McCain’s Mistake
McCain’s Mistake
This morning on ABC, George Stephanopoulos asked Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) about the Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement (a.k.a. SF 312), which was signed by Karl Rove and every other member of the administration with a security clearance. McCain argued that Rove may not have violated the agreement because when he leaked Valerie Plame’s identity it could have been an “honest mistake”:
STEPHANOPOULOS: …Do you believe that this [Classified Information Nondisclosure] agreement should be abided by?
MCCAIN: I do, but that also implies that someone knowingly revealed…
(CROSSTALK)
STEPHANOPOULOS: No, this covers negligent disclosures.
MCCAIN: Again, I don’t know what the definition of negligent — if you make an honest mistake, that’s one thing, if you do something without knowledge that you’re violating or being negligent, et cetera.
Actually, the nondisclosure agreement makes no exceptions for “honest mistakes.” Rather, Karl Rove had an affirmative obligation to find out whether Plame’s identity was classified or not. From the agreement Rove signed:
I understand that if I am uncertain about the classification status of information, I am required to confirm from an authorized official that the information is unclassified before I may disclose it…
Rove is required to abide by this provision whether learned Plame’s identity from a secret government document or a journalist.
(Crooks and Liars has the video)
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McCain is just trying to get in good with the administration so he can have their support when he runs in 08. It’s pretty pathetic for someone who supposedly has so much integrity.
July 24th, 2005 at 8:19 pm“Just say yes, John.”
July 24th, 2005 at 8:30 pmThe hard right will use McCain & stab him in the back when it suits them. I’m surprised that he doesn’t see that.
I respect him and all but it does make me question the integrity of his judgement.
July 24th, 2005 at 8:33 pmMcCain dropped napalm and cluster bombs on North Vietnam during the undeclared war in Vietnam. Why would anyone believe anything he’s said. He has never acknowledged that he delivered a hideous death (burning by napalm) to thousands of innocents North Vietnamese civilians.
July 24th, 2005 at 8:42 pmJust one question, why would a mere “political advisor” need this kind of clearance? At the time of the leak, Rove was just that a political advisor, not dep. chief of staff, so what purpose would it serve to give this man security clearance?
July 24th, 2005 at 8:59 pmYe has it absolutely right. This notion that McCain is a voice of integrity is nonsense. He is a war criminal.
July 24th, 2005 at 9:08 pmTHanks Bill – I often wonder how a war criminal like McCain could rise to such heights, but then I’m reminded of nazi Germany and I stop wondering.
July 24th, 2005 at 9:28 pmI think John McCain is just getting old, perhaps as Reagan did. Mr. McCain represented himself and this Country well while in the custody of the North Vietmanese. He has served his Country and the State of Arizona well up until the present. He has just blown any chance at the Presidency. He must erroneousy consider there is more support from the Corporate owners of Bush than the true Americans regardless of party. Sorry, John. You got my last vote last November!
July 24th, 2005 at 9:42 pmIt all depends on what the definition of honest is, and what is the definition of mistake anyway? and while we’re at it, what is the definition of definition? and why am I here? What is here anyway?, Why am I talking?, Who am I ?, Wo are you? It all depends on…etc.
July 24th, 2005 at 9:55 pmI fail to see the distinction between the Nixon war in Vietnam and the Bush war in Iraq. They are either both good or both bad as they were both started for political advantage, rather than in response to a threat to this Country. Don’t cite the “Terrorist” threat for if that were true we would be in Saudi Arabia and Mecca now instead of Iraq and Baghdad. It took a few years to bring down Nixon. Bush will suffer the same fate for the same reasons. He is not above the law and it doesn’t take a polygraph to find a liar. He is not a crook just as Nixon was not a crook. Let’s get to the inevitable and come September we can go back to the NFL.
July 24th, 2005 at 9:58 pm“Just say yes, John.�
This is an incomplete list of folks who have publicly supported Karl Rove and/or dismissed the CIA as putting too high a regard on Plame’s classified status. I email them frequently to express my concern with WH behavior.
Rep. King, Peter (R-NY-3rd)
July 24th, 2005 at 10:07 pmSen. Hutchison, Kay Bailey (R-TX)
Sen. Cornyn, John (R-TX)
Sen. Coleman, Norm (R-MN
Rep. Blunt, Roy (R-MO-7th
Sen. Graham, Lindsey (R-SC)
Sen. McCain, John (R-AZ)
Sen. Roberts, Pat (R-Ks)
McCain is a war criminal, as can be proven from his bombing missions over North Vietnam during an undeclared war. Bush is a war criminal as will be proven by his lying to COngress. JOhnson was a war criminal when he concocted the reasons for invading North Vietnam (Gulf Of Tonkin), Clinton is a war criminal, which would be harder to prove but could be if an accurate look at the bombings of Iraq in and out of the no fly zones during his presidency could be made.
July 24th, 2005 at 10:18 pmIf someone could find a presidential candidate who has the integrity to NOT be a war criminal, I’d be happy to vote for that man or woman. But I dare say it would be near impossible in the USA as it stands today.
July 24th, 2005 at 10:19 pmMinnesotans to Norm Coleman – you’re days in Washington are numbered… even Republicans around here will take Wellstone’s body (bless his soul) over you, CLOWN!
July 24th, 2005 at 10:20 pmAnd what is all this fuss about outing a CIA agent. It’s infighting amongst the spies. And here everybody is weighing in on one side or the other. This is just like the CIA battle that brought down Nixon. Nixon was taken down by CIA insiders.
July 24th, 2005 at 10:22 pmThis CIA battle between the Wilson’s and the Bush/Cheney’s is like the battle between Nixon and the Hughes faction – it’s the CIA/mafia/cuba group fighting the CIA/eastern elite/yale group – with Bush JR caught in between two lovers so to speak. And we are just bystanders, paying the bill of course. The taxpayer always foots the bill as these spies fight in grand style – at the Watergate, a luxury high rise, or in other equally luxurious watering holes in DC.
July 24th, 2005 at 10:25 pmIs there a post somewhere with all of the representatives and senators e-mail addresses?
July 24th, 2005 at 10:29 pmFor a man who should have my respect, McCain does not. After the lies and misery piled upon him, his wife and family by the Bush/Rove team, it is beyond me why he even remains a Republican much less a Bush apologist. He should have stood up to them and their lies, their disrespect, their unfounded innuendo, but he backed down and made a deal with the devil. He should read Faust.
July 24th, 2005 at 10:41 pmMarie
July 24th, 2005 at 10:46 pmMcCain made his deal with the devil when he dropped napalm on innocent people from 30,000 feet over North Vietnam during an undeclared illegal war.
I opposed the Viet Nam war too, but who started that one? We can go all the way back to Eisenhower. Continued by Kennedy. Extended by Johnson. Lengthened by Nixon. And finally lost.
July 24th, 2005 at 10:52 pmIt was a national disgrace, as well as a horror. But I don’t have the heart to stab a person who spent 5 years as a POW — Bush has no heart, nor Cheney, nor Rumsfeld — those chicken hawks are pretty cavalier with today’s soldiers.
I do no respect McCain today because he has sold out — he joined the enemy.
“I fail to see the distinction between the Nixon war…”
How is Vietnam “the Nixon war”? Only a person who mindlessly blames Republicans for anything they don’t like could say something so asinine.
July 24th, 2005 at 10:53 pmMarie
July 24th, 2005 at 10:58 pmAnd you called me nasty. Yet there you go again with a very violent verbal allusion – the “stabbing” allusion. And in another post you talked about choking the president I believe. Marie really, try to keep your comments to something less nasty. It sounds so troll like.
And Marie
July 24th, 2005 at 10:59 pmEisenhower didn’t start the Vietnam war. Go back and re read the cointelpro manual with Gramma and get your facts straight.
McCain knows that if he runs again on 08 he would be very difficult to beat (I hate to admit it after all he’s done to harm this country by supporting the Bushies), I suspect that he not only desires the current administrations support but that Karl Rove would be a very valuable asset if he had the smear king on his side. I believe he’s is willing to do anything to win the Presidency and so he has, as was suggested earlier, sold his soul. As for napalm and Vietnam, while it may be true, he will NEVER be viewed by the majority of Americans as anything but a war hero since he spent those years as a POW. That will be one of his strenghts in an election.
July 24th, 2005 at 10:59 pmEisenhower did get us involved in Indochina. Man, the poor right wing trolls are in full panic mode. The media isn’t backing off Plamegate and they know they are doomed. They got no memos to forge. Go forge some memos, girls.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:02 pmJay
July 24th, 2005 at 11:02 pmThe only reason McCain will “NEVER” as you say be viewed by the majority of American as anything but a war hero even though he dropped napalm at 30,000 feet on innocent people in an undeclared war, is because Americans like to deal in delusion as most people do. It’s easier to believe he’s a war hero than a war criminal, that way we don’t have to share in his guilt but can instead share in his glory.
Ye is a drunk troll, He’s arguing with Gramma who posted on another thread, not this one. Their desparation is palpabale.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:04 pmYe, I did a word search of this page, and you’re the only post that used the word “nasty”.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:04 pmHud or is it Marie – I’ll just call you MarieHud, or Marhud for short
Kennedy brought troops into Vietnam, Eisenhower did not. KEnnedy began with the CIA putting what were referred to euphemistically as “advisors” into Vietnam. They were Special Forces – Green Berets. But of course you wouldn’t know that cause it was not included in the cointelpro manual you have in front of you.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:05 pmYe, if you really want to get right down to it, it’s part delusion and part broken media. Unfortunately, the majority of Americans get their news and information from Big Corporate media outlets and talk radio (90% of which is rightwing spin)….it’s a dangerous reality if you like democracy…..but it’s the truth.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:05 pmPriscilla
July 24th, 2005 at 11:06 pmThis has carried over from another thread where Gramma, Hud and Marie started attacking me because they didn’t like myh opinions about Bill and Hilary so they started calling me nasty, an idiot, a traitor and other assorted things as well as troll.
This attack from Hud, Gramma and now Marie brings back memories of when Bill was dropping bombs in Kosovo and there were some Dems that could be pretty vicious in protecting the slaughter going on there when it was done by a Dem. They don’t like it when people apply the same rules to Dems as to Repubs.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:08 pmhttp://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/MAAG2.html
Americans who served in Indochina and Vietnam first were political, economic, and military advisers to the French, who returned to Indochina at the end of World War II. As Herring emphasizes, using the best of secondary scholarship on this period of early commitments in Vietnam, our involvement was largely economic in nature and we moved gradually, during the Truman and Eisenhower administrations, toward deeper commitments. Herring reports American military aid reached, between 1950 and 1954, more than $2.6 billion.
The chief means of our involvement, during the First Indochina War, was through the advisory apparatus known as Military Assistance and Advisory Group (MAAG), first known as MAAG Indochina, and through the military’s volunteer forces known as Special Forces. All involved were “advisers” rather than combat troops. Along with political, diplomatic, and economic advisers, these advised the French in their war against the Vietnamese, known as the First Indochina War.
A political basis for early U.S. commitments was Public Law 597 (June 30, 1952). This law, known as the “Lodge Bill,” provided the military with authority to enlist volunteers known as Special Forces. The army had actually already begun this process under its own regulations, and there was an historic background to our use of unconventional warfare operations and forces.
Ye is a right wing troll.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:08 pmI haven’t heard enough from Ye to confirm what he is, so I’ll ask. Ye, are you a supporter of the Bush administration?
July 24th, 2005 at 11:09 pmDon’t listen to Ye, he is here to sow dissension, and he’s not quite up to the task. He’s pretty clumsy at it.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:10 pmCheck the thread below this.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:10 pmHey Janitors, you wouldn’t happen to know a guy that used to post here that went by SJS would you? :)
July 24th, 2005 at 11:10 pmJay
July 24th, 2005 at 11:11 pmNo. Why don’t you ask Marie that. She’s the one who wants to support McCain.
OK, I was going to say that if you were a Bush supporter and you were trashing McCain than you would be a hardcore right winger. I didn’t think it jived since you were denouncing war crimes, usually conservatives don’t go down that road.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:13 pmJanitors
How am I a right wing troll if I say that Eisenhower didn’t send in advisors. How does that equate. Yet Marie says she’d like to support McCain. I don’t get how you come to those two different conclusions.
In none of my posts have i ever supported either Democrats or Republicans. ANd that’s why i’m being attacked. Because i view both parties as a disease equally. I see no difference. I watched Johnson cause the deaths of 50000 and I watched Nixon widen the war to Cambodia and Thailand. I hated both of them equally.
And I’ll be damned if anyone is going to call me a troll because I can’t stomach bill and hilary anymore than i can the bush family.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:13 pmNo comment :)
July 24th, 2005 at 11:13 pmTo gramma, hud, marie et al who think i’m a troll because i will fight the national security democrats who want to stay in iraq and whose policies threaten my son’s life – because i will fight them as hard as i would fight bush – i say to hell with you
July 24th, 2005 at 11:15 pmIf she wants to support McCain, that’s her business. At least she’s up front and genuine about it. You (Ye) are as sketchy as the John Birch Society.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:15 pmAnd Gramma/hud
July 24th, 2005 at 11:17 pmI was tear gassed in DC protesting the war in Vietnam when Johnson was in power. And I’ll be tear gassed again when i protest against bush or hilary. I don’t give a good god damned which wolf in sheep’s clothing sits in the white house.
Ye, I made this analogy in a previous post.
If you own a store and you go on vacation you can ask the guy that just robbed the store to mind it or you can ask the guy that held the door as the robber took off. If you have the guy that held the door mind the store, while it’s not ideal (hey they’re the only two options) at least you aren’t guaranteed to be robbed. That’s my view on the D’s and R’s. I think the Dems are weak but at least they’re not actively (some of them anyway) trying to destroy the opposition party and our democracy.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:18 pmHud
July 24th, 2005 at 11:19 pmUp front and genuine. You wouldn’t know what that meant. Why are you convinced i’m a troll? Be specific. Cause i said eisenhower didn’t bring in adivsors. You think i give a rats ass about eisenhower?
Say something hud – put up or shut up
July 24th, 2005 at 11:20 pmWere you for the intervention in Afghanistan?
July 24th, 2005 at 11:21 pmDo you want another republican in the White House?
Is your only issue isolationism and non-intervention in any and all cases?
Ye, why do you believe that we are in Iraq?
July 24th, 2005 at 11:22 pmThe war is not the only issue. There are many issues that bear on the survival of this Democracy.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:22 pmhud, I thought we lost you…good to know you are still here.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:23 pmHud -
John Birch Society?
Where the hell did you dredge that up from? Nobody’s mentioned John Birch Society in years. That’s a good smear. How about minute men. Why don’t you say i’m a minute man. Or maybe i’m a closet gay who’s trying to bring down all you national security democrats who only have the love of your country at heart while you send my son away to fight your stinking war.
You make me sick.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:23 pmTell us why you are a Progressive. Tell us what “Progressive” means to you.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:23 pmI am an extreme liberal, but I must take issue with two points made here. First of all, John McCain is not a war criminal for using napalm in Vietnam, any more than my grandfather was for firebombing Japan in WWII. “Declared” or “undeclared” is utterly irrelevant when you’re there in battle, shooting, being shot at, taken prisoner, and tortured. Blame the government, all of it, for refusing to declare the war, and blame the government for refusing to leave when we had the chance; don’t blame the soldiers fighting and dying, most of whom did so against their choice. And before you go around demonizing Nixon, you should really look at what the presidents had been doing in general since 1940. Nixon committed his crimes with the CIA/FBI, etc. because Johnson had already set them up to operate that way in his administration. Nixon’s main problem was that he was neurotically paranoid, to the chemical-imbalance level (posterchild for Paxil!), and that drove him *slightly* (not lightyears) farther than his predecessors in terms of corruption. Nixon just got caught. I doubt the Bush administration will be as stupid (headed as it is by much of the remnants of the Nixon administration) this time around. His corruption will only get proven *after* he leaves office.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:24 pmJay
July 24th, 2005 at 11:25 pmWe are in Iraq as a proxy army to fight for Saudi Arabian royal family and all its minions including the Bush family and probably the Clintons now after Bill’s boating vacation with daddy bush and bill and hilary’s sudden love of no timetable for withdrawal. The Saudis want to control the middle east, the Bushies and the oil companies want the oil, and our children are the cannon fodder.
And Jay
July 24th, 2005 at 11:25 pmThank you for asking. And not just calling me a troll.
I think the frothy foaming mouth is giving you away. If you can give a shot to the left while crossing your fingers when you give one to the right you can get a few shots in and not be dismissed.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:25 pmJanitor, I love the Rove picture…is that sumbitch reading the NYT :)
July 24th, 2005 at 11:25 pmThat’s probably quite true, and if you don’t vote for a Democrat you will end up with a Republican.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:26 pmAnd Janitors
July 24th, 2005 at 11:26 pmAre you addressing your inane questions to me? or to everyone? And if you are addressing me why don’t you say so. Otherwise go flush yourself down your federalist urinal.
Not sure. I need to put it back up.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:26 pmHe’s awfully “nasty”. Isn’t he?
July 24th, 2005 at 11:27 pmFlea
July 24th, 2005 at 11:28 pmGiving me away? What does that mean? I’ll give a shot to the left and to the right and to the middle, i don’t give a rat’s ass about any group. They are all just people, silly messed up arrogant egotistical people some of whom may try to do some good along the way. SImilar to alot of the people on this blog is seems.
No one likes the Dinos, Ye. I’ve always said Clinton was the best Republican president we’ve had since Eisenhower. But Kucinich don’t have a snowballs chance in hell.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:29 pmYe,
While I don’t agree 100% with that explanation, I think it’s along the same lines that most of us do. Janitor, hud, et al….a troll would have responded with: “we’re fighting them there rather than here” or “we’re spreading freedom and democracy”.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:29 pmJanitor
July 24th, 2005 at 11:30 pmIt does not seem to matter who we end up with – Republican or Democrat – i haven’t seen a difference between the two in the last 50 years. Just death and destruction and lots of corruption.
A. STRAFING (AREA)
This method of attack is usually employed during the hours of daylight from a low-level approach to the target. However, it may be used at night under bright moonlight, but with a higher angle of attack than advocated herein.
1. On departing the IP for the target, the pilot will immediately check all gun switches ON and increase the airspeed as rapidly as possible to a desired 320 mph. At approximately 3,000 yards from the target, the pilot pulls up to 300 ft. above the terrain, spots his target, releases the safety switch on the guns, and make necessary last minute azimuth corrections.
2. At approximately 1200 yards from the target, the pilot enters a gentle dive, lines up he target in the sight and commences his strafing run. Firing bursts should be short, starting at 1,000 yards, and breaking off at 400 yards. Gently fan the rudder during the run to effectively cover the target area.
3. Points to be stressed:
a. Airspeed should be increase rapidly after leaving the IP (Desired airspeed is 320 mph). This is the best defense against enemy ground fire while on a low-level strafing run.
b. Maximum effective firing range of the calibre .50 machine gun is 1,000 to 400 yards.
c. Evasive action off the target should be high airspeed close to the ground, using whatever evasive turns are possible in the surrounding terrain. Terrain, in all cases, will dictate the evasive action. However a chandelle is considered highly undesirable, since this maneuver present a plan view of the airplane for any enemy gunners surrounding the target area.
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B. STRAFING (HIGH-ANGLE)
This method of strafing attack is the most common and effective tactic employed in night operation against moving targets such as trains and trucks supply dumps, and towns suspected of housing troops or supplies.
1. Following are the principles involved in the high-angle strafing attack:
a. The attack is made from an altitude of at least 3,000 ft. above the target, depending on surrounding terrain.
b. A dive angle of approximately 30 degrees is established for the firing run.
c. Desired airspeed of approximately 320 mph is sustained throughout the firing run.
2. The advantages of this type of strafing attack during the hours of darkness are as follows:
a. Targets are more easily spotted from a search altitude.
b. A visual picture of the terrain surrounding the target may be maintained, allowing a planned attack on, and departure from, the target.
3. Procedures recommended for carrying out a high-angle attack are:
a. Upon sighting a target from the above recommended search altitude, the pilot immediately checks all gun switches and determines the best approach to attack with reference to target and surrounding terrain.
b. Start the firing pass when it is estimated that approximately a 30-degree dive can be established for the run. Power should be increased to reach the desired 320 mph on the approach.
c. Commence firing short bursts at 1,000 yards and break off at 400 yards. At low altitude, avoid passing directly over a target suspected of containing explosives.
d. The breakaway from the target should be at high airspeed, and the evasive turns, of course, are dictated by surrounding terrain and enemy fire.
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C. ROCKET FIRING
1. The tactics employed in a rocket attack are identical to the low-level and high-angle strafing attack as described above. However, the techniques involved in hitting the target require a better than average judgment of range and can only be attained through devotion to serious instruction and practice. Procedures for setting up the Rocket Intervalometer should be thoroughly understood, and the rocket checklist should be used before the rocket attack.
2. Targets for the 5 inch HVAR rocket are the same as those vulnerable to the calibre .50 machine gun. NVAR rockets are exceptionally adapted to the destruction of tanks. The rocket is used for both day and night low-level operation. However, the difficulty experienced in depth perception on dark nights makes accuracy questionable.
3. Pilots using rockets for the first time during the hours of darkness should be cognizant of the rocket flash causing partial blindness for a few seconds immediately after firing. Different pilots, experienced in night rocket firing, have developed various means of effectively eliminating this hazard. Some recommend closing one eye during the time the rocket is being fired, and using this eye after the flash has subsided. Others recommend closing both eyes a split second before releasing the rocket, then allowing one or two seconds for the flash to subside before exposing the eyes again. Serious thought should be given to considering the latter method before using it when operating below 1,000 feet.
4. Procedures prior to rocket attack.
a. Gun sight ON and set for desired range, airspeed, and angle of attack.
b. Bomb-Rocket switch on ROCKET.
c. Rocket fusing switch on INSTANTANEOUS.
d. Rocket knob to #1.
e. Rocket selector switch to AUTOMATIC or SELECT as desired.
f. Bomb circuit main power switch ON.
5. Refer to the attached charts for determining sight settings at various airspeeds and ranges of release. Charts are compiled for low-level attack or high-angle dive.
a. The desirable range of release is 1,000 yards and the maximum effective range is 4,000 yard.
b. The best results have been obtained with the steep-angle of dive.
Ye
There was no, repeat no, napalm dropped on Vietnam from 30,000 feet. Clean the contact lens in your navel and determine the facts from other than the brown haze you seem to be looking through.
D. NAPALMING
July 24th, 2005 at 11:31 pm… the recommended altitude of release is 50-100 ft. above the terrain, and a flat target approach is required for accuracy. Some pilots have been able to release the tank from a glide-bombing altitude, but they are still required to come to a low altitude for release.
Ye,
You said you have a son in Iraq?
July 24th, 2005 at 11:31 pmThe important thing is to aid in the destruction of the right wing, for once and for all, and if the Democratic party can be a vehicle to accomplish that, good. Than we can take it over like the other side did to the Republican party, with greater success and for the benefit of all.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:31 pmOh yeah, you don’t deploy napalm from that altitude. It’s a ground support weapon. Did he say that?
July 24th, 2005 at 11:33 pmJay
Well just as long as you and hud feel comfortable that i’m not a troll that’s all that matters. I guess you guys own this blog and everyone else just nods along. Well excuse me for living and having a different opinion. You guys are real jittery about anybody who doesn’t agree. I guess this is your cozy zone. I’ll leave then. I have no interest in nodding along with the the bone heads. I like a good argument. But all gramma, hud and marie could muster was name calling, and when that didn’t work marie decide i was nasty. That was really powerful.
Jeez. If you guys are any example of what the national security democrats have to offer, we can all kiss our sorry asses good bye.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:33 pmJeez, you can just watch war movies and know that.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:34 pmNo Ye, but we get quite a few right wing trolls here.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:35 pmWoah, wait a minute there buddy, I’m trying to get your opinions on some things…don’t be so hasty. Do you have a son in Iraq?
July 24th, 2005 at 11:35 pmJanitor
July 24th, 2005 at 11:35 pmDestroy the right wing? Oh that’s good. Dream on you bone head. You know you will never win that fight. It’s all about change. First one group comes to power, then the other, and then the first ones comes back, just a bit different, and so on. And in the meantime, innocent kids are sent to their deaths, and corporate moguls make their billions, and the politicos get to dream about destroying the opposition.
I expect we will be less unified as the right crumbles, but I don’t think that frightens us as much as it does them.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:36 pmNo, he doesn’t Jay.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:37 pmJay
July 24th, 2005 at 11:38 pmI’ve been through this already – my son is draft age, he was gung ho to join the marines fresh out of high school last year, i don’t know if you’ve ever experienced fear in your bones, but i did then cause i knew if i said one word he would join up. so i stayed silent and he went to the recruiter and he listened and he walked away from the marine recruiters recognizing that they were lying to him. but he’s ripe for the pickings. we don’t have much money adn we’re struggling to keep him in college, and jobs are few. so to hell with gramma, and hud, and marie who called me a traitor and everything else.
So Fukuyama’s End Of History isn’t your thing. You see a never ending cycle of polarizing influences.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:39 pmAnd screw you janitor of the urinals who thinks he’s going to take on the right wing. it smacks of the french revolution. And when you bring in the guillotine, who’s head will you go for after mine, jay’s, hud’s, marie’s, it’s only a matter of time in your quest for power.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:40 pmNo one called you a traitor, that is a lie. Now I don’t trust you.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:40 pmAt least I didn’t. And you could sign on with any name and call yourself a traitor, and we’d be none the wiser. But you don’t smell right to me.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:41 pmI was called a traitor by gramma on another post, and hud joined in and then marie called me nasty. and You don’t smell too good either.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:42 pmI have two young sons (just babies, 3 and 1) and I’m already petrified that as we run out of oil and we continue to wage wars to keep the American economy alive, we will all be forced to sacrifice our children unless we make it clear that this cannot stand. Ye, you said yourself that our governments policies have been about war and corruption and death for 50 years….without making any judgements about you, how could you let him get anywhere near that recruiting office. These guys lied us to war and will do it again if allowed. DON’T LET YOUR SON JOIN!
July 24th, 2005 at 11:42 pmi don’t want you to trust me janitor. I would be concerned if the likes of you trusted me.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:43 pmThey are doing a great job of bringing themselves down. If I didn’t think progressive social democracies weren’t the superior form of governments, I wouldn’t bother being here. You don’t smell right.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:43 pmShow me the post where Gramma called you a traitor.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:44 pmNot a conditional, “if you blah blah, then you are a traitor” But “you are a traitor”
July 24th, 2005 at 11:45 pmjay
July 24th, 2005 at 11:45 pmwith all due respect, when your children are older and if you have raised them to be independent, you will know that the best way to drive your child into the arms of the recruiters is to tell them not to go. I did tell him that he would have to read information from alternative news sources that i would give him. he knew how i felt anyway. he wrote a paper in college about making the decision to join or not. at the end he said “and anyway my parents would kill me first.” when explaining why he decided not to joion up.
Would your son be named Jethro by chance? Say hi to Granny and Ellie May.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:45 pmjanitor go clean some toilets
July 24th, 2005 at 11:46 pmYe, while it’s fine to dislike or not trust both parties (I don’t) we have to support one or the other until there is an alternative or a revolution. I’m all for the latter, but we need to get mobilized.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:46 pmIf he is 18, there is nothing you can do about it. And it still isn’t a reason to be pissed off at us, or Bill Clinton.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:47 pmSee? He’s a liar. No proof.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:47 pmThe desire to be the center of attention says it all. He’s A Troll.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:49 pmI would look myself, but you are the one who made the claim. The burden of proof is on you. I will call troll. Again.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:49 pmYep, afraid so. Flea had him pegged on the other thread, too.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:50 pmNo i don’t have to support one party. You guys think you can dictate. That’s your problem. You sound as bad as the republicans. Just a different spiel. And Janitor is a fascist in the making. i’m tired of you all. I thought this blog had something of intelligence to say but you don’t. YOu just attack anyone who doesn’t “smell right” i guess that means doesn’t stink.
Bye Bye stinky ones. Enjoy your smelly ditch.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:50 pmHey Jay, You remember SJS?
July 24th, 2005 at 11:51 pmJanitor, I agree with you that once he’s 18 it’s his call, but my point is that if I’m aware of how predatory and war-mongering the US government is/has been, I’m teaching them that war may be noble and right in some cases, but if there is any question about the motives of the warmakers, if they can’t be trusted, they will not be cannon fodder.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:52 pmSure I remember SJS, I think we teamed up to drive buckshot outta here.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:53 pmI have never denied that I am anti-fascist to a fault, and that does mean I have the seeds of my apparent contrarity in my political constitution. It’s a delicate balance. I’m too far to the left/libertarian to be a fascist though.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:54 pmYe, I think you’re a bit too sensitive and Janitor wa right, you’re anger is misguided. We all want an end to this war and we support the troops by arguing for their return.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:55 pmYeah, that was me, Shoeless Joe Stalin. I like to make up funny nicks. It’s my one vice:)
I am not a dove or a hawk. I am a person who thinks that the world is not a friendly place all the time, and national defense is necessary, but what we call the defense dept. should really be called the war dept.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:57 pmIf it’s not Scottish…it’s crap! You still work with the homeless?
July 24th, 2005 at 11:58 pmI was in favor of The Afghan intervention, and Iraq at first, then I realized we were snookered. My son did the same thing Ye claims his kid is doing. He joined the army in the 90’s and became a Ranger. He’s out now, and I thank the deity for that.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:59 pmYes, up until yesterday. Taking a break for the summer. It gets worse in the winter, I will go back then.
July 25th, 2005 at 12:00 amI must have missed quite a bit of Ye’s comments because he was getting reamed pretty bad in here. I do have a hard time disagreeing with anyone that is rabidly anti-war and who is so fed up with the current two parties that they are willing to fight both. We need new leadership in the Dem party…no question.
July 25th, 2005 at 12:03 amYe is hard to peg, but maybe we were right, maybe not. I don’t hang out at DU much, but I’d rather be there than Freep. We have extremists on both sides, but I do want this right wing to fall, these guys are not conservatives or even traditional Republicans. I don’t like either party either. But you have to be a realist. I’m not pro-war, but I’m not a pacifist either.
July 25th, 2005 at 12:05 amThe drift to the right, so that Eisenhower sounds like what they term an Ultra Liberal these days, is ridiculous. Read that.
http://www.eisenhowermemorial.org/presidential-papers/first-term/documents/1147.cfm
July 25th, 2005 at 12:07 amI’m not a pacificst either, but Iraq is oh so bogus and those that followed what was going on from jumpstreet know how full of ship these criminals are. A lot needs to happen to bring down this fraudulent right-wing movement.
We need all the votes to count.
July 25th, 2005 at 12:09 amWe need the media to be fixed.
We need Democrats that have the courage to get in the face of the liars every time they tell a lie. Biden and Lieberman and even Pelosi et al are killing us. We need 500 Barbara Boxers.
Agreed. It is a war crime, like the Gulf of Tonkin Res. and Viet Nam. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Biden should just switch parties. Even Atrios gave Willy wanker of the day status the other day. Clinton. He’s the best Republican president we’ve had since Eisenhower.
July 25th, 2005 at 12:12 amTomorrow’s another day….good night.
July 25th, 2005 at 12:14 amhttp://www.prospect.org/weblog/archives/2005/07/index.html#007130
http://atrios.blogspot.com/2005_07_17_atrios_archive.html#112179636599371738
Even Willy
July 25th, 2005 at 12:15 amnight m8
July 25th, 2005 at 12:15 amMcCain: “if you do something without knowledge that you’re violating or being negligent,”
If you do it without knowledge, that’s negligence.
If you don’t know it’s negligence, that’s negligence.
Violating is either negligent or purposeful, as here.
The discussion of ‘war crimes’ vis-a-vis presidents is utterly out of context.
The Pentagon of the 60s wasn’t controllable by JFK or Johnson.
In 1963, the world was nearly destroyed during the Cuban missile crisis, which we now know was even more serious than thought at the time. Not only did Cuba have more missiles than known then, but two of three Russian sub captains ordered their nukes fired on America. Only that one dissenting vote saved our civilization.
Not taking context into account, it is easy to feel superior to the limits of our democracy.
No one has ever claimed that JFK or Johnson (or Nixon for that matter) PROFITED off the Vietnam war.
Compare to Bush, and there is no comparison.
July 25th, 2005 at 12:49 amSo how’s he going to convince South Carolina voters that he is not insane, and his wife doesn’t have a black bastard kid? That’s the whisper campaign Rove was running against him in 08. It’s way to late for him. I once considered voting for him. His actions in the last 4 years have turned me against him.
July 25th, 2005 at 2:54 amMcCain was just caught with the meat in his mouth.
I’m old enought to remember when he was one of the Keating Five.
Straight Talk Express my ass. That bus-name alone should have been a clue, but the media fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
July 25th, 2005 at 6:50 amStrange exchange in this thread .Distraction?,Division? , Ye seems to be running interference or laying down cover of some kind and besides him, I see no other troll here. Can’t remember the last time a thread this long was troll-free. Must be a new tactic.
July 25th, 2005 at 9:48 amWent back and read Gonzalez/Card thread. Ye seems to want to share the blame for Iraq EQUALLY between Rep. and Dem.. Future desperate spin?
July 25th, 2005 at 10:11 amJohn,
Since most of the Dems capitulated on Iraq in the post-9/11 warmongering, patriotic fervor, I think the Dems should take some responsibility. Their job is to keep the oppostion honest, especially since they know that the Republicans want to destroy them. They rubber-stamped Bush’s war instead. Obviously, those Dems that voted against the war are excluded from this charge.
July 25th, 2005 at 11:02 amYea, those of you who are putting your own egos ahead of the thread, please stay off the road. You aren’t as important as the events that shape our history. Your opinion is valuable, but keep it in those terms.
When you start running the discussion off the road, you’re a troll. When you make wildly unsubstantiated claims, you’re a troll. When you rage mindlessly, you’re a troll.
Talk, don’t troll.
July 25th, 2005 at 11:07 amI agree Jay.
July 25th, 2005 at 11:20 ammccain left his testerone-producing apparatus on the ground as a POW in Nam. He hasn’t used it since. He will hopefully go the way of most Repugs in 2006. I will work to that end. If I have my way, these repugs will not succeed in any election until well after I’m dead.
July 25th, 2005 at 11:42 amWell, sad to say, but about the only GOP Senator who even appeared to have a shred of integrity, is nothing but an opportunistic bullshitter. Really, McCain defending Rove is really disturbing. Having to defend someone who systematically, and despicably, destroyed your attempt at the White House, makes me wonder which has deserted McCain: his sanity, or his much-heralded integrity? Oh well, shouldn’t be surprised. When you work for so long with the ethically challenged, it is bound to rub off.
July 25th, 2005 at 11:44 amKnowing what we know about how Karl Rove operates, neither “honest” nor “mistake” apply to him.
July 25th, 2005 at 12:00 pmIn regard’s to McCain:
July 25th, 2005 at 3:19 pmWe shouldn’t be so hard on McCain for his ‘mistake’. It was an honest mistake, no negligence (whatever that means) on his part. He can’t be held negligent for repeating talking points.
I can forgive a Dem who does what he has to do to survive politically, in some cases, like voting for the war when to do otherwise may have been political suicide for some, as long as he is true to the ideals of the party and opposed to the GOP agenda. Neither Biden nor McCain would ever get my vote. I also put a premium on integrity and subtract points for blind ideological loyalty.
July 25th, 2005 at 6:44 pmYou have to remember McCain is still the same guy that was on the take from Keating. McCain is a founding member of the “I’m crooked, but got caught so I’ll pretend to change my spots” club. Don’t buy it. He’s a Manchurian Candidate for sure.
In the post 9/11 paranoia patriotica, the Dems sure DO deserve as much of the blame as anyone else for just blindly following along. They were completely spineless, they let the fascist bastards in the White House walk all over them, then begged for more.
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