In his column today Charles Krauthammer defends the constitutionality of Judge Alito’s decision that would have required a woman to notify her husband before having an abortion. (The Supreme Court later ruled it constituted an “undue burden.”) Among Krauthammer’s arguments:
In 1991, Judge Samuel Alito was asked to rule in Planned Parenthood v. Casey on the constitutionality of Pennsylvania’s spousal notification requirement, Supreme Court precedents on abortion had held that “two-parent consent requirements” for a juvenile with “a judicial bypass option” do not constitute an “undue burden” and thus were constitutional. By any logic, therefore, spousal notification, which is far less burdensome, must also be constitutional…
Krauthammer and Alito can’t understand that there is a difference between the relationship parents have with their children and the relationship a husband has with his wife. Just because a system of notification is acceptable between a child and a parent does not mean it’s acceptable between a woman and her husband.
Krauthammer also notes that, under the provision in question, “The married woman just has to inform her husband. Even less than that. She just has to sign a form saying that she informed him. No one checks.” Translation: This isn’t anything a woman couldn’t work around by lying.
Dr. Strangelove iz da Man!
November 4th, 2005 at 4:25 pmOnce again we see that conservatives believe lying is acceptable, even on a government-required form. Is it any wonder the whole bunch of them are going down?
November 4th, 2005 at 4:26 pmKrauthammer is a jackass. I read his columns occasionally because they are usually so outrageous that they make me laugh at him and the stupidity of those who agree with him.
November 4th, 2005 at 4:27 pmApparently, he states here that women are chattel, property owned by the husband, and to be held in submission to the authority of the husband.
He is throwback to the middle Ages.
You cannot even stay consistent in your own piece, can you?
Here’s what Krauthammer says:
Supreme Court precedents on abortion had held that “two-parent consent requirements†for a juvenile with “a judicial bypass option†do not constitute an “undue burden†and thus were constitutional. By any logic, therefore, spousal notification, which is far less burdensome, must also be constitutional…
Here’s what Judd says:
Just because a system of notification is acceptable between a child and a parent does not mean it’s acceptable between a woman and her husband.
But Krauthammer isn’t talking about a notification system between parent and child, he’s talking about a consent system between parent and child. They are two entirely different things!
Again, here’s what Krauthammer said:
…“two-parent consent requirements†for a juvenile with “a judicial bypass option†do not constitute an “undue burden 
And here’s what Judd says:
a system of notification… between a child and a parent
Not the same thing!
Later,
November 4th, 2005 at 4:31 pmWhat? In one case, it’s a CHILD asking for permission. In the other case, it’s an ADULT who is being told to notify a spouse, without regard to why the woman is not notifying the husband in the first place. By any logic it’s less burdensome? No. By good logic, it’s ridiculous!
November 4th, 2005 at 4:31 pmThe law in question gave several exceptions for women who did not want to notify their husbands: husband not the father, husband cannot be found, husband raped her, husband might abuse her.
And nowhere is there anything saying that the woman must get the husband’s consent, she must only give him notification. Not the same thing!
Now, does this mean I would agree with a law like this? I honestly don’t know. I mean, I know I would want to at least be notified if my wife was about to undergo any kind of medical procedures, and she would want to know the same about me.
However, I don’t see how such a law, or a ruling upholding such a law, necessarily means that, in the words of another poster, “women are chattel, property owned by the husband, and to be held in submission to the authority of the husband.” And I think anyone claiming such is letting partisan hysterics get in the way of reasoned debate.
Later,
November 4th, 2005 at 4:41 pmKrauthammer!
Sounds like the name of a Nazi commando.
Maybe the illegitimate son of Joseph Goebbels.
Yup, he is neo-Nazi to the core.
November 4th, 2005 at 4:42 pmSauerKrauthammer should remember that all are created equal and that if a woman has a right to act on a choice, she don’t need a man or her parents to get approval.
If he feels that women should ask permission to get an abortion, well then it should be fair that men ask their wives for permission to go out with the boys for a few drinks, maybe pick up a few prostitutes and
just get crazy.
If the wives say no, then the men do nothing.
November 4th, 2005 at 4:46 pmPoetic Justice
They are both notification systems. One of those systems requires consent and the other doesn’t. My point is it doesn’t matter. The systems of notification aren’t comparable because one is parent/child and the other is husband/wife.
November 4th, 2005 at 4:46 pmWhen Roe gets overturned, we won’t have to worry about any notification. Problem solved.
November 4th, 2005 at 4:49 pmOK, Cicero, Consent and notification are not the same thing! We do not live in a perfect world and sometimes it’s not SAFE to consent or notify, even if one is a minor!! Women are not property and will not be required to notify or obtain consent.
November 4th, 2005 at 4:50 pmStain, sadly, if Roe goes away there will be no more legal abortion, but there will be abortion. I shudder to think of the illegal abortion.
November 4th, 2005 at 4:53 pmNotification, shmotification. Here is reasonable debate: You must notify your husband, unless you don’t want to. Just check one of these boxes. But if you don’t check one of these boxes, then your marriage must be flawless! So here’s a phone. Go call your husband.
Hmmmmmm. Sounds reasonable to me.
November 4th, 2005 at 4:53 pmAnd if the law in question had been that a wife had to get her husband’s consent before getting an abortion, instead of merely giving notification (with exceptions), I could understand all the screaming that is being done about the case.
Also, haven’t there been several other cases where Alito has ruled to uphold abortion rights? I’m thinking of at least one that was a “partial-birth abortion” ban that he supported overturning.
Later,
November 4th, 2005 at 4:59 pmRyan, don’t forget. Riding a bike could cause reduction in sperm count. The wife might need to be notified in that case as well.
November 4th, 2005 at 4:59 pmRE #6:
Women are property to republicans
Now Ryan, that’s a little harsh, don’t you think? Most Repugnantans don’t see women as property, per se; more as children who never quite grow up, bless their silly little hearts.
Hence the “parent/child equals husband/wife” assumption.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:03 pmYea! Ban abortion, so we can go back to having back alley abortions performed. Right wingers are so smart.
Do these dim wits understand that women have been getting abortions for hundreds of years. They will continue to get them whether it is legal in the US or not. All you are doin by banning abortion is putting lots of young women at risk of dying from bad doctors in alleys ways in Mexico.
Fvcking morons. Stop trying to push your goddamn religion on other people.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:05 pmI think the husband notification statute in PA is way over the top in terms of govt. invasiveness. Just butt out, will ya?
Juvenile notification? I can see the reason for that.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:05 pmDoes anybody else think Krauthammer looks one of the extraterrestrial characters from the movie, “Men in Black”–the ones who have heads too small in proportion to their bodies? Mr. Krauthammer, feel free to contact us the next time your ship passes close to earth…
November 4th, 2005 at 5:07 pmEveryone calm down. Roe v. Wade will not be struck down any time soon — o matter who gets on the SCOTUS. The only way it will happen is through the legislature and that has no chance of happening.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:08 pmKrauthammer should stick to being an apologist for Israel.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:14 pmAs has been well explained by many other commenters (including lawyers and law professors with much more intellectual firepower than is demonstrated in most of the comments here), Alito was doing nothing more than attempting to “read the tea leaves” of Justice O’Connor’s confusing pre-Casey jurisprudence.
The question in the case was not whether spousal notification was a “good idea” from a policy standpoint. Instead, the question was whether the law passed by the Democratic Pennsylvania legislature and signed by the Democratic Governor of Pennsylvania imposed an “undue burden” (whatever that term means, especially considering that the Supremes can’t agree on a definition) on a wife who wanted to get an abortion.
Alito, after trying to understand what O’Connor meant in her previous decisions and trying to predict what she might do on the facts before him, argued that “spousal notification” was less of a burden on a wife than “parental consent” was on a child. Since “parental consent” had been upheld as constitutional, Alito concluded that “spousal consent” probably would be too. Unfortunately for him, O’Connor changed her mind on the subject yet again.
Not that I expect most of the commenters here to understand or care. Especially Mr. Neat.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:15 pmI am pro-choice. But I also think that abortions can be minimized. It can be done in part if the woman does not feel hopeless and helpless. That can be achieved by talking to the man at fault. I do not see what is wrong with notification. It is not a permission, it is notification. Being pro-choice does not necessarily mean being for increase in abortions. These are two separate issues. I am actually more for notification of the partner, than parents. Because partner can really change things mentally to the better by showing support. And even by not showing support, it makes woman’s choice a bit easier.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:16 pmI am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but I think the reasoning behind Alito is that he was trying to square the notification law with the “undue burden” standard that Justice O’Conner had established.
In his own words:
Taken together, Justice O’Connor’s opinions reveal that an undue burden does not exist unless a law (a) prohibits abortion or gives another person the authority to veto an abortion or (b) has the practical effect of imposing “severe limitations,†rather than simply inhibiting abortions “‘to some degree’†or inhibiting “some women.â€
Now, does his dissent mean that he believes that “women are chattel, property owned by the husband, and to be held in submission to the authority of the husband.�
Again, in his own words:
Whether the legislature’s approach represents sound public policy is not a question for us to decide. Our task here is simply to decide whether Section 3209 meets constitutional standards.
and:
Although the plaintiffs and supporting amici argue that Section 3209 will do little if any good and will produce appreciable adverse effects, the Pennsylvania legislature presumably decided that the law on balance would be beneficial. We have no authority to overrule that legislative judgment even if we deem it “unwise†or worse.
Doesn’t sound like Alito thinks that women are property.
Later,
November 4th, 2005 at 5:16 pmJudd - good argument.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:19 pm#13 - “Stain, sadly, if Roe goes away there will be no more legal abortion, but there will be abortion. I shudder to think of the illegal abortion.” - Zookeeper
November 4th, 2005 at 5:20 pmNo, Zoo, if Roe “goes away” then states will decide their own abortion laws. No need to wring your hands and shudder….yet!!
And yet:
“It is worth noting that at the same time the state of Pennsylvania was arguing that the state had a legitimate interest in compelling a woman to inform her husband before she obtained an abortion, the state declined to make the conceptually similar demand that an HIV-infected man inform his wife that he carried a potentially deadly infectious disease that could be sexually transmitted…The overwhelmingly male legislators of the state of Pennsylvania thought it perfectly appropriate to intervene in a woman’s marriage and deny her the freedom to make reproductive choices without coercion, threats, or worse from her husband…And yet, should that same husband carry HIV, the state would have left informing his wife of this fact to his discretion, and would require from him no proof or signed affirmation that he had, in fact, informed her.”
Apparently spousal notification only applies, and is only intended to apply, to women.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:20 pmWell, Mr. Ellis “O Wise One” Wyatt. That bird don’t fly either, assuming you’re doing justice to Alito’s written opinion. Based on your synopsis, Alito just as easily could have envisioned the notification requirement for an adult woman to be more burdensome, since an adult has more rights than a child. I mean, of course Alito’s personal opinions have nothing to do with his legal opinions. He was just trying to follow O’Connor. How considerate.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:25 pm#20…right wingers will probably be happy to see these women die and claim that they deserved it for trying to murder a child.
Now..the real issue is this: how will they feel when one of their daughters die from the hands of a bad doctor?
only then will conservatives see the benefit of having abortion as an option.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:26 pmC’est un boche . Very little respect for hausfrau there.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:27 pm#22- “Does anybody else think Krauthammer looks one of the extraterrestrial characters from the movie, “Men in Blackâ€â€“the ones who have heads too small in proportion to their bodies? Mr. Krauthammer, feel free to contact us the next time your ship passes close to earth…
November 4th, 2005 at 5:28 pmComment by Amy — November 4, 2005 @ 5:07 pm”
*****Amy - I’m not in the habit of making fun of people’s looks - especially the disabled or wheelchair bound. Thank you, though, for demonstrating that compassionate/progressive is an oxymoron in your case.
Why is this even a question? How is it that legislators, bloggers, the media et all refuse to see the obvious? Chances are if a woman refuses to ask a man for permission chances are that their is some kind of undue burden to begin. Conventional wisdom would lead you to believe that most women consult with their husband before getting an abortion. Ask yourself why she wouldn’t. Probably abuse, infidelity, medical conditions. Maube she was planning on leaving him and he might not let you go. All of these place an undue burden on women and renders the undue burden argument moot.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:35 pmIn the near future, after Roe v. Wade gets overturned, back alley abortions, while tragic, will serve the greater good. Without the option of murdering their babies, women will be more apt to take the responsbile course of action, and KEEP THEIR LEGS CLOSED, thus increasing the overall moral well-being of the populace. If they should die while undergoing an illegal abortion, well, the hard truth is that there will be one less MURDERING WHORE in the world, thus increasing the overall moral well-being of the populace. There is no down-side, as far as I can see.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:37 pm#37. That’s fine and dandy, until that WHORE turns out to be your daughter, mother, sister, aunt, etc…
How’s the view from your perch?
November 4th, 2005 at 5:41 pmBei,
I’m not sure who you are quoting here, but in any case, the ones to take up that problem with would be the Penn. legislature. Judges are not supposed to decide if a law is “fair”, but whether it is Constitutional. Altio thought so in his dissent, but the majority opinion, and then later the Supreme Court, did not.
Dave,
I’ve only been skimming through it, but you can find a copy of Alito’s opinion here:
http://www.confirmthem.com/?p=1764#comment-62642
Yes, of course personal opinions are going to have an affect on legal opinions. A personal basic moral framework will inevitably color their actions, it happens with everyone and everything. Now, does that mean that, say, the ACLU supports the basic principals of the KKK if they help them out in a free speech case? No, it means they support upholding the First Amendment for everyone, no matter how distateful their beliefs.
From what I’ve seen so far, Judge Alito was in a similar position.
Later,
November 4th, 2005 at 5:41 pm#38 The view is fantastic, especially knowing that once Alito is confirmed, the Supreme Court will begin righting the wrongs done the Supreme Court for the last 30 years.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:45 pmCicero
Fair enough. I’ll read the opinion.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:45 pm#38. We’ll see. Enjoyed it. I have to go sodomize my boyfriend now. Oh, and read a legal opinion.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:50 pmDr. K is a brilliant man who has a job as a conservative writer for the Washington Post. Every time he writes something for publication he has given everyone the opportunity to read, Not Listen to in a vacum of singular delivery without disent or commentary on the exact words he said, unlike most of , well pretty much all of AM radio. So at least be pleased that he has constructively, maybe not the words that soothe or appease but, delivers an objective argument to address a particular point. I don’t always agree with him but he is a professional and should be respected for having the balls to put it into writing. Let me ask you all this , How many articles have you ever been able to read by Rush Limbaugh? I’m sorry the Post does us all a great service by providing access to vevrything they have published and that says a lot about itself as a vehicle for info whether you agree with it or not. Lissete Model a greeat photographer once said ” the most mysterious thing is a fcat clearly stated”
November 4th, 2005 at 5:52 pmThe spousal notification should not be a requirement for having an abortion and it is not similar to getting parental consent and Krathammer is being obtuse.
The primary reason for having a spousal notification (according to the pro-life agenda) is obviously so that if the spouse wants her to carry the pregnancy to term, then he can try to stop her from having the abortion- in other words, its an obstacle. In a perfect world, it shouldnt be an issue, but this is not a perfect world and it is the woman that must carry the child if that decision is made against her wishes and despite advances in gender roles, it is still women who are largely responsible for raising kids. While it takes two to tangle it is only one that gets pregnant.
The rationale for the parental notification is mainly that a minor may not be able to fully understand the gravity of the situation, the risks and the consequences and therefore parental notification is triggered (I dont agree with that btw). But in my opinion, for the pro-life folks, its merely another roadblock to abortion- they know that most teens may be afraid to tell their parents that they want an abortion and requiring parental consent means that the parents political and religious views on abortion become key in deciding whether or not their teenager will have the abortion- which is interesting if you are considering, say, a 17 year old.
November 4th, 2005 at 5:54 pmThe Penn law was ridiculous. Does a woman have to notify her husband before she buys something? Or does anything else, for that matter?
November 4th, 2005 at 5:57 pmFire and Brimstone must be of the GAY persuasion. His campaign to “KEEP THEIR LEGS CLOSED” certainly is not the program of any male with an honest interest in the opposite sex. I believe that my wife, sister, and daughter as citizens of the United States and protected by the constitution have the freedom of choice relating to their health. Men do not have babies and until FandB delivers one in pain and agony, he should “KEEP HIS MOUTH CLOSED”, and his FLY buttoned!
November 4th, 2005 at 5:58 pm# 42 That is the problem with you liberals. You determine what is right and wrong based only on law, and give no credence to moral judgement. The liberal moral compass is so out of whack, they allow the murder of unborn babies, but doggedly defend the rights of condemned killers.
November 4th, 2005 at 6:04 pmF&B
You live in a fantasy world dumbass.
People will not stop having sex for pleasure anytime soon.
And will will continue to get abortions as they have been for hundreds of years.
You religious bigots will not win against progress. Go fvck yourself.
November 4th, 2005 at 6:06 pm#47
“You determine what is right and wrong based only on law, and give no credence to moral judgement”
Who’s moral judgement? Yours. Fvck you. You’re a piece of sh!t. Why should anybody in their right mind listen to your dumb ass?
November 4th, 2005 at 6:08 pm# 46 Ever consider your fate had your mother decided to exercise her “freedom of choice relating to her health”, and murdered you while you were still in the womb?
November 4th, 2005 at 6:08 pmRight on Frank. In case any of you guys want to experience the thrill of birth, just stick a preheated preheated plumber’s soldering iron up your butt for about 20 minutes.
November 4th, 2005 at 6:09 pm#48 If we have to condone murder of helpless babies, and unrestrained sex with no consequences in the name of “progress”, than to hell with progress.
November 4th, 2005 at 6:10 pm#50
“Ever consider your fate had your mother decided to exercise her “freedom of choice relating to her healthâ€, and murdered you while you were still in the womb?”
Yes. I wouldn’t have to put up with crazy ass fvcktards like you that want to impose your religous belief on other people. Idiot.
#48
Good, go jab a sharp stick in your eyesocket about 6″, so we aren’t foirce to listen to your bullsh!t anymore.
November 4th, 2005 at 6:16 pm#53=>#48
November 4th, 2005 at 6:20 pmSB, are you contemplating suicide?
The fundamental question here is if you believe in a right to privacy or not. If you do, then the state cannot compell someone to divulge private matters to another person, even a spouse. If my wife got an abortion without my knowledge, I’d be mighty upset. I might have reason to divorce over “irreconcilable differences”, but I don’t have any material claim over her.
Put it another way… should the state compell you to tell your spouse who you voted for in the last election?
Such rights are, however, always limited with regard to children- in much the same way we disenfranchise 8 year olds because the Power Rangers would really suck as elected officials. Actually, when compared to the current Legislature/Administration… let me retract my last statement.
November 4th, 2005 at 6:21 pmhahahah …everyone go look at #33, #20
ok…now look at #37
the idiot in 37 seems to disregard the fact that
maybe ‘whores’ may apply to their daughters or neices if they too decide to get a back alley abortion.
(do i need to mention that getting pregnant by someone you love doesn’t make you a whore?)
November 4th, 2005 at 6:22 pm#53 I have not mentioned religious beliefs, or God for that matter, in any of my postings so far. This has more to do with basic rights and wrongs than religion. Of course, people like you have completely lost sight of basic rights and wrongs. You are part of the base problem in our society. NO MORAL COMPASS.
November 4th, 2005 at 6:24 pm#56
November 4th, 2005 at 6:26 pmYou ignore spousal abuse! There is a difference between love and marriage.
I agree with Alito. Only I think notification should apply only to Catholics. Then I think Catholicism should become the official religion of these United States.
November 4th, 2005 at 6:28 pm#57
The fact that you chose Fire and Brimstone for a screen name implies religion you stupid fvck.
November 4th, 2005 at 6:35 pm#54
Wrong type of ‘cide.
November 4th, 2005 at 6:36 pm#59
November 4th, 2005 at 6:38 pmSo Catholicism should replace freedom? That may be a bit better as non-Mediterranean Catholics, unlike southern Baptists, respect the sanctity of human life. Its a close call.
#62
You mean they are anti-war?
November 4th, 2005 at 6:40 pmFire and Brimstone. No one asks to brought into this world. Thousand of babies die daily throughout the world without one iota of concern by the UN or the United States. They starve, eventually some become slaves to sexual predators. The existence of children in third world countries is an abomination. Maybe your “KEEP THEIR LEGS CLOSED” plan should take on a world wide mission to correct this problem. If my mother’s health was in jeopardy due to childbirth, I am sure she would make the right choice in relation to the circumstances and her own survival. How would you deal with the same situation if it were your wife?
November 4th, 2005 at 6:40 pmHowever, I don’t see how such a law, or a ruling upholding such a law, necessarily means that, in the words of another poster, “women are chattel, property owned by the husband, and to be held in submission to the authority of the husband.†And I think anyone claiming such is letting partisan hysterics get in the way of reasoned debate.
Later,
Comment by Cicero
Whoa, Nellie! Did you see Kickapoo’s picture? I went into partisan hysterics when I saw it! Apoplexy too!~
He’s a double bagger, and I can see why he would want the notification! After the poor girl sobered up, or recovered from the roofies he slipper her, she’d want to abort. Spawn of the Devil!
November 4th, 2005 at 6:41 pmNO MORAL COMPASS.
Comment by Fire and Brimstone
I followed my moral compass once. I got lost.
November 4th, 2005 at 6:43 pmEveryone needs to calm down.
I fail to see how the abortion dispute is indicative of a failure of our “moral compass.” Unless you are arguing that the people of almost every other industrial democracy (which accept the use of abortion on the woman’s request) are immoral?
Maybe we better recognize that morals are not absolutes.
November 4th, 2005 at 6:44 pm# 46 Ever consider your fate had your mother decided to exercise her “freedom of choice relating to her healthâ€, and murdered you while you were still in the womb?
Comment by Fire and Brimstone
Considering the fact I have to share the country with complete fvckwits like you, I wish one of our mothers had done it. I don’t really give a damn which one.
November 4th, 2005 at 6:45 pmHad your mother “murdered you while you were still in the womb” you would have died as an unthinking, unfeeling mass of cells. In short, you wouldnt have had the capacity to care.
November 4th, 2005 at 6:50 pmThe biggest problem is the fact that Fire and Rimlicker seems to think that because people don’t share his moral values that we don’t have any moral values.
F&B go to a right wing site. They will love you there and make you king of your whole entire PC.
November 4th, 2005 at 6:50 pmFire and Brimstone’s rants give one the impression of the Gerber Baby being “murdered”.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:15 pmMost abortions are carried out within the first few weeks of union of sperm and egg. It is a collection of cells. There is no heart, brain, etc. Certainly the beginnings of what will become a life, yes. The decision to have such a procedure is already heart wrenching enough. I just find I am offended by the constant “murdering babies” talk.
Life does not begin at conception.
Wacko from Waco,
So now we’re getting into personal attacks, huh?
That’s fine. I notice you have nothing to say to rebut my argument. Judging by the name you gave yourself, I’m not surprised.
Go home. I don’t debate petulant children.
…
Actually, strike that. Stay, and just keep typing. Every key you press just gives the right-wingers that much more ammo.
Later,
November 4th, 2005 at 7:24 pmFrom a purely scientific stand point, life does begin at conception. The important question is why should we care? Its a bunch of cells. And before someone vomits out the usuall quasi-religious argument, if you really care about the “potential for life”, please dont be a hypocrite- stop jerking off right now- all those potential lives are being wasted.
The real test should always be “is the life meaningful”- its the same calculous we apply when we say giving mice cancer to test cosmetics is ok, but euthanizing retarded children is not.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:24 pm#71 Just keep telling yourself that. You can rationalize yourself straight to hell, baby killer.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:26 pmThat’s exactly right. These people always talk about killing babies. They want people to think that people are having abortions at 8 1/2 months into their pregnancy. When in reality, most get abortions the minute they miss their first period.
A gooey mass of blood, byle and puss is not a baby you morons.
But then again, these are the same people who think the world is 6,000 years old and people used to live to be 800 years old. Read it, it is in Numbers.
See, my parents had an idea when I was a child. They would have my brother and I read the entire Bible from front cover to back cover over the course of a year. That was a bad mistake on their part. Why? Because when you take a verse here or there, they say important things. But, when you read it like a book from front to back cover, you discover just how silly the whole thing is.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:27 pm#58
November 4th, 2005 at 7:28 pm…i didnt ignore it…
i was focusing on Fire and Brimtits usage of the word ‘whore’ for women who get pregnant outside of marriage.
spousal abuse is a very serious problem indeed.
Cicero-
November 4th, 2005 at 7:29 pmYou are exactly right. Every adolescent rant and attack these mental midgets engage in only gives people like me the upper hand. They can’t win any arguements, so they simply name call. I love it!
#73
“The real test should always be “is the life meaningful—
That there would be the rub. That is why the rigth wingers won’t use it. If this question was raised about any of them, the answer is quiet clearly No.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:30 pmWhat is this “hell” you speak of? I think ya’ll are evil for eating cows. They’re holy. Everyone should stop eating cows RIGHT NOW!
November 4th, 2005 at 7:30 pmWas sarcastic btw
November 4th, 2005 at 7:31 pm#77
If these are only adolescent rants, you are more than welcome to go the fvck away.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:31 pm” Every adolescent rant and attack these mental midgets engage in only gives people like me the upper hand.”FireAndBrimWit
And what is this adolescent rant? Hypocrisy. The guaranteed trait of the ever hysterical and irrational republican nitwit.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:31 pm“From a purely scientific stand point, life does begin at conception. ”
By who’s definition? A sperm and an egg are alive from a biological and cellular perspective. So are bacteria and other single celled organism. The fact is republicans and religious zealots are morons and unscientific idiots. They substitute mythology, bigotry and delusion for reality and fact. They’re insane because they are raised or choose to be, but irrespective of their particular reason - they’re nuts.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:33 pmActually, SpongeBob, or whatever your name is, I do have to get going. It’s Friday night, so it’s time to go. Get a life, get off the computer, and get yourself a woman, dude. Just don’t sleep with her until you are married. Peace, brother.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:34 pmI think Spudge_boy is free to sleep with someone whenever he wants to. Love how you like to control people’s lives there.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:35 pm“Actually, strike that. Stay, and just keep typing. Every key you press just gives the right-wingers that much more ammo.
Later,
Comment by Cicero :
Reichwing fascist like you don’t need ammo, just like the niger document you fabricate everything you need to perpetuate your delusions. CONservatives have ‘opinions’ and ‘faith’ which means they don’t have facts or rational minds. It’s a delusion you perpetuate, and that’s why your ridiculous retard for a faux president only has a 35% approval rating. You and the rest of your cabal of ineptitude daily show that you’re incapable of cleaning the toilets for a legitimate government, let alone actually deliver one.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:36 pmI think eating cows is immoral. Stop eating cows Fire. You’re going to hell for your sinful ways.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:36 pmFire&Brimstone,
Men who are ‘anxiously masculine’ like you generally need a boyfriend, not a girlfriend. It’s you who should get out, and actually figure out why you’re such a retarded and hysterical excuse for a man. A good boyfriend would do you a world of good.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:37 pmIf the test were ‘is life meaningful’, then no republican would clearly be granted continued life.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:39 pmIt’s always funny to see the hypocrisy of those who claim to have values.
The highest divorce rates are among evangelical christians. The lowest are among ‘athiests and agnostics’. Clearly when christian men talk about ‘getting a girl’, they mean it in the property sense - as their ability to retain those women in marriage seems to be pretty pathetic. Maybe it’s because they don’t have sex before marriage, and therefore they’re as inept at that task as they are at political and scientific endeavors.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:41 pm#84
“Actually, SpongeBob, or whatever your name is, I do have to get going. It’s Friday night, so it’s time to go. Get a life, get off the computer, and get yourself a woman, dude. Just don’t sleep with her until you are married. Peace, brother.”
Well, I have to start with: Way to be really original with the name calling. I haven’t heard that 100 million times from NeD, I-R-I, Lyle, Alexxa, BSR, …….
Since I am the Technical Media Manager at a large technology company, I ain’t getting off the PC anytime soon. I get paid rather good money to be on my PC.
AND since I already have a 17 year old daughter and my girlfriend has a 10 year old and I don’t mind having another one, I will have sex with my girlfriend tonight, unprotected.
“Peace brother” Go fvck yourself with a razor barb stick you freak.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:49 pmPlease tell me how the integrity of a non-viable collection of cells, that may, if undisturbed, eventually become a person, trumps the wants/needs/desires of a single fully functional thinking, rational human being?
Perhaps we should get rid of abortions in favor of removing the fetus from the womb, and leaving it on the street. Leave it up to chance/fate/god.
They tend not to last long though, so you better move quick if you’re thinking of adopting.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:50 pmWell, I’m out. Just one more parting shot on the way to the club. All of you here are on the way to hell, and you know it. In the back of your mind, you know it’s true. You can rationalize your immorality all you want. But when the moment of truth arrives, and you expire, and go on to meet your maker, what will you say to Him? Do you think he will buy all of your bullshit arguments and rationalizations? Do you? Ask yourself that when you look in the mirror tonight, and be honest.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:50 pmSpudge,
He’s just pissed because no woman will ever sleep with him until they get him hooked in marriage so they can dump him for half of his measly assets. That’s what’s so pathetic about the stupid redneck rubes. They’re too dumb to realize they’re the duped idiots.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:52 pm“All of you here are on the way to hell, and you know it.”FiredUpMoron
Oh please, you’ve clearly never even read the bible, or the historical documents surrounding it. What the hell would an idiotic and barely literate retard like you know about religion.
I’ve forgotten more today about religion, than you’ve ever learned.
People like you who always spout about religion, are the ones who generally know the least, and live the worst. You’re a hateful, stupid, idiot.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:53 pm#93
He’ll probably ask “So my son, did you fall into the hog wash of the Christian who believe that my son was white?”
Adn I will say “No sir, I told them all to fvck off, just like you told me.”
Fvck you F&B and your holier then thou attitude. BTW, Jesus didn’t teach that either.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:54 pm“But when the moment of truth arrives, and you expire, and go on to meet your maker, what will you say to Him? “FiredUpRetard
I’ll say thank god you didn’t make me as stupid, ignorant and hateful as those evil republicans.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:54 pmSpudge,
What’s really sad about these retarded Talibanshees is that some of them actually believe their tripe. It just goes to show you that religious zealot behaviors are a symptom of mental illness for a reason. These freaks are just crazy!
November 4th, 2005 at 7:56 pmOh and F&B, in Matthew, jesus particularly admonished the christians who stood on the street corner and proclaimed their faith and belittled others as ‘behaving like pagans’. You really should read the bible more, it might show you how ‘unchristian’ your pagan actions are. But then again, reichwing christians tend to be the most ‘immoral’ group of people I’ve ever met. So clearly you sought out this immorality because of your evil nature - so you’d better be the one who tends to your soul.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:58 pmWon’t it just freak these morns out when Jesus does come back and still fits the description in the Bible. You know “skin like bronze” and “hair like the wool of a sheep.” Sound like a black guy to me. Not to mention the area where he came from.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:58 pmFire-
Consider this on your way to the club- 100 years ago people would have been saying the exact same thing about your choosing to dance.
November 4th, 2005 at 7:59 pmdrtomaso,
Not to mention if he ‘drinks’. Lets not forget prohibition!
Fanatics are such fools and freaks.
November 4th, 2005 at 8:01 pmIs Kraut a lawyer, or just a stupid turd? Inquiring minds want to know!
November 4th, 2005 at 8:04 pmOne more shot while I wait for my limo……. All of your heretical slander against God and Jesus is only going to earn you more suffering and pain in eternal damnation. Repent now, ye sinners. Repent!
November 4th, 2005 at 8:04 pmWhy Krauthammer Doesn’t Get It
Wherein Charles Krauthammer thinks a woman’s relationship to her husband is the same as a child’s relationship to her parents, and encourages women to lie.
November 4th, 2005 at 8:04 pmWhy do they come here?
It’s not like I run into a Christian church and yell “You should all be Jewish!”
I don’t go into a Mexican restraunt and say “Chinese food is better!”
It just doesn’t make sense to me at all.
November 4th, 2005 at 8:05 pm#104
Were’nt you leaving like 4 posts ago. Don’t let us hold you up. You are free to go get in your limo and ride off a cliff for all we care.
November 4th, 2005 at 8:07 pm“Fudge-packer-boyy………… someone has to make this conversation interesting. That is why I am here.”FirePacker
Homophobia is a clear sign of a repressed homosexual, and it’s a mental illness that needs treated. Thanks for confirming what I figured. The main reason men sign up for the ‘no sex’ clause, is because they’re closeted homosexuals trying to avoid women in the first place. Thanks for confirming that this is how you’re particularly disturbed. I knew I was right, but you clearly demonstrated this beyond my expectations.
November 4th, 2005 at 8:14 pmLimo? Only Nerds, drag queens and Morons take Limos. Clearly you’re a closet freak of the truly republican kind…
November 4th, 2005 at 8:15 pmJust so you know, overturning Roe does not mean that abortion is banned, or that “there will be no legal abortions. It will mean that the states, through their elected legislatures, will decide whether abortion is legal.
Also, understand that just because you believe that spousal notification is bad thing (a view 28% of americans hold), or even that spousal notification sends the message that women are chattel, doesn’t mean that such a law is unconstitutional. The test Alito applied was whether it was an “undue burden.” Is notifying a spouse (if no exceptions are applicable) an undue burden? Perhaps it is. But the question certainly is debatable, no?
November 4th, 2005 at 8:31 pmI wonder what kind of “club” he is going to?
Perhaps a “KKK” meeting?
Hmmmmmmm….
And, Spudge_Boy:
Thanks for the laugh of the night! Your #106 post was hilarious!!!!
November 4th, 2005 at 8:42 pmSpudge,
The come here because paranoid personality disorder makes the ‘voices’ want to silence disent. They’re kookoo for coco puffs in otherwords.
November 4th, 2005 at 8:49 pmIts retarded that the chickenhawks believe that abortion is the most important issue facing this country today when they support the slaughter of innocent children each and every day.
Ryan, they’re more than cookoo, they’re sadistic and twisted too.
November 4th, 2005 at 9:05 pmSusan,
Remember the BTK killer was a republican office holder. Cuckoo, twisted and sadistic are common characterists of republicans whackos unfortunately for america.
November 4th, 2005 at 9:37 pmJ-
The problem is that issues of civil rights (and I firmly believe the right to privacy is a civil right) left to the states is an open invitation to break down equal protection under the law. Why should the most fundamental of rights only apply to citizens lucky enough by circumstances to live in “blue” states?
I happen to live in the NYC metropolitan area. I am pretty sure my wife’s right to have an abortion isnt going away any time soon. I fear, however, for her less fortunate counterparts that live in such exotic locales as Kanasas, Alabama, and both Dakotas.
Should seperate but equal education be an issue left up to the states? How about voting rights? If I recall correctly, we tried those routes a while back, and it didnt work out so good. Only the most extreme of extremists would argue this was good or proper.
November 4th, 2005 at 9:45 pm#77
F&B,
Just because I take WfW to task for his immaturity, doesn’t automatically place me on your side. In fact, you’ve done more to bring the level of discussion down than anyone.
Later,
November 4th, 2005 at 10:03 pm#50 F&B That is one stupid argument. Just THINK about what you wrote. It’s asinine.
November 4th, 2005 at 10:09 pmYOu have to ask yourself, “what is the real purpose of notification?” Why should a woman have to notify anyone, including her husband, of her intention to have an abortion? Alito’s reasoning, as it happens, was based on the number or percentage of women for whom spousal notification would be a problem, and he concluded that because the percentage would be so small (figuring that most wives would be not only notifying their husbands, but working through the problem with their husbands) that spousal notification did not meet the “undue burden” standard. Turns out he was wrong; that the undue burden existed by reason of their having to notify at all. It doesn’t matter that spousal consent is not a requirement.
With respect to parents having to be notified when a minor child is seeking an abortion, I think you again have an attempt to legislatively mandate what most people would prefer to see happen in families: for kids to go to parents when in trouble, and for parents to provide support and care for their child. In fact, that probably is how things happen in most families. The problem lies with those minors whose family situations are such that notifying a parent places the minor in some danger.
I have always felt that parental notification laws were really “prohibition by parent,” and a way to get closer to outright banning of the procedure.
All of the energy that goes into this kind of legislation would be better spent working on ways to prevent pregnancy, through education and availability and access to birth control. At some point, one has to begin to prioritize the goals. If reducing the rate of abortion is at the top of the list, one simply cannot cut off all avenues to preventing pregnancy, in the misguided belief that to do so will stop people from engaging in sexual activity. Abstinence should be taught and discussed as one option for pregnancy prevention, but should not be the only choice.
November 4th, 2005 at 10:24 pm#86 Ryan,
“Reichwing fascist like you…”
Heh. I admit I’ve only recently found out about Think Progress, and have only commented in one or two threads, so I don’t have much of a “paper trail” here (yet). But I don’t think you can take anything I have said so far and come to the conclusion I am a “Reichwing fascist”. At least, you can’t, and still be honest.
“…don’t need ammo, just like the niger document you fabricate everything you need to perpetuate your delusions.”
I don’t know about the “niger document”, but I do know Joe Wilson lied his ass off when it came to the yellowcake allegation.
“CONservatives have ‘opinions’ and ‘faith’ which means they don’t have facts or rational minds.”
Maybe with some on the “Reichwing fascist” side of the right, but I’ve also seen the opposite to be true, with (some) liberals (on the looney left side) solely being motivated with notions of fairness (defined by whom?) and appearance and “feelings”. They make noises about being compassionate and progressive, yet have supported policies that (for example, the Great Society) have destroyed minority families. The total opposite of the phrase “Esse Quam Videre” — To Be, rather than to Seem. Many liberals only appear to care about the Seem part, IMNSHO.
“It’s a delusion you perpetuate, and that’s why your ridiculous retard for a faux president only has a 35% approval rating.”
When did I ever say I voted for Bush?
“You and the rest of your cabal of ineptitude daily show that you’re incapable of cleaning the toilets for a legitimate government, let alone actually deliver one.”
Not my cabal, sorry.
And check out my response to F&B a little earlier in this thread. I don’t thibk you’ll be able to pigeon-hole me as easily as you think.
Later,
November 4th, 2005 at 11:34 pm“I don’t know about the “niger documentâ€, but I do know Joe Wilson lied his ass off when it came to the yellowcake allegation.”
This shows you’re a reichwing. This talking point has fully been debunked - do some more research, I recommend mediamatters.org, and there’s lots of other sites with complete references to ALL of the documents on the matter.
So far I’m not convinced.
As for liberals relying on ‘notions of fairness’, that’s called being a considerate adult - clearly something your experience is limited in.
November 5th, 2005 at 12:50 am#119
“And check out my response to F&B a little earlier in this thread. I don’t thibk you’ll be able to pigeon-hole me as easily as you think.”
So you can and will be pigen-holed, just with difficulty?
November 5th, 2005 at 1:15 amAG,
That’s the nature of republicans, there’s always a pigeon hole the reside in somewhere. They’re so funny to because they all think they’re different, but usually fit only one of 3 or 4 molds..
November 5th, 2005 at 1:19 amNeocons are freaks. Enough said.
November 5th, 2005 at 2:05 am#120
“This shows you’re a reichwing.”
Sigh. Very repetative. Might as well train a parrot to scream out “Reighwing, reighwing, awk!”
“This talking point has fully been debunked - do some more research, I recommend mediamatters.org”
Ha! That’d be like me telling you to go to Fox News to verify something. George Soros is the Richard Mellon Scaife of the left.
“…and there’s lots of other sites with complete references to ALL of the documents on the matter.”
Oh, like the Senate Select Intelligence Committee Report? Like the British continuing to stand by their claims? OK…
“As for liberals relying on ‘notions of fairness’, that’s called being a considerate adult - clearly something your experience is limited in.”
Oh, so it’s “fair” to treat people differently based on their race or gender? (affirmative action). Well, that’s good to know, I guess…
Later,
November 5th, 2005 at 2:20 amCicero, your talking points have been debunked by all media markets. We all know that you neocons are criminals and accept the idea of jail time for you.
You’re a sad and pathetic brainwashed idiot. Your kind has been exposed. Its over, admit it. Don’t drop the soap.
November 5th, 2005 at 2:27 am#125
My only response to this last comment was gales of laughter. Fine, have it your way. Libby will go to jail, Rove will go to jail, Cheney will go to jail. Bush will go to jail. Every last person in America to the right of Michael Moore will go to jail. No, wait, Bush will be tarred and feathered first, then go to jail. Sure, fine, whatever.
Thank you for the laughter, and for bringing a smile to my face. I know the knowledge of this will be like ashes in your mouth, and that makes me smile all the more. It is much appreciated.
Again, thank you.
Bye (for now)
Later,
November 5th, 2005 at 2:31 amThey’re having a special on soap on rope Cicero. Buy 1 get 2 free at Walmart.
November 5th, 2005 at 2:40 amOops, stop your purchase! Bending over is what you do best.
November 5th, 2005 at 2:42 am“Oh, like the Senate Select Intelligence Committee Report? Like the British continuing to stand by their claims?”SissyRove
The Senate report in fact does not discredit Wilson, it in fact discredits the Niger memo. You clearly haven’t read it, but I can point you to the relevant sections.
The Butler report also discredited the Niger document, and while they whitewashed the whole affair for blair, the CIA says that the secret intelligence that the Butler report cites is ‘unconvincing’.
So you’ve drunk the koolaid you retarded partisan.
“Ha! That’d be like me telling you to go to Fox News to verify something. George Soros is the Richard Mellon Scaife of the left.”
Oh that’s so tired and out of left field. First of all Soros is not a ‘lefty’, he’s a libertarian capitalist. Only a fool would make this comparison, but that seems to be you. Not to mention that unlike faux news, media matters actually CITES THE WORK and LINKS YOU TO IT. See they’re an ACTUAL fact checker, something a retarded fool like you who gets their news from partisan hacks wouldn’t understand.
“Oh, so it’s “fair†to treat people differently based on their race or gender? (affirmative action). Well, that’s good to know, I guess…”
That’s a great questions. Republicans have been treating people fairly based on race for decades and you seem to have no problem with it. Checking up on you and holding you accountable for that mistreatment seems fair to a sane person - but clearly you don’t qualify there either.
November 5th, 2005 at 4:31 amWhen I see the name Krauthammer I just click to another site.
November 5th, 2005 at 5:59 am#119
“…don’t need ammo, just like the niger document you fabricate everything you need to perpetuate your delusions.â€
I don’t know about the “niger documentâ€, but I do know Joe Wilson lied his ass off when it came to the yellowcake allegation.”
You just did it right there. You did in your response exactly what Ryan was talking about and you believe it, which is the worst part
November 5th, 2005 at 11:45 am#124
“Like the British continuing to stand by their claims?”
Ummm, no they are not. They are having governmental investigations just like us.
November 5th, 2005 at 11:48 amThe republicans care nothing of women’s right to control her body. Spousal notification is ridiculous at best if you’re going to get the crap beat out of you or you are separated and your husband can’t be located. There are dozens of locational/exmarital notifiaction questions that could arrise during the debate.
Soccer moms, time to wake-up. The party who you thought was going to keep you safe from the terrorists really doesn’t care about you, your life, or your choices. I guess it could be worse, you could live in Kansas.
November 5th, 2005 at 12:02 pmYou just don’t understand mysoginy. Women must be systematically disenfranchised of their status as “persons” and reinculcated as walking semen ashtrays and incubators.
Throw in a little housekeeping and meal-cooking and you have your compliant, unequal sex slave/domestic servant.
Yet, like children, mere servants don’t have any responsibilities.
Hence, although some believe abortion should be a crime, you will never see a woman criminally prosecuted for having one.
In the interim, while abortion remains an alleged “right,” that “right” is conditional upon obtaining the man’s sub silentio or express permission.
Women who permit themselves to be divested of responsibility, have no rights, nor should they. This oppression affects every woman in this country and we will never progress as a society any further until justice is served.
There can be no peace without justice.
November 5th, 2005 at 12:23 pmAlthough married, I retain the right to make final decisions about my body.
November 5th, 2005 at 12:40 pm“My only response to this last comment was gales of laughter. Fine, have it your way. Libby will go to jail, Rove will go to jail, Cheney will go to jail. Bush will go to jail. Every last person in America to the right of Michael Moore will go to jail.”
You just don’t get it. This is not about a war between the right and left. This is about corruption in our current administration. This is not just about who is right and who is wrong. I can tell you depend on the right wing media for all your information because you repeat all their talking points exactly. You are not repeating any ideas of your own. Most conservatives who come on here repeat the same informaiton in unison. This is why Ryan ridicules your debate tactics, because they are based on others talking points. You do not have any fresh ideas of your own, you recycle everything you hear.
If you could step aside from politics and view our current state from a neutral perspective, I am sure you would be just as angry and disturbed as us. Like they always say–if your not angry, then your not paying attention.
November 5th, 2005 at 1:37 pm#99 - Rabbi RyANNE - “jesus particularly admonished the christians who stood on the street corner and proclaimed their faith and belittled others as ‘behaving like pagans’.”
November 5th, 2005 at 2:19 pm****Pardon me for correcting you, teacher, but Jesus was chastising the Pharisees. You knew, that - your fingers just weren’t weren’t up the “brain speed”.
MightyWindbag,
The Pharisees were pagans. Mightingwindbag=fool.
November 5th, 2005 at 2:28 pmWhen Roe gets overturned, we won’t have to worry about any notification. Problem solved.
Comment by Stain on a Blue Dress
This moron actually thinks that will happen? Bwahahahaha!
Just wait until more of these Abramoff e-mails come out. The ones to and from Ralph Reed should be a hoot.
Consider one memo highlighted in a Capitol Hill hearing Wednesday that Scanlon, a former aide to Rep. Tom DeLay, R-Tx., sent the Coushatta Tribe of Louisiana to describe his strategy for protecting the tribe’s gambling business. In plain terms, Scanlon confessed the source code of recent Republican electoral victories: target religious conservatives, distract everyone else, and then railroad through complex initiatives.
“The wackos get their information through the Christian right, Christian radio, mail, the internet and telephone trees,” Scanlon wrote in the memo, which was read into the public record at a hearing of the Senate Indian Affairs Committee. “Simply put, we want to bring out the wackos to vote against something and make sure the rest of the public lets the whole thing slip past them.”
November 5th, 2005 at 2:36 pmWacko from Waco,
So now we’re getting into personal attacks, huh?
That’s fine. I notice you have nothing to say to rebut my argument. Judging by the name you gave yourself, I’m not surprised.
Go home. I don’t debate petulant children.
…
Actually, strike that. Stay, and just keep typing. Every key you press just gives the right-wingers that much more ammo.
Later,
Comment by Cicero
Collect all the ammo you want. Guns too. It didn’t help David Koresh or Randy Weaver and it won’t help you. Oddly, I used to be quite sympathetic to them both at one time. Then the right came to power. If you are to the right of Michael Moore, that’s the end you will meet. That’s your fate.
November 5th, 2005 at 2:42 pmOh, yeah… yer one fugly other mucker.
November 5th, 2005 at 2:43 pmThis moron…
Well, I’m out. Just one more parting shot on the way to the club. All of you here are on the way to hell, and you know it. In the back of your mind, you know it’s true. You can rationalize your immorality all you want. But when the moment of truth arrives, and you expire, and go on to meet your maker, what will you say to Him? Do you think he will buy all of your bullshit arguments and rationalizations? Do you? Ask yourself that when you look in the mirror tonight, and be honest.
Comment by Fire and Brimstone
And Kickapoo (I’m a centrist wimp!) Joy Juice…
“And check out my response to F&B a little earlier in this thread. I don’t thibk you’ll be able to pigeon-hole me as easily as you think.â€
Make me bust a gut!
November 5th, 2005 at 2:53 pmOne more shot while I wait for my limo……. All of your heretical slander against God and Jesus is only going to earn you more suffering and pain in eternal damnation. Repent now, ye sinners. Repent!
Comment by Fire and Brimstone
No way! I call bullshit! He’s got to be a parody troll!
November 5th, 2005 at 2:58 pmAmy - I’m not in the habit of making fun of people’s looks - especially the disabled or wheelchair bound. Thank you, though, for demonstrating that compassionate/progressive is an oxymoron in your case.
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Political correctness from the right when it suits them. Dr. K is a Straussian asshole and a neocon and it matters not one jot that he may be intelligent, (in your estimation but who the fvck are you, dumbass?) or write well. And if he hadn’t have been drinking and driving….
November 5th, 2005 at 3:03 pmFor all the talk about abortion, I always think a surprising fact of the US is that it has some of the most liberal abortion laws in the world. More liberal than most Western Europe, Britain, and Japan. That’s just a little fact I’ve always found weird. As for requiring a women to inform her wife of an abortion, I think that it should be required since the baby would also be the husband’s baby. He should at lest know what is happening to his child. If the child’s not his, well, that is a more complicated situation and am not sure about what to do.
November 5th, 2005 at 4:36 pmi’ve just read through a good deal of the postings here and have a few things to say.
- first, though i have personal moral qualms against abortion, just as i think kiling in the name of nation, god whatever is wrong, i think the underlying situation for a woman aborting or not is a very personal choice that she should have. (the scale of her decision is nothing compared to setting in motion events that take the lives of hundreds or thousands of lives of living human beings). i can’t imagine making that choice is an easy one (short of aborting due to rape). certainly many(most?) women must have deep misgivings after the fact until they are able to come to terms and move on. it shouldn’t be legislated by government at any level. if her relationship with the ‘father’ is a good one then she’ll talk with him about it, law or no law. it’s something she’ll live with so it MUST be her choice!
- to this fire and brimstone person (and other religious fanatics), please consider the following…
on the one hand we have ‘Jill’. she is at heart a decent person. raises her kids selflessly, gives her time and money to charities to the benefit of the needy. she has never harmed another human in her whole life. her life is devoted to helping others. she is also an atheist.
then there’s ‘Bill’. an evil son of a bitch since childhood. in and out of prison his whole life. has not done a decent thing for another human being his whole life. yes, even has resorted to murder just to see what it was like.
now both are on their deathbed. ‘Jill’ dies a happy, contented woman. no regrets. remains an atheist to the end. ‘Bill’ asks for his sins to be forgiven and dies a born again christian.
now as i understand the current fundamentalist take, ‘Jill’ would be denied a seat in heaven because she did not believe in jesus christ, despite a lifetime of good works. ‘Bill’, on the other hand would be welcomed with open arms, despite his late and admittedly self serving ‘conversion’ to christianity after a lifetime of evil.
do you really believe in a god that would not embrace all souls? does this also mean that all non christians are doomed to hell? what about all those who died before jesus’s lifetime? that’s not the kind of god or religion i want any part of.
November 5th, 2005 at 6:45 pmOzark:
November 5th, 2005 at 7:06 pmWOW! Truly inspiring and thought provoking.
However, I am unsure as to the capacity of the fanatical people’s ability to REALLY think about what you just wrote. I hope I am wrong. I hope they do take your comment to heart, and think about such a God.
For all the talk about abortion, I always think a surprising fact of the US is that it has some of the most liberal abortion laws in the world. More liberal than most Western Europe, Britain, and Japan. That’s just a little fact I’ve always found weird. As for requiring a women to inform her wife of an abortion, I think that it should be required since the baby would also be the husband’s baby. He should at lest know what is happening to his child. If the child’s not his, well, that is a more complicated situation and am not sure about what to do.
Comment by mnjosh
Total bullshit. All Americans have been spoon fed this total bullshit for the last 30 years by the conservative right, and “useful idiots” like this just lap it up with out question. He might as well live in the old USSR.
November 5th, 2005 at 7:44 pmI have only recently become a “Blogger”> Think Progress is one of my favorite sites to visit. I usually arrive here from a link via “BuzzFlash”. Ryan Neat always has a good point to make.I like the way he attempts to hold the misinformed responsible for their opinions,no matter how low the level of “grey matter” they possess is. As to the abortion issue in general, why is it that those who oppose also oppose making availiable those things that would greatly reduce the need for them? Such as the “morning after pill”, RU486, condoms, birth control pills, even sex ed. And yet we are constantly seeing ad, after ad, after ad, hyping a variety of products designed to create raging hard-on’s and apparently that is just fine by them. If F&B comes back, I would like him to explain that particular juxtapositional moral standard. Hard on = Yeahh Baby!! Consequences of using the hard-on, NEVER!!! But the women don’t have a right to choices?!? I think if a man wants to influence a choice that, by rights, should belong to the woman they should have to sign an irrevokable, unassailable legal document, (no appeals allowed)claiming that they will forever be responsible, in EVERY way for any child, then fine they can offer their opinion on the subject, otherwise, mind your own business. And what another person does with their body falls into that category. and those who oppose abortion should get off their self-righteous pudendums and immediately adopt every child in this country currently trapped in the foster care system. But I won’t hold my breath….
November 6th, 2005 at 6:32 amRyan Neat - just a note of general support. I see your posts here from time to time, and usually am at least 95% sympathetic. Your style, dynamic and general attitude of liberty and zero tolerance for rightwing robots are completely consistent with mine. I fight the good fight with posts in other online forums, and appreciate occasional notes of support like this one, though posting the truth is its own reward. Because battling hypocrites, liars, fascists and all-of-the-above is often a laborious, lonely task. But occasional posts from people chiming in remind me that I speak not only for myself, but also for many others just reading, who agree, but want these insane attacks on our freedom and sanity to end, and hesitate to post rather than make a bigger deal out of what is usually self-evident, but these days less than perfectly popular. Keep up the good work - you’re in good company.
November 6th, 2005 at 11:41 amKrauthammer is white supremecist who should be deported to Isreal (or to Guantanamo?) - him and all the other Zoinist (5th columnists) who have used the United States as a base for faciliating the colonialization of Palestine. Him, Pearl, Wolfowitz, Crystal and the whole U.S. front of the Zionist movement - along with the Christian revelationist allies who underpin them will detroy America unless we stop them…
November 6th, 2005 at 12:32 pmOzark, Blue, Ryan- We need more athiests to improve the moral standing of our country! I’m confused about one thing though, wh