What Part of “Obstruction of Justice” Don’t You Understand?
What Part of “Obstruction of Justice” Don’t You Understand?
In Today’s Los Angeles Times, Max Boot tries to minimize the impact of the indictment of Scooter Libby for false statements, perjury and obstruction of justice.
But with his investigation all but over, prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald has found no criminal conspiracy and no violations of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, which makes it a crime in some circumstances to disclose the names of undercover CIA operatives.
First, Fitzgerald’s investigation is drawing to a close but senior administration officials, including Karl Rove, remain in serious legal jeopardy. Moreover, in his press conference, Patrick Fitzgerald stressed repeatedly that’s Libby’s obstruction is complicating efforts to issue indictments for other crimes:
And grand jurors and prosecutors making decisions about who should be charged, whether anyone should be charged, what should be charged, need to make fine distinctions about what people knew, why they knew it, what they exactly said, why they said it, what they were trying to do, what appreciation they had for the information and whether it was classified at the time.
Those fine distinctions are important in determining what to do. That’s why it’s essential when a witness comes forward and gives their account of how they came across classified information and what they did with it that it be accurate.
…
And what we have when someone charges obstruction of justice, the umpire gets sand thrown in his eyes. He’s trying to figure what happened and somebody blocked their view.
As you sit here now, if you’re asking me what his motives were, I can’t tell you; we haven’t charged it.
So what you were saying is the harm in an obstruction investigation is it prevents us from making the fine judgments we want to make.
…
You need to know at the time that he transmitted the information, he appreciated that it was classified information, that he knew it or acted, in certain statutes, with recklessness.
And that is sort of what gets back to my point. In trying to figure that out, you need to know what the truth is.So our allegation is in trying to drill down and find out exactly what we got here, if we received false information, that process is frustrated.
What part of “obstruction of justice” doesn’t Max Boot understand?
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It’s really simple: We can’t pin down the particulars of the big crime because some jerk named Scooter is committing smaller crimes to hide it.
November 2nd, 2005 at 12:31 pmObstruction of justice, that’s when you, say, delay the investigation until after the election?
November 2nd, 2005 at 12:32 pmJudd,
Your relentless search for truth is anti-american. I accept everything our fearless leader says without any doubt. Signed, Typical Republican
November 2nd, 2005 at 12:38 pmJudd,
It’s not that Boot DOES NOT understand, it’s that he WILL NOT understand.
November 2nd, 2005 at 12:41 pmThe American people have the right to know the truth.
November 2nd, 2005 at 12:43 pmMax Boot-Head,
These craven blowhards are cowering in fear that the “sexed-up” data will leak out and expose them for the power hungry war mongers they really are.
Scott Gannon-McLellan is now pointing the finger at Bill Clinton. Maybe that stain on the dress was anthrax!
I say CHIMPeach the bastards.
-GSD
November 2nd, 2005 at 12:49 pmThe Bush apologists will not show up on this thread- all they can do in response is bring up Joe Wilson, or Clinton, or Michael Moore and then flee.
November 2nd, 2005 at 12:49 pmWell jb, the Boot article WAS about Wilson primarily so I think bringing him up would only be appropriate. HE is the big liar in this ridiculously overblown case. And if Plame didn’t want to be identified she shouldn’t have had her husband sent to Niger so he could ignore what he found and lie about it in the NYT.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:01 pmOh yeah,
The “We can’t find the murderer because our OTHER murderer killed the murderer” defense.
OLDIE BUT A GOODIE!
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:03 pmjb,
Funny stuff… looks like you were right on target. :)
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:06 pmcynicon,
That’s bunk and unless you’re stupid or a fool you’d know it. It’s proven that this administration is the liar (eg. one indictment), and that wilson was telling the truth. And by you LYING again, you just look foolish. Then again, republicans are foolish and hateful by nature. You’re all compulsive liars.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:09 pmRight.
THANK GOD IT WAS ONLY ONE INDICTMENT! WHEW!
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:09 pm#8
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:11 pmActually, Mrs Plame did not “send her husband” to Niger… she reccomended him, as he had operated there before in other diplomatic issues. Funny, the talking point is to call him a liar, but it still doesn’t change the FACT that he did NOT lie: There is NO EVIDENCE that Iraq sought to buy uranium from Niger (or anywhere else). That’s o.k., your masters will feed you for trying to spread your propaganda. But you don’t care that a member of this administration lied (Libby) and obsructed the investigation with those lies, against the express wishes of Bush, who vowed that the WH would (was, is) cooperating fully with the investigation. Obstructing justice is not cooperating. But it is obvious that Libby did not perjure simply for his own benefit. So who is he covering for and why? Or do you not care about that as long a “your team wins”?
This isn’t a football game – this is our country. Or are you not concerned about honesty and transparency in our government?
Really good point #13.
Too bad it will just fly by cynicon implants brain without a single neuron being activated.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:14 pmThis is pure wishful thinking. There was no violation of the IIPA or the Espionage Act. There was no criminal conspiracy to leak classified information. Karl Rove was not indicted, and does not remain in “serious legal jeopardy” (no charges means no jeopardy).
Scooter Libby is charged with lying to the grand jury. He, and no one else, is in serious legal jeopardy.
The Left hitched its wagon to a star that turned out to be the legal equivalent of a brown dwarf – barely detectible and of little concern to average Americans. Most folks don’t know who Scooter Libby is and don’t care what happens to him. But they see Harry Reid’s temper tantrums, and hear his inside baseball references to “Phase Two,” and theyknow it is mostly irrelevant to the issues they care about every day: jobs, low taxes, and the freedom to raise their families as they see fit. The GOP continues to succeed in addressing these issues, and to help spread freedom and democracy to other parts of the world. The Dems have nothing – no ideas, no plan, and no principles. They will continue to lose elections as long as this remains true.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:15 pmCatalyst,
Hehe. When they don’t like reality, they just make up their own . . ..
The Boot article? Huh? The indictment was about Libby allegedly lying during an investigation into the administration’s outing of a spy. Read it.
BTW, whistle-blower laws are there to protect the little guy, not the Mayberry Machiavellis _in power_ (who oversee the CIA and could have disciplined Plame within the CIA, if appropriate, because, ya know, they are in power).
We haven’t heard about Clinton or Michael Moore yet?! Come on, Bush-enablers, you are letting me down!! Some guy on redstate.com said Fitzgerald is going to indict Joe Wilson. It MUST be true!!!! Come on!!!!!!
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:15 pmBlue state Red,
Let me correct your first paragraph:
“What follows is pure wishful thinking: There was no violation of the IIPA or the Espionage Act. There was no criminal conspiracy to leak classified information. Karl Rove was not indicted, and does not remain in “serious legal jeopardy†(no charges means no jeopardy).”
There. Now it is accurate. You’re welcome.
The absence of proof is not proof of absence. Read the Fitzgerald report: you cannot prove intent when people lie to you. Oh yeah, Fitzgerald calls his investigation “the leak investigation”. He says Ms. Wilson’s “cover was blown.” Fitzgerald cannot discuss people who are not charged, and as of yet, Rove is not charged. But he clearly said he is not done.
If the GOP is doing such a good job, why does Bush have Carter-like approval numbers? Hmmm. Funny.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:20 pm#14
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:22 pmThanks. It’ll fly by BSR (and the rest) as well. We all know the answers to my questions to them: they are all about “our team”. Unfortunately their “team” is not America, it is a political party.
Sounds like Blue State Red is repeating Sean Hannity’s talking points.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:23 pmHow about the right getting upset that the CIA’s torture chambers were leaked to the press but giving the White House a pass for leaking the identity of a spy. How can you be made about the CIA tashing all American’s names by committing torture and not be equally upset about this leaking? Whhat freakin’ hypocrites.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:23 pmThey are HUGE hypocrites!
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:30 pmOh stop your grandstanding. Scooter and Karl did nothing that doesn’t happen in DC every day of the year. Wilson comes out against Bush in the media, Bush’s guys seek to destroy him. Both parties do it, ALL THE TIME. So acting like this is “so bad, so wrong” is liberal disingenuity at its best.
By the way, any of you libs have an agenda yet? Didn’t think so.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:34 pmSince it is becomming quite obvious that the writers supporting the gop will not in any way attempt to even examine the possibility that they have done exactly what they are criticizing– they are interpreting– not simply using the words–! What is now required is a continuing presentation of every single fact that is in some way affecting us all negatively and we must continue to do this for the next 12 months! DAILY and if necessary– HOURLY!!!!! The gop can be defeated and we must not chalk off a single district in this country! Not a single district!
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:34 pmPound them, pound them! and then– pound them AGAIN!
billjpa@aol.com
I can’t wait until Joe Wilson has to testify before a grand jury and will expose all of the lies he has been spreading. This whole thing will blow up in your faces. It will happen, especially after the stunt that Reid pulled yesterday.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:37 pmBlue State Red,
In regards to the GOP addressing the issue of the American people being able to “raise their families as they see fit.” Would you please provide some evidence or data that backs up your point?
In regards to the GOP addressing the unemployment rate in this nation, would you please provide some evidence to back up your statement?
In regards to lower taxes, would you please provide some evidence as to how this has benefited the middle and lower classes?
And in regards to the GOP helping to â€spread freedom and democracy to other parts of the world;” would you please provide evidence that states where the nations we have “helped” actually asked for our assistance? At the same time, please also provide us your definition of freedom.
If you cannot provide this information, or if your information is not accurate or trustworthy, then your words are just hot air, or 1’s and 0’s.
“States are not moral agents.” – Chomsky
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:37 pmmysticagent,
What else can they do? Their foundation is crumbling out from under them (moral majority, contract for america, etc.. turning out to be meaningless words mean’t to obtain power) and the truth can get real ugly. Its time that they start applying their critism torwards their own party so that they can live up to all of these claims of ethical superiority.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:37 pmAs Jon Stewart said recently, it’s too bad lies don’t leave semen stains; if they did, THEN we’d have impeachment talk around here!
It’s become quite clear to over 50% of America: the Cheney-Rove-Bush-Rumsfeld-Libby cabal lied to get us into the war, lied to cover up that they lied to get us into the war, committed treason by outing a CIA operative and her network during the war that they cooked up, lied to cover up that treason, and offered up Harriet Miers as a sacrificial lamb to try to distract all of us from the war, lies and videotape…
But it’s ok; starting next Tuesday in my home state of Virginia, we’ll begin to set this country straight again by tossing as many of the repug hypocrites as possible onto the trashpile of history, until the country is again safe for true patriots who love their country more than they love power, money and their big-business buddies.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:40 pmIn addition, I think Fitzgerald made it quite clear that the indictment of Libby has nothing to do the with war in Iraq. Let me repeat in case you still don’t understand, the indictment of Libby has nothing to do the with war in Iraq. Again, there was no outing of Plame, and the only crime possibly committed was perjury and conspiracy by Libby. Democrats really need to let go of this, or come next year, they will lose five more seats in the Senate and 10 more in the House.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:40 pmThere’s a right-wing conspiracy afoot … that’s to keep repeating the words “no conspiracy” over & over again…
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:41 pmZippy,
I suggest you go back and do your research as to what democrats have said about Iraq from 1998 to 2003. The answer will shock you.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:42 pmCan I just bring up Bush’s Carter-like approval ratings again?
There. Much better.
On Meet the Press, Safire said that things would turn around for Bush as soon as the press “narrative” changes from “Bush struggles” to “Bush’s comeback.” That’s partially true, but man, if the White House thinks their fortunes will turn for the better on their own (implicitly by managing the “narrative”), we are all in for a long 3 years.
I like that Bush releases a flu plan, and we should wait for details (seriously). However, policy like this lives or dies by the details, and I think few people trust these clowns to get the details right, whatever he says at a press conference.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:45 pmChase, none here are buying your BS. Go polish your jack boots till you can see your own retarded mug in them. Use some of your own creamy polish whilst you fantasize about rewriting our laws.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:47 pmTortue,rape,murder,treason,fraud, war profiteering etc. etc. etc. all OK and par for the course, in the Repugnant bizarro world.
#28 – Ed – YOU have it wrong: Fitzy said that her status was classified and Libby was the first to leak name to reporters. But because of Libby’s perjury, Fitzgerald just couldn’t figure out YET whether to charge Libby with treason or a lesser crime.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:48 pmNothin’to hide?
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:49 pmNothin’ to obstruct!
Ed #30 — try again. What democrats have said about Iraq from 1998 to 2003 was in large part based on the same faulty intelligence. The difference is that, beginning in 2000, the faulty intelligence was force-fed to a gullible congress and American public, who actually believed the bushnik crap about “restoring integrity to the White House.” We WANTED to believe them; now, it turns out, the joke was on all of us. Hence, we were all misled into a war (the justification for which has now changed 3 times since it was started) based on lies.
But nice try to duck the subject. We don’t need any revisionist history lessons from your kind here…
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:49 pmAnd by the way, I wonder how the pro-lifers like Roberts and Scalito will view the death penalty when Cheney, Libby, Rove and Georgie-Porgie are facing it square in the eye — treason during wartime is one of the few federal crimes still punishable by the federal death penalty.
Oh, but then we’d have to deal with a President Hastert…damn!
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:51 pmBush has never released an actual plan. He claims to, he insists that others do; like “no more tsunami relief money until they show us an actual plan on how it will be spent”; while Bush and Friends continually offer no-plan ‘plans’. He has a plan for the bird flu, but it’s secret. He has an exit strategy, but it’s secret. How long did they try to sell the public on their social security plan without even presenting a plan?
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:52 pmI wonder, do trolls really think we are so stupid as to not be able to see the truth? It gets soooooo old. Must be a slow day on the nazi bloggs.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:54 pmEd,
That is such a tired argument… yes, many of the democrats (around 29 I think) voted yes to authorize the war. However, like RESPONSIBLE senators, they have been pushing for oversight whether they were mislead into this war. The same oversight/investigation that the REPUBLICAN CONTROLLED senate has been stonewalling since the last election until they were finally put on the spot yesterday.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:56 pmEd,
“I suggest you go back and do your research as to what democrats have said about Iraq from 1998 to 2003. The answer will shock you.”
No, it won’t. I suggest you go back and see that Bush ordered US troops into Iraq in March 2003, not Michael Moore, Bill Clinton, or John Kerry. Also, go back and look at what the inspectors and the IAEA said when they got back into Iraq.
The people who said in December 2002, “declare victory and give the inspectors a chance” were, well, right. In any event, if we were going to have war, Bush clearly could have used the extra time, to you know, plan a little better.
Regarding an investigation: do you want the nation to end up in another war based on bad intelligence? Do you want the messy details about post-war rebuilding spooned out by Dick “Flowers and sweets, greeted as liberators” Cheney (or whoever the next elected cheerleaders are)? Do you want the executive branch, whoever is in it at the time, selectively declassifying the most alarming data while keeping the rest hidden? Do you want to build and maintain democracy at home, in addition to wanting it in Iraq?
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:57 pm#28
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:57 pmEd – there is no such thing as a “conspiracy of one”. Libby perjured. Why? He did not do so for himself. Perjury isn’t a big deal to you, though, is it. Honesty from our government and accountability are no big deal. Just because the politics involved have been “business as usual” does not mean that they are acceptable or right. Saddam was just practicing his politics “as usual”. Why knock him for it? Medieval religious tradition said the earth was the center of the universe. Dissention was met with execution, incarceration, and/or torture. It was trtadition. Just because an activity is “tradition” does not mean it is right. How about some of those Mid-east traditions concerning women? How about the Hindu tradition of burning a man’s wife alive on his pyre if he dies first? That’s tradition. One more time, because I know it is hard for some to grasp – “Tradition” does NOT mean it is right.
But if “Scooter” had shot his wad all over some fat bitch’s dress and he was a Democrat, they’d be all over it like white on rice, and not making excuses for his behavior or creating nuances.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:59 pm“Again, there was no outing of Plame, and the only crime possibly committed was perjury and conspiracy by Libby.”
Typical neo-con BushBot who watches too much Fox news. Question. WHY? Why? Why? If you do not ask yourself why, then you will always be enslaved by those who feed you the answers.
So, ask yourself: Why would Libby committ perjury and obstruction of justice?
Why?
November 2nd, 2005 at 2:02 pm#13 – “Actually, Mrs Plame did not “send her husband†to Niger… she reccomended him…” – MysticMAN
November 2nd, 2005 at 2:19 pm****Here’s what cynicon (#8) said: “And if Plame didn’t want to be identified she shouldn’t have had her husband sent to Niger..” – Since you parse every SINGLE WORD, cutting and pasting might be easier – “have had her husband sent” by the CIA (and not the VP’s office as the liar claimed) and “recommended” -probably to her bosses again, at the CIA….
MightyWhoringLiar.
Why must you repost the same lies that have already been debunked? Are you truly that stupid? You must be.
1) Plame didn’t even work in the ‘area’ that sent Wilson.
2) Plame had not AUTHORITY to send Wilson.
3) Your ‘claim’ of what wilson ‘claimed’ is an utter lie. Not only did Wilson not ‘claim the VP’s office sent him’, your CLAIM that he did is just a swiftboat lie.
MightyMoron
Everything you wrote is clearly and undeniably debunked. The fact that you repeat propaganda and lies just shows everyone what a fool and a retard you are, it doesn’t change the point.
November 2nd, 2005 at 2:26 pmCriminals and Zionist Terrorists like MightyWindbag are such a smear to america and israel. She spews the same rhetoric that Osama spews. She has the same hate as Osama has. And she uses the same lies and deception as Osama does. Not only is she not helping fight Osama – she IS Osama.
Honesty and integrity never touches terrorists and zealots. They’re below the human condition, they only know how to hate, kill, persecute and lie. They are an abomination of the human condition.
Feel pity for this disfigured beast – and hope that at one point she had a soul, because clearly she has none now.
November 2nd, 2005 at 2:29 pmaphrodite,
How does recommending her husband for the trip blow her cover? Oh yeah, when the white house blows her cover, not because he went, but because he was critical when he got back.
The more I hear about how bogus his statements were, the more I wonder, “Then why out his wife? Why not destroy his obvious ‘misstatements’ and not his wife’s career?” How full of it could Wilson have been if the Boy Genius had to resort to good old fashioned GOP rat-f4cking he learned during the Nixon era? Doesn’t follow, does it? Sloppy, irresponsible, and incompetent at best; criminal at worst (and we will see, as Fitz has not gone home to Chicago for good yet).
November 2nd, 2005 at 2:29 pmAlthough there were suggestions that Plame was behind the decision to send me to Niger, the CIA told Newsday just a week after the Novak article appeared that “she did not recommend her husband to undertake the Niger assignment.” The CIA repeated the same statement to every reporter thereafter.
YOU’RE A LIAR AND MORON YOU HE/SHE!
November 2nd, 2005 at 2:31 pmjb,
The CIA officially confirmed that Plame did not recommend her husband. The smear is so vast and so loud they actually have many progressives believing this LIE!
November 2nd, 2005 at 2:32 pmI wonder if Fitztgerald didn’t indict only Libby first in an effort to flip him to help the prosecution.
November 2nd, 2005 at 2:45 pmCraig,
That’s how fitz took down the mob, and that’s all we have in the whitehouse. A NeoCon mob.
November 2nd, 2005 at 2:49 pmRe: Americans “rais[ing] their families as they see fit” one need only look at the fact that the GOP supports school choice; portable health savings; and portable private retirment investment accounts accounts – all at the option of individual Americans. The GOP has been a leader in expanding opportunities for savings and investment. See also the facts below on lower taxes. See also the facts below on lower unemployment. Lower unemployement and steady growth means more jobs for more families. By contrast, look at what the combination of economic stagnation and demographic disassimilation has done for the French: six days of rioting in not-so-gay suburban Paris.
Re: Americans benefitting from lower unemployment rate, see http://www.bls.gov: After the recession and 9/11 the unemployment rate peaked at 6.0% in 2003. Since then it has trended steadily downward. Since April 2005 it has hovered around 4.9% to 5.1% Meanwhile, the economy is growing at 3.8%, and has just passed 30 consecutive months of 3.0+ growth – an unprecedented record of sustained economic growth.
Re: Americans benefiting from lower taxes: this should be self-evident by now, even to dense lefties, but lemme ’splain it to ya. If you go to http://www.taxfoundation.org, you will see that the Bush income tax cuts moved millions of lower income taxpayers off the tax rolls entirely. Millions more now pay taxes in a new, lower tax bracket. Marginal tax rates were lowered for all taxpayers. 42 million taxpayers not only used deductions and tax credits to complete wipe out their tax liability, most of them also received a government check on top of that. In the process, the percentage of income taxes paid by middle and lower income taxpayers declined, and the percentage of income taxes paid by wealthy Americans actually rose.
In addition, the reduction in the marriage penalty and the increase in the dependent child tax credit provided a significant benefit to married taxpayers and families with children in all tax brackets.
Re: Americans “spread[ing] freedom and democracy to other parts of the world” who do you believe, the New York Times or your own lying eyes? There is now a fledgling Islamic democracy in Afghanistan. Iraq is beginning to function as a second Islamic democracy in the region. These people did not “invite” us in – they were not allowed to do so. But they are now glad we are there, they are glad their former oppressors are gone from power, and they want us to stay and help them rebuild their societies. Change is coming too slowly to Egypt and Lebanon, but recent changes in both countries hint at the promise of further democratic reforms. None of this would have happened without the foreign policy established by George Bush and the GOP after 9/11 – while the Democrats stuck their collective in the sand.
The evidence is all there in plain sight, for anyone to see. You just have to be as willing as this former liberal to see it and realize the truth.
November 2nd, 2005 at 3:01 pm#44 Mighty Analpylop
November 2nd, 2005 at 3:08 pmFirst, Wilson did not claim that the VP sent him. He said that the information he went to gather was requsted by the VP’s office (which is a different animal than the VP).
And I was not parsing his words, I was commenting on his intent: “she shouldn’t have had her husband sent to Niger” – in the context of his point, he WAS saying that Mrs. Wilson SENT her husband. That is reading what he was saying, not just looking at the pretty words (did you up the doseage of your meds yet?).
If you’re going to comment on what I say, though, at least address the issues and questions I posed in #13. Or would YOU rather parse words and not actually sustain an argument (oh, that’s right – you have only one argument for any point, and that being the one you are spoon fed by your masters). You are off topic. If you can’t focus, get offline now and call your doctor about those meds….
former liberal, blue state red,oh I just found this site, fake moderate, I used to be like you liberals, to right of you. Cut the fake bullshit. Nobody here buys your pathetic attempt to make your backward lame points. Do you really think progressives are as dumb as you? who were so easily duped by rightwing mouthpieces. An exercise in futility,keep wasting your time.
November 2nd, 2005 at 3:17 pmHey BSR, I aint read BS like that in a long while!
I will take only one point of your idiotic comments. The one about the rate of unemployment. I know you dont recall this, probably because you dont want to, but Bushlandia ordered the commerce department and the labor department to hold back all data on unemployment figures.
In other words, they would come out with 100,000 new jobs but fail to tell you that 85,000 people had lost their jobs.
If you do some investigation, as I have, you will find that the current unemployment rate is closer to 8% than 5%. Wanna bet’
November 2nd, 2005 at 3:51 pmBlue State Red,
Social Security is not in jeopardy, and the American people did not say that they want new retirement options. That point is a red hearing. The fact of the matter is, your liberties are being reduced at an alarming rate. You cannot make choices for your family that you once were able to do for the sake of, let’s take education. A 10 year old was investigated by the FBI for doing research on a bridge in the northeast for a school book report.
The unemployment rate is another red hearing, and this is widely known. Once one’s unemployment runs out, you are no longer counted. The true unemployment rate is not publicly known, but it is well known that it is far higher then what the government reports. Meanwhile, major corporations continue to move jobs overseas. Which is fine with me, if that’s what they choose. But the 3% growth is not a growth in the number of employed Americans.
In regards to tax cuts, here is a headline from the last census report: “Income Stable, Poverty Rate Increases, Percentage of Americans without Health Insurance Unchanged.” The income being stable can not be read as a positive, to the objective reader, I think, because as the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, the figures offset each other and therefore, seem stable. The poverty rate increasing is evidence that this is in fact what is occurring. 15.7% of our nation does not have health care. Employment covered individuals declined, government covered increased. Therefore, unchanged is misleading in this category as well.
As far as Iraq and Afghanistan are concerned, hundreds of thousands of people have been killed combining both theatres of operation. While the people of both countries, and throughout the region have repeated told us, they don’t want us there. The people of Iraq were safer and more secure under Saddam then they are under US occupation. The opium output from Afghanistan went from 55% of the worlds total in 1998, to 0% in 2000, and then up to 65% in 2004. So was it about “freedom?”
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/005647.html
November 2nd, 2005 at 4:00 pm“one need only look at the fact that the GOP supports school choice; portable health savings; and portable private retirment investment accounts accounts – all at the option of individual Americans. The GOP has been a leader in expanding opportunities for savings and investment.:
I would not call this choice, but a attempt to privatize everything the public cherishes. There has been no proven benefit and there never will be. The interests of profit always out weights the interest of the public. The public does not suppor the GOP on this and for good reasons too.
“Lower unemployement and steady growth means more jobs for more families.”
Here are the facts:
- Though overall employment has just regained pre-recession levels, we still have more than 700,000 fewer jobs in the private sector than when the recession began.
- Job quality has declined. Wages have not grown for three years. We lost nearly 3 million manufacturing jobs in the past four years alone, and last month, manufacturers shed another 25,000 jobs even as factory output increased.
- Health care is eroding. The number of uninsured Americans has grown each year since 2000, while the number with job-based health coverage has fallen and workers’ contributions to health care premiums, especially for family coverage, have skyrocketed. Today, 45 million Americans are uninsured; most are in working families.
- Guaranteed pensions are on the endangered list. Fewer than half of today’s workers have job-based pensions. One in four workers with access to 401(k) savings plans does not participate in them, and only a tiny sliver of individuals in these plans—around five percent—makes the maximum allowable contribution. Savings in 401(k) or IRA plans are less than $10,000 for roughly half of the households nearing retirement.
“Americans benefiting from lower taxes: this should be self-evident by now, even to dense lefties, but lemme ’splain it to ya.”
- President Bush’s tax cuts are the single greatest reason for the nation’s spiraling budget deficits. According to Congressional Budget Office data, the Bush tax cuts account for nearly half of the increase in the nation’s deficit since 2001. The tax cuts’ share of the deficit is three times larger than the share caused by new spending on domestic programs. Making these tax cuts permanent, as Bush proposes, will add $10 trillion to the deficit over 20 years.
- Unlike the budget cuts Bush now wants, which fall heavily on low- and moderate-income Americans, the budget-busting tax cuts Bush has pushed through overwhelmingly benefit the nation’s richest. In 2004, 60 percent of the benefit from the Bush tax cuts went to the 20 percent of households with average annual incomes exceeding $200,000.\
http://www.aflcio.org/issues/bushwatch/2006budget.cfm
“Iraq is beginning to function as a second Islamic democracy in the region. These people did not “invite†us in – they were not allowed to do so. But they are now glad we are there, they are glad their former oppressors are gone from power, and they want us to stay and help them rebuild their societies.”
Correction: Islamic republic, which Iran supports and praises and exactly opposite what the U.S wants.
The Iraqi’s are glad Saddam is gone, but they are not happy having the U.S theren as a recent British military poll has shown:
- Forty-five per cent of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified
- 82 per cent are “strongly opposed” to the presence of coalition troops;
- less than one per cent of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security;
- 67 per cent of Iraqis feel less secure because of the occupation;
- 43 per cent of Iraqis believe conditions for peace and stability have worsened;
- 72 per cent do not have confidence in the multi-national forces.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/23/wirq23.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/10/23/ixportaltop.html
Also, many critics think we are losing the war on terror:
- “We may be attacked by terrorists who receive their training in Iraq, or attacked by terrorists who were inspired, organized and trained by people who were in Iraq,” said Simon, a Rand Corp. analyst who teaches at Georgetown University.
- “(Bush) has given them an excellent American target in Iraq but in the process has energized the jihad and given militants the kind of urban warfare experience that will raise the future threat to the United States exponentially.”
- For Benjamin and Simon, the war on terrorism has cost taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars and failed to counter a deadly global movement responsible for attacks in London, Madrid, Bali, Indonesia, and Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt.
And not even al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, they say, could have dreamed the United States would stumble so badly in the court of Muslim public opinion.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051101/pl_nm/security_terrorism_dc
Now…what is all this truth your talking about? I can throw truth back at you too. BAM!
November 2nd, 2005 at 4:11 pm“Karl Rove was not indicted, and does not remain in “serious legal jeopardy†(no charges means no jeopardy).”
That is certainly untrue. Fitzgerald made a determination that Plame’s status was classified information. Rove divulged that information to Novak. So the only thing separating Rove from an indictment is the question of whether he divulged that classified information by negligence or intentionally. Negligence is bad, but it’s not a crime. Intentionally divulging classified information is.
November 2nd, 2005 at 4:58 pmI am an idiot. I agree
Chimpeach the bastards. They are all criminals.
This war was engineered to make the bush family and carlyle group rich beyond their wildest most evil dreams.
I am truly sorry, and I am truly an idiot for loving the republican party.
November 2nd, 2005 at 5:33 pmI too have seen the error of my ways,
I too am an idiot.
I am so sorry for spewing that reich-wing madness.
I shall sin no more.
November 2nd, 2005 at 5:34 pm# 58 and #59,
I am truly heartened you have seen the error of your ways. I absolve you in the name of Fitzgerald, Thinkprogress.org, and the Liberal Spirit. AMEN.
November 2nd, 2005 at 5:55 pmFine distinctions simply require mental capability beyond that of a right winger.
November 2nd, 2005 at 7:53 pmHey… seems to be working….
They’ve stopped posting their venom!
I LOVE this new strategy! Good Work, you- know- who!
Everyone:
In the name of Think Progress, Patrick Fitzgerald, and the Liberal Spirit,.. Amen!!
(I realized Think Progress should be the Higher Power to Mr. Fitzgerald. He is the “son”, so to speak, of justice….)
November 2nd, 2005 at 8:15 pmYou’ve got to keep up this new way of dealing with the haters. Even my 15 year old finds it incredibly amusing and productive.
(She also finds these hate mongers “disgusting”, in her words. I’ve done a good job, don’t you think?)
thanks
November 2nd, 2005 at 8:42 pmGood to see everyone on the same page now.
Let’s get organized and fight them over there in DC and not in our own backyard…..So I say,
Let’s turn the corner and Impeach the criminals today.
Stay the course of Truth, Integrity and Dignity.
November 2nd, 2005 at 9:12 pmP.S.: you-know-who Thanks and keep up the good work.
November 2nd, 2005 at 9:13 pmImpeach the lying bastards
November 2nd, 2005 at 11:38 pmMy bad, I finally read the indictment, and there is a conspiracy afoot that will be revealed during libby’s trial.
impeach em all
November 2nd, 2005 at 11:39 pmI was such a fool. I never researched who sent wilson to niger. Turns out it wasn’t his wife.
And I have been told that CIA people (whoever/whatever their status) never ever say they work for the CIA. And her fake employer shows that she didn’t want people to know where she worked.
She was outted by the administration and I believe cheeney and bush are in on it.
November 2nd, 2005 at 11:43 pmLOL. Glad everyone is on the same page now. Did you guys finally get those neuron chips surgically removed from your heads? Se, the truth doesn’t hurt that bad…you will get used to it:)
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:05 amWow! I must say, I am impressed. I honestly thought those posts were just sarcasm when I read them originally. Its good to know that despite all the venom that gets thrown back and forth around here, it still ended in us all coming to the same conclusion after researching the facts. :)
November 3rd, 2005 at 11:36 am#47 – “How does recommending her husband for the trip blow her cover? ….The more I hear about how bogus his statements were, the more I wonder, “Then why out his wife?” Coment by jb
November 3rd, 2005 at 2:13 pm** I don’t disagree with you – recommending her husband for the trip DOES NOT blow her cover -but IT DOES explain that the VP’s office was NOT behind Wilson’s trek to Niger – as he erroneously claimed. The media kept hounding the VP’s office to verify Joe’s bogus story. Not being satisfied with “we did not send her” – you know the rest.
#45 “And she uses the same lies and deception as Osama does. Not only is she not helping fight Osama – she IS Osama.
Honesty and integrity never touches terrorists and zealots. They’re below the human condition, they only know how to hate, kill, persecute and lie. They are an abomination of the human condition.”
Comment by RyANNE
Well, RyANNE – since you’re rooting for the terrorists to win (WHATEVER WILL DECIMATE GWB poll numbers!!) why not get fitted for that head scarf??? Your Mom must be soooo proud of her little….whatever. It’s a good thing you’re soooo RICH (like your friend OSAMA -he HATES GWB almost as much as YOU!!!HA!!!!) because you would have a hard time getting or keeping a job anywhere. Working and playing with others takes skills developed at an early age – you weren’t breast fed were you???? You remind me of the kind of kid who took the ball and ran (crying) home when you didn’t get your way…..
November 3rd, 2005 at 2:37 pm#73 – Wilson never said that the VP sent him. He said that at the request of Cheney, the CIA sent him. Big difference. You are arguing another GOP talking point (i.e., lie) – like Al Gore saying that he invented the internet. Learn the truth before you come here and post idiocies in front of the smarter segment of American society.
November 3rd, 2005 at 3:28 pmThese Republican apologists get issued their robot’s chattering orders (oh, I mean “talking points”) and they learn and repeat them like good soldiers. They are so dependable on this that they can be counted on to help keep the ruling class safely ensconsed even to the “good soldier’s” own detriment. To use a favorite nazi slogan which is a thing they can really relate to: “Jedem das Seine” (You get what you deserve). So go “good little soldiers and do your imperial master’s bidding. “Arbeit Macht Frei”!!
November 3rd, 2005 at 4:13 pmAlright, blue state red #16, since when do the Repugs want to allow families freedom to live as they see fit? Their fingerprints are all over people’s bedroom doorknobs and their doctor’s offices with the type of activist right-wing judges they want legislating their narrow brand of morality. The Repugs are sucking up to the religious right that is trying vehemently to change our country from a democracy to a theocracy.
November 3rd, 2005 at 4:31 pmI think it’s time for the Beverly Bushbillies to spend a couple of months at Club Gitmo.
November 3rd, 2005 at 4:35 pmYou know, enjoy the food, sample some of the legalized torture they’re so fond of.
Dear Elitist Idahog – Telling someone they were sent by the CIA at the behest of the VP’s office – a LITTLE pressure on the ol’ “truth-o-meter”, heh! Heh!!
November 3rd, 2005 at 5:01 pmI just don’t get the cognitive dissonance.
Cheney’s office wanted to confirm the Niger uranium story. They request CIA do so. The Operations shop sends Wilson to Niger for that purpose. Wilson states that the CIA sent him because Cheney’s office wanted to know whether the “yellowcake” story is true.
It’s not that complicated, unless you want it to be.
And, I find it fascinating that people who will buy anything Bush, Cheney, et al, are selling, call Wilson a “liar.” Irony, and hypocrisy, are alive and well in the modern GOP.
November 3rd, 2005 at 5:55 pmBlue State Red -
Re: Americans “rais[ing] their families as they see fitâ€.
Yeah. As long as it is the way the right thinks/says you should raise your family and as long as that family is as they define a family.
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:29 pm… The neocons are spinning like tops , aren’t they ? I want those lil’ talky-heads to just sit back , relax , and rest their worried minds . Here lil’ neocons , have a sandwich ! It’s got celery , onions , spices , all the perfect ingredients for stuff- … , er , I mean , a nice healthy sandwich , yeah ! The Democratic party will be fixing lots of them for the GOP , right up ’til Nov. 23rd . Then you lil’ neoconnies can go lay down , and take a lil’ nap – we liberals will take of you , I promise ! … ;)
November 5th, 2005 at 2:42 pmJoe Wilson wasn’t lying! He just wasn’t sure what the meaning of “sent” was….and I’m sure he was VERY concerned about his wife’s covert status as he ran naked across the pages of the world’s most famous newspaper. He’s a genius with an eye for detail….He’s GOT to be Irish cuz he sounds as deluded as I am….
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