Think Progress

Why Bush’s Case On Iraq Was Different From Clinton’s»

The Bush administration’s talking point these days in defending its use of false pre-war intelligence is to blame Clinton. Scott McClellan said last week that critics “might want to start with looking at the previous administration.” Sen. George Allen (R-VA) repeated the mantra on CNN this Sunday: “[R]ecognize that even the Clinton administration thought Saddam posed a threat.” And Bill Kristol writes in the Weekly Standard that the White House should “fight back” by pointing out that Clinton administration officials “believed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.”

To justify the war against Iraq, the Bush administration made a number of exaggerated and misleading claims about the Iraqi threat that went far beyond the public statements issued by the Clinton administration. Going beyond the argument that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction, the Bush administration made a unique case on two specific fronts to justify the war: the supposed connections to al Qaeda and the Iraqi nuclear threat.

The administration argued that the evidence in these two areas amounted to a “grave and gathering threat” in a “post-September 11th world.” On the eve of the Iraq war, Bush said:

The danger is clear: Using chemical, biological or, one day, nuclear weapons obtained with the help of Iraq, the terrorists could fulfill their stated ambitions and kill thousands or hundreds of thousands of innocent people in our country, or any other.

The imagery was clear: terrorists, such as those that attacked on 9/11, could do far greater damage with nuclear weapons, and the Iraqi regime was helping to make that scenario a reality. In fact, the evidence behind the supposed Iraq/al Qaeda connection and the evidence on the nuclear threat have turned out to be the weakest links in the case for war. See the evidence below:

LIES ABOUT IRAQ/AL QAEDA LINKS

What Bush Said: “Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases.” [10/7/02]

What They Knew: The Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) reported in February 2002 that the source of the claim – a detained al Qaeda terrorist — “could not name any Iraqis involved, any chemical or biological material used or where the training occurred. As a result, ‘it is more likely this individual is intentionally misleading the debriefers.’” [WP, 11/6/05]

What Bush Said: Saddam is “a man who loves to link up with al Qaeda.” [9/28/02]

What They Knew: “One week after the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, White House counterterrorism director Paul Kurtz wrote in a memo to national security adviser Condoleezza Rice that no ‘compelling case’ existed for Iraq’s involvement in the attacks and that links between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein’s government were weak.” [WP, 7/22/04]

What Bush Said: Saddam is “a threat because he is dealing with al Qaeda.” [11/7/02]

What They Knew:
“Responding to a presidential tasking, Clarke’s office sent a memo to Rice on September 18, titled ‘Survey of Intelligence Information on Any Iraq Involvement in the September 11 Attacks.’ Rice’s chief staffer on Afghanistan, Zalmay Khalilzad, concurred in its conclusion that only some anecdotal evidence linked Iraq to al Qaeda. The memo found no ‘compelling case’ that Iraq had either planned or perpetrated the attacks.” [9-11 Commission]

LIES ABOUT NUCLEAR THREAT

What Bush Said: “The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.” [2003 State of the Union]

What They Knew: The administration was warned at least three times not to make the claim that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa. Also, the CIA said the “Brits have exaggerated this issue.” [Guardian, 7/10/04]

What Bush Said: Iraq “has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production.” [2003 State of the Union]

What They Knew:
“Ms. Rice’s staff had been told that the government’s foremost nuclear experts seriously doubted that the tubes were for nuclear weapons, according to four officials at the Central Intelligence Agency and two senior administration officials.” The day before Bush’s State of the Union address, the IAEA told the Security Council that it had found no evidence of a revived nuclear weapons program in Iraq. “‘From our analysis to date,’ the agency reported, ‘it appears that the aluminum tubes would be consistent with the purpose stated by Iraq and, unless modified, would not be suitable for manufacturing centrifuges.’” [NYT, 10/3/04]




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194 Responses to “Why Bush’s Case On Iraq Was Different From Clinton’s”

  1. deegahl Says:

    The biggest difference between the two is that Clinton succeeded in isolating Saddam and turning 3/4ths of his country into a “no-fly zone” and Bush decided isolation wasn’t enough and he needed war. Oh, “and don’t forget, this is the man that tried to kill my father, Bush said.” Clinton followed what Bush 41 wrote about in his book(Taking Bagdad was not worth the consequnces or the benefits)and he appears to have been correct.


  2. kindness Says:

    I don’t remember the Clinton Administration ever invading Iraq. Does anyone?

    No they didn’t. Classic case of bushco nat taking responsibility for their actions and trying to blame someone who wasn’t even at the party. This is republican responsibility? To act like children?


  3. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    This “mantra” will be used to choke the lying left when they attack Bush’s reasons for the war. The right-wing is going to hit back and hit back hard. Liberals have had a nice year, but this year will end.

    AND if you think for one second we will let the left propogate lies about the President and the war without retaliation, you’re fooling yourself. We will swiftboat your asses just like we did Kerry. Then you will all cry smear.


  4. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    Kindness - talk to me in a year. Let’s see how much success you have lying. Probably as much as John Kerry and Tom Daschle did.


  5. Spudge_Boy Says:

    Yea, Ned is going to swiftboat us. By that do you mean make up lies that will be debunked?


  6. Darth Filibustrous Says:

    #3 - Then retaliate and debunk each point laid out above! Or are you holding off until you get Ken Mehlman’s e-mail ?


  7. progressive and proud Says:

    We laugh in your general direction, NeD. *giggle* I think you need some oxycontin.


  8. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    #5 - Swifties did NOT make up lies. They showed Kerry for the war criminal and LIAR that he was. Just like the Swifties, we will take your own words and use them against you. Cindy Sheehan will be splattered all over GOP ads - “Do you want people like this influencing your leaders?” The response will be NO.

    This campaign season will be fun because Republicans are sick of liberal lies. AND unlike you idiots, we know how to win elections.


  9. Ohioan Says:

    Thinkprogress,

    Another subtle Repub. talking point that’s being propogated by all, including Sen. Pat Roberts, is that Phase II is ONLY about whether “manipulation” took place to change the intelligence product. In reality, it’s more about how the final product was taken and THEN exaggerated in public statements. This talking point needs to be strongly debunked.


  10. RemoveBush Says:

    NED NED NED,

    You have a serious issue. The Democrats don’t have to propogate lies about the war, Bush and company are doing that just fine by themselves.

    I suppose that we don’t torture either? Is that why Bush and Cheney are trying so hard to ensure that they cannot be held legally responsible for torture if they are caught?

    Wake up and smell the coffee.

    Also, I see that you are still acting like a little child. Can you at least one time hold a conversation like an adult?


  11. jjw Says:

    Yes Ned, did you ask your doctor’s permission before discontinuing your medication?


  12. Terrytheturtle Says:

    Hmm, there’s this: http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/powell-no-wmd.htm

    http://www.kurd.org/ newsletters/ 20041010055933.html

    Scott Ritter was right - the WMD were destroyed by the sanctions and inspections, Powell and Rice agreed. Clinton is irrelevant.

    Your a sad, delusional individual Ned, but I suppose your mother still loves you.


  13. dano347 Says:

    “AND unlike you idiots, we know how to win elections.”

    Comment by The Northeast Dilemma — November 7, 2005 @ 1:38 pm

    Replace “win” with “steal” and you’re right on target!


  14. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    #10 - Americans are not opposed to torture if it means saving lives. The Abu Ghraib scandal exposed liberals as the terrorist sympathizing lot that they are.

    Thank god you people weren’t around during World War II. FDR would have never been able to win the war with people like you comforting the enemy.


  15. Darth Filibustrous Says:

    #14 - FDR would have choked himself to death if he had read your posts, NeD. I mean seriously, invoking FDR? You?


  16. dano347 Says:

    Ned, isn’t it time to switch to IRI? You’re getting your butt kicked again, better switch.


  17. Elvis Says:

    NED,

    You keep using “we” when you speak of what the “right-wing” is up to, what its plans are and how “they” will carry it all out. i.e. post #3.

    What part do you play?

    When you say “we” then it’s assumed that “you” are actually taking an active part in the play. If so, which part are you playing? A cheerleader perhaps? Someone who cheers for a team no matter what the situation without critical thinking or objective reasoning? Some call these types puppets. Are you one of these people? Or are you actually in the meeting rooms with all the “big wigs?”

    “States are not moral agents.” -Chomsky


  18. Ryan Neat Says:

    NED, your life is a lie.

    Torture DOES NOT WORK, but it sure does ‘get off’ psychopath and S&M perverts like you…


  19. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    #15 - do you support Truman’s decision to nuke Hiroshima? Yes or no.


  20. RemoveBush Says:

    NED have you ever served in the military?

    I have, and I can tell you that torture does not provide factual information. If you start cutting my toes off one by one, I’m going to make stuff up just so you stop.

    Torture is an ineffective way of obtaining information. Yes, you MIGHT obtain a very small portion of information that MIGHT be true. However, more than not the information received from torture is going to be inaccurate.

    The only way to get information effectively is to continue to interview the individual and catch them in their differences in their stories. This is more effective than torture and much more reliable.

    Tell me what your military experience is and what evidence you have that shows torture is more effective than the standard interview method.


  21. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    Ryan - you should answer that to - was the US wrong to bomb Hiroshima? I am interested in what liberals define as a just war.


  22. Spudge_Boy Says:

    #8

    “Swifties did NOT make up lies.”

    Yes they did. It doesn’t matter if you put not in all capitals. It doesn’t change the fact that they lied and were shown to be liars. So, go back to your little dream world where everything is puppies and sugar plums. Just don’t watch or read the news as your party goes down.

    I should say “We will CRUSH you.”

    You’re a freaking joke NeD.


  23. Ryan Neat Says:

    NED’s just a stupid republican teenage girl. She’s so stupid and in over her head she can’t even see it.

    America hates republican values.
    America hates republicans.
    America wants democrats in office.

    The latest poll showed that 55% of americans want DEMOCRATIC CONTROL OF CONGRESS, and only 30 some percent favor republicans.

    REPUBLICANS ARE LOSERS, LIARS, CHEATERS AND THEIVES - REPUBLICANS ARE UNAMERICAN, UNDEMOCRATIC FASCIST TERRORISTS.


  24. dano347 Says:

    Calling Aphrodite! Ned’s on the ropes!


  25. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    #20 - I have many concerns over the war, one of them is not torture. I am more concerned about our boys dying and what their families are going through. I don’t care about terrorists unlike liberals.


  26. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    Ryan - while you have polls, I have 55 senators. One is more tangible.


  27. Spudge_Boy Says:

    #14

    “Americans are not opposed to torture if it means saving lives.”

    Oh yes they are you psycho.


  28. Ryan Neat Says:

    NED,

    Japan attacked us, you’re not only OFF TOPIC, you’re off your meds. Just because Republicans FAKED EVIDENCE, COMMITTED TREASON BY OUTING A CIA AGENT and WAGED AN ILLEGAL WAR BY DECEIVING CONGRESS, you can’t face it. You’re a DELUSIONAL PSYCHOPATH who can’t face the fact that you’re just another lying, cheating traiterous terrorist! You’re just a stupid, hysterical hateful little girl NED.


  29. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    #27 - prove it


  30. Terrytheturtle Says:

    Thing is 90% of the people at Abu Ghraib were released. Seems to me they were not bad people after all. Perhaps ramming a broomstick up their rectums turns them into bad people. It would me, I know that. The trouble is, how do you know that someone is a ‘bad guy’ before you ram the broomstick up their rectums?

    So you see, if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time Ned, maybe you’d get a broomstick rammed up your rectum as part of finding out if you are a bad guy or not. Maybe you’d be OK with that, maybe not. Perhaps you think that because you are a pimply white guy, they will let you have access to a lawyer and something called ‘due process’. Maybe you think that only people with turbans and headscarves need the broomstick up the rectum, because they are all bad guys…

    And the FDR stuff? Did you notice which side was putting the broomsticks up the rectums as part of their war effort?

    “Americans are not opposed to torture if it means saving lives” - the “we’re don’t torture as many or as bad as them” defence. So you have no principles at all Ned, I guess I knew that already.


  31. Spudge_Boy Says:

    #26

    “Ryan - while you have polls, I have 55 senators. One is more tangible.”

    And they are walking away from the Bush administration and not looking back. They want to get reelected. Bush isn’t going to help them do that.

    Say goodbye to your stranglehold.


  32. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    Ryan - yes, but Germany did not attack us.

    No one committed treason in Plamegate either. I think it’s called obstruction of justice and lying - but, don’t let facts get in the way of your propoganda.


  33. dano347 Says:

    “I don’t care about terrorists unlike liberals.”

    Comment by The Northeast Dilemma — November 7, 2005 @ 1:49 pm

    Unconscious irony or mental disorder?


  34. Avg Mercan Says:

    I feel much safer knowing that red meat is hanging off of some poor Iraqis schmeckel while hungry dogs look for dinner……… as we speak.


  35. Spudge_Boy Says:

    #29

    55% of Americans want you scumbags out of office. That is the proof.


  36. Ryan Neat Says:

    NED,

    The fact that you don’t mind torture just confirms to everyone that you’re unamerican and a psychopath.


  37. Darth Filibustrous Says:

    #19 - NeD - “liberals” are independent thinkers, so we don’t have a unified view based on Ken Mehlman’s e-mails. But me personally, I think the bombing of Hiroshima was one of the worst evils ever perpetrated on humanity.

    The diary of President Truman’s Chief of Staff, Adm. William D. Leahy, wrote that “the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. … In being the first to use it, we … adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages.”


  38. Spudge_Boy Says:

    #32

    “No one committed treason in Plamegate either. I think it’s called obstruction of justice and lying - but, don’t let facts get in the way of your propoganda.”

    The investigation isn’t over. You don’t have any idea who will ne charged with what. STFU.


  39. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    Torture is something the left uses to undermine the war effort and denigrate our troops. That is TREASON. You people are hoping and praying that we lose the war.

    It is sad when you cheer your enemies. Traitors.


  40. dano347 Says:

    “No one committed treason in Plamegate either. I think it’s called obstruction of justice and lying - but, don’t let facts get in the way of your propoganda.”

    Not so fast, sparky. The ump still has to clear the sand from his eyes.


  41. RemoveBush Says:

    NED, so then you have not served in the military and you have no idea of what it is like to be in a combat situation! Perhaps you should join, and then you might have a better understanding of what our “boys” are going through.

    Let me say that when you torture someone, you make their drive, and hatred stronger. Therefore, you do nothing to weaken the terrorist you make it stronger.

    This is the difference between arm chair warriors like you and a real American. We realize that if you wear down the enimy that you obtain more useful information then if you just force it out of them.


  42. Sylvia Zimmer Says:

    NED
    give it a rest, will you.
    It’s always the same: It’s Clinton’s fault, Kerry is a liar and you won and we lost…..
    We’re getting tired of reading this over and over again, aren’t you getting tired of TYPING it?
    Oh wait, my bad, you can COPY and PASTE *g*


  43. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    DF - that’s interesting. At least your honest.


  44. Ryan Neat Says:

    NED, Germany and Japan were part of the same alliance. When Japan attacked us, so did germany by alliance. Your ignorance of history is as profound as your ignorance of the present. No wonder you’re a republican, you’re so stupid and foolish you don’t know anything about anything!


  45. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    Ryan - go raise taxes and spur growth. You’re dipshit who probably got beat up in school.


  46. Ryan Neat Says:

    “Torture is something the left uses to undermine the war effort and denigrate our troops. That is TREASON. ”

    Blah, Blah, Blah. What would a traitor and treasonous republican who lies to congress and fabricates evidence to go to war illegally know about treason. What would a republican fascist who steals election, and bombs abortion clinics know about treason.

    NED your existence in this country is treasonous by its very existence. REPUBLICANS ARE ALL TRAITORS TO AMERICA!


  47. Spudge_Boy Says:

    #45

    Yes, tax breaks for the rich is a much better policy.


  48. Ryan Neat Says:

    NED,

    I’m Irish, I learned how to fight when I learned how to walk, and I can honestly say that I’ve never been beaten up once in my life, but clearly you have… No wonder you’re such a hysterical and hateful little girl.


  49. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    Ryan - sure. You got beat up - that is why you are angry.


  50. Ryan Neat Says:

    Raising taxes on the wealthy is a PROVEN economic stimulus. But then again, Delusional republicans live in a hysterical fantasy land where swiftboat lies are truth, and forged Niger documents are true. Republicans are consistenly delusional retards and religious terrorists.


  51. Ryan Neat Says:

    NED,

    I can also honestly say I’ve never gone to ‘beat up’ someone either. You know, when people view the world in only those who beat up, or get beaten up, it’s a clear sign of Paranoid Personality disorder. You really should go to therapy, you’re not well…


  52. Ryan Neat Says:

    NED = Neurologically and Emotionally Disturbed


  53. Avg Mercan Says:

    NED, go kick a begger, blame some victims, or go and savagely attack someone, then call them savages etc.,etc.


  54. The Fly-man Says:

    Remember all you have to do to win elections is put Gay initiatives on 11 states and out of FEAR homophobes, please read current republican voters, the election is yours. Mission accomplished. I love the bumper stciker that says” I wasn’t using all of my civil liberties.” Untill everyone who hated the dope smoking hippies for ruining the country over Viet-nam are dead they just live in fear of anything the big flag waving rightous pols tell them . Karl Rove is a genius and unfortunately peversly motivated.NED do really think it’s fair to ask a crucial question that was made 50 years ago. Context of times is everyting and in the current context I’d say you arguments are light weight you would make a lousy bully and I’m sure your blind faith in the current administration has crippled your ability to see past some really good arguments being made. The issue is transparency, when the administration demanded so much secrecy, legitmate questions were raised and instantly stiffled and their answer was National Security. Come on INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW.


  55. Elvis Says:

    NED,

    My opinion, the bombing of Hiroshima AND Nagasaki was genocide; equivalent to Hitler’s or any other that has occurred before it or since.

    “States are not moral agents.” -Chomsky


  56. Ryan Neat Says:

    FlyMan

    You don’t have to be a genius (Rove) when the voting machines are rigged…


  57. Joe Sixpack Says:

    Ned, you’re such a puss. What’s that sissy-assed wording about the rightwing “hitting back and hitting back hard” in #3? And then bringing up the swiftboat bunch like there is any threat left to their slimball tricks. I’m almost ashamed to claim you as a fellow conservative.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but are you one of Arnold’s girlie-men, or are you just naturally effeminate when making a statement? I mean, the liberals and progressives would accept you for it, but us rightwingers and rednecks are starting to think you sound a little punk. Trust me, NED, some guy like I-RIGHT-I or Real American will want to beat the crap out of you for it.


  58. progressive and proud Says:

    Hey NeD, we here think abortions are fun and try to get pregnant often just for the sheer enjoyment. We love it when America is attacked too. Actually, we are starting a petition in Iran to see if they will attack us here on our soil. We think it is really cool too, when our soldiers are killed. Oh, yeah, and we here at TP hope we lose the war in Iraq. Don’t forget that we worship terrorists.

    Doesn’t that sound stupid? That would be your argument, NeD - just stupid.


  59. Alberto Torquemada Gonzales Says:

    We’re buggering them over there, so we don’t have to bugger them over here…


  60. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    JOE - STFU. You’re an idiot and I could careless what you think about anything. Most conservatives I know thought th Swiftboats did the public a service.


  61. Darth Filibustrous Says:

    Back to the subject of the main post, who all here thinks “But.. but.. Clinton said there were weapons too” is one of the most sissy talking points Mehlman ever came up with?


  62. progressive and proud Says:

    NeD doesn’t get out much - obviously.


  63. Ryan Neat Says:

    Somebody call NED’s mom and tell her to take the computer away from her. She’s too young and childish to be playing with adults.


  64. Ryan Neat Says:

    The republicans have to lie, but the truth never supports their position or the delusions.

    The republicans lied about Iraq, because Israel wanted Iraq to go away. They were still mad at their missile attacks from the first gulf war, and this was merely a war of vengeance and lies.


  65. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    #61 - it’s not a talking point - it’s true. Was anyone in this blog outraged when Clinton bombed Iraq on the eve of his impeachment? Doubtful.

    AND I am sure if Kerry were elected, the war would suddenly be a noble cause among the radical left in this blog.


  66. progressive and proud Says:

    #63 HA! I was thinking the EXACT same thing. I was going to post that I heard his mommy calling. But then I remembered his mommy doesn’t love him or he wouldn’t be so insecure as to HAVE to post here with us - those that are closest to his mommy to him.

    Sad, but funny.


  67. progressive and proud Says:

    Stupid NeD. We don’t follow others blindly. That’s you.


  68. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    PP - I am the one with problems when you folks have to resort to name calling???? Shouldn’t you be working your Republicans right now?


  69. Alberto Torquemada Gonzales Says:

    Just wait until you see what we’re going to do the day we’re impeached. Clinton was a pussy!


  70. Terrytheturtle Says:

    NED, you started the name calling back in #4. F***wit.


  71. Ryan Neat Says:

    NED,

    You justify a full scale invasion, simply because Clinton and THE UN bombed Iraq. Not only are you comparing apples to oranges, but you’re comparing good leadership (Clinton) with irresponsible intelligence fixing and lies of Bush.

    Clinton bombed because Iraq wouldn’t allow the weapons inspectors to continue their work. And guess what, not only did Clinton get what he wanted, but according to the BUSH WEAPONS INSPECTORS - CLINTON’S POLICIES WORKED.

    Not only was Clinton a more effective leader, but he was a more HONEST leader.

    BUSH IS A BIG FAT STUPID LIAR AND SO IS Neurotic, and Emotionally Disturbed NED.


  72. Marie Says:

    NED Bush’s reasons for war were illegal, immoral, unwarranted and unprecedented. Bush lied and you know it. You cannot defend him, so you will resort to “swiftboat” tactics — meaning what? That you will hire liars to repeat your and Bush’s version of the truth?
    I haven’t heard that Sheehan has had much influence on the politicians. If you cared about our dead soldiers and their families, you would be asking questions of your commander in chief, like so many of your Republican Senators are beginning to do.


  73. Spudge_Boy Says:

    #60

    “Most conservatives I know thought th Swiftboats did the public a service.”

    Exactly how the lies were planned. Swifties lie. Idiot republicans believe it. Next smear campaign. Rinse and repeat.


  74. Ryan Neat Says:

    NED,

    The problem with you is that you’re retarded, and so stupid you don’t recognize the difference between a descriptive adjective and name calling.

    BUSH LIED.
    BUSH FABRICATED EVIDENCE.
    BUSH WAGED AN ILLEGAL WAR OF AGGRESSION.

    REPUBLICANS ARE DANGEROUS AND VIOLENT TERRORISTS


  75. Spudge_Boy Says:

    #65

    “AND I am sure if Kerry were elected, the war would suddenly be a noble cause among the radical left in this blog.”

    There wouldn’t have been a republican lead war if Kerry was in. You’re a retard.


  76. Ryan Neat Says:

    Countries that have waged Pre-Emptive wars they claimed were to protect themselves from an enemy in the last 60 years:

    Germany
    Israel
    Iraq
    US

    That’s horrible company to keep, and it just goes to show you what happens when the good people of 4 otherwise decent countries have fascist and milataristic leaders who takeover!


  77. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    Marie - you people are the liars trying to smear Bush. Just like Kerry did. You went after Bush’s guard record and then cried smear when we nailed Kerry on his war crimes.

    Marie - the left has injected hate in this debate and the right is fighting back. You hatred for Bush started this. BUSH DID NOT LIE. Get over it.

    Ryan - Clinton was not an effective leader. He NEVER had the challenges that Bush had.


  78. kindness Says:

    Why are you all responding to and carrying on with a known troll here @ TP? You all know it gets you no where so why bother? Let the cretin cry in the wilderness.

    Don’t feed the trolls. any feeding just stokes their interest. Hell even beatings are mistaken for the attention they need. Don’t even beat the trolls. They are sick and pathetic. If you touch them, who knows what you’ll come down with? Do you know where that troll has been? Me, I don’t wanna know.


  79. Spudge_Boy Says:

    #77

    “we nailed Kerry on his war crimes.”

    That was the swiftboat lie.

    “the left has injected hate in this debate and the right is fighting back. You hatred for Bush started this. BUSH DID NOT LIE. Get over it.”

    You started it and WE are finishing it.

    “Clinton was not an effective leader. He NEVER had the challenges that Bush had.”

    Bush created his false challenges.


  80. Terrytheturtle Says:

    Delusional. Don’t listen to the voices in your head Ned. Don’t go Berkowitz on us now.


  81. Joe Sixpack Says:

    Ned, calling me an idiot in #60 after all the times I’ve helped you clarify your statements here. How ungrateful and totally disrespectful of you. You are kind of a fiesty little gal, huh?

    Correct me if I wrong, but did you know that most of those “swiftboat” assholes who were part of the smear campaign never set foot on a swiftboat? Many never served in the Navy, and still others never served at all except with their mouths and money. Guess how many of them actually served with and personally knew Kerry in Vietnam?

    But never mind that, honey. All this fighting turns me on—-like mighty aphrodite does me. (How about talking dirty to me now?.


  82. Ryan Neat Says:

    NED,

    And that’s why we call you delusional.

    #1 priority of Clinton - global terrorism.
    #1 issue facing clinton when he became president, a HORRIFIC recession left by BushI
    He faced impeachment, yeah, that was a minor challenge huh?
    He faced a daily probe into his financial and personal dealings.
    He faced an invasion of Kosovo (A COUNTRY WITH SUPERIOR MILITARY FORCES COMPARED TO IRAQ) and he defeated them

    Not only were Clinton’s challenges equal or greater to the ones that Bush faced, but because he actually managed them, they didn’t degrade into the hellhole that everything republicans touch gets spat into.

    Republicans are inept managers, and inept leaders. They take a simple issue and turn it into a catastrophy!


  83. Terrytheturtle Says:

    On point: it’s not about Clinton, its about Chimpy


  84. The Northeast Dilemma Says:

    Spudge - Kerry “Zippo” lighter burned a village with women and children in it. He admitted it. He also slandered the troops in 1971 congressional testimony. You didn’t think we were going to let that one slide by did you?


  85. Ryan Neat Says:

    NED,

    People go to jail for ‘war crimes’. If Kerry had committed them, he’d be in jail since the republicans are IN CHARGE of the Justice Department. Not only is your statement delusional and crackpot, it’s traiterous and bad for troop moral to treat a war hero with such disrespect. You’re a dishonorable and unamerican fool!


  86. Ryan Neat Says:

    NED IS A TRAITOR!


  87. Ryan Neat Says:

    NED,

    I already correct that LYING FOOLISH CLAIM OF YOURS.

    Never happen, and Kerry never claimed that he did any such thing.

    NED YOU ARE A LIAR AND A FOOL!


  88. Darth Filibustrous Says:

    #78 - kindness -

    I agree, the trolls have a pretty good track record of derailing the subject of the post, thus preventing the effective exchange of ideas on that subject. I’m guilty of falling into the trap as well.


  89. Terrytheturtle Says:

    #84 were you in Nam, Ned, or are you just living vicariously through your Xbox?


  90. Ryan Neat Says:

    NED,

    Why did Rumsfeld sell all of those WMDs to Saddam in the first place?

    Why don’t you hold republicans responsible for arming a madman with WMDs?


  91. Ryan Neat Says:

    NED spends the entire day in her room playing with her ‘x-box’ I bet. It explains why she’s so poorly socialized to the real world. She certainly seems immune to reality.


  92. Ryan Neat Says:

    BUSH LIED
    BUSH WAGED AN ILLEGAL WAR
    FITZIE IS GONNA FIND THE LIES AND THE REPUBLICANS ARE GONNA LOSE THE NEXT ELECTION!

    GO DEMOCRATS!


  93. The Fly-man Says:

    Ned here is a good topic for you in support of the Clinton ostryich imitation arena.
    If my memory serves me right before the election a ex military officer came out and basically said that the Russian special forces were believed to be just leaving Iraq right before the first invasion in March 03. his security clearance was immediately pulled and other than that it went away. How about doing some research on that for us, try Bill Gertz over at the wash.times. I’m sure there might have some wink wink nod nod going with the Clinton administration, ya never know.Thanks


  94. Terrytheturtle Says:

    #78, sorry Kindness, sometimes it is just too easy. I mostly talk to trolls because you need to understand their delusions when you meet them in the real world. Ned is a parody of a troll though, so maybe we should leave him to drool and gibber in peace.


  95. Joe Sixpack Says:

    NED if we ain’t going to talk about Bush and Clinton’s approaches to the Iraqi War, then go ahead and continue to change the subject here. But please, don’t call me an idiot as it hurts my feelings.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, does that mean you ain’t going to talk dirty to me? How about a beer down at the bar? Maybe we can smooth over our differences and feel each other out (so to speak, heh, heh).

    By the way, what’s your favorite color? Blue, I bet. I like brown, myself. Like a cow-pie color of brown.


  96. Ryan Neat Says:

    Terry,

    Have you noticed that the real action from trolls is always on Iraq and other ‘pentagon related’ matters. Clearly this is part of the effort of the republican/military propaganda machine to disrupt anything that undermines their illegal actions. It leaked a year or so ago about how the pentagon had created a department of ‘misinformation’ for news and internet access. Most likely they either supply amateur retards LIKE NED with this, or maybe the pentagon guys are simply as inept at the rest of the administration and their work just looks amateurish…


  97. Sylvia Zimmer Says:

    I admire your patience, guys - I can’t even read NED’s comments anymore (or IRI, BRS or MA for that matter).
    I read half of the first sentence and then go down to the name of the poster and when it says NED (& Co.) I just skip the whole comment……
    It was funny and entertaining at the beginning, then I began to seriously wonder and shake my head but by now their comments make my blood-pressure go through the roof!
    No matter how many times you debunk their comments with facts and links, they come back with the same stupid talking points (I know, I know, that’s all they have: talking points) but at times it makes me want to just scream at my monitor *g*


  98. Ryan Neat Says:

    “What Bush Said: “Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases.””

    You know the funniest part of this? It was Cheney and Rumsfeld who taught AlQueda bomb making and other Terrorist skills so they would attack Russia.

    Not only are the republicans responsible for the creation of AlQueda, they’re responsible for the very skills training they push onto Iraq.

    The republicans are a threat to national security!


  99. Spudge_Boy Says:

    #84

    “Kerry “Zippo” lighter burned a village with women and children in it. He admitted it. He also slandered the troops in 1971 congressional testimony.”

    Proof? Links? Something to back your position. If Kerry admitted to something like that, it would be on record.

    Sh!t Congressional Testimony has to be on record.

    Let’s see something.

    Better yet, change the subject, since these are lies.


  100. Ryan Neat Says:

    Spudge,

    The congressional testimony is on record, NED is lying.

    Kerry was asked to testify both about what he personally saw, and what others had told him (basically hearsay). Kerry recanted the statements of other soldiers, but he was VERY CLEAR that he had not personally witnessed any of these activities. The tinfoil hat republican whackos can’t tell the difference between witness testimony to hearsay and first hand accounting. Republicans are consistently just foolish childlike retards, nothing more.

    We do however know that they did occur, and Mai Lai in particular was a massacre of a whole village that none other than Colin Powell helped coverup as a JAG officer.



  101. The Fly-man Says:

    I’m sorry, I have way to much time on my hands today. Here is a quote from Kristol today and the more I read it the more I just have to shake my head. ” If voters hear, a damaging accusation that remains largely unrebutted, they will have a tendency to assume it’s true.’ hmmm I hope you all have time to read Mr. Kristol and Mr. Hayes.


  102. Ryan Neat Says:

    Not only did the republicans falsify documents, they used testimony they KNEW to be false. This is a clear subversion of the role of Congress in going to war, and as a result BUSH COMMITTED TREASON WORTHY OF IMPEACHMENT.

    For the NYT

    A top member of Al Qaeda in American custody was identified as a likely fabricator months before the Bush administration began to use his statements as the foundation for its claims that Iraq trained Al Qaeda members to use biological and chemical weapons, according to newly declassified portions of a Defense Intelligence Agency document.
    The document, an intelligence report from February 2002, said it was probable that the prisoner, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, “was intentionally misleading the debriefers” in making claims about Iraqi support for Al Qaeda’s work with illicit weapons.


  103. jparker Says:

    Clinton was not an effective leader. He NEVER had the challenges that Bush had.

    Comment by The Northeast Dilemma — November 7, 2005 @ 2:17 pm

    What would that be? Literacy?

    Oh, and you’re still a Chickenhawk who wants other folks to do the fighting & dying for you.


  104. Ryan Neat Says:

    FlyMan

    Those tactics were taught to Kristol and the other NeoFascist/NeoCon freaks by their tutor LeoStrauss. An authentic nazi who was the father of their movement. This was something that the Nazis learned well, and the republicans have adopted as standard operating procedures. Republicans lie as effortless as most people breathe.


  105. Spudge_Boy Says:

    #100 and 101

    I still want NeD to show me this “information” on Kerry. You notice how he disappears when it starts getting tough?

    I’ll bet her mom found her at the PC and told her the short yellow bus was there to get her.


  106. Randy Says:

    Spudge Boy,

    If you will recall - at last year’s democratic convention, Kerry wanted to make sure that all of America knew that he was in Vietnam. In fact, he made it the focal point for the entire week, which just shows how weak of a candidate he really was. Only because he tried to capitalize on his supposed heroics, did the swift vets feel the need to really tell the truth. Here is but one link that will shed more light on the issue.

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/ news/ article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39826


  107. The Fly-man Says:

    Ryan, that’s why that is such a curious statement from Kristol, he uses as cheerleading point for the lack of cajones on the Bush team to respond to it’s critics. The way you took it, I assume by your response,makes it seem like a strategy, sounds eerily like the way Am talk radio works. Faiz, Judd and co. MORE MEAT FOR US PLEASE. Thanks


  108. WC Says:

    Believe it or not, the Downing Street Memo made news yesterday (well, sort of). Yesterday morning on Late Edition (CNN), Wolf B. interviewed the British Defense Sec. John Reid and asked him about manipulation of intelligence. Reid of course said that it didn’t happen, going on to say that there had been no debate regarding the burden of proof regarding Saddam having the intention and capacity to develop WMDs. Wolf then threw up excerpts of the DSM, including the part about intelligence being fixed around policy. Again Sec. Reid denied it and brushed off the DSM as one of a thousand papers flying around that represented one person’s view about one particular issue.

    What pissed me off is that Wolf allowed Sec. Ried to debunk CNN. If CNN doesn’t feel that the DSM is airtight evidence, then they have no business putting it up on the screen. It’s as if Wolf did this on purpose to appease the Right, and once again try and put to rest any questions about the DSM. It’s my understanding that the DSM is actually minutes from a meeting, and not some “memo.” Wolf never challenged Reid on this. Sheesh.


  109. Ryan Neat Says:

    “Only because he tried to capitalize on his supposed heroics, did the swift vets feel the need to really tell the truth.”RandyTheRadicalTerrorist

    The only thing ’supposed’ is that a republican ever tells the truth. The smear campaign of the radical lying traitors of the reichwing fascist republican party were completely discredited. Only those who are partisan to the point of delusion believe any of these completely discredited smears. But then Randy has shown he has no brain cells to deal with reality, it would explain why prefered to vote for a draft dodger instead of a war hero. Republicans always prefer lies and delusion to reality, as it fits their traiterous and treasonous tendencies.


  110. Randy Says:

    Ryan,

    Where is your proof that he was a “hero”. He admitted to Meet the Press in ‘71 about the war crimes he committed. How does that make him a hero. Maybe only in the minds of the left.


  111. Ryan Neat Says:

    And for those that don’t know, the worldnet daily is just another national enquirer smear machine. They haven’t printed a fact on their page in a non-distorted way since they started.

    Republicans are all professional liars, hate mongers and terrorists by nature, it’s why they’re drawn to supporting dictators and terrorist states like Saddam’s Iraq. Republicans recruited, funded and trained AlQueda. Republicans sold WMDs to Iraq to fight Iran. And before then, Republicans sold Plutonium reactors to Iran - the same ones they now claim Iran doesn’t need.

    Republicans are the single largest threat to american security and democracy we have ever faced.


  112. Ryan Neat Says:

    Randy,

    His war records show he was a Hero. Bush’s records show he was an AWOL traitor. And Randy, you’re printing discredited lies - you’re such a republican TRAITOR!


  113. cyncial ex-hippie Says:

    Randy, the proof is in the medals. The military decided he was a hero when they awarded him. If you want to slander the military, go do it on redstate.org


  114. D.V.D.A. Says:

    The Clinton administration made the Iraq-Al Qaeda connection when al Shifa was tomahawked. Soro’s leftoid robots have selective memory. All of the statements and newspaper reports have conveniently been forgotten.


  115. cyncial ex-hippie Says:

    The old saying, “The harder I work, the luckier I get” rings true. Clinton was lucky. Bush is especially unlucky when he takes his month-long vacations.


  116. cyncial ex-hippie Says:

    refresh our memories, dvda. What were Clinton’s statements regarding the connection between al Qaeda and Iraq?

    And when did Clinton call for a ground invasion and occupation? I seem to have forgotten that, also.


  117. twoplustwoisfour Says:

    Troll: I thought you supported the troops. What’s this talk about war crimes?


  118. twoplustwoisfour Says:

    And somebody here thought that che was a real lefty!


  119. Randy Says:

    #109

    Could it be that the Downing Street memo is not as authentic as the left would like it to be? This story smells of the same stench as “Rathergate”. Give it up and please try a new agenda.

    http://www.newsmax.com/ archives/ ic/ 2005/ 6/ 20/ 105038.shtml


  120. duhgopmustend Says:

    The men who were with Kerry on the boat and served with him said he was a hero. That is good enough for me. None of the SwiftBoatLiars were under his command.
    They simply hate him because he dared repeat stories of atrocities commited by a few of our servicemen.
    These atrocities have been proven to be true.
    so right wing fascist stfu


  121. Randy Says:

    If the DSM were true, I find it hard to believe that the MSM would not be jumping all over this. That said, it must not be truthful since they seem to attack Bush at every chance.


  122. The Fly-man Says:

    Please post links or where to find any supporting documents if you can please. DVDA here’s what I found on al Shifa .cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/biblio.htm
    saves time for quick updates and agreements or rebutals. Thanks


  123. duhgopmustend Says:

    the MSM is owned by the right wing. That is a fact.
    countless items proving this have been documented.
    So Randy - spew elsewhere. DSM was coroborated by several former Bush supporters such as Wilkerson, Clarke and the guy that Snow replaced whose name escapes me. All conservatives.


  124. Ryan Neat Says:

    NewsMax is a biased and irresponsible propaganda site Randy. It isn’t news, it’s slander.


  125. Marie Says:

    #96 Ryan, I think the matter of deliberate disinformation was an early plan of defense/offense right after 9/11, around the time of the Patriot Act, but the plan was halted — or so we were told. I don’t believe they ever discontinued that plan - they are using it on us, a la “1984″, and NED has fallen for it.


  126. progressive and proud Says:

    Trolls try to baffle with bull. Don’t they sound silly?


  127. progressive and proud Says:

    So NeD, #84 - If you believe Kerry did that, wouldn’t that make you favor him? I mean, you talk of torture being okay and we have killed MANY women and children in Iraq, wouldn’t that make you a fan? I thought you find it acceptable for some women and children to die for a greater “cause?” And I know you love a war. You can’t have it both ways.


  128. Marie Says:

    #99 and #100, When Kerry testified before Congress in 1971, he was indeed repeating what he had been told and his testimony clearly states that. Similar to how the comments of Dick Durbin were misconstrued when he repeated an FBI memo on the Senate floor and rhetorically said “one would think…..” and it was then reported all over the networks and print that he made the claims himself, so were the words of Kerry, who was repeating hearsay from others, being slung back at him as having been a perpetrator.
    This is what Republicans do — they misconstrue, they leave out facts, they distort and then they repeat the false charges over and over again to the very willing media (who have degenerated to a mere stenography of he said/she said type of “reporting.”


  129. kindness Says:

    yea, I’m now of the belief that they make the blog way less appealing. So in that sense, they may be doing the job they want to, makeing blogs less attractive by pushing down their #’s (except those who continually log back on to get in a jab & parry).

    Do it the way DKos does, let them stay if they have anythign to say, if they are trolls (on either side) boot them.


  130. Marie Says:

    #102 Flyman, That is a tactic used by Goebbels, the Nazi propagandist under Adolph Hitler. The neocon-fascists have learned their lessons well.


  131. D.V.D.A. Says:

    O-ethyl methylphosphonothioic acid = Iraq
    Al Shifa = financed by al Qaeda
    Clinton connected the dots in 1998. Bombs away. People died, but many were saved. TP and the leftoid robots “don’t remember”.


  132. D.V.D.A. Says:

    Al Franken:
    That wasn’t a lie. Clinton bombed a factory in Sudan. They had soil samples that had–that showed that this was a factory making a precursor to weapons of mass destruction. It was–al Qaeda was in the Sudan. This factory had been financed by al Qaeda. So you just got to get your facts straight. I mean this is–if you read ‘The Age of Sacred Terror’ by Daniel Benjamin and Steve Simon this is covered, chapter and verse.”


  133. Marie Says:

    #109, WC, I agree. I saw that interview, and it was another occasion where I wanted to throw something at Wolfie. He brings up the controversial memo, then accepts the guy’s story with no further challenge. This is Blitzer’s way of interviewing for the Republicans: bring up the challenge (thereby feign unbias)then let the guy dismiss it or lie it away. On to the next question.
    By the way in this case the “memo” is not just something dashed off on a post-it note. It is the official documentation of an official meeting - for the record.


  134. D.V.D.A. Says:

    Bill Clinton, addressing the nation after the Aug 20 1998 missile strike:
    “There is no question in my mind that the Sudanese factory was producing chemicals that are used–and can be used–in VX gas…this was a plant that was producing chemical warfare-related weapons, and we have physical evidence of that.”

    Thomas Pickering Aug 25, 1998
    “We see evidence that we think is quite clear on contacts between Sudan and Iraq. In fact, al Shifa officials, early in the company’s history, we believe were in touch with Iraqi individuals associated with Iraq’s VX program.”


  135. Ryan Neat Says:

    DVDA,

    Your ‘leaps’ of illogic don’t prove you point, but they do demonstrate your irrationality and complete lack of sanity.


  136. Ryan Neat Says:

    A top member of Al Qaeda in American custody was identified as a likely fabricator months before the Bush administration began to use his statements as the foundation for its claims that Iraq trained Al Qaeda members to use biological and chemical weapons, according to newly declassified portions of a Defense Intelligence Agency document.

    The document, an intelligence report from February 2002, said it was probable that the prisoner, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, “was intentionally misleading the debriefers” in making claims about Iraqi support for Al Qaeda’s work with illicit weapons.


  137. WC Says:

    #120

    I want Tony Blair and George Bush themselves to tell us that the DSM and everything contained within it is false. So far I haven’t seen that. All I’ve seen is Blair, at a previous joint press conference with Pres. Bush, denying that facts had been fixed.

    Since you’ve been kind enough to provide a link supporting your contention, I want to draw attention to this little tidbit from the very same “news” story:

    While British officials hadn’t disputed the authenticity of the Downing Street Memo, a senior member of the Blair government who reviewed the memo in light of reporter Smith’s admission could say only that its contents “appeared authentic.”

    As for “giving it up” and “trying a new agenda,” I don’t think so, bub. I do believe the agenda contained within the DSM, specifically that of questionable intelligence, is very much alive and well, witnessed by the continuing stream of information that continues to this day.

    Just visit the link below. I do believe it has today’s date on it. I believe that would put it under the category of “current” agenda.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174708,00.html


  138. Ryan Neat Says:

    Republicans GAVE THE WMDs to Iraq, that Clinton had to SUCCESSFULLY destroy. Clinton did his job, but republicans continually fail to do theirs. The republican party is nothing but the crooked, the inept and the hateful.

    [The] Iraqi bioweapons program that President Bush wants to eradicate got its start with help from Uncle Sam two decades ago, according to government records that are getting new scrutiny in light of the discussion of war against Iraq.

    The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention sent samples directly to several Iraqi sites that U.N. weapons inspectors determined were part of Saddam Hussein’s biological weapons program, CDC and congressional records from the early 1990s show. Iraq had ordered the samples, saying it needed them for legitimate medical research.

    The CDC and a biological-sample company, the American Type Culture Collection, sent strains of all the germs Iraq used to make weapons, including anthrax, the bacteria that make botulinum toxin, and the germs that cause gas gangrene, the records show. Iraq also got samples of other deadly pathogens, including West Nile virus.

    The transfers came in the 1980s, when the United States backed Iraq in its war against Iran.


  139. D.V.D.A. Says:

    Bill Richardson
    “Sudan’s support for terrorism, their connections with Iraq on VX . . . and Sudan’s leadership support for Osama bin Laden.”

    Sandy Berger wrote in the Washington Times on Oct. 16, 1998, suggesting that al Shifa was a dual-use facility like those U.N. inspectors had found in Iraq. The Clinton administration had “information linking bin Laden to the Sudanese regime and to the al Shifa plant…We have information that Iraq has assisted chemical weapons activity in Sudan.”


  140. Ryan Neat Says:

    The government’s most definitive account of Iraq’s arms programs, to be released today, will show that Saddam Hussein posed a diminishing threat at the time the United States invaded and did not possess, or have concrete plans to develop, nuclear, chemical or biological weapons, U.S. officials said yesterday.

    The officials said that the 1,000-page report by Charles A. Duelfer, the chief U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq, concluded that Hussein had the desire but not the means to produce unconventional weapons that could threaten his neighbors or the West. President Bush has continued to assert in his campaign stump speech that Iraq had posed “a gathering threat.”

    The officials said Duelfer, an experienced former United Nations weapons inspector, found that the state of Hussein’s weapons-development programs and knowledge base was less advanced in 2003, when the war began, than it was in 1998, when international inspectors left Iraq.


  141. Ryan Neat Says:

    DVDA,

    All you showed was that Clinton neutralized a Sudanese connected issue. If you are going to say because the sudanese worked with AlQueda, then the US worked with AlQueda, then by proxy because the US is involved with the Pakistanis, then the US is involved with North Korea. Not only is your argument silly, and irresponsible, it’s downright foolish.


  142. D.V.D.A. Says:

    Clarke did provide new information in defense of Clinton’s decision to fire Tomahawk cruise missiles at the El Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Khartoum, Sudan, in retaliation for bin Laden’s role in the Aug. 7 embassy bombings. While U.S. intelligence officials disclosed shortly after the missile attack that they had obtained a soil sample from the El Shifa site that contained a precursor of VX nerve gas, Clarke said that the U.S. government is “sure” that Iraqi nerve gas experts actually produced a powdered VX-like substance at the plant that, when mixed with bleach and water, would have become fully active VX nerve gas.
    Clarke said U.S. intelligence does not know how much of the substance was produced at El Shifa or what happened to it. But he said that intelligence exists linking bin Laden to El Shifa’s current and past operators, the Iraqi nerve gas experts and the National Islamic Front in Sudan.

    Given the evidence presented to the White House before the airstrike, Clarke said, the president “would have been derelict in his duties if he didn’t blow up the facility.”

    Excerpted from “Embassy Attacks Thwarted, U.S. Says; Official Cites Gains Against Bin Laden; Clinton Seeks $10 Billion to Fight Terrorism,” Vernon Loeb, Washington Post, A02, January 23, 1999


  143. Massachusetts Liberal Says:

    Maria & Sylvia, you’re right (#97) It’s no use responding to the trolls. I mean, this is a guy who thinks the Swift Boat “veterans” were telling the truth. Their own book contradicted some of their claims.

    So this is my last time responding to a troll. I just couldn’t pass this one up:

    #68 “I am the one with problems when you folks have to resort to name calling????” -NED

    Here is a brief list of epithets NED has used in this thread alone: “lying left”, “you idiots”, “you’re [sic] dipshit”, “terrorist sympathizing lot”, “traitors”, “you’re an idiot”, “you people are the liars”

    Here’s more proof that he’s certifiable: “BUSH DID NOT LIE”


  144. Ryan Neat Says:

    Working ties between Iraq and AlQueda? Never Existed.

    Working ties between the US and AlQueda. REAL.

    The US trained, funded and helped recruit and even equpi the men who became AlQueda. They were our ‘freedom fighters’ to fight the Russians. So there’s more evidence of REPUBLICAN ties to AlQueda, than there is between AlQueda and Iraq. So by DVDA’s rationality, the US should bomb republicans.


  145. D.V.D.A. Says:

    Ambassador Bill Richardson on Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer August 30, 1998. He called the targeting “one of the finest hours of our intelligence people.”

    “We know for a fact, physical evidence, soil samples of VX precursor–chemical precursor at the site,” said Richardson. “Secondly, Wolf, direct evidence of ties between Osama bin Laden and the Military Industrial Corporation–the al Shifa factory was part of that. This is an operation–a collection of buildings that does a lot of this dirty munitions stuff. And, thirdly, there is no evidence that this precursor has a commercial application. So, you combine that with Sudan support for terrorism, their connections with Iraq on VX, and you combine that, also, with the chemical precursor issue, and Sudan’s leadership support for Osama bin Laden, and you’ve got a pretty clear cut case.”


  146. Ryan Neat Says:

    A documentary to be aired on Tuesday by Italian state satellite TV channel RAI News 24 alleges that US troops used chemical weapons during their assault on the insurgent stronghold of Fallujah in November last year. The documentary - ‘Fallujah - the hidden massacre’ - uses witness accounts from former US soldiers, Fallujah residents, video footage and photographs, to support its claim that contrary to US State Department denials, white phosphorous was used indiscriminately on the city, causing terrible injuries to civilians, including women and children.

    “I heard the order being issued to be careful because white phosphorous was being used on Fallujah. In military slang this is known as Willy Pete. Phosphorous burns bodies, melting the flesh right down to the bone,” says one former US solider, interviewed by the documentary’s director, Sigfrido Ranucci.

    “I saw the burned bodies of women and children. The phosophorous explodes and forms a plume. Who ever is within a 150 metre radius has no hope,” the former soldier adds.

    “A rain of fire came down on the city, and people targeted by the different coloured substances began to burn. We found people dead, with strange injuries, with their clothes intact,” a biologist from Fallujah, Mohamad Tareq al-Deraji tells Ranucci.

    The evidence in ‘Fallujah - the hidden massacre’ claims to show the US forces did not use phosphorous in the legitimate way - to highlight enemy positions - but dropped the substance indiscriminately on the city, and on a massive scale. The documentary also shows the terrible damage wrought by the US bombardment of Fallujah, and the carnage to civilians, some of whom lay sleeping.

    Equally disturbingly, a document in the report claims to prove that the U.S. forces have used the MK77 form of Napalm - the chemical used with devastating effect on civilians during the Vietnam war - on civilians in Iraq.

    “I had gathered testimonials on the use of phosphorous and Napalm in Iraq from several refugees from Fallujah, and wanted to tell the world about it, but my kidnappers would not allow me to,” said Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena, held hostage in Iraq earlier this year, during the documentary.

    The use of white phosophorous and Napalm is prohibited by UN conventions. Moroever, the United States signed up to the Chemical Weapons Convention in 1997.


  147. Ryan Neat Says:

    Britain’s involvement in the Iraq war has “partly radicalized and fueled” the rise of home-grown terrorism, London’s former ambassador to Washington, Sir Christopher Meyer, says.

    Prime Minister Tony Blair has repeatedly denied that the US and British invasion of Iraq in March 2003 has led to an increase in Islamic extremism and that it played a part in the July 7 attacks in London which left 56 dead.

    But in an interview with the Guardian newspaper, Meyer said: “There is plenty of evidence around at the moment that home-grown terrorism was partly radicalized and fueled by what is going on in Iraq.”

    “There is no way we can credibly get up and say it has nothing to do with it. Don’t tell me that being in Iraq has got nothing to do with it. Of course it does,” said the veteran diplomat, who was ambassador in Washington in the run-up to the war.


  148. Ryan Neat Says:

    US sells WMDs to Iraq under REPUBLICAN PRESIDENCIES.

    US and British companies are among several Western firms that sell Iraq materials that can be used to develop nuclear, chemical, biological, and conventional weapons. [Associated Press, 12/21/02; New York Times 12/21/02b; Washington Post,12/30/02; San Francisco Chronicle, 1/28/2003; Sunday Herald, 2/23/03]
    United States -
    Biological: American Type Culture Collection, several biological precursor agents for diseases like anthrax, gangrene, and the West Nile virus; Alcolac International, Thiodiglycol, the mustard gas precursor; Al Haddad, 60 tons of a chemical that could be used to make sarin; Dow Chemical, $1.5 million of pesticides (see December 1988). [Washington Post,12/30/02; New York Times 12/21/02b; Die Tageszeitung 10/18/02]
    Nuclear: TI Coating; UNISYS; Tektronix; Leybold Vacuum Systems; Finnigan-MAT-US; Hewlett Packard; Dupont; Consarc; Cerberus (LTD) ; Canberra Industries; Axel Electronics Inc. [Die Tageszeitung 10/18/02; Zmag 10/29/02; Memory Hole]
    Rocket Program: Honeywell ;TI Coating; UNISYS; Honeywell; Semetex; Sperry Corp.; Tektronix; Hewlett Packard; Eastman Kodak; Electronic Associates; EZ Logic Data Systems, Inc. [Die Tageszeitung 10/18/02; Zmag 10/29/02; Memory Hole]
    Conventional weapons: Honeywell; Spektra Physics; TI Coating; UNISYS; Sperry Corp.; Rockwell; Hewlett Packard; Carl Zeis -U.S; Union Carbide. [Die Tageszeitung 10/18/02; Zmag 10/29/02; Memory Hole; San Francisco Chronicle, 1/28/2003; Washington Post,12/30/02]
    United Kingdom -
    : Nuclear weapons: Euromac Ltd-UK.; C Plath-Nuclear; Endshire Export Marketing; International Computer Systems; MEED International; International Computer Limited; Matrix Churchill Corp.; Ali Ashour Daghir.; Inwako; XYY Options, Inc. [Sunday Herald, 2/23/03]
    Chemical weapons: MEED International; International Computer Systems; International Military Services; Sheffield Forgemasters; Technology Development Group; International Signal and Control; Terex Corporation; Walter Somers Ltd. [Sunday Herald, 2/23/03]
    Conventional: International Computer Systems; International Computer Limited; TMG Engineering. [Sunday Herald, 2/23/03]
    People and organizations involved: Honeywell, Consarc, Semetex, Hewlett Packard, Dupont, Canberra Industries, Dow Chemical, Axel Electronics Inc., Alcolac International, Al Haddad, Cerberus (LTD), Leybold Vacuum Systems, Finnigan-MAT-US, UNISYS, TI Coating, Tektronix, Sperry Corp., American Type Culture Collection, Rockwell, Carl Zeis -U.S, Union Carbide, Euromac Ltd-UK, Spektra Physics, Eastman Kodak, Electronic Associates, EZ Logic Data Systems, Inc., C Plath-Nuclear, Endshire Export Marketing, Terex Corporation, International Signal and Control, Walter Somers Ltd., TMG Engineering, Technology Development Group, Sheffield Forgemasters, International Computer Limited, Matrix Churchill Corp., International Computer Systems, MEED International, Ali Ashour Daghir, Inwako, XYY Options, Inc., International Military Services


  149. WC Says:

    OK, D.V.D.A. Take this:

    The occasion was a press conference on 24 February 2001 during Powell’s visit to Cairo, Egypt. Answering a question about the US-led sanctions against Iraq, the Secretary of State said:

    We had a good discussion, the Foreign Minister and I and the President and I, had a good discussion about the nature of the sanctions — the fact that the sanctions exist — not for the purpose of hurting the Iraqi people, but for the purpose of keeping in check Saddam Hussein’s ambitions toward developing weapons of mass destruction. We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they are directed toward that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was ten years ago when we began it. And frankly they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq…

    What happened???


  150. D.V.D.A. Says:

    The Clinton administra