Why Wilson Was Smeared
Why Wilson Was Smeared
Many on the right claim that the Bush administration launched a smear campaign against Joe Wilson because his claims were false and they needed to set the record straight. The opposite is true. Wilson’s core conclusion – that intelligence “was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat†– was correct.
The truth is Joe Wilson was smeared for a reason much larger than himself. Wilson was smeared because the administration knew if whistle-blowers were able to speak freely, their justification for war would fall apart.
Their fears were well-founded. Wilson put into motion a series of events that were not only politically damaging but began to expose how the nation was misled into war. In the days immediately following Wilson’s op-ed:
- Bush officials admitted their intelligence on uranium was a lie
- Congress was calling for an investigation
- the intelligence on the aluminum tubes (the other half of the nuclear argument) was falling apart
- the nation’s leading newspapers and television shows were headlining the story that the Bush administration had misled us into war
Think Progress has chronicled the two weeks following the release of Joe Wilson’s op-ed that demonstrate why his claims represented such a threat to the administration. Read our report here.
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Good work again guys. This is an awesome doc.
October 24th, 2005 at 11:23 amSmearing is the Bushies favorite pasttime
October 24th, 2005 at 11:29 amWell done. This story could be the historical event that ushers in the demise of organizations like MSNBC, FOX, NBC, ABC, and CBS. They will either try to ignore it (like an elephant in the room) or try to defend and protect Bush. Either way, they will finally lose whatever ounce of credibility they have left.
October 24th, 2005 at 11:29 amThese evildoer whistle-blowers are jealous of our way of life and threat to our democracy!
October 24th, 2005 at 11:35 amI’m sure this has been said before, but if Fitzgerald ran for president today, I would vote for him. This guy is a machine - http://news.yahoo.com/ s/ nm/ 20051024/ pl_nm/ bush_leak_prosecutor_dc
October 24th, 2005 at 11:39 amThe Plame Affair shows that President Bush, the preeminent practitioner of the Politics of Payback, was concerned not about treason and threats to American national security in his own White House, but only about political embarrassment. Cross George W. Bush on his Iraq policy, the White House made clear, and there would be hell to pay.
As it turns out, the real message of the Bush White House all along was just “don’t cross George W. Bush.” The war on Joseph Wilson was not the exception to the riule, but the rule itself. Bush’s Politics of Payback has a large body count, with casualties across virtually every area of policy. To cite just a few instances…
For the full story, see:
“Blowback: Bush, Plame and the Politics of Payback.”
October 24th, 2005 at 12:03 pmThis is why we should be concerned. Not that the GOP has disciplined talking points, but WE DO NOT! The only coherent response came from Dean, and he was off the cuff. For the love of Pete, hammer the “GOP culture of corruption” charge! Every one of the Dems should have the same talking point, there should be no variation just repetition. Amazing this fundamental lesson is still not retained.
Also, where is our promised codified platform? Now is the time to use such a wall to bash the corruption charge against! Perhaps, we should start thinking about starting over with our party. Vote the existing power structure out and start over with those in the mold of Hackett.
October 24th, 2005 at 12:09 pmThis is the Bush’s administration’s Gleiwitz moment. Wait till the other shoe drops that they manufactured the evidence.
October 24th, 2005 at 12:09 pm“Bush officials admitted their intelligence on uranium was a lie”
No, they admitted no such thing. They never admit to lies. They did, however, say that it was inaccurate.
I may be wrong, but we know these guys. They never admit to anything.
October 24th, 2005 at 12:11 pm“Many on the right claim that the Bush administration launched a smear campaign against Joe Wilson because his claims were false and they needed to set the record straight.”
Really, is a smear campaign the best way to get at what you believe to be the truth?
October 24th, 2005 at 12:13 pmFrom the WSJ today:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/ editorial/ feature.html?id=110007447
October 24th, 2005 at 12:42 pmOf COURSE Wilson told the truth. Had he not, the rethugs would have attacked the SUBSTANCE of what he wrote, instead of the MAN.
When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts.
When you have the law on your side, argue the law.
When you have neither, attack your opponent.
October 24th, 2005 at 12:51 pmThis is why we should be concerned. Not that the GOP has disciplined talking points, but WE DO NOT! The only coherent response came from Dean, and he was off the cuff. For the love of Pete, hammer the “GOP culture of corruption†charge! Every one of the Dems should have the same talking point, there should be no variation just repetition. Amazing this fundamental lesson is still not retained.
The Democrats will never march in lockstep the way the Republicans do. For one thing, where their community teaches and values obedience to authority, ours considers it a virtue to think for oneself. For another, our party is compromised by corporate and other big money types who have strong interests in keeping us from going too far to the left.
Perhaps, we should start thinking about starting over with our party. Vote the existing power structure out and start over with those in the mold of Hackett.
That’d be a neat trick if you could do it.
October 24th, 2005 at 1:04 pm# 8,
Waiting for the other shoe to drop as well, but it’s not that they manufactured evidence, that’s part of the shoe that’s currently under scrutiny. The other shoe is what Cheney and his boys knew about the attacks of 9/11 prior to the event.
October 24th, 2005 at 1:05 pmFor a complete colection of the latest PlameGate news, briefings, timelines, statutes and other essential documents, see:
“The Rove/PlameGate Scandal Resource Center.”
October 24th, 2005 at 1:13 pmAs usual, the crowd here has everything just about backwards. Wilson smeared the Bush administration, not the other way around. He is just a Dem. hack who got his wife to get the CIA to send him to Niger so he could make shit up and peddle it to the NYT.
“Mr. Wilson’s original claims about what he found on a CIA trip to Africa, what he told the CIA about it, and even why he was sent on the mission have since been discredited. What a bizarre irony it would be if what began as a politically motivated lie by Mr. Wilson nonetheless leads to indictments of Bush Administration officials for telling reporters the truth.” — WSJ today.
Ironic? Yes, and pathetic as well.
October 24th, 2005 at 1:17 pmCC
I see you are back. Feeling a bit more confident now that you talking points are written out for you?
The stench of GOP rot is now smelled across the country and all you do is quote the WSJ editorial page. Pathetic response and your depression is only going to get worse in the coming days.
October 24th, 2005 at 1:24 pmI am truly worried for you and others here, Citizen. I can’t imagine how you will be able to handle it when no indictments are handed out.
October 24th, 2005 at 1:29 pmThings to do :
October 24th, 2005 at 1:35 pm1) Print out #19 for future laugh.
CC you are one of the worls premiere idiots. Wait until the evidence shows that the African stuff was was made up by Hadley and others.
It is clear forgery, who forged it? Bushlandia of course. Who else gained by it? Not one single person, not one country, except for bushlandia.
Got it stupid?
October 24th, 2005 at 1:36 pmConcerned Conservative, why are you concerned? Conservatives have all the power. You should be just as pleased as punch and entirely unconcerned about where your exalted leaders are taking this country.
October 24th, 2005 at 1:37 pmPerhaps, we should start thinking about starting over with our party. Vote the existing power structure out and start over with those in the mold of Hackett.
That’d be a neat trick if you could do it.
Some of us had hoped that might be what was happening when Dean became DNC head… Either we were naive, or the process just needs to be given time. Or both, probably.
October 24th, 2005 at 1:39 pmCC is deluded and ignorant. Pity the fool. Too bad, because he used to give a good discussion - but when you have no leg to stand on, all you can do is hop pathetically from talking point to talking point.
October 24th, 2005 at 1:40 pmHow anyone can see all this evidence and still support Bushco is a wonder. CC, why do you hate America?
Concerned Conservative,
Shhhhh…..listen, can you hear that? No? Listen very closely…..can you hear it now? Why, let me help you:
It’s over. IT’S OVER!
No be a good dittohead and go back to your rock.
October 24th, 2005 at 1:47 pmSKdeA,
I’ll admit I am ignorant on some issues but this is not one of them. What is “all this evidence” you refer to? Here is the only relevant fact: Plame was not covert at the time of the leak. Fitsgerald knows this and that is why it is now coming down to false testimony charges. Same thing they nailed Clinton on. Now that’s ironic!
October 24th, 2005 at 1:48 pm#17…you been snorting the Koolaid?
My favorite piece is this: “Make shit up and peddle it to the NYT”. Seems like you confused Joe Wilson with Ahmed Chalabi.
I’ll tell you what is ironic… all the smearing against Wilson hasn’t gotten Rove and Libby in trouble. It’s the fact they told the (classified) truth about his wife that has landed them in hot water. That’s firstclass schadefreude for the party of family values.
Enjoy the BarFITZmah this week, CC. I’ll be crying a big f*cking crocodile tear for every indictment that comes down the pike.
October 24th, 2005 at 1:50 pmJay, put down your comic book and pay attention! It’s been over for the Dem. party for the last 5 years. Now you’ve got Howard the screamer leading the charge and it’s only getting worse!
October 24th, 2005 at 1:51 pmcc - you’re a republican shill. Not only do you have YOUR FACTS completely wrong, Wilson’s report was shown to be true, so you acting like his motivation was a factor doesn’t matter.
If you want to talk to us, do so, but don’t come off like the TROLL you are acting like. It just isn’t nice.
October 24th, 2005 at 1:52 pmCC,
How about a modest wager. If there are indictements, you have to promise never to return to this blog. If there are none, I’ll never return.
What do you say?
October 24th, 2005 at 1:55 pmSome Ironic headlines I’d like to see:
Saddam Claims Turks Had WMD and links to Al Qaeda
He was only trying to protect the world when he gassed them.
October 24th, 2005 at 2:00 pmCC Old Bushie and his admin are going down, down, down!!!!!! The ironic is Old Bushie lied. The Republicans tried to get Clinton for eight years. Now it is our turn to get Bush for going into an illegal war. He only went into Iraq for OIL and to make his corporte pals richer.
October 24th, 2005 at 2:00 pmIt was one lie after another. You Republican are all brainwashed. Bushie is a dictator. We need to take our America back.
#23,
Unfortunately Dean was roundly silenced by some of the old gaurd; Biden, Liberman, et.al., for his comment that most republicans had never had an honest job. He’s been under the lash since then, so I don’t think that he will be able to have the impact that we were all looking for when he took the leadership roll at the DNC. There are centrists in the DNC; Biden, Liberman. et.al. that should be targeted for replacement in future elections. TP had a great link a number of months ago regarding democrats who towed the party line and those who voted with the republiCANTs.
I too have been very disappointed in the democratic response to issues recently. There appears to be a lack of go for the throat menality, yet the republician juggernaut seems to be imploding quite well without democratic help. I also agree with Gary’s points in #14, we have not and do not come to one point of view as the republiCANTs. My fear is that the left will be further sold out with the new DNC platform. I’m sure it will be tuned for the middle-of-the-road to capture all the disenchanted republiCANTs and other moderates, its all about votes.
October 24th, 2005 at 2:02 pmGary
“The Democrats will never march in lockstep the way the Republicans do.”
I agree that we will not have the blind discipline the GOP does. However, we must have a moderate amount of message discipline.
“For one thing, where their community teaches and values obedience to authority, ours considers it a virtue to think for oneself. For another, our party is compromised by corporate and other big money types who have strong interests in keeping us from going too far to the left.”
Both of these points I totally agree with you. But that does not negate the need for change.
“That’d be a neat trick if you could do it.”
October 24th, 2005 at 2:15 pmThis is indeed the power ball question. But we must do it. I propose lopping off some DINO heads and put them on pikes for all to see. Fear is a great motivator!
Jay, I’ll make the bet on these conditions:
1. the indictments have to be on either Rove or Libby
2. the indictments have to be for leaking Plame’s identity
Deal?
CC
October 24th, 2005 at 2:28 pmBut CC, you said:
“I am truly worried for you and others here, Citizen. I can’t imagine how you will be able to handle it when no indictments are handed out.”
So, you’d like to edit that comment now? I mean, I’m ok with that but I just want to be clear. My wager offer was based on your comment that “no indictments” would be handed out. Do you also believe that perjury and obstruction of justice are “tecnicalities”?
October 24th, 2005 at 2:33 pmCC according to post #35 you believe there will be indictments, just not for leaking Plame’s name? Good to know. And you also believe that Rove and Libby will skate? That is odd.
October 24th, 2005 at 2:46 pmFitzgerald needs 12 of 23 grand jurors to indict. Over 18 of which are African American :) http://catciao.blogspot.com
October 24th, 2005 at 2:47 pmSo what are you implying catciao? That people of color can’t approach a subject without bringing their own race card into it?
That was sarcasm. No need to reply. I do know what you meant. But I truly did mean what I said.
October 24th, 2005 at 3:02 pmCC,
Clearly you missed the last set of polls. There’s a 9% spread of american voters who want the democrats to control congress versus those who want republicans. Not to mention this week that the GAO came out with a report on the insecure and fraudulent issues with electronic voting machines. If diebold and a hand full of other voting machines hadn’t stolen the 2004 election, you’d be on the site bitching about Kerry.
So before you accuse others of reading from the comics, perhaps you should join the REAL WORLD and look at the failed and crooked kleptocracy that you’re still foolish enough to defend! You’re a MORON!
October 24th, 2005 at 3:02 pmConcerned Conservative, instead of being such a fool, why don’t you follow the link the kind folks of this site provided and reeducate yourself. Clearly you’ve overdosed on smears, spam and lies - cleanse your system with some truths for a change.
http://thinkprogress.org/smear-explained/
October 24th, 2005 at 3:08 pmThe whole right wing smear is also debunked here as well:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/7/13/93855/0369
I’m always amazed at how stupid and easily duped rightwing morons like CC are. They don’t bother fact checking, and simply accept the radical statements of some rightwing propagandist moron out of hand. CC, you’re retarded!
October 24th, 2005 at 3:12 pmI just really cannot comprehend how anybody could allow another person to think for them or speak for them. It just doesn’t make sense.
I guess I just wouldn’t make a good republican.
October 24th, 2005 at 3:20 pmRyan, I did read the links and I’m trying to find what the “smear” on Wilson was. Claiming that his report was wrong is not really a smear — it’s an opinion.
And by the way, I may be brainwashed and ignorant but I’m not retarded!
October 24th, 2005 at 3:27 pm#7 Citizen. I believe you are right. I repeatedly write to my representatives and to the Dem. orgs. telling them that to avail themselves of the imploding Repubs. Dean said yesterday on TV that he is slowly gathering everyone from around the nation, but that it takes time. That may be so, but the time to strike is now. Dems must be relentless with attacks on the Repubs.
October 24th, 2005 at 3:28 pmyea, and “i’ve always been crazy but it keeps me from goin’ insane”
October 24th, 2005 at 3:30 pmOh, and Ryan, you say you’re “always amazed” at how stupid we are. Shouldn’t you have caught on to us by now — or are you that slow on the uptake?
October 24th, 2005 at 3:30 pmSpudge, you couldn’t be a Republican…none of us could. It requires supressing your freedom to think independently, to do what you think is right even if the rest of your group doesn’t agree. Republicans yield to authority, they take orders and have difficulty thinking for themselves. It’s just another of the many aspects of fascism/Nazism that comes to mind when we talk about today’s GOP.
What’s wrong CC, it’s been an hour since I posted #33. You don’t want to play anymore :(
October 24th, 2005 at 3:31 pm“Ryan, I did read the links and I’m trying to find what the “smear†on Wilson was. Claiming that his report was wrong is not really a smear — it’s an opinion.”
Opinion not backed up by facts - the facts say something different. When the evidence and facts contract your opinion - it means you’re retarded. Not only has wilson’s claim that the niger document was fake been PROVEN, but his statements have been in fact verified by the 9/11 report. The republicans did their best to obfuscate this - but the truth is there - and if you can read you’ll find it. Clearly you can’t, so maybe you should retain your ‘opinions’, since the truth is clearly too much for someone who’s retarded to handle.
“And by the way, I may be brainwashed and ignorant but I’m not retarded! ”
The evidence is so far producing a different ‘opinion’ from everyone here.
October 24th, 2005 at 3:33 pmSorry it was #36.
October 24th, 2005 at 3:33 pmNice chronological report, TP.
October 24th, 2005 at 3:33 pm“Oh, and Ryan, you say you’re “always amazed†at how stupid we are. Shouldn’t you have caught on to us by now — or are you that slow on the uptake?
Comment by Concerned Conservative”
Hehehe, one would think. I guess I have a soft spot for my fellow americans, even the retarded republican ones. I always hope you’ll learn something - but your capacity for foolishness and retarded actions is quite impressive.
October 24th, 2005 at 3:36 pmOh, and Ryan, you say you’re “always amazed†at how stupid we are. Shouldn’t you have caught on to us by now — or are you that slow on the uptake?
Or maybe it’s because you keep managing to outdo yourselves.
October 24th, 2005 at 3:36 pmcc #43 - you must have no idea just how STUPID your comment was…let me tell you, ok…”retarded” people cannot help that they have brain damage; “brainwashed and ignorant” people, on the other hand, are that way because of choice, because they want to stay uneducated, because they are weak…too bad you seem to be proud of that - but don’t insult those less fortunate and unable to learn…ignorance is NOT bliss, in this case…
October 24th, 2005 at 3:37 pmCC,
retarded: to slow up especially by preventing or hindering advance or accomplishment
You’re definitely retarded.
October 24th, 2005 at 3:37 pmAll of these good ‘christians’ come here with their ‘faith’ in the administration - and yet christian teaching tells them specifically that they’re fools.
“Faith without works is dead.”(JAMES 2:14-26).
This statement has a double meaning. Not only does it mean that those who have faith should ‘act’ on the faith, but it also means that if there is no evidence to back up the faith - then it’s false. The problem is that ‘blind faith’ is ‘dead faith’ - and this holds true whether you’re discussing creationism or politics. Christians never seem to learn the actual meaning of faith - and instead become ‘dead’ in the head.
October 24th, 2005 at 3:40 pmWhat is laughable about the winger argument that Wilson needed help from his wife to get the Niger gig (this was part of the “smear” by the way) is that the Cheney administration was looking to use the uranium from Niger argument and the “Iraq has nukes argument” as the foundation of their reason for invading. Why would they be so careless as to send someone that wasn’t qualified, had no credibility or was a hack that they weren’t all that familiar with? It would further expose that they were either extremely careless about how they went about making their case for war, of they’re lying. Which is it?
Of course we all know that Wilson was quite competent and experienced as a diplomat and in African affairs. He was EXACTLY the right guy for the job. And he did it well, the Cheney’s just weren’t happy with the results. Hence, they’re lying their asses off.
October 24th, 2005 at 3:41 pmJay, sorry for the delay — meeting.
My conditions on the bet stand. This whole thing was originally about the leaking of a covert identity. If there was perjury or obstruction during the investigation that is a different matter. Still serious but essentially tangential to the core matter.
October 24th, 2005 at 3:45 pmYou’re asking me to change the terms of the wager offer even though it was originally based on your claim of “no indictments” will be handed down.
How about this. I’ll leave it at Rove and Libby, but it doesn’t matter what they get indicted on. After all, if they get indicted, it doesn’t matter for what, they’ll have to leave their post. At the very least, that was the crux of your argument. So I’ll limit it to Rove and Libby but if either gets indicted for ANYTHING…..you go to. Deal?
October 24th, 2005 at 3:53 pmOK Jay. But since it’s a compromise deal, we only have to leave TP for 60 days if we lose.
October 24th, 2005 at 3:56 pm“If there was perjury or obstruction during the investigation that is a different matter. Still serious but essentially tangential to the core matter.
Comment by Concerned Conservative”
That’s not what you and your republican slime friends said with Clinton. You’re such a LOSER!
Why are you here again? You post slime. You post propaganda. You post LIES. Go away you retarded bumpkin!
October 24th, 2005 at 4:13 pmJay,
Why are you cutting any deals - you know this fool won’t honor his/her bet - republicans never do. He’ll pretend to go away, and post under another alias. They’re all lying propagandist immoral bastards. Just tell him to fvck off, and learn something instead of being the idiot he’s shown him/herself to be!
October 24th, 2005 at 4:14 pmUnconcernedMoron,
Here’s one of the unspins of the smear campaign you seem so intent on spreading. RETARDED MORON!
“Wilson did not claim that the vice president sent him to Niger; rather, Wilson stated that the CIA sent him to Niger to answer the vice president’s office’s questions regarding the purported Iraq-Niger uranium deal. Claiming that Wilson stated or insinuated that Cheney’s office sent him to Niger lends false justification to the argument articulated by defenders of the Bush administration that, in outing Plame, administration officials were merely setting the record straight by disclosing that Plame — not Cheney — had authorized the trip.”
October 24th, 2005 at 4:20 pmYes, I post an alternative viewpoint Ryan. But that does not make me immoral or a liar. Or an idiot for that matter. Idiots are incapable of learning from others — kind of like you.
And if I lose the bet I will honor it.
October 24th, 2005 at 4:23 pm“Yes, I post an alternative viewpoint Ryan. ”
You do not, you post debunked lies. You’re an immoral bastard who prefers to live dishonorably through lies, deception and propaganda. You’re an idiot and and a traitor to american ideals.
” Idiots are incapable of learning from others — kind of like you.”
I’m quite capable of learning from others, how do you think I know so much up dipshit. The difference between you and me is that I actually learn and INVESTIGATE, I don’t take some schmuck opinion from a rightwing rag at face value. You’re an IDIOT! You don’t have opinions, you have LIES!
October 24th, 2005 at 4:33 pm“Contrary to their allegation, Wilson clearly stated in the op-ed that “agency officials” had requested he travel to Niger. Further, in the CNN appearance, he stated it was “absolutely true” that Cheney was unaware he went on the trip.”
So UnconcernedLiar - where is your descrediting information on the WSJ? I’m happy to learn something, but an op-ed piece from a republican hitman is not ‘evidence’, it’s ‘conjecture’. Show me where Wilson’s claims were discredited - and I’ll be happy to learn. You CAN’T - and why? BECAUSE YOU’RE A LIAR!
October 24th, 2005 at 4:36 pmI smell desperation here with the trolls. *giggle* You guys have been found out and either you are in denial or just one of them and don’t mind criminals who play “fast and loose” with your tax dollars, your rights, and your country’s reputation. AntiAmerican that is.
October 24th, 2005 at 4:41 pm#28 - CC,
October 24th, 2005 at 4:55 pmUnfortunately, it’s been over for the good old USA for the last 5 years. What took over 200 years to build will be gone before W leaves office. I only hope that the terrorists do not use the Bushevik terrorist training and recruitment centers in Iraq to kill thousands, or, God forbid, millions of our fellow Americans when the vacuum develops.
Walt, I only wish that Bush and the Repubs had done more to dismantle the nanny state programs and huge federal beauracracies that have built up over the past 40 years. That’s the real crime.
October 24th, 2005 at 5:28 pmCC will never leave. Obviously s/e gets little attention elsewhere….so, any attention, even if it’s negative attention, is meaningful to CC. The worst thing we could do is ignore him/her.
October 24th, 2005 at 5:33 pmRyan,
I think this investigation is hugely important and in some regards its the last straw. If Fitzgerald can’t nail a few of these monkeys to the wall for their obvious crimes in taking us to war with Iraq ilegally, there is very little hope for our democracy (the one that is on life support). They’ve stolen the voting apparatus, and they own the media. If justice can’t be served with reams of evidence (that a regular guy with internet access and some curiousity can connect the dots on) and a supposedly incorruptible, just prosecutor investigating……what’s left? I think Bush is gonna limp to the finish line regardless, but truth and justie MUST prevail here and now. I’m trying to avoid sounding defeated, but let’s face it, this is it.
October 24th, 2005 at 5:33 pmThe nanny state’s been replaced by the ninny state. We’ll see how well you like it when the whole social contract breaks down.
CC, pining for the ‘good old days’, a time he never lived through and ones that were never particularly good. Idiot.
October 24th, 2005 at 5:37 pmCC,
You’re an ‘idiot’. What nanny state? We have the least supportive and most inept ‘nanny state’ of any modern democracy. You’re a babbling fool!
October 24th, 2005 at 5:41 pmConcerned Conservative,
I have been reading these comments for weeks now to get an idea of where the flaws in many arguments really stem from, no matter what side they may be on. The thing that finally got a reaction from me on this thread has to be the “nanny state”. I want you to seriously think about this… you obviously have a problem with gov’t funded social programs, but what about ‘corporate welfare’? Does that qualify as a nanny state program too?
October 24th, 2005 at 7:08 pmCC,
October 24th, 2005 at 7:20 pmBetter build your castle walls a little taller and your moat a bit deeper and wider cause all those nannyless children are coming ….for you!
In general, what is good for all, is good for you in the long run, but by the time you grasp that idea it will be much too late. I guess we all learn at different speeds.
BEEP! BEEP! the short bus is here to pick you up CC!(otherwise known as the tardcart)
#69, CC -
October 24th, 2005 at 8:26 pmThe USA is definately not a nanny state.
We have the highest health care cost in the world but rank 30th in health care performance and 51st in delivery.
Our privileged class ranks above royalty in every other country in the world and numbers in the hundreds of thousands.
Aid to those in need ranks below India and the Balkins.
Retirees have to supplement their pensions by packing bags and picking up carts at supermarkets because corporations have reneged on medical coverage.
Walt,
HERE HERE! I just posted some information related to this on the Fvcker carlson thread. We aren’t just the highest spending country, we are by a factor of 50+% over the next nearest country that has FULL HEALTH SERVICES FOR EVERY CITIZEN. What CC and other republican nitwits don’t realize is that corporations take an average of +30% in overhead and then you compare that to social security for instance that has less than 1% overhead. When profits are in the mix, it’s ALMOST ALWAYS more expensive. Only if the corporations can somehow innovate less expensive products does the cost of anything reduce, and hospitals in particular have such a high barrier to entry that these basic ‘competitive’ economic factors don’t come into play. But a rational understanding of any american issue whether it be healthcare, education, the environment or even foreign policy seems to be well beyond the grasp or capacity of the average republican that I’ve seen.
October 24th, 2005 at 8:57 pmRyan,
October 24th, 2005 at 9:38 pmWTF is the Fvcker carlson thread? Please excuse me, I’m an old man and would not understand URLs, servers, SQL statements and the such if I had not been involved in their development. By the bye, I am not working at a super market - (YET!).
Concerned Conservative,
I haven’t recieved a reply to my questions, but I would like to engage you in a discussion on the “nanny state” topic. I will offer you the same thing I offered The Northeast Dilemna, and honest exchange of ideas WITHOUT the pointless rhetoric, sarcasm, and insults. Lets do this! And if your willing to do this, I will also accept a topic of your choosing to discuss… same rules.
October 25th, 2005 at 1:55 pmAnyone else want to debate the ‘nanny state’ claims in place of the Concerned Conservative? Throw me a bone here! :)
October 25th, 2005 at 3:39 pmThis is very useful. I believe that the timeline omits some important prior events that add context. As I understand it, the original public assertion that the Niger documents were forged came from UN inspectors just prior to the start of the timeline. Also, I believe that the Niger claim was removed from one or more prior presidential speeches in fall 2002 at the insistence of CIA. In one instance, Tenet intervened directly with Hadley because the WHIG was ignoring CIA requests to remove the claim from presidential speeches. I believe that this information can be found in the Senate committee investigation report. But this is from memory…perhaps I have it wrong.
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March 24th, 2008 at 5:56 am