Oh you know, I can sling with the best of them. Unfortunatly none of them are here. Yep, nice talking to you too. How could you not like a guy who calls himself Terrytheturtle? ;-)

Lovell, you ignorant slut….

I have over 100,000 living right next door to me that were too poor to drive, too poor to pack food and too poor to help their neighbors whom they left stranded in wheelchairs or too sick and tired to catch one of the buses that the Mayor of NO left parked. But those 100,000 got out of town somehow. Now you tell me who is it that should be blamed. Never mind. Bush = Hitler. I know. Dumbass.

(sarcasm)

If you are too poor to leave your town/state and you get killed…. too bad.

If you are too poor to leave and you live, and you need food/water… too bad.

If you are too poor, you live and you take food/water …it is OK to shoot you.

If you are super rich, and in power….you can stall rescue efforts and spin it into something positive, rather than deal with the facts that this was racially motivated, and motivated by greed and economics.

If you are super rich, and those poor people seek shelter and food in your state, you CAN GIGGLE AND SAY THEY WERE UNDERPRIVILIGED ANYWAY SO THIS IS WORKING WELL FOR THEM.

If you are super rich, you can say things like …. I can’t waste my “beautiful” mind worrying about them….

Strange game these days.

Dan Rather, you can snort on to your keyboard or you can read this and consider my point. http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=234&row=1 Either case, that’s not the name of the thread, so we can save that for another day…

I don’t need the memos either, but they do help the argument. When you start talking about margins, the argument holds – the pressure of EPA and OHSA regulations, clean gasoline and so on made for a hellish environment to make a profit while the 80s/90s surge in over production went on. If you fold everything, treehugging, over supply etc. into the reasons why no new refineries were built, then I agree with you – in the 80s and 90s no new refineries – the demand and margins couldn’t justify it. My argument stays intact despite your two new refineries because margins have gone so obscenely the other way that there is more money to be made, provided Americans continue to drive Hummers and crap like that. US oil corporations, Detroit and the politicos taking their money crush any attempt to address the energy problem from the demand side, it’s always a supply problem to them because they gain as demand goes up to meet supply.

I’m not against a profit at all, however, the fact is that corporations are amoral piles of money trying to become bigger amoral piles of money. It is as simple as that – they are not people they have no sense of ‘common good’ or community. Unless you constrain the sandbox they play in with regulation for the ‘common good’ then you get a new ‘Gilded Age’ of oppressive capitalism (as in late 1800s that gave birth by reaction to the labor movement, modern social democracy etc etc). You may snort over your keyboard again at that, but I think I should point out two inconsistencies in your posts today:
(1) That Pemex refinery and why it is a dangerous sh**hole – how does a balanced regulatory enviroment and a union movement account for the difference between that Pemex refinery and the ones you work in? Mexico has neither. Without OSHA, refineries like Texas City would be killing a lot more people every year inside and outside the gate – try and remember that next time you walk through the gate.
(2) You commented that with some ‘USA #1′ kind of comment that you can watch what the Arabs do with their oil wealth compared to the US. Hmm, how much of that is due to a history of a balanced democratic system distributing that wealth with social security, GI bills, public education to 18, highways and electrification, New Deal etc etc – those social programs you would rather have as money in your pocket. Think about whether or not you would build your own road from your house to work or whether you would even have the education to build a road yourself. In my opinion, libertarianism is simply opting out, its a cop out.

Hindsight is 20-20. Sorry, I wish I had proof, but I was published in a major paper some 12 years or so ago because I pointed out precisely what I wrote here today in an objection to some ill-informed ‘oil will never run out’ crap they published one day. I’ve been making money on that prediction ever since. Although I agree that the problem is extremely complex and not easy to dig into over a blog. You’ll just have to take my word for that one.

Folks like you: you know nothing of my politics or my experience or my nationality except what I have written, don’t make assumptions.

Dungheap of history: I think that you are dreaming that you’ll get rid of the ‘unwashed masses’. Look at Latin America, the Monroe Doctrine is over. The US economy is reduced to selling each other pizzas and houses with borrowed Chinese money. The American way of life, I agree with what Dick Cheney says, is ‘non negotiable’ – but he and I don’t agree why it is true.

The Republicans do seem to have all the marbles, don’t they? It won’t last but it will probably end badly.

Good discussion, thanks.

Come on Cindy give it a break. I’m sure the old lady doesn’t blame Bush. Hope you didn’t give her any money though. The “Bush Stole My Gas” scam is an old one.

Ohhhhh, you’re killing me Terry. Dang near flooded my keyboard on that one buddy. You should give a warning or something.

“The contents of the memo in the link I gave you bear up when you study refining margins for the last twenty years.”

In other words the margins were low? Why was that? Higher price of crude? Union pressure on wages? New environmental demands that cost a lot of money? Wouldn’t you be looking for ways to increase profits to meet the demands of costs or is profit a dirty word?

The fact is they were all in the same boat and they didn’t need to pull schenagins to raise prices. They just raise them and everyone else follows suit in order to survive. By the way, your theory of engineered shortages due to artificially reduced refinery capacity goes out the window when considering the plans I’m working on right now for two new huge refineries.Somehow they decided it was in their best interest to have a product to sell. Go figure.

“Overcapacity and complacency all round: in the mid-nineties gasoline was cheaper in real terms than it had been since before Yom Kippur. And as far demand coming out of nowhere – nonsense, the China/India growth curves were obvious in the mid 90s. As soon as the tax on your truck and the soccer moms SUVS got waived, my granny could have told you what was going to happen and she’s been dead since 1983.”

Hindsight is 20/20 as you know. Grandma didn’t have a clue and neither did you. Prices go up on everything don’t they? Gas prices as far as I know or you’ve been able to show haven’t exceeded the median inflation rate. Like I said, ten year old memo’s even if true don’t explain today’s $3.00 gas. There’s a lot of reasons and to simplify it like you’ve done to make a political point is not just stupid but it’s dishonest.

I don’t deny that it is in the oil co’s interest to maintain a balance of supply and demand and not flood the market like they did in the 60’s but still they are in the business to make money and unrefined crude is in fact worthless. Further, I don’t doubt that there is some unscrupulous profiteering because of the war and because of the storm but to say that it is the only reason we need consider is simply not true and denies the reality of the hit we took from Katrina and the other factors I’ve mentioned.

On a personal note:

The Progressives, those I like to refer to as the “Filthy Left” have a lot to learn about America. It’s almost like they are foreigners the way they try and hoodwink Americans. Frankly, I think most of them are but that’s another story. The point is you folks have nearly single handedly destroyed our two party system. We don’t trust the Democrats anymore because of you and we’re not going to vote for them as long as you’re around.

That leaves the Republicans to walk away with all the marbles as they have been doing and that’s not good for anyone. I’m a declared independent and it’s my considered opinion that if you people aren’t brought down and deposited on dung heap of history pretty quickly we can kiss our country goodbye. It won’t matter what the price of gas is then.

The contents of the memo in the link I gave you bear up when you study refining margins for the last twenty years. Overcapacity and complacency all round: in the mid-nineties gasoline was cheaper in real terms than it had been since before Yom Kippur. And as far demand coming out of nowhere – nonsense, the China/India growth curves were obvious in the mid 90s. As soon as the tax on your truck and the soccer moms SUVS got waived, my granny could have told you what was going to happen and she’s been dead since 1983.

Loser, everything I say is significant. Much more significant than your ten year old “group internal memo” cooked up by crooked lawyers. But it does look like it was typed up on the same IBM Selectric Dan Rather has been looking for. You might want to give him a call.

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Group_Internal_memos_show_oil_companies_limited_refineries_to_drive_up__0907.html

You believe that the U. S. Constitution prohibits the open recognition of any one God by our federal (or any state) government to the exclusion of others, and the exhibition of religious symbols on public grounds without the equal embrace of all other traditions… and as they number in the thousands, this makes it physically impossible to implement, making the overt display of such symbols impractical.

Or you believe that Al Gore may have won the 2000 presidential election, something we will really never know for sure due to the fact that voter recounts were prematurely stopped.

Or you believe that most television and print news outlets in this country are politically neutral, but that reporting on everything going hunky-dory in the government doesn’t get viewers.

Or you believe that restricting private gun ownership will reduce the number of guns that are fired and thus the number of people shot.

Or you believe that the U. S. Constitution is a document created by “living, breathing” humans, and that the Supreme Court Justices exist to ensure that the nuances of its text do not conflict with the essential truths that those wise– but fallible– men were espousing — that law should be based on the protection of liberties, not a vague and arbitrary moral standard.

Or you believe that Charles Darwin’s macro-evolution theory has flaws, but that the evidence for evolution has been presented in a nearly airtight scientific process; and that the existence of a Creator is fully compatible with this scientific evidence.

Or you believe that the U. S. should be a signatory to the Kyoto Treaty because when other countries don’t adhere to our treaties, we don’t like it either.

Or you believe that Michael Moore actively embraces his inalienable right to liberty, his First Amendment right to free speech, and his important American freedom to dissent.

Or you believe that requiring anyone to recite anything that makes them deeply and profoundly uncomfortable violates their “civil rights.”

Or you believe that the current administration of the United States of America has a decidedly imperialistic bent and is perverting the values that the nation has historically held dear.

Or you believe that private clubs like the Boy Scouts of America do not have a single conscience and do not have the right to approve or disapprove of anything that is not criminal.

Or you hope that affirmative action programs will someday become unnecessary.

Or you believe that illegal aliens have the same human rights as other humans.

Or you believe that big oil companies make money from the sale of gasoline and sadly share a lot of it with the federal and state governments in the form of lobbying money and campaign contributions.

Or you believe that most American soldiers joined the military because it is honorable, the money is good and, under a sane administration, they would not be put in harm’s way for a dubious reason.

Or you believe that taxpayer money should be used to fund a number of things that make the world a better place and separate us from the other animals of this earth.

Or you believe that the one element that should not work to abridge your rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is the federal government.

Or you believe that abortion is a painful, horrifying, difficult choice that is fraught with moral uncertainty, and therefore should not be the realm of politicians but be each family’s choice.

Or you believe that Al-Qaeda is dangerous to American lives, but George W. Bush is dangerous to the American way of life.

Or you believe that Rush Limbaugh calls people names and lies, but that Al Franken backs up his assertions, kind and unkind, with facts.

Or you believe that drilling for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) in Alaska will destroy a whole lot more of the environment than investing in alternative fuel sources will.

Or you believe that cutting taxes on the “rich” will lead to the government only taking money from the poor, which makes no sense at all.

Or you believe that the invasion of Iraq by U. S.-led coalition forces violated international sensibilities.

Or you believe that things like the education system, the healthcare system, and the social security system are best funded by federal agencies, as opposed to private citizens who may, like the Boy Scouts, want to pick and choose who said funds go to.

Or you believe that spanking an unruly child is probably not the best or only way to discipline him or her, but every situation is different.

Or you believe that Hillary Clinton was genuinely shocked when Bill admitted to the entire nation the details of something that should have been a private affair between him and his family.

And if, by chance, you believe all of the above propositions to be true, then you are DEFINITELY a very intelligent person, and we expect you to run for office next term because you obviously have your shit together.

That right wing cutsie propaganda little laundry list from Chris is loony, daffy and ridiculous. A lunatic reporting from the asylum, much like pp’s meaningless, superfluous ‘comments.’

Left wing propaganda, right wing propaganda, if it is bullshit, it’s bullshit.

It don’t matter. We’re humans, no matter which stripe, and we make mistakes. These days, they’re piling high.