Morris: Libby Indictment Implicates Cheney
Morris: Libby Indictment Implicates Cheney
On Fox News, former presidential advisor Dick Morris says today’s events don’t bode well for Dick Cheney:
JOHN GIBSON: How bad is this damage? And what does the president need to control it, Dick?
DICK MORRIS: Well, it depends on whether we are just talking about Libby. If the prosecutor is happy with an indictment of him, a conviction, and that scalp on the wall is sufficient for him, then it just goes away. It’s one bad chapter and it passes.
But it is very possible that the prosecutor looks up the food chain to Vice President Cheney. These investigations have a way of rising. And according to the terms of the indictment, Cheney told Libby about Valerie Plame and then Libby lied to the grand jury about how he found about it, saying that he got it from a reporter. Well, if that’s the case, the vice president knew that Libby was lying.
And it wasn’t like his grand jury was secret. It was all over the place, you could read it in any newspaper. So my question is, why didn’t the vice president say anything? Why didn’t he speak up? And when you’re out there committing perjury and your boss is silent, and your boss knows that you’re doing that, it’s [the silence is] a subtle signal from your boss to say, “I appreciate it.”
UPDATE: Crooks & Liars has the video.
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He is just schilling for Condi. Morris is shameless.
But, who does Bush appoint if Cheney steps down?
October 28th, 2005 at 5:55 pmMorris is such a dweeb. There must be some women wearing open toed shoes in the Fox studio.
October 28th, 2005 at 5:58 pmAnyone have the line on the probablity that Libby spills in a plea bargin to cut a lesser charge/sentence with Fitzy in exchange Libby helps Fitzy screw the senior staff in the whitehouse to their own cross?
Could happen if Libby goes into self protection mode, but that might get him killed.
October 28th, 2005 at 5:58 pmNED,
You’re incompetent enough to hold that office under the ‘bush standards’, so you should be the VP. That way we can all get to enjoy when you go to jail for betraying our country as well.
Comment by Ryan Neat
PLEASE! NO!
October 28th, 2005 at 5:59 pmNED,
You’re incompetent enough to hold that office under the ‘bush standards’, so you should be the VP. That way we can all get to enjoy when you go to jail for betraying our country as well.
Comment by Ryan Neat
PLEASE! NO!
October 28th, 2005 at 5:59 pmHow many times can Morris be wrong before he is laughed out of business? He said Hillary would run in ‘04, then she would be the VP, then her fundraiser would be indicted, then she would lose to Pirro, etc…..
He is such a loser!
October 28th, 2005 at 6:01 pmi still want to see this Bush-tool weep when Rove gets indicted … he promised!
October 28th, 2005 at 6:06 pmHow many times can Morris be wrong before he is laughed out of business?
October 28th, 2005 at 6:09 pmCf. Bob Shrum.
Faux news is what I have called the NaziNetwork for years. You’ll notice that the bush-crime family has a family member in a high position there too.
Fitz is just getting started. Implicates Cheeney and Rove thinks he as just dodged a bullet, but he is mistaken. Look at the thorough way Fitzgerald does his work, fries the small ones one by one and goes for the head of they serpent….in this case the Asses of Evil…. Dumbya, Rover, and the big Dick.
There has never been a moment when the bush-crime family has been in politics that there has not been some scandal attached to them:
1940’s Found to be helping finance the Nazi’s and had their assets frozen for violation of trading with the enemy act october 1942. Prescott (dumbya’s grampa) profited directly from slave labor.
1945 – time to cleanse the family name – send HW to the navy and create a hero.
1950’s Prescott calls in favors and gets in politics
1960’s HW-big daddy in CIA has ties with Oswald Johnson cheeney and rover- makes many trips from tx to fl. Helps pen the “operation northwoodsâ€. (fyi: operation northwoods was an idea to use a domestic terror attack and blame it on Cuba to justify military action against them.) Helps set up a young dictator, moves him from Egypt to Bagdad, puts him on CIA payroll and pays for his apartment. Later installs him as leader – can you say Sadam?
1970’s big-daddy is CIA, Cheeney on the scene, rover on the scene can you guys say Watergate? Sideline: Kadafi on CIA payroll – some guys in south america on CIA payroll too.
1980’s big-daddy is Vice, Ray-gun is asleep, dumbsfailed arranges to sell WMD’s to big-daddy’s friend Sadam Husein and gives a wink wink nod nod to gas the curds. And Iran-contra.
1990’s big-daddy is pissed cause he can’t steal the election and helps the wing-nut zealots do a witchhunt on Clinton.
2000 – stolen election
2002 – operation northwoods comes to pass, time to invade some countries & steal their oil. Time to make big bucks for big business and family business (carlyle group)
2003 – damage control – Plamegate begins
2004 – steal election
2005 – get tit in wringer.
October 28th, 2005 at 6:16 pmSometime tomorrow, the headlines will come out -’Libby, Suicide Victim, Six Shots to the Head With a 1762 Muzzle-Loader’
October 28th, 2005 at 6:18 pmLook at the thorough way Fitzgerald does his work, fries the small ones one by one and goes for the head of they serpent….
October 28th, 2005 at 6:19 pmin this case the Asses of Evil…. Dumbya, Rover, and the big Dick.AKA the three Wizeguyz.
Walt, you don’t know just how right you are!
What do you think of the Pelican brief SC parallel? I know he was sick, but I think he said piss off I’ll retire when I want to. Find your get out of Jail Free people elsewhere.
October 28th, 2005 at 6:21 pmkjlovell,
Fitz used this technique to take down the NYC mob. He’s much better at it than the republican amateurs realize. Karl has met his match!
October 28th, 2005 at 6:21 pmWalt you know what happened to Bertha Champagne (Marvin Bush’s ‘live in’ babysitter)?
October 28th, 2005 at 6:22 pmRyan, I have said this before on numerous occassions,
You’re 100% correct…. I say it again.
October 28th, 2005 at 6:23 pm#7, yes he is frequently incorrect… But his comment bears examination…
If the indictment lists that Cheney told Libby and Libby told the reporter then it is always possible that Cheney was behind the smear campaign… In which case a conspiracy charge might be justifiable.
Z.
October 28th, 2005 at 6:26 pmWe certainly can’t blame Bush for all this. He wasn’t there. He was at his ranch clearing brush!
October 28th, 2005 at 6:29 pmI know we’re all Fitz, all the time today, but I thought you guys might want to see this.
Military shares public’s declining support for Bush, war
10/28/2005
Associated Press
More than half the North Carolina military members surveyed in the latest Elon University poll don’t like the way President Bush is handling his job and the war in Iraq.
The survey results were released today.
Of the 539 adults surveyed, nearly 53 percent of military members said they strongly disapproved or disapproved of Bush’s handling of his job. And 56 percent of that same group said they strongly disapproved or disapproved of his handling of the Iraq war.
Overall, slightly more than 53 percent of those surveyed did not approve of Bush’s job performance, while 57 percent didn’t approve of his handling of the Iraq war.
The telephone poll was conducted between Monday and Thursday and has a margin of error for the entire sample of plus or minus four-point-three percentage points.
October 28th, 2005 at 6:34 pmW should clear brush with a McCullough model 47. No anti kick-back, weighs about 47 pounds and can throw a chain about 45 feet in any direction, including towards the operator.
October 28th, 2005 at 6:38 pmLibby’s trial will have to involve Cheney. Fitzgerald is not done yet.
October 28th, 2005 at 6:39 pmThe President said today that this was a “sad” day — perhaps sad for him, as he oddly removes himself from the fray. A CIA agent was exposed by persons in the White House. The repercussions of that are profound. All agents will now be worried about their cover potentially being blown for political purposes; our allies will think twice before trusting America; programs in process around the world are in jeopardy; the integrity of America is now in question as well as its lack of responsibility to, and support for, its own agents.
In the case in question, Brewster-Jennings was a “cover” company (working on global weapons proliferation) and now its employees, its contacts around the world and potentially other agents of the CIA, are in danger of either personal harm, or of their missions being ruined.
Rove may be bargaining now, and he may have Bush’s support, even if it means incriminating Cheney.
Bush is far from innocent here.
I am from Texas, and what dumbya is clearing is Mesquete… small enough to be removed easily without chainsaws.
Besides we know how dumya loves to play dress up and pose for the cameras…..photo op only.
He has illegals to do the hard work, all the rich in TX use them to work their land. Common practice.
October 28th, 2005 at 6:41 pm#22 I meant to say America’s integrity is FURTHER in question — because the world has known it for some time now — it’s only Americans who remain ignorant.
October 28th, 2005 at 6:42 pmDick Morris is, in this case, barking up the wrong tree. He has contorted the VP’s “No Comment” on the Fitzgerald inverstigation – which was Bush administration policy – into some kind of secret coded message of approval for Scooter Libby to lie. What nonsense! If Cheney wanted to signal his approval to Libby, all he had to do was say something to him in private. Morris has been reading too many of his own books lately!
October 28th, 2005 at 6:48 pmBSR,
Interesting. I guess it has nothing to do with the fact that there’s an ONGOING conspiracy investigation, and that the nature of ANY conversations past or present might come up in the trial, or be overheard in some way? Or mabye it’s because the ‘encoding’ is for other hacks like you to know which way to spin the propaganda.
Either way, don’t really matter – LIBBY WAS INDICTED AND ROVE’S ON THE BLOCK!
WHOO HOO!!
October 28th, 2005 at 6:50 pmKJ,
October 28th, 2005 at 6:53 pmI’m actually a former Texan. Aggie as well. None of that fancy Mesquite in Dallas – but the mosquitoes used to eat the toads in our AC cooling tower and the June Bugs ate the mosquitoes.
“A CIA agent was exposed by persons in the White House. The repercussions of that are profound.”
Balderdash! A deskbound Langley intelligence analyst/suberban mom was accurately identified as having secured an assignment for her husband – who proceeded to lie to anyone who would listen about how he was selected, what he did, what he found, and what it all meant. The repercussions of that are that the analyst is still deskbound, still in Langley, still doing her job, and still a mom – only now she knows that the father of her children is a flaming liar!
October 28th, 2005 at 6:54 pmThe Military is dissin on Dubya and his three plus Stooges. Ouch! that has gotta hurt. He might need a drink.
Dickless Morris, who writes useless garbage using covers of Bill and Hillary’s books, should never be an expert in anything. He’s more likely to be a pasty chef than he is as a media analyst.
Ryan, do you have the key to the Oval Office liquor cabinet? Georgie Porgy might be a tad little thirsty.
October 28th, 2005 at 7:12 pmOh, and Laura might want a nipple of that Scotch.
Actually, BSR, the official white house position was that nobody was involved in the leak, that Rove and Libby were not involved, that they had assured the President and McClellan.
Then they flip-flopped their way into the flip-floppers hall of fame. Since the facts became public, their position became one of no comment. That no comment position directly preceded five indictment counts. So the smart money can infer a lot from what they don’t say now.
October 28th, 2005 at 7:14 pmWalt,
October 28th, 2005 at 7:17 pmI doubt if junior could get that McCullough running long enough to cut his dome in half with the thrown chain. He’d put the chain oil in the fuel tank and the saw gas in the chain oil tank, then commence to crankin’ on that baby till the armadillos come home.
Scooter took the fall for the W.H. ..I am assuming that he was either told or ask to take teh fall from the get go…He may well flip over when he understands that 30 yrs and a million dollars plus away from family,being disbared ,never abe to work in the W.H. again.. Maybe ggordon liddy will crave out a spot for him on his radio show…
October 28th, 2005 at 7:21 pmUm, what’s all this about “coded messages?” Dick Cheney’s approval or disapproval is just icing on the cake.
Teh important fact is that Scooter lied to a grand jury that was investigating the disclosure of national secrets. Dick Cheney, his boss, knew for a fact that Scooter lied.
As Vice-President, Dick Cheney had a responsibility to national security to ACT on his knowledge. He had to, at the very least, keep Scooter from getting access to more of the nation’s most important secrets, the kind of secrets that pass rather routinely through this VP’s office.
Instead, he did nothing. Nothing at all.
Sorry, that’s an impeachable offense.
October 28th, 2005 at 7:31 pmCNN shows this pitiful picture of lier libby, ‘It’s a sad day for me’ he says…GW says..’we’re all sad and unhappy’..speak for yourself crooks..this is a ‘happy day’ for justice. A sad day for 2000+ and their familys, and estimated 20,000+ Iraq civilians,women and children.
October 28th, 2005 at 7:35 pmForget Rove. It would be fun to see him go down but it is a distraction. The question is why did Libby lie. Was it to protect himself or was it to hide a larger conspiracy that included Cheney. My money is on the conspiracy. Also, we know that Cheney knew Libby was lying about learning about Plame from reporters yet he kept quiet. Will he be held accountable for that coverup?
October 28th, 2005 at 7:35 pmI can’t get the trackback thing to work. So here is the excerpt and the blog…
Welcome newcomers…please hit the comment link and join the debate, I am tired of doing battle, almost single handedly, with people who don’t understand that obstruction of justice is A CRIME!!
Chris from http://www.twobabesandabrain.com
October 28th, 2005 at 7:37 pmKeith,
October 28th, 2005 at 7:37 pmActually, the thing that I had would have probably started on chain oil. I sold it to a collector in 1990 or so and it still started on the second pull. Problem was, I was turning 50 at the time and it got to be a burden. On top of that, I got enough geld to buy a Mercury Wagon from the proceeds. The Mercury is probably scraped by now, but the McCullough is most likely still functional.
Implications if Valerie and Joe Wilson file Civil Suit?
October 28th, 2005 at 7:58 pm“He has illegals to do the hard work, all the rich in TX use them to work their land. Common practice.
Comment by kjlovell — October 28, 2005 @ 6:41 pm”
**** Actually, here in California, we use illegals to fill up our hospitals, schools and prisons – working the land – now there’s an idea!! OOPS!! –they do that here ,too!
“I meant to say America’s integrity is FURTHER in question — because the world has known it for some time now — it’s only Americans who remain ignorant.
Comment by Marie — October 28, 2005 @ 6:42 pm”
**** Marie, your SWEEPING GENERALIZATIONS reveal one of two things:
a.) you are a guilt ridden, America loathing citizen “of the world”.
and/or
b.) you aren’t that bright.
Question: Are you a retired teaacher or “public servant”? Just asking.
October 28th, 2005 at 8:01 pm“b.) you aren’t that bright.” MightyAphrodite,
Ironic coming from you. What are you an attorney who wouldn’t know evidence from evidently?
October 28th, 2005 at 8:06 pmJust because MightyWhore has ‘guilt’ and ‘victim’ issues, she projects those on everyone else. It never dawned on her that people might hold their opinions out of compassion, a sense of fairness, and a concern for their fellow man/woman. To dingey, everything boils down to guilt and victimization – because that’s how people with borderline personality disorder see the world. She’s a classic case for that, and the related schizophrenia that probably is inherited in her hateful family. She’s already shared enough about the lessons she learned in childhood to realize insanity runs in the family – and it clearly didn’t skip a beat where she was concerned.
October 28th, 2005 at 8:09 pmThe fact is Cheney and the rest of this administration are stupid cronyists who only wish to line their pockets and act out some childish fantasy of what it means to be a modern day roman emperor. These (and the trolls that are on here) are not americans nor do they represent american values. They hate america, and blame america every time we try to take care of our citizens. The demean our institutions. They demonize our desire to protect our poor and less fortunate. They attack us for wanting fair wages, fair democratic leadership, and fair elections. Then in the saddest piece of irony they claim folks who don’t agree with them ‘hate america’, when in fact america, our government, our institutions ARE those things.
It’s clear, republicans hate america, and they hate americans – but then again, fascists always hate anyone with a brain or a heart, because they have neither.
October 28th, 2005 at 8:12 pmSo it looks like there are two possible explanations (if Cheney isn’t part of a conspiracy to obstruct justice). The first is that he and Libby have never spoken about what Libby told the grand jury. The second is that he spoke to Libby but was told by the prosecutor that he should not talk about any discrepancies between his testimony and Libby’s until the investigation is finished. The first is laughable, of course, and the second could be affirmed or denied by the prosecutor. Am I missing any other possibilities? I guess he could say that although he was not asked by the prosecutor to keep quiet about the discrepancies, he thought it was appropriate. (And he also thought it was appropriate to keep him on the staff!!!)
October 28th, 2005 at 8:27 pmPuny Putz (AKA: Ryan/) would sleep with the enemy if they thought he’d live through it – that would show true compassion for the misunderstood extremist Muslims.
Putz, sweetheart, if you’re an example of having a heart – I think it’s time for a transplant – that one isn’t pumping. Please explain how the guilt ridden Marie “loves her country” when “everyone else” is sooooo knowledgeable and Americans are soooo ignorant. Is she just stupid, a civil servant or both.
October 28th, 2005 at 8:41 pmPlease refer to the treasonour puppetmaster by his correct name…TheBigDick.
October 28th, 2005 at 9:13 pmummm… miz aphro, is ignorance the topic now? i recall you once said california is not business friendly; the latest study says you are ignorant there.
do you seriously contend that America is trusted by the world today? i would love to believe you, but that’s simply not the world i see. i would say one of us is ignorant on that topic. or in denial. remember, denial is not just a training camp for the muslim brotherhood.
loving America does not mean fabricating the truth to make things look better than they are.
our troops are getting chewed up every day. every day. terrorist training camps are operating in Pakistan and other countries. and Red China is more than happy to help finance this little adventure. they’re not nearly as critical as they were when we democratized the Balkans. i wonder why? is it because they support democracy? or because they think this will weaken us?
Remember the aluminum tubes? Yellowcake? Mushroom clouds? I am disgusted with the fabricated utopia neocons with their junk science and their fixed intelligence and their hick rubes who lap it all up in the name of faux patriotism.
October 28th, 2005 at 9:14 pmAs for invading Iraq, the environment, conservation… it looks like the liberals were right after all, doesn’t it?
conservatives hate being wrong. makes me wonder why they keep doing it.
October 28th, 2005 at 9:17 pmFrom an earlier thread:
“This demonstrates clearly the narrow scope of the grand jury’s findings – and the utter improbability that any other charges will be filed in the absence of a new grand jury. Since Patrick Fitzgerald is clearly no Ronnie Earle I just don’t see that happening.â€
Comment by Blue State Red — October 28, 2005 @ 6:43 pm
Guess what? Wilson’s lawyers will be using the info gleaned from Libby’s (as well as “official Aâ€â€™s) upcoming trials as preliminary discovery. Areas that Fitz chose not to pursue will be targeted with probing and leading questions in the civil trial(s). With Bush and Cheney under oath, it won’t be long (oh, about next October or so) before we get a much fuller picture of the depths to which these “leaders†descended, to push a phony reason for invasion. Remember Clinton, BSR? You guys buttered this bread with an investigation about blowjobs and ten-year-old land deals – and now you’re going to choke down the results – bon apetit’.
Comment by dano347 — October 28, 2005 @ 9:31 pm
October 28th, 2005 at 9:50 pmAND, anything uncovered in civil court can then be used by Fitz. Is he playing chess? If the main players think that damaging info might be revealed in civil court (things that Fitz might not feel was in the scope of the original investigation, but could lead him to probe further), then their incentive to co-operate might be enhanced by possible civil liability.
October 28th, 2005 at 9:55 pm“Puny Putz (AKA: Ryan/) would sleep with the enemy [. . ]
Sounds like someone with intimate knowledge. Well Ryan, tell us all the details (if it wasn’t too tramatic).
October 28th, 2005 at 9:57 pmOops, that would be “Traumatic” – but tell us all the nasty bits; does she scream, or just sort of lie there?
October 28th, 2005 at 9:59 pmI missed something. If Libby was the first to talk to reporters, isn’t that the start of the crime?
October 28th, 2005 at 10:03 pmNice hijack try Mighty. But it didn’t work. Go change into NeD or I-Right-I and give it another whirl with one of your other nom de plumes. So boring… zzzzz….
October 28th, 2005 at 10:30 pmRyan – if I became VP, I nominate you Chief of Staff…
October 28th, 2005 at 10:30 pmSeems that we have more handles than trolls to man them these days…..
I guess it means they are really running scared these days.
the ‘big dick’ is certianly in trouble, and he knows it is just a short amount of time before he and libby are cellmates.
merry Fitzmas all!
October 28th, 2005 at 11:03 pmIt appears that MA, the troll, is unable to see that clandestine operations by the Central Intelligence Agency actually place people in harm’s way, and their lives, and the missions affecting national and international security are at risk when identity covers are blown. If someone outside the WH had done it, they would already have been tried and convicted.
October 28th, 2005 at 11:11 pmSome trolls are beyond redemption.
To all the sensible Americans who had to endure five years of hell under the George W. Bush regime. Keep your heads up, keep on slogging away at the right-wing cretins, and keep fighting the good fight.
Today maybe the beginning of the end, of the Neo-Conservative brain washing of the American electorate.
George W. Bush and his cohorts might be able to put out the number of small fires that seem to of engulfed hid Presidency over the last few months. This has culminated in the indictment of Scooter Libby. Libby should be indicted, for having a nickname of one of the Muppets. What’s Dick Cheney’s nickname, Oscar the grouch?
But I feel that the conscience of America, who are the like minded people who contribute to Think Progress. Can fan these small fires, and turn them into an inferno, which have no chance of being put out by Bush and his trusted team of propagandists.
Scooter Libby was just the first today to be caught, liar, liar, pants on fire, seems very apt. Let’s hope he squeals, like the fat lying pig that he is. And points the finger at the true culprits in the outing of a CIA operative.
One down, how many to go?
October 28th, 2005 at 11:12 pmOperation Northwoods
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search
Operation Northwoods or Northwoods was the code name for various false flag actions, including terror attacks on U.S. soil, proposed in 1962 by senior U.S. Department of Defense leaders to generate U.S. public support for military action against Cuba.
The proposal was presented in a document entitled “Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba,” a draft memorandum (pdf) written by the Department of Defense (DoD) and Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) representative to the Caribbean Survey Group. The draft memo was presented by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13 with one paragraph approved, as a preliminary submission for planning purposes. McNamara rejected the proposal.
The proposal’s existence was often dismissed as unfounded “conspiracy theory” until the draft memorandum was declassified in recent years through a Freedom of Information Act request by the National Security Archive.
October 28th, 2005 at 11:16 pmSOUND FAMILIAR? And who was HW really employed by? Right – CIA.
October 28th, 2005 at 11:17 pmMonths ago (before the election) I wrote that nothing would come of this leak. I’m so pleased to have been wrong. Still, until there is a change of heart in those that lead the far right America will continue to writhe, and the rest of the world admire us less and less.
Sad stuff. They’re not going away any time soon but it’s a lot of fun watching them twist in the wind of their lies.
October 28th, 2005 at 11:46 pm#56 – our post from across the pond! Nice to have the support.
October 29th, 2005 at 12:17 amReligious Extreemists are scary in ANY COUNTRY!
The American Taliban are just as bad as any others. Just look at Pat Robertson.
Hate is NOT a family value. Repugnicans don’t understand that. They cultivate fear, hate, and intolerance. It is their life blood.
October 29th, 2005 at 12:34 amComrades, Brothers, Sisters, Citizens!
There is no honor among them. Our country is at the mercy of arrogant, incpompentent bullies being ordered about by a cowardly snake handling baptist/alcoholic and a collection of power-mad neocons, evangelicals, robber barons and mental defectives. I predict that very soon will be the time of the plea bargain, as each and everyone of the President’s Men seek to avoid prison by becoming a rat. Yes, I predict they will all compete as to who can squeal the loudest when it comes to protecting their fat rat asses from doing a nickel in stir, just like G Gordon Liddy, another infamous President’s Man.
Patrick Fitzgerald may be this generation’s Murrow. Power on, bro.
Subkommander Dred
October 29th, 2005 at 1:25 amI think it’s kinda funny that Cheney might leave. That would relieve the Administration.
October 29th, 2005 at 1:39 amJust repeat after me: the bush error is over. the bush error is over. It was never meant to be and now it will be eradicated.
The bush error is over.
October 29th, 2005 at 1:41 amMorris: Libby Indictment Implicates Cheney
“…when you’re out there committing perjury and your boss is silent, and your boss knows that you’re doing that, it’s a subtle signal from your boss to say, ‘I appreciate it.’”
October 29th, 2005 at 1:48 amWhere oh where is the Moral Majority? We always hear them loud and clear when it comes to family values, gay marriage, violence in video games and assisted suicide. Will the Moral Majority stand up and denounce the blatant moral and ethical breakdown this administration and the Republican Party in general is suffering from? Or will they show us that they are just morally irrelevant?
October 29th, 2005 at 2:39 amP.S. Just a thought, If Libby won’t tell Fitz the truth can he send Libby to Gitmo or Abu Ghraib so our boys can get the info out of him?
October 29th, 2005 at 4:30 amIs the public obliged to withhold judgment about Scooter Libby and all other Bush Administration officials because they are “innocent until proven guilty in a court of lawâ€? The President would like us to think so, and he incorrectly implied as much today, saying, “In our system, each individual is presumed innocent and entitled to due process and a fair trial.” http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/28/politics/28bush-text.html. But he’s wrong about the public’s right to form an opinion and here’s why: It is true that, according to the US Supreme Court, “The principle that there is a presumption of innocence in favor of the accused is the undoubted law, axiomatic and elementary, and its enforcement lies at the foundation of the administration of our criminal law.” Coffin v. United States, 156 U.S. 432, 453 (1895).
But the Supreme Court’s explanation of this rule in TAYLOR v. KENTUCKY, 436 U.S. 478 (1978) makes it clear that it is the judge and jury in a criminal trial who are bound by that requirement, not the general public. The purpose of the requirement is that:
“it cautions the JURY to put away from their minds all the suspicion that arises from the arrest, the indictment, and the arraignment, and to reach their conclusion solely from the legal evidence adduced. In other words, the rule about burden of proof requires the prosecution by evidence to convince the jury of the accused’s guilt; while the presumption of innocence, too, requires this, but conveys for the jury a special and additional caution (which is perhaps only an implied corollary to the other) to consider, in the material for their belief, nothing but the evidence, i. e., no surmises based on the present situation of the accused. This caution is indeed particularly needed in criminal cases.” Wigmore 407., TAYLOR v. KENTUCKY, 436 U.S. 478 (1978). (emphasis added)
Our right as the general public to form and express our opinions is not governed by the presumption of innocence, but is guaranteed by another fundamental source – the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States. That Amendment gives us the right to read newspapers, gather information, and to form and share our opinions without government interference. When we in the general public consider the facts against George Bush and his un-indicted cronies, there is no risk that a suspicion that “arises from the arrest, the indictment and the arraignment†will cloud our judgment because the public’s s suspicion does not arise from any of those sources.
The public’s suspicion arises from the facts that we’ve gathered from the newspapers, even in the absence of any arrest or indictment or arraignment of these other potential co-conspirators. We don’t have to suspend disbelief. No one can tell us to withhold judgment as members of the general public. It is only when we become jury members or judges that we should and must hold our noses and hear all of the court evidence before we reach a conclusion. Until we are jury members, we must decide what we think and form and share our opinions based on what we read in the papers and the blogs.
If other administration figures are ever charged, then a jury will make its separate decision based on the facts at trial. Many historical figures were never tried in court for their crimes against humanity, but that they must be considered “innocent†in the annals of history. It simply means they escaped criminal justice. But we will never forget what they did or the blame that is rightfully theirs, and if they were here today we would insist that they be tried in a court of law.
How can we vote if we don’t form opinions? We suspect these Administration officials and we believe they are blameful even though the government has so far failed to charge them with any crime. The reason is that based on what we read in the newspapers, we’ve come to the conclusion that they are guilty as sin. If we are ever called to sit on their juries, we’ll listen open-mindedly to all of the evidence, and then we’ll probably come to the same conclusion once again. But since they might never be tried, we have to go on what we have for the time being. And what we have says they’re guilty as heck.
October 29th, 2005 at 4:54 am1)Who told Fitz that Libby got the Plame ID info from Cheney? Rove? We know it wasn’t Libby.
2)If it was Cheney or Rove, have they already made their deals with Fitz? If it wasn’t Cheney did HE lie in his testimony?
3)How does Fitz know that Libby understood that the info came from the CIA? Cheney or Rove again?
4)Have Cheney and or Rove already spilled their guts about Libby and Plame and is Fitz just waiting for more peices to the bigger Iraq invasion picture to unfold?
October 29th, 2005 at 8:59 am“Guess what? Wilson’s lawyers will be using the info gleaned from Libby’s (as well as ‘official A’’s) upcoming trials as preliminary discovery. Areas that Fitz chose not to pursue will be targeted with probing and leading questions in the civil trial(s).”
So, Joe Wilson has his own lawyers poised to go after, er, who, exactly, and on what grounds? So what? What’s he going to do, sue because politics happens to be slightly rougher than a game of beanbag?
Wilson can’t show that he was damaged by anything Scooter Libby did or didn’t say to the grand jury. He has no basis for a civil action under the IIPA or the Espionage Act. He can’t even show that he suffered any harm (you need damages in a civil case) that wasn’t caused by putting his own big foot in his own lying mouth. If his lawyers are smart, they will advise him to shut up and sit down. His 15 minutes of fame are over.
October 29th, 2005 at 9:26 amJust think folks, the Libby trial and the continual probing by Fitzie will be going on in November 2006.
By this time Rove will be indicted, along with Cheney, and then what leg does the puke party stand on?
This thing will be too hot to handle by the pukes for months and months to come. I see the puke senators turning against the criminal ridden administration of King George in droves. In less than a year they all will be voting democratic.
October 29th, 2005 at 10:16 am“Wilson can’t show that he was damaged by anything Scooter Libby did or didn’t say to the grand jury. He has no basis for a civil action under the IIPA or the Espionage Act. He can’t even show that he suffered any harm (you need damages in a civil case) that wasn’t caused by putting his own big foot in his own lying mouth. If his lawyers are smart, they will advise him to shut up and sit down. His 15 minutes of fame are over.”
Comment by Blue State Red — October 29, 2005 @ 9:26 am
Above, you see how these lying slimey sons a bitches reward patriotism. Wilson’s crime?? He went to Niger in service to his country, investigated questionable intelligence, and reported his findings honestly.
But hey, you want to lick Bush’s ass for him, lie to congress, help him get out of his TANG duties, or his jury obligations, or his drunk driving arrests, or the problems caused by his coccaine use, or hide the criminal malfeasance that brought down the WTC, hey, you get a job at FEMA, or a Supreme court appointment, or a diplomatic posting, or if you are really a HUGE lying asshole, you get the Medal of Freedom.
Ain’t love grand?
BTW, after Fitz spends a few kwadrillion bucks prosecuting Libby, the smirking idiot monkey will simply pardon him as he slimes his way out of office. All we are going to be left with is the Gannon stains on the White House rugs, and the bubble gum wads stuck under Dubya’s desk.
October 29th, 2005 at 10:58 amP’d Off,
Just so you know, Fitz is supposed to only have spent around $800,000 so far, as compared to Kenny Starr’s millions on investigating Clinton. Pretty fiscally responsible for a change, eh?
October 29th, 2005 at 11:06 amYou Can Kill, Just Don’t Lie
The impeachment articles in the case of Richard Nixon charged him with lying about the bombing of Cambodia but did not charge him with war crimes for the actual bombing. The bombing resulted in 600,000 dead and the destruction of much of the farmland in Cambodia driving the peasants into the open arms of the Khmer Rouge.
We are witnessing the same phenomenom today as the Fitzgerald enquiry has charged Libby with perjury and obstruction of justice. He lied so he is a bad boy but not because he was a major player in all the decisions about Iraq which resulted in a multitude of war crimes.
The discourse about the wrongdoing of President Bush focuses on his lies about his reasons for going to war against Iraq but not about the horrendous war crimes for which he is ultimately responsible. The polls, now showing that the people want him impeached, reveal that people are disgusted by the lying of President Bush but not by his war crimes.
All of this is a reflection of a political culture in the United States that supports aggression, intervention and militarism to protect American interests. The voices of dissent are muffled by a press that supports the imperialistic rulers of the empire. The so-called opposition party, the Democrats, is of the same mind and part of a consensus that was struck very early in the history of this imperialisic republic. The explanation for the lack of critique of the President’s defense and foreign policy is that Democratic presidents have embraced the same imperialistic policies.
With the media and the opposition on board, there is virtually no prospect that there will even be a discussion about war crimes. The danger in this vacuum of any real dissent is that Americans will not demand that their presidents respect international law and institutions. Until that day, the world is not safe.
AUTHOR OF “LYING FOR EMPIRE: HOW TO COMMIT WAR CRIMES WITH A STRAIGHT FACE”
October 29th, 2005 at 11:12 amCheney stepping down would be the first necessary step to the impeachment of Bush. Who would ever go after the President with Jabba the Hut waiting in the wings?
October 29th, 2005 at 12:19 pm[...] It seems that Karl Rove and Bob Novak have a history, this is new’s to me, if true, then karl is still in hot water with Fitzgerald, and Dick Cheney is not far behind. Rove fired from Bush Sr’s ‘92 campaign over leak to Novak. Karl Rove was fired from the 1992 re-election campaign of Bush Sr. for allegedly leaking a negative story about Bush loyalist/fundraiser Robert Mosbacher to Novak. Novak’s piece described a meeting organized by then-Senator Phil Gramm at which Mosbacher was relieved of his duties as state campaign manager because “the president’s re-election effort in Texas has been a bust.” Rove was fired after Mosbacher fingered him as Novak’s source. [...]
October 29th, 2005 at 12:28 pmThey say libby knows cheeney so well that he can “finish his sentences”
Only this time he’ll be finishing cheeney’s sentence in Levenworth.
October 29th, 2005 at 3:20 pm“They say libby knows cheeney so well that he can “finish his sentences—
It seems that boyfriends can often do that for each other. Looks like lesbians aren’t the only unconventional lifestyle in the Cheney family :)
October 29th, 2005 at 5:54 pm“They say libby knows cheeney so well that he can “finish his sentencesâ€â€
“It seems that boyfriends can often do that for each other. Looks like lesbians aren’t the only unconventional lifestyle in the Cheney family :)”
Comment by Ryan Neat
Jesus H.Christ, these SOBs lie us into a war, condone and facilitate torure, bankrupt the country, plunder our environment, appoint inept and criminal assholes to important cabinet posts, and you want to attack Cheney’s daughter for being lesbian? Just STFU, will ya? Use your damned brain for something other than sexual fantasies, OK?
October 29th, 2005 at 6:30 pmMaybe IRVING LIBBY will commit suicide and be done with it. So much for your trial. He should fall on his sword but leave an extensive summary of Cheney’s involvement.
October 29th, 2005 at 7:04 pm#80, With great regularity, the reichwingers who post here attack liberals with outrageous insults involving sexual habits — sometimes, the liberals react.
October 29th, 2005 at 7:18 pmBTW, (although it is off topic)it was pretty obnoxious that Cheney used his daughter when he needed her, but chose his party platform in the end.
Anyone have links to detailed accounts of Fitz’s prior modus operandi that would indicate he starts with the small fry then eventually hooks the juicy trout? Those accounts alone should ensure pee-soaked panties for the remnants of the cabal.
October 29th, 2005 at 9:11 pm#85 go to wikipedia and look up Patrick Fitzgerald
It’s an excellent source for just about everything. It has links too.
While you’re at it, look at “operation northwoods” it was authored in the 1960’s by the Joint Cheifs of Staff (see also Lyman Lemnitzer major author of it that was a rightwing racist dismissed from army for being one).
Operation Northwoods was a proposal to have a domestic terrorist attack and blame another country for it to justify military action. Very interesting that it was rejected by McNamara but seems to have been fully used by dumbya in 2001.
Other interesting reading is Operation Mockingbird. It is a plan to control the media so that they could control how Americans percieve reality.
Lemnitzer was involved in: Operation Northwoods, Operation Mockingbird, Operation Ajax and the Bay of Pigs. It is said that he was involved with Prescott Bush in operation paperclip. That is the one where they helped get Nazi war criminals out of Germany so that they could start new lives in places like Argentina, South American, and even in the U.S.A.
October 29th, 2005 at 11:27 pm#38 Mighty- Speaking of California government workers, remember to vote next week in the special election. Although I’m starting to think moving to Nevada,with the rest of the businesses, may be the best option. Mad TV had a funny bit using the Wheel of Fortune with government workers….funny stuff and a little too true to laugh at without crying…..
October 31st, 2005 at 2:48 pmRyan- I think “kj” and “better red” are starting to out “venom” you. You may want to get out your “A” game if you want to win the “self parody” marathon….
Mind games
the mind is a tool,
witta mind of its own.
if you don’t control it,
it controls you.
if you is not consciously choos’n tha thoughts you entertain n dwell on, you is a slave ta yo thoughts.
if you become offended, upset, angry n hateful, it is coz you’ve allowed yo thoughts ta takes you there.
if you dwizzell on n entertain negative thoughts, tha negative energies they create affect yo mizzind, emotions, spirit n body through illnesses . I started yo shit and i’ll end yo’ shit. these negative energies also radiate fizzy you affect’n blingin’ in yo life.
yo thoughts create negative or positive energy, n if you is not in charge of T-H-to-tha-izzem, who is?
the most positive n reward’n energies
in all creation
are love n gratitude.
and bizzoth is yos
November 1st, 2005 at 1:11 pmwhen you receive all ridin’ wit thankfulness.
tank/ned/dumbass/nor east dimentia/aphrodykie, whoever you are
pretending to be today
You fool no one, you have to have your head burried up your ass so far that you breathe farts not to know your side is sunk.
If you like the current climate of corruption in the Government, keep voting. If you don’t like the FACTS in here
GO AWAY
Pure and simple much like yourself, your the minority here.
dumbya is corrupt, he lies so much that he has to have someone else call his dog.
his school marm wife murdered her highschool boyfriend.
KKKarl rove is so crooked he has to screw his pants on.
crash-cart cheeney has no heart, and engineered this war with some of the other criminals you will no doubt be defending later.
war crimes are being committed by these nazis, and you sit back and call someone else a fool.
LOOK IN THE MIRROR.
Now go away if you don’t like the ideas and FACTS here.
November 2nd, 2005 at 2:09 amI want to see Bush and Cheeney removed from office NOW.
VOTETOIMPEACH.ORG
I was soooo wrong, and such an idiot for supporting a murdering administration.
I want to extend a personal apology to all on this blog.
I want to say those of you that thought I was
mighty aphroditie, Northeast Delima, Turk, Joe Sixpack and Jeff Gannon were
totally correct.
I am only one person, and I have tried to show that there are more than one person that support the
Bush administration.
I am paid by the administration, and i feel totally dirty and guilty.
November 2nd, 2005 at 3:08 pm[...] As ThinkProgress cites Dick Morris on FOX News, that if Mr. Cheney did in fact tell Libby that Wilson’s wife worked at the CIA and then “Libby lied to the grand jury about how he found out about it, saying that he got it from a reporter. Well, if that’s the case, the vice president knew that Libby was lying… so my question is, why didn’t the vice president say anything?” I know what you’re thinking and I am thinking it, too – “interesting, indeed.” [...]
February 8th, 2006 at 6:57 pm[...] As ThinkProgress cites Dick Morris on FOX News, that if Mr. Cheney did in fact tell Libby that Wilson’s wife worked at the CIA and then “Libby lied to the grand jury about how he found out about it, saying that he got it from a reporter. Well, if that’s the case, the vice president knew that Libby was lying… so my question is, why didn’t the vice president say anything?” I know what you’re thinking and I am thinking it, too – “interesting, indeed.” [...]
October 30th, 2006 at 2:05 am