Senate Suspended Right to Challenge Detention After A Single Hour of Debate
Senate Suspended Right to Challenge Detention After A Single Hour of Debate
Today, the Senate is expected to decide whether to reinstate the fundamental right of habeas corpus (i.e., the right to force the government to justify a person’s punishment) that is set to be stripped from Guantanamo Bay detainees as a result of the passage of Sen. Lindsey Graham’s (R-SC) amendment last week.
The seriousness of suspending habeas corpus (a concept dating back to the English Magna Carta of 1297) is evidenced by its rarity in American history. Abraham Lincoln was the last president to take that step. His actions, despite coming in the midst of our nation’s only civil war, have “come to be seen as a blemish on an otherwise heroic record of wartime leadership.”
According to Knight Ridder, the Senate voted to approve the Graham amendment “after an hour of debate.” It says much about the value that Senate conservatives have for our basic rights that they would roll them back after virtually zero deliberation.
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The apt pupils of Rove know there is no accountability for the GOP one party rule, so why not re-write history and the law.
November 14th, 2005 at 12:23 pmWhere is the so-called opposition party?
Another reason why this liberal is not a registered Dem.
November 14th, 2005 at 12:28 pmIf we suspend the right of habeas corpus from Gitmo detainees, it will be SO much easier to suspend it from the rest of us later. Careful of those baby steps…
November 14th, 2005 at 12:34 pmTo turn a blind eye to justice for those who are deemed to be criminal is a sad statement for the U.S. It’s apparent that the transparency required for freedom of information has been concealed in the midst of deceit and tyranny for everyone who opposes the so-called DEMOCRACY that exists within this administration…
The right to a trial is the cornerstone of justice and yet, we allow the GOP to disregard this principle on the basis of a corrupt Governor (President) and CEO (Vice President)…
I can ONLY hope that the right-wingers who support them are accused for crimes against humanity and jailed without proof or cause, and let them scream for their rights to those who they have alienated and countries who deem them as criminal…
November 14th, 2005 at 12:50 pmHere’s a fascinating document on the conditions that create torture, written by a sociologist who has studied the problem for years. No wonder the US is torturing its prisoners (”detainees”): the system it created is designed to promote torture.
November 14th, 2005 at 1:03 pm#4 – Absolutely, IraqVet. Thank you for serving, I hope you are home and safe.
November 14th, 2005 at 1:03 pm“I can ONLY hope that the right-wingers who support them are accused for crimes against humanity and jailed without proof or cause, and let them scream for their rights blah blah blah…”
So you want to see your fellow citizens locked up and charged with war crimes? Because they don’t agree with your shrill self-righteousness?
But the not-covered-by-the-Geneva-conventions combatants who took up arms against your fellow servicemen and women – they should be furnished with lawyers and full access to the federal courts?
November 14th, 2005 at 1:04 pmthe boston globe has a pretty good editorial today on habeas…
“US troops are fighting to safeguard the United States, with its guarantees of personal liberty, not to have civil rights limited in the name of national security.”
yes… absolutely… this is indeed one of the very rights we consider precious and that we send our troops to face possible death to save… as a country, we need to be able to look ourselves in the mirror every morning…
http://takeitpersonally.blogspot.com/2005/11/boston-globes-view-on-habeas-corpus.html
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2005/11/14/abused_by_the_senate/
jeralyn also has a good post referencing a denver post article on attorneys volunteering their time to assist guantanamo detainees…
“When many of these prisoners arrived in American custody, they were initially relieved to be in the control of a country that valued justice and due process.
“Four years later, many just want to die. They starve themselves for long periods of time and attempt bloody suicides.”
http://takeitpersonally.blogspot.com/2005/11/they-wont-let-us-live-but-they-wont.html
http://talkleft.com/new_archives/013110.html
http://www.denverpost.com/perspective/ci_3203612
November 14th, 2005 at 1:17 pmDemocrats move to restore Habeus Corpus after backlash:
http://www.democracynow.org/arti…5/11/14/ 1447232
November 14th, 2005 at 1:26 pm#7
That is not what he said. He commented that SINCE the Gitmo prisoners have been denied a BASIC AMERICAN MORAL CONCEPT – that of a fair judiciary: innocent until proven guilty, speedy trial, etc. – THEN it would be justice for those who can be accused of warcrimes to be thusly imprisoned (with or without proof – as that is the condition of a Gitmo prisoner: no evidence that is sustainable in a just court is necessary). It would also be a pleasing irony.
The concept of “not covered by the Geneva conventions” is unconstitutional.
Article 6: This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.
Note that it says that ALL TREATIES MADE SHALL BE THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND. In other words, if the US makes a treaty, it is bound by the limitations of that treaty as if it were federal law. You can’t pick and choose. Or do you think that the detainees all MUST be guilty of being terrorists who were planning on killing Americans and ready to do so? Do you think that the detainees are less than human, and thus don’t deserve the right to priciples that AMERICANS believe to basic to morality, freedom, and justice?
Section 9: The priveledge of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.
November 14th, 2005 at 1:38 pm(note: we have no American rebellion, nor an invasion of our soil).
Bush and his friends in the admin want to overturn the Constitution. They are traitors and they hate America and all Americans. Your unquestioning support aids them, and offers aid and comfort to the enemy. The Al Qaeda LOVE Bush – because of his policies they went from being a mid-eastern gang of rabble to a worldwide network of a ridiculous number of members. All they have to do is find America haters, and they have some strong potential new recruits (being Islamic is, I’d wager, somewhat optional to them… if you’re willing to fight for them). Hmmm… you seem to hate America and our constitution… are you one of them?
unrelated but interesting…
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1529
Powerful Government Accountability Office report confirms key 2004 stolen election findings
by Bob Fitrakis & Harvey Wasserman
October 26, 2005
As a legal noose appears to be tightening around the Bush/Cheney/Rove inner circle, a shocking government report shows the floor under the legitimacy of their alleged election to the White House is crumbling.
The latest critical confirmation of key indicators that the election of 2004 was stolen comes in an extremely powerful, penetrating report from the Government Accountability Office that has gotten virtually no mainstream media coverage.
November 14th, 2005 at 1:39 pmTORTURE CHENEY!
Let’s use the VP’s own logic against him. I can hardly imagine a more grave nor more imminent threat to national security than having a Vice President who is implicated in the sacrifice of a covert CIA operative. Cheney thinks torture is a legitimate and effective way to get the truth from people? Let’s try it out on him. While we’re at it, let’s do it publicly so that the American people can make an informed decision as to the efficacy and morality of such practices.
November 14th, 2005 at 1:55 pmThere is a Bingamann ammendent out there to strip the Graham Ammendment of the habeas corpus language. I don’t know if they’ll vote today or tomorrow…
November 14th, 2005 at 1:58 pmAmendment VIII – Cruel and Unusual punishment. Ratified 12/15/1791.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
November 14th, 2005 at 2:05 pmThe administration is starting to get desperate. The right hand doesn’t know what the left is doing:
November 14th, 2005 at 2:05 pmhttp://whatamockery.com/2005/11/we-dont-torture-well-ok-maybe-we-do.html
Senate taking away right whose origin dates back
There are some rights that are basic and should apply in all circumstances. One of them is the fundamental right of to demand the government justify its punishment of a person. It’s a right that traces its origin back to the Magna Carta of 1297. The …
November 14th, 2005 at 2:09 pmThat this suspension has passed the Senate is alarming — and it should be alarming for all of us. A basic requirement which contributed to our democratic judicial system is going to be removed from the detainees. Who will be the next group deemed to be excluded from basic rights?
November 14th, 2005 at 2:11 pmThis is another step toward fascism. If one wants to learn how Germany came into power pre-WWII with the tacit approval of the German citizenry, one need only look at what is happening in America today.
You can follow this link to get the Toll Free number to call your Senators.
(And here it is again, in case I don’t know what I am doing with this posting interface.)
http://www.millionphonemarch.com/habeas.htm
November 14th, 2005 at 2:15 pmLooks like Ohio’s vote was severely hacked again in Ohio.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/111405O.shtml
Issue Three involved campaign finance reform. In a lame duck session at the end of 2004, Ohio’s Republican legislature raised the limits for individual donations to $10,000 per candidate per person for anyone over the age of six. Thus a family of four could donate $40,000 to a single candidate. The law also opened the door for direct campaign donations from corporations, something banned by federal law since the administration of Theodore Roosevelt.
The GOP measure sparked howls of public outrage. Though again opposed by the Christian Right, Issue Three drew an extremely broad range of support from moderate bi-partisan citizen groups and newspapers throughout the state. The Sunday Dispatch poll showed it winning in a landslide, with 61% in favor and just 25% opposed.
Tuesday’s official results showed Issue Three going down to defeat in perhaps the most astonishing reversal in Ohio history, claiming just 33% of the vote, with 67% opposed. For this to have happened, Issue Three’s polled support had to drop 28 points, again with an apparent 100% opposition from the previously undecideds.
November 14th, 2005 at 2:25 pmSo you folks believe that any and all – no matter their nationality, or where they were captured – should have access to the federal courts?
November 14th, 2005 at 2:37 pmWe have two threads today that augur worsening times for Americans. This one about the removal of democratic law for detainees, and the next one, about the preemptive disallowance of birthcontrol pills for women. The dictators are, by decree, dominating, without recourse, their prisoners in this way and their women in the other.
November 14th, 2005 at 2:38 pmThis fascist regime must come to an end.
#21, so you would allow your government to rewrite its rules of democracy based upon who is disfavored at the time?
Remember that most of the detainees were never charged, but were merely caught up in a dragnet.
Do you recall the poem by Pastor Niemoller in Berlin, Germany in 1939:
First they came for the Jews
November 14th, 2005 at 2:47 pmand I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
tomaig,
Yes. If americans detain prisoners, those prisoners should have access to due process. Otherwise we’re nothing more than the same sort of totalitarian regimes we’ve criticized in the past.
When americans in the past were detained abroad and held without trial, republicans have been the first to raise their voices in the past about the obscenity of this. Clearly this is just one more example of republican hypocrisy!
November 14th, 2005 at 2:47 pmAnd FYI Tomaig, many of these ‘detainees’ turn out to be INNOCENT, despite being held for YEARS. Hundreds of prisoners who were held ‘black’ have been released because they were found to be innocent, MANY WERE RELEASED AFTER BEING TORTURED. Not only is this an afront to all true american values, it’s nothing more than the actions of a petty dictator! We are above this sort of inhumanity, at least democrats are. Republicans however seem to be taking their moral cues from Saddam and Iran!
November 14th, 2005 at 2:49 pmThe consequences of this administration will be truly staggering when written about in the future. We think about this stuff every day and make jokes, but the bigger picture is truly dark and frightful. Deceptions to war, secret torture camps, loss of habeas corpus, a far-right theocracy suppressing everything that doesn’t agree with their ideology, rulers who are criminals. 4 years ago this would have described Afghanistan. Now it describes us. It’s mind-boggling.
If you argue that Bin Laden set out to destroy our way of life, then you could also say he’s winning.
November 14th, 2005 at 2:55 pmThe US Constitution speaks to the rights of citizens of the United States. While it may be a moral thing to extend those rights to enemy combatants, there’s no implicit manadate for the extension of our constitutional rights to those at Gitmo for example. It’s not outrageous to suspend habeas corpus given the type of individuals we’re dealing with (you know, the one’s who have proven they’d slice our heads off if given the chance). I understand that not all enemy combatants are heinous monsters, and that we shouldn’t treat our prisoners the way they seem to be treating those they capture (who are often business contractors and not soldiers by the way) but they were, in fact, caught in the field of battle. I also think it’s a stretch to link this decision with the roll back of citizens rights. I don’t want people to get tortured, but neither do I think they should be allowed to access our federal judicial system because they happen to not like getting caught when battling out troops. Moreover, didn’t we release a whole bunch of Gitmo detainees not that long ago (thereby possibly proving that these chaps aren’t there indefinitely without some evidence that they need to be)? Just a thought …
Hitler’s facism, by the way, was an extreme form of leftism, so you (we) may wish to stop using him as an example of where this administration is headed.
November 14th, 2005 at 2:59 pmYeah but tomaig can’t curl up with his hot mug of cocoa and his bunny slippers every night, without knowing that the bad guys are getting theirs. Watch that shadow tomaig.
November 14th, 2005 at 3:00 pmGiacomo,
You’re a moron. Hitler was RIGHTWING. You’ve been listening to too much limbaugh and coulter, because they’ve made you stupid!
Leftwing fascism is like saying rightwing communism – it’s an oxymoron and a contradiction by nature. Fascism IS RIGHTWING, a leftwing fascist is complete and utter gibberish!
YOU ARE A RETARDE FOOL!
As for who we’re dealing with, you mean like the HUNDREDS OF INNOCENTS we released? Habeous corpus is there to protect the innocent, but clearly you don’t care about innocent people – you fascist whacko!
November 14th, 2005 at 3:03 pm“but they were, in fact, caught in the field of battle. I also think it’s a stretch to link this decision with the roll back of citizens rights.”GiacomoTheRepublicanRETARD
That’s a lie. An AMERICAN CHAPLIN was held at GITMO, and subsequently released. Many of the other prisoners were kidnapped from their homes around the world.
YOU ARE A PROPAGANDA LIAR, FOOL AND TRAITOR TO THIS COUNTRY!
November 14th, 2005 at 3:06 pmSome easily confused progressives are under the erroneous impression that POW’s are entitled to due process. They are not your garden variety criminal. They are entitled to humane treatment – nothing more, nothing less.
I’m sure if Nico, RyANNe, Marie, etc. were in charge of waging the Civil War – the Confederacy would have won.
November 14th, 2005 at 3:08 pmGiacomo is somehow conflating communism and nazism with the Democratic “left” as opposed to the Republican “right.” Hitler was RIGHTWING. People must rmember to look things up before spouting someone else’s talking points — Fox news is not a good source.
November 14th, 2005 at 3:12 pmMightyRetardedMoron,
Someone who was kidnapped with ‘extraordinary rendition’ is not a POW you retarded cow!
Not to mention that most of the prisoners are captured as ‘unlawful combatants’, which means they aren’t POWs at all, so your slobbering moos are irrelevant as usual.
“Captured combatants who are not entitled to POW status have been described as “unlawful combatants” or “non-privileged combatants, ” although neither term is found in the Geneva Conventions. Such persons are still protected under the Geneva Conventions, but under the provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. This Convention also applies to civilian non-combatants who are affected by the conflict and due special protections as “protected persons.””
Civilian Persons are entitled to Civilian trials you moron. Where did you get your law degree, the 7/11?
November 14th, 2005 at 3:15 pmTrolls on this site will be relieved when they are finally shown to be thoughtless fools that we “lefties” would never suspend their right to habeus corpus. Historians say that Lincolns’ suspending h.b. during the Civil War was one of the few blots on his presidency.
November 14th, 2005 at 3:15 pmIf we followed their logic, we would have O’Lielly in chains now unable to consult his attorney.
Marie,
Remember the trolls are the ones that believe Lincoln’s action in this matter were correct, and that McCarthyism was good. They’re the fringe lunatics of fascism that also ran Nazi Germany. They’re insane whackos as the trolls today clearly demostrate. They need medication and a straight jacket to subdue their violent urges!
November 14th, 2005 at 3:17 pm“Facism is leftist” is a real funny twisted way of saying that any extreme position lies on the left.The right wing propagadist are insane because that logic has your gas gauge reading full and at the same time reading empty. Pretty useless.
November 14th, 2005 at 3:20 pmtomaig, aphrodite, and others might want to check this op-ed in today’s WaPo:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/13/AR2005111301061.html
There’s an argument to made about the legal distinctions of just who’s protected under the Constitution, but I’d find it hard to understand anyone who reads this and still supports Graham’s amendment. If a prisoner at Gitmo is guilty, habeas corpus won’t somehow exonerate him, and if it gives a chance to the poor schmucks kidnapped by some Army-financed bounty hunter (”fields of battle” indeed…) to prove their innocence, what’s the argument, exactly?
November 14th, 2005 at 3:23 pm#30
Ryan, let us not foget about the Associated Press photographer that was held for 5-6 months then released. They wouldn’t let him talk to anybody. He was lucky that he was part of the AP, or he would still be there.
November 14th, 2005 at 3:27 pmThe issue of habeus corpus proceedings requires some greater understanding than have been previously expressed in this thread. Habeus petitions are brought to challenge the constitutionality of one’s detention. Citizens of the United States are entitled to certain due process rights. As Mysticagent pointed out above, our government is bound not only by the laws adopted by congress, but also by treaties entered into with sovereign nations. The Geneva Convention is one such treaty, and signatories to that treaty are bound by it’s proscriptions.
The issue with detainees at Gitmo is whether they are entitled to protection under the Geneva convention. Are they mercenaries or serving a sovereign nation? I don’t pretend to know the answer, but I thought I’d offer the context for the debate.
November 14th, 2005 at 3:28 pmWhat does intelligence value have to do with unlawful detention? Sen Graham (R-SC) has repeatedly said that some “enemy combatants” are being held because the have intelligence value.
According to the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC) A lawful combatant is an individual authorized by governmental authority or the LOAC to engage in hostilities. A lawful combatant may be a member of a regular armed force or an irregular force. In either case, the lawful combatant must be commanded by a person responsible for subordinates; have fixed distinctive emblems recognizable at a distance, such as uniforms; carry arms openly; and conduct his or her combat operations according to the LOAC. The LOAC applies to lawful combatants who engage in the hostilities of armed conflict and provides combatant immunity for their lawful warlike acts during conflict, except for LOAC violations.
Last time I checked, none of the detainees meet this criteria.
November 14th, 2005 at 3:29 pm“Hitler’s facism, by the way, was an extreme form of leftism”
Somehow, coming from someone justifying the supsension of habeus corpus, this just doesn’t surprise me anymore. And you are as ill-informed on history as you seem to be on matters judicial. If the Nazi’s were the extreme liberals that you claim, I seriously doubt Prescott Bush would have been financing them. Not using the judicial system that has sustained this country throughout its history, to try those that we accuse of whatever crimes, says a lot more about us than any charicature of “terrorists” or “evildoers,” could ever say about those you try to denigrate. If they are guilty, try them fairly, and sentence them accordingly.
And, as far as releasing Gitmo detainees, why release them if they are guilty? Why keep them locked up for years, yes, years, if they are not? These are things that need to be decided in a courtroom, not in the Oval Office, or the Pentagon, or a torture chamber. I know, it’s easier to just echo some administration tool and say that they are all terrorists, but common sense, and those detainee releases you allude to, prove otherwise.
November 14th, 2005 at 3:30 pmRyANNe – Unlawful combatants (not detained in the US), are not entitled to POW status or Habeus Corpus – go back to the IRS and audit taxpayers! Why don’t you donate some of your vast wealth to a shyster Arab charity and buy your compatriots some uniforms? Can you whistle “Dixie”???
November 14th, 2005 at 3:31 pmLets see a list of how the Senate voted. Personally, this bothers me more than letting the CIA torture, which bothers me quite a bit–I would like to know how we tell the good guys from the bad guys and torture is not going to be the test, assasination is not going to be the test, so what is going to be the test? A couple of the far right comments seem to buy into the notion that allowing these people access to a court is tantamount to setting them free- the old “activist courts” myth. That is hardly the case and I personally fear my government a lot more than I do any foreigners. The Constitution is under assault and while the courts may not be perfect defenders of that Constitution, the vote shows that they are a hell of lot better than the United States Senate.
November 14th, 2005 at 3:35 pmNicole – Broaden your horizons beyond some ’70’s counter-culture rag. Find some fresh whiners.
November 14th, 2005 at 3:37 pmI read that article Jamie posted … very compelling. There is clearly something wrong when such a thing happens. I would question if there are hundreds of “Adels” at places like Gitmo, or if he is the exception … we can’t possibly know. What I do want to ask is, can there be a way to release the “Adels”, AND rescind habeas corpus (thereby preventing the abuse of the system by the Non-Adels, if you will) … I’d say yes but maybe I’m naive.
It’s supremely interesting to me that I make one or two comments on this site and am branded a lunatic. Is that because it’s easier to dismiss a person if they’re a “Republican RETARD” rather than actually think about what they’re saying and rebut (or, gasp, agree) meaningfully.
One of the reasons I read this site is to see what others (yes, I tend to lean more conservative) may be thinking, as opposed to the michelle malkins of the world … I guess maybe I shouldn’t try and have a discourse but I was hoping that there were those here that, while leaning left, didn’t think they had the entire world already figured out (and thus would be less likely to spew venom) … I could be very wrong
November 14th, 2005 at 3:37 pmMightyHermaphrodite,
The Geneva convention disagrees with you, but wait, that’s right. Republicans don’t agree with the geneva conventions – right? International law is just ‘inconvenient’, right?
Foreigners in the United States include permanent residents; people legally admitted for work, education, or tourism; refugees; asylum seekers; and people with temporary protected status. All of these noncitizens — including those here illegally — are guaranteed almost all the same rights as citizens. In fact, only three constitutional rights — voting in elections, holding certain political offices, and the absolute ability to enter and remain in the country — are denied noncitizens outright. Otherwise, the Constitution grants to “the people†or “persons†— not just to citizens — the rights to due process and equal protection of the law, to freedom of speech and assembly, and to freedom from arbitrary detention or cruel and unusual punishments.
November 14th, 2005 at 3:39 pm42 re-read my post 37 … maybe you’ll undertand what I was trying to say …
November 14th, 2005 at 3:40 pmGiacomo,
Say something meaningful, and I’ll retort meaningful. Falsely accusing fascism of being ‘liberal’ is just an expression of your ignorance, and thereby merits the description of ‘retard’ for you.
November 14th, 2005 at 3:41 pmMightyWhiner,
Stop whining, then you’ll have the grounds to suggest that behavior modification to others. Your ‘whines’ on liberals is as outdated as your haircut and wardrobe. You’re just a fat stupid old fool, who knows nothing. You claim to be a lawyer, yet me as a non laywer clearly know more than you do!
You’re a fraud and a fool!
November 14th, 2005 at 3:43 pmGiacomo,
My experience is that when a republican posts one lunatic comment, they don’t stop coming. You tend to be a pretty consistently brainwashed and retarded group.
Prove me wrong, and I’ll be happy to rescind my judgement!
November 14th, 2005 at 3:44 pmGiacomo,
You want to know what we’re thinking?
We’re thinking republicans are now full on fascists.
We’re thinking republicans prefer torture over civility.
We’re thinking republicans prefer secret prisons to an open society.
We’re thinking republicans are turning us into Saddam’s Iraq while pretending to protect us from it.
We’re thinking republicans are religious zealot retards who can’t distinguish mythology from reality.
We’re thinking republicans are so stupid and greedy they’re willing to destroy a civil society so they can by a third vacation home.
We’re thinking republicans are so corrupt and such cronyists, that everyone in the government is now a baffoon!
We’re thinking republican evil and ineptitude has destroyed 200+ years of creating an image as the country of honesty, fairness and integrity.
We’re thinking republicans are so foolish they’ll flush the whole country down the toilet in their foolishness and greed!
That’s just part of what we’re thinking! What are you thinking?
November 14th, 2005 at 3:50 pmVietnam Veterans may dispute some claims to those who would discard our time-honored principles at a time of CONFLICT…not WAR!
I think the language has been twisted for the rules of engagement, because as far as I know, all combat operations have ceased (with exception to the last call for strikes against insurgency)…Still, what war are we talking about?
The Iraq citizens just had a vote? Hmmm…That is not a war! The Iraqi people do not trust us? Hmmm…That is not a war! Condi Rice just visited and talked about establishing peace (BTW, THAT is NEVER going to happen) Hmmmm…That is not a war!
The predisposition to call this a war would be equivalent to calling Sept 11th a war against the Middle East! That IS NOT the case and the people who committed the crimes are dead and/or hiding, and WE are fighting the friends! So PLEASE tell me, WHERE IS THE WAR???
This is a CONFLICT! We created it, and we bear the price and burden to see it through to a sensible conclusion! There IS NOT going to be victory here! Can ANYONE say that they have awaken to bomb blasts? I can say I have! Can anyone say that they have been ILLEGALLY retained in the MILITARY? I can say that I have! Can any say that they HAVE NO CHOICE but to put their lives on the line each day, NOT KNOWING if they will see their children? I can say that I have…
So it is all too easy to sit in the convenience of knowing that the freedoms that are taken away in the name of justice is easily discarded by a keyboard, when many of us serving knows that the same disregard for those freedoms will be extracted upon us if we are captured…
I’d rather die knowing that my country DID NOT forsake the morals and rules of government for convenience, rather than, standing on principle, even though it is not popular, but still the right thing to do…THERE IS NEVER A WRONG TIME TO DO THE RIGHT THING…Apparently OUR Governor (President) has forgotten that, and uses people (conservatives) to cover his guilt and deceit…
Little consolation for the flag draped over 2000+ coffins…UNBELIEVABLE!
November 14th, 2005 at 3:53 pmRyan,
You mean you don’t know one level headed right leaning person … now you do, pleased to meet you. It’s surprising to me that because I may disagree with you, I’m stupid or brainwashed … because I may have a different vision or idea somehow, I’m less of a person, retarded if you will … sounds vaguely … Nazi like? (No, I’m not calling you a Nazi so chill)
November 14th, 2005 at 3:53 pmRyan,
Personally, I say get rid of the party system and have people run on their own merits … this whole all republicans are idiots and then the other side yells, all democrats are stupid is getting very tired.
November 14th, 2005 at 4:00 pmThe way in which the detainees are being imprisoned and tortured first, only to then find out if they are indeed an enemy combatant, reminds me of the medieval practice of determining a witch. First tie rocks to her; if she floats,then she’s a witch, burn her, if she sinks, she is innocent,…….and dead. Advanced thinking?
November 14th, 2005 at 4:06 pmGiacomo,
I do know a few fairly level headed right leaning persons, some are even dear friends. None of them however condone these actions of torture or imprisonment without due process!
As for ‘less of a person’, I’m not the one who’s advocating taking peoples rights away, that’s you! You’re retarded for making that argument, but see unlike you, I believe that even a retarded american has rights!
November 14th, 2005 at 4:12 pmGiacomo,
The government structure is really set up to only support 2 parties of power. The rules of the congress always push minority parties into the 2. You’d need a parliamentary system to implement what you you say, it’s not practical for our government.
November 14th, 2005 at 4:14 pm“yet me as a non laywer clearly know more than you do!”
November 14th, 2005 at 5:15 pmdrivelet by RyANNe
**** My dear mother told me “everyone is good at something.” I was afraid you might prove her incorrect – but, ever the optimist, I kept searching. You’re good at ASSUMING evidence not in fact and sweeping pronouncements. Congratulations!!!
MightyHermaphrodite,
How funny, the only thing you’ve been good at is showing your ignorance. Your ‘persona’ shows a bad choice. Your ’skills’ as a lawyer clearly show you made the wrong career choice. I’ve interacted with attornies who attended night schools who were more skilled than you. Clearly you demonstrated why ‘military intelligence’ is an oxymoron.
We should start calling you MightyFraud
November 14th, 2005 at 5:45 pmAssume away, little girl. P.S. Knowing only ACLU attorneys doesn’t count. Whistle Dixie!
November 14th, 2005 at 5:50 pm“You might want to remind all of the stupid republican districts who want to trump separation of church and state with 10 commandments and creationism that their ‘local statutes’ don’t trump the constitution.†– “Comment†by RyANNe
November 14th, 2005 at 5:54 pm****As usual, your utter lack of understanding and/or comprehension of the First Amendment is telling…pitiful!!!
It does for Rush Limbaugh, without the ACLU clearly he’d be in prison. See that shows that you aren’t a lawyer, nor do you know anything about the legal system. The ACLU isn’t a ‘liberal’ organization, they’re an AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES organization. They fight for retarded fools like you and LimpDrugs.
Most of my legal friends laugh at inepts like you. You’re the backwash of the legal system, and you know it…
November 14th, 2005 at 5:54 pmMightyHermaphrodite,
Maybe you should go re-attend a night school for law that actually teaches law and not flipping flapjacks.
In Lemon vs. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971), the Supreme Court of the United States
The Court’s decision in this case established the “Lemon test”, which details the requirements for United States legislation concerning religion. It consists of three prongs:
1. The government’s action must have a legitimate secular purpose;
2. The government’s action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion; and
3. The government’s action must not result in an “excessive entanglement” of the government and religion.
If any of these three prongs is violated, the government’s action is deemed unconstitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.
November 14th, 2005 at 6:02 pmI don’t believe I ever advocated for taking anyone’s rights away, but rather that the rights in question are not, in fact, rights (as one can infer from the US Constitution). Those rights are for US citizens … should we extend, in decency and morality, the benefits those rights guarantee to enemy combatants … that’s not a simple black and white question that, I believe, you’re making it out to be. There are those incarcerated that should not be, to be sure, but that doesn’t mean the system is broken but failing. What of those that perfectly belong to be in Gitmo (I’m speaking of those that have a propsensity for lopping off journalist and business contractor’s heads) … do we offer them the benefits that your and my grandfathers and fathers (maybe siblings) died to provide for us, or does that somehow cheapen those rights … I can see the argument that to be a free society is to extend those rights to all, regardless of who they are, but I can also see a great opportunity for an abuse of the system.
November 14th, 2005 at 6:05 pmGiacomo,
Not true. Re-read my posts. Not only do non citizens have rights by the american legal system and constitution (albeit not 100% of the same ones), but also there are international laws and treaties signed about the rights of non citizens.
It is a simple black and white question. The government should NEVER have the right to keep someone without due process. Not only is that one of the FOUNDING principles of our democracy, but it was critical to our national identity. Under the english system, americans were rounded up for sedition and mistreated just like we’re doing at gitmo. Our founding fathers enshrined this into our constitution specifically to prevent whackos like George the Second from doing what we’re doing.
What ‘cheapens’ our rights, is when we discard them out of a momentary fear or xenophobia. Wake up and realize that in this case YOU are the bad guy!
November 14th, 2005 at 6:13 pmAnd Giacomo,
The SUPREME COURT recently upheld that the detainees DO have the right to a fair trial. This IS an american tradition and a constitutional one. The last time this right was ’suspended’ was the civil war.
This is COMPLETELY unamerican!
November 14th, 2005 at 6:16 pmFYI, the case was Rasul v. Bush, which held Guantanamo detainees have the right to challenge the legality of their detentions.
Otherwise what would prevent the government from just detaining foreigners or foreign politicians they didn’t like? This sort of draconian tactic is completely Hitler like, and without merit in a civil society.
This is an abomination and a fiasco!
November 14th, 2005 at 6:20 pmRyANNe – are you dyslexic or do progressives skip every third word so the “Red Code” isn’t breached? “Knowing only ACLU attorneys doesn’t count. Whistle Dixie!” I inferred no such thing about the ACLU – only that you should broaden your tiny scope I’m going to start referring to you as Sister Mary Assumption – because you are sooo good at that! Did one of your “friends” loan you their set of West Law?? Where did you buy your friends?
November 14th, 2005 at 6:24 pmCome on MightyHermaphrodite, no responses to me completely embarrassing you on your obvious ignorance of constitutional law. What do you practice, pet law?
Bahaha, You’re no attorney, you’re a whacko poser!
November 14th, 2005 at 6:32 pmWow, so now you’re back on the ‘commie kick’. You really should get treated for that case of commie paranoia. There’s only one commie state IN THE WORLD, and that’s north korea.
All you’re doing is demostrating that you’re bad at EVERYTHING, not just law…
As for ‘west law’, you really should read more instead of using it as a door stop. Clearly you’re a BAD lawyer, and a retarded fool… But then again, you’re a republican fascist zionist bigot, so that’s self evident isn’t it?
November 14th, 2005 at 6:34 pmAnd MightyHermaphrodite, I FIRE bad attornies, I don’t look at them in the mirror or marry them…
Quality control and cronyism has always been a problem with republicans though. That’s why you guys always fixate on ghosts, myths and bogeymen. You’re too afraid to face the facts of your own ineptitude.
It must really suck for you to argue with a successful CAPITALIST, who doesn’t have a degree in law but CLEARLY knows more law than you do. Not only are you a dull pencil, but you really should be kept in the case you’re so useless!
How many years did you stay home with the kids? You’re really out of practice on the whole law thing aren’t you?
November 14th, 2005 at 6:36 pmNow back to the LEGAL argument, something MightyMoron isn’t qualified to discuss.
The case was Rasul v. Bush, which held Guantanamo detainees have the right to challenge the legality of their detentions.
Otherwise what would prevent the government from just detaining foreigners or foreign politicians they didn’t like? This sort of draconian tactic is completely Hitler like, and without merit in a civil society.
This is an abomination and a fiasco!
November 14th, 2005 at 6:37 pmShouldn’t all people be entitled to the same rights and privileges as everyone else. Isn’t that the perfect world we’re striving for?
November 14th, 2005 at 6:42 pmJustin,
That’s the world you and I are striving for. The republican fascists believe in social darwinism (ironic considering they don’t believe in Darwin). In their world, the strong are therefore fit to rule by any means they see fit. In otherwords, they’re a ‘corporate’ version of victorian elitism, classism and aristocracy. They’re hateful selfish retarded fools in otherwords.
November 14th, 2005 at 6:49 pmRyANNe – I’ll have a legal discussion with you when you understand and admit how stupidly wrong you were in your proclamation that I would be tossed from JAG due my pregnancies. My practice has nothing to do with that “important” Civil Service function of tax auditing. Keep up the good work!
November 14th, 2005 at 7:52 pm****Justin – Wow!!!! Nice thought – when you convince terrorists not to attack innocents at wedding parties, or fly planes into buildings then we might be on our way to …. “all I want is….world peace.” Sweet- but, naive.
Maybe you should try treating people like actual people with motives and desires instead of mindles “must destroy america” bots. Removing underlying causes of terrorism instead of denying people their human rights is usually a more principled and often more effective option.
November 14th, 2005 at 8:32 pmMighty Aphrodite: One can imagine what you look like based on what you write: Teeth bared, fangs dripping with bile; a pockmarked face from years of deep, cystic acne, which to this day persists, scaring your face, your soul; halitosis that offends from ten feet away; body odor that couldn’t be cured even after a twenty-four our douching; morbid obesity; a balding scalp. And those are your good points. What a misguided, vile pig you are. You aren’t even worth pity. Quit boring people with your nonsensical blather.
November 14th, 2005 at 8:48 pm#77 – Elke, are you as sperficial as you appear??? Look in the mirror and tell yourself a “blonde joke”.
November 14th, 2005 at 8:55 pmMIGHTYFRAUD IS A MAN!
She’s just another fat stupid republican man pretending to be a woman – isn’t one of you (Ann Coulter) drag queens enough?
Get a life you freak!
November 14th, 2005 at 9:41 pmMightyFraud,
It depends on your age, or you probably didn’t know that as well. Clearly you’re a woman of substantial age, and that would indicate you are old enough to fall under the no pregnancy rule that used to exist.
Once again, checkmate you stupid poser!
You aren’t an attorney, I discredited your entire first amendment and cited the legal case. YOU ARE AN INEPT FRAUD!
November 14th, 2005 at 9:43 pm“My practice has nothing to do with that “important†Civil Service function of tax auditing. Keep up the good work!”MightyRetard
Tax Auditing? We were discussing the first amendment, and I cited legal doctrine, and you mention tax law? Wow, you’re even more stupid than I thought. The first amendment isn’t related to tax law you idiot.
Now which McDonalds training school did you get your law degree from? McNuttys?
November 14th, 2005 at 9:45 pm“Wow!!!! Nice thought – when you convince terrorists not to attack innocents at wedding parties, or fly planes into buildings then we might be on our way to …. “all I want is….world peace.†Sweet- but, naive.
Comment by mightyZiondite”
What’s ‘naive’ is your deluded belief that you can kill everyone who agrees with you, and thereby make you and your beloved israel safe. Not only is that sheer lunacy, it’s fully certifiable.
My people fought over ireland for the better half of 9 centuries. Not only can I tell you that you’re a fool, but worse. You’re a fool who refuses to learn from the lessons that others have already learned, which makes you a RETARDED fool.
In the end neither side brought peace through warfare, but through actually realizing that they wanted to create a circumstance where both parties could win. The English protestant settlers and the Irish Catholic folks finally created a circumstance where both parties could share the same land.
And ironically, all of those supposedly criminal terrorist irish not only laid down their weapons, but it’s now the English protestant soldiers who’ve turned out to be the more violent and less moral group. Based on your particular personality, I’d say it’s likely you’d find a lot of similar cases in Israel…
People who are foolish and ignorant like you are the children of Dickens. Hunger is dangerous, but ignorance is the true killer. You are ignorance, and you are the killer MightyHermaphrodite. People like are are the evil scourge of the world, whether they wear the beard of Osama, or the fat pants of an over weight republican man in drag. You are the evil that lurks in mankind! And you are the truly naive, and truly dangerous!
November 14th, 2005 at 10:26 pmFreudian slip, I meant to say “kill everyone who disagrees with you”, ironically your policies and beliefs are more likely to have the freudian outcome.
November 14th, 2005 at 10:26 pmI can’t vote Democratic anymore. It is just like voting Republican. I want a party that believes in our Constitution and law AND decency.
November 14th, 2005 at 11:17 pmSmall minded, small hearted, evil little people like Tomaig are the reason we are disliked worldwide and our nation is not what it could be. We can never live up to the promise of freedom granted by our predecessors if we refuse to see that the urge for freedom exists in others and deserves to be nurtured even if it is different from what we wish it to be.
November 15th, 2005 at 12:56 am“Small minded, small hearted, evil little people like Tomaig…”
For suggesting that not ALL captured-on-the-battlefield prisoners should be given the same access/ due process as American citizens I’m evil? More leftist BS – if someone doesn’t see the world through the same rose-colored tea-shades as you, they’re evil and small-hearted…
November 15th, 2005 at 7:30 amWhat wworld do you live in there boing? A college campus? Mommy’s basement?
That’s what the geneva conventions call for Tomaig. Not even Iran and North Korea share your opinion. How does it feel to be more rightwing than those places?
You’re clearly a whacko!
November 15th, 2005 at 6:14 pmTHOSE POOR LITTLE TERROISTS IN THEIR LITTLE ORANGE SUITS, I FEEL SO SORRY FOR THEM…
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