Sen. Daschle: REAL ID Is A Modern Day Poll Tax
Sen. Daschle: REAL ID Is A Modern Day Poll Tax
[UPDATE: Sen. Daschle responded to your comments earlier today. Here’s a photo of him blogging from ThinkProgress headquarters.]
Today we’re reminded of the life of Rosa Parks and her commitment to freedom and opportunity for all Americans. She inspired us with her actions, not just with her words. She reminds us with her life that only through action and commitment to the principles of our constitution will we succeed in fulfilling the aspirations of our nation’s founders.
Rosa Parks tried to register to vote for the first time in 1943. Because of onerous requirements, she was denied that basic constitutional right until her third try in 1945.
That is my test for any election reform – does is empower voters like this heroic woman? Or does it raise needless impediments to her voting?
I have been very concerned about the increasing calls for States to use the new REAL ID driver’s license for voter identification at the polls.
The Help America Vote Act (HAVA) already addresses the potential for fraudulent registration by individuals claiming to be someone they are not. I have not yet heard evidence that this reform is not working. Nor have I heard that the potential for fraud in voter registration or multiple voting will not be addressed once States fully implement the HAVA requirement for computerized, statewide registration lists.
REAL ID is a driver’s license, not a citizenship or a voting card. At this moment, 12% of the voting age population lacks a driver’s license – and you could expect that number to be much higher among the poor and others who have faced numerous challenges as they have tried to exercise their right to vote.
The documents required by REAL ID to secure a driver’s license include a birth certificate, passport or naturalization papers, a photo identity document, and proof of Social Security number.
Obtaining such documents can be difficult, even for those not displaced by the devastation of a hurricane.
For all these reasons, I have come to the conclusion that for some, a requirement for photo identification constitutes nothing short of a modern day poll tax.
– Tom Daschle
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107 Responses to “Sen. Daschle: REAL ID Is A Modern Day Poll Tax”
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I guess I’m a loner on this issue. I don’t have a problem with them asking to see my ID or Drivers License before letting me vote.
October 25th, 2005 at 10:53 amIt’s a program to avoid border security.
October 25th, 2005 at 10:55 amAllow me to lay out a contrast, Kindness. I think we should be able to vote with purple thumbs.
October 25th, 2005 at 10:57 amMOST people will vehemently disagree with you kindness.
Senator Daschle, what an honor to have you at Think Progress!
My question is that if we don’t require photo ID at the polls, what will we require? What are the alternatives to preventing fraud?
October 25th, 2005 at 11:01 amI just wanted to say, thank you Sen. Daschle for staying involved in the political process. As for requiring IDs to vote, a federal court recently made the right decision by barring Georgia from requiring photo ID at the polls. Efforts to institute poll taxes like this are part of a clear effort to make it more difficult for the poor and elderly to vote. Keep up the fine work!
October 25th, 2005 at 11:01 amAgain the trees are lost in the forest. What is the need for voter identification if the cotes are not counted correctly? The problems in the recent elections did not stem from improper voting due to lack of identification. The problems were caused by Republicans interfering with the process of counting the votes. Fix the vote counting problems then there is no need for an identification system. However, a system could be developed that would not include a charge for the ID for those who could not afford one but only after the vote counting process is perfected.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:10 amI’ve got no problem with showing proper ID at the polling place, it’s a perfectly legal and easy way of validating who you are….nothing sinister in that at all.
rich
October 25th, 2005 at 11:11 amYou see it as a “…clear effort to make it more difficult for the poor and elderly to vote.”
But most folks would see it as an effort to more difficult for frauds to vote.
Question - these elderly and poor - they NEVER have to cash a check? They NEVER have to show ID now?
Do they cry “Unfair Tax!!” if the Albertsons or Eckerds asks for ID before cashing a check / picking up a prescription?
October 25th, 2005 at 11:12 amWhen you pick up a prescription or cash a check, you are receiving goods. Not when you vote. The fraud is not the voters.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:18 amAGAIN, the fraud is not with the voters.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:19 amI have no problem with requiring an ID either. I think this is one of those issues that makes Liberals look a little silly.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:20 amOh the horror of it all! Imagine, we live in a country where they want to have an photo id? Do these people ever cash a check? Don’t most state DMV’s offer photo id’s if you want them for a nominal fee. I would be willing to pay for those who fell below a certain income level and if fee were to be a burden. Why would anyone be opposed to this? Unless, they were covering something up….hmm.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:21 am# 6 and # 10 - amen and amen!!! the fraud may be partially with the voters (let’s be honest here - it does happen) … but, I think the “black box voting” that we saw with Diebold in 2004 is FAR more susceptible to corruption than any fraud that would be cured by an ID card.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:23 amMr. Daschle, thank you for taking the time to listen to concerned citizens for this country. It is my hope that the Deomcratic party come together as one unified voice to denounce the injustice perpitrated by the Bush Administration for the Plame affair. It is important to point out that one of the main themes of this president was to “restore honor and dignity to the Whitehouse”. This crime of outting a CIA agent is not honorable or dignified by any scope of those words. We as Democrats must pull together to save our country from this Dictator in the Oval Office. Please remind this country that outting a CIA agent in a time of war is “treason” and not a mere technicality.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:23 amSenator Daschle, thank you for speaking out on this topic. Common Cause is very concerned about this issue. Do we think that IDs are necessary? Yes. Is it important to stop fraud? Absolutely! But an onerous and unfair photo ID requirement doesn’t solve the fraud problem. (If I recall, one of the Bush twins was caught in a Texas bar with a fake photo ID.) What it does do is create an unfair hurdle for elderly, urban, and poor voters (who are less likely to hold a driver’s license), discouraging them from voting. Many states allow voters to register with copies of utilities bills. A matching signature is a fine form of identification at the polls.
If we weigh the number of people who will be disenfranchised by the unfair photo ID regulations (potentially in the millions) against the number of cases of voter fraud (in the single digits in Ohio in the last election, for example), it is clear that the solution is much worse than the problem.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:24 amDo they cry “Unfair Tax!!†if the Albertsons or Eckerds asks for ID before cashing a check / picking up a prescription?
Since when do the poor in the USA get prescription medicine? What do you think this is, Canada?
October 25th, 2005 at 11:25 am#12 - please. spare us your histrionics. many senior citizens *don’t* cash checks - they’re SS and pension checks are deposited automatically. and many of them are too old/impaired to drive.
and there are some states (GA, to name one) who are making ID cards MORE expensive than regular drivers licenses, so that, in effect, IS a poll tax.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:25 am#16 - I’ve NEVER been asked for my ID to pick up a prescription …
October 25th, 2005 at 11:26 amClearly Sen. CreepyLoser is concerned with maintaining the edge Democrats enjoy in the Illegal Alien and The Dead demographic. From that perspective it just isn’t fair to the millions of potential voters crossing the border looking for Liberal Sugar and the millions of Dead looking to impact the government from beyond the grave to show that drivers license.
Poll tax indeed, there isn’t even a hint of honesty in the Democratic party anymore.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:27 amI’ll hand them my ID if they hand me a receipt.
All things being equal, I don’t think voter confirmation is the sticking point here, Kindness - it’s full and complete accesss to the electoral process. Personally, I think that Election day (a the very least for Presidential races) should be a national holiday.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:28 amFor the sake of those here who see no problem with presenting a driver’s lisence, perception is based on what your personal situation happens to be. Consider for a moment why this hasn’t been a requirement until now. How could we have held as many elections in this country up till now without this requirement?
It’s been pointed out that the issues from both the 2000 and 2004 elections had nothing to do with voters pretending they were someone else.
Acknowledgement of the fact that gaps exist in the current process is step one. Identifying the gaps is step two. Passing legislation to eliminate the gaps is step three.
The ID requirement is basically skipping step one and step two. This is government attempting to distract us, plain and simple.
If you’re concerned about the past few elections and what went wrong proceduraly, the absolute wrong thing to do now is somehow rationalize to yourself legislation that doesn’t directly address the problems.
Democrats need to focus on the first two steps and strike down any attempt to implement change that does not meet the simple criteria I presented above.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:29 am#16 - I’ve NEVER been asked for my ID to pick up a prescription …
Me neither, actually. All they ask for is my insurance card. Wonder if they’d let me vote based on that.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:29 amI-Right-I, back again! Are you back from the Recruiter’s office? When’s your enlistment date?
October 25th, 2005 at 11:30 amRandy, that is a lie. You would NEVER vote to raise taxes EVER. You would say CUT THE PORK. Be honest. You know this and your words are meaningless and merely babble to sound like a “good guy.” That is a big problem you “conservatives” have, you say all sorts of crap but your follow through is weak. You would never raise taxes no matter what.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:32 amIsn’t the REAL ID’s true purpose to make it harder for people of color - including Native Americans and immigrants - to vote? Why aren’t we calling this what it is - a blatant racist attack by Republicans who hope to eat away at the Democratic base?
October 25th, 2005 at 11:33 am#16 Gary, INDEED. The poor aren’t picking up shit.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:34 am#25 - no, the Real ID’s true purpose is to take a step towards a national ID … which would then be used to track our movements.
… “are your papers in order” …???
October 25th, 2005 at 11:35 amDo you think it’s easy to get to the DMV office if you don’t have a car? In Georgia, where one of the worst photo ID bills passed, there isn’t even a location in Atlanta where people can get the state-issued photo ID.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:35 amYou can not logically connect the privilege of driving with the privilege of voting or any other privilege, just as you can’t connect voting and land ownership, as in the past. Each is its own right, exclusive of other rights and dependent on obedience to its own set of laws.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:35 amBy the way, I don’t believe in denying felons or the imprisoned the right to vote with the exception of convicted murderers.
#28 - GAH. Atlanta has the WORST public transportation of any city I’ve ever lived in.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:38 amIrightI,
October 25th, 2005 at 11:38 amyou are an idiot, hatefull son of a b!tch.
And a coward, why are you not in in iraq
you piece of sh!t? You bastards win elections
through deciet and theft. stfu a-hole.
Sam (#4):
The laws on the books already are very clear about fraudulent voting. It’s more of a matter of enforcement than of writing new law. Secondly, if additional verification were necessary, I have no objection to certifying under the laws of perjury that you are who you say you are.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:39 amPoll tax indeed, there isn’t even a hint of honesty in the Democratic party anymore.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I
ohmygod … scrolling pays for the sheer entertainment value ALONE … I can’t believe I-R-I can even SAY that with a straight face while the entire White House is about to be indicted in perjury (at the very least) … lying comes as easy as breathing to W and his minions
October 25th, 2005 at 11:41 am#27 - How is a picture ID different than your SSN for tracking individuals?
#20 - I agree with that and Presidential elections should be national holidays. Many have suggested this and it should be. We all should be in favor of legal and verified voting. Whether it’s a picture ID or your electric bill having your name on it. Something reasonable.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:41 amKindness, Rich, Robert (#1, 7 and 11):
There is nothing wrong with requiring either some form of identification or an affidavit from an individual who has not identification. My problem is the inflexibility of demanding a driver’s license when 12% of the population don’t have them.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:43 amtomaig (#8):
I agree with tomaig with regards to the impracticality of overly restrictive ID requirements. In Oregon and perhaps other states soon, you have the ability to vote by mail. How does one present an ID if you are going to vote by mail? And if you do not have to present an ID in Oregon as you do so, how is it that other states should require something more stringent?
October 25th, 2005 at 11:46 am#34 - do you have to show your SSN when you go to an airport? do you have to show your SSN when you check into a hotel? right now, there are a LOT of disparate databases that can track us - REAL ID is a HUGE step to one NATIONAL ID, dumping us all into one national database.
that’s why most civil libertarians are against it.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:49 amMiss you on the Senate’s floor. Hope you are well.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:49 amClyde (#6):
Clyde, I share your concern about fraud in the system. All one has to do is look at the problems of Florida and Ohio to be concerned about future elections which are close. If we are to truly address ballot integrity then we should focus on system integrity not the occasional reported case of voter fraud. Such things as a paper trail, access to audit and far greater confidence in the tabulation of votes from machines ought to be the focus of our attention.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:49 amSen Daschle, is it your belief that there was extensive and/or intentional fraud in the type of equipment used in the 2004 Presidential election? If in your opinion there was, could you comment on its impact on the final results. Thank you.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:52 amMr. Daschle,
Currently Ohio has ballot measure 2 (part of the Reform Ohio Now package) up for voter’s approval in the the November election. Among other things, the issue provides for residents of the state to vote by mail or walk into a board of elections up to 35 days before the scheduled election to cast their vote. Obviously this amendment will have a significant impact on raising low income/inner city voter numbers if it is passed. However, allegations of possible voter fraud have been levied by the opposition should the amendment be passed. What are your thoughts on Ohio’s proposed amendment and it’s impact on low income voter turnout?
October 25th, 2005 at 11:52 amThank you for responding to comments Senator. Please excuse the right wing trolls on this thread. We usually lock them in the basement when we have company.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:52 amIn many respects the disability community has the most at stake in how we address these issues. In the past many of them have been disenfranchised because of their lack of access and because there was so little anyone could do at the local level to address it. As we consider election reform and greater access it is my hope that we prioritize the rights of the disabled so that they can be full fledged citizens in this democracy.
Unfortunately my time is up. Thank you for your comments. I hope we can do this again.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:53 amDamn Straight….this is a new way of control and to try and kill Democracy. Fascism 101.
October 25th, 2005 at 11:58 amJohn I am sure the Senator has heard nut jobs from both sides of the aisle. Again, everyone should be in favor of legal access and verification of reasonable means.
October 25th, 2005 at 12:00 pmInteresting Tom Daschle would say this considering all of the election fraud that took place in David Kranz’s South Dakota. Thank God John Thune put a stop to it and sent Daschle packing for good!!!
October 25th, 2005 at 12:17 pmWow, just watch threads build.
OK - I’m against Diebold. Clear? They need to print a confirmation of your choices. and be able to be checked later.
Affidavid for those that don’t drive? Fine. You can do that. I’m OK with flexibility. Being a member of the Uber-driving class I have a license. I figure others have ID cards because you need them.
But why discussions here frequently vere to crazy side debates about stupid stuff, I don’t know.
But I am somewhat concerned. I never figured i’d be agreeing with I-righty. Now that’s scary…
October 25th, 2005 at 12:20 pm“The documents required by REAL ID to secure a driver’s license include a birth certificate, passport or naturalization papers, a photo identity document, and proof of Social Security number.
Obtaining such documents can be difficult, even for those not displaced by the devastation of a hurricane.”
Or those in the country illegally.
Sen. Daschle, please consider renaming this the “Help Democrats Get Elected Through Voter Fraud” Act.
October 25th, 2005 at 12:32 pmNeD-
You’re very predictable- Talking Points first, disregard evidence to the contrary later :
“State Attorney General Mark Barnett, himself a Republican, said of the 50 affidavits the Republican operatives collected, only three alleged criminal activity, and two of those proved to be false. One person is still being sought for questioning.
He said some of the rest of the affidavits were signed with false signatures and others were based on routine questions that come up every election cycle.
Barnett said two of the affidavits were either forgery or perjury because they contained the same wording. “They are just flat false,” he said.”
But nice try, NeD. Anymore “untruths” you want to spew while you’re here? If not, run along to the recruiter’s office, Chickenhawk.
October 25th, 2005 at 12:33 pmKindness,
October 25th, 2005 at 12:34 pmI think you went off the road with alternative ID. The thread is about requiring drivers licences to vote and its resulting unfair hurdles(no matter how small to you)for 12% of the population.
#48 - Now that’s funny.
October 25th, 2005 at 12:35 pmThank you Mr. Daschle, we will see you again!
October 25th, 2005 at 12:36 pmI am glad to see that the Democrats are taking some slall self interest in voter suppression in America.
Now if the Democrats would look at the monster in the room, the Jim Crow drug war and its criminal disenfranchisement of millions of Americans. More disenfranchised nonconformist and minority Americans than made the difference in the 2000 and 2004 elections.
SEE: Why Democrats can no longer win the presidency at my LeftIndependent blog.
October 25th, 2005 at 12:40 pmCC, please cite any credible evidence that Democrats have ever used undocumented aliens to get elected. We’ll wait.
October 25th, 2005 at 12:41 pmOh, and NeD- by “Election Fraud”, would you be talking about the type of Fraud that led to two New Hampshire GOP leaders, Chuck McGee and Allen Raymond, to guilty pleas from a 2002 case?
Is that what you mean by your “dilemma”?
October 25th, 2005 at 12:41 pmCC & NED,
Considering you guys used Diebold to steal the last election, you would be the expert on election fraud. Or did you miss the GAO congressional report last week that CONFIRMED the issues and fraud with the voting machines? Guess you were too busy defending the indefensible.
October 25th, 2005 at 12:44 pmSomeone had mentioned it earlier so I said I was OK with other forms of ID. It seems to me it is easier to get an ID card than go through the hassles of getting some kind of affidavite but I was simply replying to others, not trying to veer off the road.
I’ll tell you what I do think they should do though. Copy France. They hold elections over the course of 2 days on weekends (ie - both Saturday and Sunday). There would be no excuses for voting then.
October 25th, 2005 at 12:44 pmLittle more info about this poor, fraudulent Republican:
In addition to prison time, Chuck McGee was fined $2000 and ordered to perform 200 hours of community service…….Before his sentence was read, an emotional McGee, said he was ashamed of what he did and apologized to the entire state of NH, both political parties, and even the prosecuting attorney.
Republican State Committee Chairman Warren Henderson issued a statement that McGee’s sentence showed that interfering with the electoral process cannot and will not be tolerated.” He added that the GOP will “continue to cooperate as the criminal process now nears conclusion.”
One of your buddies, NeD?
October 25th, 2005 at 12:45 pmDuh-oh! I mean NOT Voting…
October 25th, 2005 at 12:45 pm“Poll tax indeed, there isn’t even a hint of honesty in the Democratic party anymore.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I ”
Bahaha, how would you know? Every thing you post is a lie, a smear or a rascist slur. You are a giant lie, so to you MizzWrong, democratic truths must be incorporated into your psyche as a lie. You would be able to continue to live in your delusion if you did it any other way.
October 25th, 2005 at 12:45 pmUrban citizens, who simply do not need drivers licenses thanks to mass transit systems, will be disproportionately burdened by this bill.
But then most of the Jim Crow type laws disproportionately burden diverse urban communities more than they do rural socially and culturally homogenous communities.
October 25th, 2005 at 12:48 pmForgive me if I disagree with those who “can’t see the problem with showing photo ID”…
My step son is unemployed. He can barely pay his rent (we buy food for him frequently) and his phone bill with his unemployment check. He is looking for work, and has had numerous interviews… But no luck yet. He has no photo ID. Given that an ID card (he has an old one that is expired…) costs money then how is he going to show his ID card to vote? The REAL ID cards are probably going to be more expensive to pay for the changes and infrastructure… If he can’t afford one now, how will he afford one then?
A Drivers licence is NOT proof of anything other than your driving ability. I have a drivers licence. I am not a citizen. I am not entitled to vote. I am allowed to drive…
My drivers licence does not say anywhere on it that I am not a citizen, or that I am not entitled to vote. Perhaps if it did then I wouldn’t keep being called for Jury duty… Given that the electoral roll does not contain photos or driver licence numbers of people and that identity theft rings have been caught with blank licences, how is having people show their REAL ID going to help ensure that they are the person mentioned.
In the UK, polling seems to be more efficient than in the US…
You go to your local polling station, and they look your name up in the electoral roll. They then give you a ballot, and enter the ballot number in the record (in case you somehow voted twice they can pull your ballot out later, but the copy of the record is kept seperately and is not available to tie people to their polling records)… You then go into a polling booth and mark an X next to the candidate that you want to vote for. You fold the ballot and return to the polling station table where you place it into a locked ballot box. When the polls close the ballot box is taken to a counting station (usually a large hall somewhere) where it is opened up and the votes are counted by hand (twice if I remember correctly)… Then the results are announced (usually the same night, sometimes later… depending on recounts and the like).
Electronic voting would speed that up, but precautions HAVE to be taken to make it trustworthy. An Electronic voting machine should allow for all of the options the current system does (write-ins for example) and should print out a human readable ballot (not barcoded, just human readable so that there is no chance of the barcode being different from the human readable version). The voter should then check this, and deposit the printed form into a ballot box. The voter does not get any proof of how they voted to take away with them (so you can’t prove how you voted to sell your vote)… The ballot boxes are sealed and kept in case a recount is required. As the forms are printed, a simple optical mark reader should be able to count those fairly quickly.
The electronic count from each machine should be physically transferred (no networks, no modems) to the central office where they are read. The physical counts should be printed out in human readable form, and should also be written in a non-tamperable form to a read only media. This should only be possible once, before the machine has to be physically reset, and the machine should not be resettable by the polling station staff. The polling station staff should have a total of two actions they can perform. Start polling and stop polling. And these should both be one time only.
The software and hardware designs should all be open to public scrutiny, and any manufacturer should be allowed to make polling stations to meet those public hardware designs. No hardware should be allowed to be used until it has passed set tests and should all be using the same software.
Z.
October 25th, 2005 at 12:50 pmBut I am somewhat concerned. I never figured i’d be agreeing with I-righty. Now that’s scary…
Comment by kindness
You’re just being kind. No Donk worth his/her salt would be caught dead agreeing with me and there’s not one that doesn’t think Mexicans and dead people shouldn’t be allowed to vote Democratic if they want to.
October 25th, 2005 at 12:57 pmAccording to the New York Times editorial “Why Some Politicians Need Their Prisons to Stay Full”:
“The mandatory sentencing fad that swept the United States beginning in the 1970’s has had dramatic consequences - most of them bad. The prison population was driven up tenfold, creating a large and growing felon class - now 13 million strong - that remains locked out of the mainstream and prone to recidivism. Trailing behind the legions of felons are children who grow up visiting their parents behind bars and thinking prison life is perfectly normal. Meanwhile, the cost of building and running prisons has pushed many states near bankruptcy - and forced them to choose between building jails and schools.
(snip)
Felons are barred from voting in 48 of 50 states - including New York. Yet in New York, as in the rest of the country, disenfranchised prisoners are included in the population counts that become the basis for drawing legislative districts.
An eye-opening analysis by Prison Policy Initiative’s Peter Wagner found seven upstate New York Senate districts that meet minimal population requirements only because prison inmates are included in the count. New York is not alone. The group’s researchers have found 21 counties nationally where at least 21 percent of the “residents’ were inmates.
(snip)
The practice recalls the early United States under slavery, when slaves were barred from voting but counted as three-fifths of a person for purposes of apportioning representation in Congress.”
In Pennsylvania: Pennsylvania -democracy incarcerated- Of 36 state and federal prisons in Pennsylvania 9(25%) are in Democratic congressional districts while 27(75%) are in Republican districts. The distribution is similar in the state senate.
October 25th, 2005 at 12:58 pm#53, 54 and 55 — check out this example of Democrat sponsored non-citizen fraud in CA during the 2004 election:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/ news/ article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15082
October 25th, 2005 at 12:59 pmIn my honest opinion the problem isn’t with identification at all. The real problem with voting in this country is who is allowed to vote. Losers shouldn’t vote until they stop being losers. That means only American citizens who own real property should have a say. If you don’t own some land you’re out. People who have a conflict of interest shouldn’t be allowed to vote. That means if you work for the government, work for a company that receives any kind of government contract, receive any welfare,social security or government grant or other benefit…you don’t vote. Period. That leaves the government in the hands of people who work. The rest of you losers can get a job if you want in on the vote.
You may not know it but voting isn’t a right, like driving it’s a privilege and frankly too many of you losers have too many privileges already and I’m tired of paying for them.
October 25th, 2005 at 1:05 pmI-RIGHT-ON!
October 25th, 2005 at 1:10 pmCC-
WorldNet Daily? C’mon. Seriously.
I could get busy with a little Visio and put up a web page that says George W. Bush is an astronaut. (Of course, the problem with that is theat he would have to read the countdown off a que card).
Obscure, unproven & unverified anectodal evidence aside, both parties have shown themselves more than capable of bending / breaking rules.
IRI- if you believe that the only ones in power should be real property owners, you should try applying for citizenship in one of the gulf states- like Saudi Arabia.
Maybe you could swing by after your tour in Iraq?
October 25th, 2005 at 1:31 pmcheck out this example of Democrat sponsored non-citizen fraud in CA during the 2004 election:
Anecdotal and unverified evidence. Show proof that the attached card granted any voting rights, or that the person receiving the card actually voted. Printing out the words “voter identification card” on a page doesn’t mean it has any official status.
October 25th, 2005 at 1:32 pmI-WRONG-I, trolling tends to be more effective if you aren’t quite so obvious about it. Take a lesson from Concerned Chucklehead, who just blew his pretense of being “the reasonable one” by agreeing with this bit of nuttery.
October 25th, 2005 at 1:36 pmBy the way, CC and IRI; we all voted and we decided that you both are Unamerican AssClowns and your voting rights have been suspended indefinitely. We even showed our IDs when the votes were cast…even the dead guys.
October 25th, 2005 at 1:38 pm#64
“That means only American citizens who own real property should have a say.”
Are you serious? You can’t be serious. From now on I will read all of your posts as joke posts like Joe Sixpack’s posts, because there is no way you can be taken seriously after a statement like that.
October 25th, 2005 at 1:38 pmI-RIGHT-I thats pretty hilarious because almost noone owns any land in America. Find out what Allodial Title is and you will know what you do and do not own. I think a more accurate judge of who should be allowed to vote would be proof of knowledge in regards to the system of government they live under.
October 25th, 2005 at 1:40 pmI-RIGHT-I, in that case you and all of the CONservatives who voted for these crooks and criminals should lose your rights to vote. After all, you’re LOSERS. Your idea is subjective and fascist - kind of like when Germans removed the rights of Jews to vote. You are Hitlers daughter, and CC, you are clearly the ugly adopted stepchild.
You come up with a stupid and elaborate program that doesn’t seem to have any clear reason or basis. If you want to clean up government, simply remove corporate donations and make campaign financing public. It will be cheaper, and the elections will forced to be more populist.
October 25th, 2005 at 1:41 pmSpudge,
Wasn’t that the same proposal that was made after the Civil War, that republicans fought because they said it was unfair to the poor? In fact it was proposed by white supremacists. Anyone suprised that the resident white supremacist drag queen MizzWrong would propose it? I’m certainly not.
And CC, you just ‘here here’d the proposal of a white supremacist that would turn Lincoln in his grave. Wow, how far the republicans have sunk! You’re a shameful and pathetic lot!
October 25th, 2005 at 1:44 pmI would have no problem showing an ID to vote. Ever heard the saying, “vote early, vote often”? A photo ID would largely eliminate folks from going from poll to poll and voting numerous times. As for the elderly and the poor not being able to get to the polls… There are many, many organizations all over the country that rent or borrow vans or buses to go pick up these individuals and transport them to the polls for free. Does anyone remember the rental vans being vandalized in Ohio to be used to transport people to the polls?
I think that Election day (a the very least for Presidential races) should be a national holiday.
Comment by jparker
There is no reason to do this because polls are open as early as 5 AM and stay open as late as 7 PM. To make this a national holiday is overkill. I would not support any legislation such as this, but in the interest of compromise, how about a law that would allow employees to shorten their workday by 2 hours (either at the beginning or end of the day) so they can go vote?
The laws on the books already are very clear about fraudulent voting. It’s more of a matter of enforcement than of writing new law. Secondly, if additional verification were necessary, I have no objection to certifying under the laws of perjury that you are who you say you are.
Comment by Tom Daschle
With all due respect Mr. Daschle, how can one prove perjury (or identity) without an ID? Wouldn’t it be more efficient and fair to show an ID rather than prosecute perjury offenders? Not to mention the damage done by fraudulent voting. It would be cheaper for the government (be it state or fed) just to purchase the ID (which I adamantly oppose) for those who don’t have one vice prosecuting offenders.
October 25th, 2005 at 2:11 pmIRI said “That means only American citizens who own real property should have a say. If you don’t own some land you’re out. People who have a conflict of interest shouldn’t be allowed to vote. That means if you work for the government, work for a company that receives any kind of government contract, receive any welfare,social security or government grant or other benefit…you don’t vote. Period. That leaves the government in the hands of people who work. The rest of you losers can get a job if you want in on the vote.”
I’m NOT an American Citizen, so I guess that I can’t vote under your scheme… I have never lived on welfare, I own property, I pay taxes… I’m almost a perfect example of someone that you would let vote… Except for the minor bit about working for the government or any company that receives money from the government. I used to work for Lockheed Martin (running computers for Nike) so that would have excluded me, now I work for a healthcare organisation… We receive money from the government in the form of Medicare payments… Given that if people didn’t recieve some benefit from having a government they probably would have abolished the idea your suggestion would, taken to the logical conclusion, stop anyone from voting. In fact Non-Citizens would be the least interested people, so really we should let the citizens of another country choose our politicians… Yeah, THAT makes sense.
Given that government should provide some sort of benefit it makes sense that EVERYONE should vote, and everyone should be encouraged to vote.
Z.
October 25th, 2005 at 2:29 pmIDs are a red herring. After all, if this were a problem, then absentee ballots are MORE of a problem. But since republicans tend to vote more with absentee ballots than democrats do, you never hear them whine about how with absentee ballots NO id is required. It’s just lunacy and hypocrisy as is always the case when Republican fraud is involved.
October 25th, 2005 at 2:49 pmAnd for bigots and hate mongers like Stubain, we’re the ONLY civilized nation that does not let people who’ve served their criminal sentences to vote. The premise of prison is that the person pays their price for criminal acts, but the reason they are released into society is that their sentence is done and their crime is paid for. If they are allowed to work, and pay taxes, they should be allowed to vote. Otherwise it is taxation without representation. The right to have representation for the taxes on pays is in fact was one of the DEFINING principles that underpins our government and constitution. The current law is an obscenity - and even republicans have recently spoken out against it (Jack Kemp recently stated this)!
The reality is that those who wish to strip americans of their constitutional rights for frivolous or even silly reasons are just fascist idiots - you know who you are!
October 25th, 2005 at 2:54 pmSpeaking of assclowns….
From Drudge:
VIDEO SKIT: Al Franken kicks ‘conservative reader’ in groin, smashes stool over his back, and grins as another man cracks bottle over the conservative’s head…
UPDATE: Al Franken Goes On NBC’s TODAY SHOW: “I Think Rove And Libby Will Be Executedâ€â€¦…
And you wonder why 60% of America thinks you suck.
October 25th, 2005 at 3:03 pmIRI- if you believe that the only ones in power should be real property owners, you should try applying for citizenship in one of the gulf states- like Saudi Arabia.
Maybe you could swing by after your tour in Iraq?
Comment by jparker
I guess you’re forgetting that the Founders set it up that way at the start. But OK…I’d settle for just repealing the amendment that gave women the vote. That alone would instantaneously solve most of the problems we have with elected officials. But just imagine what would happen if you disenfranchised all the losers and all the women? Who would the pathetic panderers depend on to keep them in office? They’d have to face the music of real men who won’t hold still for special rights for queers and minorities. They wouldn’t hold still for the terrible public schools or throwing billions down the shit hole to help Africans who have AIDS. No more NPR,no more UN, no more ACLU!!!! NO MORE LOSERS LIKE PELOSI, CLINTON, AND THOSE IDIOT NEGRO WOMEN CONGRESSMEN with an IQ on par with chimpanzees.
Sigh….this would be a great place to live again.
October 25th, 2005 at 3:12 pmSigh….this would be a great place to live again.
Sadly, medical scientists haven’t yet figured out a way to bring the dead back to life. And if they had, I very much hope they wouldn’t waste it on you.
Now please go away. Grown-ups are talking here.
October 25th, 2005 at 3:18 pmMizzWrong is so clinically insane in her postings, it often comes across as satire. If she hadn’t made death threats previously, I might believe she was trying to provoke republicans into realizing they’re all hateful moronic bigots. But as CC clearly demostrates, they never see the truth - even when it’s right in front of them.
Gary, The problem with MizzWrong is she’s clinically insane, but she believes the APA is full of liberal secular jews, so she won’t get treatment for her disorder…
October 25th, 2005 at 3:23 pm“UPDATE: Al Franken Goes On NBC’s TODAY SHOW: “I Think Rove And Libby Will Be Executedâ€â€¦â€¦
And you wonder why 60% of America thinks you suck.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I ”
Bahaha, where did you pull that stat from? Did it come out of your ass along with the dildo this morning?
The latest polls show 65% of americans DISAGREE WITH REPUBLICAN POLICIES. You are a delusional moron!
Not to mention the fact that franken was ‘cracking a joke’ - there’s a reason comedy is typically done by liberals. Not only does it require you be ‘funny’ and ‘have a sense of humor’, but those without a sense of humor are generally clinically insane (that would be you). Your idea of humor is to PERSONALLY threaten to kill someone (as you’ve done on this site) - and you criticize others? YOU’RE TRULY NUTS!
October 25th, 2005 at 3:26 pmSadly, medical scientists haven’t yet figured out a way to bring the dead back to life. And if they had, I very much hope they wouldn’t waste it on you.
Now please go away. Grown-ups are talking here.
Comment by Gary Kleppe
Well Gary, you’re a Walking Dead Loser and you seem to be fairly verbal. But the fact that someone is a Walking Dead Loser or just plain dead hasn’t stopped them from voting for a Democrat, it happens every election. By the way…I got your grown-up hanging.
October 25th, 2005 at 3:29 pmIDs are a red herring. After all, if this were a problem, then absentee ballots are MORE of a problem. But since republicans tend to vote more with absentee ballots than democrats do, you never hear them whine about how with absentee ballots NO id is required. It’s just lunacy and hypocrisy as is always the case when Republican fraud is involved.
Comment by Ryan Neat
Ryan,
See, I told you we agree on more things than you think… As for absentee ballots, I agree with Ryan. Why not make the person requesting an absentee ballot to produce a photo ID to the issuing party and ensure name and address is on the absentee ballot after ID verification? Perhaps at a city hall or local election board or some other authority, who can verify identity, not just get one through the mail. If they want an absentee ballot because they can’t get to the polls, perhaps a health care provider or postal service employee could verify identity. If they want an absentee ballot because they are going to be out of the area (country) for whatever reason, they would have to either get their absentee ballot before leaving the area (US), or go to an embassy if out of the country.
The premise of prison is that the person pays their price for criminal acts, but the reason they are released into society is that their sentence is done and their crime is paid for.
Comment by Ryan Neat
So can we assume you oppose a sex offender registry? (This should be good)
October 25th, 2005 at 4:18 pmMy bad, folks. I forgot to put quotes around what Ryan wrote. Sorry.
October 25th, 2005 at 4:29 pmDon’t absentee ballots need to be notarized? That would mean someone already is checking IDs.
October 25th, 2005 at 4:40 pmSo, given that Oregon does ALL of it’s voting by mail, why does what works in Oregon not work anywhere else?
The only news mention of Voter Fraud in Oregon that I can find is to do with a register to vote organisation that allegedly threw away democratic registrations.
Z.
October 25th, 2005 at 4:43 pmstubain,
Given that a sex offender has served their sentence, and has been released then yes I disagree with a “sex offender” registry. If someone can’t be trusted back in society then they shouldn’t be released. Prison should be used to help rehabilitate offenders, and not just to punish them.
If everyone who was released from prison was a productive member of society, wouldn’t you prefer that sort of society?
Z.
October 25th, 2005 at 4:46 pm“The premise of prison is that the person pays their price for criminal acts, but the reason they are released into society is that their sentence is done and their crime is paid for.
Comment by Ryan Neat
So can we assume you oppose a sex offender registry? (This should be good)
Comment by stubain”
How is that related again? Oh wait, it isn’t. You seem to lack the capacity to stay on topic. I could talk about your question, but frankly it’s off topic and I’m not interested in straying from voter rights - unlike you who prefers to kitchen sink like a pissed off dysfunctional girlfriend.
The point is that a person who commits a felon offense is denied the right to vote, and they are not allowed to vote.
October 25th, 2005 at 5:16 pmDown here in Mexico you have to have a picture ID to vote and it has worked well.
It does not cost you anything and you are automatically put on the voting rolls forever, and no one can take you off.
October 25th, 2005 at 5:28 pm“Don’t absentee ballots need to be notarized? That would mean someone already is checking IDs.”
Comment by Gary Kleppe
Ryan, I will let you field this one… I can’t have all the fun.
I am not too familiar with the nuts and bolts of how Oregon handles this sort of business, I will have to do some digging and get back to you.
“Given that a sex offender has served their sentence, and has been released then yes I disagree with a “sex offender†registry. If someone can’t be trusted back in society then they shouldn’t be released. Prison should be used to help rehabilitate offenders, and not just to punish them.”
Comment by Zwack
I couldn’t agree with you more. Absolutely right - keep them in prison until they are no longer a threat. If that means for life, so be it. This could go right into how state and fed prisons should be partially privatized and how absurd the “war on drugs” is, but those are other discussions entirely.
“If everyone who was released from prison was a productive member of society, wouldn’t you prefer that sort of society?”
Comment by Zwack
Again, couldn’t have said it better myself.
October 25th, 2005 at 5:30 pm“…unlike you who prefers to kitchen sink like a pissed off dysfunctional girlfriend.”
Comment by Ryan Neat
I glad to see you are taking my advice and learning new and creative ways to attempt to degrade me. Good for you…
October 25th, 2005 at 5:38 pmIf everyone who was released from prison was a productive member of society, wouldn’t you prefer that sort of society?
Z.
Comment by Zwack
Utopian pipe dream in my opinion. There are some people who can not be rehabilitated. Also, who decides what a “productive member of society” is and when a prisoner has achieved that lofty position, the Liberals that consistently turn out worse offenders than they got to start with? The fact is we put people in jail to punish them, not rehabilitate them regardless of ridiculous title of “correctional institute” we give our prisons.
But allow them to vote? Why should we? A citizen already knows that by becoming a convicted felon he gives up his voting privilege. He may have served his sentence but that is only what we as a society have deemed to be his debt.
As I’ve said before, this country has too many losers voting as it is and most of you are not what any rational person would consider a productive member of society. I like my idea of allowing only productive members of our society the privilege of voting. Own some real property, pay taxes, improve the community, raise good children. Walking Dead Losers voting their “conscience” is what has fucked this country up. Put a stop to that and everyone benefits.
October 26th, 2005 at 12:18 pmWell thanks for your opinion Mr.Daschle. If you are so wise, how is it you lost your seat? Republican lite you are, and there is blood on your hands from 2,000 Americans and 10’s thousands of Iraqis. You abdicated your responsibility to declare War to an unelected president. Americans deserve an UP or Down vote on a Question of War. You and the other party misleaders are the main reason I’m now a registered Independent.
October 26th, 2005 at 9:56 pmThe Democratic Party, another wholly owned subsidiary of the Military Industrial Complex.
#94 Stubain- Funny stuff, you’re obviously intimidated by Ryan’s gift for words…:)
October 28th, 2005 at 1:59 pmWhat you all should be decrying is not the use of the REAL ID as voter-identification B.S.,
but the FORCED USE OF REAL ID, *AT ALL*!
Please take time to educate yourselves on the atrocity called REAL ID ACT that was
deceptively passed & will be foisted on American citizens, to our detriment, if that
disgusting law is permitted to stand.
Americans should be actively fighting this REAL ID ACT to get it overturned.
The sooner, the better, before billions of dollars are wasted with this ridiculous scheme to enable DMV personnel to obtain & maintain YOUR ENTIRE LIFE-DATA RECORDS & HISTORY.
Get involved now: Do a search on google to find the many ANTI-REAL ID web projects out there, and educate yourselves now.
Thank you.
November 12th, 2005 at 5:09 pm[…] Having read that troubling story I could not help but revisit the discussion on election reform we had about a month ago. […]
November 17th, 2005 at 3:33 pm[…] I have been flabbergasted by the continuing news coming out of the Justice Department. I first wrote on this blog a few weeks ago to discuss the harmful impact that requiring photo IDs would have on the most basic right in this country – the right to vote. Just a couple of weeks later, I returned to Think Progress to discuss how political bureaucrats at the Department of Justice overrode the strong recommendation of experienced DOJ professionals who suggested that the Georgia photo ID law was inconsistent with requirements under the historically successful Voting Rights Act. We have since learned that political bureaucrats at Justice overrode the professionals on the Texas redistricting case, too. […]
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