Vietnam 2005
Vietnam 2005
Ever since Vietnam, military strategists have agreed using enemy body counts is a useless benchmark for success.
Conrad Crane, director of the Military History Institute at the U.S. Army War College: “It was a pretty useless statistic that did more harm than good.”
Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, on attempt to quantify success in Grenada: “We need to stay away from this body count business. It caused us terrible trouble in Vietnam and it will cause us terrible trouble here.”
Gen. Tommy Franks, 3/18/02: “You know we don’t do body counts.”
Sec. Donald Rumsfeld, 11/2/03: “We don’t do body counts on other people.”
The Washington Post, however, reported last week:
Using enemy body counts as a benchmark, the U.S. military claimed gains against Abu Musab Zarqawi’s foreign-led fighters last week even as they mounted their deadliest attacks on Iraq’s capital.
Question: Why is the Pentagon now using enemy body counts as a measure of success/failure?
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Let’s see…we could use the following benchmarks, instead:
September 30th, 2005 at 2:07 pm1) WMD discoveries
2) # of safe neighborhoods in Bagdahd (sp?)
3) number of bombings per week
4) number of politicians NOT killed
5) world perception of our undertaking
6) effect on terrorist production
7) …nevermind…they better stick with body counts
What’s good for the goose is good only if it’s bad for the gander.
September 30th, 2005 at 2:09 pmWhat else is there? To counter our losses, they have to present the public with something, right?
Okay, let’s get Osama (dead or alive)…Hmmmmm…Nope!
Okay, let’s liberate the people from the Taliban regime…Hmmmmmm…Nope (not popular enough)!
Okay, let’s get the WMD’s…Hmmmmmm…Nope!
Okay, let’s break them (Iraq) free of terror…Hmmmmm…Nope!
Okay, let’s topple Saddam and watch the rose parade…Hmmmmmmm….Nope!!!
Okay, let’s draft a constitution and make it so we have set a standard of democracy in Iraq…Hmmmmmm…Nope!
Okay, let’s focus on elections and how it will stabilize the Iraqi people…Hmmmmmmm…Nope!
Oh well, let’s talk about how we are killing them at a dismal rate compared to the losses that we have taken, and maybe that will make us seem like we are making some progress in the war on terror!!!
Hey, nothing else worked…So why the hell not try to divert attention from the dismal failure at home! He’s looking for another plane, because nothing else in his administration has worked (unless you are a millionaire)!
September 30th, 2005 at 2:12 pmHow can we confirm that those bodies are terrorists or members of Al-Qaeda? Maybe they are just Iraqis opposing the occupation. Maybe they are just innocent people caught in the cross-fire. We don’t kow.
September 30th, 2005 at 2:12 pmEasy, because it is the only measure they can even pretend is a success.
September 30th, 2005 at 2:13 pm*No not know*
What do I no? I’m Bozo The Conservative Clown!
September 30th, 2005 at 2:19 pmIt don’t matter how many ‘Mericans die for the cause as long as we can get atleast one of those damn EERAKEES!
September 30th, 2005 at 2:27 pmKilling EERAKEES is definately a measure of success!
‘True’ body counts tell the facts of the blood and guts that war costs. WE NEED THEM, and have a right to them. They ‘fixed’ the count in Nam.
September 30th, 2005 at 2:27 pmUnfortunately, the reason is obvious – disturbing, but obvious – and that is that it is far easier to produce dead bodies than to identify any actual progress or positive news regarding the occupation.
This regime, the republican dominated (and democrat allowed) administration, must be replaced. Pure historical logic dictates that the world and its societies will always eventually purge such corruption through whatever means necessary. The question for Americans is; Will you, from your ivory tower of self-righteousness perform the purge or will you stand by in arrogant ignorance until it is forced upon you?
I hope for the former, but expect the latter.
September 30th, 2005 at 2:29 pmViet Nam is what fueled the second wave of liberalism in the 60s. Iraq will do the same. We should thank the right for shooting their own big ass clown shoes off.
September 30th, 2005 at 2:29 pmUsing body counts didn’t work for them because it made the public realize how horrifying war is.
I remember as a child hearing the “body counts” every night on the news. I thought soon there wouldn’t be any people left on the earth. That has stuck with me for a long time.
September 30th, 2005 at 2:31 pm#4–don’t worry. they’re ALL terrorists. we wouldn’t kill the innocent people! and we surely wouldn’t put them in jail, either.
alas, the dead MUST be terrorists. bad ones, too. so bad, that they were actually killed without holding a gun or weapon, and had the audacity to be with their families in their houses when they met their maker. But they deserved to die, because all the terrorist things they were doing, like working or sleeping or cooking or walking….
September 30th, 2005 at 2:34 pmGrabbing at any straw trying hard to stay afloat so now its “Body Count Time” ,expect to hear more.
September 30th, 2005 at 2:36 pmIt’s a subliminal message because it fits well with the ‘fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here’ bs the Bushbots/neocons have been putting forth. They think that people will think the ‘oh we are killing so many terrorists we MUST be safer now’. The problem is most of us are on to them. LMAO
September 30th, 2005 at 2:46 pmIt’s a subliminal message because it fits well with the ‘fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here’ bs the Bushbots/neocons have been putting forth. They think that people will think the ‘oh we are killing so many terrorists we MUST be safer now’. The problem is most of us are on to them. LMAO
September 30th, 2005 at 2:46 pmI was against the body counts before I was for the body counts.
September 30th, 2005 at 2:50 pmThis just in from Captain Obvious:
How do you know if the stiff lying in the street was a good guy/girl/kid/baby or a bad guy/girl/kid/baby?
And a follow-up question: how do you know when you have shot/blown up/napalmed/rammed a broomstick up the rectum of enough good/bad guys/girls/kids/babies?
And a final bonus question: how do you know that the act of finding out the answer to questions above doesn’t create more bad guys/girls/kids/babies?
September 30th, 2005 at 2:58 pmI’d rather be a flip-flopper than a lying, murderous, greedy, ignorant, hateful, incompretent. Call me crazy.
September 30th, 2005 at 2:59 pmThe body count of enemy combatants is on a need-to-know/show basis only. Don’t keep BCs? Yeah right. There’s another big target for utilising the FOIA.
September 30th, 2005 at 3:11 pmit’s easy to make up (read: inflate) enemy body count especially if you include collateral damage. oh, and blatant lying works well too.
September 30th, 2005 at 3:16 pm#18 Good Comment
But, I guess #16 is living in the lap of luxury while the rest of America struggles with poverty, lack of jobs, and increasing gas prices (just to name a few).
Just ONE general question for the MASSES!!!
When did you have MORE money?
During the Clinton era or during this administration?
For me, a blowjob was irrelevant to the greater masses of individual prosperity. But I guess lying, murdering, and incompetance are greater attributes that many Americans voted for with this Governor (oops I mean President!) Damn, it’s good to be free of the military, or else I would face an indefinite extension or worse a speech!!!
September 30th, 2005 at 3:23 pmI’m making a little more money now than Clinton, but it went ALOT farther during Clinton. I was happier during Clinton. Clinton’s blowjobs, I have no problem with. It was Hillary’s business, not mine or anyone elses. Now, dubya, he likes giving all the ALREADY WEALTHY more of MY tax dollars & invades innocent countries, jacks my gas prices through the roof, names friends to jobs they can’t do & then insults me with Supreme Court Justices who will further take away my civil rights & liberties.
God I miss good old fashioned blow jobs….
September 30th, 2005 at 3:30 pmI’ll tell ya somethin’ I CAN count, barrels of oil and cash. Haan HAAAn Han
September 30th, 2005 at 3:34 pm#22 – me too…
September 30th, 2005 at 3:42 pmKindness,
If you hate Bush so much, why don’t you move to Canada or France. You should just get used to the Republican party running things, because until the democrats get their party back from the far-left, they will continue to lose election after election. Why are you making more money? Could it be the Bush tax cut? I would expect the answer to be no, because you can’t give him credit for anything.
September 30th, 2005 at 3:44 pm#25 what about the millions of americans with no jobs or no health insurance? what about the growing poverty problem in this country? How have the tax cuts helped them?
September 30th, 2005 at 3:50 pm“If you hate Bush so much, why don’t you move to Canada or France. You should just get used to the Republican party running things, because until the democrats get their party back from the far-left, they will continue to lose election after election.”
A better question is why you and Bush don’t move to North Korea or Iran – they clearly hold more of your ‘values’ than america does. The ‘far-left’ doesn’t even exist in america – you’re sniffing glue! The american left is now right of Eisenhower, so your claims of ‘leftists’ is just utter delusional insanity!
Ths country was FOUNDED on multi-party and free elections as well as liberal ideas. Democracy was considered the communism of it’s day! But then again, a clueless twit like you would be completely unaware of this fact!
“Why are you making more money? Could it be the Bush tax cut? I would expect the answer to be no, because you can’t give him credit for anything.”
I personally am flush, but I don’t know how many people that I personally know who have and are suffering because of this schmuck. I credit him of giving money to wealthy people at the expense of the nation. This is selfish, short sighted and irrational. Just because I personally benefit doesn’t mean I’m a hateful selfish moron like you are! The ‘I’ve got mine’ attitude of the Reichwing is unamerican and unchristian. You’re all retarded hypocrits whose values clearly belong with third world despots and not a civilized nation!
September 30th, 2005 at 3:51 pm“If you hate Bush so much, why don’t you move to Canada or France. [. . .]”
Comment by Randy — September 30, 2005 @ 3:44 pm
Wow. Flashbacks. That bad acid I did in ‘72 finally caught up with me. “Love it or leave it” rhetoric, body counts – I forget what comes next; is it “pinko scum” or “commie symp”?
September 30th, 2005 at 4:12 pmdano347,
Maybe:
“Better dead than red”?
I think we could use that in the next
September 30th, 2005 at 4:27 pm“blue” / “red” election, no?
You should just get used to the Republican party running things, because until the democrats get their party back from the far-left, they will continue to lose election after election.
Half right. We will continue to lose “elections” until we get the counting back from Diebold and out into the open.
September 30th, 2005 at 4:41 pmI guess you don’t declare victory with the statistics you want, you declare it with the statistics you have. -bn
September 30th, 2005 at 4:51 pmI count five more dead US soldiers yesterday.
It’s stinking to high, high heaven.
September 30th, 2005 at 4:54 pm“If you hate Bush so much, why don’t you move to Canada or France. ”
This love it or leave it rethoric just shows so little respect for the democratic values that are supposed to be embodied in the system we all currently live in, you know.
It sure is an easy way out to get your things packed and move out of your country if you don’t agree with the way things are running, but it takes guts to fight back, and loving your country is not about sitting back hoping that in the next election things will be different. It is about demanding those changes NOW, and it is called a democracy.
Those who leave are nothing more than cowards.
September 30th, 2005 at 5:06 pm“I forget what comes next; is it “pinko scum†or “commie sympâ€? ” Actually, I think it’s Strawberry Alarm Clock singing “Incense & Peppermints.” Or maybe Arthur Brown and “Fire.”
Seriously, though, folks, you have to love body counts. What bodies be they countn’ anyway? Dead human? Dead animal (Viet Nam’s supposedly included many water buffalo)? Celestial? Politic?
Methinks the idea is to give the people in the US the sense that we’re winning. Each week we can compare our score to theirs, and show we “won” by a substantial margin.
To complete the circle of stupidity, I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if the insurgents send around a monthly e-letter crowing about their own body counts as a way to keep up their morale and public standing.
It’s times like these that call for Sartre’s “Hell is other people.”
September 30th, 2005 at 5:36 pmRandy,
You know, I’d go to either Canada or France, but I love America so much I feel compelled to stay and straighten out the f***ing mess you sh**head fascists made of the old lady.
You are aan enemy of America and a traitor to democracy. Bite me
September 30th, 2005 at 5:46 pmLet’s be clear about something…I don’t HATE bush. That would imply he has power over me. I loath his policies. I don’t like his views. But I am ruler of me. Got that randi? It’s OK if I call you randi, isn’t it? I mean, you like the big guy giving you the high hard one it seems. So randi it is.
Hate hurts the person doing the hating, not the one you hate. Haven’t you figured that out yet?
& I’m making more money because I’ve worked for the same company and have gotten raises every year. But with the economy since bush took over, they aren’t throwing the big coin at me, only the folks on the top. I’m in the middle.
Some people are just plain fools…randi, you’re one of ‘em.
September 30th, 2005 at 5:47 pmLooks like they don’t do body counts of Americans – but body counts of Iraqi men women and children are given because they’re all terrorists anyway, and it makes us look like we’re winning.
September 30th, 2005 at 5:57 pmAnd to Randy the Troll: It takes more courageous patriotism to stand up to fascists and defend American democratic principles than it does to pack up and leave. The take it or leave it approach is anathema to democratic government which you profess to pledge your allegiance. What you want is autocracy – your way or the highway.
“If you hate Bush so much, why don’t you move to Canada or France. â€
Why didn’t you move to right-wing El Salvador during the Clinton years?
At this point, I don’t hate Bush. I feel sorry for him. He got in way over his head because he listened to the smart-looking fat man. He’s a master politician, but seems to know very little about actual governance.
September 30th, 2005 at 6:17 pmRandy Baby! We stay because we want to see the Reperplicans walk and there are going to be plenty of them, all the way into the next decade!
September 30th, 2005 at 6:36 pmI was watching some political talk show today, and the age old topic came up about supporting the troops by leaving them in Iraq, or pulling them out.
Now I’m sure you know the argument by lunatic Republicans that to support the troops, we should NOT pull out American forces, and we should complete the mission in Iraq because to pull the troops out now would mean that those who died, will have died in vain.
So I thought about my response.
Lets think about this mission which may ‘be in vain’. If the mission the Republicans are talking about is the argument that Iraq had WMD so we had to go in there and take them away, than we already know the mission was in vain. We know there were no WMD in Iraq. It’s been proven time and again.
Republicans speak of the mission like it was the soldiers idea to get up and go to Iraq, without the permission of the Generals, and the President. The truth is, soldiers went to Iraq because they were ordered to. It was an order by the President to the Army. So if the President orders the soldiers back home, they will just be following another order. There is no disrespect in that, there is no lack in support of the troops in that.
Of course a lot of soldiers wanted to go to Iraq themselves. But remember, that they were lied to. We were all lied to. Those soldiers wanted to go to Iraq based on a lie – a false threat to America because of WMD. Had the soldiers known the truth, I would be willing to bet that a vast majority of them would not have wanted to go.
I don’t understand why it’s considered supporting the troops to leave them in a country where they have a greater chance to die. I don’t understand why it’s considered supporting the troops if we leave them there even when we learned that there were no WMD.
I would think that the almost 2,000 soldiers who have already died in Iraq and Afghanistan are screaming from their graves, “get my fellow soldiers out of there! I don’t want them dying like I did! There is no reason for them to die right now! Pull them out!”
So I ask again, isn’t trying to bring the troops home alive, a form of support? Isn’t admitting that what you’ve done wrong so you can try to fix it, a form of support? Denying the painfully obvious fact that how we are going about things is all wrong, is not a way of supporting our troops.
We do need to bring the troops home, and we need to start right now, because there is plenty of people now in the Gulf who need help. There are many REAL threats we need to get ready for.
Aren’t the job of soldiers to go to war only when it is absolutely necessary? Now that we realize there are no WMDs, and Saddam is on trail, is it really absolutely necessary to be there? I don’t think so.
And there are plenty of mothers fathers, sisters, brothers, husbands, and wives who I think would love to see their family members home, and alive – regardless of if they completed a mission or not.
September 30th, 2005 at 6:36 pmHere is a good question:
Do they count the suicide bombers in their “We killed them” numbers?
Because we ain’t be killin’ those guys, hence the whole suicide bomber thingy.
September 30th, 2005 at 6:37 pmSpudge, you need to be at the next Pentagon briefing with that one…that could keep me awake all night.
September 30th, 2005 at 6:38 pm#40, thoughtful stuff Dan. You must have been stuck in traffic behind one of those Hummers with a yellow magnet on. They come from China those things I think – the magnets, not the Hummers. Mine says ‘Tony Orlando and Dawn’.
The implicit statement in the car magnet seems to be: ‘I support our troops and you pinkos don’t’. ‘Us and them’, you are either with us or against us. Anyone who says that to me I automatically oppose on principle because that person is either a moral idiot or a fascist.
September 30th, 2005 at 6:58 pmThe body count figure that’s not being discussed is the number of soldiers who would have been fatalities were it not for unprecedented medical care in the field. This war has a disproportionate number of amputees to fatalities in my opinion.
September 30th, 2005 at 7:01 pmAs a side note I’ll bet Bush privately regrets this war.
The Department of Homeland Security is a domestic spy agency. No more. No less.
September 30th, 2005 at 7:06 pmThe only thing yellow ribbon magnets say is:
“I support the war, but not enough to put a bumper sticker on my car. Because as soon as this war is over, I am taking that magnet off.”
What they don’t realize is that, as Rice has made clear, this is a war that will last for decades. I believe she used the term “generational.” A generation is roughly 20 years.
September 30th, 2005 at 7:07 pm“The implicit statement in the car magnet seems to be: ‘I support our troops and you pinkos don’t’. ‘Us and them’, you are either with us or against us. Anyone who says that to me I automatically oppose on principle because that person is either a moral idiot or a fascist.”
I know this is uber-silly, but everytime I hear a neocon saying that, I picture Obi-Wan Kenobi shouting “Only a Sith deals in absolutes!” and drawing his saber to save democracy.
September 30th, 2005 at 7:25 pmRPin, I’ve not seen the last of the SW six. It appears full of those kinds of references, maybe I should see it sometime.
September 30th, 2005 at 8:04 pm#40 Nice post, Daniel. Makes sense to me!
September 30th, 2005 at 8:23 pm#43 My bumper sticker says “If you voted for Bush, a yellow ribbon won’t make up for it.”
September 30th, 2005 at 8:27 pmGood post Daniel, I agree. Maria where did you get your bumper sticker,? I want one..Thank’s……Blessings
September 30th, 2005 at 8:32 pmSharon, I think it was the Cafe Press on line.
September 30th, 2005 at 10:42 pmThank’s Marie, will check it out. Wanted to find a great big No more Bush war to cover the tail gate of my old pick up. Only leave the resort once a week to go shopping but there is lots of visators that drive through that could see it. My neighbor is a fradie cat and said “oh you don’t want to do that, someone might do some damage to it.” Bet me, this old 68 pick up and I can manage some more scratches and dents. Ha Ha! So much fear people have…Thank’s again…..Blessings
October 1st, 2005 at 2:42 amNOTE:
October 1st, 2005 at 8:14 amSaturday’s Washington Post reports that an elevated level of tularemia bacteria was found in the air near the Capitol on the day of the Peach March last Saturday. They are saying it’s probably nothing to be concerned about, but the electronic sensors picked it up. Curious that it would have occurred on 9/24 isn’t it?
I have a hard time driving into Staten Island because of all the yellow ribbon stickers I see. Of course, that’s died down a bit in recent months.
Not only do I find it hypocritical to slap a yellow ribbon on an SUV (and yes, most vehicles WERE SUV’s) but the majority of those ribbons are made in China – so it’s not even as if buying the ribbons support American workers. Trust me, I’ve gone on missions looking for ribbons. Everyone one I’ve seen has a ‘Made In China’ label. Even in online stores the majority are made in China – with a few exceptions.
But really, putting a yellow ribbon on your car is LITERALLY the least you can do. I borrow that line from Bill Mahr, but it’s absolutely true. Unless these people actually have a family member over there, putting a bumper sticker is not helping the soldiers at all.
Send a care package! Make a pen-pal! Those actions would certainly help. How about supporting the troops by keeping our promise to them about when we send them to war? That sounds like a good idea too.
I think the reason the yellow ribbons are fading, is because people are now seeing how asinine it is to have them. More people are becoming aware that a simple sticker is not helping anyone – and we ALL know that all Americans ’support the troops’.
Hey guess what? The Iraq insurgents can’t attack America from where they are. They are not a threat to America. And as much as the White House would want you to think, our ways are not exactly idolized by the rest of the world. Of course most of the world would want peace worldwide, but hardly anyone supports this war because they know we can’t change an entire society which has been this way for years and years and years.
Bush has been trying to patch up his image with Americans, but if he really wanted to patch up his image and gain peace and unity around the world, he’d be looking at what the majority of Americans AND the world want – an end to the world.
Bush could never tell me that he knows better than the rest of the world. He can not tell me that he knows about war and we don’t. He never went to war, neither did his cronies. He’s an alcoholic, and has a criminal record, and failed business record, and comes from a privileged family. There is NO WAY he can tell me that he knows what’s best for America and the world.
I’ll never believe that.
October 1st, 2005 at 9:26 am‘an end to the world’?? No! I ment an end to WAR!
…please ThinkProgress, can we get the option to edit our posts? I’m so embaressed. It was NOT a freudian slip I promise!
October 1st, 2005 at 9:28 amMaria # 54 post you mention elevated levels of telaremia. Sorry to sound so stupid, but, is that.?…..Blessings
October 1st, 2005 at 12:04 pmSharon, the Washington Post article today stated that electronic sensors (placed in 30 major cities) to detect biohazards indicated a rise in the level of tularemia bacteria, a biological hazard. It was airborne, and can affect people through inhalation; reactions can take a week. The CDC is informing hospitals nationally of this so that people who come in sick can be properly treated. Extreme cases result in death.
October 1st, 2005 at 12:27 pmAgain, back in the late 40’s and early 50’s, it was reported in the Wenatchee, Wash. paper in 1975 on a back page that our government had relesed some chemicals in the water supply in Hayward, Calif water. My husband at the time had lived there and was shocked when I read him the article. Said he could remember lots of people getting sick and babys and old folks dieing. Wonder how many other times this has happened. He said they called it a flu. Yah right. So this stuff has been released now by who.? Ha Ha! But not funny. Wonder if I can find this info somewhere. My paper didn’t have anything that I know of. So they are going to experament on us again, still. Guess the rolls of plastic and tape won’t matter much. Hay, trolls our leaders may ask us all to breath deep, are you ready.?…..Many Blessings
October 1st, 2005 at 5:31 pmSharon, that’s an interesting story — our own govt. has a record surreptitiously poisoning us. Other times, they simply neglect to tell the truth. Think back to NYC after 9/11 and they said the air was OK when it was horrible and first-responders are still sick.
October 1st, 2005 at 7:07 pmYou can read this latest episode on washingtonpost.com. Follow down the page to the “health” section. (see, it didn’t make the front page there either).
Maria, thanks for the response. Wow! It just keeps getting worse. We desperately need good changes. Thank’s for the info…..Blessings
October 1st, 2005 at 9:42 pmSharon, Marie’s right. I can’t give you specifics right off the top of my head, but there’s always been a history of our gov’t using our own soldiers for experimental purpose, (without their knowledge or consent.) And these are the ones we know about.
October 2nd, 2005 at 1:13 amDifferent people, differet ages, different genders,
different backgrounds, all subject groups, from anytown USA.
an end to the world’?? No! I ment an end to WAR!
…please ThinkProgress, can we get the option to edit our posts? I’m so embaressed. It was NOT a freudian slip I promise!
Comment by Daniel
Actually, you were right the first time. Those that would like to pull a Jimmah “Peanut” Carter and run away really are looking to end the world. It certainly won’t end the war. Jimmy “Peanut” is the one that started it by not flatting Iran when they violated US sovereignty by taking over our embassy. They think we’re cowards and you’re helping them think that. You are and all the other brave progressives are and you’re going to get us all killed. It’ll be the end of the world as you know it. Of course, that’s what Progressives really want. That’s why the Filthy Left must be destroyed.
October 2nd, 2005 at 12:46 pm#63 Were do you get off saying the Filthy Left must be destroyed. The Republican party is going down when we win in 2006. You are being destroyed as we speak.
October 2nd, 2005 at 3:39 pmBush and his cronies are a bunch of liars. We need to bring our troops home.
The fact is that body count DOES matter. The whole point of warfare is to kill the enemy; it’s not just incidental. The mistake in Vietnam was making the body count the ONLY thing that mattered. The Bush admin wants to have it both ways. On the one hand, they don’t want to get into the trap that occurred in Vietnam where excessive interest in body count forced soldiers in the field to exaggerate. But ultimately the real reason for publicly ignoring the body count is to avoid enraging the world, particularly the Muslim world, by disclosing casualty figures (don’t forget all those civilians killed) when they would prefer to emphasize more positive measures of success. On the other hand, now that we can all see that there are few positive measures of success in this war (other than fabricated ones), the Pentagon is now resorting to the body count as proof of success. Hypocrisy perhaps, failure definitely.
October 3rd, 2005 at 1:08 pmHating Bush is so lame. Did you forget this is America. Does noone remember the checks and balances system. Bush is responsible for nothing, the government is responsible. I think it is time for America to stop voting Republican and Democrat and start trying to get a third party. At least vote for a party that shares your ideals. Don’t vote Democrat so a Republican won’t be elected. Vote Libertarian, not Republican. Let’s get rid of the two party system.
November 25th, 2005 at 9:36 pm