Richard Clarke Debunks “Same Intelligence” Myth
Richard Clarke Debunks “Same Intelligence” Myth
If anyone can say definitively whether Congress receives the “same intelligence” as the White House on the most sensitive national security issues, it is long-time U.S. intelligence czar Richard Clarke.
He set the record straight on the popular White House talking point last night on the Daily Show, pointing out that Bush officials had access to reams of raw prewar intelligence data that Congress never saw nor had the opportunity to verify:
What happened was that Congress got the finished intelligence that said these things. They didn’t see all the details. … They don’t get the raw information. They don’t get the [forged documents purportedly showing Iraq sought uranium in Africa]; they get the answer, you know — “the uranium going from…” — but they don’t get the information that it’s based on.
Full transcript below:
CLARKE: There’s all sorts of intelligence out there, and [Vice President Cheney] picked out the worst reports. So the Mohammed Atta report is from a drunk — literally. We know that. The report about getting uranium from Niger, from Africa, turns out to be a forged document. If you just looked at it, it was like crayons, you know?
STEWART: It was apparently written by an Italian guy in a hotel room.
CLARKE: Rocco.
STEWART: Rocco Martino or something like that.
CLARKE: Yeah, great name.
STEWART: By the way, big fan of the show. But it really does seem like they did what most administrations do: they picked the best things you could use to sell the thing they wanted to sell, and now that it turned out to be kind of a gag gift, if you will, they’re starting to go back and say, “Hey, but you bought it, too.”
CLARKE: Yeah, but people didn’t buy it. What happened was that Congress got the finished intelligence that said these things. They didn’t see all the details–
STEWART: So the idea that they get the same intelligence–
CLARKE: They don’t get the raw information. They don’t get the cartoon from Rocco. They get the answer, you know — “the uranium going from…” — but they don’t get the information that it’s based on. And when the president says, “Everybody agreed there were weapons of mass destruction.” Sure, that wasn’t the question. The question was, so what?
STEWART: Is he an imminent threat and are we in danger?
CLARKE: He had weapons of mass destruction for 20 years. He didn’t even use weapons of mass destruction on the U.S. Army when the U.S. Army in 1991 was driving up his highway.
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Yea, Colin Powell said the same thing over at Huffington Post's blog.
November 18th, 2005 at 12:24 pmClarke, of course, is right.
I see that the ReichWingNutWackJobs have someone else to try and pummel. Yesterday it was Murtha speaking truth to power. Today, it's Richard Clarke.
Oh, and I loved it this morning to see on the front page of the local newspaper that critics of Dems and others who would "rewrite history" are themselves wrong.
November 18th, 2005 at 12:33 pmi remember vividly watching richard clarke's testimony before congress, live on cnni, while i was in macedonia... the hair on the back of my neck stood up, chills ran up and down my spine, and, several times, i had tears in my eyes... such was the impact of, finally, hearing truth being spoken... i well knew what kind of risk the man was taking with one of the most vicious attack machines in history ensconced in the white house ready to pounce... i am glad to see him back in the public eye... he's one of my heroes and my respect for him is enormous... how ironic that the latest info he has to share comes via the daily show...
http://takeitpersonally.blogspot.com/2005/11/oh-and-btw-clarke-says-congress-didnt.html
November 18th, 2005 at 12:40 pmBLIND FAITH!
November 18th, 2005 at 12:46 pmCan the "BLIND LEAD THE BLIND"?
DONT PUT YOUR TRUST IN MAD FAITH DISEASE,
CALLED" BINDMADNESS,MONEYMADNESS,FREEDOMMADNESS"!
MANY NAMES.
More evidence that the word "intelligence" should never appear in the same sentence with "the Bush White House"...
Of course, they'll just trot out the same old tired attack dog crap they tried to use on Clarke when he resigned (was fired?); as I recall, Mr. Clarke came out the winner that time, too.
November 18th, 2005 at 12:53 pmWith great interviews like this one, Jon Stewart is going to have a harder time convincing people that TDS is a "fake" news show!
That last comment from Clarke, about why Saddam didn't use WMD against us in 1991, does make one pause to think, doesn't it?
November 18th, 2005 at 12:57 pmPlease put all video clips in WMP format as well as your chosen Quicktime format.
Quicktime does not run on my system.
Please help all your readers use WMP.
November 18th, 2005 at 12:57 pmCOMEDY CENTRAL????????
November 18th, 2005 at 1:07 pmWHAT IS THIS?
THATS NOT NEWS, THATS COMEDY, I DONT SEE THE HUMOUR IN IT!
#6- Actually it is pretty easy to see that TDS is a fake news show- they debunk talking points, whereas the "real" news shows merely repeat them.
November 18th, 2005 at 1:09 pmAnother reason Colbert is kicking Stewarts ass. TDS has gone tin-foil-cap on us and thrown their audience in front of the humor bus.....I had tears in my eyes watching Colbert but it was from laughing....
November 18th, 2005 at 1:21 pmThe truth feels so good. I am glad the true patriots are starting to stand up and say they were given false information, which caused them to vote to give Bush the power to wage war after all other avenues had been tried. Those other options were not used and Iraq was attacked.
That is the issue. Bad intellegence was used to get the Congress to vote in favor of Bush.
The Senate did not have access to the same information that the White House saw.
It makes me happy that these people went and had spine implants.
November 18th, 2005 at 1:22 pmReality is funnier than fiction...if you don't laugh at this administration, you have either left the country, are heavily sedated, on the brink of mental collapse, or alredy taken to one of the torture sights throughout the world
November 18th, 2005 at 1:25 pmUhhhhh, was there ever any doubt that the White House withheld information from Congress? Like this administration has ever had anything but a reputation for lying, secrecy, corruption. The White House doesn't understand that by now, people assume first that they are engaged in malfeasance. The days of giving Bushie the benefit of the doubt are gone.
November 18th, 2005 at 1:30 pmWhat is Turk watching? Colbert is on the same page as Stewart. Colbert's humor is just slightly more high brow. ...unless Turk is not fully understanding what he is watching.
November 18th, 2005 at 1:32 pm#8
The Daily Show may be a comedy show, but it makes fun not only the politicians, but also the media and the fact that they're too brain dead to pick up on any
deviant and nefarious statements that they tend to blurt out.
TDS like the Colbert Report, makes fun of the same thing and pundits who tend to express opinions on
political and social issues without even being there on the scene. While the pundits sit on their asses, eating ho-ho's, twinkies and felafels, Hurricanes, political stupidity, lack of faith or respect for the
average American Citizen is killing the spirit and integrity of this country.
TDS and TCR give us an hour of comfort to let us know that we, on this blog, (except for the trolls like Mighty Windbag, NED,ETC) that we were correct.
Even MSNBC'S Countdown, while not a comedy show, mocks the stupidity of some Americans as well as provide another side of the news that you won't find on Fox News. And Keith Olbermann is friendlier.
That's why, I would rather watch Comedy Central and Countdown than to accept anything that Diane Sawyer or Chris Matthews tells me.
November 18th, 2005 at 1:32 pmNow this is funny! Richard Clarke being taken seriously! Bwahahahaha!
November 18th, 2005 at 1:36 pmOh boy, dufuss showed up.
November 18th, 2005 at 1:39 pmNice to see you too, Spudge!
November 18th, 2005 at 1:45 pmOne possible reason he didn't use them in the first gulf war is because we bombed Iraq for 40 or so days prior to the ground offensive (remember the whole shock and awe thing). The Iraqi army was too badly beaten up to even muster a defense/counter-offense by the time we were driving "up his highway".
November 18th, 2005 at 1:46 pmNow this is funny! Richard Clarke being taken seriously! Bwahahahaha!
Comment by cynicon implant — November 18, 2005 @ 1:36 pm
I would like to know who has credibility in your opinion.
November 18th, 2005 at 1:46 pmHow did you know I was talking about you. Are you used to being called dufuss? First time I have ever posted that word.
November 18th, 2005 at 1:47 pmI just don't get how people can defend this crew? I mean is it just ignorance, stubborness, plugging of the ears going lalalalalala? One thing after another surfaces almost daily now about the entrneched corruption of this administration as well as the Repub controlled House and these wingnuts still defend them?
What a bunch of pathetic maroons!
November 18th, 2005 at 1:48 pmThe Iraqi army was too badly beaten up to even muster a defense/counter-offense by the time we were driving “up his highwayâ€.
Comment by Giacomo (aka GeoMetro) — November 18, 2005 @ 1:46 pm
Giacomo,
that might be true --but you are missing the point. What Clarke is trying to say is that, if Hussein did not use his WMDs when he obviously had them, there was no reason to believe that he was an "urgent danger" years later, after the sanctions had taken their toll and the inspections were underway.
November 18th, 2005 at 1:49 pmThe Iraqi army was too badly beaten up to even muster a defense/counter-offense by the time we were driving "up his highway".
Comment by Giacomo (aka GeoMetro) — November 18, 2005 @1:46 pm
Giacomo,
that might be true --but you are missing the point. What Clarke is trying to say is that, if Hussein did not use his WMDs when he obviously had them, there was no reason to believe that he was an "urgent danger" years later, after the sanctions had taken their toll and the inspections were underway.
November 18th, 2005 at 1:50 pm#20 - remember you are responding to someone who, try not to laugh, thinks Chimp is a great leader.
November 18th, 2005 at 1:50 pmJimbo, I'm with you. Jon, Stephen Colbert, and Keith put the 'real' talking heads to shame.
#16, let me guess, you're a fan of Faux News and Bill "go ahead and attack San Francisco" O'Reilly? No wonder you're so ignorant.
November 18th, 2005 at 1:50 pm#19
"(remember the whole shock and awe thing)"
Once again, you are wrong.
"Shock and awe" is a term that was coined for this Iraq war. The term "shock and awe" was never used for the first Iraq war. You know Desert Strom, which started as Desert Shield? I know, I was there. Were you born yet?
November 18th, 2005 at 1:51 pmI'm confused. Where is the troll abortion commentary?
November 18th, 2005 at 1:54 pmNotice how no one on Shrub's side has shown or proven that Congress had the same information? All Bush has to say is that we looked at x number of pieces of paper, and Congress looked at the EXACT same number.
This will never happen. Therefore, once again, it's just a lie. No more, no less.
November 18th, 2005 at 1:59 pmBLINDED BY FAITH!
November 18th, 2005 at 1:59 pmCan the “BLIND LEAD THE BLIND�
DONT PUT YOUR TRUST IN THE “MAD FAITH DISEASEâ€.
CALLED†BINDMADNESS,MONEYMADNESS,FREEDOMMADNESSâ€!
MANY NAMES.
When was I wrong the first time? I was trying to make the point that we pulverized the s*&t out of them.
Despite the many reasons Bush gave for invading Iraq (WMDs, heinous dictator, etc.) one thing that is often overlooked is that a democratic Iraq makes the other nations in that region feel much less "froggy", if you will. Remember how bad the Palestinian/Israeli thing was a few years ago? We also were having a huge pissing contest with N. Korea a few years back which has since deflated since our Iraq invasion. Iraq's not going super well (although it may be going better than we can see) ... I agree, but I think our willingness to back up what we said has made other countries a little less likely to step up to the psycho dictator shoot off at the mouth plate.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:03 pm#25 -- I never said I thought Bush is a great leader. But he's more of a leader than Clinton ever was.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:03 pmW comes closest to the title "leader" when he is drinking a liter.........(of gin).
November 18th, 2005 at 2:11 pm#31
I mean in general, you are wrong.
"Remember how bad the Palestinian/Israeli thing was a few years ago?"
No, I don't. Because it is still going on right now. It is still just as bad. Who cares if they are opening a border. They are still killing each other left and right.
"We also were having a huge pissing contest with N. Korea a few years back which has since deflated..."
No it hasn't Kim Jung II just told the US to pretty much screw ourselves. He is feeling impowered by the fact that we can't even take Iraq out. Why can't we take Iraq out? Is it because people critize Bush? Nope, It is because we didn't send enough troops to do the job the right way. Leaving our service men vunerable.
Desert Storm was done the right way. We sent too many troops. We had a show of force that made people shake in their boots. We would drive by Iraqis that had their weapons stacked up ready to surrender. We didn't do that in Operation Iraqi Freedom. We sent a small force that was ill-equipped to do the job. That is what happens when a non-military person and his non-military buddies start a war. They have no idea how to go about having a war.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:12 pm#22
November 18th, 2005 at 2:13 pmHere's your answer:
This Modern World: Stupid or lying?
http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=19887
SiliconeBoob is showing why the we hate Clinton club contains nothing but failures. They 'claim' Bush is a worse president, but Clinton's approval rating at this stage of the game nearly laps Bush's. So the american people disagree with this hysterical and ammusingly stupid statement...
And Boob, 41% of the military jobs are currently unfilled. Why aren't you in Iraq?
November 18th, 2005 at 2:15 pmSo ... the guy battles drug and alcohol dependence, beats them, and you find that humorous how? To not agree with his politics and policy is one thing ... to make a joke about substance abuse when the guy has been honest about his past struggles with said substances is beyond a low blow.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:16 pmGregor,
That was a brilliant piece of logic, but republicans only operate from their fears, their bigotry or their preconceptions. They don't possess or prove unwilling to use the part of the brain required for critical thinking.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:17 pmRyan, I'm not in Iraq because I'm too busy trying to keep the poor down over here.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:17 pmSpudge
The Palestinian/Israeli thing is not a third as bad as it was ... look back, there were bombings daily. We have the Israelis backing out of Palestinian demanded areas and Palestinian leadership openly decrying the nutjob in Iran's statements about wiping Israel off the map.
Kim Jung Il has relented a great deal (thanks to China mostly, but at our behest) ... he was shooting his mouth of daily as well. When was the last time we heard from him? He agreed, tenuously, to not continue his nuclear weapons program (something he wasn't even close to stating 2 years ago). Whether or not he does, we shall see.
I pretty much agree with you last paragraph ... too little, too slowly.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:20 pmIt's so sad that our government (Administration on down to the greenest Congressman) is full of weak leaders. The fact that 2000+ of our best men and women have died for what can be deemed -among many other things- as a complete lack of planning is disgusting.
It's worth noting that Clinton and Congress passed this resolution: "Iraq Liberation Act of 1998" Go to http://thomas.loc.gov and look it up. Seems like we had plenty of time to put ANY plan in place. I wonder if Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz (& Congress too) put any thought into what would happen once Saddam fell?
November 18th, 2005 at 2:22 pmOh NO! Now the reichtwingnuts are gonna use the dreaded Bait and Switch techinque on us!!!! Oh woe is me. We are powerless and at their mercy.
Dumbshits. It would be one thing if what you said about Clinton was true, but it isn't. Look at
November 18th, 2005 at 2:26 pm1) polls reguarding presidential approval rating
2) the economy stupid!
3) # of dumb ass wars they dragged the US into.
I've been thinking about these trolls a bit and the only excuse I can come up with for why they are so blindly accepting of an administration that does nothing for their well being and so transparently evil is that they are just plants,
I have talked to plenty of conservatives and they don't even see a reason to stick up for this administration (though they did in the past)...
GWB does not have a conservitive agenda, or a right wing agenda, just a personal one, where the only ones to benefit are him and his cronies
so the troll plants must be part of the pack of cronies, maybe co-ops at the caryle group, or the young children of relatives (judging by their remarks, I'd say about 13) or other behind the scences types...
this does not include NED, we all know what he looks like and what fuels his spirit (if you haven't seen his profile, I'll save you a trip: booze & porn)
November 18th, 2005 at 2:26 pm#40
I will give a little. Things have quieted down in regards to Isreal/Palestine and in North Korea, but I don't think those problems will go away anytime soon.
As far as Kim Jong Il is concerned, we just heard form him the other day. The US said that Kim Jong Il agreed to start dismantling his nukes, but Kim Jong Il said that he agreed only once we gave an okay for a light water nuclear reactor. He contests that we are holding things up, so he IS NOT dismantling his nules. That would be telling us to go screw ourselves.
Glad we can agreed on the Iraq situation. I am of the stance that we need to either 1) send in a shit load of troops and make the insurgency go away or 2) get the hell out. There is no reason to do something, especailly go to war, unless you are going to do it right.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:34 pmChris, the reason you (and others here) can't understand why we think the way we do is you NEVER ASK. I have been genuinely asked what or why I think something no more than a few times. The rest of the time it is just insults and assumptions about me/us. For example, I don't think Bush is all that wonderful and I am not sure that the war was the right thing to do but I do think that now that we are there we need to finish the job. So when he makes that argument I am with him. When he signs a $200 billion spending bill I am against him. Does that help?
November 18th, 2005 at 2:34 pmOf course Congress didn't see the same intelligence the Administration did. The Intelligence Agencies all work for the Administration, not congress and the President is the only one who gets the daily briefing. As Clarke stated, congress gets a different version presented to them. Besides, Congress wasn't the ones who sent our soldiers to war. Only the President has that authority under the Constitution, that's why he's Commander In Chief. Congress can only declare War, the President is the one who ultimately desides whether or not to commit troops.
Can anyone tell me the last time Congress sent troops to fight in a war. Right, never because they don't have that power. Why is the Administration even involved in a debate about what Democrats may or may not have said. Not one Democrat including John Kerry had or has the power to commit troops. If they had the power, we wouldn't be in this war. Congressman Murther wants to bring the troops home, but he doesn't have the authority to. Why? Because only the Command in Chief can.
The argument about, "They did it too" doesn't hold water and I can tell you why. If a Police Officer stops you for speeding and you say, 'They were speeding too', he's not going to say, 'OK I won't give you a ticket thin'. That's because it doesn't matter what "They" were doing, you got caught. The next time a copy stops me I'm going to say, "they were speeding too" and see how far I get with the Judge. So all of you stupid Republicans can stop crying "They" anytime you get ready to.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:37 pmGiacomo,
North Korea had already relented under Clinton and had placed all of their nuclear plants under IAEA. It was the republican congress who by refusing to comply with the terms undermined that deal. Clinton had us in a BETTER position with NK, than we are now.
As for the israeli situation, it's still quite fragile, to the point that the israeli government appears to be on the brink of collapse itself. It's too early to determine if we have a lull between storms or its cessation. And mind you the protocols that are being put in place were in fact negotiated BECAUSE of Clinton and his pressure on both sides.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:37 pmSiliconeBoob,
You share the same talking points that every other whacko republican does, we already know what you 'believe' by your radical and hysterical postings. But based on those postings, we also know that you don't THINK, and that's the whole problem.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:38 pmRepublicans only come in a handful of varieties.
Cheap
Greedy
Selfish
Bigoted
Fearful
Mix and match, and you have the classic republican troll.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:39 pmSpudge ... I agree. We have the troops and the technology ... go clean house and get out ...
November 18th, 2005 at 2:42 pmWe wouldn't be there if he didn't put us there, that's my argument...and splitting now would be as inhumane as uh (cough) authorizing or lobbying for torture...but a war to go to Iraq to get their oil, as opposed to our safety, their well being, or the war on terror would have been fought diferently...this was a war for Oil and that is how we have treated and prioritized our missions there, if we give up our greedy strong hold on their oil and fight the real war there, we'll win, but we can't do both!!!
November 18th, 2005 at 2:44 pmRyan
North Korea would have turned sour if Gore/Kerry were our presidents. Kim Il is a tyrant and doesn't want the IAEA inspecting regardless of who's in office.
Israel/Palestine is tenuous at best, I agree. I do think Bush (as well as Clinton, but to a lesser extent) should get some credit for working the "roadmap" that's been implemented.
Based on your 49 post, I've been know to fall under the "selfish" category ... none of the others apply.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:46 pmcyniCON...I have seen too many of your posts after good, honest, non-evil things were said, and they were no where close to as resonable as your original response (45)...
November 18th, 2005 at 2:48 pmI love, I love, I love John Stewart. Call me gay, but the guy is just funny as hell.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:48 pmgiACOMA
"North Korea would have turned sour if Gore/Kerry were our presidents."
Why... because they traveled outside the US before being president and have relations with other countries to know how to best aproach a problem, as opposed to the "Going it Alone" or the "With me or Against Me" philospiphy we got st(f)uck(ed) with
November 18th, 2005 at 2:50 pmSo we agree that cutting and running is not the answer.
But I disagree that this was a war "to get their oil" -- if it was, I think we'd have a lot more of it now than we do.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:51 pmChris ... if this war is over oil than it's more of a failure than even the most left leaning person is saying.
While I don't believe the war was over oil, I do think that the oil prices are directly being manipulated by our government (and by both political parties) to force Americans into other technologies (I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist). Would most of us buy a hybrid if gas was 1.05 a gallon. If we tried to adapt any new technology too quickly, our economy could suffer (expense of getting new vehicles, loss of profit for big oil and its integrated subsidiaries/partners). But, if you want to move people without them thinking you're moving them, raise oil prices ... the trickle into hybrids slowly becomes a downpour (this also explains why Repubs avoided the ANWR drilling, but in a sneaky way). No one know the better.
Maybe that's a HUGE reach.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:53 pmThe rest of the time it is just insults and assumptions about me/us.
Comment by cynicon implant — November 18, 2005 @ 2:34 pm
I can agree not to trade insults with you.
For example, I don’t think Bush is all that wonderful and I am not sure that the war was the right thing to do but I do think that now that we are there we need to finish the job.
Comment by cynicon implant — November 18, 2005 @ 2:34 pm
We know now that the war was launched on a pack of misrepresentations, distortions, misinformation, and propaganda. But what I hear a lot from the opposing side is that anyone who mentions it is a traitor, despicable, and worse things for not following the Great (mis)Leader. Don't you mind being misled?
Finish the job? What would that be exactly? Until Iraq is a shiny example of democracy? Democracy cannot be exported at gun point or with bombs. C'mon... do you really believe that? And the same excuse was used to stay in Vietnam (yes, I am dragging that one out), and it only prolonged the conflict and increased the death toll on both sides.
We now know the war was "sold" --to finish the job to me would be to apologise for the mess, leave as soon as possible, and let the Iraqis decide their own destiny.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:54 pmI think N. Korea went south b/c Kim Il is a nutjob, not because of US policy or savvy.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:54 pmcyniCOM
WE? HAAAHAHAHA
THEY!!!
did you hear about thier profits, they do have it...and that's why we are paying mor, when there was an even playing field, it was hard for them to exploit us, but know they can do what they want (and probably planned it with Cheney during those secret energy meetins)
November 18th, 2005 at 2:54 pmEver heard of cornering the market Silicone B? Record profits?
November 18th, 2005 at 2:57 pmGiacomo,
I disagree. The reasons NK violated the treaty were their fear of american naked aggression, and the fact that republicans halted fuel shipments. Both of these reasons are direct republican reasons. The republicans once again screwed up foreign policy as they always do.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:57 pmgiACOMA
it's a theory...but I'm still gonna stick with GREED
November 18th, 2005 at 2:57 pmCould be greed to ... I freakin hope not.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:58 pm#54 -- Chris, I will plead guilty to sometimes shooting back. Hard to keep to the high road when the snipers are out in full force.
My point is: if folks here are really interested in what I/we believe, calling us stupid (or worse) is probably not the best way to get that information. My suspicion is that most here don't really care what we think, or why. But I'm willing to be proven wrong.
November 18th, 2005 at 2:59 pm"cornering the market" = MONOPOLY (it's not just a game)
November 18th, 2005 at 3:00 pmSiliconeBoob,
You're an idiot. If we can't put in the 750k in troops to secure Iraq, it's nonsense to be there. And now that we've screwed up the situation so poorly, it's likely we can never secure the country. We've created a modern day northern ireland, palestine where a country had once been.
Leaving the country is the only option viable, just like England had to withdraw from NI, and Israel is having to do with at least parts of Palestine.
November 18th, 2005 at 3:00 pmSiliconeBoob,
It's because what you believe IS stupid. Grow up and learn to take the criticism you and your party always dish out. The difference is your side is almost always wrong about everything, including your criticisms!
Frankly, I call you stupid because it's clear you ARE stupid.
November 18th, 2005 at 3:01 pmThe PNAC documents already show the reasons we're in iraq has NOTHING to do with terrorism and everything to do with oil interests wanting to secure oil.
Cheney is a signatory on the document.
This isn't rocket science, it's simple fact. Everything else is a whitehouse crime to perpetrate these actions of international thievery.
November 18th, 2005 at 3:03 pmWhen you blindly argue with us and stick up for a evil, hurtful, and piss-poor administration you will not be listened to...when you refute facts with talking points, you will not be taken seriously... if you want to be taken seriously, act seriously, then we may have some meaningful, bi-partisan (shall I say "progressive") discussions...until then...I CANT WAIT UNTIL 06 TO GET THE CROOKS OUT OF OFFICE AND AMERICA ON THE RIGHT TRACK!!!
November 18th, 2005 at 3:03 pmMy suspicion is that most here don’t really care what we think, or why. But I’m willing to be proven wrong.
Comment by cynicon implant — November 18, 2005 @ 2:59 pm
I actually do, I confess. I am curious. Where do you get the information you post? Is it from FoxNews? The Weekly Standard? I am sorry, but sometimes it sounds so disconnected from what I see and read on the web.
November 18th, 2005 at 3:07 pmA better question is why would SiliconeBoob come to a 'liberal' website and expect us to ask him what his opinions are? Hey Boob, had you ever considered that you are a 'guest' here, and that it might be polite for YOU to ask POLITE questions and learn something here? Had it ever occurred to you that maybe you don't want to learn, but because in your ignorance you clearly feel you have the 'superior' answers, you really just want to come here and preach?
See we already KNOW what you, your answers and your ideas are, they're plastered all over the news you retarded gimp. You however clearly don't know squat about the other side, yet you're full of retarded assumptions.
Like most republicans you come and act like a rude ass, and claim others are being rude. This imperialistic attitude is EXACTLY what many arrogant and stupid americans do when they're abroad, and why americans abroad are often sneared at. It's because you're a jackass!
November 18th, 2005 at 3:09 pm[...] Former Intelligence Czar Richard Clarke, during last night’s Daily Show appearance, debunks the current Republican talking point that Democrats in the Senate and across the political spectrum had access to the same intelligence that the Administration did. This, in collaboration with the talking point/denial about how the Administration didn’t lie or cook the intelligence, has been gaining quite a bit of momentum the past week and I don’t see anybody doing a really good job of shooting it down in the media. [...]
November 18th, 2005 at 3:10 pmGregor, I read the Boston Globe and National Review online daily. I read the Weekly Standard in print. A few other websites like Powerline I cruise by occasionally.
I originally came to this site to try and get the 'other side' -- but now I think I would do better to go to your sources. What do you read?
November 18th, 2005 at 3:18 pmRyan
I don't know who (or what) cynicon implant is ... but, in general there's been a lot of venom spewed my direction when I "ask(ed) POLITE questions (to) learn something here". If cynicon implant acts like a douche bag, his loss ... I've tried to be extremely civil and state my take on things and have been labelled and libeled in return.
Gregor has been thoughtful and fair ... but he/she (sorry) has been the exception. I know this is a left leaning site ... that's why I'm here. Not to troll (a troll just posts BS blather with no thought whatsoever behind it) but to encircle myself with those that don't think like me ... maybe cynicon implant is trying the same.
November 18th, 2005 at 3:19 pmWell said Giacomo (except for the 'or what' crack!)
Gregor is not the only civil one here -- let's return to civil exchange, shall we?
November 18th, 2005 at 3:25 pmA question for the ages: How does one get through to a cementhead? You have all been terminally poisoned by right wing propaganda, civil discusion is futile.
November 18th, 2005 at 3:30 pmI said "what" cause your name sounds vaguely bionic ... maybe I'm slow on the uptake, but what's a cynicon (cynical conservative?)? And why are you an implant and not just a "plant" ... implant makes it sound subdermal.
Sorry, maybe I'll shut-up and leave your name alone.
November 18th, 2005 at 3:33 pmLefty
There are "cementheads" of all persuasions.
November 18th, 2005 at 3:34 pmGiacomo -- I am truly a CYNIcal CONservative. Cynical about the whole political scene but generally conservative in thought. The 'implant' part just refers to implanting myself into this very unconservative site. Thought it would also provide a humorous visual image.
BTW, I thought the 'or what' was funny.
November 18th, 2005 at 3:42 pmLefty, I am open to 'real' sources of information that refute my position. Too often the links posted in rebuttal of my posts are left wing sites that provide opinion without facts, like truthout.org
November 18th, 2005 at 3:51 pmSiliconeBoob,
When you have any 'real sources' that back up your position, then you'll be in a more credible position. I've debunked you more time than a paris hilton video. You're stupid because you don't know anything, you're retarded because you still think you do!
November 18th, 2005 at 3:53 pmSiliconeBoob,
Truthout is a clearing house, they put the 'original source' of the document, but retain a copy for easy viewing. Unless you're a lazy retard, you can go find the original and prove it to yourself they're the same. But since you're a republican, clearly you don't understand what source material actually is.
November 18th, 2005 at 3:54 pmGiacomo,
It's because while you think you're trying to be 'fair', all you do is repost the same debunked talking points that have already been debunked. Frankly having to deal with you guys reposting the same slime daily leaves me with no patience for any of you anymore.
You don't learn. You act arrogant and irresponsibly. And it's clear that your ignorance is beyond assistance.
November 18th, 2005 at 3:57 pmSo ... conservatives need to learn. I'll agree. As for debunking something, an opposite opinion debunks nothing ...
I neither act arrogant nor irresponsible ... telling someone that they're the only ones who need to "learn" and then accusing them of arrogance takes some serious moxie.
November 18th, 2005 at 4:01 pmWhat is with my browser today? My posts vanish in cyberspace... This is really irritating...
November 18th, 2005 at 4:08 pmRYAN,I don't know where you get the energy or patience to respond to he unending right wing drivel. You deserve a medal.
November 18th, 2005 at 4:09 pmGiacomo,
I agree, that's why I use math, and you use anecdotal conjecture to form your ill conceived preconceptions.
The 10 States that did not have electronic voting machines all matched exit poll results within 3% of the final results.
Those states that used the new machines (there are now 40 of them that have at least partial deployment) saw as high as a 14% variation from the exit polls. Anything above 3% is considered fraud by international vote monitoring standards used by the UN and our own Pentagon.
There was a bigger discrepency in Ohio, than there was in the Ukraine.
Sorry, but at this point voter fraud is definitely a cornered republican problem.
November 18th, 2005 at 4:18 pmGiacomo,
I post facts, reference links and debunking daily. You come littered with anecdotal preconceptions and opinions. Grow up.
November 18th, 2005 at 4:19 pmLefty
Talking to someone that doesn't agree with you either makes your argument stronger and more articulate (for having to defend it intelligently) or makes you change your argument. Either way, you win.
Ryan responds often ... half the time it's an actual response and the other half it's of the "your a fascist" variety. Being 100% certain of what you think means you've been exposed to very little (unless you're God (I'm not sure if he posts here)). Being unable to deal with ambiguity is evidence of a lack of couth.
November 18th, 2005 at 4:19 pmGregor,
If you post what's recognized as copyrighted material, they'll sometimes remove it. Make sure you cite the reference link to prevent that from happening.
November 18th, 2005 at 4:21 pmGiacomo,
Confusing ignorance for a lack of or ambiguity of evidence is the clear mark of a fool.
I speak out on topics I understand and have researched, you should try it sometime. You won't look like such an ignorant fool.
Republicans often make the mistake you do, it's ok, I've seen it before. You can't help it, clearly you're not experienced enough yet to recognize what competence is - being a republican.
November 18th, 2005 at 4:23 pmRyan,
No, I never plagiarise --I think it's something in my privacy settings. I was tinkering with them yesterday.
November 18th, 2005 at 4:25 pmThe inability to distinguish ambiguity is a sure sign of insanity.
See Giacomo, I not only know the 'reference' and 'importance' of recognizing ambiguity, I know what it means. The difference between you and I, is that I can usually tell when ambiguous or incomplete information seems relevant to a conclusion. It's called being in possession of cognitive reasoning. You should try it sometime.
November 18th, 2005 at 4:26 pmGregor,
I've seen it not post items before, it may just be a glitch on their server.
November 18th, 2005 at 4:26 pmGiacomo, so you are here to win. If you had any couth you would be questioning the actions of torture,rape,decreased civil liberties,murder of civilians,illegal war etc., etc. perpetrated by the Bush admin.You would not be here undermining the qestioners of these antisocial behaviors of the right. You are misguded in your search to win and be right. Couth? ,you have to be kidding.
November 18th, 2005 at 4:32 pmI wasn't quoting ... or else I would've cited.
I'm not able to follow your flow of thought ... the statement that "I can usually tell when ambiguous or incomplete information seems relevant to a conclusion" ... is precisely the problem.
When ambiguity exists, there is an absence of clear relevance to a conclusion ... that's why it's ambiguous. "Cognitive reasoning" often causes one to invent relevance and thus one is further ingrained and trapped into the currently held mantra. You cite facts (well, you post facts, they aren't cited) and you give flippant responses to concepts/issues that are complex.
November 18th, 2005 at 4:41 pmLefty
That would be an attack ad hominem ... we aren't talking about those points and assuming what I think is bad form. I am not here to win nor do I wish to undermine. If you don't wish to substantiate what you think, then don't ...
I appreciate Ryan (although his attacks annoy me sometimes) because he'll stick up for what he feels is the truth. I don't think he's repsonding just to argue ... he responds because he feels strongly about what he's learned and thinks I'm misguided. I happen to disagree with him. That's as American as it gets.
If you're worried about being undermined, then you haven't thought enough about what you're arguing.
November 18th, 2005 at 4:48 pm#81
"Lefty, I am open to ‘real’ sources of information that refute my position. Too often the links posted in rebuttal of my posts are left wing sites that provide opinion without facts, like truthout.org"
See, this is why we attack you guys. I have yet to see someone use TruthOut.org as a "Source." See, because we here use trnascript of speeches and video as sources. If you don't want to wake up to that, then you will never see our side. If you don't want to see our side, then you will be attacked for your close mindedness.
November 18th, 2005 at 5:01 pm"because he’ll stick up for what he feels is the truth. "GeoMetro
You 'feel' the truth, I research it. It's why you're retarded.
November 18th, 2005 at 5:02 pmGiacomo,
The reason why I respond with serious posts to you and Cynicon is because --as much as I disagree with you both-- your posts make sense.
I have very socially conservative close friends and family members who are very dear to me. They won't put up with a liar, or someone who deceived them.
It is beyond me why, even after the evidence is pointing to the inevitable conclusion that someone in this administration lied, and distorted, people would still come out and defend it. Mind you, this was not a lie about a peccadillo, and is no small thing either. People are being tortured, dying, hid in secret prisons, in an OCCUPIED country, and it is all talked about as being ok... c'mon, this is -literally- the break down of civilisation as we know it.
Why are people coming up with apologies and excuses for inexcusable behaviour? I agree that you have decided you want to be a conservative, but aren't these things against what you believe is right?
I am writing out of frustration...
November 18th, 2005 at 5:04 pmHere is a good example of why nobody here cares what conservatives have to say.
First conservative post in this thread:
"Another reason Colbert is kicking Stewarts ass. TDS has gone tin-foil-cap on us and thrown their audience in front of the humor bus…..I had tears in my eyes watching Colbert but it was from laughing…."
Not sure what this has to do with Wesley Clarke stating the fact that the Senate did not get to see the same evidence as the White House.
Here is cynicon implant's first post:
"Now this is funny! Richard Clarke being taken seriously! Bwahahahaha!
Comment by cynicon implant — November 18, 2005 @ 1:36 pm"
Wesley Clarke used to work for George W. Bush. At what point did the conservatives turn on Wesley Clarke? When he stated that Iraq was not planned well?
You guys won't ever be taken seriously, unless you can post something that is 1) on topic, 2) has some validity, relevence or explanation.
November 18th, 2005 at 5:13 pm#101
"The reason why I respond with serious posts to you and Cynicon is because –as much as I disagree with you both– your posts make sense."
Tell me how cynicon implant's first post makes sense.
Here it is again:
“Now this is funny! Richard Clarke being taken seriously! Bwahahahaha!
Comment by cynicon implant — November 18, 2005 @ 1:36 pmâ€
November 18th, 2005 at 5:14 pmTell me how cynicon implant’s first post makes sense.
Comment by SpudgeBoy — November 18, 2005 @ 5:14 pm
Touché... I didn't have that particular post in mind.
And that reminds me... Cynicon: I would still like to know who, in your opinion, has credibility.
November 18th, 2005 at 5:58 pmThat's all I am saying. If the conservatives want us to take them seriously, they should post with some substance.
I don't mind a good debate. Giacomo and I did that in this very thread and came to an agreement. I think we should all talk more.
If some of the conservatives want to debate, I am all for that. Just don't be a troll.
Shoot, even NeD and I had a debate once and came to an agreement.
November 18th, 2005 at 6:07 pmSpudge,
I am in total agreement. What I was trying to say is that I can tell the difference between someone like Giacomo who is trying to have a dialogue, and someone like I-RIGHT-I who only comes here to let their innermost demons out. And pretty, it ain't. Mighty Aphrodite also lets her hair loose here and, well, it is not exactly a lovely sight.
November 18th, 2005 at 6:18 pmGregor,
Many of the trolls start out like Giacomo, but frankly they degrade quickly into the standard fare retard - at least that's been my experience. And the main reason is that they don't actually come here to learn, they can do that by reading silently. They come to preach, harrass and generally make asses out of themselves.
November 18th, 2005 at 6:20 pmPeople who know the facts, say the same thing, like Powell, Clarke, Senator Durbin and others on the Intel Committee. Those who make it up as they go keep changing their stories to fit the argument of the day.
November 18th, 2005 at 6:40 pm#37 who says he's beaten them?
November 18th, 2005 at 6:44 pmWhen I start to preach, harass or make an ass out of myself, I'm sure you'll set me straight Ryan ...
The thing about all this back and forth is, it's healthy. Why should I accept (and vice versa) what you say without challenging it. That would make us all mindless drones. I may not like how some leftists think but, I swear to God, I would die (if it came to that) to protect it. The reason any of us can spout (express may be a kinder way of saying it) is because someone before us had the intelligence to know that to restrict (or downplay) appropriate dissent and disagreement would only serve to create something like modern day Iran. That's why I get frustrated when I get treated like crap for posting a fair, dissenting opinion (or fact from another source (so Ryan won't say he's giving facts while I state opinions ;-) )). It's not healthy to trash someone because you don't like how they think. That's much closer to facism, Ryan, than anything I've ever expressed.
November 18th, 2005 at 7:34 pmGiacomo,
I think the problem is that we have a handful of real trolls that start by posting rude comments, so people get trigger happy and start firing right away, instead of trying to see who wants to debate first, which leads to the arguements.
I don't feel the trolls are cunstructive in anyway shape or form. They do not want to debate or discuss, they want to put down and cause problems.
November 18th, 2005 at 7:38 pmTo the "Cut and Run" Dems (aka "20/20 Hindsight Progs"), Thank you for being so quick to recognize the difficulties of war. I appreciate the fact that national defense has NOT been the strong suit of the Democratic party since the ill-fated nomination of George McGovern. I am grateful prog Dems were not in charge of anything more militarily strenuous than street demonstrations. A wonderful book for all of you Euro-philes is "Peace Kills", by P.J. O'Rourke - enjoy!!!
November 18th, 2005 at 7:40 pmSpeaking of the devil...
November 18th, 2005 at 7:43 pmHey Giacomo,
Check out post #112. See, that is exactly what we are talking about. That is mighty aphrodite's first post of the day and it is an attack. That is why we are very trigger happy here.
November 18th, 2005 at 7:44 pmSponge- Can you please demonstrate where RyANNe, Susan, Marie, Jacksyn, Paul from Mexico, the Schneider twins, JC God of War, etc. etc. etc. EVER disagree with cons in a debate format??? Maybe I've missed a tremendous amount of intellectual intercourse but the common debate technique at TP is, " YOU are a stupid, moronic, greedy, fascist CON (or Repug) - why do you bother coming here - we HATE you."
November 18th, 2005 at 7:46 pmYou don't read, MA. You look to see who posted, then you attack. There have been countless thoughtful arguments presented here, but apparently they have gone right past your eyes, so quick are you to throw out an irrelevant insult.
November 18th, 2005 at 7:49 pm#49 - "Republicans only come in a handful of varieties.
Cheap
November 18th, 2005 at 7:49 pmGreedy
Selfish
Bigoted
Fearful
Mix and match, and you have the classic republican troll.
Comment by Ryan Neat — November 18, 2005 @ 2:39 pm"
****Spudge - Need I say more???? (A true example of progressive debate...)
What is the point of your post, Aphrodite? Why are you trying to put down and harass?
What's that got to do with the fact that Clarke just said the White House receives much more, "raw" intelligence than Congress?
Can we hear your comment on that topic, please?
November 18th, 2005 at 7:50 pmSo, is might aphrodite a conservative?
Friend, why come on a left leaning site and act all aggressive. As a conservative and a christian, I have enough people running around acting like total idiots (saying they represent me) to deal with. How would you like it if Ryan went to a conservative blog (like La Shawn Barber) and started posting vitriolic nonsense?
What do you possibly hope to accomplish ........... ?
November 18th, 2005 at 8:01 pm#115
Let's start by taking a look at this post (#115) that you are asking me for an answer to. Let's see now, you start by calling me Sponge. I did't call you a name. I called you mighty aphrodite.
Did I post anything derogitory about you? Nope, just pointed out that your first post of the day was an attack. That was the truth, not something I made up.
November 18th, 2005 at 8:04 pm#119,
Yes, mighty aphrodite is the type of conservative that comes here all the time and posts these types of attacks. SHe just proved the point I have been making for hours.
She hasn't read any of the posts. Most likely she has only read the headline to the thread topic and posted what she did.
November 18th, 2005 at 8:09 pmWhat do you possibly hope to accomplish ……….. ?
Comment by Giacomo — November 18, 2005 @ 8:01 pm
That's something I've been wondering for the longest time.
IMHO, it's more of a let-steam-out kind of attitude than a real desire to debate or understand a different point of view.
It gets old very quickly...
November 18th, 2005 at 8:14 pmYou notice that she hasn't responded. That is typical also.
November 18th, 2005 at 8:22 pmIMHO some of these guys come here to vent their frustrations. The things they write couldn't be said out loud in public.
They write these things because this forum is anonymous and they can get away with saying anything at all about minorities, women, Jews, etc.
What they release here is their true selves. Unsettling.
November 18th, 2005 at 8:47 pmtruly unsettling. Anything I say here, I have no problem saying in pulic and I do. I have brought the truth to many people. I find most people are really fence sitters. They do not have the time (made that way by politicains I believe) to get involved in politics.
But, if you show them transcripts and videos, there is nothing hidden. Do you know how I do this? It is pretty cool if you ask me.
You see, I am in the technology industry, so I always have some type of geeky toy with me. One of my favorites is the Sony PSP. This thnig can show videos, play audio and show pictures.
I have many documents that I have taken screen shots of, so I can show them to people as images. I have a large collection of documents converted like that. I also have a huge collection of videos (Thanks TP and C&L) and I have audio (Barbara Bush "This is working well for them").
There is nothing more convincing than showing somebosy something tangible.
You say "Here, read section 9528 of No Child Left Behind and decide for yourself" or here watch this video of Jean Schmidt of Ohio make a fool of herself on the Senate floor yourself."
See, I use these people's words, actions and bills against them.
Crap, now the GOP will want to ban Sony PSPs. :)
November 18th, 2005 at 9:11 pmGiacomo,
I'm not a troll, I would never go to a conservative blog and act like you and your selfish petty republican trolls do. But then again, republican blogs all CENSOR, so it's not even possible to troll there.
See, that's one of the MAJOR differences between conservatives and liberals, we actually believe in democracy, free speech and everything that republicans clearly only give lip service to.
November 18th, 2005 at 10:52 pmMightyHermaphrodite,
I debate you all the time. I rubbed your nose in the ground around 1st amendment issues last week, and even cited case law. You by contrast just huffed and puffed like a fairy tale villain. I post and cite information consistently. See I can do both. I can call you the idiot that you are, and I can point out why. You by contrast only lie, smear and print ridiculously debunked propaganda nonsense. You're truly a liar, a fool and pathetic whacko.
November 18th, 2005 at 11:06 pm"The thing about all this back and forth is, it’s healthy. Why should I accept (and vice versa) what you say without challenging it. That would make us all mindless drones. I may not like how some leftists think but, I swear to God, I would die (if it came to that) to protect it. The reason any of us can spout (express may be a kinder way of saying it) is because someone before us had the intelligence to know that to restrict (or downplay) appropriate dissent and disagreement would only serve to create something like modern day Iran. That’s why I get frustrated when I get treated like crap for posting a fair, dissenting opinion (or fact from another source (so Ryan won’t say he’s giving facts while I state opinions ;-) )). It’s not healthy to trash someone because you don’t like how they think. That’s much closer to facism, Ryan, than anything I’ve ever expressed."
Actually fascism is what you'll get on the republican blog sites. Not only can you not post dissenting opinions, but I'm kind compared to what you'll get there.
And I agree with free speach, that's why I like this site, and why republican sites demonstrate the sort of values that must be stopped. And for you to compare my throttling of your nonsense is fascist in light of REAL republican fascism is exactly the kind of intellectual dishonesty you bring that creates my responses to you.
I not sure if you don't mean to be a jackass, but sometimes you definitely act like a jackass out of ignorance. I don't trash you because of 'how' you think, but because you DON'T think! That's the part you always seem to miss.
November 18th, 2005 at 11:13 pmGee, the American people aren't buying this (p)resident's lies anymore......
Guess we didn't get the memo: You are free to do as we say.
I know when history books are written, the chimp's picture will be under the heading of: War Criminal and Worst (p)resident EVER.
November 19th, 2005 at 1:04 amNow this is funny, me thinking anyone gives a crap about my reich-wing B.S.
November 19th, 2005 at 1:04 am#19, you mean when the U.S. illegally began the war by bombing Iraq before the official war began?
November 19th, 2005 at 1:08 amAlso, I believe dumbya and their criminal friends were sure that the VX would have arrived from Turkey in time to be found in Iraq. (shipped by carlyle group to Iraq) Damn Brewster Jennings and Valerie Plame Wilson for finding this before it shipped!!!!!!
I guess they should have used UPS - VX positively absolutely had to be there overnight!
November 19th, 2005 at 1:11 amThe Daily Show outlines our govt. in a silly manner because there is a populus of morons who cannot understand simple language.
The morons need the pictures and silly commentary to stay focused. The chickenhawk morons should be thanking The Daily Show for taking the time to present facts in a manner that they can comprehend.
I love Jon Stewart. He can get anyone, anywhere to appear on his show. Thats how well respected he is.
Keep the laughs coming Jon, laughing about the criminals in charge is sometimes the only way we can deal with our reality.
November 19th, 2005 at 2:52 pmsusan- TDS used to be funny, now it's just angry....like some other people....hmmmmm
November 19th, 2005 at 3:00 pmI think its still funny Mark Marco. I laugh at the way Stewart presents the facts and makes fun of the pugs.
November 19th, 2005 at 3:56 pmMark,
Angry? I'm still waiting for them to get angry. It's still funny to everyone I know, maybe it just offends you in some way you're trying to reject - that's my guess.
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