore, let everyone who can, smite, slay, and stab, secretly or openly, remembering that nothing can be more poisonous, hurtful, or devilish than a rebel. It is just as when one must kill a mad dog.
-Martin Luther (Against the Robbing and Murdering Hordes of Peasants, 1525)
——————————————————————————–
Whoever wishes to be a Christian, let him pluck out the eyes of his reason.
-Martin Luther (First Psalm Lectures, Luther’s Works, Vol. 11, p.285)
——————————————————————————–
Christ wants to slay reason and subdue the arrogance of the Jews…
-Martin Luther (Sermons on the Gospel of St. John, Luther’s Works, V.22, p.320)
——————————————————————————–
Whoever wants to be a Christian must be intent on silencing the voice of reason.
-Martin Luther (Sermons on the Gospel of St. John, Luther’s Works, V.23, p. 99)
——————————————————————————–
A woman has no control over herself.
-Martin Luther (Letter to Several Nuns, 6 Aug. 1524)
——————————————————————————–
We are at fault in not slaying them [the Jews].
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and their lies, 1543)
——————————————————————————–
For we must hold, that our mind never rises seriously to desire and aspire after the future, until it has learned to despise the present life. 2. For there is no medium between the two things: the earth must either be worthless in our estimation, or keep us enslaved by an intemperate love of it. Therefore, if we have any regard to eternity, we must carefully strive to disencumber ourselves of these fetters.
-John Calvin (Life of a Christian Man. Scriptural arguments exhorting to it)
——————————————————————————–
Who will venture to place the authority of Copernicus above that of the Holy Spirit?
-John Calvin, citing Psalm 93:1 in his Commentary on Genesis]
——————————————————————————–
The natural and proper timidity and delicacy which belongs to the female sex evidently unfits it for many of the occupations of civil life….The paramount destiny and mission of women are to fulfill the noble and benign office of wife and mother. This is the law of the Creator.
-Supreme Court, 1873, upholding an Illinois law which prohibited women from becoming attorneys
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If the bible had said that Jonah swallowed the whale, I would believe it.
-William Jennings Bryan
——————————————————————————–
You gotta save Christianity, Richard! You gotta!
-Loretta Young to King Richard (in the movie, The Crusades, 1935)
——————————————————————————–
Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord..
-Hitler (Mein Kampf, Chapter 2)
——————————————————————————–
A man does not die for something which he himself does not believe in.
-Hitler (Mein Kampf, Chapter 3)
——————————————————————————–
I can’t understand how all this can have happened, it’s enough to make one lose one’s faith in God!
-Eva Braun (during the last days with Hitler)
——————————————————————————–
Why, of course the people don’t want war… but, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship… voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.
-Hermann Goering, Nazi Commander, April 18, 1946 (Nuremberg Diary, by Gustave Gilbert)
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We have discovered the most terrible bomb in the history of the world. It may be the fire destruction prophesied in the Euphrates Valley Era, after Noah and his fabulous Ark.
-Harry S. Truman, in his decision to use atomic bombs on Japan, using Biblical justification (Diary, July 25, 1945)
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We, the Order of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, reverentially acknowledge the majesty and supremacy of Almighty God and recognise His goodness and providence through Jesus Christ our Lord.
-Ku Klux Klan creed (from the Constitution and Laws of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan )
——————————————————————————–
Mussolini: a gift from providence.
-Pope Pius XI
——————————————————————————–
This stranglehold has got to be broken or this country’s going down the drain.
-Rev. Billy Graham, in a 1972 conversation with Richard Nixon expressing his disdain for what he saw as Jewish domination of the media. (Nixon tapes)
——————————————————————————–
A woman cannot be a priest because our Lord was a man.
-Pope Paul VI, 1977
——————————————————————————–
The Jews are returning to their land of unbelief. They are spiritually blind and desperately in need of their Messiah and Savior.)
-Rev. Jerry Falwell (from his book Listen, America!)
——————————————————————————–
The idea that religion and politics don’t mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country.
-Rev. Jerry Falwell
——————————————————————————–
I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won’t have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!
-Rev. Jerry Falwell (1979)
——————————————————————————–
The Bible tells us that the unbelievers will go into endless punishment.
-D. James Kennedy (Why I Believe, World Publishing, 1980)
——————————————————————————–
Christ, who came meek and mild to save us from pain and suffering, was the One who talked more about hell than any other person in Scripture.
-D. James Kennedy (Why I Believe, World Publishing, 1980)
——————————————————————————–
Christianity teaches that the human race is depraved, fallen, and sinful.
-D. James Kennedy (Why I Believe, World Publishing, 1980)
——————————————————————————–
I believe this notion of the separation of church and state was the figment of some infidel’s imagination.
-Rev. W. A. Criswell (Dallas, 1984)
——————————————————————————–
I don’t know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
-President George H. W. Bush (the First), during an August 27, 1987 interview by Rob Sherman
——————————————————————————–
God has revealed to me that those doing battle for Allah and our country and meet death will immediately go to Heaven.
-The Ayatollah Khomeini (1984)
——————————————————————————–
Evolution is a bankrupt speculative philosophy, not a scientific fact. Only a spiritually bankrupt society could ever believe it. … Only atheists could accept this Satanic theory.
-Jimmy Swaggart (former pop preacher)
——————————————————————————–
Sickness and disease will be a part of life of this planet until Jesus comes back.
-Pat Robertson (Answers to 200 of Life’s most Probing Questions, Bantom Books, 1984)
——————————————————————————–
I know there are some Christians who believe that war and their participation in it are morally wrong. While I respect their views and must allow them to follow their consciences, I do not believe the Bible teaches pacifism.
-Pat Robertson (Answers to 200 of Life’s most Probing Questions, Bantom Books, 1984)
——————————————————————————–
Whenever the civil government forbids the practice of things that God has commanded us to do, or tells us to do things He has commanded us not to do, then we are on solid ground in disobeying the government and rebelling against it.
-Pat Robertson (Answers to 200 of Life’s most Probing Questions, Bantom Books, 1984)
——————————————————————————–
Those who are not Christians go to a place of suffering and torment called hell.
-Pat Robertson (Answers to 200 of Life’s most Probing Questions, Bantom Books, 1984)
——————————————————————————–
Government was instituted by God to bring His laws to people and to carry out His will and purposes.
-Pat Robertson (Answers to 200 of Life’s most Probing Questions, Bantom Books, 1984)
——————————————————————————–
When any civil government steps outside the mandate authorized by God Almighty, then that government does not have any further claim over its citizens.
-Pat Robertson (Answers to 200 of Life’s most Probing Questions, Bantom Books, 1984)
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I believe that he [Jesus] is Lord of the government, and the church, and business and education, and, hopefully, one day, Lord of the press. I see him involved in everything. And that’s why I don’t want to stay just in the church, as such. I want the church to move into the world.”
-Pat Robertson (Answers to 200 of Life’s most Probing Questions, Bantom Books, 1984)
——————————————————————————–
The Bible talks about everlasting fire and eternal darkness when it describes hell… We do know that hell is real and forever.
-Pat Robertson (Answers to 200 of Life’s most Probing Questions, Bantom Books, 1984)
——————————————————————————–
The heart of man is “deceitful and desperately wicked.”
-Pat Robertson (Answers to 200 of Life’s most Probing Questions, Bantom Books, 1984)
——————————————————————————–
Satan is a tool of God’s love in the sense that he forces us to see God’s loving patience.
-Pat Robertson (Answers to 200 of Life’s most Probing Questions, Bantom Books, 1984)
——————————————————————————–
The imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth.
-Pat Robertson (Answers to 200 of Life’s most Probing Questions, Bantom Books, 1984)
——————————————————————————–
If you go all the way back to the days just following creation, men lived nine hundred years or more.
-Pat Robertson (Answers to 200 of Life’s most Probing Questions, Bantom Books, 1984)
——————————————————————————–
He [Jesus] had the ability to walk through doors, to travel vast distances in an instant, and to ascent into heaven.
-Pat Robertson (Answers to 200 of Life’s most Probing Questions, Bantom Books, 1984)
——————————————————————————–
Therefore the spiritual standard for America would be the gospel of Jesus and everything in the Old and New Testaments.
-Pat Robertson (Answers to 200 of Life’s most Probing Questions, Bantom Books, 1984)
——————————————————————————–
Fornication is sex between two unmarried people.
-Pat Robertson (Answers to 200 of Life’s most Probing Questions, Bantom Books, 1984)
——————————————————————————–
My personal feeling is that oral sex is “against nature.”
-Pat Robertson (Answers to 200 of Life’s most Probing Questions, Bantom Books, 1984)
——————————————————————————–
There will never be world peace until God’s house and God’s people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world. How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy moneychangers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?
-Pat Robertson, (The New World Order, p. 227, Word Publishing, 1991)
——————————————————————————–
The strategy against the American radical left should be the same as General Douglas MacArthur employed against the Japanese in the Pacific . . . blast the individuals out of their power bunkers with hand-to-hand combat. The battle to regain the soul of America won’t be pleasant, but we will win it.”
-Pat Robertson (from Pat Robertson’s Perspectives, April/May 1992)
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Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.
-Pat Robertson
——————————————————————————–
The key in terms of mental ability is chess. There’s never been a woman Grand Master chess player. Once you get one, then I’ll buy some of the feminism…”
-Pat Robertson [According to the Chess Federation of the U.S. there were already two women Grand Masters at that time, both from Georgia. Since Robertson's gaffe, at least three more women became Grand Masters.]
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Satan . . . is as dangerous as we allow him to be. His primary weapon is deceit, and he uses it to prevent Christians from exercising the authority that is truly theirs in this world.”
-Pat Robertson (The Secret Kingdom)
——————————————————————————–
The inability or unwillingness to hate makes a person worthless. If we do not hate detestable things, the quality of our character is suspect. The Bible commands that we hate.
-H. A. (Buster) Dobbs, Editor of Firm Foundation magazine and Church of Christ preacher, from the June 1994 issue.
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You say what’s going to happen on this earth when the Rapture occurs? You’ll be riding along in an automobile; you’ll be the driver, perhaps; you’re a Christian; there’ll be several people in the automobile with you, maybe someone who is not a Christian. When the trumpet sounds, you and the other born-again Christians in that automobile will be instantly caught away, you’ll disappear, leaving behind your clothing and physical things that cannot inherit eternal life. That unsaved person or persons in the automobile will suddenly be startled to find that the car is moving along without a driver, and suddenly somewhere crashes. Those saved people in the car have disappeared.
-Rev. Jerry Falwell (broadcast excerpt on National Public Radio cassette Ronald Reagan and the Prophecy of Armageddon by Joe Cuomo.)
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Is he [the Antichrist] alive and here today? Probably. Because when he appears during the Tribulation period he will be a full-grown counterfeit of Christ. Of course he’ll be Jewish. Of course he’ll pretend to be Christ. And if in fact the Lord is coming soon, and he’ll be an adult at the presentation of himself, he must be alive somewhere today.”
-Rev. Jerry Falwell at a conference in Kingsport, Tenn., 14 Jan. 1999
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“Execute Murderers and Abortionists.”
-Bumper sticker on anti-abortionist John Burt’s car
——————————————————————————–
I can’t help it when what I do inspires somebody to go off the deep end.
-John Burt, anti-abortionist
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I talk to my only friend Jesus our “LORD”! I know “JESUS” understands my terrible desires and ect. I have tords little boys! And the main reason I murdered them little “BOYS”, is because our society is so “AGAINST” the fact of “CHILDREN-DOING-SEX” together or with anybody! I believe children should be “ABLE” to do sex! And I can “ARGUE” that all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court! “SEX” is a great “GIFT” that Jesus gave us all!!!!
-Freddy Goode, serial killer, in a letter to one of his lawyers [misspellings, his].
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If religious feeling is put in opposition to social change, then it does become an opium, but if it is joined to the struggle for social change then it is a wonderful medicine.
-Fidel Castro (Meeting With Evangelicals, 1990)
——————————————————————————–
A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on. However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.
-Ayatollah Khomeini, Tahrirolvasyleh, fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990.
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I want to be invisible . . . I paint my face and travel at night. You don’t know it’s over until you’re in a body bag. You don’t know until election night.”
-Ralph Reed, Director of the Christian Coalition, from the Virginian Pilot and Ledger Star, 11/9/91.
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I imagine every Christian would agree that we need to remove humanism from the public schools. There is only one way to accomplish this: Abolish the public schools.
-The Reverend Robert L. Thoburn
——————————————————————————–
I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good . . . our goal is a Christian nation. We have the biblical duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don’t want equal time. We don’t want pluralism…
-Randall Terry, Director of Operation Rescue, from The News Sentinel (Ft. Wayne, IN, 16 August, 1993.)
——————————————————————————–
God is on our side, and Satan is on the side of the United States.
-Saddam Hussein
——————————————————————————–
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners… But for that very reason, I was shown mercy so that in me… Jesus Christ might display His unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the king eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.
-Jeffrey Dahmer, convicted serial killer, in a statement to the court, Milwaukee, WI, February 17, 1992
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Suppose that you, a religious person, decide to rent out an apartment over your garage. Along comes a possible renter who seems to meet all of your requirements, except that he lets slip, in casual conversation, that he is a Satanist. . . . If you follow the law … then you must allow on your property activities that your religion forbids. You might even fear the hellfire. . . . As we have seen, the Supreme Court has made such a mess of the right to exercise one’s religion freely that there is little chance the claim for an exemption would succeed. So you would, in the name of nondiscrimination, be stuck with the Satanist.
-Stephen L. Carter (The Culture of Disbelief, pp. 136-137, 1993)
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My children, Michael and Alex, are with our Heavenly Father now, and I know that they will never be hurt again. As a mom, that means more than words could ever say. . . My children deserve to have the best, and now they will. . . I have put my total faith in God, and he will take care of me.
-Susan Smith, who drowned her two children, in her confession letter, Nov. 1994
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“…a noble practice which does honor to women.”
-Sheik Gad Al Haq Ali Gad Al Haq (explaining Mohammed’s law for removing part or all of a girl’s clitoris to reduce her sexual appetite)
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We should do unto others as we would want them to do unto us. If I were an unborn fetus I would want others to use force to protect me, therefore using force against abortionists is justifiable homicide.
-Paul Hill, killer of abortionist doctor
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We need to do more than win an election or win the House or win the presidency, my friends: we need to make this beloved country of ours God’s country once again.”
-Pat Buchanan at the Christian Coalition 1995 Road to Victory Conference, as reported in the October 1995 issue of Church and State.
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Our goal must be simple. We must have a Christian nation built on God’s law, on the Ten Commandments. No apologies.
-Randall Terry
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Both the Magisterium of the Church. . . . and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action. The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.
-Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994
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God will not give Japan and Europe the honor of bringing down the United States. This honor God will bestow upon the Muslims.
-Louis Farrakhan, 1997
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Before you call me crazy, these wheels will be seen all over America. You will look up one day and see them, and I don’t want you to be terrified. They’re your friends, black man.
-Louis Farrakhan who claims to have been brought to earth by a UFO
——————————————————————————–
Screw the Buddhists and kill the Muslims.
-Henry Jordan, South Carolina board of education (when another board member said the displaying of the Ten Commandemtns in public schools might offend students of other religions)
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“I am sorry for the people I killed and the people I hurt. The reason you don’t see any more tears is I have been forgiven by God.”
-Luke Woodham (the teenager who shot and killed two high school students and wounding seven, after his conviction on June 13th, 1998)
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” I know that Jehovah will take care of all of them in the next life. . .”
“Please know that I love Leigh Ann, Matthew and Mychelle with all of my heart. If Jehovah is willing, I would like to see all of them again in the resurrection, to have a second chance.”
-Mark O. Barton, the Atlanta killer of 14 people (including his family), in a letter that explains his feelings for his murdered wife and children
——————————————————————————–
I told all four [Congressional leaders] that there are going to be some times where we don’t agree with each other, but that’s OK. If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I’m the dictator.
-George W. Bush (the Second), in a news conference at the U.S. Capitol, from CNN news, 18 Dec. 2000
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I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way – all of them who have tried to secularize America – I point the finger in their face and say “you helped this happen.”
-Jerry Falwell (13 Sep. 2001 on the Christian Broadcasting Network explaining who helped in the World Trade Center & Pentagon tragedy.)
——————————————————————————–
This is America, God has sent one of the attacks by God and has attacked one of its best buildings. And this is America filled with fear from the north, south, east and west, thank God.
-Osama bin Laden, 7 Oct. 2001
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It’s been a fabulous year for Laura and me.
-George W. Bush, December 2001, three months after the World Trade Center attacks.
——————————————————————————–
My answer is bring ‘em on.
-George W. Bush, challenging militants attacking U.S. forces in Iraq, July 3, 2003
——————————————————————————–
Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.
–George W. Bush, unwittingly telling the truth (Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004)
——————————————————————————–
I know what I’m doing when it comes to winning this war.
–George W. Bush, on the Iraq war (11 Aug. 2004)
July 27th, 2005 at 1:11 amI’m not an atheist, but I will side with them against you and exhort them to exterminate you, if need be. If need be, I will nail you to a cross myself.
July 27th, 2005 at 1:20 amComment by: He Will Riot said;
I’m not an atheist
Judging from all the time you’ve spent documenting all the quotes that fuel your hate, it’s apparent you think all your anger is normal.
It isn’t.
It’s fueled by a force within that you clearly have no control over.
People are not supposed to be as consumed with hate as you are.
Ask yourself one question, what makes you happy?
Abe
July 27th, 2005 at 1:48 amAbe,
I am now VERY confused. You state that some people are definitely wrong because of their beliefs, then you state that God will judge based on what is in your heart and not because of beliefs that were “fostered upon them” (I think you meant Foisted here)…
So, in your book people aren’t Christians if they disagree with you on matters of faith, but God will accept them… This doesn’t mesh with your description of Catholics as not being Christian.
I personally do believe in the Priesthood of all believers. After all Jesus didn’t say “And I’m going to appoint some people to be Priests, and they will be more spiritual than the rest of you, and they will be accorded special privileges within the Church.”
He did say such things as “Go now and do likewise” which implies to me that ALL who believe in him are part of the Church, and should do what they believe is right.
I also believe that, even with divine guidance, Humans make mistakes, God will forgive us.
Z.
July 27th, 2005 at 11:59 amAsk yourself one question, what makes you happy?
People like you vanishing makes me happy. You are the same as the Taliban.
You are wasting your time with him, Zwack. He is convinced that what he has been fooled into believing is a “love of God” is an excuse to kill. Maybe this will help.
http://www.rickross.com/
http://www.theocracywatch.org/
July 27th, 2005 at 12:18 pmZwack,
You said;
I am now VERY confused. You state that some people are definitely wrong because of their beliefs, then you state that God will judge based on what is in your heart and not because of beliefs that were “fostered upon them� (I think you meant Foisted here)
I said that some religions are wrong in their beliefs, but I also know that each person will be judged on the condition of their heart and not on the manner in which they were taught to worship
You said:
So, in your book people aren’t Christians if they disagree with you on matters of faith, but God will accept them… This doesn’t mesh with your description of Catholics as not being Christian.
The Catholic Church is built around a belief in Mary and the saints, who they believe will intercede for them. They pray to saints, erect statues to saints and confess their sins to priests.
These practices are contrary to the teaching of the Bible.
You can’t say you are a Christ follower while teaching your flock to violate Christ’s teaching…
The flock is blind because they have trusted their teachers.
Many of the newer non-denominational churches that are opening are filled with Catholics who are hearing the Bible taught for the first time.
You said:
I personally do believe in the Priesthood of all believers. After all Jesus didn’t say “And I’m going to appoint some people to be Priests, and they will be more spiritual than the rest of you, and they will be accorded special privileges within the Church.�
We were all called to be minister according to our gifts.
We are not all gifted to the priesthood.
Some have a gift for serving, others prayer, music, financial. Car repair is a ministry in some churches… We minister according to the talents we were given.
Perhaps our disagreement is in the way we define priesthood.
If we are all priests, we wouldn’t need anyone to lead us.
All chiefs, no Indians.
You said:
I also believe that, even with divine guidance, Humans make mistakes, God will forgive us.
I agree.
Our mistakes however, can come with consequences.
While we can all be forgiven, the pain that is foisted (thank you) upon us as a result of our sin lives with us.
The Bible tells us to seek first His Kingdom.
We can do that by reading His Word and making a determination of faith as we are led by The Holy Spirit.
Religion is one of the few areas in life will people will blindly follow without question, yet it can lead to a better life if practiced properly.
We need to learn to listen to devine Guidance
Abe
July 27th, 2005 at 12:32 pmWe need to learn to listen to devine Guidance
Yes, we need to learn to listen the guidance of The Devine One. Andy Devine.
http://www.angelfire.com/ny/nyuk/devine.html
http://www.what-a-character.com/cgi-bin/display.cgi?id=982797095
I said that some religions are wrong in their beliefs
Belief, all belief, is the lowest possible level of consciousness the asleep human mind can sink to during it’s waking hours. Belief has nothing to do with God or the possible realization of such a phenomenon?
Don’t even debate the subject with this boob, Zwack. A subject you are widely conversant in, and a subject he is not even the slightest bit knowledgeable about. It makes you look the fool, and I know you are not. Personally, I don’t think he is even religious. I think he is just a parody troll, a right wing atheist.
July 27th, 2005 at 3:26 pmA song written about abnoxious and andy. (I think abnoxious is Buckshot).
http://www.science.uva.nl/~robbert/zappa/albums/One_Size_Fits_All/08.html
One Size Fits All
Andy
25 June 1975, 6:03 min.
——————————————————————————–
Frank Zappa (guitar, vocals)
George Duke (keyboards, synthesizer, lead vocals)
Napoleon Murphy Brock (flute, tenor saxophone, lead vocals)
Chester Thompson (drums)
Tom Fowler (bass)
Ruth Underwood (vibes, marimba, percussion)
Bloodshot Rollin’ Red (harmonica)
Johnny “Guitar” Watson (vocals)
Is there anything good inside of you
If there is, I really wanna know
Is there anything
Good inside of you
If there is
I really wanna
Know
Is there anything
Good inside of you
If there is
I really wanna
Know
Is there?
Is there any-thaaaang good inside of you
If there is, I really wanna know-woh-oh-oh-oh
Is there any-thaaaang good inside of you
If there is, I really wanna know,
really wanna know…
Something
Anything
Something
Anything
Show me a sign
If you don’t mind
Show me a sign
If you don’t mind
Do you know what I’m really telling you
Is it something that you can understand
Do you know what I’m really telling you
Is it something that you can understand
Do you know what I’m really telling you
Is it something that you can understand
Do you know what I’m really telling you
Is it something that you can understand
Andy de vine
Had a thong rind
It was sublime
But the wrong kind
Andy de vine
Had a thong rind
It was sublime
But the wrong kind
Have I aligned
With a blown mind
Wasted my time
On a drawn blind
Have I aligned
With a blown mind
Wasted my time
On a drawn blind
Oh Andy …
July 27th, 2005 at 3:47 pmWilly,
I am aware that I am not going to change Abe from what he is into something else, and that is not my intent. If it was I am wasting my time, and I am aware of that.
Abe,
Thank you for discussing these things with me in an open, honest and non-insulting way. While you are not going to convince me otherwise and I will not change your opinion, at least it helped me understand where you are coming from. Thank you for the polite discussion, unlike so many on here.
Thanks again,
Z.
July 27th, 2005 at 4:09 pmZwack,
I just scatter the seed, it’s not my job to water it.
July 27th, 2005 at 5:55 pmFestus;
Re: Zappa
Psalm 59:12
July 27th, 2005 at 5:58 pmFor the sins of their mouths, for the words of their lips, let them be caught in their pride. For the curses and lies they utter.
Festus,
Thank you for your concern that I may look like a fool. There is a long tradition of Holy fools, and I don’t mind being confused with a fool if that is what it comes down to.
Z.
July 27th, 2005 at 6:05 pmBrother Festus;
you said:
Don’t even debate the subject with this boob, Zwack.
Which means you’re having a hard time keeping up or the subject matter scares you. The option of ignoring us doesn’t occur to you, you want the subject matter stricken from your sight.
Then you said:
A subject you are widely conversant in, and a subject he is not even the slightest bit knowledgeable about.
Well I answered every question Zwack posed and invited you to join in to the discussion Festus. You didn’t, but it didn’t keep you from making a determination that I was incorrect… based on, I imagine, you’re total lack of knowledge on the subject.
but you went on:
It makes you look the fool, and I know you are not. Personally, I don’t think he is even religious. I think he is just a parody troll, a right wing atheist.
I think you inability to join in on the subject makes you look foolish Festus, especially in view of the fact that you had nothing whatsoever of any Biblical content to add.
Apply some logic here Festus, If I wasn’t religious, why would I bother to render an opinion on religion and where would I have obtained the knowledge?
The fact that I worship God, read His Word and apply it to my life affords me an understanding of his Word which I minister to others according to my gifts.
One of my gifts is recognizing foolishness when I see it.
Your comments, while seemingly brilliant to you, were inaccurate… and foolish.
Proverbs 26:12
Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.
Abe
July 27th, 2005 at 11:20 pmFestus,
Thank you for your concern that I may look like a fool. There is a long tradition of Holy fools, and I don’t mind being confused with a fool if that is what it comes down to.
Z.
Comment by Zwack  July 27, 2005 @ 6:05 pm
You are so right, Zwack. As someone who has studied the Kabbalah, and I don’t mean that phony bullshit Madonna is into, I can tell you that there is no higher place to be than that of the fool, but he doesn’t start out at the top, holding all the aces, he just ends up there. There are fools, and then there are fools.
July 27th, 2005 at 11:52 pmWell I answered every question Zwack posed and invited you to join in to the discussion Festus. You didn’t, but it didn’t keep you from making a determination that I was incorrect… based on, I imagine, you’re total lack of knowledge on the subject.
Quoting scripture is not answering questions. If I wanted to have a discussion with a book, I would buy one and have some moron read it back to me.
July 27th, 2005 at 11:54 pmI think Abnoxium said he moved to an eastern red state. $1000 says this is it.
http://christianexodus.org/
July 27th, 2005 at 11:58 pmApply some logic here Festus, If I wasn’t religious, why would I bother to render an opinion on religion and where would I have obtained the knowledge?
Good question. It’s some form of psychopathology. Basically you just crave attention, and are borderline personality. You vacillate from mildly to wildly delusional, but you are going to let Jesus heal you, so it’s OK.
July 28th, 2005 at 12:01 amFestus,
Proverbs 26:11
As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly.
I’ve not read one comment from you adding to the subject matter of this discussion.
Applying logic here, it’s obvious you crave attention from adults Festus. Even negative attention supplies your need.
Apparently your parents, friends and stuffed toys didn’t supply you the love or attention you desperately needed when growing up.
You can’t seem to get past that.
You need to immerse yourself in scripture to see if you can learn something about your creator.
God knows you heart and He has something to say to you Festus.
Psalm 59:12
For the sins of their mouths, for the words of their lips, let them be caught in their pride. For the curses and lies they utter.
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools [ 1:7 The Hebrew words rendered [ fool ] in Proverbs, and often elsewhere in the Old Testament, denote one who is morally deficient. ] despise wisdom and discipline.
For more information, you might want to read “The case for faith” by Lee Strobel.
http://www.faginfamily.net/barry/Papers/caseforfaith.htm
You haven’t done well defeating all of your anger, hatred and childishness on your own… don’t let your demons continue to make a fool of you.
Get to know God.
Abe
July 28th, 2005 at 1:35 amFestus,
Abe did answer the questions in between his bible quotes (which were being used as justification for his beliefs).
If you think that I am a fool, so be it. I think it is difficult to tell whether Nasrudin is a fool or not from a single story but when you take a collection of them he is obviously a wise fool.
The same can be said of many tales of Zen Masters. I didn’t say that holy fools were Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, or… I know of holy fools from at least those traditions.
For sheer offbeat humour with a moral I love the tales of the Hodja myself, in particular the one where he has been sentenced to death by the shah. Nasrudin persuades the Shah to give him a stay of execution of one year and in that time he will teach the Shahs favourite horse to fly.
One of his disciples visits the Hodja in his confinement and asks him why he said that he could teach a horse to fly. The Horse has been covered in mystic symbols and the Hodja is praying over it.
The Hodja replies “A year is a long time. In that year the guards could become lax and I could escape. The Shah might be deposed and it is customary for the new Shah to pardon all prisoners. The Shah might even have a change of heart and pardon me. Finally, if nothing else, perhaps the damned horse can fly.”
Z.
July 28th, 2005 at 2:51 pmZwack,
Your point is well taken. My apologies. Nasrudin was a great fool, but Nasrudin was also a Mullah, so he must have been a terrorist fool, at least according to Abe. I do recall that one about promising to teach the Shah’s horse to fly. I have been reading Sufi and Dervish tales for years. I commend you for your patience, I just can’t stand the smell of the vomit and the sight of Abe gobbling it up after he regurgitates it over and over again.
Preaching and Teaching
Mulla preached on fridays at the village mosque. One day having nothing to preach about sitting on the minbar he asked the congregation:
“Do you know the subject I am going to discuss today ?”
“No” said the people
“Then I refuse to preach to such an ignorant assembly. How could you not know given the events of the past week ?” asked mulla and left hurriedly.
Next friday he went up the minbar and asked:
“Do you know the subject of my sermon today ?”
People fearing a repetition of what had taken place a week before nodded and said:
“Yes yes, indeed we know”
“Well then. There is no point in telling you what you already know” said mulla and left.
On the third friday he ascended the minbar and asked:
“Do you know what I am going to speak about today ?”
Not knowing what to say some said yes and some said no.
“Then those who know can tell those who don’t” said mulla and left.
Orthodoxy and Heresy
“Nasrudin, is your religion orthodox?”
“It all depends,” said Nasrudin, “on which bunch of heretics is in power.”
July 28th, 2005 at 6:37 pmYum! Yum! Lap it up! Good Doggie! Sit. Beg. Roll over. Play dead.
“Thou Shall Not Ignore the Old Testament!�
New Testament Verses Which Demand Following the Old Testament and Law Contradictions:
I hear so many Christians now a days claim that the Old Testament is defunct for Jesus was the “lamb� to clear away its rules and regulations. This is just another bullshit scapegoat that Christians use to ignore the atrocities and bizarre laws commanded by their god. Their preachers spoon feed them that the Old Testament is no longer binding so that they can excuse the majority of evil that the bible promotes. I am so tired of Christians manipulating the scriptures so that they can assign a kinder nature to their God, that I have assembled a BRIEF list of verses which clearly show that the Old Testament is not to be ignored. Its laws should indeed be adhered to, for the New Testament demands it! After this section I shall list where the Bible contradicts itself concerning other laws.
1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.� (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.
2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. “It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17 NAB)
3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
3b) “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness…” (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)
3c) “Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.” (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)
4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 “Whoever curses father or mother shall die” (Mark 7:10 NAB)
5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.� (Matthew 15:4-7)
6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)
7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,� to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.� This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18
8) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,…” (John 1:17).
9) “…the scripture cannot be broken.â€? –Jesus Christ, John 10:35
Law Contradictions of the Bible:
10) Shall we obey the law? Romans 13:1-7 says quite clearly that Christians are to submit to the law and regard it as the institution of God. 1 Peter 2:13-14 “Submit your self to every ordinance of man … to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors.â€? Matthew 22:21 “Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s.â€? Also see Titus 3:1. Matthew 23:2-3 & Ecclesiastes 8:2 This leads one to assume that Christians must and should obey the law, yet look at these verses which contradicts what I just sited. Acts 5:29 “We ought to obey God rather then men.â€? Exodus 1:17-20 shows God punishing the midwives for following their rulers instead of God. Also see Daniel 3:16-18, 6:7-10, Acts 4:26 & 27, Mark 12:38-40, Luke 23:11, 24 & 33-35 which all say the law should be ignored. Now we know why Christians get away with their selective morality so often.
11) Should we steal? (Exodus 20:15 & Leviticus 19:13) Stealing is absolutely forbidden. Yet, Exodus 3:21-22, 12:35-36 & Luke 19:29-34 all promote stealing.
12) Should we judge? Jesus is quoted in Matthew 7:1-2: “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged.� Also see Luke 6:37 & 1 Corinthians 5:12. Now take a look at “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment� (John 7:24). Also note 1 Corinthians 5:12 & 6:2-4.
1 3) Should we covet? Exodus 20:17 says, “Thou shalt not covet . . . anything that is thy neighbor’s,� while 1 Corinthians 12:31 says, “Covet earnestly the best gifts.� So, are we or are we not to covet?
14) Is lying okay? Exodus 20:16. Proverbs 12:22 & Revelations 21:8 all say lying is forbidden. Joshua 2:4-6, Exodus 1:18-20 & 1 Kings 22:21-22 all support lying.
15) Can we kill? Exodus 20:13 says “thou shalt not kill�. Exodus 32:27, Numbers 31, and THOUSANDS of other verses show God commanding us to kill.
16) Can we own slaves? Leviticus 25:45 “Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy … and they shall be your possession… they shall be your bondmen forever.� Genesis 9:25 “And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.� Exodus 21:2 & 7 “If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing… And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.� Joel 3:8 “And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it.� Luke 12:47-48 [Jesus speaking] “And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.� Colossians 3:22
“Servants, obey in all things your masters.â€? So obviously the Biblical God thinks slavery is right, right? Just look at these: Isaiah 58:6 “Undo the heavy burdens… let the oppressed go free, … break every yoke.â€? Matthew 23:10 “Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.â€? (Also see Exodus 22:21 & 21:16) Let it be known here that pro-slavery Bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here. I simply do not have the room to post all of them.
17) What about Improvidence? Improvidence is enjoined in Luke 12:3 “Sell that ye have and give alms.â€? also in Luke 6:30 & 35 “Give to every man that asketh of thee, and of him that taketh away thy goods, ask them not again … And lend, hoping for nothing again, and your reward shall be great.â€? Also note Matthew 6:28, 31 & 34. Improvidence is condemned in I Timothy 5:8 “But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. “ Also see Proverbs 13:22.
18) What does the law say about anger? Ephesians 4:26 says “Be ye angry and sin not not.� Anger is disapproved in Ecciesiastes 7:9 “Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry; for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.� Proverbs 22:24 “Make no friendship with an angry man.� Also see James 1:20.
19) Are we to let our good works be seen? Matthew 5:16 “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works.� This contradicts verse Matthew 6:1 , “Take heed that you do not your alms before men, to be seen of them.�
20) Should we pray in public? 1 Kings 2:22, 54 & 9:3 shows the Lord is joyed by public prayer and listens intently. Matthew 6:5-6 condemn public prayer and command people keep it a secret.
21) Can we wear long hair? Judges 13:5 & Numbers 6:5 encourages people to grow their hair and insists it is a source of strength. 1 Corinthians 11:14 calls long hair a “shame�.
22) Should we circumcise males? Genesis 17:10 “This is my covenant which ye shall keep between me and you and thy seed after thee: Every man and child among you shall be circumcised. Clearly this demands circumcision, yet Galatians 5:2 says “Behold, I Paul, say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.�
23) Are there certain kinds of foods we should not eat? Deuteronomy 14:2-8 lists several animals that we are NOT to eat because they are “unclean�, “chew the cud� and “divide the hoof�. Yet Genesis 9:3 & 1 Corinthians 10:25 insists there is nothing we can’t eat. Romans 14:14 says: “There is nothing unclean of itself.�
24) Can we take oaths? Numbers 30:2, Genesis 21:23-24, 31, 31:53 & Hebrews 6:13 says that we can take oaths and encourages it. Matthew 5:34 says “swear (make an oath) not at all.�
25) Can we get married? Genesis 2:18, 1:28, Matthew 19:5 & Hebrews 13:4 all insist marriage is honorable. Marriage is disapproved and scorned in 1 Corinthians 7:1 & 7:7-8.
26) Can we commit adultery? Exodus 20: 14 “thou shalt not commit adultery.� Also see Hebrews 13:4. Now look at Numbers 31:18, Hosea 1:2 & 2:1-3 where adultery is advocated by God.
27) Can we drink alcohol? Proverbs 31:6-7, 1 Timothy 5:23 & Psalms 104:15 all encourage drinking and intoxication. Proverbs 20:1 & 23:31-32 discourage drinking and intoxication.
28) Do women have rights? Genesis 3:16 “And thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.� 1 Timothy 2:12 says a woman must not teach, remain silent and must be subjugated to her man. 1 Corinthians 14:34 & 1 Peter 3:6 both say that women have limited rights and are under control of their men. Judges 4:4, 14-15, 5:7, Acts 2:18 & 21:9 all tell of powerful women who were not subjugated by men and were not punished for their authority of men.
29) Should we obey our masters with usurped authority? Colossians 3:22-23 & 1 Peter 2:18 says we should. 1 Corinthians 7:23 “Be not ye the servants of men.� Also see Matthew 4:10 & 23:10 which say we should not submit usurped to our masters.
30) Was the law of the Old Testament destroyed by Christ’s crucification? Luke16:16, Ephesians 2:15 & Romans 7:6 says that the old law is no longer binding. Yet Matthew 5:17-19 and MANY other verses say that the old law is forever binding. If you want to see the many verses that command we follow the old law please consult the upper portion of this page.
31) Should we swear an oath? Numbers 30:2 “If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath…he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.� Genesis 21:22-24 & 31 “…swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me…And Abraham said, I will swear…Wherefore he called that place Beersheba [“Well of the oath�]; because there they sware both of them.� Hebrews 6:13-17 “For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself…for men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability ofhis counsel, confirmed it by an oath.� See also Genesis 22:15- 19, Genesis 31 :53, & Judges I 1 :30-39. So apparently it is okay to swear an oath, we even do this on the Bible in American courts. Just try and forget these verses: Matthew 5:34-37 “But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven…nor by the earth…Neither shalt thou swear by thy head…But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.�
James 5:12 “…swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.�
32) Do we keep the Sabbath? Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.� Exodus 31:15 “Whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.� Numbers 15:32-36 “And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day…And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.� Each of these contradict Isaiah 1:13 “The new moons and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity.“ John 5:16 “And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the Sabbath day. “Colossians 2:16 “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days.�
33) Should we make graven images? Exodus 20:4 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven…earth … water.â€? Leviticus 26:1 “Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone.â€? Deuteronomy 27:15 “Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image.â€? Okay, I got it I shouldn’t produce a thing in fear of making a graven image, but wait: Exodus 25:18 “And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them.â€? I Kings 7:15-16 & 23-25 “For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass…and two chapiters of molten brass…And he made a molten sea…it stood upon twelve oxen … [and so on]â€?
July 29th, 2005 at 6:16 amTasty Dog Vomit…
That first passage is explicit about the Ten commandments. It is not explicit about the rest of the Old Testament. Jesus himself said “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.” This is pretty dang explicit about a New agreement between God and Humans. While the ten commandments stand that doesn’t mean that the Levitical laws also stand. In fact Jesus seemed pretty outspoken about some of them. While he told the adulteress not to sin any more he didn’t follow the Levitical punishment of stoning her to death. Jesus broke the Sabbath on at least one occasion as well.
Given that the bible is inconsistent and that we are discussing a translation the comment about “the smallest part of the letter of the law” may have a meaning that isn’t so obvious in translation. Taking it as the literal exact word of God is a bad idea.
Jesus also turns round and berates the Jews in the Temple at Jerusalem with the wonderful argument…
“Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’?” John 10:34 In section 9 you quote only part of the following verse… The entire passage makes it clear that it is not exactly saying what you are trying to make it say.
“but Jesus said to them, I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?
We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them ‘gods’, to whom the word of God cam e and the Scripture cannot be broken  what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?”
Interestingly The New Living Translation limits the category of gods to “certain leaders of the people.” I wonder which translation Bush uses…
Other translations use the words Scriptures or Books instead of Law. It seems that the original word may have a dual meaning.
As for the rest of your posting. Yes, the bible is contradictory. So are many other books (both religious and not). The fact that there are contradictions between the Old and New testaments can be explained away by changes introduced by the teaching of Jesus. Contradictions solely within the Old or New Testaments can be explained as Human error, or errors in translation. The overall tone of the documents and divine guidance are what we should consider if we are to use the bible to help us choose how to live our life.
Of course even with divine guidance, we are only human and may be wrong.
Z.
I am not surprised that the writers of the epistles say “everything we say is divinely inspired and we are never wrong” but that doesn’t mean that I have faith in either the translations or the original author not to be mistaken. Taking the overall tone of the teachings of Jesus, rather than individual verses should give you the right idea of what God means if the bible is divinely inspired. Nitpicking over a translation of individual sentences that have been passed down for 2,000 years is a futile gesture, at least unless you are a theologian or have a hidden agenda.
July 29th, 2005 at 12:26 pmZwack,
I just scatter the seed, it’s not my job to water it.
Comment by Abe Noxious  July 27, 2005 @ 5:55 pm
He’s just jerkin’ off! Like me! I’m an Onanist, too! Turdblossom over here prays to St. Priapus! He worships Big Dick Cheney’s package!
July 30th, 2005 at 10:57 amUh, George,
July 30th, 2005 at 3:09 pmI think your “jerkin’ off” has caused some serious brain damage. Spare us the details when you crap your pants.
This story cannot die. We have the right to know what the Bush administration is up to. I’m sick of reading how many Marines die on a daily basis, for what, a lie! Disgusting. If Bush went to war with Iraq tweaking reports from Niger, we, as American’s need to impeach Bush, and the rest of his admins. should resign. Period!
August 5th, 2005 at 3:06 pmHere’s a joke realted to religion and politics that I just heard. I laughed for a few minutes over this one.
“Sunday morning, a mother went in to wake her son and tell him it was time to get ready for church, to which he replied, “I’m not going.”
August 5th, 2005 at 9:57 pm“Why not?” she asked.
I’ll give you two good reasons,” he said. “One, they don’t like me, and two, I don’t like them!”
His mother replied, “I’ll give YOU two good reasons why YOU SHOULD go to church. (1) You’re 59 years old, and (2) you’re the pastor!”
This is a joke I just heard, which is related to relgion and politics.
“Sunday morning, a mother went in to wake her son and tell him it was time to get ready for church, to which he replied, “I’m not going.”
August 5th, 2005 at 10:01 pm“Why not?” she asked.
I’ll give you two good reasons,” he said. “One, they don’t like me, and two, I don’t like them.”
His mother replied, “I’ll give YOU two good reasons why YOU SHOULD go to
church. (1) You’re 59 years old, and (2) you’re the pastor!”
Maria said:
I’m sick of reading how many Marines die on a daily basis, for what, a lie! Disgusting.
Maria,
What’s sad is that you’ve shut off all your reasoning ability in order to fuel your hate for George Bush and his administration.
If you remember, Saddam killed thousands of Kurds in his country using weapons of mass destruction. The mass graves of thousands are now being found in Iraq.
Again, thousands of people were killed by Saddam using weapons fo mass destruction.
You might be too young to remember the original war in Iraq in the early 90’s. As a result of the outcome, sanctions were placed against Saddam which he continued to ignore for 11 years.
The United Nations put into effect an “Oil for food” campaign whereby the funds received from their oil was “supposed to” go to help those Iraq citizens who were suffering.
Saddam Hussein illegally made billions of dollars while Iraq was under strict United Nations economic sanctions.
It has been described as the biggest financial scandal in history, and is seriously damaging the reputation of the UN.
We are now beginning to learn that the same countries in the U.N. that were against attacking Iraq- although they had ignored 11 years of sanctions, were receiving billions of dollars in kickbacks from the oil for food campaign. There decision not to attack Saddam was based on their greed.
You might remember that many people had told us that Saddam had WMD and must be stopped.
To refresh your memory Maria, here are some quotes from people who believed for years that something must be done.
“One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line.”
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
“If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction program.”
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
“Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.”
- Madeline Albright, Feb. 18, 1998
“He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.”
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb., 18, 1998
“[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.”
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998
“Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.”
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
“Hussein has … chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies.”
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
“There is no doubt that … Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Sadism continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.”
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, Dec, 5, 2001
“We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them.”
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002
“We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.”
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
“Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.”
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
“We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction.”
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
“The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons…”
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002
“I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force– if necessary– to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.”
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002
“There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years … We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.”
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct. 10, 2002
“He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do”
-Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002
“In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members .. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.”
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct. 10, 2002
“We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction.”
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002
“Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime … He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to Miscalculation … And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his
continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction … So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real.
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), January 23, 2003
As you can see Maria, the idea that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction was not one that was made up suddenly by President Bush or his administration. It was shared by Democrats and Republicans alike.
When we went to war with Iraq we knew that he had ignored sanctions placed against him by the U.N. for 11 years, he had led us to believe he had weapons of mass destruction, he had killed thousands of people in his own country with them, and he was building up his military.
We now understand that other U.N. countries who refused to help us bring down Saddam did so because they were receiving billions of dollars from him.
It is sad that our Marines are being killed in Iraq each day.
Sadder still is that we knew Saddam was a brutal killer. The countries in the U.N. who received kickbacks knew he was violating sanctions and they refused to stop him.
Don’t you think, using your reasoning skills, that if there had not been corruption in oil for food program, if those countries had not decided to profit from Saddam at the suffering of the Iraq people, and if all of the countries who had helped put the U.N. santions in place originally had joined us in the fight to bring down Saddam, our job would have been much easier?
You don’t mention any outrage for France, Germany or Russia whose actions ultimately helped to cause this war. Your only anger is leveled against your own country and the fact that our Marines are being killed because we’re fighting, in part, as a result of the actions of other U.N. countries.
You’ve read what the Democrats said regarding WMD. Do you know believe they were lying? If so, are you disgusted?
If you believe they were telling the truth, aren’t they expressing the same thoughts President Bush had when he chose to do something rather than talk about it?
You have the Internet available to you Maria, why not use it to learn the whole truth before attacking your own country
Abe
August 6th, 2005 at 10:57 am[...] …in the PlameGate department. First, Think Progress has the summary of a Bloomberg story claiming that Libby Lewis told Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald that he was told of Plame’s identity by Tim Russert of Meet the Press fame, a claim that Russert denies. In a serendipitous coincidence(?), our good friend Tom Maguire has just recently posted on what he increasingly believes is a press coverup. [...]
August 19th, 2005 at 9:50 pm[...] As for Libby, accounts indicate that he also called a few reporters (his friend Judy Miller is almost certainly one of them). He may be picking up a perjury charge according to a Bloomberg article this July. [...]
September 28th, 2005 at 2:17 pm[...] If Patrick Fitzgerald is unable to prove a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, Rove, Libby and others could still be charged with perjury if they lied to investigators. Today’s Washington Post floats another possibility: But a new theory about Fitzgerald’s aim has emerged in recent weeks from two lawyers who have had extensive conversations with the prosecutor while representing witnesses in the case. They surmise that Fitzgerald is considering whether he can bring charges of a criminal conspiracy perpetrated by a group of senior Bush administration officials. Under this legal tactic, Fitzgerald would attempt to establish that at least two or more officials agreed to take affirmative steps to discredit and retaliate against Wilson and leak sensitive government information about his wife. To prove a criminal conspiracy, the actions need not have been criminal, but conspirators must have had a criminal purpose. [...]
October 2nd, 2005 at 8:57 amThey surmise that Fitzgerald is considering whether he can bring charges of a criminal conspiracy perpetrated by a group of senior Bush administration officials. Under this legal tactic, Fitzgerald would attempt to establish that at least two or more officials agreed to take affirmative steps to discredit and retaliate against Wilson and leak sensitive government information about his wife. To prove a criminal conspiracy, the actions need not have been criminal, but conspirators must have had a criminal purpose. […]
Read more about this at http://prissypatriot.blogspot.com (blog search indictment) or http://citizenspook.blogspot.com (treasongate)
October 3rd, 2005 at 4:53 pm