Bush Busted
Bush Busted
The front page of the Washington Post today contains an explosive story proving once and for all that the White House knew Valerie Plame’s identity as a CIA agent was secret. Read a little further into the story, though, for another interesting — and damning — point:
[The secret State Department memo] records that the INR analyst at the [Feb. 19, 2002] meeting opposed Wilson’s trip to Niger because the State Department, through other inquiries, already had disproved the allegation that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger.
There it is – proof the White House knew in February 2002 that Saddam was not trying to buy yellowcake from Niger. That’s nearly a year before President Bush tried to terrify the American people by including that claim in his state of the union.
Busted.
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Busted. Um – ok. What can you do about it? Nothing. Next story please.
July 21st, 2005 at 8:13 amThat’s your answer, NeD? Sit back and take it?
July 21st, 2005 at 8:30 amBusted. Um – ok. What can you do about it? Nothing.
Those must be those legendary values we keep hearing about from Conservatives.
Interesting that NED doesn’t attempt to refute or deny the facts here (not without his trusty GOP talking points), but rather takes the angle of confidence (and smugness) in power.
He doesn’t care if Bush lied. He doesn’t care if laws were broken. He doesn’t care about anything this administration does, so long as they stay in control and save him from the “dangerous” liberals.
Newsflash: “Might makes right” is not a value.
July 21st, 2005 at 8:47 amHmmm, what can we do about it? Hold Mr. Bush accountable for the lives lost in the vendetta war? Nope. Get our asses to the polls in November and vote the morons out of the senate and house? YES, YES,YES!
July 21st, 2005 at 8:48 amChristy – you have nothing on Rove yet. If he did break the law, he will resign. Your 24/7 Rove watch explains why Democrats are totally irrelevant in the political debate.
And aren’t you just a little curious as to who Judy Miller’s source is? Highly doubtful that a NYT reporter would go to jail for a GOP operative. I would die laughing if it turns out her source is Wilson or some other liberal. You guys would be screwed in typical Rovian fashion.
July 21st, 2005 at 8:49 am#4 – like you did last November. Yawn…. Democrats are finished for at least two more cycles. Trashing every Administration official is not a plan to gain power. It’s one to stay out of it.
July 21st, 2005 at 8:51 amBush has pissed off a lot of people in various agencies, not least the CIA, and that seems to be the source of some of the info being reported lately. It can be useful to remember that what goes around often comes around, and it appears that Bush is getting some of the same medicine his minions and puppetmasters have been dealing out.
The White House press corp has become much more aggressive in recent weeks. Something’s up. At this point it’s not neccesary to do anything. Events will unfold, and we will observe.
Bush’s poll ratings are rock bottom low and sinking, even in the policy areas where he’s historically done well. If this trend continues – and I’m confident it will – there could be some nasty surprises for the GOP in the 2006 election cycle. Are Republicans ready to lose their congressional cojones?
July 21st, 2005 at 9:09 am#6 trashing the administration worked well for the republicans.
I like the nothing to see here move along response. I am guessing there is something to see.
July 21st, 2005 at 9:13 am#7 – just like you were going to take down the GOP last year. GOP picks up 3 senate seats and stays even in the House next year. You heard it hear first.
You cannot win an election on hatred alone.
July 21st, 2005 at 9:18 amYou cannot win an election on hatred alone.
That’s right, we can’t win unless the votes are counted honestly and unless those who are legally eligible to vote are allowed to, neither of which has been the case for the last six years.
July 21st, 2005 at 9:23 amHey, NeD – quite frankly, we know all we need to know about Rove. Bottom line, he’s guilty. His lawyers admit it, Matt Cooper admits it. Period. He was involved in spreading around Valerie Plame’s secret identity. I don’t care if his crime technically fits in the letter of the law or if he finds a loophole to get around it. My bottom line, and the reason I’m so angry about this, is he was involved in yanking this woman’s protection, of putting his own selfish, political wants ahead of the security of someone involved in serving this country. That’s not the country i want to live in. HOld him responsible.
July 21st, 2005 at 9:23 amRemember Clinton’s testimony before the Starr Grand Jury? “It depends on what your definition of ‘is’ is.”
Perhaps Rove and Co. have their own definition of what “secret” means.
July 21st, 2005 at 9:30 amBusted. Um – ok. What can you do about it? Nothing. Next story please.
Comment by The Northeast Dilemma  July 21, 2005 @ 8:13 am
He thinks George is a King or a Dictator! Like Hitler! You are an incredible asshole, and a fascist pig nazi!
July 21st, 2005 at 9:31 amYou are dead, NED. Wake up and die right.
July 21st, 2005 at 9:32 amAnd you keep recycling the old 2004 election memes and talking points. Those have expired. They are stale. Using them is harmful to your health.
July 21st, 2005 at 9:33 amOnly 39% of Republicans think Rove should not be fired. That will be down to 20-25% in a week. Say Goodnight, NED!
July 21st, 2005 at 9:35 amMissing gaggle transcripts from the WH site. Have at it, amateur sleuths. Find them here:
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-is-this-white-house-transcript.html
http://atrios.blogspot.com/2005_07_17_atrios_archive.html#112194940070541849
http://www.tpmcafe.com/comments/2005/7/20/16340/8649/44#44
July 21st, 2005 at 9:38 amSeems to moi that the bigger issue here – way beyond Rove – is that this is more proof that BushCo chose to ignore all US intel related to this matter – after he reference the British report in his SOTU speech – and decision to invade.
While it’s an intersting quote about Wilson’s potential mission – the bulk of the State Department memoranum that accompanied Powell and BushCo to Africa — was dedicated to detailed (again) why the State Department felt the Bristish intel was hokum. Further- at one point on that trip Rice claimed that the forged Italian Niger docs had been debunked in March by the IAEA.
The bigger lesson here: Loose lips sink ships. (And it’s best not to allow people to take photos while they’re tourturing prisoners.)
July 21st, 2005 at 9:41 amGiddy – say Rove has to resign? He resigns. Doesn’t change anything.
Christy – fine. Let’s forget about due process and execute everyone on death row while were at it. Nothing has been proven. AND as far as the kind of country I want to live in, I don’t like living in a country where the opposition calls the President a liar. Especially when the man they nominated supported the war too.
AND don’t think Joe Wilson is a matyr. He’s a liar and craves attention making him the perfect Democrat.
July 21st, 2005 at 9:44 amThis means impeachment. I’d vote for Wilson if he ran for President. He’s a hero. I hope someone like Clarke picks him as VP. Be cool to have Valerie as a First Lady someday. Whay aren’t you enlistinng NED?
July 21st, 2005 at 9:46 amI think I have you figured out NED. You and people like you hate those “terrists” and you’d swear allegiance to anyone who promised to hunt them down and kill them for you. And if that person told you your own mother was a “terrist” you’d turn her in and watch her die a happy man. You are one sick mutha____!
July 21st, 2005 at 9:51 amGiddy – I think that’s you. You are also a LIAR and a PIG.
July 21st, 2005 at 9:53 amOink! I’m a wild bore!
July 21st, 2005 at 9:55 amActually I agree with NED, there IS nothing new here… we already knew the Bush crime family ignores ANY evidence contrary to his theories..
Then Ambassador to Niger Mrs Owens-Kirkpatrick had already DEBUNKED the uranium sale story in her report to Washington. This was BEFORE Wilson was even in the picture. Maybe the State Dept memo was partly based on her evidence, in which case, yes, now we know that her report didn’t stall in the State Dept bureaucracy, it actually bubbled up to the White House.
July 21st, 2005 at 9:56 amSo NeD did you defend Clinton when he was being called a liar? I know you won’t answer this question but I have to as
July 21st, 2005 at 9:56 amYou cannot win an election on hatred alone.
—
Absolutely agree. So we’ll just have to make do with corruption, scandals, arrogance of power, extremism, irresponsibility and lawbreaking.
You, on the other hand, have to rely on lies and Bush Blindness, which seems to be rapidly wearing off most of the population (you excluded, of course).
—–
Christy – fine. Let’s forget about due process and execute everyone on death row while were at it.
—–
This isn’t about due process, which Christy made very clear in her post. This is about ethics. This is about the morality of leaking classified information for political gain, which Rove has evidently admitted doing, and which it appears increasingly likely others played a part in, as well. Most federal employees would be unemployed if they did that, regardless of whether they were eventually convicted of anything. I suppose you think Rove’s too priveledged for that?
July 21st, 2005 at 9:56 amChristy – you have nothing on Rove yet. If he did break the law, he will resign. Your 24/7 Rove watch explains why Democrats are totally irrelevant in the political debate.
Here we see NED admitting that the 24/7 Clinton watch was why the Republicans were totally irrelevant. Actually, the blowjob was irrelevant. The national security implications of the Rove watch are… irrelevant? Why are we at war then? I’m confused NED! Help us out here!
July 21st, 2005 at 9:59 amOn John S. point #2 – exactly. The equation is simple – Right-wingers, it’s about winning by hook or crook vs Left-wingers it’s about standing by principle even if it means temporary electoral loss. It’s as simple as that.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:01 amDarth, your assessment is fatally flawed. I hope you were being facetious. This is the end, of all of them likely. This is conspiracy, and no crime need to have been committed, other than conspiracy, and there is perjury and obstruction in any case.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:04 amIf you read the story, the memo in question makes it painfully clear that they all knew who Ms. Plame was, Wilson’s wife, and that she was deep cover. End of story.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:06 amAlso according the seattle times and other places Plames identity was considered secret.
seattle times article:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002393170_leak21.html
July 21st, 2005 at 10:09 amWhich assessment GGG?
July 21st, 2005 at 10:09 amThey’re going down, down, down, down.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:12 amAnd it’s about time.
This is not “nothing new”, Darth.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:12 am“Trashing every Administration official is not a plan to gain power. It’s one to stay out of it.”
The comment is hilarious comming from any conservative who lived through the 1990s.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:14 amThe depths that these people will sink to is nothing new. What is new is that they have been caught and Fitzgerald is acting like a career prosecutor, and not like a political, partisan hack, like the new SCOTUS nominee.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:15 amI don’t like living in a country where the opposition calls the President a liar. Especially when the man they nominated supported the war too.
That would be the war started on false info? And after starting a war for bogus reasons, attacking the patriotism of all who objected? How does supporting a war once we’re in one, compare to lying to to get us into it in the first place? Use a little logic instead anger, it might help.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:15 am“Trashing every Administration official is not a plan to gain power. It’s one to stay out of it.�
The comment is hilarious comming from any conservative who lived through the 1990s.
Comment by Selwynn  July 21, 2005 @ 10:14 am
I know! LOL! Any sentient being who lived through them!
July 21st, 2005 at 10:16 amIt may be new legal evidence, and I applaud all the journalists who are now turning this up. Finally it’s unravelling. I was just saying we already knew of the Bush crime family conspiracy.
But hey where were these journalists in 2002 when we could have STOPPED the war? I guess my frustration is showing. Even Dan Rather was all “Good morning, Baghdad” as the bombs dropped.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:19 amAll of the MSM was part of the conspiracy leading up to the invasion. Supressing/skewing/not reporting.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:25 am#38 – What is Clinton’s legacy folks? Family Leave Act – LOL!!!
UM – hi, are you people for real. Clinton’s legacy is the total destruction of the Democratic Party. Since he lied his way into office Democrats have lost nearly 70 House seats, 10 plus senate seats and the Presidency!!! He also left a nice recession and wonderful national security.
Admittedly, I loved trashing Clinton in the 1990s. But it’s obvious he was the best political ally I ever had. Please run Hillary in 2008.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:28 amAdmittedly, I loved trashing Clinton in the 1990s.
Thank you for admitting your hypocrisy NeD.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:31 amNow do the same Kranzy =)
July 21st, 2005 at 10:33 amLol I am not the hate filled delusional hypocrit. I will leave that to you.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:36 amWhy do the American people keep electing Republicans? I am currently reading Eric Alterman’s book, “When Presidents lie”, and since I am but 26, I am shocked and dismayed at how crooked the Reagan White House was. With the “body washing” and targeting of Nuns in El Salvador and Nicaragra, not to mention the lieing to Congress and the diversion of funds, I wonder if Americans have no memory or are just very forgetful?
I have little doubt that as we think this Rove/Uranium situation, it is probably doubly worse! I hate to admit it, but perhaps I do hate America or atleast the power given to already corrupt people.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:02 am#38 – What is Clinton’s legacy folks? Family Leave Act – LOL!!!
UM – hi, are you people for real. Clinton’s legacy is the total destruction of the Democratic Party. Since he lied his way into office Democrats have lost nearly 70 House seats, 10 plus senate seats and the Presidency!!! He also left a nice recession and wonderful national security.
Admittedly, I loved trashing Clinton in the 1990s. But it’s obvious he was the best political ally I ever had. Please run Hillary in 2008.
I would make a motion that from here on we make a concerted effort to ignore this increasingly irrelevant and shrill troll.
Does any one wish to second that?
July 21st, 2005 at 11:03 am# 45
Lets hope people have learned the lesson, again. I’d say this has been a good boost for progressive liberalism for another 30 years.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:05 amWould be best to ignore NeD. He does not appear to want a rational debate.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:11 amNortheast,
You have me there. My good judgement serves me well. I saw the tactics that were imployed. I called him a liar once he pointed the finger at Sadam. Where I’m from, you know when a man is lying. Ah, and he had.
Clinton didn’t leave a recession, if I recall. Remember the 2000 elections? One of the hot topics was — what to do with the surplus.
As for national security, well, compare the two.
The last thing this country need is an idealist politician. Politicians should not lead. Oh, how I’m a true Republican.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:17 amThis is worth a repost, since NED has had so many vapid responses to everyone else…
Interesting that NED doesn’t attempt to refute or deny the facts here (not without his trusty GOP talking points), but rather takes the angle of confidence (and smugness) in power.
He doesn’t care if Bush lied. He doesn’t care if laws were broken. He doesn’t care about anything this administration does, so long as they stay in control and save him from the “dangerous� liberals.
Newsflash: “Might makes right� is not a value.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:19 amNED,
July 21st, 2005 at 11:20 amAre you being serious with your comments or are you just trying to get people riled?
Did you get beat up a lot in high school? And get stuffed into lockers?
Have you ever been laid?
Do you spend your days in your parents’ basement wearing fatigues and eating cheese puffs?
Were you surprised yesterday to learn that Scotty was just a fictional character portrayed by James Doohan?
Are all your shirts brown?
#42: Admittedly, I loved trashing Clinton in the 1990s.
Thank you for admitting your hypocrisy NeD.
#43: Now do the same Kranzy =)
I’m not Krazny, or even Kranzy, but I’ll be happy to admit your hypocricy, Ned.
P.S. The English language uses something called a comma for a direct address. Look into it, Ned.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:28 amI love the foaming at the mouth and the hatred in this site. It’s very cool.
Hatred will not win elections for you people. Say What – say what?!??! I love the brown shirt comparison. If any group of people in this country are Nazis, it’s clearly you liberals. You kill babies in the name of choice, but sympathize with terrorists. No wonder you will never be in power again.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:36 amGary – liberals always resort to grammar when they can’t win an argument. Just call me Dan Quayle. At least he’s someone important. Ass.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:37 amThe only one foaming at the mouth here is you NeD. You were the one who suggested rounding up liberals and throwing them in jail. Care to comment how that does not make you a Nazi?
July 21st, 2005 at 11:38 amKranzy – I said it would serve you right if Bush did all the things liberals claimed he has. I would never want you in jail – I need you on the campaign trail to help ignite conservative turnout.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:41 amMore on Rove at
http://dearkitty.modblog.com/?show=blogview&blog_id=687309
July 21st, 2005 at 11:42 amNot true Ned, one of you posts a while back you stated you wanted all liberals rounded up as traitors and thrown in jail. Please answer the question you hate filled shit bag.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:44 amKranzy – stop being hateful. Whatever you think I wrote, I am telling you NOW I don’t think liberals should be thrown in jail. But, most of you ARE traitors because you want us to lose the war.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:46 amDamn!
The story blown off MSM’s radar with the latest London transit attacks.
But, that’s fine. The work of the Grand Jury continues and nothing is going to derail their work.
Rove will be calling to reserve a one-way Ryder truck by November and Bush will live out his lame duck presidency as a discredited leader in the Nixon tradition.
. . .
July 21st, 2005 at 11:52 amWhy do you people even respond to this guy? Wouldn’t it be easier and stress free (breathe people breathe!) if you just ignore him until he comes up with something cognitive (not likely given his post history)? And if he does, just respond to his argument? Or demand proof.
*grin*
July 21st, 2005 at 11:53 am“Busted. Um – ok. What can you do about it? Nothing. Next story please.”
Funny I had a boss say that to me once–and we got him fired. No one is untouchable. Justice, truth and law find their way if we afford them the opportunity.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:55 am#61 – good point.
#60 – no President that controls the WH and the senate when the Supreme Court is a geriatric ward is a lame duck.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:56 amNED,
July 21st, 2005 at 11:56 amI never said I was a liberal. And how dare you tell me I kill babies and sympathize with terrorists. I do neither.
My problem with you and your ilk is the depths to which you’ll sink to trash the other side rather than demonstrating how your own philosophy works better for the country.
You don’t care about the United States. You just care about winning elections. But what you don’t seem to understand is that people who win elections have to then govern. That part of the equation doesn’t seem to appeal to the new breed of conservative.
Foaming at the mouth? Hatred? You mean like the foaming and hating that went on when the Republican Party was out of power?
You seem to think nationalism and patriotism are the same thing. You should try reading some, NED. You might learn what it is to be an American.
#62 – justice and truth have prevailed. Liberals hate America, want us to lose this war to spite Bush and everyone knows it. That’s what the 2004 election was about.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:57 am“You kill babies” – Northeast “foaming-at-the-mouth” Dilemma
0.4% of the civilians killed in Iraq were between the ages 0-2. 9270 civilians were killed directly as a result of US forces acion.
So in other words, Bush killed about 37 Iraqi babies. And Saddam is eating cheese puffs.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:58 amHey NE Dementia, get a job. You spend so much time here, I have to assume you are either a slacking student in a computer lab or unemployed.
You’re input has deteriorated remarkably over the last week or so. Originally, you actually said things that weren’t a regurgitated talking point some other Talking Head of the Right had already said. Now that is exactly what your here posting.
Stop wasting ours and your time. If you don’t have an original thought, move on. Go to Redstate.org where you will be right at home.
See ya.
July 21st, 2005 at 11:59 amNed,
you are so blinded by hatred it is pathetic. Please for the love of god read something besides Ann coulter.
July 21st, 2005 at 12:00 pmSay What – you asked me if had ever been laid? UM – that’s a depth of political discourse that’s acceptable???
There is a new breed of conservatism that is striking back at the McCarthyist left wing. It’s ok to be pro-business and pro-life. Yet – we’re not stopping there. Liberals have divided this country and we are fighting back. AND winning, too.
July 21st, 2005 at 12:00 pmRedstate is great!! I admit I come here when I am bored to see what the political morons are thinking.
July 21st, 2005 at 12:01 pm“The wicked men shall reign but for a while. Then they will be cut down like the grass and be withered away.”
These are part of Max Romeo’s song, I am the Ressurection. The time will come when this administration will fall. It is only a matter of time. Nothing in this life is forever.
July 21st, 2005 at 12:01 pm“Since he lied his way into office Democrats have lost nearly 70 House seats, 10 plus senate seats and the Presidency!!!”
So why is it such a shock to you that we believe that a lying Bush will have the same effect on the Republican Party? You’re all over the place, talking out of both sides of your mouth.
July 21st, 2005 at 12:01 pmNED,
July 21st, 2005 at 12:03 pmIf you’re going to dish it out you’re going to have to take it, bucko.
#72 – There’s a difference – people are scared of liberals. You don’t want to win the war and that will trump any “lies” they think Bush might have told. Trust me – there is no chance in hell you get the WH back until Iraq is stable.
July 21st, 2005 at 12:03 pm“And aren’t you just a little curious as to who Judy Miller’s source is? Highly doubtful that a NYT reporter would go to jail for a GOP operative. I would die laughing if it turns out her source is Wilson or some other liberal. You guys would be screwed in typical Rovian fashion.”
You mean you don’t know NED? Miller had correspondence with a Brit scientist before he “suicided” himself. You know way back when? Name was Dr. David Kelly. Do some homework.
July 21st, 2005 at 12:05 pmNeD,
Admittedly I do not know much about this topic and I usually aviod posting on threads I don’t know about but I feel like I have to respond to your rants;
You haven’t made a single cohesive argument on this thread. Not one. Stop baiting everyone. If you have nothing constructive to say then I request you cease stirring the pot and see where the discussion goes unprovoked.
To my fellow progressives:
STOP TAKING THE BAIT! Show NeD how much better we are than Right Wingers by refusing to sink to their level.
July 21st, 2005 at 12:05 pm#76 – this isn’t a cohesive argument:
——————————————————
#60 – no President that controls the WH and the senate when the Supreme Court is a geriatric ward is a lame duck.
July 21st, 2005 at 12:07 pm#75 – is that official? Then, why is she in jail? My point is don’t take the bait on Rove yet. He has made you guys look like such fools in the past. Remember CBS?
July 21st, 2005 at 12:09 pmNED,
July 21st, 2005 at 12:09 pmAnd did my asking you if you’d ever been laid strike a little too close to home?
NeD,
I never made a premise of making my lecture sound like an argument. If you cannot tell the difference then that is your problem, not mine.
As for 60, that is not an argument. That’s a statement of opinion.
July 21st, 2005 at 12:10 pm#79 – yeah it did. It’s been a few weeks since I last saw your mother.
July 21st, 2005 at 12:13 pmGary Kleppe, when did you ever think that NED would want to know anything about correct English usage? He probably thinks that Grammar is what he should call his grandmother.
Z.
July 21st, 2005 at 12:18 pmthis be why drones like the northeast dildoenema are so valuable to da konswervatives, cuz not only do they enthusiastically engage in hardcore rightwing political fellatio, but they always swallow.
July 21st, 2005 at 12:21 pm*sigh*
July 21st, 2005 at 12:21 pm“Highly doubtful that a NYT reporter would go to jail for a GOP operative.”
About as doubtful as a NYT reporter pimping non-existent WMD for a GOP administration… Hey, what do you know…
“I don’t like living in a country where the opposition calls the President a liar.”
Personally, I don’t like living in a country where the President is such a blatant liar. And as someone upthread noted, that could almost be taken as a defense of Clinton. Double standards, anyone?
July 21st, 2005 at 12:33 pmDavid – Bush didn’t lie. If you want to continue to focus on what everyone was saying, do so at your own risk.
July 21st, 2005 at 12:36 pm#86
David – Bush didn’t lie.
see whut I mean? gobble, gobble, gobble…gulp!
July 21st, 2005 at 12:43 pmIf Bush lied, so did Kerry, Clinton, Biden, Albright, the French, the Germans – the list goes on. Stop having a debate you already LOST.
July 21st, 2005 at 12:47 pmKerry, Biden, Clinton, and the others made there decision based upon intel fixed to support Bush’s opinion to go to war.
July 21st, 2005 at 12:48 pm#78 Why is she in jail? Why do you think? Her source is dead for opening his mouth. Don’t be thick.
July 21st, 2005 at 12:53 pmNeD, were you asleep the last few years. Kerry and the others voted based on the information they had at the time. That can’t be debated. Surely you don’t disagree with that.
What we are talking about here is that the information was incorrect, and the Bush administration intentionally fixed it. That debate is far from over. P.S. Fixed = Lied.
How can you not see the difference?
July 21st, 2005 at 1:09 pmBoy, the trolls were up early and all over this first. Why debate NED. He is already lost to the dark side and his narrow view of the world will not be changed, it’s a waste of time to engage the politically blind.
NED, it is great fun to sit back and watch the Bush regime self-implod. The liberals don’t have to say a word, you conservatives have waited years to be in this position and after five short years in power your lies and lack of integrity is distroying your own dream of the promise land.
Enjoy your 15 minutes of fame, its about over.
July 21st, 2005 at 1:13 pm#86 – “Do so at your own risk”.
What was the risk again? We’re having a debate on an internet message board. The biggest risk is that I lose five minutes of my day reading your nonsense. A blind man can see that something unethical is going on with this administration, and questioning government is every American’s duty. If you feel differently, maybe this board is not for you.
July 21st, 2005 at 1:16 pmOf course Bush lied. Duh! But his lies were to Congress(it’s a felony to lie to Congress). We are not talking about perjury in the course of some trumped up civil suit. Uh-oh!
July 21st, 2005 at 1:32 pmI would ask NED this:
The fluff of your feathers in this matter is an outgrowth of your fear. But what’s that fear about? Why are you so afraid of a more thorough investigation into the Rove/Plame affair? If there is nothing there, then you have nothing to fear. You can in fact sit back and wait for Democrats to look like fools. But if our national security has been undermined by Rove and his ilk for the purpose of political gain then you should be just as outraged as we are. If Rove did manipulate the media to smear Wilson, if he did this to ensure support for a WAR, and if this does not outrage you then you have the most fluid and insupportable patriotism, fully deserving our greatest contempt.
I take it for granted that you consider yourself a true American. Isn’t a true American, what we call a genuine patriot, isn’t he or she a citizen who demands to know the truth about how our leaders govern this nation? This should NOT be a partisan issue. There is far and away enough evidence of collusion by this administration to hide and distort the facts to merit the most sweeping of investigations, and I would feel EXACTLY the same way if a Democrat president had manipulated facts to lead our nation to war.
Here is where we challenge your capacity for independent thought. Are you an administration insider? I doubt it. Thus, you have no better handle on the truth than anyone else. Yet if you prejudge the outcome to exonerate Rove because you have some explicit knowledge not available to the public, then tell us exactly what that information is. If you do not have that information yet still deride any desire for more information then you can be nothing but a Republican hack, a plant, a lock-step footsoldier for administration talking points. If this is the case, and so far you appear in every way to be another clone from the machine, then what relevance does a single word you say have to any THINKING person? Answer: Zip, zilch, none and nada.
Without a demonstration of flexible neurons capable of thinking for yourself or showing that your loyalty is to this nation first and not to your party leaders you come off as a mental robot, a pre-programmed automatic responder. Your hackneyed and authentically inane comments free of any verifiable or useful information are intended to do what? Annoy us? I don’t see that succeeding. So what then? Change our minds? Not a chance. So what is your purpose? Your inability to step back from your Bush/Rove adulation is a tearjerker of the first order and we watch in amusement as well as pity as your intellectual fish flops on dry land.
Try to be a real American for once. Accept that smoke comes from fire and that in the case of Rove the air is thick with both.
July 21st, 2005 at 1:38 pmHere’s another question for NED and all his fellows:
Do you believe that O.J. Simpson was guilty of murder, even though a jury acquitted him? Just answer that one simple question with a yes or a no.
July 21st, 2005 at 1:42 pmWhat saddens me is that I think “real” republicans do have some points that we would be all too happy to compare our points of view. ned doesn’t represent them at all. He represents the vapid, rush limbaugh I’ll buy anything that rush says fringe which is the dimwitted idiot fringe.
Actually, and I know there is gonna be alot of folks here who disagree with me, but I thing traditional republicans share many of our values. I’m talking about the government NOT intruding into our lives when it doesn’t have to, fiscal responsibility so that we leave our kids something other than a huge credit card (national debt) bill, environmental respect (Teddy Roosevelt) and tolerance of others who are different. The new breed of idiot repubs (ned, that is you to a T) has brought the level of discourse down to gradeschool crap.
I would think they would tire of being used like pinatas by their “leaders” but they are so into the us vs. them that they seem to have forgotten the actual stuff we are trying to talk about. Too bad for all of us….
July 21st, 2005 at 1:46 pmYeah, there’s no debating an extremist who’s only knowledge is how to kill babies without remorse.
I think we should seek the death penalty in this case and we’ll let Dillema, Lyle and Fake do the honor.
I doubt they’ll get much opposition and again America will be united.
Gotta go, gotta show to do but wanted to stop in and gloat that Bushco has been caught red handed.
Patrick Fitzgerald for Prez!
votetoimpeach.org
July 21st, 2005 at 1:46 pmThe bottom 5 governors are all Repugnicans.
http://atrios.blogspot.com/2005_07_17_atrios_archive.html#112196670535331303
July 21st, 2005 at 1:49 pmThis series of events is exactly why extreme partisan politics is detrimental to the United States as a whole. Thomas Jefferson warned against partisan politics, as did Julius Caesar. Yet history repeats itself, again and again.
July 21st, 2005 at 1:50 pmThese events are solely due to a group of people who committed acts of treason for personal gain. The acts of treason have been duly admitted.
The acts of treason cause(d) widespread terror on a global scale. By definition, these folks are also then, “terrorists.”
These people are for the most part, “noncombatants,” as well.
What does the US currently do with, “noncombatant terrorists?” Hmmm…Oh yes, they lock them up in places like Guantanamo, sans trial.
Furthermore, I don’t think any US citizen containing normal faculties wishes for failure, with regard to the blunder in Iraq; It is that we are acutely aware that we, “failed” when we began this endeavour. The failure has already occurred. It is time to mend.
To mend, it will take change…from the top down. By change, I’m not advocating Democratic partisan politics. By change, I mean eviscerating the way politicians get funding, and removing rabid fundamentalism.
If enough people feel the gut-wrenching need to overtake foreign lands, and impose foreign ideals…Maybe, just maybe they should consider doing such on a private basis…just move there when you’re done.
Thanks to Mikey and Justin – for attempting to elevate the discourse. Of course NED doesn’t know how to do that himself. I love how abortion ALWAYS gets mentioned when they want to discredit the liberals. In my experience, most liberals would prefer contraception… I suggest that we all preface our replies to NED with the tribute to Dan Akroyd, ” NED, you ignorant slut…” and see how long he hangs out. Then we can get back to it.
July 21st, 2005 at 1:54 pmI think Miller is being paid off big time. Three months in jail? The proverbial cakewalk. She will be ultra-rich with book and movie deals and speaking engagements when she emerges, let alone any incentives she may be getting for playing mute.
Interesting about her connection with Dr. Kelly, first I have heard of it and definitely a player in the theories!
Besides, isn’t “McCarthyist left wing” a complete oxymoron? As opposed to the regular, garden variety moron that is NED…
July 21st, 2005 at 1:56 pmHey Kindness, I second most of what you say. I have a pal who was an insider in the Nixon and Reagan administrations. He’s an old school Republican, post-civil rights era not beholden to the earlier segregationist tendencies, an environmentalist, a believer in privacy rights and a devotee of fiscal responsibility. He has always voted Republican. He hates Bush with a passion.
Although I’m a lifelong Democrat and liberal, I applaud the existence of a thoughtful opposition party to restrain any trend toward extremism on the left. Yet that thoughtful opposition is missing in action. The childish and churlish behaviors of the Bush administration would be comical if they were so deadly and destructive.
People do tend to overlook the history of the Republican party. In Lincoln’s day they were the party of abolition and Democrats were against abolition. In those days it was the Democrats who were all about state’s rights (the right to own slaves having primacy) and it was the Republicans who believed in the judicious use of federal powers. Following Reconstruction there was a real movement in the Republican party to become the frontmen for industry and elite. In the 1930s the Republicans were all about isolation and undermining the New Deal. They didn’t want to confront Hitler and did everything they could to block FDR from taking us to war. They are no longer isolationist, at least with regard to the use of our military, but they still crave the end of the New Deal.
Many Republicans prior to WWII cozied to Hitler because he was good for business. George Bush’s grandfathers both conducted business with Nazis even after we had declared war against Germany, having to be stopped by an act of Congress. It is true that Teddy Roosevelt was a genuine environmentalist and even Nixon did some good in this regard. But the modern Republican party primarily grew out of a reaction to the Civil Rights era. In the face of Democrat support for ending segregation, Republicans siphoned millions away from the Democratic part during the 1960s by appealing to racist mindsets. The south, historically solidly Democrat, shifted en masse to become a Republican bastion because Democrats and not Republicans wanted to give blacks an equal footing.
The foundation of the modern Republican party is made of repugnant elitism, the elitism of the racist and the elitism of the wealthy. It long ago ceased to be the party of the people. Any overview of the years since Lincoln will demonstrate to even the least observant that the tenets of the two parties have been completely swapped. The best word to describe the modern Republican is this: SELFISH.
The me-first and you-never Republican greed makes them the worst kind of citizen and the most foul patriot, the kind of parasite who drains the weal of the nation for short-term, personal gain. Another way of saying it, zeroing in on the most rabid right-wingers, is they are traitors. They think of themselves only and care not about the long-term fallout of their gluttony.
July 21st, 2005 at 2:11 pmClandy, very nicely stated. I have exactly the same observation of just about all of my Republican friends – selfish. Fits them to a T.
July 21st, 2005 at 2:26 pmHere Here, Clandy!!! Excellent overview; I could not have said it better myself. Let’s stop the nation from turning into a giant Wal-Mart.
July 21st, 2005 at 2:43 pmThat was good Clandy.
I will say that sales pitch that repubs use to gain new members is both current and backwards at the very same time.
Let me explain. It has seemed to me that part of the pitch for new members was that “if you are one of us and vote like we do, you too will one day be totally rich and in a position of power”. I’ve actually had co-workers tell me they are republicans along these lines. The hey me-too people who think they are going to get in on a gravy train. That is the current part. By selling to folks self-intersts they mislead them into thinking they will one day be any of that.
The backwards part is just that. The policies put in place by the CURRENT republican party throw largese at the already wealthy while at the same time making it more difficult for the poor & middle to move up the ladder and claim their own. But the bozo’s fail to see they are getting hoodwinked the whole way. Who knows, maybe it’s a pride thing not being able to admit you were wrong about something or got scammed.
Unfortunately, we live it right now. In my mind, I don’t necessarily think we should be putting the greater good ahead of the individual (although I could argue that we should) but we should at least be putting the greater good at the same level as our own interests. Somehow our society has devolved into one huge crass completely materialistic and selfish mass of people walking around with blinders on.
OK – off my soapbox. I’m leaving & will try to think good and positive thoughts. Later all.
July 21st, 2005 at 2:44 pmKindness, you’re not alone in your thoughts. Nicely stated.
July 21st, 2005 at 2:50 pmGoing back to Na Gael’s comment, there’s a key element stated that must be pursued. It goes to the heart of our dysfunctional political system. It is how our campaigns are financed. Campaigns MUST be financed entirely from public funds. Lobbying must be restricted on the Hill. This will hurt liberal institutions but it is far more odious to Republican supporters, i.e. corporations and the wealthy, which is why they fight it tooth and nail. We have got to end this cycle of paid-for politicians. Having influence debts upon entry to office undermines any politician’s ability to work for the people and ONLY for the people. It will also bring into the political fold people who may not be multi-millionaires but may be best qualified for the job.
At any rate, our entire system of governance pushes to the forefront the people who are least connected to the populace, those spoon-fed elites on both sides of the aisle who do not understand at a gut-level how hard it is for the average American to make headway in life, although Democrats and liberals by and large supersede their privileged upbringing because of a better grasp of empathy.
Now anyone who thinks George Bush is a “man of the people” should understand that Bush has never, not for one millisecond, feared that he might go hungry or feared that obstacles would be placed in the way of his attainment of wealth and power. He has always, since day one, been coddled by his self-same elites.
Here’s a great tidbit about Bush, the man of the people. When he owned the Texas Rangers he would often invite VIP guests to sit in his private box to watch the games. A friend of mine was an executive for Tandy Corp. and Bush invited him to sit in the box. It wasn’t relevant to Bush what my friend’s politics were. All Bush knew was that my friend was a corporate executive and that was all Bush needed to know. This was in 1998 and Bush’s full run for the presidency was still gestating. While sitting in the plush accomodations my down-to-earth friend asked one of the attendants stationed to serve the guests for a beer. The attendant kept calling my friend “sir.” Well my friend hates to be called sir so he told the attendant to call him by his first name. The attendant got very edgy and said he would be fired by Bush for getting familiar with a guest. He told my friend that he had to call all male guests either sir or “master.” Master? My friend was shocked. He waited until there was no one else around and then he coerced the attendant into calling him by name, wanting to equalize their shared humanity. Now that they were on friendlier and more easy-going terms, my friend asked if he could get a beer out of a glass-fronted fridge in the room. Suddenly tense again, the attendant went back to calling my friend “sir” and said that it was not allowed. He could get a beer from downstairs but only the owner could get a beer from that fridge. My friend asked if he meant George Bush. The attendant said yes. Now what’s the point of this? George Bush says he stopped drinking years ago, the same time he found Jesus. Yet here was an attendant in 1998 saying that this beer was for George Bush. Taking a page from Bill Frist, my video diagnosis is that Bush’s radically inoperative syntax is the result of brain damage from drinking that continues to this day.
What more examples of Bush’s snooty elitism? Recall the recent anger Bush had toward a film crew daring to sit on the furniture in the Oval Office, getting petulant and sour and acting as if this was HIS furniture.
Bush is a snob, a fake cowboy and an upper-crust elite who hides his blueblood credentials behind a veneer of stupefaction, that deer-in-the-headlights smirk that makes him appear to the general public as an “Aw, shucks” man of the people. George Bush, the man, doesn’t know one damn thing about what it means to live in the real world and all of his fantastical ideals and elite-serving, cabalistic actions bear this out.
July 21st, 2005 at 2:55 pmEDUCATION:
I’ve said it before: The Republican party in ALWAYS attacking intellectuals is an anti-knowledge faction. They always talk about being pro-education yet they fight to keep public schools underfunded and especially to keep minorities from getting an adequate education, which is a blatant abettance of racism. This is not some new tack. The Republicans have been roadblocking education for decades. You have to ask why they want an uneducated populace.
The reason is simple. Education trains the mind to think critically and to weigh all aspects of an event to discern truth from disparate clues. Education creates a citizen capable of cogent argument, a person who might understand the real effect of Republican policies. This person, who will have the skills to concretely question Republicans and to see behind their sloganeering, is a real danger.
Inarguably, a lack of education creates a ceiling to economic improvement. Who could dispute that? This keeps workers in low-paying jobs because their options are limited. Since these jobs barely allow a worker to scrape by, little energy is left to this worker to focus on issues that have no immediate bearing on their lives or that seem too arcane to grasp. A lack of education causes an apathy toward policy that is beyond their ken. They don’t understand what the fuss is about and struggling to get by, they have little time to search the media for all sides of any argument. They detach themselves from the critical process.
It is this kind of voter most susceptible to sound-bites and to being told in simplistic terms what to think. That is the kind of voter Republicans crave, someone who has been so hobbled in their intellectual development that their fastest avenue to public participation is to let others do their thinking. So Republicans package what they wish these folks to think into easily digested blocks, always laced with a heavy dose of threat. Someone is coming to get you, someone is coming to steal your money, etc., etc., and these dangerous “someones” are always supported by the “intellectual elite” and the “liberal media.”
The constant threat Republicans offer up to those lacking full education is more loss; i.e. illegal immigrants will steal their already horrendously low-paying jobs (even though corporations love illegals because they accept sub-minimum wage pay). Other threats offered is that Democrats will tax them to the hilt to pay for the protection of a small minnow or that they will prevent these workers from getting better jobs because they block tax breaks for the wealthy who will naturally be inclined to create more and higher paying jobs.
Republicans rarely present a positive path. They are the party of fear-mongering because a fearful populace is most easily controlled and swayed. Even better to have this same populace under-educated.
When education is offered by Republicans it is structured to excise ideology and empirical fact that runs counter to Republican philosophy. The plan is to sow permanent doubt against liberal beliefs. So evolution might be true, but creationism might also be true. Vouchers for private and parochial schools are meaningless to the poor, urban worker. This parent will have to find some way to ship their child to an outlying school every single weekday, assuming that child even gains entry in the face of so much competition for scarce classroom seats. On the face of it, it is clearly cheaper and more productive to equalize classrooms statewide, so the child in an urban school gets the same education as a child in the suburbs. Republicans know that school vouchers will only play to the middle and upper class, those who already have options for decent educations. Since the Republican party has generally written off the minority vote, at least until that group reaches some critical voting mass, they are actually trying to convert to their way of thinking more and more middle and upper class students through the voucher system.
All you have to do to understand the truth behind Republican anti-knowledge is to listen to how often Bill O-Reilly, Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh harangue against intellectuals. Where liberals embrace education as a leveling force, Republicans fear that same leveling because it will affect their bottom line. Smarter workers will be able to more effectively stymie corporate greed and they will be less quick to support Republican initiatives. They will also pay attention to those issues far longer than Republicans would like. Their whole modus is to spit out some program couched in the most glorious hyperbole, furiously attack and squelch any criticism and outlast the American attention span. By the time the full damage of these Republican programs comes to light, the American public has been dealt a new issue to worry about.
I understand that every president claims to be an “Education president” and in this regard leaders of both parties have shame to bear for not keeping that promise. But as we venture forth into this new century we have got to understand that our nation cannot become another Switzerland, merely a mover of money. We have to create new manufacturing. We have to again be the vanguard of technological revolution. This will never happen if we do not promote far-reaching and thorough education, especially in the sciences. Deny some inner-city kid a complete education, thereby relegating that child to a less than fully realized potential, and we will rob ourselves of a potential Einstein. We can’t accept that lost opportunity. Not only is it the right thing to do, the American thing to do, it’s just good business.
Whoever we choose to support for the next presidential run, it is our duty to grill into that candidate our resolve that he or she follow through on making education a top priority for the entire duration of his or her term.
July 21st, 2005 at 5:16 pmThis bolg has a crap load of republican’s posting here, but when i go to their blog’s i dont see many democrat’s, why is that.
July 21st, 2005 at 8:38 pmThat’s because the majority of Republican blogs don’t allow any posting whatsoever.
And when Democrats do post on the ones that allow it, their posts generally get deleted.
July 21st, 2005 at 8:40 pmKevin,
As John noted, above, conservative blogs don’t usually have comments enabled. It’s a “courage” thing.
Oh, and I wouldn’t be terribly surprised to find that many of the wingnut trolls who frequent lefty blogs are actually being paid to do so.
And yet, they’re still getting their asses kicked in online organization and activism. I’m becoming more and more convinced that this is a medium that just doesn’t work for conservatives, who would rather have someone tell them what to think (e.g. talk radio) than carry on open discussions in which their ideas might actually be challenged.
July 21st, 2005 at 9:10 pm[...] already had disproved the allegation that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger.” Posted on: July 21, 2005 • Filedunder: [...]
July 21st, 2005 at 11:44 pmHere’s What Keeps the Smile on Rove’s Face.
July 22nd, 2005 at 11:11 amOf course he conspired to defame Wilson. The evidence has apparently been muddied enough to get him off on that charge. He will likely get nailed about lying to the grand jury.
In any event, by the time cahrges are laid, the trial held and conviction arrived at, it will be 2008. Guess who Bush will pardon, if the need be?? So what does Rove have to fear??? He has a guarantee of waltzing into the sunset with George W.
Waltz into the sunset they may, but we will follow. Justice will be done.
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:58 pm#114 not if W is impeached
July 22nd, 2005 at 3:28 pmWhat can you do about it??? Try THIS:
John Dean, a former Counsel to the President of the United States, wrote in FindLaw, “To put it bluntly, if Bush has taken Congress and the nation into war based on bogus information, he is cooked. Manipulation or deliberate misuse of national security intelligence data, if proven, could be ‘a ‘high crime’ under the Constitution’s impeachment clause. It would also be a violation of federal criminal law, including the broad federal anti-conspiracy statute, which renders it a felony ‘to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose.’”
July 24th, 2005 at 7:37 pm