Think Progress

Bush Misleads on Progress in Iraq

By Nico Pitney on Sep 30th, 2005 at 8:46 am

Bush Misleads on Progress in Iraq

President Bush, 9/28/05:

At this moment, more than a dozen Iraqi battalions have completed training and are conducting anti-terrorist operations in Ramadi and Fallujah. More than 20 battalions are operating in Baghdad. And some have taken the lead in operations in major sectors of the city. In total, more than 100 battalions are operating throughout Iraq. Our commanders report that the Iraqi forces are operating with increasing effectiveness.

Associated Press, 9/29/05:

The number of Iraqi battalions capable of combat without U.S. support has dropped from three to one, the top American commander in Iraq told Congress Thursday.

Comments
117

117 Responses to “Bush Misleads on Progress in Iraq”

Alexander Wolfe says:

Ah see, if you interpret his comments as spin, you’ll realize that “operates” means “exists” and “increasing effectiveness” means “continuing to exist without being wiped out by insurgents.”
September 30th, 2005 at 8:51 am
thot's says:

When is the Impeachment Party?
September 30th, 2005 at 9:01 am
yankeluh says:

You mean, our President LIED to us?
September 30th, 2005 at 9:06 am
Edward R Cole says:

I really am at a loss at this point as to what sources of knowledge are legetimate or illigitemate. The embedded reporting in Iraq is so skewed by the military’s intentional attempt to only give reporters images and impressions of the events that the military considers to be its accomplishments that I do not even bother with cabel news anymore.
I suppose the only source of journalism that is credible are the blogs that are operated and written in by actual Iraqis. However, I do not know how to access such blogs, and I am not certain they would be in English. If anyone has any advice on this matter, I am all eyes. Just email me or leave a comment at my blogsite and I will be greatly appreciative

Russell Cole
September 30th, 2005 at 9:11 am
Ron says:

They need Iraqi battalions (Oh my God, it’s an Old French word, He shouldn’t be using words derived from the French language) because US soldiers are too busy photographing themselves doing their pornography thang at Abu Ghraib. Somebody has to go out and do the fighting that the stupid Americans started.
September 30th, 2005 at 9:16 am
mxp says:

you see, the cowboy says that 100 battalions is ready. that just on what the meaning of is is.

how many days since we’ve ‘found’ osama?
September 30th, 2005 at 9:18 am
Keith H. says:

It’s interesting how he can just spit lies and no one calls him on it.
At least his butt-hole buddy DeLay is sh*tin’ peach seeds.
Next up for indictment, junior!!
September 30th, 2005 at 9:20 am
A Marine in Baghdad says:

This is very misleading. There ARE over one hundred Iraqi battalions currently conducting counter-terrorist operations in Iraq and they ARE consistently improving and some DO have complete control over operational areas. They are also backed up by Americans in support roles (such as logistics, communications, and intelligence). Only one is currently capable of conducting operations with absolutely no help in those additional areas, and the problems the others are experiencing are a result of Iraqi Ministry problems and not American neglect. BOTH statements are correct taken in context.
September 30th, 2005 at 9:29 am
Patriot says:

What is misleading? Bush or ThinkProgress, Marine?
September 30th, 2005 at 9:32 am
Andrew says:

I think their spin on it is this:

a lot more iraqi troops have been upgraded to ineffective from worthless than have been downgraded from effective to “riddled with insurgents”

but you have to really hold your nose while you wade through it ‘cuz it’s major BS.

“Military figures show that there are about three dozen army and special police battalions rated at Level 2 or above, meaning they are taking the lead in combat as long as they have support from coalition forces.”

“Officials did not say specifically why two battalions are no longer rated at Level 1 and thus unable to operate on their own. They said generally readiness ratings can change for numerous reasons, such as if a commander resigns, or if more training is needed. Casey also said that the “Iraqi armed forces will not have an independent capability for some time.”"

And who could forget this old chestnut:

Myers replied: “I don’t think this committee or the American public has ever heard me say that things are going very well in Iraq. This is a hard struggle.”

Man! That never gets old! Nobody predicted the levees would burst… The war will last 5 months… These tax cuts will create jobs… You’re doing a heckuvajob!

Nah, nobody in this administration ever says anything like that…
September 30th, 2005 at 9:33 am
Andrew says:

#9 then why do they give the figure at 86? Why would bush say 100 if it’s only 86? Do they even know how many troops they have there?
September 30th, 2005 at 9:35 am
Andrew says:

sorry, meant #8 not #9. haven’t had any coffee yet today…
September 30th, 2005 at 9:36 am
Marie says:

The American public should know by now that nothing Bush says can be taken as fact or truth. When he speaks from a sript, it is all pre-digested for him. When he speaks off the cuff, he hasn’t a clue.
September 30th, 2005 at 9:43 am
A Marine in Baghdad says:

Let me ask how many of you have fought with the Iraqi army. I HAVE. I have been in combat with them and relied on them to cover me, to fire at the enemy, and to move into hostile buildings. Their performance was incredible and they acted with great bravery. Think progress is misleading. Regardless of how I feel personally about Bush, this particular statement is NOT a lie.
September 30th, 2005 at 9:48 am
A Marine in Baghdad says:

Better yet, let me ask you who you think should rule Iraq in our absence–Al Sadr or Zarqawi? Are you all suggesting that the alternative to standing up an Iraqi Army is leaving or sending in more American troops to do the job right? Because IF we leave, one of those two, or perhaps someone worse will come to power. So pick one you prefer.
September 30th, 2005 at 9:55 am
Patriot says:

A Marine in Baghdad,

I’m not going to play fake “support the troops” garbage with you. You’re brave? You’re fellow soldiers are brave? That’s terrific.
There is a policy of deception with this administration. That is the spirit of this thread and this blog. I think you need to decide what the hell point you’re trying to make and how it relates to this specific thread. All I hear from you is “soldiers are good”.
September 30th, 2005 at 9:55 am
Southwest Bob says:

Remember, this president creates his own reality. Besides, he doesn’t read the papers and most likely planning for his next vaction caused him to miss that particular briefing. Think of it in the same context as “Iraq has WMD and links to numerous terrorists groups.”

Remember, this guy has never been accountable for anything in his life and never admits to screwing up. As a lame duck prez, he’s not going to suddenly become honest and accountable. Hell, it’s just going to get worse. He’s clearly out touch with reality and probably said to his staff, “Give me a report that backs my decision.” So they pulled a pre-invasion report and gave it to him.
September 30th, 2005 at 9:57 am
Andrew says:

I don’t doubt that the troops you’ve served with are qualified. The problem is, there should be more of them that are that qualified. Another problem, we can’t even get a straight answer on how many of them are really there.
September 30th, 2005 at 9:57 am
Patriot says:

I think Al-Sadr should rule Iraq. I think we should by oil from him. It would be cheaper than Saudi oil.
And when he turns on america? Nuke him. Let the terrorists have a home.
Nationbuilding is failed policy of death.
September 30th, 2005 at 9:58 am
KillCon Now! says:

Myers is stepping down.
September 30th, 2005 at 9:59 am
Patriot says:

That little speech of his was posturing for the release of the videos from Abu Ghraib.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:00 am
Rotwang says:

As you know, for George Bush a “battalion” is somewhere between a “billion” and a “brazilian.”
September 30th, 2005 at 10:02 am
A Marine in Baghdad says:

Really Patriot? That’s the epitome of progressive thinking. Nuke them. I am glad I found this blog. All this time I was trying to protect innocent Iraqis from murderers and thugs who rape, kill, and torture for fun. All that wasted emotion when that suicide bomber killed a group of school children getting candy from Americans. If only I had known that none of their lives had value. Then I would be free to sit at home in America and talk about decisions I’ll never get to make because I am frustrated political wannabe.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:02 am
A Marine in Baghdad says:

My point is this–Bush in this particular instance is NOT lying, and you, in your haste to crucify him are ignoring the truth. My point is also this–this particular thread is misleading and until you are on the ground and inspecting the situation for yourself, any statements made are pure speculation.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:07 am
Patriot says:

Nationbuilding Muslims is failed policy. So is destabilization.
You’re in an endless cycle of retaliation. You guys don’t have time or manpower to do your job (whatever that is).
September 30th, 2005 at 10:07 am
A Marine in Baghdad says:

So somehow Muslims are inferior? Incapable of self-rule or civilization? I didn’t know racism was a progressive value.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:10 am
Patriot says:

Here’s the bad news, Marine. People don’t care anymore how many battalions there are. We’ve got hurricanes and avian flu to worry about. In the meantime, innocent soldiers and civilians are going to die in Iraq, forgotten.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:11 am
Patriot says:

You’re not a “Marine in Baghdad”.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:11 am
A Marine in Baghdad says:

I hate to disappoint you, but I am definitely a Marine in Baghdad. I happen to be an intelligence officer on Camp Victory, right outside Baghdad International. Does that bother you?
September 30th, 2005 at 10:14 am
Patriot says:

Muslims need to earn democracy. Their brains are 700 years less mature than the, let’s say, average WASP.
They don’t even want democracy. They want a theocracy. You’re a joke, “Marine”.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:15 am
Patriot says:

If you are a Marine, I am truly grateful to you. I am an old man. I have never served. When I was younger I was afraid of being drafted into the first Iraq war.
I was a silly coward then.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:17 am
A Marine in Baghdad says:

I am a joke? Since when did anyone need to earn democracy? I thought it was an “unalienable right” endowed to all mankind by their creator. Any “patriot” ought to know that.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:19 am
Punchy says:

i think he means that Muslim culture does not easily a democracy make. Nobody said anything about “being inferior” or “incapable of rule”. How many democratic gov’ts are there in the Middle East? Why is that? Is it bad that they are not? I think not.

As for the deception of this administration, i have three letters for you: WMD.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:20 am
Patriot says:

Democracy is a skill. Nationbuilding is failed policy. Rumsfeld knows that. Yet he keeps feeding you to the meat grinder. You’re a fool.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:21 am
A Marine in Baghdad says:

How is nationbuilding a failed policy? Was our own nation not born of war? Were there not missteps (aka the Articles of Confederation or the Civil War)? Oh wait,that sounds too much like Bush saying that an Iraqi constitution is one step on the road to progress and we need to have patience. The United States has not always been as prosperous or secure as it is today. No country has. So should we scrap the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and call it quits? Consent to live in anarchy?
September 30th, 2005 at 10:28 am
Punchy says:

#35…our country was founded with people who by and large all had the same beliefs, religion, and goal. You’re trying to force together 3 groups who share none of the above at all. The Kurds would probably prefer their own country, Shites would rather be with Iran, and Sunnis want their old Iraq back. In other words, you’re trying to make a cohesive country from parts that only want to seperate. Many of us even doubt that can be done. That wasn’t the case in America. I think you’re grossly underestimating this reality in Iraq…
September 30th, 2005 at 10:32 am
Ron says:

True enough. Iraq is old news and not worth the time to consider what goes on there anymore. The US military is stuck there, and I doubt that we’ll ever get out. Enjoy the rest of your life in Iraq, marine in Baghdad. You’re probably not going to get out. The majority of the American people have resigned themselves to the fact that the US gov is hopelessly corrupt. You’re there for the coporate interests. Democracy is hardly their goal. You’ve been suckered.

America is mired with a southern coastline destroyed by hurricanes and an economy on the ropes.

Good luck, you’re on your own. I have too many problems of my own to be concerned about Iraqis having a viable government. The US government is no longer able to govern its own. That is the way things are.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:33 am
A Marine in Baghdad says:

That and any other debate still doesn’t answer the question–What is the alternative? What IS the alternative? Pull out now? Allow civil war? Destabilze the world economy? Allow Al Qaeda to declare victory and set up shop in Iraq, just like Afghanistan? Let them “develop” for the next 700 years, and in the meantime allow them to keep killing Americans (because they’re not going to stop in Iraq)?
September 30th, 2005 at 10:33 am
Patriot says:

Since when does an intelligence officer have time to wax philosphic about history?
Did they offer a basic logic course in your education? You’re going to compare our civil war, which entropy resolved, to an occupation-fueled civil war amongst tribes? You lack a real sense of awareness of cause and effect, Marine.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:35 am
Gary Kleppe says:

Better yet, let me ask you who you think should rule Iraq in our absenceâ€“Al Sadr or Zarqawi?

Iraq should be governed by whomever the Iraqis choose. Period. If that choice is not favorable to American interests, too bad. Our interests are not a consideration. It isn’t our country. It’s theirs.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:36 am
A Marine in Baghdad says:

That’s exactly what I don’t get–your myopic worldview. If it doesn’t affect you directly, then who cares, right? Americans are more important than other people, is that what your saying–in particular that you are more important than other people?
September 30th, 2005 at 10:36 am
Ron says:

You are deluding yourself if you believe that you can affect change in Iraq. it is not going to happen. You are falling prey to your own propaganda.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:39 am
A Marine in Baghdad says:

Punchy–
Tell me how many Iraqis you have spoken to? You feel you are qualified to know what Iraqis want? I have spoken to them on a daily basis–I walk to their Ground Forces Headquarters EVERY day, and EVERY one tells me that they are an Iraqi first. In poll after poll, they want a unified country. It is the purposeful and deliberate acts of a select few–Al qaeda that is trying desperately to foment civil war here.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:40 am
Patriot says:

Declare victory and leave. The videos of Abu Ghraib sex torture will end the war if you don’t.
The Muslim problem is here to stay. We’re going to have to make a pact with them in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, Afghanistan, etc.
The Homeland Security Act , thanks to Katrina and no border security, has already been exposed as merely a spy agency. The people will revolt.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:43 am
Gary Kleppe says:

Thatâ€™s exactly what I donâ€™t getâ€“your myopic worldview. If it doesnâ€™t affect you directly, then who cares, right?

Nope. Wrong. I guess the Marines, if you really are one, don’t require reading comprehension training.

I’m not saying I don’t care. What I am saying is that I don’t have a right to make other people’s decisions. And by the same token, my country doesn’t have the right to make other countries’ decisions.

Americans are more important than other people, is that what your [SIC] sayingâ€“in particular that you are more important than other people?

Huh? What the hell are you talking about? You are the one who seems to think that Iraq’s government should be determined by American interests.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:43 am
A Marine in Baghdad says:

Gary Kleppe–
You are so wise. Except this fact–the terrorists like Zarqawi aren’t going to let the people choose. They cut off the heads of people who disagree with them. They murder innocent people based on race and religion. They call elections an apostasy and beat and kill women for showing their ankles. So if that is your idea of a “progressive” government, then I need to redefine some words that I was obviously mistaught.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:43 am
Randy says:

A Marine in Baghdad,

Welcome to this board. Perhaps you can share with us some of the positive things that are happening in Iraq. The MSM is too focused on defeat and sees that as our only option. Democracy is spreading to the Mideast for the first time in history, thanks to your efforts and the decisions made by Bush. We will succeed in Iraq as we have in Afghanistan and that is what is driving the left crazy.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:47 am
A Marine in Baghdad says:

“Patriot” –you still sound like a racist. “The Muslim problem is not going away.” What is the problem exactly, that they’re Muslim? That they’re 700 years behind? That ALL of them are a certain way and there is no hope at all in changing them? Why are you trying to change them? The VAST MAJORITY of Muslims want freedom, they want democracy, they want civil rights, and they want equality. What exactly are we trying to change?
September 30th, 2005 at 10:48 am
Patriot says:

Who cares what the Iraqis want. I don’t give a shit about Iraqis. No more than I care about Cubans or Israelis. Israel does not need our military presence!
They don’t have a constitution! We give them weapons and money, sure! But THEY got it figured out. Freedom fighter bring democracy. Not occupiers.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:50 am
Gary Kleppe says:

You are so wise.

I’m a wise guy, yes.

Except this factâ€“the terrorists like Zarqawi arenâ€™t going to let the people choose.

Well, Bush certainly isn’t. We don’t have honest elections in the US anymore; why should we believe that elections in Iraq supervised by Bush’s cronies will be any better?

They cut off the heads of people who disagree with them. They murder innocent people based on race and religion.

Abu Gharaib. Gitmo. Pot. Kettle.

They call elections an apostasy and beat and kill women for showing their ankles. So if that is your idea of a â€œprogressiveâ€ government, then I need to redefine some words that I was obviously mistaught.

No, you just need to work on your reading comprehension. I didn’t say whether it would be a progressive government. I hope it would be, but whether it is is for the Iraqis to decide — not me, not you, and certainly not Bush.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:51 am
progressive and proud says:

Didn’t Russia try this and fail? So we stay until…Until when? What if they have a civil war after we pull out? Do we go back? Have we “adopted” their country? What if we are there in 10 years? Is that enough time? 20? Is there an end? Or, do we just “stay the course” forever?
September 30th, 2005 at 10:52 am
Patriot says:

Randy,

There is only a small area about the size of Gary, Indiana that’s is civil in Iraq. “The Mayor of Kabul”. That’s the US puppet you’re so proud of. “The Mayor” is a derisive term used by the Afghan locals.
I’m done.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:53 am
progressive and proud says:

What about Darfur? What about women being “circumcized?” Shouldn’t we help them? That’s just as bad as Iraq? What about Iran? What do we do about them? They are more threatening than Iraq at this moment?
September 30th, 2005 at 10:54 am
Punchy says:

Marine–

Go ahead and give us the “Al-Queda” stories. Tell us what THEY’VE done. And when these new pictures of Abu Graib (sp?) torture come out, I challenge you to show me the difference. My point? That we’re doing as much damage to their country as they are. We don’t have the time or the stomach to cut off heads–we have missles that kill much more effectively. We don’t take hosta….wait, nevermind. We do. We throw them in prison. And then we release them months later when their innocence is apparent. And I bet they just LOVE us for that.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:55 am
jordan says:

let’s not for a minute get confused over why bush has sent our troops to iraq. bush does not give a damn about democracy flourishing in the middle east, he only cares about the oil under the sand and securing it for the oil industry. what a horrible waste of our young men and womens lives.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:58 am
Darth Filibustrous says:

Marine –

No question that Bush’s statement is misleading. Put yourself in the shoes of the average guy who listens to the statement. He would think, “All those batallions, sounds like Baghdad is secure now, we’re pretty close to being ready to withdraw our troops now”.

It’s our president’s responsibility to clarify the challenges that our country faces, not minimize the challenges. Americans can face anything, but it doesn’t help when the picture is muddied.
September 30th, 2005 at 11:04 am
Terrytheturtle says:

I’m surprised at the reception the Marine has been given on this thread. Until proven otherwise, take him/her at their word.

The person has a point: the TP post is misleading, but at the same time, the more important number to me is the lack of independent operating capability. So debate his point: what is the purpose of the American occupation and what is the point in continuing it? Patriot, you sound more like IRI today. And I thought the progressive position was more along the lines of ‘troops out now’ because they have an unwinnable situation, are a factor in stimulating the violence and not supporting US interests, whether realpolitik or Wilsonian.

But ‘people don’t care anymore’, ‘their brains are 700 years less mature’ – disgusting. And I thought that the armed services were under orders and as such rely on the citizens at home to look for them and question the ‘commander in chief’.
September 30th, 2005 at 11:07 am
Rotwang says:

I don’t think there’s anything intrinsically inferior about Arabs. However, the “Iraq” that we’re hoping to “democratize” is a geographical convenience that exists only on maps…and has only ever been “stabilized” through the application of Military/Colonial rule, or by an indigenous, brutal strongman supported by the West.

Letting the country break up into three smaller nations wouldn’t stop the fighting, and would only draw Turkey, Iran, Syria and God-knows-who-else into the fray. So I hope the newly-liberated Iraqi people are happy with whichever flavor of old-school forced nationhood wins out.

Just a damn shame we didn’t think this thing through beforehand.
September 30th, 2005 at 11:15 am
Terrytheturtle says:

Oh and Marine, you can’t play your ‘uniform’ card (how many of you have fought in Iraq?) too often either. I call bullshit on Al-Qaeda being the main driver on the insurgency. US generals admit that (1) 90-95% of the insurgents are Iraqis sympathetic to the former regime or pissed off that their relatives are being blown up or shot or sodomized with broomsticks by their ‘liberators’ (and put on porn websites)
(2) Each time the US goes in with ‘all the gear and no idea’ and kills a few ‘collateral damage’ each death turns one or two more people against the occupation.

And we know Abu Ghraib is not a localized ‘few bad apples’ – it’s a culture of abuse coming from the top. As an intelligence officer, maybe you can comment on that. There are over 30,000 people being held in Iraq right now, were they all Al Qaeda? How come 90% of them appear to be innocent (and not hiding stuff in their rectums) and get released… eventually…

When the Iraqis want ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’ they don’t mean US-style corporate-domination and local toadys to front it. You know the kind of ‘freedom’ Jerry Bremer instilled when he made it against the law for Iraqi farmers to keep seeds and make them buy from Monsanto instead.
September 30th, 2005 at 11:26 am
A Marine in Baghdad says:

Sorry, I would love to keep talking, but “Patriot” is right, there is a war going on, and I don’t have all day to wax philosophic about history. I will say this, though, as my final thought. These people are desperate for democracy, for justice, and for peace. The terrorists have made this their central front in the war on terror–this is the battleground they have chosen. The terrorists chose it, and regardless of why we came here, the reason we remain here is to stop terrorism. The threat is real and we stop it here or there will be more 9-11s. You can call my position histrionic if you will, and insult my lack of reading comprehension, but I know what I have seen with my own eyes. We are not forcing this on the majority of Iraqis. They want it. And I have a feeling that the people that should be caring about them most, i.e. the people that believe in liberalism and decent humanity, are failing them for want of courage in standing up to a few thugs.
September 30th, 2005 at 11:35 am
cynical ex-hippie says:

That and any other debate still doesnâ€™t answer the questionâ€“What is the alternative?

The point we are trying to make is Bush put us in a position where we have no good alternatives. Stay and get chewed up one by one (five by five on bad days), or leave the place in ruin and chaos. Neither one sounds like a shining example of democracy in the mideast. All those dicatorships we were supposed to inspire to move to democracy? No one is looking at Iraq right now and saying, “I want that for my country.”

What IS the alternative? Pull out now? Allow civil war? Destabilze the world economy? Allow Al Qaeda to declare victory and set up shop in Iraq, just like Afghanistan?

It looks a lot like civil war now. Oil prices are working to destabilize the world economy, and Bush has already allowed al Qaeda to set up shop in Iraq. They also operate with impunity in Pakistan, despite what your dear friend Musharraf says.

Let them â€œdevelopâ€ for the next 700 years, and in the meantime allow them to keep killing Americans (because theyâ€™re not going to stop in Iraq)?

They didn’t start in Iraq until we invaded. Can you name one terrorist attack on Americans that was staged from Iraq before March 2003? And they will develop for the next 700 years no matter what, and so will we and everyone else. Historically, development is not a bad thing.

And if you’re on the ground seeing things we don’t, perhaps you can explain how having troops in Iraq protects us against terrorists training in Pakistan (e.g. the London bombers)?
September 30th, 2005 at 11:40 am
Clyde the Ripper says:

It is unclear to me why it is that TP is thought to be misleading. TP posted two quotes, one from DUHbya and one from the top military leader in Iraq. On the surface they seem to be contradictory but with a little examination the deception of DUHbya is painfully obvious. The erroneous assumption that one is expected to make from DUHbya’s assertion is that an an “operating” battallion is the same as a self-sufficient combat ready military unit. Even Marine has posted that the Iraqis are not operational without US direction and support. There may very well be over 100 groups or gangs calling themselves battallions and I suspect the good general was being kind when he said there was one operational unit. Given the thread yesterday that talked about the Iraqi forces have been infiltrated by the insurgents only one conclusion can be logically drawn: BUSH LIED. There are lies of ommission as well as lies of commission. By not defining his terms and deliberately using ambiguous terms to be confused with well known terms he misled the reader, He was deceptive ergo a liar.
September 30th, 2005 at 11:42 am
cynical ex-hippie says:

So the terrorists chose Iraq as the battlefield? How? By staging their operations in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia?

You must understand why some of us find this position confusing, at best. It’s not for lack of courage. I’m pointing both fingers at Pakistan right now, but for lack of courage Bush chooses to ignore the real center of terrorism. That is my opinion.
September 30th, 2005 at 11:44 am
Terrytheturtle says:

Marine, what about the possibility that US actions (I include Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, Falluja) are stimulating (along with continued support for local nasty behavior such as Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Saudi Arabia and Israel) the rise of anti western terror. That this very invasion and the failure of the US to demonstrate the values that you say the people aspire to is what is fueling the terror. The US may have been at one time ‘the shining city on the hill’ to Iraqis the day you invaded, but they have seen the reality up front as time went on and don’t idealise you any more.

Many of the people on this board were ‘radicalized’ the day the tanks rolled across the border into Iraq because they knew the invasion was the wrong solution. What about those millions of people in the countries around you who see dead Iraqis (about 100,000 now by some counts) and are radicalised by that. Look at the London bombings – 4 men who bombed their own citizens because of what their goverment was doing in Iraq. Chicken and egg, every day the occupation goes on creates more men like them so there will be more 9-11s.
September 30th, 2005 at 11:46 am
Punchy says:

Marine–

Since you’re all about helping those in need, after Iraq, please go to Darfur next. South Africa could also use some help with their murder rate. Then, we need you to move to North Korea and deal with their human rights violations. Next, please drop by Ubekistan (sp?) and kick their ass for violations, too. Iran, I believe, is next in line for nation re-building. Bastard Mullahs. Chechnya could probably use a few good fighters to hold off those oppresive Russians. And while you’re at it, maybe you could finish up with some help in the Gulf Coast.

See? It’s all about helping the needy. Those that want change. And since I could probably count about 100 countries that need/want “change”, I’m glad we have an army so devoted to that. I’ll see ya back here in the States in….I dunno…30 years? Good luck!
September 30th, 2005 at 11:48 am
Dumb Fox says:

Good call, Terry. For me, the glaring contradiction that TP have outlined is Bush saying we have Iraqi forces increasingly effective, and the General saying that there are now fewer Iraqis batallions capable of fighting on their own.

Anyways, bar a handful of whackos, I think we all respect the job our troops are doing. Whatever befalls Iraq, we can know that if things don’t get better, it will be in spite of, not because of, the endeavors of those serving in Iraq.

And the sad fact is, and Marine has referred to this, we are looking at the same situation the Soviets faced when they got bogged down in Afghanistan nearly 20 years ago. They faced an insurgency of nationalists and jihadists; so do we. They propped up a government that was acceptable to them; so do we. They feared that if they left, there’d a power vacuum; so do we.

The Soviets eventually buckled under domestic pressure, left, you-know-who set up shop there etc, etc… and Afghanistan remained a failed state, and still has a long way to go to establish any kind of normalcy.

We and our troops especially, desparately need a change of leadership and a new strategy to make headway in Iraq. Bush is clearly incapable of this sort of leadership. When the guy says stay the course, I imagine this is the same thing he said to Arbusto employees as he drilled his way around Texas pretending to be a businessman (this was back when oil was $10 a barrel and our MBA president couldn’t figure out his f*cking company would never make money).

Why stay the course? Because this maggotsh*t trust-fund baby has been weaned on having someone would come to his rescue. For his whole life, Bush has had people bailing him out. Reality caught up with Chimpy when he started a pipe-dream, hubristic war and occupation, where there is no fall-back position, no-one to bail you out.

Ultimately, we gotta figure a way out ourselves and we gotta do it without Bush and the Neocons. It’s a shame not enough people figured that out nearly a year ago.
September 30th, 2005 at 11:50 am
cynical ex-hippie says:

Bush is the master of misleading statements. Oh, you thought we invaded Iraq because they had WMD? How stupid of you, he never said that! He never questioned the integrity of his political opponents, either. He didn’t say, “Mission Accomplished.” Where did you get that notion? He said Kerry voted 98 times for higher taxes, he never said Kerry voted to raise taxes more than he voted to lower them. He said 100 batallions are operating. If you think this means 100 batallions are capable of operating independently, without being infiltrated by the enemy, that’s your problem not his.
September 30th, 2005 at 11:50 am
Gary Kleppe says:

So the terrorists chose Iraq as the battlefield? How?

Read the Downing Street minutes.

Oh, were you talking about different terrorists?
September 30th, 2005 at 12:14 pm
Peace Lover says:

As I see it there are two choices. 1 – Continue as is with the US (and “coalition”) forces to a) train the Iraqis b) protect the “democracy” i.e. elections and c) protect the people. or 2 – Increase the number of forces so as to do the jobs of a,b and c above more effectively. Of course the third option is out right withdrawl but that I feel is the absolute worst case scenario. If Iraq is left on thier own it would surely be a true uncivil civil war with extremists winning out.

I do believe that the marine is correct in that the people desparatly want peace to come to thier country.
Option 1 is what has been happening and seems to be an absolute losing cause. From my vatange point safely tucked away in my home, I see Iraqis not enjoying much peace. Much less than with the oppressive Saddam.

It’s time that the US increases the “coalition” to staggering numbers that can, with much more feasability, accomplish a,b and c. It blows my mind to see that even with the insurgents killing Iraqi police officers everyday that more and more Iraqis are lining up to join the police force. Iraqis want thier own country and the whole damn world should be helping them to accomplish this. Option 1 may be helping but it is on way too small a scale and as we can see it is not gaining enough ground.

The world has to help the general population of Iraqis, be them Kurds or Shiites or Sunnis, that the insurgents and Zarqawi et al are DEAD WRONG in thier approach and they will not WIN the struggle to gain power in Iraq. I would be willing to bet that the Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis can live in peace just as other counties having separate religious groups living in peace.

Unfortunately, this struggle IS a religious struggle but the powers that be MUST find a way to help democracy in a highly religious society work. I am sad that other countries of like religion aren’t in there trying thier damndest to figure it out.

Damn it. I’m just a dreamer. Long live John Lennon.
September 30th, 2005 at 12:25 pm
progressive and proud says:

Problem is, there are not a “few” thugs. That is irresponsible to underestimate their numbers – which, by the way, are growing and not only in Iraq. That is the consequence we pay to this “war.” They are all over the world. Oops, now what?
September 30th, 2005 at 12:29 pm
Iraqi with time to burn in Bagdad says:

Get the F out of my country Private Parts(Marine in Bagdad) and leave my oil alone. Stop building bases, raping,torturing, killing and plundering.
September 30th, 2005 at 12:36 pm
Gary Kleppe says:

If Iraq is left on thier own it would surely be a true uncivil civil war with extremists winning out.

The problem with the “if we leave, the bad people will win” argument is that there are no people more bad and more dangerous than the people currently in the White House. As long as the Bushies retain power over Iraq, the bad people winning is a certainty.

I do believe that the marine is correct in that the people desparatly want peace to come to thier country.

Yes, but they also want their country freed from its foreign occupiers, just as we would in a similar situation.

Itâ€™s time that the US increases the â€œcoalitionâ€ to staggering numbers that can, with much more feasability, accomplish a,b and c.

And you’ll enlist so that you can be part of these staggering numbers?

Didn’t think so.

It blows my mind to see that even with the insurgents killing Iraqi police officers everyday that more and more Iraqis are lining up to join the police force.

People have to eat, and it’s not like there are too many other ways in Iraq to make a living right now.

Iraqis want thier own country and the whole damn world should be helping them to accomplish this.

Iraqis will never have their own country until they throw out the foreign occupiers.

The world has to help the general population of Iraqis, be them Kurds or Shiites or Sunnis, that the insurgents and Zarqawi et al are DEAD WRONG in thier approach and they will not WIN the struggle to gain power in Iraq.

What approach would that be? Might makes right? You aren’t going to prove that wrong (at least not in any way you’d like to) by adopting the same approach.

I would be willing to bet that the Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis can live in peace just as other counties having separate religious groups living in peace.

Sure they can. But nobody is going to settle down and be peaceful when they’ve got foreign occupiers controlling their country.

Unfortunately, this struggle IS a religious struggle but the powers that be MUST find a way to help democracy in a highly religious society work.

The religion element is a smokescreen. The question here is whether the Iraqis can control their own country or whether Bush and his cronies will.

Damn it. Iâ€™m just a dreamer. Long live John Lennon.

Just a guess, but I don’t think Lennon would have seen military occupation as a pathway to peace.
September 30th, 2005 at 1:07 pm
Sharon Cox says:

Thank You!, Gary, very good, I agree 100%. If more of our people would listen to the unbeded reporters that have talked to iraq citizens they would see and hear what you say is true. Npr has had a few very good reporters say that very thing, the iraq citizens want us out, now. They say they are worse off than they were under Sadam..Would hope we with draw all our troops soon….Blessings
September 30th, 2005 at 1:18 pm
The WB42 5:30 Report With Doug Krile says:

Link Dump for Friday

Trying a new format to make it a bit easier to pull multiple links together. Let us know what you think. Thumbs up? Or thumbs down?
September 30th, 2005 at 1:21 pm
Sharon Cox says:

Thumbs down #74, format and text to hard to read….Blessings
September 30th, 2005 at 1:27 pm
Bush Misleads on Progress in Iraq - Brokekid.net says:

[...] (via thinkprogress.org) [...]
September 30th, 2005 at 1:33 pm
Gary Kleppe says:

Sharon: You’re welcome. I aim to please, and occasionally hit. :)

BTW, you might need to post your comment on #74’s site for him to see it. His post here is a trackback, which is generated automatically when another blog links to this page.
September 30th, 2005 at 1:33 pm
Ryan Neat says:

“These people are desperate for democracy, for justice, and for peace. The terrorists have made this their central front in the war on terrorâ€“this is the battleground they have chosen. The terrorists chose it, and regardless of why we came here, the reason we remain here is to stop terrorism.”

The terrorists were CREATED there because you came you blasted retard! Being there only creates MORE terrorists, not less. Has the occupation of Palestine and the use of an iron boot stopped terrorists? NO, it’s made it worse.

Why can people like you be so incapable of grasping the obvious! YOUR ACTIONS ARE CREATING THE TERRORISTS!
September 30th, 2005 at 1:48 pm
reasew says:

You can argue that both comments are in some way the truth, be it one, 100 or 1 million battalions. The question that has to be asked is, why did Bush decide to only mention the 100 battalion ‘truth’. His intent was to mislead because the higher number serves his purpose..’all is going well’ and we can pull out (or promise to) in time to save house and senate republicans. It’s the rhythm method..pull out in time to avoid the unwanted baby of impeachment when enough democrats are in office to vote him out of office (ah, the irony, the people didn’t vote him in but the people’s representatives can vote him out..)
September 30th, 2005 at 2:07 pm
Patriot says:

Terry the Turtle,

The demise of the Arab society is not “disgusting”. Ancient Arab society set the benchmarks for the industrial revolution. Iraq is the cradle of civilization. Egyptian society was intellectually superior to what it is now. Noone knows what happened to ancient Arabia. But they are F*CKED now. They have been damaged permanently by the Judeo-Chtistian-Mohammed disease. And they are 700 years behind the Jews and Christians in their world view. And they know it.
September 30th, 2005 at 2:12 pm
Terrytheturtle says:

#80, defend your own words Patriot, not the words you wish you had said. In a handful of posts you made several statements I found disgusting: ‘brains are 700 years less mature than the average W.A.S.P’ and that ‘people don’t care anymore’ about Iraq. I was not referring to the demise of Arab civilisation. Implicit in your posts were the thought that Arabs are not fit for what you think of as civilization. Who are you to decide what is civilization and who is fit for it?
September 30th, 2005 at 2:47 pm
keyman12 says:

People..its great to see all this dialoque about our situation in Iraq. The problem with “a marine in Bagdad” and others is that they embrace the philosophy “my country right or wrong”. This was the same mentality that some of us “senior”
anti war protestors had shoved down our throats by the Johnson/Nixon war in Vietnam. When you adhere to this policy you cannot possibly admit that your country might be wrong. Every politician that’s ever been elected will immediately after declaring victory will “reach out” to the loser and pronouce “I am a uniter not a divider”. Remember who said that? So after loosing in 2004 we assumed George Bush would of course purse his agenda and there would be
give and take and compromise for the greater good of the country. This did not happen. The Republican agenda is being shoved down our throats with no intent of compromise or anything. As I said earlier its my country right or wrong. One of our fundamental rights is to be able to peacefully protest. I went onto to “blogs for bush” and you wouldn’t believe..well you probably would the awful things they say about Cindy Sheehan. So I guess all the “my-country-right-or-wrong” people would have us lefties just lockstep with them and follow der Leader like lemmings to the sea. Last point on Iraq “ITS ABOUT THE OIL STUPID!! Its got nothing to do with helping the Iragis. WE ARE THERE FOR THE OIL!! We have no intention of “getting out of Iraq” WE ARE THERE FOR THE OIL!!
We are building “permanent” bases there as we speak. WE ARE THERE FOR THE OIL!! I could go on and on and all lockstep repubs and others can believe anything you want. But as Chris Carter (x-files creator) said THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE and the truth of why we are in Iraq is…WE ARE THERE FOR THE OIL!
September 30th, 2005 at 3:03 pm
Patriot says:

Fair enough, Terry. I talk to jarheads differently than non.
September 30th, 2005 at 3:06 pm
Patriot says:

Arabs are not fit for democracy was and is my implicit mindset. And it’s not a new idea, either.
September 30th, 2005 at 3:08 pm
Peace Lover says:

Thanks Gary Kleppe for setting me straight. I would never have thought that I was so wrong in basically everything I wrote earlier. Silly me. LOL

I take it you feel a complete pullout is the best solution. I would love to see that too but now I am thinking – At what cost to the Iraqi people? Do you believe that all Iraqis want the occupiers out? What do you think they feel will happen if the occupiers just left? If the US and UN left the Kurds out to dry in Gulf war 1 what would it be like now?

Perhaps Iraqis would be better off getting on by themselves. I don’t know. I do know that the situation cannot continue as it is.

I’ll ask you this, if the troops are all pulled out now, what do think will be the consequences?
September 30th, 2005 at 3:16 pm
Tom Delay says:

Iâ€™ll ask you this, if the troops are all pulled out now, what do think will be the consequences?

I honestly don’t know, but I can’t see how they could possibly be any worse than the consequences of continuing the occupation.
September 30th, 2005 at 3:20 pm
Gary Kleppe says:

D’oh. Forgot to take the mask off.
September 30th, 2005 at 3:20 pm
Peace Lover says:

Keyman12 – Thanks for remininding me (and all else here that have forgotton) that it is indeed about the oil. Sudan has no oil – so no help for you! Aids in Africa has no oil – so no help for you! Some parts of Africa do have oil but where there is oil and aids the big oil companies are IN – so no help for you! North Korea has a worse dictator than Saddam but no oil – so no help for you! Bush and co. are the oil Nazi’s!
September 30th, 2005 at 3:23 pm
Ryan Neat says:

“If the US and UN left the Kurds out to dry in Gulf war 1 what would it be like now?”

That’s an irrelevant comparison. We weren’t occupying kurdish territory. We promised them if they revolted we would support them militarily – and we lied.

“Iâ€™ll ask you this, if the troops are all pulled out now, what do think will be the consequences?”

Strawman argument for many reasons.

1) If we had used UN troops originally instead of american troops we wouldn’t be in this mess.
2) Our forces could be replaced by UN and Arab League troops – that would produce a decidedly different result and feeling in the population.
3) A ‘we just withdraw without peacekeepers is always an extremist response that stupid republicans with no imagination or awareness of past international peacekeeping efforts make. It just shows their (your) stupidity and ineptness at understanding geopolitical contexts.
4) Every day we’re there it gets worse – BECAUSE we’re there. That’s a fact. So your belief that things will get worse if we leave is ungrounded in reality – but instead is grounded in OIL!
September 30th, 2005 at 3:24 pm
Peace Lover says:

Ah Gary, there you are.
September 30th, 2005 at 3:24 pm
Sharon Cox says:

Keyman12 #82, we must be from the same erra and mind set. Know there are many permanent bases being built in Iraq, last total over 100. This in a country like our present southern states with no water, power or jobs for their people. Our country and the world is in a mess and it’s all because of Bushes big business and relegion, one in the same. This is why the world hates us, not like bush says, freedom and our constitution, both items are being distroyed by this administration along with thousands of other things like peoples lives, enviroment and wildlife. All for oil and power….Thank you for your well written post…Blessings
September 30th, 2005 at 3:27 pm
Peace Lover says:

Ryan – Sometimes the strawman needs to make an appearance!
September 30th, 2005 at 3:27 pm
Punchy says:

#84–be very careful when you conflate Arabs and Muslims. They are not the same. You continue to use those proper nouns interchangeably, and that part is indeed ignorant. I do agree, however, that the patriarchal tenets that Muslims accept does make it much more difficult to establish a true democracy (i.e., every wo/man is equal). Simply, their religion clashes with certain aspects of such gov’t.
September 30th, 2005 at 3:29 pm
Terrytheturtle says:

#84, er, just Arabs or Muslims in general? Er, Turkey?

Would you indulge me and read this again Patriot … http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html and then tell me that it should not apply to Arabs, in the same way it did not apply to blacks or women in 1776. That second paragraph…remember…? Or is only for who you say it is…
September 30th, 2005 at 3:34 pm
Peace Lover says:

I’m happy to have stirred things up. Generally it’s not in my nature. :-) Beats the hell out of the regular trolling don’t you think?
September 30th, 2005 at 3:34 pm
Gary Kleppe says:

Iâ€™m happy to have stirred things up. Generally itâ€™s not in my nature. :-) Beats the hell out of the regular trolling donâ€™t you think?

Very true. A day without trolls is like, um, a day without sunburn. Or something.
September 30th, 2005 at 3:44 pm
Ryan Neat says:

“Ryan – Sometimes the strawman needs to make an appearance!”

Prove it…
September 30th, 2005 at 3:55 pm
Ryan Neat says:

The strawman is the realm of the propagandist and the uncreative. It’s only necessary when they have no REAL argument to defend the indefensible…
September 30th, 2005 at 3:56 pm
Peace Lover says:

So I have some questions – how are we supposed to know the real situation in Iraq? How is the rebuilding of electricy and water going? How is the training of Iraqi police going? It seems we have no true source for these questions? Shouldn’t the occupiers be proudly showing off how things are progressing?
September 30th, 2005 at 3:56 pm
Peace Lover says:

Ryan, I don’t understand what it is I’m to prove. I made the “appearance” comment as joke. Your seem to indicate that I was making an argument. I asked some questions I didn’t offer any argument.
September 30th, 2005 at 4:04 pm
Sharon Cox says:

No progress, nothing to show, just more baseless words and our best dieing for the Bush big business and vendetta….Blessings
September 30th, 2005 at 4:09 pm
Patriot says:

I don’t find a practical difference between Arabs and Muslims. My first employer/role model outside of my father was an Iranian who escaped with his wife and life in the back of a pickup while being shot at by radicals during the Iran revolution. He was a minority. The smart ones came here, to the good ole USA. He was the sweetest most peaceful man I knew. And a Muslim. A rare breed.(Don’t bother telling me Iran is not Arab)
Of course, Arabs/Muslims can’t come to the USA anymore…
My point? Arab/Muslims, for the most part, are the Christian equivilant of the dutiful, obediant, berated, dominated, uneducated, sweet little old southern baptist housewife who knows no other way to live.
September 30th, 2005 at 4:13 pm
Patriot says:

MUSLIM equivilant, correction.
September 30th, 2005 at 4:15 pm
Terrytheturtle says:

#99. True enough, how can you find out? Alterman features a Major blogging once a week, he is good reading. Dahr Jamahl and some of the non-coalition blogs. It is hard to find a journalist who can credibly write about conditions outside the Green Zone. I surf Al Jazeera regularly, but like Fox News, you need to double check them.

Back to Rob Corddry: “The facts themselves are biased, John”
September 30th, 2005 at 4:19 pm
Patriot says:

#99
That is a good question, if not the best. Why AREN’T the advancements being showcased for us evry night on TV?
If my administration was as downtrodden as this one I’d be pushing footage of every damn feel good story there was. No, we keep getting the same ole “stay the course like you’re supposed to” sh*t.
September 30th, 2005 at 4:28 pm
Terrytheturtle says:

#102, Turkey, a nation stuffed full of Muslims who seem to be able to pull off a democratic form of Islam enough to convince the EU into considering their membership. So no practical difference? I have a concrete example of nearly 100 million Muslims making democracy work for them. Otherwise you sound like the people who justified slavery on the grounds that the Negro is incapable of looking after himself. How about actually placing some belief in the possibilities of others, isn’t that what’s the US was built on? If the DOI is only meant for people ‘fit for democracy’ then you may as well stop spouting this ‘freedom’ bullshit, crown the Chimp emperor, pass out the guns and start the new American Imperium, because the republic is dead.
September 30th, 2005 at 4:29 pm
Thomas Paine says:

#106 – is that my cue to roll over in my grave again?
September 30th, 2005 at 4:31 pm
Terrytheturtle says:

#102 and Iran: they had managed to set up a possible Turkey-style moderate government in 1953 under Mossadegh until Kermit Roosevelt and the CIA got to him and stuck in the Shah. Ever hear about what made the locals so radical in Iran in 1979? I don’t believe the ‘not fit for democracy’ line – if the US and the other oil-grabbing imperial powers left them alone, they might do it by themselves.
September 30th, 2005 at 4:35 pm
Patriot says:

I see nothing wrong with letting Iraq progress at the same rate as Turkey. VIVA! Democracy! How is Turkey comin’ along there in the EU, Terry?
You’re wanting Jack Daniels served in a Southern Comfort bottle. I guess I’ve been alittle cynical…
September 30th, 2005 at 5:17 pm
Patriot says:

I like your posts, Terry. I have always read them. You’re a peaceful, sincere person. I don’t like to fight you, nor am I trying to. If my memory serves me you are not an American? Correct? I for one am tired of our foreign policy. Most of us are. And that’s all that matters.
September 30th, 2005 at 5:22 pm
Terrytheturtle says:

Cynically enough, the asshats in Brussels (mostly Paris and Rome) are trying to play the race card against Turkey to keep them out of the EU. This may be the one thing I am on the side of the Chimp for.
September 30th, 2005 at 5:24 pm
progressive and proud says:

Look trolls, a civilized disagreement where two points are heard and each may have learned something about the other and their opinion or reason for their opinion.

I think you should be here, at least for educational purposes for yourselves, but please don’t post unless it can be done in a manner similar to Terrytheturtle’s and Patriot’s. This is a classic example of two intelligent people having a candid back and forth. We all don’t agree, we are very different. But, we all want the same thing – unity and a forgiving government which we all can feel that we own and control.

I really hope this isn’t lost on you. I learn things everyday and this would help you. Your “how to win friends and influence people” trip ain’t comin’ off so well.
September 30th, 2005 at 5:55 pm
David B says:

How do you know when the President is lying? When his lips are moving.
October 1st, 2005 at 9:36 am
Gotcha says:

“please donâ€™t post unless it can be done in a manner similar to Terrytheturtleâ€™s and Patriotâ€™s. This is a classic example of two intelligent people having a candid back and forth.”

We have TtT with such choice rhetoric as “asshats” and “the Chimp” on one side . . . and Patriot with “I donâ€™t find a practical difference between Arabs and Muslims” and “Donâ€™t bother telling me Iran is not Arab” on the other side.

Yes, please don’t post unless you have the education of a 5th grader, at least.
October 4th, 2005 at 9:26 am
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December 2nd, 2005 at 4:28 pm
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December 3rd, 2005 at 1:22 pm

Bush Misleads on Progress in Iraq

Bush Misleads on Progress in Iraq

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