Bush Drawing All the Wrong Analogies
Bush Drawing All the Wrong Analogies
Today in a speech before the Veterans of Foreign Wars in Salt Lake City, President Bush drew an analogy between the U.S. forces’ ongoing efforts in Iraq and a previous generation’s struggle in World War II:
From the beaches of Normandy to the snows of Korea, courageous Americans gave their lives so others could live in freedom. Since the morning of September the 11th, we have known that the war on terror would require great sacrifice, as well. [8/22/05]
Previously, Bush has called on the memories of the Revolutionary War, World War I, the Korean War, and even the Civil War to bolster support for the Iraq war effort.
Predictably, Bush has never compared the current conflict to Vietnam. But Senator Chuck Hagel, a decorated veteran of that conflict, suggests that’s the war from which we should be drawing lessons:
“We’re past that stage now because now we are locked into a bogged-down problem not unsimilar, dissimilar to where we were in Vietnam,” Hagel said. “The longer we stay, the more problems we’re going to have.
Invoking World War II and Korea
Bush: “From the beaches of Normandy to the snows of Korea, courageous Americans gave their lives so others could live in freedom. Since the morning of September the 11th, we have known that the war on terror would require great sacrifice, as well.” [8/22/05]
Invoking the Revoluationary War
Bush: “Our Union was preserved through the costly battles of the Civil War — including one at Vicksburg that ended on Independence Day, 1863… Today, a new generation of Americans is defending our freedom against determined enemies.” [7/2/05]
Invoking World War I
Bush: “When we see tyranny, we must resist and free people from tyranny. And we must remember the lessons of Europe, and that is, democracies are able to live peacefully side by side; a part of the world that — where there was war after war, where thousands of American soldiers had died, not only in World War I and World War II, is now whole, free and peaceful, because of the spread of democracy.” [5/13/05]
Invoking the Civil War
Bush: “During that hot summer in Philadelphia more than 200 years ago, from our desperate fight for independence to the darkest days of a civil war, to the hard-fought battles of the 20th century, there were many chances to lose our heart, our nerve, or our way.” [7/4/05]
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“Like the French-Indian War, our brave young soldiers…”
August 22nd, 2005 at 7:28 pmDown with pendejos!
August 22nd, 2005 at 7:32 pmLike the Roman conquest of Gaul…
August 22nd, 2005 at 7:34 pmWhat about the crusades, has he
August 22nd, 2005 at 7:34 pmcompared to them yet?
DUHbya just demonstrated another of the problems of his “Intelligent Designer”–the crossing of dissimilar species. DUHbya again let his ALIGATOR mouth overlaod his HUMMINGBIRD ass.
August 22nd, 2005 at 7:34 pmDude MUST be medicated.
August 22nd, 2005 at 7:43 pmWhat a total embarrassment it is to have this clown as someone the world sees as our representative.
Keith H.,
August 22nd, 2005 at 7:45 pmI could not agree more.
#4, yes, the crusades was one of the first analogies he made. big oopsie-doodle there!
August 22nd, 2005 at 7:47 pmThis conflict/war is not Vietnam. We’re not fighting an organized military representing a nation. Our men and women in Iraq are not drafted (40+% were in Vietnam). The casualty rate is far lower than Vietnam. The fighting force in Iraq is 300,000-400,000 less than Vietnam while Iraq is a much larger country. The list goes on…
I challenge anyone to make a logical comparison to Vietnam, even this Hagle who so many veterans disagree with on this issue.
August 22nd, 2005 at 7:54 pmAlso, no punji sticks in Iraq!
August 22nd, 2005 at 7:57 pmAnd no nasty VD.
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:03 pmThis can’t possibly be the same as Vietnam if the number of forces are different. And stop-loss doesn’t count as a draft. It’s totally different.
Besides, it’s not like the insurgents are well-organized or well-funded with oil money or representing a foreign (Iranian) government. In Vietnam, we faced an organized army wearing uniforms, not an invisible enemy who kept suckerpunching us with small weapons and explosives and then melted back into the civilian population.
Another difference: In South Vietnam, the voter turnout was slightly higher.
Thanks for clearing that up, Colt.
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:05 pmActually, according to the memoirs coming out, the VD is there. Sex is a universal language after all.
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:06 pmYou didn’t address the casualty rate.
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:11 pmIran, Syria, Jordan, so-on. The funding doesn’t even come close to Russia and China’s funding of N.V. Nice try.
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:15 pmColt Formundah,
“40% were in Vietnam.” I’m sorry, say that again?!
According to the VA, the war ended in 1975. Therefore if you were in Vietnam in 1975 and were 18, you would be 48 years old today.
So are you saying that 40% of our armed forces in Iraq are 48 years old or older? That they have spent more then 30 years in the service (or have a huge amount of “broken time”)? Where are you getting the figures to support your statement?
Here is a logical comparison: Neither war had/has a clear and defined objective.
Any grunt or commander in the field or general in the offices below the chiefs of staff during the Vietnam War will tell you that. The war in Iraq also has no clear and defined objective. We went in to stop “them” from attacking “us” with WMD only to find that “they” had been telling “us” the truth all this time (that they had destroyed it all). So what is the objective today?
Shall I go on and list more?
Chomsky writes: “States are not moral agents”
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:15 pmI think the comparison people make between Iraq and Viet Nam, is the senseless loss of life, the denial of our military leaders, the arrogrance of our government. The promotion of personnel way beyond their abilities and/or intelligence. The waste, the death, the destruction. Killing of civilans, either purposely or accidentally. The physical and mental damage to the soldiers, who came home. The trauma and suicide of men who could no longer deal with ‘normal’. This is your comparison to Viet Nam (and to other wars). War is about one thing, and one thing only, DEATH. Viet Nam was botched, so is this war. I only hope 30 years from now, someone such as Robert McNamara doesn’t come out and tell you, Yeez, we were wrong, we never should of invaded Iraq!’
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:17 pmCasualty rate for what period in Vietnam? The first two years?
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:18 pmI could see Rumsfeld making that movie.
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:18 pmGood post Nancy.
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:20 pmI was going to till the same
ground, but you did a much better
job than I would have.
I find myself without patience
at this point.
SSDD — Same Speech, Different Day.
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:25 pmI watched a part of that speech today. I tried to watch the whole thing, but had to stop occasionally to tear out my hair. He actually stumbled a bit when mentioning, for the first time, the number of Iraq and Afghanistan war dead. Is it just me, maybe just wishful thinking, or was the applause a bit lukewarm?
How long did Viet Nam last? The Iraq “war” ain’t over yet.
And on the side, did you mean VD or VC? That one about killed me, and not in the STD way.
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:27 pmZoo, I give you credit.
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:28 pmI can’t listen to him anymore.
It’s like taking steel wool
to the brain.
The comparison with Vietnam – is not the orginization/lack thereof of the enemy. The compariosn is the civilian leadership dictating the war. Firing Shenseski (sp?) for example. Also the quagmire aspect of it – an un-winnable war and the lack of support for it here at home. The number of dead have not approached vietnam to be sure, but that is smallconsolation for the close to 1900 families that have lost a soldier there. And of course the absolue stubborness of the this adminstration.
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:28 pmElvis, 40+% of those that fought in Vietnam were drafted. Our forces in Iraq are %100 volunteer. That’s a fact. Now go take some sleeping pills.
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:28 pmBe nice Colt. Elvis just
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:31 pmread it wrong.
BTW, Don’t forget the stop-loss.
not volunteered – recruited.
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:31 pmMy nephew just “joined” after constant harrasment by a recruiter. He is a diagnosed schizophrenic and they took him anyway.
Stop-loss blurs the definition of volunteer.
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:32 pmThanks #19 Sometimes a person has to hold onto his beliefs, regardess of what the truth is. For without his beliefs, he is nothing, and MAN cannot live with the idea he is nothing. So next time you start to lose patience, remember you could be arguing with nothing :)
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:33 pmi didnt see his speech. can anyone tell me how many times he said 9/11?
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:34 pmUh… somebody better switch around the “Revolutionary War” and “Civil War” titles above the “invoked” quotes. They’re reversed.
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:44 pmYeah Nate, I noticed too, but
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:47 pmsince they were all in there,
I decided it was a minor issue.
3 words Colt no exit strategy. That is like ‘nam. I am 62 years old and I lost a lot of friends there because the gov’t had no way out. Now we have a gov’t run by a total a-hole who takes a five week vacation while our men and women are dying. Did you see the polls today — Nixon had higher marks than this guy has!
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:47 pmKen, I have been wondering how
people can still support Bush.
I mean the polls are bad, but
the base still seems secure.
Is it that:
1) They can’t admit a mistake?
2) They are afraid the house of cards
will tumble?
3) That the gravy train will end for
ranting right-wing nutjobs?
4) That you can’t fight if you don’t
believe in the leader?
I know some otherwise reasonable people
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:51 pmwho still (at least to me) support the
Cheney administration.
Our family got word yesterday that my cousin’s husband — who has been a reservist for about 15 years, did a year-long hitch in Afghanistan, and was due to muster out of the reserves in December — has been involuntarily extended until 2031 (that’s not a typo), and will be returning to the Middle East (definitely not Afghanistan, probably Iraq) in November.
“Our forces in Iraq are 100% volunteer”?
Not hardly. He did not volunteer for this. We in his family did not volunteer for this.
BTW, this particular soldier is a lifelong Republican who could not bring himself to vote for Bush last year.
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:52 pm2031? WTF?!?
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:55 pm2031-2005=26 years!
August 22nd, 2005 at 8:55 pmIf he was already in for 15, that
makes 41 years. If he joined at
20 (just to make it easy) that’s
61 years old at the end.
Is this really true?
You people shouldn’t be to hard on the prez, he is just mouthing what someone told him say. You got to get deeper than the prez to find the real villians. The VFW must be with them as they sat through the whole speach and didn’t boo him once. But then again maybe they had thier hearing aid turned off.
August 22nd, 2005 at 9:02 pmThe 60s are back, but worse. It’s time to off the pigs.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/22/13030/7546
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/08/22.html#a4577
August 22nd, 2005 at 9:02 pmNavy Vet, Is it better to be
August 22nd, 2005 at 9:04 pmevil and doing your own bidding
or to be someone’s puppet?
Colt Formundah
Stupid pig. It’s fromundah. Fromundah cheese that you like so well. Otherwise known as Jeff Gannon’s smegma.
August 22nd, 2005 at 9:04 pmThis certain gives new meaning to the term ‘lifer’, even the penal system gives parole once and awhile.
August 22nd, 2005 at 9:07 pm#22 – I’ve actually been considering a wire brush recently…
August 22nd, 2005 at 9:23 pmmarblex, get over to the Bush/Nixon poll numbers post. we have some non-believers.
August 22nd, 2005 at 9:27 pmDoes Bushie actually think he’s going to change the peoples minds when he is only talking to people who already agree with him?
He really blew it with this most recent waste of tax dollars. He talks to the wrong people, duh.
August 22nd, 2005 at 9:54 pmSorry about that, I did totaly read that wrong.
August 22nd, 2005 at 10:06 pmWe’ll forgive you Elvis
August 22nd, 2005 at 10:09 pm#8
If you don’t think we are fighting the Iraq Army, you are fooling yourself. Do you not remember that we were told that Iraq has one of the largest militaries in the world? Do you? What happened to that huge army we were told about? They put on civilian clothing and are fighting us tooth and nail to try and keep their country and they are doing a pretty good job of it.
This is the same problem we had in Vietnam. We send our military to another country and have them fight an invisible army. The troops in Vietnam had no idea who was the good guy and who was the bad guy. You tell me how to determine the difference between a North Vietnamese and South Vietnamese person. Now tell me how to tell the difference between an Iraqi civilian and an Iraqi soldier.
August 22nd, 2005 at 10:15 pm#16-Nancy L.
Well written, thanks for saying what I couldn’t come close to!!!
August 22nd, 2005 at 10:30 pmThe comparison between Iraq and Vietnam is obvious. No real reason for war to begin with, huge loss of soldiers, a president in denial who keeps saying the U.S. must be there longer for things to get better when everyone else sees that they are getting worse.
August 22nd, 2005 at 10:59 pmWhy has Bush not made this comparison? Because I think he is one of the only people in this country who believes this war is legit. If he makes the Vietnam comparison it will be all over.
I know that he knows it is an obvious comparison. Will he ever admit it? Of course not.
Nice posts, Nancy.
August 22nd, 2005 at 11:01 pmDoes he really believe he is going to sway anyone’s opinion? He is unrealistic, but then again, he has been unrealistic from day one, and unintelligible, and untruthful, and unworthy, and untrustworthy, and underhanded, and unbearable, and unbalanced, and unbending, and unconscionable.
Bush never compared the war in Iraq, to the Vietnam War. Probably with good reason, (both became quagmires, with no solution to the ending of those two wars). I can understand that as Americans, you always make comparisons with Vietnam, and justifiably so.
But it is the comparison that Bush makes between Iraq and with the two world wars, (The Great War and The Second World War). That as a Brit upsets me the most.
How dare Bush, how dare he. Have the temerity to compare Iraq, with two ‘World Wars’ where millions of people perished.
It makes me angry and sick to the pit of my stomach that George W. Bush. Can draw such comparisons, with his ‘War On Terror’, to that of defeating Germany in two world wars. And stopping Nazi Germany, Adolf Hitler and the Third Reich from invading the world.
We have just celebrated the end of the WWII both in Europe, and only this week victory over Japan VJ Day. The ex-service men who marched together, to commemorate the ending of these great conflicts, in the last two months, (probably for the last time).
Are the heroes, they sacrificed themselves, for a noble cause, to overthrow tyranny, fascism and Nazism.
There the true heroes, and should be remembered for their willingness to die for their countries, so that America and Europe could live free from ‘Evil’.
So Bush don’t you ever, ever compare your ‘war’, with those that have gone before. There are ‘just wars’ that need to be fought, so that people may know freedom in their lives.
And then there are the Bush and the Neo-cons ‘War On Terror’. A war that is unjustified, which is based on false intelligence and based wholly on deceit and a lie.
So next time you feel the urge to make comparisons. Engage you brain, before opening your big Neo-conservative gob, (mouth). Or get yourself better speechwriters, who have an understanding of World History, (and not the Conservative American version of it).
August 22nd, 2005 at 11:29 pmMr. Caine,
Amen.
Long live the Queen!
August 22nd, 2005 at 11:57 pmThe man has misunderestimated the American People.
August 23rd, 2005 at 12:16 amErrol Morris – The Fog of War
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-02,GGLD:en&q=Fog+of+War
Nancy speaks the truth. See that film. It’s an interview with McNamara.
August 23rd, 2005 at 12:20 amhttp://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7218.shtml
“Buy beleaguered, overworked White House aides enough drinks and they tell a sordid tale of an administration under siege, beset by bitter staff infighting and led by a man whose mood swings suggest paranoia bordering on schizophrenia. They describe a President whose public persona masks an angry, obscenity-spouting man who berates staff, unleashes tirades against those who disagree with him and ends meetings in the Oval Office with ‘Get out of here!’
In fact, George W. Bush’s mood swings have become so drastic that White House emails often contain ‘weather reports’ to warn of the President’s demeanor. ‘Calm seas’ means Bush is calm while ‘tornado alert’ is a warning that he is pissed at the world.
Decreasing job approval ratings and increased criticism within his own party drives the President’s paranoia even higher. Bush, in a meeting with senior advisors, called Senator Majority Leader Bill Frist a ‘god-damned traitor’ for opposing him on stem-cell research. ‘There’s real concern in the West Wing that the President is losing it,’ a high-level aide told me recently.
‘I was really very unsettled by him and I started watching everything he did and reading what he wrote and watching him on videotape. I felt he was disturbed,’ (psychiatrist) Dr. Justin Frank said. ‘He fits the profile of a former drinker whose alcoholism has been arrested but not treated…’”
August 23rd, 2005 at 12:38 am#51 nick caine Well said. Bush has to compare this war with something. He doesn’t dare to use Viet Nam, since not all wounds have healed, and it could come back and bite him in the presidential a**. The World Wars are the Great Wars. Men came home as heroes, ticker tape parades, etc. Most American were behind the wars, especially after Pearl Harbor.
August 23rd, 2005 at 12:50 amNow please don’t try to compare Pearl Harbor and 911. If they were similar, then it would of been… Japan bombed Peal Harbor, we struck back at the enemy, the Japanese. Then we decided to take a side trip and invaded Russia, cause Stalin was a bad boy.
Bush’s report card on Iraq is one of complete failure.
In contrast, here’s a Democratic 10-Point Plan for Iraq.
August 23rd, 2005 at 12:52 amCheney recently compared our troops in Iraq to Washington’s Continental army. The better comparison would have been to the British Redcoats in that at the time, they were the world’s most well-equipped, best trained army fighting insurgents in a foreign land.
August 23rd, 2005 at 3:47 am#8 I challenge anyone to make a logical comparison to Vietnam, even this Hagle who so many veterans disagree with on this issue.
Okay, I’ll give it a try:
1) Both were started over lies (Gulf of Tonkin incident, WMD)
August 23rd, 2005 at 7:06 am2) Both fought in cultures we have little understanding of
3) Both justified by the same spurious reasoning (Domino theories)
4) In both, the actual state of affairs on the ground was hidden
from the American public
5) In both, the civilian leadership botched the war and refused to admit mistakes
6) In both, we lost the hearts and minds of the native
civilians.
#8 I challenge anyone to make a logical comparison to Vietnam, even this Hagle who so many veterans disagree with on this issue.
Comment by Colt Formundah — August 22, 2005 @ 7:54 pm
Neither country attacked us in any way, yet we invaded their homelands on false pretexts and tried to force “our way of life” down their throats at the point of a gun barrel, not unlike Chairman Mao advised in his Little Red Book, because we know what’s best for the entire world. Does that about cover it, Sparky? You ignorant little POS.
August 23rd, 2005 at 8:25 amPound for pound, America’s “greatest” wars were Panama and Grenada. I think Bush is missing the boat by not invoking swift, clean victories like these. Oh, and of course, the annihilation of the Seminoles.
August 23rd, 2005 at 9:11 amClearly there can be no comparison between Iraq and Vietnam.
1) Iraq starts with an “I”. Vietnam starts with a “V”.
2) Iraq has sand. Vietnam has, like, jungles and stuff.
3) “Vietnam” has 75% more letters in its name.
So there.
August 23rd, 2005 at 9:26 amWhy on Earth is everyone pulling their hair out over the Iraq/Vietnam analogy? Isn’t it enough that Iraq is a bloody mess? A quagmire? People keep saying that it’s not like Vietnam because our guys aren’t dying at the same rate. Isn’t the fact that our guys are dying AT ALL the point of this argument? Face it, invading Iraq was a monumental blunder that is being paid for with the blood of innocents. Justifying it by pointing out low casualty rates is pretty sinister. Does that mean that the excusability of an unjust war is directly proportional to the rate of survival amongst the soldiers who participate?
For what it’s worth, Iraq is just like Vietnam. All the pro-war crowd have left in this argument is that one is a desert full of Muslims and one was a jungle full of VC commies. And I suppose that’s all they really want to know. I mean, who waging an irrational war wants to make their ‘enemies’ to sound like human beings?
August 23rd, 2005 at 9:32 am#51,
August 23rd, 2005 at 9:41 amNice post from across the pond — you have a more clear perception than many Americans.
With Bush mentioning every war but Vietnam, those Swiftboat guys better watch their ass. With the military ready to enlist the over-40 bunch, the Geezer Brigade might not be far behind.
August 23rd, 2005 at 9:47 amAnother parallel:
Vietnam : “We have to destroy the village in order to save it”
Iraq: Fallujah
August 23rd, 2005 at 10:20 amhttp://www.empirenotes.org/fallujah.html
Thanks, Bobby. I’ll be modest and say that it’s sort of an emotional distance that gives perspective. It’s easy for us to judge the war harshly when we’ve invested far less manpower and sacrificed much less blood and treasure.
August 23rd, 2005 at 10:22 amAs a former Marine, I already know the honor that are soldiers have, I don’t need a war dodger like George Bush to tell me. Bush proved long ago that he cares nothing for our soldiers, if he did he wouldn’t have involved them in a pointless personal war between himself and Saddam Hussien.
The US Military is not some tool for a cowardly President to use for his own personal grievences.
Bush has failed our soldiers with idiotic planning, no exit strategy, and by not properly equipping them.
REAL soldiers like John Kerry need to rally Democrates and unify thier message on getting our soldiers out of Iraq, or coming up with a plan to win in Iraq.
August 23rd, 2005 at 10:34 amhttp://www.ejscoffeelounge.us/WhatWouldYouDo.mp3
August 23rd, 2005 at 10:50 amWhatever you do George, don’t compare this to any war that actually involved Baghdad over the past centuries.
That would be bad for morale.
August 23rd, 2005 at 11:00 amWait, did he compare this to the American Revolution?
Wasn’t that the one where we kicked out the occupying army (despite their superior resources) and built a government our damn selves?
I’m not sure if that’s the message he wants to convey right now.
August 23rd, 2005 at 11:23 amGeorge Bush, First Presidential Debate vs. Al Gore, October 3, 2000:
MODERATOR: New question. How would you go about as president deciding when it was in the national interest to use U.S. force, generally?
BUSH: Well, if it’s in our vital national interest, and that means whether our territory is threatened or people could be harmed, whether or not the alliances are — our defense alliances are threatened, whether or not our friends in the Middle East are threatened. That would be a time to seriously consider the use of force. Secondly, whether or not the mission was clear. Whether or not it was a clear understanding as to what the mission would be. Thirdly, whether or not we were prepared and trained to win. Whether or not our forces were of high morale and high standing and well-equipped. And finally, whether or not there was an exit strategy. I would take the use of force very seriously. I would be guarded in my approach. I don’t think we can be all things to all people in the world. I think we’ve got to be very careful when we commit our troops. The vice president and I have a disagreement about the use of troops. He believes in nation building. I would be very careful about using our troops as nation builders. I believe the role of the military is to fight and win war and therefore prevent war from happening in the first place. So I would take my responsibility seriously. And it starts with making sure we rebuild our military power. Morale in today’s military is too low. We’re having trouble meeting recruiting goals. We met the goals this year, but in the previous years we have not met recruiting goals. Some of our troops are not well-equipped. I believe we’re overextended in too many places. And therefore I want to rebuild the military power. It starts with a billion dollar pay raise for the men and women who wear the uniform. A billion dollars more than the president recently signed into law. It’s to make sure our troops are well-housed and well-equipped. Bonus plans to keep some of our high-skilled folks in the services and a commander in chief that sets the mission to fight and win war and prevent war from happening in the first place.
August 23rd, 2005 at 11:43 amDevin,
What makes you think we are losing in Iraq? The only victory I see, is the left in this country surrendering and wanting out. We have passed sovereign control back to the Iraqi people. They have held the first free elections last January and Iraq within a few hours or days will have a constitution that will unify the nation. Is it perfect. No. But neither was our constitution either, hence all of amendments that have been added to it. I just don’t understand the liberals in this country. They used to stand for human rights and freedom. What happened. Here we have liberated 25 million people and now they have a chance to enjoy the same freedom as we do. Would you rather they go back to some dictatorship like Sadam? Where there was mass murder, rapes, torture, no rights for women etc. etc. Whether or not we got into Iraq because of bad intelligence, we are there now. I say we stay the course and finish the job!
August 23rd, 2005 at 11:57 amall the wrong analogies? do you argue your point or what? not that i see.
August 23rd, 2005 at 12:20 pmRed,
Iraq never attacked the United States. Iraq was a sovereign nation and we had no business whatsoever to invade the country. We cannot claim it was to find WMD, because there wasn’t any there, and we now know the CIA knew this before hand. We cannot claim it was to bring freedom to Iraq, because we let fascism, death and destruction run free in so many other places, like Darfur, the Congo etc.
The war was/is about money. Plain and simple. The war’s intent is to contain the second largest oil supply in the world as the worlds supply dwindles. The wars intent was/is to bring billions of dollars to major corporations. The wars intent was/is to free up drug trafficking and money laundering efforts in the middle east (which has sky rocketed since the invasion).
People, (liberal or not) who stand for human rights and freedom don’t say “we want human rights and freedom, so kill everyone who resists.”
The people were better off under Saddam then they are now. And they were FAR better off under Saddam before our sanctions, then they are now.
Its not that “we got into Iraq because of bad intelligence” that sickens the people you “don’t understand.” It’s that we were lied to. We were told we are doing this for reason A, and we were actually doing it for reasons X, Y, and Z, and the people who put us into this war knew it from the get go.
What course specifically would you have us stay on? What “job” should we finish? “Stay the course and finish the job!” are quotes that come right from the people who lied to you. Why are you so willing to listen and blindly follow them? They are slaughtering innocent people, including Americans, in your name.
August 23rd, 2005 at 12:24 pmRed, do you think the Iraqis give a flying **** about a new constitution when they have no electricity, no jobs, no sewage control, no security, the women are threatened as they try to go about their jobs for not being covered up? They are dying at a rate of about one London bombing every two days, one 9-11 every 100 days. Is that the kind of liberation you are talking about? The women had far more rights under secular Saddam than they will ever have under this US-appeased theocracy. US soldiers are fighting and dying so that their leaders can let the Iraqis have an Islamic theocracy? Is that ’supporting the troops’?
You miss the point about ‘libruls’ – they are avocating for the basic rights that ‘Amurka’ was founded upon to be available freely to all, without prejudice, because ‘Amurka’s’ long-term security and well-being depends on it not acting like a fascist empire everywhere else in the world.
August 23rd, 2005 at 12:29 pmRed, from what I hear, Iraqi streets are rivers of raw sewage, the life expectancy has regressed back to the stone age, electricity 4 hours a day if you’re lucky (and that’s in 130 degre heat), a booming kidnap for ransom industry, honor killings, revenge killings, tribal warfare, 60 terrorist attacks every day, and summary execution for anyone who talks to Americans.
They must be so grateful. Why don’t you go and receive your kudos?
August 23rd, 2005 at 12:53 pmIn fact, now that we have “Mission Accomplished” if we could convince everyone who voted for Bush in 2004 to go to Iraq and hand out pro-Bush bumper stickers and receive the thanks Iraqis so desperately want to give them, we could easily outvote the survivors in 2006.
August 23rd, 2005 at 1:11 pmIf any of that were true, why haven’t the Iraqis started a civil war? I would think that if another country came in and were doing what you propose, I would be attacking them. This is not case as the insurgents cannot even find enough Iraqis willing to fight for them. They have to import them from Syria and other Mideast countries. If the Iraqi citizens are so disguntled, then why did 60% of them vote? 60%! That is an amazing turnout given that they had to take their own lives into their hands to vote. It makes me sick to see how unpatriotic the left has become in this country. They are more willing to side with the enemy than Bush. You never saw the right protest any of Clinton’s military moves in Kosovo or Somalia. We supported our troops regardless if we liked their leader at the time. What if the Republicans opposed FDR during WWII like the left is doing today. Would we be speaking German? You can bet we would.
August 23rd, 2005 at 1:37 pmYou see Red, there is so much more information out there about what is truly going on in the world, outside of what mass media is paid to tell you, and what those who support this effort want you to know. Posts 74 and 75 are evidence of that.
Now, before you dismiss it as “left-winged mumbo-jumbo,” imagine for a second that it was true…if it were, how would you feel? Dwell in that area for 5 minutes…where what you read in 74 and 75 were actually true…
Now, guess what…you can stop imagining it, because it is. You are being lied to; you are being force fed “news” that really doesn’t touch on the issues at all.
I hope that the evidence that you are at least visiting this site is a good sign, a sign that you are at willing to read it. Now, the questions are, are you willing to listen? And what are you going to do about it?
Chomsky writes: “States are not moral agents.”
August 23rd, 2005 at 1:39 pmElvis,
Again, I ask if those statements are true, why don’t the Iraqi people start a civil war? The MSM only releases information that fit their agenda. This is why there is not a flood of good news coming from Iraq. Believe what you want to believe. I know that I am on the side of history that is right.
August 23rd, 2005 at 1:42 pmElvis,
I believe you are mistaken if the “news” is being force fed. There is a liberal bias in the MSM. Always has been but may not always be.
I think you are under the wrong impression as why I come to this site. I don’t come here for any news. I come here for enjoyment. Its fun to read how whacked out the left has become. I just want to see where some of the ideas may come from. This “think tank” if you can call it that, it’s really more a place to bash Bush and the Republican party, should be a place where ideas could originate on how to make the country more secure, reinvent social security and take on some of the more serious problems that Bush is already taking care of.
I know what the real truth is and I know Bush is right.
August 23rd, 2005 at 1:53 pmRed
August 23rd, 2005 at 2:00 pmA flood of good news from Iraq. Yah right! Why don’t you go there and report back.
I think the left in this country wants the U.S. to lose in Iraq. They seem to think that it is another Vietnam. But they are wrong. There is no draft. The men and women going over to Iraq volunteered to serve our country. Those that did so before the war started knew that they could someday end up in harm’s way. They are fighting for our freedoms everyday. When is the left going to get it? Freedom is not free. Our past wars were fought to protect our freedom. They have the right and can protest because of those that paid the ultimate price before them. I feel that I am wasting my time here trying to convince anyone of this. Your minds have been too polluted by your college professors. Well, its time to grow up and realize their lies.
August 23rd, 2005 at 2:08 pm#79, over on another thread is a discussion of why the SCLM is dodgin Darfur for “missing white girl”. The SCLM are after money: they are just piles of money interrested in becoming bigger piles – they don’t care how or whether what they do is part of a wider role in Amurkan government.
The reason they don’t report good news is that there is probably none to report. And dead Iraqis don’t sell more Dodge trucks so I think you Amurkans don’t get even half the picture. No white reporters tend to leave the green zone. Read some Al-Jazeera or some Dahr Ismail or Robert Fisk.
A significant part of the serious Iraq watchers think the civil war is already underway. Even some US generals (help me with the link people) think that the violence will be the same if the US leaves tomorrow. The BBC too thinks the war has already started: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4692881.stm
It’s not a question of belief, it is a question of facts. You know Bush is right? About what?
August 23rd, 2005 at 2:15 pmRed
August 23rd, 2005 at 2:18 pmTell that bs to my son’s buddies who joined up last year because they are too poor to go to college. Tell that to their mothers when they come home in a box. When you turn off the machine wired to your head and start thinking on your own, maybe you’ll have something real to say.
Red
August 23rd, 2005 at 2:21 pmOur past wars were fought to make the rich richer. Go read up on PRescott Bush’s ownership of the Silesian Mining company in Poland during WWII, that was part of the Aushwitz slave labor camp complex, and used slave labor to mine. Go read up on how Prescott Bush funnelled money to Hitler’s SS in the 1930s to help hitler build up a political force that could take over Germany and make Europe free for corporations to use slave labor. They were all hot for Hitler. Just like they were all hot for Saddam. You are so ignorant it hurts. But I don’t put up with lies like yours, not when my son’s life is involved. Before you spew out that propaganda get some knowledge.
Red
August 23rd, 2005 at 2:29 pmHere’s another one for you – corporate America and the nazis http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/
But maybe you can’t handle the truth.
Thirty years from now the Iraq War won’t be mentioned either, especially by the PTSD-afflicted street people.
August 23rd, 2005 at 2:47 pmAgain, I ask if those statements are true, why don’t the Iraqi people start a civil war?
Because they have a common enemy right now. Us.
August 23rd, 2005 at 3:04 pmWhen the US leaves, sooner or later, with only 1800 soldiers dead or 55,000 dead, Iraq will disappear and reconfigure in pre-colonial structure – the Shia will combine with Iranian shia, the Sunni will combine with saudi arabian and Pakistan sunni. IRaq is a fiction created by colonial powers. Fought over by colonial powers, destroyed by colonial powers. In the rubble of the past 100 years lie millions dead. For what? Colonial and corporate greed.
August 23rd, 2005 at 3:11 pmAnd now for something the same –
Brought to you by your Homeland Security tax dollars
Electric bullets for use in crowd control
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2005/8/23/132750/438
Wonder if these will be used on pro-bush and anti-bush supporters alike. Not to worry though Red, they will be testing them on illegal aliens first.
August 23rd, 2005 at 4:06 pmRed
August 23rd, 2005 at 4:08 pmTake comfort in the protestations of the left. You can buy stock in Lynntech, the TExas company developing electric bullets. Why the more lefties to taser the better for you. You can purchase that big SUV and guzzle oil brought to you with the blood of 1800.
And Halliburton stockholders are making a killing. Literally.
August 23rd, 2005 at 7:15 pmKing George is taking a vacation from his arduous vacation. After all bike riding and avoiding Sheehan is tough work.
August 23rd, 2005 at 8:26 pmRed, do yourself a favour, look at other forms of the media, which are out there. You have the ability, at your fingertips to emerge yourself in the facts of truth, of what is going on in Iraq and throughout the mad world, which we now inhabit.
Don’t just watch and listen to Fox News, and the other of Bush’s right-wing media whores. Have a look at the BBC news website, http://www.bbc.co.uk
Find out what is really going on in Iraq. Open your eyes and ears to what is happening in the world. It’s a scary place out there. Where some people like to suppress the truth, for their own political gain.
And why is it so un-patriotic, to ask questions of our leaders, politicians and governments, ‘WHY’?
This is typical right-wing propaganda. If you ask questions, and demand answers from our Prime Minister or President. If you disagree with their actions, you are then labelled unfairly as being:
A ‘traitor’, ‘unpatriotic’, ‘liberal’, ‘un-American’, (if you are an American). A ‘left leaning pinko-commie’, etc, etc. You get the picture.
I voted for Tony Blair and the Labour party in the last three elections in Britain, which the Labour party were elected. I disagreed with his backing of George W. Bush and his ‘War On Terror’. I have the right to disagree with my Prime Minister, it’s called ‘DEMOCRACY’, Red, look it up. Before the next time you want to label those that disagree with Bush’s actions, as being un-patriotic.
Then you can get back to singing, God Bless America at every opportunity. And truly call yourself ‘A TRUE AMERICAN AND A PATRIOT’
It’s really is a pity that both governments and its politicians on both sides of the pond. Don’t pay heed to the great statesmen that have gone before them.
“You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.â€
President Abraham Lincoln
“The whole history of the world is summed up in the fact that, when nations are strong, they are not always just, and when they wish to be just, they are no longer strong.â€
“Many forms of government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.â€
“It is the people who control the Government, not the Government the people.â€
British Prime Minister Sir Winston Churchill
August 23rd, 2005 at 9:42 pm“A government that is big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take it all away.”
August 23rd, 2005 at 9:51 pm- B. Franklin
… the thing that scares me is the idea that we have a goverment recruiting people who are ( through no fault of their own ) mentally ill , offering a figurative ” get out of jail free ” as a sign-up incentive , and then will train these same people to handle some of the deadliest weapons on this planet . ship them off to a ‘ foreign land ‘ to kill strangers is fine with the neo-con , but i ask them : what happens when , ( if they survive long enough ) , when they come home to NO jobs , NO quality care they earned serving their country , gas prices astronomical , EVERYTHING from the clothes on your back to the food you eat increased to off-set the gas pricing , etc. how do we think they may react to such overwhelming adversity ? it would be funny if it weren’t so sad …
August 23rd, 2005 at 10:05 pmAnyone still around for this one might get a chuckle from the photo of one VFW member’s solution to Bush’s speech. It’s been posted a few places, including Crooks and Liars.
August 24th, 2005 at 7:48 am(whoops) Scroll down a little way to “Write Your Own Caption” for the photo.
August 24th, 2005 at 7:49 amI met a man from Mississipi
Americans are proud that they fought for liberty and freedom in two world wars. But the truth is that they were very reluctant to become involved in either war. It was Britain that stood up for freedom and democracy.
…
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