Is There a Lesson To Be Learned From the Soviet Experience In Afghanistan?
Is There a Lesson To Be Learned From the Soviet Experience In Afghanistan?
This weekend, current U.S. Ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad, will appear on numerous Sunday shows: NBC’s Meet the Press, ABC’s This Week with George Stephanopoulos, Fox News Sunday, and CNN Late Edition.
In February 1989, Khalilzad penned an op-ed in the Washington Post explaining “How the Good Guys Won In Afghanistan.” His argument was simple: the Soviets underestimated the level of insurgent resistance they would face. Through persistence, the insurgency ultimately drove the Soviets out of Afghanistan.
Here’s what he wrote:
The key to the victory was that we came to believe — Afghans and Americans — that the Soviets could be stopped. Once we gained that confidence, everything else was possible. But it didn’t start out that way. When the Soviets invaded in 1979, they felt confident that they would prevail. And conventional wisdom in the West, too, assumed that Afghanistan could not withstand Soviet power.
The Soviets had expected a quick victory. When it eluded them, they changed tactics. Initially, they employed large formations in the countryside against the mujaheddin. The Afghans refused to fight a conventional war and instead adopted hit-and-run tactics — using to the maximum their familiarity with the local terrain.
When Mikhail Gorbachev assumed power in March 1985, he inherited an Afghanistan that had become a Soviet quagmire.
Increasingly after 1986, Gorbachev seemed to recognize that the Soviets did not have a war-winning strategy. The war was also becoming unpopular at home and even within the Soviet armed forces By the end of 1986, Gorbachev began to seek terms for a Soviet withdrawal. The war was a drain on the Soviet economy. ["How the Good Guys Won In Aghanistan," Zalmay Khalilzad, Washington Post, 2/12/89]
The question for Khalilzad: are there any lessons for our current struggle in Iraq that we can glean from the Soviet experience in Afghanistan?
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Another question:
How did the failure of the US to keep its promises to the Afghan people after the Soviets left contribute to those “good guys” in 1989 turning into very bad guys by 9/11/01, and what lessons can we learn from that?
August 12th, 2005 at 4:02 pmNot surprising (!) – a parallel thought comparing Afghanistan & Iraq. What were the Soviets hoping to achieve in Afghanistan?? Were they expanding Soviet imperialism? Were they helping train Afghan troops for self-determination?
August 12th, 2005 at 4:04 pmYes, there is a very important lesson to be learned from the Soviet experience in Afghanistan: The Afghan people love their freedom, and they will fight to protect it against foreign tyrants, like the U.S.S.R., and domestic tyrants, like Mullah Omar and the Taliban. The Afghan people are proud to have America as an ally in this struggle.
August 12th, 2005 at 4:18 pmIf any of the people the current administration has pissed off are “helping” foment change in Iraq the way we helped people like Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan, then yes. Iraq may well be the US quagmire that the Soviets experienced in Afghanistan.
Its much more complex than just this. But there are very strong parallels.
And the US is not completely out of Afghanistan itself. So history my be repeated in that part of the world too.
Two strikes against the US in such a short span of history.
August 12th, 2005 at 4:19 pmIraq and Afghanistan are completely different. For one thing, Mullah Omar is not on the verge of being tried and executed. I’d give anything to trade places with ol’ One-Eye.
August 12th, 2005 at 4:23 pmYea but there is helping the Afgani’s and then there is helping the afgani’s.
They are a proud and independent type. I have no doubt that they would love for us to continue to help them build their infrastructure. I also have no doubts that they want us butt out when it comes to how to run their own. Their ways and values are vastly different from ours.
Also, bushco speaks with forked tongue. They say one thing, freedom, and then lay down all these preconditions and strings to getting the help. It’s an economic colonialism where the oligarchs (corporates) hold all the power. The Afgans want no part of that.
August 12th, 2005 at 4:31 pmWe all know how it will turn out. How many people came from all over the world, bound by Jihad and a common religion, to aid the Viet Namese people fight the foreign U.S. occupation? And you have to wonder? Had we done what was right in Afghanistan, and not invaded Iraq, the greatest strategic error committed by the U.S., we would be living in a different world, and George Bush, (I hate to say it) would have a legacy all Americans, and the world, would respect.
August 12th, 2005 at 4:36 pmOh, and for full disclosure I used to be an advisor to UNOCAL, and didn’t mind the Taleban’s trip to Texas in ‘97
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/west_asia/37021.stm
August 12th, 2005 at 4:38 pmThe afghans aren’t too happy with us today. We dropped a bomb on civilians and are now denying any civilian casualties.
The afghans that are in the hospital that are having their limbs re-attached are just lying to us.
August 12th, 2005 at 4:39 pm#3:
2+2=2, huh?
August 12th, 2005 at 4:44 pm“The Afghan people love their freedom, and they will fight to protect it against foreign tyrants, like the U.S.S.R”
Tell it to the 22-year old taxi driver who we chained to the ceiling and whose legs we beat to pulp. What is this the irony free zone? We’re not “foreign fighters”? Like we belong everywhere?
August 12th, 2005 at 4:51 pmIt’s really stem-cell foreign policy: Innoculate damaged cultures with American ways, and supposedly the cultures will get up out of their wheelchairs and walk. Only–praise God and hallelujah–it turns out to be faith-healing.
August 12th, 2005 at 4:53 pmWe can’t learn much, because the Soviet Union straight up occupied Afghanistan. We don’t occupy Afghanistan, but are there hunting down Taliban and supporting the Karzai government. Most of Afghanistan is not fighting us, only the Pakistani and Arab supported Taliban mysoginists.
August 12th, 2005 at 4:53 pm#13: the comparison wasn’t between our presence in afghanistan and the soviet’s, but rather our occupation of iraq and the soviet invasion of afghanistan. like the ussr in afghanistan, we severly underestimated the level and ferociousness of the opposition in iraq, which has led us to our present quagmire.
August 12th, 2005 at 5:07 pmOne thing we should have learned is to not finance or give arms to Osama Bin Laden, like we did at that time.
August 12th, 2005 at 5:12 pmOne thing we should have learned is not to sell arms and give battlefield plans to someone like Saddam and then expect him to kneel when we say he has something he doesn’t (like WMD).
There is ALWAYS trouble afoot when people wrap themselves in the flag.
August 12th, 2005 at 5:21 pm#13, Lieall never learns anything except that Bush is Hand picked by God to lead us to Hell.
August 12th, 2005 at 5:24 pmFor a take on the path forward, see:
“The Global War on Error.”
August 12th, 2005 at 5:37 pmOur present government thinks they can defy history. They may have read about it, but their egos didn’t let them imagine it could happen to them — they are smarter than the Soviets.
August 12th, 2005 at 5:50 pmToday I heard that we killed some civilians in Afghanistan, but we are “checking it out” (before denying it) until the headline goes away.
The horrible war begun in Iraq had no basis in fact, nor reason, nor cause other than the Bushies thought they were invincible — at the expense of our young soldiers.
I keep hearing the refrain from the song of the 60’s “Where have all the flowers gone?”
A better lesson to be learned (at least in the future) is from Bosnia. By gaining the enemy’s surrender via relentless naval and air assaults, we avoid not only the larger casualty #, but we also avoid the insurgency that results from sending soldiers in to destroy the governmental structure of said enemy. With few soldiers physically in enemy territory, the insurgency has a much smaller target. And in fact, if voluntary surrender (with terms we decide) is the goal instead of deposement, the risk of insurgency is itself diminished.
August 12th, 2005 at 6:02 pmCan someone (neocon preferably) tell me why the tyrants of the middle east are hiding their WMD’s instead of using them against us?
August 12th, 2005 at 6:11 pm#20:
Iraq has had about 5 U.S. troops per 1000 inhabitants. There have been 20 per 1000 inhabitants in Bosnia [Rand Corp.]. Statistically, the correlation between density of troops and success on the ground is exactly the inverse of what you claim.
August 12th, 2005 at 6:22 pmYou can’t learn anything if you don’t start with the facts.
There’s something wrong with you, Lyle. Did you used to be an abused woman?
August 12th, 2005 at 6:28 pmLessons learned from Afghanistan: If each child in the U.S. gives just one dollar, all the people will fall to their knees and say, “anything you say BOSSMAN JOE”
August 12th, 2005 at 6:28 pmSee, the Soviets only gave the children colorful cluster bomblets.
All you need to know about Afhganistan is in Michael Scheuer’s book “Imperial Hubris”. Karzai is the powerless, temporary mayor of a temporary, small town.
August 12th, 2005 at 6:31 pmYes, there is a lesson to be learned: Invade a country, occupy it for ten years, get soundly defeated, withdraw.
Another lesson: Become a coward like George Bush. “Bring it on,” said George Bush, but when a WOMAN shows up at his doorstep he hides behind closed doors. He should be gaffed and thrown in the hoosegow.
These whatever they are, hardly ‘men,’ need to learn a lesson the hard way. What goes around comes around.
August 12th, 2005 at 6:33 pmHold on 2+2, Clinton had zero combat deaths in the Bosnia op. We were also not in there unilaterally, but under the aegis of NATO. But Clinton’s effort there was a success. All of these comparisons are never paribus ceteris. There are commonalities and differences. One thing that remains is the amazing connie duplicitous hypocrisy.
VERBATIM QUOTES FROM WHEN CLINTON WAS COMMITTING TROOPS TO BOSNIA:
“You can support the troops but not the president.”
—Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)
“Well, I just think it’s a bad idea. What’s going to happen is they’re going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years.”
—Joe Scarborough (R-FL)
“Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?”
—Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99
“[The] President . . . is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation’s armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy.”
—Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA)
“American foreign policy is now one huge big mystery. Simply put, the administration is trying to lead the world with a feel-good foreign policy.”
—Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)
“If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy.”
—Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of George W Bush
“I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning . . I didn’t think we had done enough in the diplomatic area.”
—Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)
“I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our over-extended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today”
—Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)
“Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is.”
August 12th, 2005 at 6:49 pm—Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)
Lessons learned by the Soviets in Afghanistan: destroy their government and their economy and them leave them alaone for a bit and they can be the world’s finest producer of quality smack to be had anywhere in St Petersburg.
August 12th, 2005 at 7:17 pmKillCon (#27) Nice Post!! We need to save that list of quotes for the next time NED calls one of us a traitor for condemning this bs war.
August 12th, 2005 at 7:26 pmLove the Quotes. Still shaking my head.
August 12th, 2005 at 7:32 pmSounds like American success in Afghanistan and Iraq would make most of the people on this site – unhappy?
August 12th, 2005 at 7:51 pmSounds like American success in Afghanistan and Iraq would make most of the people on this site – unhappy?
Comment by Nat Hale  August 12, 2005 @ 7:51 pm
It sounds like you won’t be happy until there are choppers lifting people off of the roof of the embassy again. Then you can blame it on Cindy Sheehan. I wish you were in reach, you little puke. I would slap you around before putting you up against a wall, you cowardly, malingering little puke.
August 12th, 2005 at 8:00 pmWe aren’t willing to sell our souls and our childrens lives for the oil in Iraq Nat.
It’s called being decent human beings. You might think about becoming one yourself.
August 12th, 2005 at 8:03 pmAmerican success in Afghanistan and Iraq would/could have been achieved diplomatically, not militarily. doofus
August 12th, 2005 at 8:03 pmOr of course, you (gNat) could do the honorable thing and go fight for the Afghans and Iraqi’s yourself.
Post #27 quotes are from your criminals and it is your duty to do what they say or you can just shut up.
We wont hold our breath chickenhawk.
August 12th, 2005 at 8:06 pmOnce again Nat, a wingnut completely missing the point. A better fit would be; Most here would be happy if these wars were not doomed to fail.
August 12th, 2005 at 8:06 pmThere is no success you moron. We failed at both the minute we went into Iraq, needlessly. Idiot!
I supported both invasions. We were lied to about Iraq. I changed my mind. I still think Afghanistan was necessary. Failing could have been avoided. Frontline had a great segment on PBS called Rumsfeld’s War. Google it, you can watch it on line. We could have had success in Iraq but we have idiots, morons and cowboy coward chickenhawks calling the shots and they have failed at both because they were dead set on Iraq, which should never have been attempted. My son was a Ranger in the 90s, Somalia. I’m glad he’s out and I hope he stays out. Nat Hale, STFU and serve your country. They need new meat.
August 12th, 2005 at 8:11 pmNot you, #36, Nat. We failed already. It’s over.
August 12th, 2005 at 8:12 pmImagine capturing OBL and having 130,000 + sets of boots on the ground in Afghanistan rebuilding a country that was in the stone age. Instead we needlessly destroyed one of the more advanced and secular countries in the Arab world and turned the whole arab world against us. Only idiots could accomplish this blunder. Bush and the PNAC chickenhawk neocons. The greatest threat to democracy since Hitler.
August 12th, 2005 at 8:18 pm#27 good info. gathering.
August 12th, 2005 at 8:39 pmI printed it for my own use. Hope you don’t mind. Thanks.
There will never be peace in the Middle East as long as we are there. Nat if you think that we on this site do not peace you are wrong. Seeing women and children being blown up is not my kind of entertainment
August 12th, 2005 at 8:52 pmNeocons: Greatest threat to world peace since Hitler.
Leo Strauss was the Zionist answer to Nazism. Leo Strauss is the Godfather of the neocon movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss
August 12th, 2005 at 8:57 pm#27 (KillCon)
Thank you for providing the context. My argument was very limited. I should have clarified: there are many other reasons why Bosnia succeeeded and Iraq isn’t, the cons’ support is not one of them. I too remember the cons’ defeatist drumbeat, talk of “quagmire”, et cetera. Strategically, Bosnia was sound and was way better planned than Iraq, in concert with most of the international community. Maybe that clarifies where I stand. Thank you for refreshing our memories. BTW, I think not a single American soldier’s life has been lost in Bosnia.
August 12th, 2005 at 9:16 pmI just got this check it out.
VERBATIM QUOTES FROM WHEN CLINTON WAS COMMITTING TROOPS TO BOSNIA:
“You can support the troops but not the president.”
–Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)
“Well, I just think it’s a bad idea. What’s going to happen is they’re going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years.”
–Joe Scarborough (R-FL)
“Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?”
–Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99
“[The] President . . . is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation’s armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy.”
–Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA)
“American foreign policy is now one huge big mystery. Simply put, the administration is trying to lead the world with a feel-good foreign policy.”
–Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)
“If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy.”
–Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of George W Bush
“I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning . . I didn’t think we had done enough in the diplomatic area.”
–Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)
“I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our over-extended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today”
–Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)
“Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is.”
–Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)
Ten Hut! Chicken Hawks on board! NO salute…
Post these quotes around and watch the pro-occupiers go down!
August 12th, 2005 at 9:20 pmNP 2+2. I was just taking a dig at Clinton bashers. Not you.
Zero, zip, zilch, nada, goose egg. Same as the number of convictions for the Clinton White House.
August 12th, 2005 at 9:22 pmIndictments, even.
August 12th, 2005 at 9:22 pmThe Worm Turns…
All the Government Slaves try to figure this one out -
In the entire history of steel frame high-rise buildings, only three have collapsed due to fire.
All three collapsed on one day – September 11, 2001
Larry Silverstein owned all three.
In the documentary “America Rebuilds”, aired September 2002, Silverstein makes the following statement;
“I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, ‘We’ve had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.’ And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.” [mp3]
August 12th, 2005 at 10:23 pmWhat do you suppose he meant by “Pull it�?
Are government buildings routinely pre-fitted with explosive charges?
The days grow shorter and the nights are getting long
Seems like we’re running out of time
Everday it seems much harder telling right from wrong
You’ve got to read between the lines
Dont get discouraged, don’t be afraid
You can make it through another day
Make it worth the price we pay
The good book says it’s better to give than to recieve
I do my best to do my part
Nothing in my pockets I got nothing up my sleeve
I keep my magic in my heart
Keep up your spirit, keep up your faith
I am counting on you
You know what you got to do
Fight the good fight every moment
Every minute, every day
Fight the good fight every moment
Its the only way
All your life you’ve been waiting for your chance
Throw your fear to the past
Cuz your the master of your own destiny
So give and take the best that you can
You think that you can be so submiss
You better be something else instead
Your so afraid of being honest with yourself
You better look inside yourself
Nothing is easy, nothing good is free
But I can tell you where to start
Take a look inside your heart
There’s an answer in your heart
Fight the good fight every moment
Every minute, every day
Make it worth the price we pay
It’s the only way
Triumph
August 12th, 2005 at 10:47 pmTell you what would make me happy, Nat. If all the mid east deserts were like the set of “Lawrence of Arabia” or the “The Lion King”.
August 12th, 2005 at 11:11 pmWhat? LEARN from mistakes? Sorry, you must be thinking about some country that doesn’t only give promotions to the nodding bobbleheads that blindly follow the party line.
August 13th, 2005 at 3:37 am“The last period of stability in Afghanistan lay between 1933 and 1973, when the country was under the rule of King Zahir Shah. However, in 1973, Zahir’s brother-in-law, Sardar Mohammed Daoud launched a bloodless coup. Daoud and his entire family were murdered in 1978 when the communist People’s Democratic Party of Afghanistan launched a coup and took over the government.
Opposition against, and conflict within, the series of leftist governments that followed was considerable. In August 1978 the American government commenced funding anti-government mujahideen forces; the Soviet Union invaded on December 24, 1979. Faced with mounting international pressure and losses of approximately 15,000 Soviet soldiers as a result of mujahideen opposition trained by the United States, Pakistan, and other foreign governments, the Soviets withdrew ten years later in 1989. For more details, see Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
Fighting subsequently continued among the various mujahidin factions. This eventually gave rise to a state of warlordism. The chaos and corruption involved in warlordism in turn spawned the rise of the Taliban in reaction. The most serious of this fighting occurred in 1994, when 10,000 people were killed from factions fighting in the Kabul area. Backed by Pakistan and her strategic allies, the Taliban developed as a political/religious force and eventually seized power in 1996″
from wiki on afghanistan. there is one on khalilzad. I didn’t know he signed the pnac.
August 13th, 2005 at 9:01 amWhen the US originally booted the Taliban I had had high hopes that we could:
1) Better the lives of Afgani’s by helping fund the rebuilding of their country and infrastructure. The workers/jobs required would assist the development of a bigger more involved middle class which is the best deterent from extremism.
2) That the leaders of our government would have learned from the mistakes the US made in Vietnam & the USSR in Afganistan.
Unfortunately, I didn’t account seriously enough the fact that the leaders of our country:
1) Became lustful over their neighboring country which contained lots of OIL. Let’s face it, the current administration is just functioning as an extension of the oil & mineral extraction companies lobbying group, but they are now cutting all the checks.
2) The neocons really do believe in the mid-east domino theory. They figured if they took out Iran quick enough they could steamroll through Syria and Lebanon. Thus muscling Iran, Libya and all the smaller countries in line.
3) Cheney & bush43 still held a grudge against Saddam for his plot to try and assasinate bush41. It was a three-fer in their minds.
4) Our fearless leaders ALL did skip out on Vietnam duty and are now proud chickenhawks trying to claim their manly place in the world. These are almost all spoiled children who wholly believe in being the schoolyard bully of the world just because they can, now.
No, they blew it when they took their eye off the ball. They gutted funding for Afganistan and put all their resources on the march to the Mediteranian. This ensures that we are going to face the exact same consequence that the USSR faced not 10-20 years ago.
My thing is that if we could have shown the people of the middle east and the world a success story in Afganistan, then the dream that that could place in the minds of people would be so much more powerful in persuading the populace of a better way of carrying on in their lives and governments. That it would be much more long term stability and hope for the world as a whole.
Too bad too. I’m not sure we have any chance of regrouping and doing the right thing. The current bunch Einsteins in this administration will NEVER do it because they could NEVER admit to being wrong, about anything.
Off topic – Who saw the catfight that went on between DKos & redstate yesterday? Man, talk about a food fight…
August 13th, 2005 at 11:33 amGiven the myriad miscalculations and severe blunders of this Administration in Iraq, what actions can the normal citizen take to support Iraqis? It is obvious that the only true way to bring a notion of a country to Iraq is by the Iraqis (this has not existed for many, many decades, if at all, possibly under Qassem for his short reign)….so my concern is that, although anti-war protests may make people feel good, it is practically uneffective, no positive gains in the life of the Iraqis. All of the effort that the citizenry of this country and others, in my opinion, should be focused on bettering the life of the Iraqis, and merely saying pull the troops out does not bring enough tangible benefit. Are there any suggestions/examples from poster’s on this site?
August 13th, 2005 at 11:52 amThe entire world is composed of “leftist kooks” now. The terrists have won! The terrists have won!
(leftist kook = realist)
“The Wheels are Coming Off It”
Gen Barry McCaffrey:
“It’s a race against time because by the end of this coming summer we can no longer sustain the presence we have now,” said retired Gen. Barry R. McCaffrey, who visited Iraq most recently in May and briefed Cheney, Rice and the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. “This thing, the wheels are coming off it.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8917944
August 13th, 2005 at 12:01 pmWhat’s your angle Strathmore? Supporting THIS administration ISN’T helping the Iraqis, if that’s your angle. BushCo blew it going in. Now others have to figure out a plan with the mess left to us by BushCo, because his didn’t work and isn’t working as we speak. Candy-coat it all you want, but it isn’t working.
Show me how protesting BushCo hinders the average Iraqi, especially moreso than the inept decisions of the current administration have.
August 13th, 2005 at 12:21 pmSkid,
I did not support this administration and will not, for many reasons….I understand all too well that it is not working, trust me….
My angle is that there must actually be tangible efforts that can be put into helping the average Iraqi, I did not say protesting hinders, but we only have so much energy and if it is expended to protest, it is not being spent in practical manners
But, you are looking through a tinted shade already, I do not except you to understand.
August 13th, 2005 at 12:34 pmProtests are effective. Others are up for re-election and they will listen to the people or they will be out of a job.
How does this help the Iraqi people? The Iraqi people can take care of themselves. They will have struggles like any other nation but they will survive without BuschCo dropping bombs on them every day.
The Iraqi’s like BushCo are now fighting over territory and oil is the reason for that. If they can’t come to an agreement that suits the entire nation then they are no better than Bushie and thats their problem.
Without BushCo’s presence at least the fight for the oil is by those who actually own it.
August 13th, 2005 at 12:37 pmAmazing perspective Susan, I can tell you are really not very familiar with Iraq.
August 13th, 2005 at 12:41 pmIn addition to that. It is not America’s job to build nations. It is our job to take care of ourselves first. Getting involved in religious wars is stupid and should never have happened in the first place.
We don’t need the middle east oil. We put men and women is space. We are the most industrious nation in the world. I’m sure we have the technology to survive without oil.
The middle east is a waste of our time and money. The billions we have spent trying to steal oil could have been used to develop new technology that would solve our dependency of oil.
August 13th, 2005 at 12:45 pmMy angle is that there must actually be tangible efforts that can be put into helping the average Iraqi.
Go there. That’s as tangible as it gets, mate.
August 13th, 2005 at 12:46 pmOf course you will die there, but… better you than us.
August 13th, 2005 at 12:46 pmYeah right Strath, you obviously haven’t read anything on Iraq. The drafting of the constitution isn’t getting finished because the Shiites want an oil rich region to be a theres, the Kurds want an oil rich region to be theres and the Sunni’s believe the oil should be for all Iraqi’s.
Get a clue, you have no idea what is going on in Iraq. I suppose you believe that the constitution will be drafted by Monday’s deadline…LOL!
August 13th, 2005 at 12:49 pmRight on Unsulted!…He wont go though because he’s a chickenhawk.
August 13th, 2005 at 12:50 pmWas it a religious war or a war for oil? You are not making much sense….I did not know the term progressive was synonymous with xenophobe
Unsulted,
August 13th, 2005 at 12:51 pmGreat suggestion, misses the point completely. Not all of us can/want to join the military. No American can go to Iraq obviously, without getting killed/kidnapped in a second. The question is how to benefit the Iraqis, without getting killed.
Susan,
One who attributes facts to others without knowledge is ignorant. Actually, I won’t go for many reasons…some more personal than others.
Where you feel uncomfortable about your knowledge of Iraq, I have no need to champion credentials about my experiencce with Iraqis, but at least I can say I supported an Iraqi family for over a year, and have worked with great Iraqis during this horrible time….but of course you do not care because you would rather see someone die who is trying to help out Iraqis instead of helping. Enjoy your world, it is quite bleak.
August 13th, 2005 at 12:56 pmSusan,
Theres?? Ma atkallam Arabiya? Could you write in English, min fadlak?
Allah wiyak.
August 13th, 2005 at 12:57 pmBushies war is for oil. The Iraqi’s have been fighting over religious differences and are stalled drafting the constitution because of religious difference (they are debating the role of Islam)… Iraqi’s just started fighting over the oil, a practice they learned from BushCo.
Excuse me for understanding the full scope of the war.
Get to Iraq and do something, here your nothing but a waste of skin Strath. And it’s not my job to educate you on Iraq.
August 13th, 2005 at 1:01 pmSusan
You are a little off here…but that is your right.
August 13th, 2005 at 1:03 pmIf I had a dick Strath, I tell you to suck it.
Your world is full of lies Strath. You couldn’t help an ice cube in 120 degree temperatures melt.
Get over yourself.
August 13th, 2005 at 1:04 pmAnd if you were to educate me on Iraq, I would have to forgot a lot of things….
August 13th, 2005 at 1:05 pmSusan
A’ashat eedak!! Mabrook, you are truly special…
Maa al selamma,
August 13th, 2005 at 1:07 pmYou’re a chickenhawk Strath, that makes you a liar and a traitor, your opinion means nothing to me or any other real American citizen.
Now get to Iraq and take your lousy intellect with you. You are a disgrace to America.
August 13th, 2005 at 1:18 pmTinted? What part of my comment is tinted, Strathmore? Now WE are expected to have a miraculous “fix all” solution to the mess BushCo created? It may be “hard work” invading a country that didn’t attack us, but I can assure you it is even harder work trying to fix a failed foreign policy that the authors of which won’t even dare to admit has failed and wasn’t palnned appropriately in the first place. Step aside.
Spare me your childish antics of projection and spell-check criticism. Grow up and act like an adult.
August 13th, 2005 at 1:35 pmWhat Strath wants us to do is to support the murder of innocent Iraqi’s AND solve their domestic problems.
We can’t solve their domestic problems when bombs are falling from the sky.
August 13th, 2005 at 1:52 pmOh, we are helping? I saw I documentary last night on Link TV about all the nuclear pollution left behind in the farmers fields in southern Iraq, very sad. The depleted uranium has contaminated many farmers fields forever, basically. They can not leave and are totally dependent on their meager crops. The problem is wide spread and their children are coming down with strange illnesses. The real DNA damage won’t show up for a couple of generations.
I hear our soldiers are suffering also. Agent Orange revisited.
Just listening to a few farmers speak of their situation simply reminded me of how I am just like them. The sad part is, that I need to be reminded……….after watching the MSM.
August 13th, 2005 at 1:54 pmSusan and Skid
May Allah bless your caring and wonderul perspectives.
Khwaa Hafaaz
August 13th, 2005 at 1:55 pmStrathmore , I’d rather be a decent muslim than a filthy animal NEOCON.
August 13th, 2005 at 1:59 pmI am a Muslim, and a non Bush supporter….
August 13th, 2005 at 2:01 pmYeah ,you are Muslim, just like the student from Berkley. The idiot with the black wife,the libertarian,the independent,the evasive fence sitter,the former environmentalist, the former liberal, the former dem.,the guy who lives in Boulder,Co., the guy who lets others do the talking then shoots down their arguments, etc. etc. keep wasting your time. Get a new tactic. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
August 13th, 2005 at 2:09 pmYea, and you typed that message…zzzz..
I am not really sure who these people are that you listed?
Laa il laah illah, Muhammad ur rasool Allah
Sedeeky, Fred
August 13th, 2005 at 2:13 pmThanks
August 13th, 2005 at 2:16 pmWell, I do have a dick. SO, Strath, suck my dick.
August 13th, 2005 at 2:16 pmAsif, SpudgeBoy. Not my thing, shukkran for the offer though and such a cerebral message board.
August 13th, 2005 at 2:18 pmThanks SpudgeBoy, I’ve been waiting for someone to step up to the plate.
August 13th, 2005 at 2:19 pmStrath, you put yourself above the rest of us, you cuss at us in arabic and then beg for our help. Bad approach.
August 13th, 2005 at 2:20 pmSusan,
Not one of my words have been a cuss word, by the way…they have been, “sorry”, “thank you” “congratulations” “Long live your hands” “May God save you”…
Keep an open mind if you can…
As salamu alaykum (that means peace be upon you, Susan)
August 13th, 2005 at 2:26 pmMy thoughts are not too attractive, so I should not employ cuss words, they are not very becoming as well. But it is sort of difficult to speak with all these things in my mouth !!!!!!
August 13th, 2005 at 2:28 pmAnd I said “please” and “speaking Arabic”?
August 13th, 2005 at 2:29 pmYou said, not us.
“But it is sort of difficult to speak with all these things in my mouth !!!!!! “
August 13th, 2005 at 2:30 pm“And I said “please†and “speaking Arabicâ€?”
I don’t care what you said in Arabic. Really I don’t.
August 13th, 2005 at 2:31 pmThen why do you respond, SpongeBob?
August 13th, 2005 at 2:32 pmMike Tyson is a muslim.
August 13th, 2005 at 2:51 pmWhy are you here Strath? Most of all, what is your point? Post that crap at redstate or LGF, see what happens. Why do it here?
August 13th, 2005 at 3:01 pmBush’s statement during an interview on Israeli TV late Friday was unusually harsh. He previously said diplomacy should be used to persuade Iran to suspend its nuclear program and if that failed then the U.N. Security Council should impose sanctions.
The U.S. government and others fear Iran’s nuclear work is secretly designed to produce nuclear weapons. Iran’s leaders deny that, saying it is only for the generation of electricity.
In the interview, Bush said the United States and Israel “are united in our objective to make sure that Iran does not have a weapon.”
But, he said, if diplomacy fails “all options are on the table.”
“The use of force is the last option for any president. You know, we’ve used force in the recent past to secure our country,” he said.
THERE YA GO, BUSH IS OPEN TO USING FORCE BEFORE “DIPLOMACY” AGAIN!
The only suggestion I have to combat this freak of nature other than to impeach, quit paying taxes and then the pugs can pay for this invasion themselves.
August 13th, 2005 at 3:12 pmSee Strath, we are the enlightened. We know the facts, we know the lies and the deciet. We are the ones preaching to the masses to wake up the American people to these facts.
If you want to convert people from one religion to another, you wouldn’t go after the preacher to get the people. You would go after their flock (their word, not mine) of believers.
So, what this means to you is that you should go to a moderate, fence sitter site and try to convert them to your ways. You won’t change us.
August 13th, 2005 at 3:13 pmNow what are we going to do for the Iranian people Strath? If I were them, I’d use those weapons before we get there.
Thats how much I believe they actually have weapons.
Does anybody know the answer to this question: Is it legal for the U.S. to attack Iran on the premise that they might be making weapons? With or without the Security Councils approval?
August 13th, 2005 at 3:23 pmSorry, dumb question. We’ll be attacked first (by the Saudi’s) and then it will be legal…
August 13th, 2005 at 3:25 pmLegal? We don’t need no stinking “legalities”… Its no more legal than Iraq.
August 13th, 2005 at 3:28 pmWhat if the Security Council approves, which I doubt they will?
August 13th, 2005 at 3:30 pmGermany’s already speaking out against it Susan.
August 13th, 2005 at 3:35 pmhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4149090.stm
Deja vu?
August 13th, 2005 at 3:36 pmTop 11 reasons not to meet with Cindy Sheehan.
11. Wednesday’s sore throat permits her classification as a bio-terrorist.
10. Sheriff’s search confirms that she arrived without requisite 2 kilograms of tribute-powder.
9. Trusted advisor and friend Rafael Palmeiro observed that Sheehan’s aggressive action may be a sign of steroid use.
8. There doesn’t appear to be any “Cindy Sheehan” in the House of Saud.
7. Giving hugs is what governors do.
6. Drawbridge is out of order.
5. It’s an Intelligent Design-thing, you wouldn’t understand.
4. He’s talking to people here so he doesn’t have to talk to her over there.
3. If he met twice with every mother who had lost a child in the war, he’d only get three weeks off in August.
2. If she really wants to ask a question, she’d go to journalism school, rise through the ranks of network reporters, get assigned to the White House and have her question not answered by Scott McClellan, like everybody else.
1. Okay, he’ll talk to her, but only if Dick Cheney can be present.
http://www.toostupidtobepresident.com/
August 13th, 2005 at 3:40 pmI would tend to think that if the US attacks Iran, without the world backing us (and I don’t mean Poland), we may be in for a world of hurt. What would happen if the Japanese put sanctions on importing SUVs into the US. What if we couldn’t buy high end A/V equipment if Germany sanctioned us. How about our computer hardware from Taiwan and China.
Since the US doesn’t manufacture shit anymore, we could be blasted back into the dark ages.
Remember, there were sanctions placed on PlayStation 2s, in order to keep them out of Saddam’s hands.
Why, because he could use them in a pre-emptive strike against another country. Much like the US did in March, 2003. Well, actually we now know that the CIA was training a squad of Iraqis, known as the Scorpions as early as January, 2002. The Scorpions set off bombs and other things to try and make Saddam think he had a revolution on his hands.
August 13th, 2005 at 3:42 pm“2. If she really wants to ask a question, she’d go to journalism school, rise through the ranks of network reporters, get assigned to the White House and have her question not answered by Scott McClellan, like everybody else.”
Or she could be a male prostitute and get a personal invite from the republican sausage fest.
August 13th, 2005 at 3:46 pm“Let’s take the military option off the table. We have seen it doesn’t work.”
Gerhard Schroeder
Oh my freaking god, Bushcon is starting World War III.
Any of you fucking moronic NeoCons here, read the above statement. That is the way the rest of the world views us. It just takes somebody (Germans) with balls to stand up and say it. You will now see the rest of them come out of the woodwork against the US. Good work you traitors to our national security.
National Security = The US not being attacked by every other country on the planet.
August 13th, 2005 at 3:50 pmUnsulted,
Great suggestion, misses the point completely. Not all of us can/want to join the military. No American can go to Iraq obviously, without getting killed/kidnapped in a second. The question is how to benefit the Iraqis, without getting killed.
You don’t have to join the military. Rachel Corrie went to Palestine and helped. Sure, she was killed, but not by the Palestinians. Maybe you are afraid the Americans would kill you. Racial profiling and all. Go away troll.
August 13th, 2005 at 4:05 pmI’m glad to hear that Germany is not jumping on Bushie’s bandwagon. I didn’t think the Germans or the French would but you never know these days.
Bushie was speaking on Israeli radio and said he is united with Israel on this. I never gave much thought to the relationship with Israel and Bush but this indicates that Bushie cares more about Israel than America.
If Bushie isn’t impeached, we could be looking at World War 3.
August 13th, 2005 at 4:33 pmSo how are we going to protest the so called Freedom March? I know we can’t participate as pre-registration with the Pentagon is necessary. The march isn’t for folks like us who understand that 9-11 had nothing to do with Iraq.
I heard the Washington Post is covering the shameless event and should be ashamed of themselves.
Subway is sponsoring it and Clint Black is entertaining.
Should we blast them all with e-mails or do we have something more creative for these war supporters?
August 13th, 2005 at 4:45 pmTruth just doesn’t cut it anymore, does it? Blur the boundaries of 9/11 and Iraq with a feel-good party honoring our fallen soldiers on 9/11. Where’s Toby Keith? Is NASCAR involved?
August 13th, 2005 at 4:58 pmThere is a counter gathering happening on the 24th. 12 hours of live music… visit some other sites you will find out about it. Guess which one will be “sold out” and SRO?
August 13th, 2005 at 5:05 pmRefreshments provided by Budwieser
GOP, Dems argue over beer money
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/08/sc.beermoney.ap/index.html
August 13th, 2005 at 5:07 pmBudwieser proves they are the beer with the highest alcohol content!
August 13th, 2005 at 5:15 pmNow, I never did like country music, so Clint Black supporting the freedom march doesn’t affect me all that much.
But, I can tell you that I will never eat another Subway sandwhich again. These businesses should stay outta shit like this. It only hurts their business.
I wonder if these companies will get out of politics once it starts to hit them in the pocket book.
I suggest everyone make a list of these companies that support BushCo and boycott them. Tell your friends to boycott them. Do it. If you go to a party and somebody offers you a Budwieser, don’t just turn it down, tell the other person why. We need to spread the truth about these scumbags and the companies that support his illegal war.
August 13th, 2005 at 5:28 pm#93, I also heard Bush’s comments that “all options are on the table” — he is rattling his saber again, the f**king chickenhawk. We should all be wary. The man is a maniac.
August 13th, 2005 at 5:32 pmI anticipate the rise of “freedom fries” again and tons of bratwursts being sent down the disposal. I don’t think the world or the UN will go along with action against Iran, certainly not with the charge being sounded by the cowboy in the Whtie House.
August 13th, 2005 at 5:36 pmI thought the country/western/musical was going to be held on 9/11 to “celebrate” the anniversary — this according to tasteless and crass Rumsfeld.
August 13th, 2005 at 5:39 pmBut you are saying there is an event on the 24th too?
No matter who attacks us next, its Iran’s fault.
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=6734
August 13th, 2005 at 5:41 pmSeptember 24th there is suppoed to be a march on Washington D.C. for those people apposed to the war. Maybe somebody can post a link for more information.
August 13th, 2005 at 5:42 pmSorry to post off topic, but I just couldn’t believe my freaking eyes when I read this:
Airline Security Changes Planned
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/12/AR2005081201557.html
Could it be that we are actually being given back some of our privacy when it comes to airline travel. Is there actually somebody at the TSA that realizes how overboard the Bush administration went when they started taking our rights away after 9/11?
I am literally stunned.
Now watch this shit get blocked.
August 13th, 2005 at 7:04 pm#116, thanks,
August 13th, 2005 at 7:13 pmI am thinking of traveling to DC for the 24th demonstration against the war, so I am particularly curious as to whether there is going to be a counter demonstration on the same day.
If anyone here has any additional info, I’d be pleased.
We have to mention the best quote out of an August 05 Hardball interview: When Mrs. Palmer, mother of fallen Lance Corporal Edward Schroeder, was asked about the overall conduct of the war by Bush and his administration she replied with an incredible insight, “Well…I personally believe that since it’s not working, then we have to make a change. It’s not worth the sacrifice if it’s just more bodies onto the heap. You know like president Bush said he wanted to `stay the course and honor the memory of the ones who died by continuing to fight.’ If it didn’t work before why does fighting more…you know… do the same thing over and over that’s the- expecting different results is… I think the explanation of insanity.”
Enough said!
Ten hut! Patriot-mom and dad, Mrs. Palmer and Mr. Schroeder on deck! Salute!
Tim, TJ, John, Shelly, Mike, Eduardo and the rest of us at ground zero….
August 14th, 2005 at 2:20 amGood find Mark. Mrs. Palmer is 100% correct. That is the definition of insanity.
Did you see this quote from the German chancler regarding Bushes “All options are on the table” comment regarding Iran.
“Let’s take the military option off the table. We have seen it doesn’t work.â€
August 14th, 2005 at 1:33 pmGerhard Schroeder
#119 Mark
August 14th, 2005 at 2:13 pmThanks. You must be bleary-eyed posting this great find at that hour of the morning. Caffeine is a good thing.
I have a hard time watching Matthews interrupt, skew and otherwise be incredibly rude to his guests that I miss a good interview now and then.
Sept.11 in New York City there will be a march past the New York Times building and other media outlets to end the media blackout concerning 9/11. we deserve the real story, not the whitewash bullshit the 9/11 Omission Report fed us. if you are in New York City on Sept.11, please make a point to show up and add your support. we deserve the truth about 9/11.
August 14th, 2005 at 3:15 pmhttp://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20050811235833758
August 14th, 2005 at 3:18 pmGood luck, Chris. An appropriate site for a demonstration against what passes as journalism today.
August 14th, 2005 at 8:12 pmI hope your group makes a difference.
votetoimpeach.org along with other antiwar groups have organized the demonstration on Sept. 24th.
Everything you need to know is at votetoimpeach.org
Sign up for their e-mails and you will be notified of their events. They offer transportation from many cities to D.C.
Sign the petition too!
August 15th, 2005 at 1:38 pmChristian Mp3 Music News
(Blogger now has backlinks – very similar to the trackback feature in Movable Type.A Trackback is one of three types of Linkbacks, methods
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