Fox News: “Why All The Fuss About Torturing People?”
Fox News: “Why All The Fuss About Torturing People?”
Just now on Fox News:
Marc Jacobson, who served on the Defense Department Prisoner Policy Team from 2002-2003, explains what all the fuss is about:
[The problem is] the perception that we tossed off [the Geneva Convention] and said, “We’re going to have nothing to do with this; we’re going to create our own set of rules,” that not only created a perception to the world that we are not going to adhere to the rule of law, but from a functional standpoint, I think it may have put our own troops in danger. You have a situation now where other nations can say: “Because of the different nature of this war, we are not going to treat U.S. troops as prisoners of war. They are enemy combatants. I’m sorry — military necessity. We’re following the precedent you’re setting.”
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BECAUSE TORTURING IS EVIL!!!!
November 8th, 2005 at 4:46 pmThe important quote is right there.
Because we are now doing it, there is nothing stopping our enemies from doing it right back to us. We no longer hold the moral high ground. Sad
November 8th, 2005 at 4:51 pmLet’s not let this golden opportunity pass us by!Torture conservatives, Republicans, and trolls, and even some Democrats, like MBideNA and LIEberman!
November 8th, 2005 at 4:56 pmMoney quote from Lott; “We can not remain silent. We have met the enemy, and it is us.”
Torture the enemy among us. They don’t know anything of value, but it might teach them a lesson.
November 8th, 2005 at 4:58 pmAlong this same line, the New York Times has an article today on how upset the GOP – Frist & Hastert are about the leak on CIA foreign prisons. They claim it “could have long-term and far-reaching damaging and dangerous consequences.” Like their entire war and policies haven’t had far reaching damage. How do these guys say this stuff with a straight face? How come we didn’t see this outrage when Plame was leaked? The only good thing from this exercise in hypocrisy is the fact that they have now confirmed the report on CIA foreign prisons.
November 8th, 2005 at 5:01 pmIt is the sad truth, many, if not most Republicans feel enemies of all kinds should be tortured and killed. The culture of life in action.
Gee, since it has worked so well throughout the ages with non-civilized people, lets keep it up! (sarcasm)
November 8th, 2005 at 5:01 pmI can’t believe that they actually put in in print.
November 8th, 2005 at 5:02 pmI do believe that being nice is often percieved as being stupid and weak. But being too mean can backfire also. That’s where appropriate parenting comes in. Our leaders just need parenting classes!
November 8th, 2005 at 5:05 pm“Why the fuss about torturing people who want us dead?”
Because “wanting us dead” and killing us are not the same thing.
Because two wrongs don’t make a right.
Because if we stoop to a new low, and they stoop lower we’ll go lower still.
Because an eye for an eye and we all go blind.
Because we should claim the moral high ground.
Because we haven’t even proved that they want us dead.
Because we are all human.
Because everyone makes mistakes, let’s not make them uncorrectable.
Because we don’t want to be the monsters that we are scared of.
Because there are worse things than having enemies.
Because we are better than that.
Because we have ideals.
Because we have Morals.
Because we should do what is right.
Just Because!
Z.
November 8th, 2005 at 5:07 pmI do not have cable, so I was a little skeptical about Fox. But I watched it yesterday and this morning while house sitting for someone, and I couldn’t believe how obvious their spin had become.
Was it always this bad, or is it because 1) I haven’t seen it for awhile and had been used to it before; or 2) are they getting desperate?; or 3) both?
November 8th, 2005 at 5:10 pm“Why All The Fuss About Torturing People?â€
November 8th, 2005 at 5:12 pmIf Fox and it’s viewers are asking that question, then they’re likely not deep enough to grasp the answer.
We need to clear up a pesky fallacy here. Liberals do not object to torture out of any love for terrorists or hatred for America. We just realize that it’s morally wrong, un-American, and hypocritical for an ostensibly civilized country to carry out.
More here:
http://blogdebogs.blogspot.com/2005/11/id-classify-this-as-hypocrisy.html
November 8th, 2005 at 5:15 pmI wish they would change the title of the show to “MY WORLD WITH NEIL CAVUTO”, because he’s not living in MY world!
What the fvck?! Just when you think they can’t get any more evil, they go and surprise you with a whole new level of evil! Aaghh!
So Ryan, Wayne and I are going to put down the bong and go vote shortly. (Kidding, we’re at work, we’ll vote on the way home!) We’ll have to catch up with this tomorrow.
November 8th, 2005 at 5:16 pm#10 Andrew, go rent the movie “Outfoxed.” You’ll see that they’ve been this way from the beginning. It’s only been fairly recently that they have been willing to admit how partisan they are. But they still want you to think that they are “balanced”, as if balance were the goal of journalism and not objectivity.
November 8th, 2005 at 5:18 pmCurrent ratings:
http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/ratings/
I’ve told you kids before. Fox News may be number one in cable, but compared to broadcast network news it’s a puny dribble and the left blogosphere has dwarfed cable and the right blogosphere combined for months now.
November 8th, 2005 at 5:34 pmNUKE A COMMIE PREGNANT WHALE FOR JESUS!
November 8th, 2005 at 5:42 pmRemember when Fox showed footage of “shock and awe”, added classical music, and ran it over and over again as if it had mythical proportions. Recently they reported that widespread looting and violence was being commited by the victims of a terrible natural catastrophe. The list of egregiously slanted “news” items coming from these mental degenerates is long. This is just one more. What the hell will they tell their grandchildren???
November 8th, 2005 at 5:45 pmLet’s apply this to other situations.
If a serial killer won’t reveal where he buried the bodies, is torture ok?
If a murderer is about to go free because he won’t confess, would torture be justified if it prevents another murder?
If Pat Robertson advocates the assassination of Hugo Chavez, is it okay for Chavez to torture someone who wants him dead?
If being liberal gives aid and comfort to the enemy, is it okay to torture liberals to make them stop?
What a brave new world Republicans are building for us all.
November 8th, 2005 at 6:20 pmNUKE A COMMIE PREGNANT WHALE FOR JESUS!
Comment by Burton Burland Jr. — November 8, 2005
I would, too, if it was a threat to national security. But it isn’t, and conservative Republicans are.
November 8th, 2005 at 6:22 pmWe should figure out a way to torture Fox News.
November 8th, 2005 at 6:22 pmWatching FOX news qualifies as torture to the sane.
November 8th, 2005 at 7:24 pmNO TO BUSH:
http://www.seedsofdoubt.com/distressedamerican/images/graphics/End-The-Abuses-Small.jpg
=
November 8th, 2005 at 7:28 pmBUSH’S (SUB)MISSION ACCOMPLISHED:
http://www.airfarceone.net/shrubdown.html
=
November 8th, 2005 at 7:31 pmIf someone had told me 6 years ago we would be debating torture and secret gulags in America in the near future, I would have laughed and said they were crazy.
November 8th, 2005 at 7:33 pmFinally, a quote (Marc Jacobson’s) that shows that at least someone is thinking about things from other people’s perspective.
Also ask, “why do people we torture want us dead?”
November 8th, 2005 at 7:38 pmThey ALL want to kill us AFTER we torture them; not all of them wanted to kill us BEFORE they were tortured.
November 8th, 2005 at 7:54 pmFox News: “Why All The Fuss About Torturing People?”
Umm, This is why FOX “News” is so wrong, they do not even know why Torture is wrong.
From Think Progress.
Marc Jacobson, who served on the Defense Department Prisoner Policy Team from 2002-2003, explains what all the fuss is about:
[…
November 8th, 2005 at 7:59 pmWhy all this fuss about whipping, mocking, and crucifying Jesus?
We Satanists are really enjoying ourselves these days.
November 8th, 2005 at 8:26 pmIf one day after the Senate met with Chenney the Washington Post story appeared I am wondering if the White House knew the story was going to run. This makes sense, reporter was asked not to name the host country it was likely part of confirming the story with the White House. Chenney may have been doing damage control by notifying Senate Republicans so they would not be completely blind-sided.
November 8th, 2005 at 9:04 pmAnyone who ordered this torture should be court-marshalled for conduct unbecoming an officer.
November 8th, 2005 at 10:16 pm#9 Zwack — That’s pretty straightforward — maybe even the people at Fox could understand it.
November 8th, 2005 at 10:29 pmWhat is WRONG with people that they can’t see what happens when we lose the high ground. Not only have we lost credibility in the world because of the lies about the war, we have lost integrity and respect around the world for our use of illegal means and methods of interrogation.
” it may have put our own troops in danger.”
No kidding. This just occuring to you now?
First day, new brain?
November 8th, 2005 at 10:50 pmAll torture to be tested on the leaders who approve it.
November 8th, 2005 at 11:05 pmBECAUSE torture doesn’t work. A prisoner, military, insurgent or otherwise, under torture will confess to anything, and, if he doesn’t in fact possess any information that would be of value to his torturers, will simply make up stuff he thinks you will want to hear, anything to make the pain stop.
Who wouldn’t? This is a thoroughly well-documented phenemenon.
From a Machiavellian perspective, the real problem with torture is that it’s likely to get you saddled with a hell of a lot of worthless information that wastes valuable time and manpower. It turns possible allies into definite enemies.
Torture is morally, categorically wrong, sure; but it’s also, from a realpolitik/military standpoint, stupid and wasteful and inefficient.
I mean, what are we gonna do, kill every Arab in the Middle East? Do the same thing Attorney General Gonzalez’s ancestors did here in the Southwest? It’s 600 years after the Spanish Conquest, and as a New Mexican I can tell you, it still isn’t safe for a guy named Gonzalez to walk around alone on an Indian reservation after dark. Wars get forgotten in a generation or two. Genocide does not. The losers of this war, their descendants will hate our guts for what we’re doing, six and seven generations from now, just as the descendants of France’s long-lost colonial subjects are, as I type this, burning Paris and her suburbs.
The very likely unintended consequence of V.P. Cheney’s and Att’y Gen’l Alberto Gonzalez’s “Conquistador” policy toward the Middle Eastern theater of war, will be a vicious blowback on American soil, and these damned fools in Washington will have yet more American blood on their greedy, soft, fat little hands. Plus they will have done incalculable damage to American business interests all over the world. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
November 8th, 2005 at 11:33 pmPeople who can rationalize torture should run, not walk, to the nearest psychologist or psychiatrist. It’s not okay to hurt other living beings. I’ll say that again: It’s not okay to hurt other living beings. If an animal has rabies, or some other dysfunction which permits it to harm others, then it should be dealt with mercifully and compassionately, and if death be the sentence then that sentence should be carried out with the greatest remorse. But torture! God have mercy on us that we have seen these times. “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” How conveniently that maxim is forgotten by those who so loudly trumpet their so-called Christianity.
November 9th, 2005 at 12:05 am#35…. Well put!
If right wingnut Rethuglicans had just two hands like the rest of us, this empty headed moron wouldn’t have made into office in the first place, and we wouldn’t even be discussing CIA torture.
Yeah, you read that correctly. They have three hands. Perhaps you didn’t notice. One to vote with, one to hold their Bible, and one to hold their wallet.
Except, now they need a 4th hand to pull their “family values” out of their asses.
November 9th, 2005 at 1:53 amWhy the fuss?
Because not only is torture illegal, it is also immoral, unethical, inhuman, cruel, and degrading.
Torture is a war crime –it is against the Geneva Conventions regarding the treatment of prisoners of war. The Fourth Geneva Convention on Rules of War was adopted in 1949 by the international community in response to Nazi atrocities during World War II, which included collective punishments. The United States are a signatory nation, and have ratified these Conventions.
Anybody who advocates collective punishments (a la Fallujah, and Tal-Afar) is advocating for practices and war crimes worthy of the worst regimes known in human history. Anybody who advocates torture be used in Iraq or Afghanistan, is advocating for the commission of war crimes, and for the gross violations of Human Rights. Anybody advocating torture, is asking for the further erosion of the rule of law.
To dispel any misunderstanding, this is what the UN “Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment†has to say:
“For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession (…)â€
“Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.â€
“No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.â€
“No State Party shall expel, return or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.“
Deporting war detainees to a country where they will be tortured, is also a war crime.
Find the full text of all the Geneva Conventions here: http://www.genevaconventions.org/
Lastly, from a practical aspect, no information of value can be attained through torture: Under physical coercion and extreme duress, anybody will confess to anything the torturers want to. Anybody who advocates the use of torture is advocating a wasteful, useless practice that yields no tangible, positive results.
November 9th, 2005 at 2:10 amDid you ever get the feeling that Bush’s base thinks Bush is lying when Bush says he opposes torture? But they think that’s just fine?
November 9th, 2005 at 4:18 amgood post, gregor, #37, thanks for the reminder.
and boy the WA Post has done some good reporting and editorials recently on the cia torture/gulag issue. I could hardly believe the title of this opinion piece by jeffrey smith, a former general counsel of the CIA: Central Torture Agency?
“…Sooner or later this nation will come to its senses and remember how important international law and the Geneva Conventions are to our standing in the world and the protection of our citizens…”
let’s hope so. and in a hurry. this guy Darth cheney and his sidekick george are not going to give up easily on their torture schemes for the cia.
http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/08/AR2005110801108.html
November 9th, 2005 at 4:43 aman important knight ridder story too about the growing dissidence against the bushivite’s torture intentions:
“But a growing number of lawmakers, both moderate Republicans and Democrats, argue that abuse of prisoners is immoral, has devastated the United States’ image and ability to project its values overseas, and would endanger captured American soldiers or civilians.
There also are growing qualms at Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice’s State Department and within the uniformed military over spreading disclosures of detainee abuse by U.S. personnel and the global criticism the United States is taking.”
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/13106892.htm
and a commentary which notes that, “Bush and Roberts both freely use double talk in saying “we don’t torture” but the context for this disavowal is their opposition to legislation that prohibits torture. They sound like alcoholics who plead not to have the bottle taken away even while they promise not to drink…”
let’s dry out these obsessive compulsive torturers. the congress and public clearly have to act to reign these monsters in.
http://www.warincontext.org/2005_11_06_archive.html#113146015850345621
November 9th, 2005 at 5:12 amhttp://www.soaw.org/new/newswire_detail.php?id=905
November 9th, 2005 at 6:01 amCan Fox News be impeached? Charged with treason for unAmerican activities? Maybe we could go after Murdock for aiding and abetting Bush in his criminal war activities? Would it be morally wrong to torture people who advocate for torture?
November 9th, 2005 at 8:07 amWould torture be OK when there is no hope for rehabilitation? Ok, I’ll go for that one.
The argument that really takes the cake is “we don’t torture–but it will help if terrorists think we do”.
Oh my gawd. Don’t they realise that they’re talking OUT LOUD? That people can hear them? That terrorists have TVs too?
It reminds me of Homer Simpson, saying out loud what he means to conceal “Homer, I can hear you!” “D’oh!!”
November 9th, 2005 at 9:07 am#44
November 9th, 2005 at 9:27 amSadly, the real problem is that in the name of America and all Americans, our forces ARE torturing people. The primary premise of any torturer is that the victim is guilty. And you will be tortured until you admit your guilt. Even if you’re not guilty.
The most basic problem is that we don’t know if the person in custody is just an afghan farm-boy or a high-ranking Al Queda operative. We’ve released over two hundred from Guantanamo. If they are/were terrorists, why are we releasing them? If they were simply bystanders turned in to collect bounties, should we have had them detained or tortured (or whatever the euphamism for the painful and degrading treatment is at the moment)?
We might debate the 8th ammendment’s application to someone who was tried and convicted of an act of real terrorism (i.e. directly causing the deaths of innocents, as opposed to giving a few pennies to a muslim beggar that the administration says is a front for islamofaschism).
But this is just after the heat of battle, but before any judicial procedure can occur. And it is done with a meat-axe, not a scalpel. This is/was not one or two publically known members high up in Al Queda, these are mostly unknown people who may or may not have anything to do with terrorists, much less any knowledge.
America’s culture of death has gotten to the point where many people probably support the dragging to death of the Sikh in Texas (wearing a turban apparently made him a “towelhead”, though he was not arabic, muslim, nor any threat).
If torture makes us feel better, America has literally gone to hell.
November 9th, 2005 at 9:40 amI continue to believe that the torture issue is a red herring to distract us from the details of who committed 9/11. It seemed all too convenient the way 9/11 sparked the fire that enabled the bush/chainy’s theft of tens & hundreds of billions. We can see with our own eyes how bush reacted to the news that a second plane had struck the WTC. Not only did he not take any affirmative action, HE DID NOT STAND UP he continued to sit there with “My Pet Goat”.. Its instructional & I think that we have been nominated to be the pet goat in the 9/11 narative. Will we accept the nomination??? Only time will tell ##see http://madcowprod.com
November 9th, 2005 at 10:25 amThey attempt to distract at every turn, but that does not reduce the signifigance of the problem with sanctioned torture. As they have so many irons in the fire, we have to be attentive to all of the issues, and not in any instance concentrate on only one. End sanctioned torture, stop ghosting prisoners, stop using foreign prisons known to torture, stop election fraud, stop the illegal dissemination of national security matters (though lets be clear – if a crime is hidden under the pretense of ‘national security’, it is NOT national security – it is a crime, and should be made public: like secret torture prisons being encouraged by the admninistration), end the fascist corporatism and start protecting the people from the abuses of major corporations (and a corporate personhood is a fallacy and a slap in the face of every freedom loving capitalist American – a corporation is not a person and is NOT entitled to the same protections as a person under the law), stop cronyism that endangers our safety and security (I have no problem with appointing cronys to insignifigant jobs, but not to major appointments: and if the job is insignifigant, perhaps it is unnecessary…), stop secret partisan political agenda meetings (every meeting of the parties should be open to the public and televised – if it is government business, then it should NEVER EVER be exclusively partisan (as the GOP regularly does), and whether open to the public or not depends on whether classified information is being discussed), etc., etc,. etc……
November 9th, 2005 at 10:41 amIt is evident that the rightwinger Christians want to bring back the auto-de-fey. Isn’t that the Christian way? Inquisitions, witch hunts, genocide and theft (i.e. Conquistadors), etc. Tradition, you know… “It’s o.k. to torture in the name of God” (just wait, some buffoon will make a comment soon that amounts to that… if someone hasn’t already)….
November 9th, 2005 at 10:53 amHowdy ‘merkins.
What you need to do is remove your illegal government. They are lying to you and stiffing you, spending your taxes on war and killing your kids.
Use force if necessary, the rest of the world ARE with the American people but not the govt.
choz
November 9th, 2005 at 11:47 amMarie,
Thank you. I’m sure we could all add more to that list, but it is complete enough for the moment. I read it to my wife last night as I felt it was a good response, and she thought so too.
I am not an American. I have only been living here for six years. But, I think that the question and answer are bigger than nationality. No matter which side of any given fence you sit on, I would hope that Torture is not acceptable to your values system. I tried to put down the simple reasons why, without going into the technicalities of “it’s against the geneva convention” or “it doesn’t work” or…
If anyone feels that they can use that response for anything positive then please feel free to do so.
Z.
November 9th, 2005 at 2:45 pmOK, that’s it–round up these bloody morons and send THEM to Gitmo! Isn’t this kind of TV programming’ considered violent?!
November 9th, 2005 at 4:23 pm#51, Knowing that you are here only 6 years makes your comments even more meaningful.
November 9th, 2005 at 6:48 pmZwack,
I agree that torture ought to be against everybody’s principles and values system.
The problem is that the FauxNews-watching pseudo-neocon crowd does not have a problem with torture, because –they say– those being tortured are people who “want to kill us”, who “hate us”, “are Islamic radicals”, “hate everything we stand for”, etc. They ask “who cares what happens to *them* anyway?”. And if you raise your voice, you become a traitor and a terrorist yourself.
That crowd is busy coming up with rationalisations that excuse the degradation of people they consider to be lesser. These apologists don’t realise that those excuses can only work if the other side is first dehumanised. They also don’t realise that those excuses can be used against anyone. Some of them actually do think of Arabs, and Muslims in general as almost un-human.
Read some of the comments that advocate torture here and you will see what I mean.
November 9th, 2005 at 6:55 pmOn what date did this air? I need to find proof of its existence on FauxNews so that my conservative friends will believe that the screenshot is not Photoshopped.
November 9th, 2005 at 7:22 pmI think the following quote from this article pretty much sums up what the Bush administration has been doin for 5 years.
(begin quote)
[The problem is] the perception that we tossed off
(end quote)
What a bunch of tossers they are! They’ve squandered our good name, our good will, our good credit and our good children for a meaningless war, meant only to enrich their friends and allies.
The irony nearly chokes me as I hear Bush say that Libby is innocent until proven guilty, while we intern people in foreign jails to be tortured who have not even been charged with a crime.
Who will fight to bring democracy to America? We sure can’t trust Bush & Cheney to bring it to us, like they did for the folks in New Orleans. Or Iraq, Or Afghanistan, Or………
November 9th, 2005 at 11:43 pmGregor Samsa,
I agree with you that while people should disagree with torture on principle the pro-torture contingent are trying to rationalise torture and dehumanise their intended victims.
There are arguments that can be used against these, and we need to push the debate back… Here are some things that might help…
“These are people that hate us/want to kill us” Do you think that torturing them will make them hate us less/less likely to try and kill us? Do you think that they won’t use us torturing people as a recruitment tool? What about cases of mistaken identity? We are recruiting for our enemies with this policy.
“You are un-American for disagreeing with Torture” Since when was standing up for freedom, dignity and morality unAmerican? Torture is un-American as it denies due process. Do we torture people who plead the Fifth now?
Z.
November 10th, 2005 at 1:41 pm[...] Thursday that while he believed illegal activity should not take place at detention centers, he believes the leak itself poses a greater threat to national security and is ‘not concerned about what goes on‘ behind the prison walls.” Or as Fox News might ask, “Why all the fuss?“ 2:38 pm | Comment (0) [...]
November 10th, 2005 at 2:43 pm“…from a functional standpoint, I think it may have put our own troops in danger.”
Oh cool. If we stop, maybe the next time they behead someone they’ll use a Geneva convention approved knife.
Personally, I have no problem with torture. If it is the price we have to pay to prevent a dirty bomb from going off or another 9/11, then so be it. They already hate us. We are already infidels. War/torture/whatever doesn’t make them hate us any more. We’ve been The Great Satan since the Carter administration.
Mistaken identity? It’s the price you pay. We put innocent people in jail for life, or even worse to death, for crimes they didn’t commit. On the other hand, we let O.J. go free. Nobody likes it. It’s not a perfect system and never will be.
If you disagree with me, you aren’t a traitor. You just disagree with me. That is why America is a great country.
November 10th, 2005 at 3:00 pm#9 – Because “wanting us dead†and killing us are not the same thing.
Because two wrongs don’t make a right.
Because if we stoop to a new low, and they stoop lower we’ll go lower still.
Because an eye for an eye and we all go blind.
Because we should claim the moral high ground.
Because we haven’t even proved that they want us dead.
Because we are all human.
Because everyone makes mistakes, let’s not make them uncorrectable.
Because we don’t want to be the monsters that we are scared of.
Because there are worse things than having enemies.
Because we are better than that.
Because we have ideals.
Because we have Morals.
Because we should do what is right.
Just Because! Comment by Zwack
**** Zwack, let me add a couple of more timely cliches to your heartfelt list:
November 10th, 2005 at 3:26 pmBecause our favourite religious underDOGS are Muslims.
Because we deserve to be attacked due to our foriegn policy.
Peace. Love. Prius.
Mighty Aphrodite…
Neither of your comments are cliches, but cliches become cliches precisely because they express an obvious statement well.
I wouldn’t include either of your comments for the following reasons…
“Because our favourite religious underDOGS are Muslims.”
Actually, you’re wrong. My favourite religious underdogs are the strange teapot worshipping cult from Malaysia. See the following article for more information…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4692039.stm
You might want to notice that they are being condemned by Muslims… Other than them, the cult of the golden calf, and the Pastafarians have to be high on my list of favourite religions. My personal faith is nothing to do with any of these, I just get a kick out of them.
“Because we deserve to be attacked due to our foreign policy.”
Well, that depends what you mean. If you mean lying to start a war, invading another country, and then holding innocent people for years without trial (some people from Guantanamo have been released because the government realised that they were indeed innocent), I think that that does deserve some kind of response. Whether that response is physically attacking the invading forces, or verbally attacking the people behind these actions is a matter for people to decide for themselves. As a pacifist I would choose the latter. If you mean the original 9/11 attacks then that has nothing to do with torture. The torture has happened since then. Whether it is officially condoned or “just a few bad apples” remains to be seen. The fact that some forms of torture have occurred is fairly clear by now.
Now, please feel free to go back to Paphos and return from whence you came.
Z.
November 10th, 2005 at 4:20 pmEd,
Thank you for not being a troll. Taking your comments backwards…
“If you disagree with me, you aren’t a traitor. You just disagree with me. That is why America is a great country.”
Agreed, and refreshing to hear it. Unfortunately I’ve also heard people say things like “you’re either with us or you’re with the terrorists”. This implies that there is no room for dissent.
“Mistaken identity? It’s the price you pay. We put innocent people in jail for life, or even worse to death, for crimes they didn’t commit. On the other hand, we let O.J. go free. Nobody likes it. It’s not a perfect system and never will be.”
I used to work in the Health Physics section of a Nuclear physics lab. In that field systems are designed to fail safe. You don’t want a safety door that sticks open, you want one that slams shut if not held open. I would rather that guilty people were not killed than that innocent people were. You can’t bring people back from the dead and saying “Whoops, My bad!” is no consolation to the dead person.
“Personally, I have no problem with torture. If it is the price we have to pay to prevent a dirty bomb from going off or another 9/11, then so be it. They already hate us. We are already infidels. War/torture/whatever doesn’t make them hate us any more. We’ve been The Great Satan since the Carter administration.”
But, torture someone enough and they will tell you what they think you want to hear. Whether it is true or not is beside the point. As a result it won’t prevent all dirty bombs, 9/11s, or whatever. Sure, some of them already hate us. Some of them already believe that we are infidels/beyond redemption/The Great Satan/Whatever. But some of them don’t… yet. If we torture we are showing them that we are as bad, or even worse than the people we are replacing. If you think that the war is not changing minds you’re not paying attention. The Israelis, amongst others, have already declared that the war in Iraq is gaining recruits for the other side. If one of our actions is actively encouraging people to fight against us then I think that we should look into it further and see whether it is justified. I can see no valid reason for torture, and many reasons against it.
““…from a functional standpoint, I think it may have put our own troops in danger.â€
Oh cool. If we stop, maybe the next time they behead someone they’ll use a Geneva convention approved knife.”
I don’t think that the Geneva convention approves of beheading prisoners… No… It probably doesn’t. But we can’t control what others are doing. We can control what we are doing. If we torture people, andf that provides no tangible benefits, and it is helping the other side recruit more people, then why should we continue to do it. What advantage does it give us? None! It is a disadvantage. If arming our troops with baseball bats proved to be a disadvantage to them in combat with people armed with guns would you continue to do it? No, you would find something that worked. Perhaps if they had perfect body armour as well you wouldn’t give them guns, as the bats would be sufficient. But you wouldn’t just leave them with the bats.
Z.
November 10th, 2005 at 5:11 pmZwack,
I think you just found out what I was talking about in my earlier post.
You took a stand for what should be a moral cause –and you are being ridiculed.
For Mighty Aphrodite torture is just fine. After all, as she expressed in a feeble attempt at sarcasm, Muslims do not deserve anyone’s respect. She also thinks that the U.S. is simply responding –as if the U.S. were the victims and not the aggressors.
She is not alone in that belief. See Ed’s comment.
“No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture”
– UN Convention against Torture
The U.S. are a signatory nation of the convention.
Torture is a war crime.
November 10th, 2005 at 5:15 pmGregor,
Thank you for your comments. I was aware of exactly what you menat. I think Ed is mistaken but brings a much better viewpoint than the usual trolls we see on here. He argues against the argument rather than just producing ad hominem attacks.
As for “mighty” aphrodite, I still have trouble believing that anyone could write that.
Still, I think my answers are correct. Although I suspect Aphrodite of more Pathos than Paphos.
Z.
November 10th, 2005 at 5:26 pmI’m afraid I don’t remember the exact quote,but it goes something like” When you look into the face of evil,evil is also looking into you.” It is very easy to rationalise the the most evil actions.Torture is evil,no matter who commits it,for whatever reason. Our leaders have stared into the face of evil for far too long and beleive their own rhetoric.They see enemies everywhere,just as a thief sees people trying to steal from them at every turn.They look in a mirror and feel that if the face they see in the mirror is capable of such horrific acts,then everyone else must be worse.Paranoid delusions, delusions of granduer,all the classic symptoms of psychosis,becoming codified and made the law of the land.They have found the new demon to replace “communism”. Terrorists are lurking around every corner in their small evil minds,and they will soon start to turn on each other.Let them torture each other to death as they confess to themselves how they have turned America into just another dictatorship.
November 10th, 2005 at 6:10 pmTorture and Treason and Lies OH MY
November 10th, 2005 at 7:44 pmSomeone may have mentioned this already, but by far the worst aspect of torture, IMO, is the fact that it attracts and institutionalizes sociopaths who enjoy employing it.
November 10th, 2005 at 10:22 pmI want vengance on the shrub and his master. The best I can think of is that the vast majority of people show the disdain I feel. I know that’s cruel but they deserve it.
November 10th, 2005 at 10:43 pmWhat’s all the fuss??
If Republicans and Conservatives are truly asking this question, then they are truly not the “good Christians” they claim to be,
I find it amazing that the Right has so easily co-opted an entire religion and made it the basis of their whole “moral” political platform, only to commit acts of greed and treachery at every turn.
it’s evil evil evil.
November 11th, 2005 at 5:45 pmbandy- Of course richwingers are evil, why else wouldn’t they agree with you? If they agreed with you, then they’d be good! AGREED….A-GREED….wait a minute, they’ve managed to slip in an evil word into joining the ranks of lefty sainthood! Damn them…..
November 26th, 2005 at 11:38 amWe hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
November 26th, 2005 at 4:02 pmWhat if the torture is takin to far and someone is killed and that person was an innocent bistandard? Is that person punished? Sentenced to life in prison?
December 13th, 2005 at 3:51 pmWould it be right if someone came into our land and and pulled some completly innocent person aside and tortured them, when they had absolutly nothing to do with it.
THATS SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT!!!!!!!
U agree, Screw them, I’ve been to Iraq and screw the Iraqie people trying to kill us. Let them know who they are dealing with!
April 3rd, 2006 at 3:15 pmAs for me I really understand very much about whole trend Global situation ongoing in the world, to many people try to discriminate and deter the human dignity beyond all the aspect of the human being life. Someone suspect that it is may happen because of religion, racial, and also another point of views. But now here I would like to suggest that we might learn more why and where it use to be happening, I thing it must to be happen because of the conscience of the individual who may creating this bed doing. Nowadays to many countries in the worldwide, war, human right violence, torturing, intimidation, discrimination, exploitation, persecution are part of life, for instance another part of the world which is West Papua, the bed treatment mentioned above are ongoing happening since Indonesian Government integrated back in 1961 until nowadays.
I am really sorry if I disturbing you with this topic, I hope this topic above use to be a general discussion because it is an International case that must to be tackle by International point of views. If there is not attention from the international community West Papuan people more and more will destroy in its home land. And whole international community and United Nation human right affairs shall be live watcher and witness for that.
Any how, I hope this topic above will be a global discussion for you guys.
November 16th, 2006 at 7:41 pmWest Papua people and I will pray for you!
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