Exclusive: Former Head of U.S. Central Command Blasts Administration Over Iraq
Exclusive: Former Head of U.S. Central Command Blasts Administration Over Iraq
American Progress hosted a press roundtable with retired Marine Corps General Joseph Hoar on September 13. Hoar headed U.S. Central Command following Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, overseeing U.S. forces in the Persian Gulf after the first Iraq war.
Gen. Hoar was blistering in his assessment of the current conflict, and the failure of the Bush administration’s civilian leadership to grasp the dynamics on the ground in Iraq. Excerpts follow (or read the full transcript here):
Iraq is like our Revolutionary War, except now we’re the British:
Well, it’s true [that the two conflicts are alike], but we’re on the wrong side. We’re the Brits. This is part of the hubris of this crowd that would think that in a country where 95 percent of the population was tribal, where it had been under various colonial rules for however long – since the Caliphate I guess – that all of a sudden this thing was going to turn around overnight. By the way, I just finished reading [David] McCullough’s book, 1776. We’re in there. (Laughter.) … Yeah, but we have red coats.
Iraq’s political development is essential; the war cannot be won simply by killing more Iraqis:
I’m not at all optimistic about the outcome [in Iraq]. I think part of the reason is that our leadership – civilian leadership has got it wrong. Once the government was overthrown, the requirement from there on in was for political leadership; for the politics to take the lead, rather than the military side. … We’ve had three successive civilian leaders out there, all of whom in my judgment have been ineffective; one bordering on criminal, but the other two relatively ineffective as well. And as a result, the object out there is to kill more Iraqis. I want to tell you that you cannot win this war by killing Iraqis. Now, that ought to be self-evident, but it apparently is not.
As long as Iraq’s insurgents don’t lose, they win:
Ho Chi Minh won as long as he didn’t lose, and these guys [Iraqi insurgents] are in the same category. They are on an entirely different track than we are. This is the George Washington plan: don’t get decisively engaged, hang in there, sooner or later events are going to change and the foreign invaders are going to lose.
Specific steps to improve the security situation in Iraq:
In the list of security things, first of all you have to protect this electoral process that’s ongoing. And then the second priority would be to continue to train Iraqis, but to redouble our efforts and to make sure that they have the appropriate equipment and so forth. Stop conducting search-and-destroy missions out over territory that you’re not going to occupy after you’ve carried out these sweeps, and concentrate on the population centers and the political side of things.
Iraq will be a terrorist breeding ground in the region for years to come:
I want to leave you with something that I think is really important. I was in the Middle East on a trip of five countries this past winter, and in Saudi Arabia there seemed to me to be agreement that, regardless of what happens in Iraq, these jihadis that are now there…, these people are going to be well trained and be out of a job, and they’re going to disperse into the local countries and continue their work. And so it seems to me that the Defense Department not only needs to think about disengaging in Iraq, but to develop the contingency plans if you wind up with a full-scale insurgency in, say, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, or if these people redouble the efforts of Hezbollah and Hamas in Israel.
Read the full transcript here.
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It is about time that the military leaders stand up and tell it like it really is. We are the British and the insurgents are like the revolutionaries.
We were the insurgents in the revolutionary war and the stupid right wingers don’t understand that.
We peremptively attacked Iraq. Where do the right wing assholes think the Republican guard went? Do they think they just turned into farmers?
They became the insurgency.
But, they will believe Bush when he says that they are just a bunch of terrorists.
Wrong again. Just like everything else Bush says.
September 23rd, 2005 at 10:46 pmWhy does General Hoar hate America?
Sorry General, the Bush Apologists will be around shortly to Swift Boat you. How could you possible know more about the situation than George “AWOL” Bush or Dick “5 Deferments” Cheney?
September 23rd, 2005 at 10:50 pmShorter Gen. Hoar: we’ve fucked everything up, it will never get better and we’ve probably unleashed forces that are going to spread conflict in the region for generations.
Wow, I feel better!
September 23rd, 2005 at 10:51 pmActually, I agree with him fully – the same could be said for Vietnam. My hope for the Iraqi people is that eventually do create a democratic government despite our fascist and corporatist meddling. It’s a hard task in the best of circumstance and Iraq is not the best of circumstance.
My fear is that it will be more like Ethiopia and Somalia which disentegrated after the colonialists left.
September 23rd, 2005 at 10:54 pmThe biggest problem is that not one of the Bush adaminstration has served in the military. How can they possibly think they would know how war works.
“I am a war president.”
The fvck you are. You are an imbicile.
I wish that fvcker would come anywhere near my home town, so I could give him a little (Go fvck yourself Mr. Cheney) love.
September 23rd, 2005 at 10:55 pmThis just in from Captain Obvious: when both sides are ’staying the course’, bet on the ‘home side’
September 23rd, 2005 at 11:30 pm“Support our troops” = It’s over.
September 23rd, 2005 at 11:49 pmI wonder how much blood has to be spilled so that bushie can proudly proclaim that he is a “war president”?
September 24th, 2005 at 12:15 amHis ambition has ended up hoisting him on his own pitart. His luck has finally run out, thanks to mother nature, but we are ending up paying the price. As usual.
francis,
Sadly, no blood was shed when Bush declared himself a “War President”
Anybody ever se Gladiator?
That is exactly what is going on here. We have a president (ceasar) who thinks he is a war president (ceasar), but has never gone to war. Someday, a gladiator will rise and……
You won’t use the Patriot act on me.
September 24th, 2005 at 12:28 am#7
“Sadly, no blood was shed when Bush declared himself a “War Presidentâ€
Wow, that didn’t come out right. Sadly is not the right word. I meant something alon gthe lines of:
Stupidly, idoditly, moronicly, etc.
Something like that.
I meant Bush was sad.
September 24th, 2005 at 12:45 amThe good soldier is the last who wants war, but the first to go when called. Bush is the opposite of this, he failed to do his duty when called, and he fabricates a war where good soldiers die. He’s truly unworthy to hold any public office.
September 24th, 2005 at 1:03 am[...] You Don’t Say… JT Davis posted this on September 24, 2005 at 11:44 am | In Iraq War | Exclusive: Former Head of U.S. Central Command Blasts Administration Over Iraq [...]
September 24th, 2005 at 2:08 amAll marines are cowardly, liberal pussies! Pinko commie fascist peter puffers!
September 24th, 2005 at 2:10 amHa!
September 24th, 2005 at 3:31 amJohnWayneGacy was a fat businessman who raped other men – how ironic to use that name to call others puffers…
While John was a registered democrat (like lots of chicago was), he was a conservative repressed homosexual businessman (honorary republican)… Sexual repression turns folks into Gacy and MrWrong. They become deranged hateful religious psychopaths…
September 24th, 2005 at 4:42 amKnow what EVERY serial killer has in common? Being abused as a child… Any wonder so many republicans end up serial killers…
September 24th, 2005 at 4:56 amOf course the Americans are seen as the “British,” either in context of the American Revolutionary War or the Iraqi resistance. With the degree of Anglophilia among the Republicans (count the number who have accepted subjection through Knightliness to the Anglaloid crown since and including Reagan), it is just as if the Tories from the late 18th Century have become determined to exact their revenge on the “Colonies.” Coupled with that, the Buscists seem to be all too intent on repeating every single foreign entanglement mistake that the Brits made … Iraq, Palestine, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan/India, among others.
September 24th, 2005 at 5:54 amBush must have been on a coke and kegger sabbatical the semester they were teaching US Pre-Constitutional History at Yale…
September 24th, 2005 at 8:01 amBush is a disgrace to losers everywhere
September 24th, 2005 at 8:10 amThe right wing in this country has too long thought the military was a branch of the Republican party. General Hoar has underscored an important point that the left has not fully accepted: that many, MANY military people are against the war in Iraq and have been from day one. Only the retired can express their opinions without repercussions because we must never question our commander-in-chief, whether republican or democratic president. To do otherwise would be like the police questioning the judges. That is why Bush always makes his war speeches surrounded by the active duty troops, who would never, ever dare to show any disrespect or dissatisfaction with his sorry-assed leadership.
I say UURRRRRRAAAAH! to General Hoar! Too bad General “Kneepads” Myers doesn’t have a pair.
September 24th, 2005 at 8:36 amNation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy. Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.Nation building and nation destabilizing of Muslims is failed policy.
September 24th, 2005 at 9:19 amYou know what’s really weird? No Trolls. They haven’t even come in and tried to change the topic. Hmm…
September 24th, 2005 at 10:13 amDonald (Stuff Happens) Rumsfeld said the war would last no longer than five months. He said the insurgents were a few dead-enders from Saddam’s regime. This is from the man running the war effort. Bush is dumb enough but he has idiots like Rummy who compound the incompetence.
September 24th, 2005 at 10:28 amBefore we invaded Iraq, the american people should have known something was wrong when our long time allies would not go along with us. They knew that something was wrong and the humilation of France was so petty when if it were not for Frances help to George Washington, there might not have been a USA. And let’s not forget who gave us that nice big statue that sets in New York harbor. The statue of liberty was a gift from France. Bush’s propaganda machine is so much like the one that Hitler had.
September 24th, 2005 at 11:24 amFor some reason, Ben, the idea that our allies are stupid and we’re smart seemed plausible to a lot of people.
They were also going on about how “we” saved them in WWII, when “we” didn’t do it, other people who lived in this country at the time did. So their debt is to them, not us. We owe them as well. We owe them better than this trumped up war.
September 24th, 2005 at 11:30 amPerhaps, just perhaps, today will mark a change. Those of us old enough to remember ‘Nam know how long the process takes. Today is a moment, hopefully an important one
September 24th, 2005 at 11:32 amIf you want to see live blogging on the March please join us at
http://www.democracycellproject.net/
…booking the Gen. on the bill o’wrongly show now…
September 24th, 2005 at 11:34 amOK bill tell this man ‘all about the war’?
The Repuke Morons are destroying our country. The only thing more stupid than bush, is a bunch of monkeys that cheer it on. Reflect, bush arrives after stealing an election, then vacations and 9/11, then lies and starts murdering Iraqi’s (they weren’t responsible for 9/11), then bush destroys our economy (about 10 Trillion in the hole now, your grand kids will thank you), then bush vacations, and now God has had enough, and we get Katrina and Rita. The only winners in any of this are Big Oil and Halliburton. Gee you Repukes are the traitors, how much more do you want to destroy the US? As Cheney would say Go F**k yourselves.
September 24th, 2005 at 11:38 amI apologize for the trolls being so unresponsive to this story. They are busy building our swift-boat case against General Hoar. Stay tuned…
September 24th, 2005 at 11:51 amThis is a really sad commentary and an example of why the left is continually proving to be void of any philosophical significance in this country. Is there any wonder why the Dems lose election after election? Sadly, if you compare the current U.S. position to the red coats of the 1770s, you’re also equating heroic men like Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington with barbarians in Iraq who fight through terror and massacre. We are not in a battle of civilizations at the moment, we are, in fact in a battle FOR civilization. You should be ashamed.
September 24th, 2005 at 12:01 pmRyan should be ashamed of his simplistic interpretation of the General’s remarks. The General was not making an analogy between Ben Franklin an Al-Zarqawi, he was making an analogy between the futile counter-insurgency in colonial America and the futile counter-insurgency in modern day Iraq.
Your attempted decoy goes way beyond reading between the lines. It’s almost like me assuming that you are a pathetic chickenhawk based on your blind allegiance to the President and the War in Iraq.
September 24th, 2005 at 12:15 pmThet’s right, Ryan
Saving oil rich muslims at the expense of our National security and prosperity. That’s the way!!
September 24th, 2005 at 12:17 pmWell Ryan, if civilization is Shock and Awe and so much collateral damage that they refuse to count them up, then it is all yours and the crazies you support.
Our founding fathers had to use unconventional methods at that time to rid what became their country of what they considered an entity that should have no control over their destiny. If you can’t see that much, then there is little hope of any meaningful discourse with you.
It’s eye opening to see that the rise to power of the GOP coincides with 2 Republican connected companies counting 80% of our votes without oversight. People in this country KNOW somthing is not right, and that is why the wheels are coming off of this uncovered wagon that had promise, but now is in serious disrepair.
Iraqis will determine their own destiny just as have we, and as long as the same meddlers that are destroying our democracy remain involved it will have no chance for success. The reason is simple – to them success is failure. They have created an occupation dependency paradigm and most see that in spite of your hopes to tame Islam.
The shame is yours, and those you support.
September 24th, 2005 at 12:27 pmEXECUTE AMERICAN TERRORISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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“No cause, no movement, and no grievance can justify the intentional killing of innocent civilians and non-combatants. This is unacceptable by any moral standard.”
– TERRORIST Condoleezza Rice, United States Secretary of State, carrying out the policies of the international war criminal and TERRORIST George W. Bush and the American people, 9/17/2005
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-09-17-rice-un-speech_x.htm
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Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been killed in violence since the US-led invasion last year, according to public health experts who estimate there were 100,000 “excess deaths” in 18 months….
The US-based researchers found that the risk of death from violence in the period after the invasion was 58 times higher than before the war…
The rise in the death rate was mainly due to violence and much of it was caused by US air strikes on towns and cities, they said…
“Making conservative assumptions, we think that about 100,000 excess deaths or more have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq,” said Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in a report published online by The Lancet medical journal…
“The use of air power in areas with lots of CIVILIANS appears to be KILLING A LOT OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN,” Mr Roberts said…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200410/s1230305.htm
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“No cause, no movement, and no grievance can justify the intentional killing of innocent civilians and non-combatants. This is unacceptable by any moral standard.” — TERRORIST Condoleezza Rice, 9/17/2005
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BRITISH and American coalition forces are using depleted uranium (DU) shells in the war against Iraq and deliberately flouting a United Nations resolution which classifies the munitions as illegal weapons of mass destruction…
DU contaminates land, causes ill-health and cancers among the soldiers using the weapons, the armies they target AND CIVILIANS, leading to BIRTH DEFECTS IN CHILDREN…
Professor Doug Rokke, ex-director of the Pentagon’s depleted uranium project — a former professor of environmental science at Jacksonville University and onetime US army colonel who was tasked by the US department of defense with the post-first Gulf war depleted uranium desert clean-up — said use of DU was a ‘war crime’…
DU has been blamed for the effects of Gulf war syndrome — typified by chronic muscle and joint pain, fatigue and memory loss — among 200,000 US soldiers after the 1991 conflict…
A study of Gulf war veterans showed that 67% had CHILDREN with severe illnesses, MISSING EYES, blood infections, respiratory problems and fused fingers…
Rokke told the Sunday Herald: ‘A nation’s military personnel cannot wilfully contaminate any other nation, cause harm to persons and the environment and then ignore the consequences of their actions.’
‘To do so is A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY….’
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0330-02.htm
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“No cause, no movement, and no grievance can justify the intentional killing of innocent civilians and non-combatants. This is unacceptable by any moral standard.” — TERRORIST Condoleezza Rice, 9/17/2005
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I want to give testimony on what are called the “highways of death.” These are the two Kuwaiti roadways, littered with remains of 2,000 mangled Iraqi military vehicles, and the charred and dismembered bodies of tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers, who were withdrawing from Kuwait on February 26th and 27th 1991 IN COMPLIANCE WITH UN RESOLUTIONS…
U.S. planes trapped the long convoys by disabling vehicles in the front, and at the rear, and then pounded the resulting traffic jams for hours. “It was like shooting fish in a barrel,” said one U.S. pilot. The horror is still there to see…
“Even in Vietnam I didn’t see anything like this. It’s pathetic,” said Major Bob Nugent, an Army intelligence officer. This one-sided carnage, this RACIST MASS MURDER OF ARAB PEOPLE, occurred while White House spokesman Marlin Fitzwater promised that the U.S. and its coalition partners would not attack Iraqi forces leaving Kuwait. This is surely one of the most heinous war crimes in contemporary history…
http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-death.htm
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“No cause, no movement, and no grievance can justify the intentional killing of innocent civilians and non-combatants. This is unacceptable by any moral standard.” — TERRORIST Condoleezza Rice, 9/17/2005
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The My Lai massacre was a massacre by American soldiers of hundreds of UNARMED VIETNAMESE CIVILIANS, MOSTLY WOMEN AND CHILDREN, on March 16, 1968, during the Vietnam War. Becoming a symbol of US-AMERICAN WAR CRIMES in Vietnam, it prompted widespread outrage around the world and reduced public support for the war in the United States…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre
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“No cause, no movement, and no grievance can justify the intentional killing of innocent civilians and non-combatants. This is unacceptable by any moral standard.” — TERRORIST Condoleezza Rice, 9/17/2005
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During World War II, for the official purpose of forcing the Japanese to surrender unconditionally, the United States military dropped atomic bombs on the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan on August 6 and August 9, 1945 respectively, KILLING AT LEAST 120,000 PEOPLE, ABOUT 95 PERCENT OF WHICH WERE CIVILIAN, outright, and AROUND TWICE AS MANY OVER TIME. These were the first and only nuclear attacks in history…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
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“No cause, no movement, and no grievance can justify the intentional killing of innocent civilians and non-combatants. This is unacceptable by any moral standard.” — TERRORIST Condoleezza Rice, 9/17/2005
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The bombing of Dresden by the British Royal Air Force (RAF) and the United States Army Air Force (USAAF) between February 13 and February 15, 1945 remains one of the most controversial events of World War II, even after 60 years…
Overall, Anglo-American bombing of German cities CLAIMED AROUND 400,000 CIVILIAN LIVES…
Critics of the attack come from across the political spectrum, from far left to far right. Günter Grass, the German novelist and Nobel laureate for literature, and Simon Jenkins, the former editor of The Times, have both referred to THE DRESDEN BOMBING AS A “WAR CRIME”…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II
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“No cause, no movement, and no grievance can justify the intentional killing of innocent civilians and non-combatants. This is unacceptable by any moral standard.”
– TERRORIST Condoleezza Rice, United States Secretary of State, carrying out the policies of the international war criminal and TERRORIST George W. Bush and the American people, 9/17/2005
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-09-17-rice-un-speech_x.htm
September 24th, 2005 at 12:33 pm——————————————————————
“Sadly, if you compare the current U.S. position to the red coats of the 1770s, you’re also equating heroic men like Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington with barbarians in Iraq who fight through terror and massacre.”
You are right. But I am not making a comparison. I stating facts. It doesn’t mean that the insurgents are heroes. But the facts remain the same.
Shame on George Bush for empowering the insurgency. Saddam had those maniacs under his thumb and Bush took Saddam’s thumb away.
September 24th, 2005 at 12:48 pmI wrote a letter to the president. He will probably never read it, but maybe someone in the mailroom will spread the word.
DEAR MR. PRESIDENT:
I HATE TO TELL YOU THIS, BUT THERE IS A CANCER GROWING IN YOUR PRESIDENCY. I KNOW THE WAY TO EXCISE THAT CANCER, AND THE FOLLOWING MUST BE DONE WITH ALL HASTE:
1. You must fire Rove, McClellan, Rumsfeld, Myers and all the other warlords.
2. You must ask for the resignation of your entire cabinet at once.
3. You must ask Tom Delay, Dennis Hastert and Bill Frist to show their loyalty to you and the United States of America by stepping aside and letting their Democrat counterparts take over immediatly.
4. You must forestall the appointment of the highly experienced Judge Roberts to the Supreme Court.
5. You and Vice President Cheney must go in front of the cameras on national television and tell the people of this country that you have discovered a cancer within the presidency and so therefore, you and Cheney are announcing your immediate resignation from the highest offices of the land.
Sorry sir, but this is the only way to rid this country of the malignancy growing within.
Paul E. Smith
September 24th, 2005 at 12:50 pmGuadalajara, Mexico
This is what it is going to take. Bush must lose the support of the military.
He treats them very poorly, so it is inevitable for them to get fed up with his hubris, which of course comes at their expense.
September 24th, 2005 at 12:55 pmRyan (#28), perhaps you could enlighten me. How, in any logical thinking process, is the war in Iraq a “battle for civilization” as you put it? You are like the rest of the righwing dumbasses who so easily equate the war in Afganistan and against Al Queda, as the same as the war in Iraq.
We went into both wars for different reasons: one to kill or capture bin Laden and destroy his organzation; the other an unneccessary war to topple Saddam Hussain to (1) get rid of a dictator (2) spread freedom (3) establish a democracy or (4)____________ (fill in next administration excuse here). While Bushco has managed to blend the two together because sheeple like you can be misled AFTER the fact, many of us are not so gullible. Two wars—two failures. Don’t blame the left because Junior left Rummy/Cheney in charge while he went off to cut brush on his hobby-ranch and they made a mess out of both.
September 24th, 2005 at 1:08 pm#20 – Andrew, the troll has arrived at #28, and he has attempted to change the subject. You’re so good.
September 24th, 2005 at 1:54 pmWhat troll Ryan fails to realize is that history is written by the winners. If the founding fathers had lost and ‘hung together’ they would have gone down in history as failed pinko treasonous revolutionaries.
September 24th, 2005 at 2:36 pmRyan is just another gullible victim of the reichwingers. He doesn’t have the brain capacity to separate ambiguities and facts from the smears and propaganda the reichwingers feed him daily. For instance, he probably doesn’t have any way to reconcile the fact that the republicans who say they are bringing civilization to Iraq, were the SAME PEOPLE who brought sadam to power, sold him WMDs, who sold Plutonium reactors to Iran, and who recruited, funded and trained AlQueda to fight the russians in Afghanistan thereby creating yet another threat to the country. There wouldn’t be a need to ‘bring civilization’ to these places, if republicans didn’t create dictators and terrorists there in the first place with their inept policies…
September 24th, 2005 at 7:30 pmYou’re all very knowledgeable about national security and foreign affairs. Would somebody please tell me exactly how you propose we deal with barbarians who seek to undermine our country and our way of life? You do a fantastic job of conjuring up right-wing conspiracies, but I’m not hearing any solutions. Should we just let them be and wait for them to attack again? Please enlighten my poor, uninformed self?
September 24th, 2005 at 7:59 pmRyan,
I can actually answer that question if you really want an answer and will listen. Will you PROMISE to actually listen with an open mind and not be a stupid moron like so many reichwingers are? Because there is a strategy, and it WILL work…
September 24th, 2005 at 8:03 pm1) FORCE the partitioning of Israel. This is a thorn in the side of the world, and the extreme zionists (the ones who think they have a right to keep all of the land and shove the palestinians in the ocean) are undermining the stability of the entire middle east.
2) Stop propping up dictators for oil.
3) Stop funding and weaponizing 3rd world countries.
4) Stop creating terrorist organizations to fight bogeymen – they only harm us in the end (AlQueda).
5) Actually GET OFF OIL – the technology is already available, but the oil companies have a grip on politicians nuts and won’t let go.
6) Start using the UN as a legitimate body. Just like states use the federal government, the UN is our only internation organization. If we don’t accept the need for some international government, it only undermines our safety, not increases it.
7) Stop forcing 3rd world countries to lay themselves bare to our corporate interests.
Basically our fear, greed and stupidity (eg. republican values) prevent us from making wise and correct decisions. These are not difficult decisions from a technology standpoint – however they are from a zealot political standpoint that reichwingers always approach the world from…
Do those things, and much of the world’s problems would take care of themselves…
September 24th, 2005 at 8:10 pmTo a degree I actually agree with points 2, 3 and 5. But the people who are blowing up buildings, buses and trains have a much broader agenda than you’re seeing. They have been taught that the U.S. is the Great Satan and will stop at nothing to harm us and destroy our civilization. How do you propose we stop them?
September 24th, 2005 at 8:20 pmWe went in undermanned, under armed and under armored. Then Bremmer disenfranchised the Sunnis. That’s when the war was lost, 20% of Iraqis were shoved aside and decided to take action. Next step, agitate the Shiites. Now another 40% enter the insurgent’s nest. Now the Kurds are feeling edgy, do they really want to form a coalition with these Islamic factions who want to eliminate their brothers? Add a year and Al Qaeda enters the mix. By this time “Mission Accomplished†has turned into absolute chaos. The military is not at fault; their civilian leaders have failed them.
September 24th, 2005 at 8:33 pmThis is the most inept administration in the history of our nation. How they were reelected escapes me. I believe that the books were cooked, but, without a paper trail, we will never know
“To a degree I actually agree with points 2, 3 and 5.”
Ok, well we know you’re not a complete reichwinger at least.
” But the people who are blowing up buildings, buses and trains have a much broader agenda than you’re seeing. They have been taught that the U.S. is the Great Satan and will stop at nothing to harm us and destroy our civilization. How do you propose we stop them?”
Unfortunately if you don’t do the other items on the list, then you’ll lose the ‘rational’ people who you need to stop them from their own countries and their own groups. You can’t reason with terrorists, but there’s a good chance you can reason with the societies that have the resources and people to stop them. By radicalizing entire societies through injustices to the palestinians and the arab poor who are under the boot of american supported dictators – this supports and enables the most radical of elements to thrive.
The problem is that we haven’t convinced the arab world that we want to play fairly, and frankly it’s because we don’t. Until we are even handed, and stop medling and interfering unequally, the terrorists will always have fresh faces and societies that will enable it.
If you want to look at a society where this has played out, look at ireland. By policies that engage the fairness and opportunities of the people, the radical elements have been largely silenced. That war has been waging for 800+ years and everyone said exactly the same thing about the IRA they now say about islamic terrorists – and yet the IRA has proved this mythology is invalid and is more propaganda than fact…
September 24th, 2005 at 8:34 pmRepublicans both created and flamed AlQueda. They are the product of failed fascist policies, and they are unsuited to cleaning up the mess. Their tactics only increase the power and influence of AlQueda, and they are incapable of making the responsible decisions needed to stop them!
September 24th, 2005 at 8:35 pmI believe we can say, with relative certainty, that General Hoar is not a part of “the left”. So, Ryan, if you want to say, “you should be ashamed,” direct your comments to General Hoar, and not “the left”, as you have in this case. However, in a trait pretty much exemplified by the right these days, you pick the EASY target rather than the CORRECT one.
It seems to me that it’s increasingly “the right” that are “proving to be void of any philosophical significance in this country”, especially when that sentiment (aka ‘democrats have run out of ideas’) is seemingly the only response they’ve had to just about any criticism pointed their way since things started to go south for them. Couldn’t have imagined shrub was actually going to become a LIABILITY, could ya? Some of us saw that coming 6 years ago…
You are correct on one point, however- we are in a battle for civilization: OURS, here in America. The battle isn’t in Iraq, it’s here at home. Tell me, Ryan, what does it mean to be a republican anymore? Do you have an answer for that? Is it smaller government (Bush sounding alot like LBJ these days)? Conservatism (Bush took 3 yrs to outspend Clinton’s 8!)? Balanced budgets (see Delay’s recent comments – “we’ve cut just about all we can”)? An end to pork and irresponsible spending (recent highway and energy bills)? Lack of intrusion into Americans’ personal lives (patriot act, FCC)?
Where in the hell are those ideas you keep talking about? About the only thing republicans have been consistent on in the last 30 years is abortion and gay marriage. Well the problem with those issues is that they have nothing to do with the economy, national security, quality of education, immigration, energy policy, et al. In short, they’re RED HERRINGS. Emphasis on RED.
You know what happens if you overturn roe v. wade and get a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage? You’re out of issues…
You see, I’m not a lefty, I’m an independent from a family that consistently voted (r), because (r)’s used to really be (r)’s. That doesn’t happen anymore. The (r)’s lost us. I gave them up long ago, when it became obvious they weren’t actually conservative at all, and frankly I’d rather hang out with an ignorant tree-hugging hippie than an ignorant race-baiting hater [the extremes, left vs. right] any day of the week. My father gave up when they sold their soul to the gay-bashing, we’re-rich-because-god-loves-us / you’re-poor-because-god-doesn’t christian right. At least with the democrats you have an idea of what you’re getting (not a very well articulated idea anymore, I’ll grant you that). I didn’t care for Clinton much, and I never voted for him, but man I’d take bubba over shrubba in a heartbeat. I can’t believe I’m saying this, but given the current toxic environment in America right now, I wish we could have him back.
Of course now you’re going to accuse me of returning to “a pre-9/11 mindset”. It seems to me the republicans are pursuing a “pre-renaissance mindset”. Dominion of the lord, anybody? Have you prepared your fiefdom?
September 24th, 2005 at 8:37 pmRyan,
If you don’t believe Israel should be partitioned, do you believe that it’s because it’s ‘their land’? If so, why don’t you believe native american lands should all be returned – and have you fought for that? And if not, why the exemption? After all, the jews document in the old testament that they stole their land from the phoenecians. Abraham was from the iraqi city of Ur.
See the problem is that when we get into the historic land ownership, there’s usually competing claims that are often as valuable and as real. Also, if we get into the war spoils game, then does that mean you would accept the Saudi’s taking and keeping israel if they could militarily?
The reality is the world is complex, and often compromise and mediation is necessary. Sometimes a body like the UN must step in and force a division of property in these disputes that is as fair as possible. The ‘I’m always right’, that occurs from the zealots of both sides only destroys the peace for everyone and causes unnecessary bloodshed. The way to solve the problem is to recognize the LEGITIMATE grievance of the other side, and to try to do what you’d want done if you were in their shoes. That doesn’t happen in either israeli or palestinian leadership from what I’ve seen – and they are both equally at fault at this point. That’s why I believe they must be FORCED into a compromise, and since we weaponized and made the situation what it is, we must take partial responsibility for fixing it. The old adage of you broke it, you bought it, unfortunately applies to israel…
September 24th, 2005 at 8:41 pmPR,
brilliant post!
September 24th, 2005 at 8:42 pmMarine Corps General Hoar has a BRAIN…Emperior Dumbya, and the “Brillant Planners” of this crazy war, think they have brains, but they didn’t have a clue, and STILL don’t! I call Bush “Emperior Dumbya” because EVERYTHING he does is DUMB, and being DUMB is dangerous! They (Bush and his gang of morans) get a grip of ONE idea, and can’t or won’t let go! Part of that problem (at least as far as Iraq is concerned) is the Cyborg,the DICK Cheney, can’t, or won’t, get his greedy fat fingers off the “oil spigot” in that “liberated” country. What’s it gonna take?, the “jaws of life” to pry each and every finger off of the faucet? When you can get this ASSHOLE to FINALLY listen to reason, maybe, just maybe ,there will be some hope of getting out of this mess. Hey DICK, share the wealth, maybe we’ll get some help clearing out of there!
Instead of George Washington, Emperior Dumbya will be said to “be DUMB in war, DUMB in (finding the)peace, DUMB in the hearts (of many) of this countrymen! Here’s a new anti-war slogan…”No Brains, No Peace” this guy, Dumbya, is running about “three quarts low” and getting worse, we need sombody better….
Gene Campbell,
September 24th, 2005 at 9:46 pmCentral Florida
Progressaurus Rex, very compelling post. I believe people on both sides are very sick of ‘left & right’, the extremes of both sides hurt everyone. We’re been told for too long that we’re Supreme, we’re the best, no one is our equal. Our arrogance, and ideas of superiority have brought us to where we are now. And it’s not a very nice picture. We talk out of both sides of our mouth. We’re Freedom Fighters of the World, yet we’re the first to take our own people’s freedom away, if we decide they’re not deserving., hence, parts of the Patriot Act. We’re the Savior of the poor, the starving, the persecuted, yet we turn a blind eye to the Sudans, the Ethiopias, we make our poor poorer, we pick and choose our starving, and we have no tolerance for gays, minorities or anyone who doesn’t fit our concepts of ideal. How much we sound like Hitler…our concepts of purity. It’s our audacity and our own ignorance which has allowed us to become a country that is hated. I love my country, hate my government and am ashamed of what we’re allowed ourselves to become. In the 60’s we ‘had a Dream”, what went wrong?
September 25th, 2005 at 10:53 amVery Good Nancy, I agree and thank you for the post…Blessings
September 25th, 2005 at 11:07 amGeneral Hoar: Wrong War at the Wrong Time…
a stunning indictment of an Administration that is incompetently managing a war that should never have been fought
…
September 25th, 2005 at 1:07 pm“I believe people on both sides are very sick of ‘left & right’, the extremes of both sides hurt everyone.”
This is a myth, america no longer has an extreme left to speak of. The NeoCon fascists rule republicans, whereas a far left ‘communist’ wing doesn’t even exist in republicans. The democrats are center right at this point, and there is no respectable left to speak of other than perhaps the green party. And the green party isn’t even extreme by european standards. You’ve been watching WAY too much faux news – go to europe and politics with people on the left who are literate and tell me if you still think american ‘liberals’ are radical. Because frankly that’s as much of a myth as a ‘liberal’ press…
September 25th, 2005 at 6:51 pmThe british are getting ready to withdraw from Iraq in May!
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/092505A.shtml
My guess is that the fascists here will at least pretend they’re withdrawing leading up to the 2006 elections. When 2/3 of americans say you’re a stupid dope in how you’re running the war, clearly you’re in trouble. His approval rating of people who fully agree with Bush’s handling in Iraq is I think 22 percent now with the last poll. That’s embarrassing low!
September 25th, 2005 at 11:34 pmThanks General for speaking out.
September 25th, 2005 at 11:42 pmThis needs to be repeated over and over again, and louder. This is the reality. Ryan is always correct, he is never too far right.
“I believe people on both sides are very sick of ‘left & right’, the extremes of both sides hurt everyone.â€
This is a myth, america no longer has an extreme left to speak of. The NeoCon fascists rule republicans, whereas a far left ‘communist’ wing doesn’t even exist in republicans. The democrats are center right at this point, and there is no respectable left to speak of other than perhaps the green party. And the green party isn’t even extreme by european standards. You’ve been watching WAY too much faux news – go to europe and politics with people on the left who are literate and tell me if you still think american ‘liberals’ are radical. Because frankly that’s as much of a myth as a ‘liberal’ press…
Comment by Ryan Neat — September 25, 2005 @ 6:51 pm
September 26th, 2005 at 3:40 amStuff You Should Read
Next up: Fox News declares former Head of US Central Command General Joseph Hoar an “anti-American traitor.”
September 26th, 2005 at 11:21 amI have never claimed to be a Republican. I am a libertarian-conservative, and I DO NOT consider G.W. Bush to be in-line with my beliefs. Bush is not a true fiscal conservative and there is way too much room for government in his social policies. But I’m not going to debate why I voted for him, because that’s not what this is about. This is about Iraq and terrorism. My initial point was that it is improper to equate barbarian terrorists with American revolutionary heros. That is disgusting.
Also, whether or not you think all Republicans are Nazis/fascists, or that we shouldn’t have fought in Iraq in the first place, like it or not, we are there. If we leave now Iraq will fall into worse hands than before we got there. We cannot concede to barbarians! We cannot send the message that if you cut off enough innocent civilian’s heads and broadcast them on TV that we will run home with our tail between our legs. Rebuilding Iraq is going to be difficult and will take years…it’s not going to turn into Nebraska overnight folks. I DO NOT necessarily agree that Iraq was the the best choice for a front in the war on terror, but we are there and we can’t go home until the job is finished.
Another thing, calling all Republicans Nazis and fascists is childish (are all Dems communists?). It is not true, it is counterproductive and you would be a lot more confincing if you didn’t use such immature comparisons. Trying to sway someone to your way of thinking by calling them a Nazi is probably the least effective form of persuasion. I’m more than willing to have a civil debate, but I will not be called a Nazi.
September 26th, 2005 at 12:00 pmThe only hope for this country, now,is prayer.Pray to a merciful God to deliver us from this corrupt and degenerate corporation who have taken over our government.
September 26th, 2005 at 12:43 pm“I am a libertarian-conservative, and I DO NOT consider G.W. Bush to be in-line with my beliefs. ”
Libertarian is just another way to say I’m not responsible for the gifts I receive from society. The only libertarian societies are all banana republics, and frightful places. You should really rethink your philosophy, it’s nothing more then selfishness with no recognition of the responsiblity you owe to society!
September 26th, 2005 at 2:01 pmTerry correctly notes that history is written by the winners – until the John Dewey indoctrinated left got ahold of textbook printing approx 50 years ago. LIBERALKKKSAYER, please post early and often – you will be a great boon to re-electing Repubs. Do not forget your meds.
September 26th, 2005 at 4:52 pmDo you know if General Hoar (unfortunate name!) has politiacal ambitions – like the wildly successful campaign by General “NATO” Wesley Clark?? Can’t you see the bumperstickers now? Hillary and HOAR?
September 26th, 2005 at 4:56 pm“I am a libertarian-conservative, and I DO NOT consider G.W. Bush to be in-line with my beliefs. â€
Libertarian is just another way to say I’m not responsible for the gifts I receive from society. The only libertarian societies are all banana republics, and frightful places. You should really rethink your philosophy, it’s nothing more then selfishness with no recognition of the responsiblity you owe to society!
Aphrodite is just another way to say godess of partisan hack who speaks out of her ass…
September 27th, 2005 at 2:03 amMr. Neat, you are quite the debater!
September 27th, 2005 at 9:23 am“Ryan is just another gullible victim of the reichwingers. He doesn’t have the brain capacity to separate ambiguities and facts from the smears and propaganda the reichwingers feed him daily.”
Obviously Mr. Neat is the one lacking in brain capacity. His only real debate strategy is to call anyone who dare question the “truth” he spews names. So far he’s called me a “partisan hack”, a “reichwinger (Nazi)”, “a gullible victim”, and “selfish.” Again, if this is how the left wants to portray itself, so be it, and enjoy insignificance.
September 27th, 2005 at 9:37 am“So far he’s called me a “partisan hackâ€, a “reichwinger (Nazi)â€, “a gullible victimâ€, and “selfish.†Again, if this is how the left wants to portray itself, so be it, and enjoy insignificance.”
You forgot weak kneed moron – that one seems most apt… How ironic the man who ‘lectures’ on name calling, refers to others as self inflicted victims. Irony, they name is idiot republican!
And I repeat…
Libertarian is just another way to say I’m not responsible for the gifts I receive from society. The only libertarian societies are all banana republics, and frightful places. You should really rethink your philosophy, it’s nothing more then selfishness with no recognition of the responsiblity you owe to society!
Aphrodite is just another way to say godess of partisan hack who speaks out of her ass…
September 28th, 2005 at 12:37 amRyan,
When you stop ACTING like an idiot, I’ll stop calling you one. Until then, it’s nothing more than an accurate adjective. You know what an adjective is don’t you? You’ve been so inept at everything you posted, I’m not sure you ever got to grammar in your homeschooling…
September 28th, 2005 at 12:39 amI thought that the insurgents were in their “last throes”.
This is a war for profit…. Carlyle Group is making a literal killing!
As long as there is conflict, there is profit!
Dumbya is in favor of a 95% world population decrease. I believe that he and his handlers will get the job done.
However, it looks like his ship is sinking, and I don’t think that he will have the balls to resign like Nixon, I believe that it will look like the warden scene in Shawshank Redemption…knock knock… bang!
October 1st, 2005 at 4:23 amOk, let us look at the facts:
Osamma- recruited by the USA-Cia and armed, trained by same.
Sadam- recruied by the USA-CIA and installed in iraq as leader.
Bin Laden-Bush families- owners of the carlyle group.
Saudi royal family – bush family owners of Citifinancial…. CHARGE IT! 3% of your purchases go to our terriorists.
Head of the CIA during the Sadam/BinLaden recruitment: George The Smarter….
DUH!
Go ahead and charge the groceries, you are FUNDING TERRIORISTS!
Don’t secure the ports… (everything you buy now says made in china) and their major #1 export is NOT goods, it is opiates!
The patriot act relieves you of your rights and freedoms, it DOES NOT MAKE YOU MORE SECURE!
Heil Bush!
October 1st, 2005 at 4:30 am[...] While Terry’s fur settles a little, let’s think for just a moment about the context. Today, we learned, in addition to the Lynndie conviction, about yet another prominent American military leader who’s had enough of the lies and incompetence of this Bush administration; we also read about the arrest of Cindy Sheehan, and about further questions concerning Bill Frist’s financial games and his possible suppression of information about torture. Meanwhile, 9-Iron Flash is parading around the South, saying that disaster response should be an exclusively military matter, while back in Washington, Brownie keeps collecting paychecks. [...]
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December 1st, 2005 at 4:59 am