Chertoff Learned of Levee Failure 36 Hours After Mayor Nagin?
Chertoff Learned of Levee Failure 36 Hours After Mayor Nagin?
Homeland Security chief Mike Chertoff today offered the administration’s (first, second) third excuse for their lack of preparedness for Katrina:
Well, I think if you look at what actually happened, I remember on Tuesday morning picking up newspapers and I saw headlines, “New Orleans Dodged the Bullet.” Because if you recall, the storm moved to the east and then continued on and appeared to pass with considerable damage but nothing worse. It was on Tuesday that the levee — may have been overnight Monday to Tuesday — that the levee started to break. And it was midday Tuesday that I became aware of the fact that there was no possibility of plugging the gap and that essentially the lake was going to start to drain into the city. I think that second catastrophe really caught everybody by surprise.
In other words, it’s not that we didn’t expect the levee system would burst. It’s that the storm passed and the levees remained in tact, and when we found out afterwards they had failed, it was already too late.
The problem: we didn’t learn that the levees were failing on “midday Tuesday.” We learned Monday morning:
New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin said on NBC’s “Today Show” there was already “significant flooding” in the city, most of which lies below sea level.
“I’ve gotten reports this morning that there’s already water coming over some of the levee systems,” he said.
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He read it in the f*cking newspaper?
September 4th, 2005 at 1:45 pmAn admission of total incompetence.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:00 pmIf re-read his statement he did not even read about in the newspapers.
“And it was midday Tuesday that I became aware of the fact that there was no possibility of plugging the gap and that essentially the lake was going to start to drain into the city.”
September 4th, 2005 at 2:09 pmHuh,hey guys. I just happened upon your site by accident, but you may want to look up the word “break” and the phrase “coming over.” There’s a difference. Get a grip, people.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:10 pmThey can read the newspapers, but can’t tune in CNN? Everyone with a TV set knew the minute the levees were failing. I’ll personally pay the DirectTV subscription to get some CNN and NBC in the DHS offices.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:12 pmThere were NO reports of the levee “breaking” on Monday. You’re showing your ignorance.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:14 pmCindy, considering that FEMA and DHS claimed they didn’t learn that people were in the superdome until three days after the hurricane, when it had been on the news for those three days…do you actually believe the crap they are spewing here too? Are you really that ignorant?
September 4th, 2005 at 2:18 pmLike most folks, I was watching the hurricane coverage around the clock and at about 3am Tuesday morning, as I was watching CNN, an official from Charity hospital was speaking to host, Rick Sanchez about the levee breach on 17th and Canal. He was stunned since this was the first he or any other media outlet had heard of it. CNN began double checking the report and getting the message out. Too bad the officials weren’t tuned in.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:21 pmI remember a troll named Cindy…she’s just here ‘by accident’. Yeah, right.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:27 pmWe can see that Cindy does not know that water that breeches a dike or dam soon causes damage to the structure that causes the structure to fail, as in breaking. You don’t stop the water flow with a mop or paper towel.
Cindy needs to watch the old flims and TV reports of the floods along the Mississippi River.
Maybe Cindy could go to the next flood area and do some sandbag work totry and stop a flood at a dike or levee.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:28 pmGive them hell, Cindy. I’m with you. I like the way you come in here and tell these loosers to get a grip. And calling them “ignorant” was too cool. After all, what the hell do they know without a degree in engineering or have some understanding of Louisiana levees first hand, huh?
But correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Chertoff a lawyer by profession, appointed by Bush, and who knows less about a flood levee than he does about a tax levy? I mean, don’t get me wrong here, as I agree with you: people should know what they are talking about before they show their ignorance.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:28 pm3rdman, FEMA knew about the Superdome and helped begin the evac on Tue (again see Wikipedia. It was the convention center that they didn’t know about until thu. I don’t believe everything they say, but that doesn’t mean I believe everything anyone says either.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:29 pm“Break” vs “Coming-over” is your Apology?
Remember the Hurricane had passed? Chertoff said he knew that. Now if the water was just ‘coming-over’ and the Hurricane had already passed why didn’t Chertoff order in the equipment necessary to SHORE UP the levees? It was HIS responsibility. Homeland Defense is directly responsible for coordinating Natural Disaster relief.
Your ‘apology’ is an even Larger indictment of Chertoff’s Incompetence…
September 4th, 2005 at 2:30 pmI sorry, I forgot that Republicans can’t get their hands dirty working.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:30 pm3rdman, sweetheart, it’s the “convention center” you mean, I think. I’m guessing that FEMA probably knew there were people in the Superdome. Oh boy, I’m having fun!
September 4th, 2005 at 2:31 pm#10 that’s absolutely right. Water ‘coming over’ a levee at a minimum puts it at extremely high risk of ‘breaking’.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:33 pm#13 they are too busy sandbagging for their inept leaders.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:34 pmCindy,
We can see that you like to do wordsmith.
The fact that Chertoff and crew knew that thousands of American were at the Superdome and made no effort to get food and water to them, or anyone else, as is his responsibility as Sec of the DHS is the issue. The issues are not whether 3rdman got the name of the shelter wrong.
But people dying is just a minor point for you, as long as you are having fun.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:42 pmYou are right…I am not having fun (poor choice of expression). However, I find it disturbing the things you people say. There was “no effort” to help the people? Are you serious? Perhaps you have absolutely no understanding of the utter and complete enormity of what has happened, and the enormity of the logistics involved. I’d do some homework if I were you. You will never have people take you seriously when you spout of this ridiculous rhetoric. There were obviously errors made and many on the local and state level, as well as the federal will be held accountable. There will be plenty of investigations and I’m glad for that.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:48 pmCindy is just mad that she was the one dike that couldn’t stop the water from pouring in.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:55 pmFailures stick together.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:55 pmGood shot, Cindy with #14. Put old 3rdman in his place. You are right, it was the convention center and not the Superdome. Just between you and me, I liked the slick way you pointed that error out while avoiding the question. And that demeaning “sweetheart”—that was too much!!
But correct me if I’m wrong, but as 3rdman pointed out, didn’t FEMA Chief Brown say in a press conference on Friday that they first learned about the Convention Center’s horrible conditions on Thursday, three days after the hurricane struck? I mean, I’m just wondering, babe.
September 4th, 2005 at 2:56 pmHere is something I posted a few weeks ago. It is the handbook of the right-wing leadership. Paul Weyrich’s institution uses this as their guiding priniciple.
Karl Rove meets every Wed with Paul. Paul was just quoted in the Washington Post that he is a very close friend of Tom Delay, and of course George W. Bush.
You want to know what happened to FEMA this their plan for American institutions, and FEMA is an American institution. You think it is by accident that Bush destroyed the effectiveness of FEMA. Read and believe:
http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15483
*The Integration of Theory and Practice:
A Program for the New Traditionalist Movement*
by Eric Heubeck
“Our movement will be entirely destructive, and entirely constructive. We will not try to reform the existing institutions. We only intend to weaken them, and eventually destroy them. We will endeavor to knock our opponents off-balance and unsettle them at every opportunity. All of our constructive energies will be dedicated to the creation of our own institutions.”
10,000 dead? What price do we need to pay to stop these criminals?
September 4th, 2005 at 2:56 pmvotetoimpeach.org
September 4th, 2005 at 2:58 pmYou Bush haters are begging for it! My god, you are unbelievably filled with hate for this man.
Just because you are LOUDER than the right (who will not politicize such a tragedy) does not mean you will win at the polls. We will choke you with your hate.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:00 pmJoe Sixpack, there’s a difference between knowing that people who need help and wanting to help them, and being ABLE to get them what they need and to get them out. As I said before, never has anything this big and devastating occurred in this country. There was staging, there were floodwater, they had to mobilize people and vehicles, and also, I might add, keep people from shooting at them. Are you, like EasyRider, implying that “no efforts” were made? Thanks goodness I only visited here for a few minutes today. The level of discourse is about the lowest I can imagine.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:01 pmSusan, charming comment.
Here’s the lede alongside that exact story that Chertoff refers to (apparently he didn’t get past the headline–like some of the trolls posting comments on this site):
A large section of the vital 17th Street Canal levee, where it connects to the brand new `hurricane proof’ Old Hammond Highway bridge, gave way late Monday morning in Bucktown after Katrina’s fiercest winds were well north. The breach sent a churning sea of water from Lake Pontchartrain coursing across Lakeview and into Mid-City, Carrollton, Gentilly, City Park and neighborhoods farther south and east.
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/t-p/katrina.ssf?/hurricane/katrina/stories/083005_a1_risingwater.html
So, yes, trolls and Republicans, there was a “break” in the levee, it occurred on Monday, and it was in the very article the head of our nation’s security used as the entire basis for his disaster “intelligence” operation. But don’t let the “facts” get in the way of all your press conferences!
September 4th, 2005 at 3:04 pmChertoff is a jerkoff.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:08 pmComing over vs. break in the levy…..semantics.
http://205.188.130.53/ngm/0410/feature5/index.html?fs=www7.nationalgeographic.com
There were no questions on if the levy(s) would break, none. They’ve known that it was weak point for a long time. The moment water was coming over the levy combined with flooding in the city would have been more then enough indication that failure was possible, even imminent. There are satellites that can photo a pimple on a rhinos backside, but no one can see that there is a major problem, they did not know? They did not know that people were in other places other then the dome? You have to be kidding me, their job IS to know what’s going on, where, when, how, who and why.
(I’ll cut myself of here as I’ll start ranting.)
September 4th, 2005 at 3:09 pmCindy, it’s not that there was no efforts made, it’s just that the efforts were no where near acceptable. Combine that with the leader of FEMA saying that he didn’t know that there was a shelter at the superdome. DIDN’T KNOW! Isn’t that his job? Or is it to bus rich white people out of the city? 6 days is inexcusable for a first world disaster relief effort.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:09 pmI think I just made my point about the level of discourse (with the exception perhaps of Chinatownjack). Thanks and I’ll read the article.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:13 pmJustin, see number #14
Dartanyan, have you met Susan? Charming, really.
I am out of here.
Listen – I watched with my OWN EYES CNN on Monday night/Tuesday morning at 2:00 AM EDT as they spoke to a director at Tulane Hospital, who reported she had been told by the NOPD that a levee had burst and that the hospital was surrounded by six feet of water. She also reported at the time the water was rising by an inch every five minutes.
In fact, here it is, posted at another board, recorded for posterity – second post down…
http://p085.ezboard.com/fsurvivorsucksfrm5.showMessageRange?topicID=45473.topic&start=781&stop=800
So to say FEMA didn’t know what was going on is utterly, utterly criminal. This guy should be hung up by his toenails.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:15 pmOpen Letter to the President
From the Times-Picayune:
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tporleans/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tporleans/archives/2005_09.html#076771
September 4th, 2005 at 3:16 pmWith all the articles on the web Cindy I’d think you’d be a little more informed. And sorry I meant the convention centre. But like I said. THAT’S HIS JOB. So Cindy how do you cover for the 6 days it took for relief to come to the people trapped in New Orleans? You never really answered that, all you’ve done pretty much is heaped condesention on us… How productive.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:19 pmJust one more thing. It’s my understanding that where the levee broke was actually in a place that had been completed and in good condition. The NO levee problem has existed for decades. This is not a problem that Bush could have helped, given that it would take years to make the levees resistant enough for a category 4 hurricane. Now, if someone can tell me that Bush actually dismantled the levees that were working so well in the 90’s, then I’ll agree that this is Bush’s fault. But I don’t think you can do that. Had the hurricane occured in 2000, we’d have had just a bad a problem. Would you be blaming Clinton then? The problem, of course, lies at the local level.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:20 pmIf I were a Bush supporter, I would not want to talk about the level of competence either.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:21 pmCindy dear can you back up that assertation? I believe that you can’t. I’d really like to read that the levees were in good condition and able to withstand a category 4 greater hurricane.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:22 pmCindy, look at the funding requests vis-a-vis Bush’s funding proposals during his entire term.
Then explain to me who Bush appointed to head FEMA, and what crisis management experience he has.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:24 pmright cindy, it would take years to shore up the levees to where they could protect the city. That’s “hard work,” so Bush was right not to try.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:25 pmI’d also like to call into account something called degradation Cindy… you know things deteroriate over time, so something that worked well in the 90’s wouldn’t necessairily work well today. Bush slashed funding to maintenence and repair in the oh 6 years that he was in office Mrs. “It takes years to make levees resistant enought for a category 4 hurricane”.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:25 pmOperation Impact was one of Clinton’s legacies that Bush was quick to dismantle at his first opportunity. Look it up sometime, Cindy.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:26 pmUh yes, fuggybootlin, Monday night/Tuesday morning. Just like Chertoff said. He became AWARE that it couldn’t be FIXED on Tuesday afternoon.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:26 pmPlease, people, get a grip.
Justin, you must live in the most sheltered world. It was a disaster of massive proportions. This wasn’t a movie. It was real and it was bad and it is sad. There are LOGISTICs involved which I addressed earlier.
Logistics such as diverting rescue ships to deal with people stealing food and water? And I live in the sheltered world?
September 4th, 2005 at 3:28 pmCindy your remark at #18 was right on target. Especially when you state that the liberals here have no concept of the enormity that has struck. Deaf and blind as a bunch of damned bats. All they know is what they see with their lying, dumbassed eyes.
But correct me if I’m wrong, since we are talking about logistics, I wonder why the helicopters at Ft. Benning (394 Miles) and Ft. Campbell (581 miles) weren’t scrambled by Bush’s emergency orders when he was still eating cake in Arizona, his aides aware of the enormity of the problem.
And I really do agree with you another thing, too. There will be lots of investigations—probably starting with that damned DEMOCRATIC Governor Blanco.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:30 pmJustin, it was widely reported:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050901corps,1,7189346.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true
It is also widely agreed that even had funding been approved at the level requested by Landrieu, the improvements would not yet have been completed, and likely would not have withstood the magnitude of this storm.
Do you some reading, folks.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:30 pmReally wouldn’t have been completed? Where’s your proof on that? Widely agreed on by whom? I would have said fine if the relief took 2-3 maybe even 4 days to be completed, but 6 is unacceptable. Add to that the Bush appointed leader of FEMA had no disaster relief experience before that… and I don’t even know why you’re arguing. I guess I should just be like “yay bush moved a finger, I should be happy”
September 4th, 2005 at 3:34 pmThousands dead and Bush is not responsible.
Bush has killed Amercians than any other American President in history.
Where do stop counting the dead? No health care, assault guns on the streets, retirement funds stolen, jobs losted, low wages, interest rates that cripple a person from ever getting out of debt, bankruppertcy laws that protect the wealthy and destroy everyone else for life, CEO and corporation executives raping corporations with huge salaries and stock options while firing the workers or sending jobs overseas, passing tax cut after tax cut for the super rich and corporations so all other Americans have to pay more tax burdren, and Bush fines ways to kill American dream.
When will Americans, not just Democrats, but Americans waitup and prosecute the criminals?
September 4th, 2005 at 3:38 pmSee #29
September 4th, 2005 at 3:42 pmSteven Souter #24. We are louder? You guys are with one spewing hatred on talk radio every day, 24hrs a day: Hannity, O’Really, Rush, Savage, Ingraham, etc., not counting Faux News. We are politicizing it? And you guys wouldn’t if it was Clinton or Kerry? Your imbecile’s disconnect and low IQ is catching up with your party. Whats the matter, fella, ain’t got Clinton to kick around any more?
September 4th, 2005 at 3:43 pm29 has no meaning to me whatsoever. If you can’t argue your points you should leave lest you be branded a troll.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:44 pmTrolls, like it or not, New Orleans is a great big, sh*t sandwich, and Bush is going to have to take a great big bite out of it.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:48 pmCindy,
Here is Bush’s position and funding on the levees. It was discussed the other day on this site:
“Bush Administration Had Reason To Know About Levee Problems”
http://thinkprogress.org/page/3/
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/01/bush-administration-had-reason-to-know-about-levee-problems/#comments
September 4th, 2005 at 3:50 pmAs the world watches the Republican wingers can not stop their spinning of lies. They are lost and follow the criminals as they go about their crimes against America.
September 4th, 2005 at 3:53 pmCindy and the Sock Puppets.
“Oh you are exactly right, Cindy” – Joe Sixpack
Do you notice the way Cindy and Joe Sixpack are alternating? It’s Sheri Lewis and Lambchop all over again.
“Right on, Cindy. You are one smart cookie.” – Cin..I mean, Joe Sixpack
September 4th, 2005 at 4:01 pmYou’re right on the money, nittacci. Boy, you are really making sense!
September 4th, 2005 at 4:04 pmAnd I’m really not trolling liberal blogs today. Really. Not. It’s just that I had this funny feeling that someone out there was wrongly criticizing the president, and I just HAD to say something
September 4th, 2005 at 4:06 pmNittacci I think Joe Sixpack is on our side. He criticises all the right wingers in the latter half oh his posts. Subtly by their standards but still.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:07 pmGo get ‘em, Nittacci. Man are you ever right on the money! I don’t know how you do it. I think you’re just the smartest person in the whole world.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:07 pmJustin,
September 4th, 2005 at 4:09 pmYou may be right, but I’m so sick to death of talk radio hosts telling each other “you’re exactly right!” and “I couldn’t agree more!”
I just found it a little suspicious that Cindy would drop out of the sky and find someone who agrees 110% that golly, it’s just awful that we should be criticizing the President at a time like this, especially since it’s all THE MAYOR’S FAULT ANYWAY.
Here is a thread and story on TMP:
(September 04, 2005 — 11:19 AM EDT // link // print)
It’s almost awe-inspiring to see the level of energy and coordination the Bush White House can bring to bear in a genuine crisis. Not hurricane Katrina, of course, but the political crisis they now find rising around them.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2005_09_04.php#006411
September 4th, 2005 at 4:11 pmFor the right-wingers the devastation of Katrina is too big for the federal government to handle but just the right size for the mayor of NO to deal with.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:15 pmnittacci #53 you are probably right about me being a rightwing, facist dipsh*t. Now that “Lambchop” pun was funny and I’m sitting here laughing my butt off. Really.
But correct me if I’m wrong, but shouldn’t someone try to help the trolls keep their facts straight around here?
September 4th, 2005 at 4:30 pmhttp://intoxination.blogspot.com/2005/09/look-at-governments-responsibility.html
I got parts of the National Response Plan there that pertains to national disasters and how Chertoff failed at his own job! Enjoy
Jamie
September 4th, 2005 at 4:40 pmhttp://intoxination.blogspot.com
Fact:
Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00
‘The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating’…
Buses were not used. Nagin did not evacuate the poor people as he should have and as the hurricane evacuation calls for.
Questions: is he racist? does he dislike poor people?
September 4th, 2005 at 4:41 pmCindy,
You missed the point – this was the LOUISIANA disaster plan – that the STATE was supposed to execute. Unless the Parish system works differently Louisiana, the Mayor is NOT the governor. Not only does the mayor not own those government vehicles, he doesn’t have the authority to use them without state approval – or did you miss that ‘fact’ while you were busy spreading your lies and propaganda. You’re a big ugly bag of inhumane crap that should be ashamed of your very existence!
September 4th, 2005 at 4:46 pmI suppose the federal disaster relief should then be absolved of all responsibility then is that right Cindy?
September 4th, 2005 at 4:46 pmNo one drowned except in NO? The rat-eaten corpse Anderson Cooper saw in Biloxi mush have floated a long way then. Yeah, right. Nice talking points, troll scum.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:47 pmOKAY, Ryan.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:48 pmQuestions: Is Blanco racist? Does she dislike poor people? Why did she not authorize Nagin to use the buses to transport poor people?
No, Justin, the feds shoudl not be absolved, as I stated earlier.
Cindy,
You should better coordinate with your right wing cohorts. Powerline claims that there was NO PLAN to evacuate these people – so he seems to be as unaware of the facts as you are, but he’s unaware of a different set. You guys should better coordinate your propaganda – because this point you look as incompetent as the administration does…
September 4th, 2005 at 4:49 pmSo what exactly are you arguing Cindy? Are you trying to smear a democrat? I could hardly care less. She could very well be racist I don’t know. And neither do you unless you know her personally. Maybe she didn’t have the resources. I’m not even going to try to defend the governor though because a disaster of this magnitude should always be taken over by the Feds and their horrendus mismanagement is plain to see.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:50 pmNo, Blanco is not a racist, but she is a Democrat, and so is Nagin. Did Barbour do better? Didn’t think so. So much for not politicizing the tragedy. May you drown in your own excrement, it’s rising faster than Katrina’s wave.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:52 pmCINDY, DO YOU LUV BUSH?
September 4th, 2005 at 4:52 pmSorry Ryan. This is real. Could someone else a bit more intelligent answer the question?
September 4th, 2005 at 4:52 pmI did answer your questions Cindy. You just need to read.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:53 pmNAGIN WAS A REPUBLICAN. HE IS A TRAITOR. HE WAS A BUSH SUPPORTER. CHECK THAT COMMIE INSYCOPEDOPHILIA WIKID SOMETING
September 4th, 2005 at 4:53 pmCINDY! LUV MY BUSH!
September 4th, 2005 at 4:54 pmLike the story that Blanco did not declare the state of emergency: just another lie in a list that would stretch to the moon.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:54 pmIs there anybody out there intelligent who can answer my question?
September 4th, 2005 at 4:54 pmThe federal government is not responsible for evacuating a city before a hurricane. I can’t believe I even have to type this.
Yes, Barbour did a lot better. I can’t believe you even have to ask that.
Cindy, the quote from the disaster plan is great and ought to put the Bush-hating liberals in their uninformed, out of touch places. They really do need to get a grip.
But correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Bush cut 71 million dollars out of the New Orleans FEMA budget in June, and at the time it was reported that the new plan to deal with a Cat. 5 hurricane had to be shelved? Now I’m on your side here. You and I at least know he’s not a racist, because he just made a trip down there for a photo op which showed his arms around several black hurricane victims shoulders. Kind of like the fireman on 9-11.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:54 pmOH WOE IS MY BUSH! HE IS OVER! HE IS KAPUT! SEIG HEIL MY BUSHENFUHRER!
September 4th, 2005 at 4:56 pmIt’s not Cindy? Why not? And you’re not seeming very intelligent either. I’m being gracious and responding to your obviously ill informed posts. Please. Asking if someone is racist? Really intelligent there.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:56 pmI’m waiting. Of course, FEMA didn’t have anything to do with all the school buses abandoned and not used to transport poor people out of the city during a mandatory evacuation.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:56 pmAnybody with an intelligent answer?
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT MUST BE DROWNED IN LAKE PUNCHATRAIN AND THE NEW ORLEANS MARDI GRAS PARTY PUNCHBOWL
September 4th, 2005 at 4:57 pmThe right-winger story used to be: no one could have anticipated the breaking of the levees. Now it is: how could Nagin not have anticipated the breaking of the levees?
September 4th, 2005 at 4:57 pmOk…I get it.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:58 pmSee #29.
OH WOE IS MY BUSH, HERR BUSHENFUHRER HAS DROWNED HISSELF IN THE PUDDLE OF DISREPUTE!
September 4th, 2005 at 4:58 pmHow about this: Mistakes were made on all sides no one here is saying the mayor or the governor is a saint. However, some people chose to stay due to being ill informed or scared about leaving their property unprotected. However, that does not mean that the federal response AFTER the hurricane is any better by comparison.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:58 pm#78 great post.
September 4th, 2005 at 4:59 pmEveryone made mistakes? Possible. One thing for sure: Nagin and Blanco were NOT playing golf and clearing brush Monday and Tuesday.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:00 pmCINDY, YOU TWO BAGGER, THE TRUTH IS IRRELEVANT AS A GOPSTAPO AGENT YOU KNOW THIS. THE PERCEPTION IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT AND THE PERCEPTION IS THAT YOUR BUSHEFUHRER HAS BEEN MORTALLY WOUNDED. HIS LEGACY IS KAPUT. HE IS NOW AND FOREVER, THE WORST PRESIDENT YET.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:00 pmBUSH MADE A MISTAKE WHEN HE TOOK OFFICE IN 2000.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:02 pm#29 troll you shoulda been outta here 2 hours ago by your own words. Do you get OT for your crap? Or are you still having fun thinking of all the people in the superdome?
September 4th, 2005 at 5:03 pmCindy, #77 you are right on point. The government should not have to evacuate a city before a hurricane. Only the mayor and city councilmen should do it as under Bush’s limited government decisions should be made at the lowest possible level to keep big government out of it.
But correct me if I’m wrong, but shouldn’t they try to evacuate it AFTER the hurricane, if the city is has been destroyed? Just wondering.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:04 pm#92 of course the federal government should stay out of it and leave it to the local authorities unless it’s about disconnecting a feeding tube from a brain-dead white woman.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:07 pm#88 don’t think they were reading My Pet Goat either.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:09 pmCindy: You have yet to respond to #26, responding to your very first posts at #4 and #6.
In fact, while you’ve been telling everyone “Do you some reading folks.” nearly everything you’ve said here has been proved either wrong or has been unsubstantiated.
We’re waiting for your response. Weren’t Brown and Chertoff lying when they said the levee breach didn’t occur until Tuesday? Or were they just ignorant?
September 4th, 2005 at 5:10 pm#93 – correct: unless it’s about disconnecting a feeding tube from a single brain-dead christian white woman.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:12 pmI have seen no evidence that indicates that the federal government knew on Monday that the levee had broken. Chertoff said it could have happened overnight on Monday, but he’s not sure. Now, if you can provide proof that someone knew exactly when it broke (and I said “broke), then I’ll take back my comments. Nagin words are not enough…he says there was evidence water was coming over the levee.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:16 pmI might add, dcloysmith, what has been disproven that I said? That Louisiana didn’t properly evacuate people in buses, etc. during a mandatory evacuation even though their disaster plan required this?
September 4th, 2005 at 5:18 pm#98 – and let’s not forget that Katrina shares the same importance gauge as a missing white woman in Aruba…
If this disaster had happened in Kennebunkport, Maine, Chertoff would have been on the ground there plucking victims from the waters while the hurricane was still raging, I think.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:18 pmI agree Joe Sixpack, they should evacuate after. I wish it had happened faster. We’ll find out soon enough what happened.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:19 pmTwoplustwoisfour #93 is right in line with our thoughts, Cindy. (That sneaky little troll, heh heh). Limited government for a limited man, so to speak.
But now correct me if I’m wrong, but Bush seemed to be faster getting back to Washington on his last vacation to help Jeb and Dr. Frist save the life of Terri Schiavo than he was this time. Of course, that is just an observation and doesn’t have much of a rightwing spin yet. What’s your thoughts, Cindy?
September 4th, 2005 at 5:20 pmJoe, he returned, I believe, on Wed., possibly Thursday. The extent of the problem was not known until well into Tuesday. Remember that we all breathed a sigh of relief on Monday (at least I did), then we slowly begin to realize how awful it was as Tuesday progressed. So, if he returned on Thursday, yes, perhaps he could have gotten back a day earlier, but that’s all. You also have to remember that congress was not in session, and that he can do a lot of work in Crawford. Contrary to media reports, he’s not “on vacation.” Things travel with him.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:23 pmGuys it is time to ignore Cindy. She has her head so far up her ass she is drawing everyone else in.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:24 pm#97 and #98 troll, you want evidence DISPROVING what you write. But when Nico posted, you want evidence to PROVE one of the deductions he makes. Nice try. We are a little smarter than that here.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:25 pmNo, Cindy, you do not attend parties and photo ops while horror is unleashed. A CAT 5 HURRICANE is an automatic disaster, you don’t NEED to “see how things go” and “breathe a sigh of relief”. How is it that *I* knew this would happen? I knew New Orleans was toast when I hear a CAT 5 is going to hit a city built on Marshland. I suspect many across America did too.
There is no excuse for Bush. None whatsoever. “working from crawford” is an oxymoron when this sort of thing happens. Why not, then, move the fucking White House to Crawford, then? Why bother to show up at the White House at all? Its called SYMBOLISM, and LEADERSHIP, and you don’t fucking spend 2 days after a CAT 5 hits ANYWHERE IN AMERICA playing guitar and going to fundraising parties.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:28 pmCindy you are a sociopath
September 4th, 2005 at 5:28 pmJoe Sixpack, by Wednesday it was still only 1,000 indigent and handicapped negroes vs. one middle-class christian brain-dead white woman, what do you expect?
September 4th, 2005 at 5:28 pm#106 make that 150,000 poor negroes vs. 1 middle-class christian brain-dead white woman.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:29 pmthe point is that four years after 9/11, Bush should have been better prepared for a major devastation. Osama is laughing his ass off (remember him?)
September 4th, 2005 at 5:30 pmTwoplustwo – #107 – No, we ARE smarter than you. You just don;t know it. You’re trying to defend the indefensible. And you’re calling ME a troll! It is to laugh. I am not looking for anything to disprove what I write. I know it to be fact. Google is your friend. I’m not here to school you.
Go hide under your bridge.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:30 pmOk…I tried.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:30 pmSee #29.
Joe Sixpack, this will probably be my last post, unless I get some intelligent comments. I checked and apparently, Bush returned on Wed.
Yeah, Cindy, that is a good take. I was breathing a sigh of relief right after he quit scarfing down that cake with John McCain on Monday afternoon, myself. Funny how his job just travels around with him. You’d think he didn’t know what the hell was going on, huh?
But now tell me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think all those people who had already drowned in the flood waters were sighing with relief, just the governor of Louisiana, Blanco who had been asking frantically for four days for help. Of course, that is probably a liberal spin to it.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:32 pmbeverins your post is #99. the troll’s are #97 and #98.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:32 pmI think YOU are smarter than that.
flooding is flooding and requires the same response, no matter how it happens. And everybody knows a hurricane brings a lot of water with it, and this hurricane was going up the Mississippi, dumping a lot more water, and it all flows downstream.
There are NO EXCUSES for derelection of duty. Anybody that tries to apoligze for this criminal behavior has no character, no sense of social responsibility and no sense of accountability.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:32 pm113. beverins–
You really know how to prove a point.
Cindy’s (yours to) purpose is to defeat this site’s threads that discuss real issues. Remember Bush and his supporters create their own reality. We only are capable of analysizing the real reality based world.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:32 pmI tried.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:33 pmSee #29.
Out of here for real.
He needed to return SUNDAY. CAT5 = automatic disaster. Thats what a leader does. No excuses.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:34 pmCindy: In #26, I already provided you with one link to the very issue of the very paper Chertoff discussed at the press conference today. That article said the first bread occurred Monday morning.
And, in fact it was reported Monday afternoon (starting at 2:15) by the New Orleans media here :
http://216.87.159.39/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=9354
and here
http://khon.com/khon/displayStory.cfm?storyID=6762
and here:
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Ti mes-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#074876
(For this last one, you’ll need to use Google cache.)
and on later that afternnoon here on TV:
http://www.wwltv.com/perl/common/video/wmPlayer.pl?title=www.wwlt v.com/082905mayor.wmv
You have “seen no evidence” becuase you haven’t looked. I found all of these in a Google search that took two seconds–and there are dozens more.
So please stop telling others to do the research and “the reading” when you apparently can’t do it yourself.
What is obvious from this discussion, however, is that the “left-wing media” has better souces, better intelligence, and better resources than the Bush administration.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:34 pm#110 troll – last post? funds for spin & propaganda musta been sucked dry this last week. Do them on credit, what else would you do anyway?
September 4th, 2005 at 5:35 pmHere is my Cindy timeline:
2:10pm – First post, says “I just happened upon your site by accident…”
3:01pm – 5th post says “Thank goodness I only visited here for a few minutes today. The level of discourse here is about the lowest I can imagine.”
3:13pm – 6th post says “I am out of here.”
3:20pm – 6th post says (ominously)”And just one more thing…”
5:23pm – 20th post made. On a site she “just happened upon”…about 2 and a half hours ago…a site where she must be very uncomfortable because the discourse is “the lowest she can imagine”…a site she said she was leaving over 2 hours ago…
5:30pm – 21st post…”This will probably be my last post…”
And yet she is still here. Sounds like a lying, dishonest, sociopathic, obsessive wingnut troll to me.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:35 pmI dunno, my post was #97. I wrote “Oh, and even if the levee problem has existed since the city was founded, and even if the CAT 5 hurricane would be breached the walls had they been in good repair”
So, I am sorry about attacking you, but on this PC with Firefox my post is at #97. Apologies
September 4th, 2005 at 5:38 pmThanks will keep in mind that numbers may be different.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:39 pm#118 Cindystherapist, I am going to miss her. I’m going to miss her, she was fun.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think twoplustwoisfour is a troll and he will miss her too.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:43 pmHere is something new on TMP
(September 04, 2005 — 05:28 PM EDT // link // print)
Check out this document that Larry Johnson has found, a National (disaster) Response Plan that the administration promulgated last December which seems to say explicitly that in the event of a catastrophic disaster the federal government need not wait for any explicit request for the local authorities in the affected regions.
http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/9/4/171811/1974
September 4th, 2005 at 5:43 pmCindy: The levee area that you referred to as having been repaired had actually not been finished in an engineering sense. The concrete had not been completely reinforced yet, nor had there been time for it to settle. This is well documented in reports noted elsewhere (New York Times and in interviews with Corps of Engineers on the Web)The point is — status reports should have been streaming in on live feeds to keep Fema officials up todate, but someone intelligent and trained enough to understand how to react to the info should have been in charge – rather than crony party hacks.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:44 pm‘Always speak the truth – think before you speak and write it down afterwards’ said the Red Queen to Alice
#118, the discourse was low, it had to sink to the troll’s level.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:44 pmthe plan:
September 4th, 2005 at 5:45 pmhttp://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf
Joe Sixpack, trolls may yet be back, funds are low, but maybe a saudi oil prince will send a check.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:47 pmI just can’t fathom how people can even think of trying to defend any of the actions of the chain of events leading to this travesty.
I was even disgusted by the apologetics by the Lt. General of the Army who is managing the Guard in New Orleans. “we tried as hard as we could” blah blah blah – all the while skillfully dancing around the subject of getting food, water and medical help to those in the Superdome and the Convention center. Even he knows that those events were pure TRAVESTY and indefensible.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:54 pmCindy,
Not to pick on you but I beleive the question posed (and never answered very well) was why did it take 6 days for federal response? There really is no excuse for Chertoff’s incompetence in this. People will relate this to Bush because Chertoff was his man for the position. Debating whether he knew if the levee would/would not break/overflow really is unimportant and (purposefully?) distracts from the lack of response once the flooding started.
People should be angry with this administration’s poor performance in this emergency – particularly when compared with the quick responses to the 2004 (election year)huricanes in florida.
Two Days after Frances made landfall in Florida in 2004 FEMA had (according to a Washington press release):
-About 100 trucks of water and 280 trucks of ice present
- 900,000 Meals-Ready-to-Eat are on site in Jacksonville
-Over 7,000 cases of food in Winter Haven
-Disaster medical assistance teams (DMAT) are on the ground
-The Departments of Health and Human Services, Veterans Affairs, and Defense together have organized 300 medical personnel to be on standby….
FEMA’s lack of response this time is indicative of this administrations lack of concern for anything but themsleves and their backers.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:55 pmThis is Johnson thread at TMP incase you have not checked it out.
Please send links to all the press, newspapers, and blogs you have links to.
http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/9/4/171811/1974
CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE AND KATRINA?
By Larry Johnson | bio
From: Politics
The provocative title is intentional. Why did the Bush Administration fail to act according to the National Response Plan they created in December of 2004 to deal with an incident like Katrina?
What do you do when the words on the paper don’t match the action in the field? People are dying today in New Orleans because of the failure to provide immediate aid are dead in part because of the negligence of Michael Chertoff. That is a harsh judgment, but if you will take time to read the National Response Plan that was signed into effect in December of 2004 there is no other reasonable conclusion.
The current effort by the Bush Administration to blame the victims in Louisiana and Mississippi is bad enough, but they are in big trouble once Americans take the time to understand that they the Administration ignored it’s own plan for dealing with a threat like Katrina. Why did they fail to implement the plan until it was too late to save lives along the Gulf Coast?
Don’t take my word for it, read the plan yourself. You can download it at http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf
The National Response Plan was accepted and implemented by Bush Administration in December 2004. According to the PREFACE, President Bush, “directed the development of a new National Response Plan (NRP) to align Federal coordination structures, capabilities, and resources into a unified, all discipline, and all-hazards approach to domestic incident management. . . .The end result is vastly improved coordination among Federal, State, local, and tribal organizations to help save lives and protect America’s communities by increasing the speed, effectiveness, and efficiency of incident management.”
Sep 04, 2005 — 05:18:11 PM EST
Efforts by Chertoff and other Administration spinmeisters to pin the blame on the delayed response on State and local authorities does not hold water. Although the NRP recognizes that State and local authorities have a responsibility to ask for help, the NRP correctly provides a provision to take proactive steps to deal with a threat. On page 43 of the NRP the section is titled, “Proactive Federal Response to Catastrophic Events” (which I have copied and pasted below:
The NRP establishes policies, procedures, and mechanisms for proactive Federal response to catastrophic events. A catastrophic event is any natural or manmade incident, including terrorism, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the population, infrastructure, environment, economy, national morale, and/or government functions. A catastrophic event could result in sustained national impacts over a prolonged period of time; almost immediately exceeds resources normally available to State, local, tribal, and private-sector authorities in the impacted area; and significantly interrupts governmental operations and emergency services to such an extent that national security could be threatened. All catastrophic events are Incidents of National Significance.
Implementation of Proactive Federal Response Protocols
Protocols for proactive Federal response are most likely to be implemented for catastrophic events involving chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear, or high-yield explosive weapons of mass destruction, or large magnitude earthquakes or other natural or technological disasters in or near heavily populated areas.
Guiding Principles for Proactive Federal Response
Guiding principles for proactive Federal response include the following:
â– The primary mission is to save lives; protect critical infrastructure, property, and the environment; contain the event; and preserve national security.
â– Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of
catastrophic magnitude.
â– Identified Federal response resources will deploy and begin necessary operations as required to commence life-safety activities.
â– Notification and full coordination with States will occur, but the coordination process must not delay or impede the rapid deployment and use of critical resources. States are urged to notify and coordinate with local governments regarding a proactive Federal response.
â– State and local governments are encouraged to conduct collaborative planning with the Federal Government as a part of “steady-state” preparedness for catastrophic incidents.
Implementation Mechanisms for Proactive
Federal Response to Catastrophic Events
The NRP Catastrophic Incident Supplement (described in the Catastrophic Incident Annex) addresses resource and procedural implications of catastrophic events to ensure the rapid and efficient delivery of resources and assets, including special teams, equipment, and supplies that provide critical lifesaving support and incident containment capabilities. These assets may be so specialized or costly that they are either not available or are in insufficient quantities in most localities.
The procedures outlined in the NRP Catastrophic Incident Supplement are based on the following:
â– The pre-identification of Federal assets and capabilities;
â– The strategic location of pre-identified assets for rapid deployment; and
â– The use of pre-scripted mission assignments for Stafford Act declarations, or individual agency authority and funding, to expedite deployment upon notification by DHS (in accordance with procedures established in the NRP Catastrophic Incident Supplement) of a potential catastrophic event.
Agencies responsible for these assets will keep DHS apprised, through the HSOC, of their ongoing status and location until the JFO is established. Upon arrival at the scene, Federal assets will coordinate with the Unified Command, the SFLEO, and the JFO (or its forward elements) when established. Demobilization processes, including full coordination with the JFO Coordination Group, are initiated either when the mission is completed or when it is determined the magnitude of the event does not warrant continued use of the asset.
While the Bush Administration is to be commended for coming up with a plan for dealing with terrorism and large scale disasters, it must be condemned for its abject failure to implement the NRP. And, specific heads must role starting with Michael Chertoff and the head of FEMA.
September 4th, 2005 at 5:57 pmSeems the trolls want to keep the conversation focused on pre-evacuation. Of course, asking why a mayor of one of the largest/poorest cities in the US can’t evacuates a million people in 2 days when FEMA cannot evacuate 20,000 in 4 days is a bit rich. Anyway, why has Bush shorted our domestic infrastructure to fight is delusion war in the ME? His redlining $300MM in the ACE budget just cost our economy $30BB or so.
By the way, don’t you love the fiscally responsible Republicans and their “needs base testing” of budget priorities? Like this-
In 2004, the U.S. Senate proposed its own $318 billion version of George W. Bush’s $256 billion six-year transportation bill. Though it was stalled by the threat of a Bush veto, the so-called Safe, Accountable, Flexible and Efficient Transportation Equity Act (SAFETEA) had many supporters, among them House Transportation and Infrastructure chairman, Don Young (R-Alaska), whose state would receive $200 million for a mile-long bridge linking Ketchikan, Alaska with its airport, a five-minute ferry ride from town. Ketchikan’s population at the time? 7,845.
That $200MM might have saved 7845 lives in New Orleans
September 4th, 2005 at 5:58 pmI just saw on CNN (CNN for god’s sake!) that it took 4 days for federal relief to start flowing into NO. START! WTF.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:03 pmHere is another comment on the Johnson thread on TMP:
Re: CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE AND KATRINA? (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by fpc on Sep 04, 2005 — 06:11:20 PM EST
Another reason why they SHOULD have been prepared to execute the National Response Plan but WEREN’T is that the plan explicitly was built around a number of baseline scenarios – the National Planning Scenarios. These are intended to be the baseline upon which various preparedness activities are to be organized and planned.
One of the scenarios deals with a major hurricane – full text on it at the link below:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/report/2004/hsc-pl anning-scenarios-jul04_10.htm
This adds an extra dimension to the original post – they CAN’T argue that the plan was intended for this kind of scenario – because it was built with it in mind, alongside terrorism scenarios.
CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE AND KATRINA? | 7 comments (7 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
September 4th, 2005 at 6:12 pmHere is the reason I think Chertoff is a liar:
Yes the local news was reporting that the levees broke early Monday morning. Now, do you think for example the Times Picayune had a reporter out looking for levee breaks or do you think they got the info from the army corps of engineers. Without a doubt the government was the first to know when and where the levees broke. It was their job to monitor them.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:18 pm5 days and counting to close the levee…..can someone explain why, given the resources available to FEMA/DHS that a 1000′ feet of breach couldn’t be closed in 24 hours and why NO couldn’t be pumed dry in another 24 hours?
September 4th, 2005 at 6:30 pmCindy, seriously, how does the RNC pay you folks to post on the boards? Is it on a per-post basis or are you salaried as independent contractors? Are you nervous about your job getting outsourced to India?
September 4th, 2005 at 6:35 pmCindy, sweetheart, I was awaiting an intelligent post from you before I deemed a response deserving.
Should I sift through your broke vocabulary? Your lack of aesthetic? Should I dismantle your ego?
Should I care?
I’ll sit. Like a Happy Rock.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:35 pmOkay, a couple of things. I just watched the video where Nagin calls for mandatory evacuation (It’s at CNN). Not only does he state that both he and the Governor have declared states of emergencies, he states that everyone needs to leave and asks churches, etc. to help. he also states that city buses will transport people from 10 specific points in town to refuges of last resort, such as the Superdome, if they could not leave.
He WAS using buses to move people. So why not evacuate from the city? It turns out that there had been a major evacuation from NO with Hurricane Georges. Read about it hear:
http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/wetlands/hurricane3.html
The money quotes:
And that taught everybody a troubling lesson. Joe Suhayda, the scientist with the big stick, drives me through the city to explain.
“Well, Hurricane Georges was one for which the track had the potential of flooding the city. So the people were given a mandatory order to evacuate the city,” says Suhayda.
And government officials had made elaborate plans so the population could evacuate smoothly. We keep passing blue street signs marked Hurricane Evacuation Route. The government had organized fleets of busses, to rescue tens-of-thousands of people who didn’t have cars. At the last minute, Hurricane Georges faded to a weaker storm and it veered away, which was lucky. Because the evacuation was a fiasco.
“And what happened to the people that did evacuate is that they got into massive traffic jams and many of them spent the worst part of the hurricane either on the highway—stopped— or had pulled off to the side of the road,” remembers Suhayda.
Now supposing the hurricane had really walloped New Orleans? Here are all of these thousands and thousands of people in their cars trapped on the side of the road. What would happen to them?
“Many of our evacuation routes are subject to flooding,” says Suhayda. “And they would be washed away, and there would be really no way for help—that is the emergency services people—to get to them to help them.”
They had tried using fleets of buses before to move people and it had actually had things worse. What would we be saying today if he had sent busloads out over the I-10 bridge going east when it collapsed and drowned them? Given the info they had, they may actually have made pretty reasonable decisions. Seeing the catastrophe evacuation had been before, who would not be leery to try it again, especially if you had no car.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:51 pmhttp://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08_29.html
9 AM Monday, August 29: “Hurricane Katrina’s eye is poised to pass to the east of downtown New Orleans at 9 a.m. with top winds of 135 mph, at the low end of a Category 4 storm, which may help reduce damage in the city, Metairie, the River Parishes and western parts of St. Tammany Parish.”
At 11 AM on Monday, August 29 “the NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE reported that a levee BROKE on the Industrial Canal near the St. Bernard-Orleans parish line.” (Emphasis added.) At 2PM the very same day “City Hall confirmed a breach of the levee along the 17th Street Canal at Bellaire Drive, allowing water to spill into Lakeview.”
Does Chertoff have ADD? Wonder if his health plan covers Ritalin?
September 4th, 2005 at 6:52 pmHey Cindy and all the other apologists
If you don’t yet know that the govt is run by nazis, you are the biggest fools to stumble down the pike
Wake up
September 4th, 2005 at 6:53 pmCindy – You’ll have to forgive Susan – she is very pre-occupied with dikes (and dykes) as well as sexual deformities.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:55 pmSouter #24; Are you kidding or just stupid? The right doesn’t politicize tragedy? What about 9/11? It has been politicized to death and to the horror of countless familes struck by that disaster. Anytime Bush is in political trouble, 9/11 is invoked countless of times. Before the election (but “strangely” not since) national alert levels were changed to get 9/11 chanting administration officials air time. What do you call the pro-Iraq march this 9/11? Sheesh. Some people are just too dumb to see the hypocrisy of their words.
September 4th, 2005 at 6:58 pmOne thing you can say about Cindy, she seems to be more informed than the White House.
and….has about the same level of compassion.
Whammy!
September 4th, 2005 at 7:00 pm#137 Silverpooch: Thank you. Now we know the no buses was the umpteenth lie. Let this be a lesson. in the future, whenever we read the post of a troll, we can all safely assume that all events mentioned by that scum are nothing but lies and fabrications.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:01 pmAll this bus talk.. excuse me, but..didn’t the mayor tell EVERYONE to evacuate? Who was going to drive these death busses?
It wasn’t going to be the “Cindy’s” of the world, right? Her idea of hardship is probably the day she gets the mercedes serviced.
Why do us busdrivers have to be expendable?
Like I need overtime THAT bad!
September 4th, 2005 at 7:06 pmThe Director of Homeland Security, jerkoff, had to read it in the papers to learn thsat the levees had ruptured!
September 4th, 2005 at 7:07 pmThis is what we can rely on in the event of an attack or another disaster!
OK children, when you hear the planes and the warning sirens, crawl under your desks and put your hands on your heads.
Dartanyon, Sorry, I didn’t realize you had already used my nickname for Chertoff! Great minds ….
September 4th, 2005 at 7:15 pm#122 Interesting post.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:28 pmThe Feds are directed to encourage coordination with states, but don’t have to wait for a request before stepping in to save lives in an emergency.
Bush “streamlined” the government and has made a disaster — he’s actually very experienced at turning everything he has a hand in to crap.
For Cindy, Comments 4 &6: From the Times-Picayune, NO newspaper:
CATASTROPHIC
STORM SURGE SWAMPS 9TH WARD, ST. BERNARD
LAKEVIEW LEVEE BREACH THREATENS TO INUNDATE CITY
By Doug MacCash
and James O.Byrne
Staff writers
A large section of the vital 17th Street Canal levee, where it connects to the brand new “hurricane proof” Old Hammond Highway bridge, gave way late Monday morning in Bucktown after Katrina’s fiercest winds were well north. The breach sent a churning sea of water from Lake Pontchartrain coursing across Lakeview and into Mid-City, Carrollton, Gentilly, City Park and neighborhoods farther south and east.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:40 pm~ ~ ~ ~
Nagin has 72 hours, at most, to coordinate and execute a plan to get 1MM people out of NO…but FEMA can’t get 40,000 evacuated in 5 days?
Why do the Bush apologists hate America so much? They’d sacrifice the whole country to keep their AWOL boy-king from being accountable for any of his colossal fuck-ups.
September 4th, 2005 at 7:47 pmHere’s a thought. What if Nagin/Blanco had signed over control of emergency management to FEMA a week ago Thurday? New Orleans would be stacked 6 deep in dead bodies.
The next time a disaster happens….I wonder how that Governor is going to deal with it? Sign over your emergency response efforts to this bunch of incompetents? Scary goddam thought….
September 4th, 2005 at 7:52 pmHey, there’s mighty aphrodite at #139. I’m trying to back you up with some posts here and I get the feeling you are running from me from one site to another. Like the shot up at 139 in reference to “Dyke or Dike” and “sexual deformities.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, aphrododite, but its really you, Ann Coulter in drag, huh? Come on, own up to it. I mean I’m a real fan of yours, but your bull shit arguements gave you away here!
September 4th, 2005 at 8:05 pmSteven Souter: I admire your taste: you obviously think people should admire your “president” after he ran dirty smear campaigns, politicked through churches, had his friends Diebold change Kerry votes to Bush votes, has run a system of graft, caused over 100,000 Americans and Iraqis to die on the basis of lies (a lot of kids from low-income families), impoverished hundreds of thousands of families by allowing manipulation of the economy by having jobs shipped in record numbers out of the country and allowed inshoring while highly qualified Americans were willing to work, and winked while the manufacturing sector was “disappeared” by his corporate cronies out of the country—thusly impoverishing blacks further— And you must especially love Bush and his “friends” for not only their general incompetence but
September 4th, 2005 at 8:21 pmfor allowing all of these hurricane victims to be economically destroyed, many to die, some to be raped and shot— Because the money is all in the pockets of his defense-corporation and oil-corporation friends who using the U.S. armed services to capture and hold oil fields….
It’s profoundly ignorant, self-serving people like you, Souter, who are
September 4th, 2005 at 8:22 pmdestroying this country.
Hey Might Ahole
Proof that your love god is a nazi
Bush family and slave labor at Aushwitz
September 4th, 2005 at 8:23 pmhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/ usa/ story/ 0,12271,1312540,00.html
well, as I see it, there are a lot of excuses floating around for a plethora of ineptitudes.
September 4th, 2005 at 8:28 pmclaiming they didnt know about information that was common knowledge being televised is foolish.
claiming difficulty in transporting manpower and goods is not valid, there are lots of helicopters small and large all over the south capable of dropping food and water onto rooftops within hours of the storm passing.
communication was a problem, but walkietalkies might have helped. portable cell towers might have been flown in by the military. hell, the pentagon has a whole office capable of printing up tens of thousands of propaganda leaflets and dropping them from planes so the populace can have some official information. why no real dissemination of info?
as for anyone defending bush or his cronies, it is about time to recognize the fact that he is a criminal.
he has a criminal record. he was guilty of insider trading in texas and it was filed away at his dad’s behest. he has never supplied any evidence as to his wherabouts for the last years of his military service and could easily have had his father pull strings to get him his “honorable” discharge without actually completing his duty. he has increased the nations debt to over nine trillion dollars. he has deliberately caused an attack on another nation by presenting fraudulent evidence as justification for the attack. he
covered up the fact that the saudis funded 9/11 hijackers because they are family friends. he allows a traitor access to classified information after that person revealed the identity of a covert operative during a time of war. there is lots more. how much overwhelming evidence do you need?
a lot. since the bad guys now run every federal agency that would call for an investigation, investigate and/ or prosecute the administration, there isn’t really any recourse for any of us is there? they dont even have to count our votes anymore.
…the enormity of the logistics involved…
Little nit, but I do wish that people would look up “enormousness” and “enormity” before using them. But then again, Cindy, maybe you weren’t misusing the word, and if so, I apologise…. ;-)
Cheers,
September 4th, 2005 at 8:31 pmJust to let you know, NED has taken time out on this miserable weekend for the right(and of course the victims) to post as Steven Souter. I think it was the “we will choke you ” that gave him away.
September 4th, 2005 at 8:33 pmPlus, he is on other threads with the same old tired recognizable thoughts. Think he gets time and a half on weekends?
Nice post Dan. Says it in a nutshell – because to tell all the details would take several pages of text.
September 4th, 2005 at 8:36 pmlet us not forget, when terry schiavo had her feeding tube LEGALLY withdrawn, congress took all of eight hours to return from break on a sunday in order to interfere with a privat persons right to die a peaceful death, but it took five days to gather them in order to okay money to save tens of thousands of lives!
September 4th, 2005 at 8:38 pmDan
Amen –
Right wing Christian rule #23
Always rush to the aid of one person long gone
Rule #24
September 4th, 2005 at 8:42 pmSmile beatifically at the torment of thousands
So NED is now Souter
Wonder if Souter/Ned was able to took part in the satanic Opus Dei ritual performed by Scalia and Thomas on Rehnquist. Time to open up that space for one more evil.
September 4th, 2005 at 8:43 pmthanks Marie,
September 4th, 2005 at 8:46 pmserious times await our whole country, especially those victims and thier rescuers.
typhus, dysentery and cholera are going to be a genuine risk shortly. lots of water, very warm temperatures and a vast pool of growing media including dead bodies in the sweltering heat.
add to that the tons of various toxic substances in the pool- think about it, oil and gas and antifreeze from cars and trucks, rotting bodies, food, sewerage backed up, household chemicals, god only knows what else from flooded factories.
those folks better be more careful than thier leaders are capable of warning them.
You Bush haters are begging for it! My god, you are unbelievably filled with hate for this man.
Twerent always that way, Cindy, but he worked real hard at it. He got it the old fashioned way: He got it the old fashioned way: He earnred it.
September 4th, 2005 at 8:46 pmi would not be surprised if travel to and from the region were to be curtailed or severely limited, despite the constitution, in an effort to control the spread of disease if it occurrs.
September 4th, 2005 at 8:50 pmthe fuel problems will start to hit the rest of us shortly.
despite the figures the poor mathmeticians are touting lately, real numbers show the price of crude ooil is up over one hundred percent over the same time last year.
want to hear what is gong to reault from that?
Dan
September 4th, 2005 at 8:50 pmYou haven’t been a good citizen and listen to the media – there’s no danger of infection from those dead bodies
there are no real republicans who are pragmatic and real, only illusioned people who cannot see truth through thier denial.
September 4th, 2005 at 8:55 pmif there were a televised event in which the entire whitehouse staff killed infants and barbequed them in the rose garden, all the while smiling and waving at the cameras as they smacked thier lips and ate thier fill, there would still be a few so deeply in denial that they would call the press liberal for covering it at all.
i assume you are joking.
September 4th, 2005 at 8:57 pmnot to blow my own horn, but i just finished an associate degree in science, with a hefty dose of microbiology. yes, those bodies present a danger.
would you drink the water flowing through the streets of new orleans?
everyone can sit around pointing fingers of blame, but truly brilliant people offer solutions as well.
September 4th, 2005 at 9:08 pmhere are some-
do not rebuild the city. it was a class A design error on the first place. built in a hole below sea level with levees only capable of barely withstanding a cat 3. is doing it all again really something we want to see?
immediately withdraw from iraq. we can use all those guys and equipment here alot more than over there. they are free now. let em sink or swim. iran will eventually swallow them and start a united islamic republic anyway
and it wont matter to us anyway- we will be running out of oil and half of our populace will be freezing and starving too.
eminent domain a whole shitload of houses and put these folks up, give them vouchers for a few years and get it moving soon.
do not attempt to cut down all the trees that would be required to replace all those buildings, it would be more devastating (almost) than the administration has been so far to the environment.
I gotta say, I agree with Dan…
September 4th, 2005 at 9:19 pm>do not rebuild the city.
Then, while we’re at it, let’s tear down Galveston – it’s been destroyed by a hurricane and will happen again; Los Angeles is about to get it from an earthquake; oh yeah – Seattle is way to close to a real, live volcano…
It wasn’t a levee that broke. It was a *2-foot wide* concrete floodwall designed in the ’60s. (Gee how could that have given way? Who-da-thunk-it?) I bet some people have hot tubs that are wider than that.
The Dutch can build dike/levvy systems that can withstand Cat 5 storms; why can’t we? They even legalized pot and prostitution to boot!
Hmmm… Could it be we’re funding a stupid, badly-executed war against (Take your pick) Saddam, weapons of mass destruction, insurgents, terrorists, freedom’s on the march, oil pipeline protection, mushroom clouds, rape-rooms, did I mention Saddam? He tried to kill my daddy… Osama-bin-laden, anthrax… BOO!… terrorists, axis-of-evil, “significant quantities of uranium from niger”, slam-dunk, shock-and-awe??
You republican apologists really are amazing. Why don’t you guys start calling Bush your “Fuhrer”? You’re showing the exact same blind allegiance that Germany did in the 1930’s and 40’s to another megalomaniac who could do no wrong.
Here’s a good time to contrast the difference between democrat and republican: If a democrat was in the white house and this happened, even the democrats in the country would sadly admit “Man. He screwed up!”
When a republican screws up this bad, they’re praised and the obfuscation begins. People like Cindy – obviously not stupid – just stop thinking for themselves. They accept Bush *no matter what* – it’s unconditional love. It’s also depressing and sickening to the rest of us.
September 4th, 2005 at 9:42 pmjimbob, how many times have you gone to a beach and
September 4th, 2005 at 9:53 pmbuilt a sandcastle at low tide, only to have it swept away when the water comes in with the tide?
the fact is, there are places NOT to build large human settlements. period.
you get taught an awful lesson when you lose ten thousand people and an entire city, wouldnt you think people would swallow thier pride and not have to repeat the lesson.
by the way, the dutch live in fear. of the same thing that just happened to new orleans.
dont make another million people go through this again.
oh yeah, and it WAS a levee that broke. three of them.
September 4th, 2005 at 9:57 pma hundred feet across the base, thirty feet deep. one of the breaks was a few hundred feet long. whoosh.
nothing will be salvageable after soaking for weeks in water, not even the studs in houses.
in time, everything gets washed away. yes lots of people live in lousy places, but lots of New Orleans is above water level. technology is available that could have easily prevented the flood. a concerted effort could have evacuated all the people.
September 4th, 2005 at 10:20 pmrebuilding the damaged parts of the city is still some way into the future. we still haven’t staunched the bleeding. we haven’t even begun to deal with the aftermath.
>oh yeah, and it WAS a levee that broke. three of them.
Not according to CBS’s “60-Minutes” tonight. According to them not one levee failed. A “levee” is an earthen structure. What failed were technically “flood walls” – not “levees”. Check out tonight’s “60-Minutes” transcripts and if you still want to debate it, please do so with them.
>the fact is, there are places NOT to build large human settlements. period.
So, you advocate losing one of the largest ports in the US, one of the largest tourist centers, one of the oldest, most treasured cities, full of culture and life because *you* deem it unsafe?
You really don’t feel we can handle this, technologically speaking? And you feel this way because a couple of 2-foot thick walls broke?
More Dutch land is below sea-level than New Orleans but they didn’t give up; they made it work. You would advocate abandoning Amsterdam too I presume? Venice?
I’d be willing to bet that statistically there are cities more likely to “get it” than N.O was two weeks ago.
Besides, it’s a moot point and other than Dennis Hastert, I don’t know too many people who agree with you.
This was a failure of technology that was designed almost 50 years ago. Technology that *should* have been re-designed and re-implemented. I have no doubts that *if done properly* New Orleans could be made as safe as any city near the sea.
And by the way, your same argument could be made for any city close to the ocean in Hurricane season. Let’s abandon ‘em all and run with our tail between our legs.
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on this Dan, but I can tell you one thing and be 100 percent certain about it: New Orleans will be rebuilt. Why? How much tax revenue is the federal government losing *every day* N.O is “offline”?
N.O had what? 100,000 people? Say 80 percent were employed. How much tax revenue was derived from the citizens there every single second of every single day that each one of them worked? Can’t give you any figures but let’s call it “a lot”. The US government needs the dough.
September 4th, 2005 at 10:21 pmi would argue what a levee is- having seen the actual ones themselves and watched the film footage of the earthen structures giving way. yes, fact, it was levees. and they even had a little concrete road down the middle of them. big dirt humps keeping out water. along with the massive multiple pumping stations forced to run 24/7. the equivalent of a continuously sinking ship, bud.
after the titanic sank, would you advocate raising her and reestablishing her as a cruise ship?
as for the port’s value, look at what is really happening here.
September 4th, 2005 at 10:49 pmit is OIL. black gold. texas tea.
there is very little of it left on the planet and we are using it up faster every day. shortly, the lower fifty percent income populace will be unable to afford using it on any scale and you can kiss big transport ships goodbye. and the dandy lifestyle of americans, duh.
yes, anyone can tout the claptrap printed on toilet paper by oil corporations and the puppet bush administration, but get a few post graduate students to do your real number research for you and you will find there is only about twenty years of sweet crude left
not compensating for the huge increases in draw on the world supplies from china and india whose industrial revoluotions are ongoing now and dwarfing ours.
no wonder they are willing to take the heat for drilling in a wildlife refuge. they are getting desperate to find anything that will keep the status quo for our lifestyle.
the loss will be sudden, and there are, factually, no real alternatives to replace the current energy source.
no, wind solar atomic and hydro are not feasable, and growing wheat and corn on the current scale is impossable without the daily input of 40% of our oil imports converted to petrochemical fertilizers. when the oil goes- or when it gets too expensive because of supply and demand- the crops will too, and so will the methods of distributing it.
its not about MONEY, people, its about survival!
when the food and toilet paper and electricity stop coming to your grocery store and home, what do you plan on doing?
yeah, you will probably try to pass me off as doom and gloom or reactionary, but i speak the TRUTH.
the numbers do not lie. its like an old math problem- you know how big the tank was, and you know how fast you are using it, so figure out how long you have till you run out. about 21 years.
but it wont be when the last drop burns in the last lawnmower cutting the last dandelion off the lawn, it will be when the trucker can no longer break even for the trip to deliver your food four thousand miles to your local grocer. it will come when your local regional power generating plant cant pass off the cost of high fuel bills to make your electricity or your home heating oil is ten dollars a gallon. think about it.
in only a couple years, given current trends ( and no one in thier right mind thinks they are going to reverse) the least of our thoughts will be our stockmarket portfolios, federal taxes or the ability to keep ports open for tankers and cargo ships that arent going to come anymore, ever. it will be food and warmth. and surviving.
the facts and the truth back me up.
addendum, i won’t waste time, and i know you’ll want clarifications. there are two basic qualities of oil, heavy crude, which is not feasable to make fuel from, and sweet crude- that which we make our fuels from, including gasolines deisel and fuel oils. there is lots of heavy, very little sweet crude proportionately.
it takes ten per cent more fuel than you get out of it to use grain alchohols. fertilizers, equipment, transportation, storage, retrofitting equipment manufacture, etc.
all the solar, hydro and nuke capabilities added together dont make ten percent of the daily requirement of our country of electricity, not to mention that electric wont replace deisel for truck transportation.
hasnt been a new nuke constructed in twenty years, requires experts in the hundreds to build one, and then you have to get the materiels to run it. and you have to store the waste. yucca mountain isnt done yet.
kind of like building outhouses without digging a hole.
hydrogen is a joke. storing a few miles of fuel at thousands of pounds of pressure in your car is unsafe and did i mention that the only source is hydrocarbon fuels? if you decide to electrlize water for the component oxygen and hydrogen, it takes about nineteen gallons of gas worth of electricity to get one gallon worth of hydrogen that way. so much for sea water.
get ready for a most unpleasant economic and lifestyle crash, my friends. our forefathers set us up by using five hundred years of fuel in a hundred and fifty years. now everything is basically over eighty percent reliant on the finite fossil fuel supplies and we no longer have the luxury of time in which we could have explored alternatives a bit longer.
September 4th, 2005 at 11:13 pmit will be a hard hit, and rebuilding new orleans will draw on those few resources even more than we can afford.
sure, keep things comfortable a bit longer, build the oil loading facilities back and the refineries and stall it a little longer, but dont put another city under sea level to drown when the fuel to run the pumps runs out and it goes under again. or the eighty percent of it at that elevation.
Chertoff’s a jag-off.
September 5th, 2005 at 12:03 amcindy ism “having fun”. that pretty much says it all about the right.
September 5th, 2005 at 12:18 amRe: 171 dan, we are not aiming for fusion. Just burning the stuff would be enough. And as an aside, off-shore tides produce more energy each day than we humans use in a decade – to bad we do not harvest it.
September 5th, 2005 at 12:29 amThis is simple.
Fire someboby
and
Put the grownups in charge
This was a failure of historic proportions.
September 5th, 2005 at 12:46 amThe City of New Orleans is 60% Black. The Mayor of New Orleans is Black. The city has one of the best bus systems to carry people from point A to B because many of its citizens do not own a car. Why didn’t the Mayor of New Orleans put the City Busses together to gather people and get them out town? The people were TOLD to leave and they didn’t……Bush is not responsible for the evacuation blunder or the breaking of the leeves.
The Levees that broke were NEW and were designed by the Army Corp of Engineers. They crumbled from the bottom and then the top. There will no doubt be some looking into the “quality” of materials on that job.
The main highways enter New Orleans from the East and the West. The East was badly damaged. The West needed to be checked for damage before heavy equipment, busses etc. could enter New Orleans to help.
If ONLY THE MAYOR HAD GATHERED THE PUBLIC BUSSES AND SENT THEM OUT OF TOWN WITH THE PEOPLE OF NEW ORLEANS. THOUSAND COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED AND OR REMOVED FROM THIS DISASTER SITE.
September 5th, 2005 at 1:03 am“Chertoff’s a jag-off”
He sure is. His denials and spin are pathetic. He’s just another puppet of the Rove propaganda machine and his “talking points”.
September 5th, 2005 at 1:25 amWe are paying these people to do a job for us, the people of America, and they are not doing it. They must be removed and replaced with the best, the brightest, the most qualified and experienced professionals America has to offer. Now.
Enough already, all our lives are at stake.
All this “blame the victim” crap has got to stop. FEMA had DAYS of warning to prepare, or at least have an emergency plan in place. PERIOD. There were YEARS of warnings about the levees…Bush and co. cut the budget for that. PERIOD.
The National Guard in the area was severely understaffed due to Bush’s pet war in Iraq. PERIOD. What more do you need to know?
Let’s blame the poor people. It’s their damn fault. They deserve to die, right?
September 5th, 2005 at 1:35 amNot to defend this guy, but water coming over a levee and a levee failing are two different things.
If it’s coming over the levee, and there is a significant amount of water yet to come, it does indicate a high probability of the levee failing in the future, however.
September 5th, 2005 at 2:51 amFEMA KNEW these levies would fail, and they also knew that they local and state governments wouldn’t be able to handle this without their help. They are simply trying to shirk their failures and responsibilities as all CONservatives do when they fail miserably. This is typical of right wing psychotics…
September 5th, 2005 at 3:28 amThe breach of the 17th Street Canal levee – the breach responsible for the serious flooding – happened during the day Monday, and as the following article states, emergency officials were all too aware of it before nightfall on Monday.
Except Chertoff & Co., apparently.
Here’s part of the story that appeared in the N.O. Times-Picayune Tuesday morning. I’ve bolded pertinent passages:
Levee breach floods Lakeview, Mid-City, Carrollton, Gentilly, City Park
By Doug MacCash
and James O’Byrne
Staff writers
A large section of the vital 17th Street Canal levee, where it connects to the brand new ‘hurricane proof’ Old Hammond Highway bridge, gave way late Monday morning in Bucktown after Katrina’s fiercest winds were well north. The breach sent a churning sea of water coursing across Lakeview and into Mid-City, Carrollton, Gentilly, City Park and neighborhoods farther south and east.
As night fell on a devastated region, the water was still rising in the city, and nobody was willing to predict when it would stop. After the destruction already apparent in the wake of Katrina, the American Red Cross was mobilizing for what regional officials were calling the largest recovery operation in the organization’s history.
Police, firefighters and private citizens, hampered by a lack of even rudimentary communication capabilities, continued a desperate and impromptu boat-borne rescue operation across Lakeview well after dark. Coast Guard choppers with search lights criss-crossed the skies.
Officers working on the scene said virtually every home and business between the 17th Street Canal and the Marconi Canal, and between Robert E. Lee Boulevard and City Park Avenue, had water in it. Nobody had confirmed any fatalities as a result of the levee breach, but they conceded that hundreds of homes had not been checked.
September 5th, 2005 at 6:23 amWhat you people don’t understand is the administration was working on the Hurricane problem by triangulating their help.
bush from crawford, Cheney from an undisclosed vacation in Montana, and Condi from Ferragamo.
I don’t know about hurricanes, earthquakes or terrorism, but when a bunch of arabian horses get loose and terrorize a city, we will have the right man for the job!
September 5th, 2005 at 6:27 am” Why didn’t the Mayor of New Orleans put the City Busses together to gather people and get them out town? The people were TOLD to leave and they didn’t……Bush is not responsible for the evacuation blunder or the breaking of the leeves.”
Yes, Jay, the mayor told the people to evacuate but without transportation it is very difficult to leave. as far as using the bus system, who was gonna drive these ‘death busses’?
while Bush isn’t responsible for the evacuation or the levee’s he IS responsible for the federal response (or lack thereof) that occurred. why did it take 6 days for federal response? There really is no excuse for the incompetence in this.
People should be angry with this administration’s poor performance in this emergency – particularly when compared with the quick responses to the 2004 (election year)huricanes in florida.
Two Days after Frances made landfall in Florida in 2004 FEMA had (according to a Washington press release):
-About 100 trucks of water and 280 trucks of ice present
- 900,000 Meals-Ready-to-Eat are on site in Jacksonville
-Over 7,000 cases of food in Winter Haven
-Disaster medical assistance teams (DMAT) are on the ground
-The Departments of Health and Human Services, Veterans Affairs, and Defense together have organized 300 medical personnel to be on standby….
FEMA’s lack of response this time is indicative of this administrations lack of concern for anything but themsleves and their backers.
September 5th, 2005 at 6:31 amAre people like Cindy volunteers? Or are they, maybe, paid researchers? If I were part of the republican leadership, I would want to test my arguments on a place like this.
September 5th, 2005 at 8:44 amWhy the obsession in defending Bush.
This guy has slept through BoD meetings, has yet to prove he showed up for National Guard duty, has walked away from countless business failures, executed people by his opwn admission as governor of Texas without reviewing their files (thats the law in Texas), was too concerned about Stem cell research to read an important NASc memo on August 6, 2001, thought it was better to sit a reda a book to school children for 7 minutes while this country was under attack, the list is endless. Evading responsibility and playing the part of a cheerleader versus a team captain is his MO.
Bush’s budget priorities created the possibility for this dissater, his political people at FEMA and Homeland Security turned a blind eye to the problems —- to quote a real tough President “the Buck stops here”
September 5th, 2005 at 9:36 am172 & 173:
September 5th, 2005 at 9:59 amDan, check this out.
http://321energy.com/editorials/bainerman/bainerman083105.html
Didn’t anyone hear about the number of people who did manage to either walk or drive a car to the highway and were turned away by armed guards and dogs? I saw one old man in a car the other day tell his story, and yesterday I saw others (and they were backed up by Mayor Nagin) who claimed they WALKED to the highway but when they neared an upscale mall where a fire was burning in one of the stores, they were met with the force of arms and had to turn back — “for their own safety” — Nagin asked if perhaps, the thought of poor blacks coming within yards of their Lord and Taylor or Neiman-Marcus stores was a “threat” to their merchandise!
September 5th, 2005 at 10:36 am186. ” If I were part of the republican leadership, I would want to test my arguments on a place like this.”
Good point. Cindy might very well be drawing out the argument so they can better tailor their ‘blame the victims/Democrats’ message. She certainly is too articulate to be the typical FR-type Bushbot who can’t string 3 coherent sentences together.
September 5th, 2005 at 12:43 pm“Water coming over the levees” is not indicative of a failing levee. You might say it is indicative of an inadequate levee. It was expected that water would overtop some of the levees until it receded. This is far far different than a burst levee.
You’ll need to do better than the Today Show example. This is spin, not facts. :/
September 5th, 2005 at 4:19 pmRush 22, “water coming over the top of the levee,” or “a failing levee,” or “a burst levee”….That’s all jargon. People drowned. Most were unnecessary. And that’s not spin.
September 5th, 2005 at 4:39 pm***IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT REGARDING KATRINA***
After surfing the net for hours and pilfering others’ clever ideas for monikers, my DOG AND CAT have jointly issued the four decrees below. They’ve commanded me to proclaim these edicts to the human race via this blog. BY ORDER OF MY DOG AND CAT, EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY AND UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, ALL BLOGGERS ARE REQUIRED TO COMPLY WITH THE FOLLOWING:
1. KATRINA, NEW ORLEANS, FEMA
The city of New Orleans shall hereby be referred to as LAKE GEORGE. With a nod to Herbert Hoover, all Katrina relocation centers shall be referred to as BUSHVILLES. FEMA chief Michael Brown, an underachieving Republican crony whose main pre-BushCo career accomplishment involved getting fired from the International Arabian Horse Association, shall hereby be known as BRONCO BROWN, MISMASTER OF DISASTER. Homeland Security Chief Michael Chertoff will be known as MANIPULATIVE MIKE, THE MASTER DISASTER.
2. CHENEY AND RICE
Dick “Heart Attack” Cheney, the cyborg who supported the gross underfunding of New Orlean’s flood control efforts, and then refused to leave his Wyoming vacation once the deluge began, shall hereby be known as DICK BANS DIKE. In tribute to Condi Rice’s thousand-dollar shoe buying spree in New York City during the peak of the crisis, she will hereby be known as IMELDA RICE, STILETTO QUEEN, or NO SHOES, NO SERVICE, at your discretion.
3. BUSHIES
Reflecting a failed presidency and his colossal dereliction of duty this past week, the act of reflexively defending George W. Bush shall hereby be referred to as BUSH FLUFFING. Those who engage in same shall be deemed BUSH FLUFFERS. Should Bush hallucinate about “mandates” or “political capital,” these will be known as FLUFFY BUSH MOMENTS.
4. GOP AND TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH
Rather than focusing on Katrina relief, congressional Republicans will soon fixate on eliminating the Estate Tax, a levy paid only by the wealthiest 1% of estates last year. This GOP giveaway to the rich shall be referred to as THE PARIS HILTON TAX CUT.
I will promptly relay any forthcoming edicts issued by my pets. Failure to comply may result in your furniture being scratched or peed on. BUSH LIKES NICKNAMES, SO LET’S MAKE THESE STICK BY REPEATING THEM IN FUTURE POSTS! My dog and cat thank you.
September 5th, 2005 at 4:45 pmfor kieth h-
September 5th, 2005 at 10:11 pmwhat a blast that site was. still lol. peak oil is not a fraud. it is a certaintity and is probably past us by a couple years. read some of king hubbert’s material.
yes, there is a hydrocarbon cycle, it is tens of millions of years by way of oil. carbon cycles every few thousand years between ice ages.
there is no real theory that oil comes from some mysterious chemical substance in the earths crust. that is a total fabrication on the part of the web site. we know definitively where and when oil was formed. to present this arguement is on the level of presenting divine creationism as a theory of human development. you have to stoop pretty far to avoid and ignore the overwhelming physical evidence. yeah, yeah, those dinosaur bones were put under the ground by the devil to sway your beliefs, so pay no attention to them.
now for the rest of the folks with brains that work-
it is a business website sponsored by oil and gas interests, and they certainly would have it in thier interests to pay to publish anything that leaves them in a good light. even if it is misinformation to avoid public outrage after they find out just how far they have been misled about how secure the energy supply is and how much is really remaining.
for a bit of enlightenment try-
http://321energy.com/editorials/chapman/chapman090205.html
and see the graphs. then read
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Introduction.html
and see something interesting.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393326470/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/104-7045594-5991963?v=glance
It’s amazing that the flat-earth society will deny the evolution of the earth and the origin of fossil fuels because they can’t square it up with Genesis and their 5,000 year old earth.
September 5th, 2005 at 10:20 pmi think most folks are just boggled when they try to comprehend that thier lives are about to change into the lifestyle of the early eighteen hundreds, and thats the lucky ones.
September 5th, 2005 at 10:37 pma lot truly believe that a miracle will occurr and they will miraculously find an endless supply in some remote and heretofore unexplored area of the globe.
think, people, reality. there is not an endless supply.
we have to come to the end of it sometime, and there is no rule book that says it will come at the most convenient moment with a seamless and uneventful change to clean and green alternatives. it is about to happen, and i feel like the old one with his pack on his back
being ridiculed on the way out of pompeii.
those who laughed or didnt heed the warning did not survive.
find a remote spot with clean water, good soil, reasonable climate and low population density.
September 5th, 2005 at 10:43 pmget a good permaculture designer to get a good
system up and running and get out of dodge.
This interview really hits home. We need to find out what went wrong and hold people accountable for their mistakes. I wrote a blog entry this weekend that sums up my thoughts on the issue. It was difficult to write, but not nearly as difficult as this video is to watch.
September 6th, 2005 at 9:24 amHey Dan,
September 6th, 2005 at 9:39 amIt’s kEIth not kIEth.
I too, have a copy of ‘Crossing the Rubicon’.
Apparently, by posting a link, you assume that the poster believes all that is written at the posted site. So, by posting that link, I was attempting to oppose your view ? Very interesting.
The vultures of the venomous left are attacking on two fronts, first that the president didn’t do what the incompetent mayor of New Orleans and the pouty governor of Louisiana should have done, and didn’t, in the early hours after Katrina loosed the deluge on the city that care and good judgment forgot. Ray Nagin, the mayor, ordered a “mandatory” evacuation a day late, but kept the city’s 2,000 school buses parked and locked in neat rows when there was still time to take the refugees to higher ground. The bright-yellow buses sit ruined now in four feet of dirty water. Then the governor, Kathleen Blanco, resisted early pleas to declare martial law, and her dithering opened the way for looters, rapists and killers to make New Orleans an unholy hell. Gov. Haley Barbour did not hesitate in neighboring Mississippi, and looters, rapists and killers have not turned the streets of Gulfport and Biloxi into killing fields.
September 6th, 2005 at 10:28 amNew Orleans levees have had funding cuts for the last 30 years. So blame everyone from Nixon on. You kooks on the left are a laughable lot.
September 6th, 2005 at 10:31 amDarwinism. Live in the hurricane belt in a city below sea level. Choose not to leave (there is always a way), or better yet not to ride out the storm in the shelter (the dome was only at 10k the morning of the storm). Then instead of being a human and taking responsility for a stupid decision, look for someone to blame. Then politicize the whole thing. Have a mayor who says ‘the levee will be fixed in a few hours’ then cry when the federal government does not come to rescue. The first responders for a disaster are supposed to be local goverment. With 90,000 square miles of disaster area do you really expect to have a hot meal, water and a cot within 48 hours? I realize there are lot of goverment workers who just sit around for living, but the manpower to pull that off would be kind of expensive. Get real. Quit looking to politicize just because of the absolute failure of the local government. There were bars open during the ‘mandatory’ evacuation. I don’t think they took this too seriously until it was too late.
September 6th, 2005 at 11:12 amChris,
If you look outside of your crowd of republican excuse makers, you will find that Nagin and Blanco acted as quickly as possible to get 1.3 million people out of an area with only a few exit routes (if you’ve been there, you know). Over a million got out in what was the largest evaluation in US history. In the meantime, the good ole boy governor of MS sat on his fat ass even though Katrina could have (and did) turn eastward and memories of Camille are still strong. As a result, many needlessly lost their lives in an area with fewer people and more escape routes. He is now an official apologist for the Bush Administration.
Also, Blanco is a moderate, blue dog Dem, not a leftwinger. Nagin is to Bush what the Air Traffic Controllers were to Reagan. The ATC supported Reagan and Nagin supported both Bush and Blanco’s rightwing opponent. In both cases the Republicans screwed them both proving that you can’t trust Republicans to support working people or big cities with Democratic mayors.
September 6th, 2005 at 12:19 pmSo Mr. Darwin,
You are saying that those people deserved to die because they didn’t get out of the way fast enough. After all, they were a bunch of dumb poor people anyway, mostly members of an inferior race. But the master race still showed how smart they were, getting out fast.
And we shouldn’t even have a federal government. The States, or maybe even cities should be able to handle their own problems.
Wow, how smart. I wonder why people can’t just realize this?
September 6th, 2005 at 1:18 pm[...] (via thinkprogress.org) [...]
September 6th, 2005 at 2:48 pmI am interested in the phrase “New Orleans dodged the bullet.” Chertoff picked it up from Michael Brown on Friday night.
From CNN NEWSNIGHT AARON BROWN
Hurricane Katrina Pummels Three States
Aired August 29, 2005 – 22:00 ET
MICHAEL BROWN, FEMA: Well, Aaron, I’m just beginning to get that wide -angle view and I’ve got to tell you, it’s very, very sobering. I’ve had some folks out on the reconnaissance helicopters, in fact, some of them were on the helicopters that started doing the rescues from the rooftops.
And I think what we see is, sure, New Orleans dodged the bullet, in the sense that the catastrophic disaster we thought would occur downtown, moved slightly to the east, 30 or 40 miles. But what that meant is that we now have literally neighborhood after neighborhood that is totally engulfed in water.
We still have water coming into those neighborhoods and so my honest assessment is, is that we have a major disaster here where people are not going to be able to get into their homes for weeks, if not months. Right now as we speak, I just talked to some swift-water experts that I brought in from California, the California Urban Search and Rescue Teams. They’ve now deployed down to the Superdome area to start staging. They are very, very sober right now. They think they have a very daunting task in front of them.
September 6th, 2005 at 4:03 pmbdfriend,
September 6th, 2005 at 5:25 pmWow. You managed to play the race card, the class card and also try to accuse me of anti-federalism. Are you a politician? My point, which you missed (most likely not the first time) is the people have to have a little accounability just once in a while. Minimizing personal risk is how humans have survived over the years. Instead we now try to blame others for our shortcomings and take no responsibility for our own actions.
Also, if Nagin is such a brilliant hero why did he not use the 1200+ school buses to get these people out of there?
Darwin,
I read and reread your post and it appeared like social darwinism at its finest. The Bush administration has already been playing the class card (and more or less the race card)for a while now.
OK, let’s assume that Nagin made these mistakes. He should of mobilized the school buses and he said that the levees would be fixed in a few hours. He did start the mandatory evacuaiton as soon as it was evident that Katrina was headed that way. He also cleared the vast majority of a city that is extremely difficult to maneuver in and get out of(have you ever been there?) and a million of the metro area’s residents did leave. He set up a dozen emergency shelters (Superdome was only one). The city is very poor, high crime, and has more than its share of eccentrics. So it was inevitable that residents would be trapped due to lack of opportunity (buses or not), want to stay to protect their few belongings, and those who wanted to party through the storm. What I don’t understand is the governor of Mississippi who didn’t act nearly as aggressively in clearing the coast there, which was a vastly easier job.
And yes, FEMA could have had a lot of hot meals and cots in 48 hours. They did it in FL and in CA under Jamie Lee Witt with less notice. They could have coordinated their efforts with State authorities before the storm hit.
There might have been a 90K square mile area to cover but the vast majority of the population was concentrated in four counties, two in LA and two in MS. Whether you call it politization or not, the fact is that the Federal government under this administration is not able to deliver quick emergency services whether it be politization of FEMA and Homeland Security or an over political President. Personally I would call that, at best, inefficient government.
September 6th, 2005 at 6:33 pmDarwin,
Who was going to drive these ‘death busses’? certainly not a job I would volunteer for when told to evacuate the city.
Bush (and his administration) is taking heat for not reacting quickly or efficiently enough after the hurricane. you can try to blame it all on the mayor but FEMA dropped the ball on this one,- badly. particularly when compared with last year’s reactions.
FEMA’s actions to the 2004 (election year) huricanes in Florida included:
PRE- HURRICANES:
-The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, at FEMA’s request, coordinated the staging of 100 truckloads of water and 100 truckloads of ice at operational centers in Florida
- FEMA provided 10 trailers of generators
-Disaster medical assistance teams (DMAT) on the ground
- Four urban search and rescue teams deployed to Florida — two in Miami and two in Jacksonville. Four teams put on alert.
- Five pharmaceutical caches, containing emergency medical supplies, were pre-positioned.
and 48 hours AFTER Frances hit:
- 900,000 Meals-Ready-to-Eat were on site in Jacksonville
-Over 7,000 cases of food were in Winter Haven to be dispursed.
- The Departments of Health and Human Services, Veterans Affairs, and Defense together organized 300 medical personnel to be on standby
So yes, FEMA could have and should have done a lot more and done it sooner, they’ve done it before. but as you state:
“I realize there are lot of goverment workers who
just sit around for living, but the manpower to
pull that off would be kind of expensive.”
Expensive. I guess those people in NO just weren’t worth the cost. Besides, they didn’t vote for Bush anyway.
September 6th, 2005 at 10:46 pmAgain you have politicized this. Can you define social darwinism versus darwinism in general? Not sure what your point is. You don’t believe in evolution I take it. I didn’t bring up Bush or directly defende his actions yet your attacks are thus. Statistics and comparisons are irrelevant. This was the largest natural disaster to ever hit the USA, both in terms of damage and areal extent. It is apples to oranges so don’t go there. Mistakes were made, but my point is thus. The mistakes were amplified by poor decisions of individuals who were not acting with respect to preservation of their own lives. They screwed up, take some responsibility. It has been known for decades this was a probable event. Hurricanes happen, floods happen (1927). The governor and mayor know in their hearts they made huge mistakes and their futile attempts at casting the blame elsewhere will be revealed. What about Bush pleading the govenor to declare a mandatory evacuation before the storm?
September 7th, 2005 at 10:12 amWhy in the hell would driving a school bus to evacuate people before the hurricane hits be a ‘death’ bus? So the smarter thing was to stay in NO?
It is time for people to hear the truth, that thousands of people made a very stupid decision, and some paid for it with their lives. That is the lesson that should be learned and repeated. Not xxxx is to blame because they are a bad xxxx.
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January 1st, 2006 at 10:56 pm[...] Mike Chertoff, Homeland Security chief 9/4 [Meet the Press 9/4, transcript; quote via thinkprogress 9/4]: Well, I think if you look at what actually happened, I remember on Tuesday morning picking up newspapers and I saw headlines, “New Orleans Dodged the Bullet.†Because if you recall, the storm moved to the east and then continued on and appeared to pass with considerable damage but nothing worse. It was on Tuesday that the levee — may have been overnight Monday to Tuesday — that the levee started to break. And it was midday Tuesday that I became aware of the fact that there was no possibility of plugging the gap and that essentially the lake was going to start to drain into the city. I think that second catastrophe really caught everybody by surprise. [...]
June 27th, 2006 at 8:38 pmI know it’s an old board, and no one’s posted in a while, but here’s an update on the situation in New Orleans (I live on the north shore of lake Pontchartrain, about 30 miles from downtown)…
Population:
The New Orleans population (New Orleans proper), pre-Katrina, was 450,000, plus or minus a few thousand. The current population is approximately 180,000.
The population of St. Tammany parish, immediately north of New Orleans, pre-Katrina, 108,000. The current population is 257,000.
Crime:
In the first 4 weeks of 2007, murder in New Orleans is up some 600%; in the first 8 days of 2007, there were 10 murders in New Orleans. Robberies and other violent crimes are up a comparable percentage.
The National Guard is still patrolling some areas of New Orleans due to the increase in crime and the shortage of law enforcement in the city and surrounding parishes
Politics:
Ray Nagin was re-elected as mayor, despite the gaffs and myriad faux pas he’s committed since the storm.
William Jefferson, known to be less than scrupulous (the FBI found $90,000 in cash in his freezer, and the intimation is that he is connected to some shady individuals from South America), re-elected to Congress in a landslide, primarily due the rantings of the autocratic sheriff of Jefferson Parish.
The population is divided between the people who cannot believe it’s come to this, and those who whole-heartedly support the old status quo, and old-time politicians keep getting elected (does anyone remember the Kingfish?)
Community:
The infrastructure of the city and the outlying areas is still in poor shape, some 17 months after the storm. Despite the in-flow of monies from Federal and private agencies for relief and re-building little is being done.
Entergy, the electric utility in New Orleans is still trying to re-structure after having declared bankruptcy, and until 4 or 5 months ago, there were still areas of New Orleans without power
Businesses and private citizens find it nearly impossible to find insurance for properties south of I-12 and when they can find it, it’s at some ridiculous increase over the cost pre-Katrina.
The surrounding areas are finding it difficult to deal with the influx of Katrina émigré’s, not surprising, considering that most of the surrounding parishes were borderline rural prior to the storm.
The economy of the city is failing, as the taxbase has been grievously injured; at one quarter of the pre-storm population, and businesses leaving in droves, taxes are at an all time low.
The NOPD is short 1000-1500 officers (depending on who’s figures you accept), and the leadership is pessimistic about their being able to fill those positions.
Acres and acres of homes stand silent and unoccupied in neighborhoods like the ninth ward and New Orleans east, whole communities like Chalmette and Meraux have a tiny fraction of their old population back, and will remain deserted; the old residents have gone to the North Shore or left the state entirely. Vast tracts of New Orleans and it’s near vicinity are deserted, flood washed ruins, and will most likely remain so
General Observations:
The small town in which my wife, step-daughter and I reside is over-run with the one-time residents of towns like Chalmette, Meraux and Arabi, whose homes are gone or beyond repair, the streets and roads are congested with the traffic generated by the new residents of this parish, but oddly enough, small businesses and restaurants are failing because they can’t get staff to meet their needs. New houses stand vacant because people who can afford to buy them can’t get insurance for them. The outlook is bleak, at least from the floodline here, and to be perfectly frank, the patient has to want to get better to be healed.
People will say that this is too bleak, that I’m wrong and that there are plenty of people who want to rebuild New Orleans and make it as great a city as it ever was, but the problem is that too many people don’t seem to care, no one wants to assume the leadership of this undertaking (and who could blame them)…the leaders all point fingers at one another (the old opinion of Louisiana politicians was true then, and it’s true now) and try to lay blame on someone else; the money that’s coming into the state for relief seems to be getting diverted, and all the while the empty houses and buildings on both sides of Pontchartrain stay empty…
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