Rapid Response: Deconstructing the “National Strategy for Victory in Iraq”
Rapid Response: Deconstructing the “National Strategy for Victory in Iraq”
After two-and-a-half years and 2,110 U.S. troop fatalities, the Bush administration released what it calls a “National Strategy for Victory in Iraq” (NSVI). The problem is, it’s not a new strategy for success in Iraq; it’s a public relations document. The strategy describes what has transpired in Iraq to date as a resounding success and stubbornly refuses to establish any standards for accountability. It dismisses serious problems such as the dramatic increase in bombings as “metrics that the terrorists and insurgents want the world to use.” Americans understand it’s time for a new course in Iraq. Unfortunately, this document is little more than an extended justification for a President “determined to stay his course.”
NO STANDARDS FOR ACCOUNTABILITY: Two weeks ago, the Senate overwhelmingly endorsed an amendment calling on the Bush administration to provide a “schedule” for meeting U.S. objectives in Iraq, “information regarding variables that could alter that schedule, and the reasons for any subsequent changes to that schedule.” The NSVI completely rejects this call. “We will not put a date certain on when each stage of success will be reached,” the document states in bold and italicized print, “because the timing of success depends upon meeting certain conditions, not arbitrary timetables.” The only time frames proposed for achieving U.S. objectives are virtually meaningless phrases: “short term,” “medium term,” and “longer term.” The goals for these time frames are equally ambiguous; the so-called “short term” goals, for instance, are listed as “making steady progress in fighting terrorists, meeting political milestones, building democratic institutions, and standing up security forces.”
IGNORING KEY CHALLENGES: When decorated veteran Rep. Jack Murtha (D-PA) presented his Iraq plan two weeks ago, he offered two primary reasons for supporting redeployment. One was the heavy burden the Iraq war has placed on the U.S. military and its recruitment and retention efforts, many of which are at historically low levels. The second was the shifting sentiments of the Iraqi population; Murtha cited a recent poll that found “over 80 percent of Iraqis are strongly opposed to the presence of coalition troops, and about 45 percent of the Iraqi population believe attacks against American troops are justified.” The NSVI ignores both of these fundamental facts. Virtually nothing is said about the well-being of our military, unquestionably a vital element in any strategy for success. Moreover, it disregards the latest Iraqi public opinion data, stating falsely that violence “has been discredited within and outside Iraq.”
DISMISSING INCREASED VIOLENCE: The NSVI emphasizes that U.S. officials “track numerous indicators to map the progress of our strategy,” and offers websites where some of these reports are publicly available. “Americans can read and assess these reports to get a better sense of what is being done in Iraq and the progress being made on a daily, weekly, and monthly basis.” The problem is that these reports have on numerous occasions been found to be inaccurate, or to overstate progress using incomplete or misleading data. Additionally, the document states (in bold print) that these Pentagon statistics “have more strategic significance than the metrics that the terrorists and insurgents want the world to use as a measure of progress or failure: number of bombings.” Surely one needs a wide assortment of statistics to get the full picture from Iraq. But considering the No. 1 “Strategic Pillar” listed in the NSVI is to “Defeat the Terrorists and Neutralize the Insurgency,” it is simply not true to claim that the number of insurgent bombings (now at an all-time high) is irrelevant as a measure of progress.
REPLACING METRICS WITH EMPTY PHRASES: In late-September, Gen. George Casey Jr., who oversees U.S. forces in Iraq, revealed that “[t]he number of Iraqi army battalions that can fight insurgents without U.S. and coalition help has dropped from three to one.” That meant only 700 Iraq Security forces were rated as “Level 1″ on the four point scale created by the U.S. military. Instead of addressing the problem, they’ve abandoned the ratings system. The NSVI notes that “now more than 120 Iraqi army and police battalions are in the fight.” (The term “in the fight,” used six times in the document, is not defined.) The strategy also notes: “As of November 2005, there were more than 212,000 trained and equipped Iraqi Security Forces, compared with 96,000 in September of last year.” It fails to mention that in Feburary 2004, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld claimed there were 210,000 members of the Iraqi Security Forces and a “thousand more that are currently in training.”
THE NATIONAL PAT ON THE BACK: The NSIV is less of a strategy and more of a pat on the back. Much of the 35 pages is devoted to describing how well things are going. Oddly, the strategy declares on Page 5 that “Our Strategy Is Working.” On the economic front we are told, “Our restore, reform, build, strategy is achieving results.” On the political front: “Our Isolate, Engage, and Build strategy is working.” On the security front: “Our clear, hold, and build strategy is working.” With everything going so well, the NSVI reminds us that “change is coming to the region…From Kuwait to Morocco, Jordan, and Egypt, there are stirrings of political pluralism, often for the first time in generations.”
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The “National Strategy for Victory in Iraq” document, along with the Intelligence commission reports, Downing Street memos, Iraq Survey Group and a host of other essential documents are available at:
“The Iraq WMD and Intelligence Resource Center.”
November 30th, 2005 at 9:43 amI heard from a source of mine late last night. He had a copy of this document and tells me that he can prove that the document was not drawn up in 2003, but was drawn up in the last three or four days.
My source tells me that the document was ran off on the NEW printers in the office of the WH staff, and was probably written by Karl Rove.
My source also states that a careful read of the document shows references to situations not even in existence in 2003.
The slick cover has a printers mark denoting that it was printed in 2005.
What we have here folks is an attempt, once again, by the bushies to pull the wool over the eyes of the American people, and he will get by with it, however, my source is going to take all information to the media and see what happens.
November 30th, 2005 at 9:48 amBut you forget, these guys think they can create reality itself. If they say something is irrelevant, then its irrelevant by definition.
I can’t believe they are in charge for three more years.
November 30th, 2005 at 9:53 amthis is pretty insulting… there are no specifics… it mentions “meeting certain conditions,” then fails to give us those conditions…
November 30th, 2005 at 9:54 amwhy would they need a victory plan when bushie said ‘MISSION ACCOMPLISHED’???????? They must live in la la land?
November 30th, 2005 at 9:54 amIt’s the same old rhetoric.
November 30th, 2005 at 9:55 amFew intelligent Americans are going to be hoodwinked again. To continually repeat “how good things are going” while solidiers come home in bags and wheelchairs just demonstrates to Americans that this report is complete bullshit.
I thought the Admin would really steal the attention this time…look good. If TP is accurately portraying what is in this report, than it’s so rosy as to lose all credibility. This gets one day of free pub, then it’s fogotten. And tomorrow we start anew calling for troops to come home….
November 30th, 2005 at 9:56 amHoly cow! They used my title!
My “Victory in Iraq (v0.5)” was done just before we invaded! I still agree with the sentiment the music conveys.
Download: http://download2.ampcast.com/AUD-64285-dld-6620144-0-0-0-DLDLGXGXGXJFQNREJ/Victory_in_Iraq_v05.mp3
Stream: http://www.ampcast.com/LST-64285-mus-128-6620144-0-0-0-DLDLGXGXGXJFQNREJ/Victory_in_Iraq_v05.m3u
The rest of my stuff at that site: http://www.ampcast.com/music/5560/music.php
(And yeah, I know it ain’t pretty. That’s my point. And my apologies for spamming.)
November 30th, 2005 at 9:57 amSAMO !SAMO ! Same ol’ shit , same PR , same increase in expendidure , money goes thru their fingers like the sands of Iraq , more unnecessary death , more destruction to satisty george’s and dick’s egos : “we will not admit defeat ” .
November 30th, 2005 at 9:59 amAll package, no content. Bush will fizzle selling his sizzle….
November 30th, 2005 at 10:00 amWar Criminals. Thats all I have to say…
November 30th, 2005 at 10:00 amI just read the first three pages and browsed parts of the rest.At first blush, this reads like a talking point memo, but then again, what should one expect from a whitehouse that is adapt at writing such things and not policy.
Also, near the end with the quotes by Osama and how Iraq is the “central front on the war on terror” – there is no citation attached with them. Which leads me to believe this is the same old tired talking point of tying Iraq to the “war on terror.”
Overall, they could have saved me the trouble of reading this tripe and just have a one liner of “Since 911…blah blah blah blah” that you hear every whitehouse offical from the Bush to Rumsfeld to Rice to Cheney opposionally state in the face of reality.
//Quicksand
November 30th, 2005 at 10:00 amWow. If I tried to present a vague status report
November 30th, 2005 at 10:07 amlike that at work, I would ripped to shreds
in the meeting.
I guess it is good to be king.
Si I guess this is what bushco means when they tell the Iraqi people they will withdraw when asked. We’ve been asked to leave and bushco replies with a firm :”Up yours, Screw You!!!”. Unfortunately they are telling the american people the same thing.
All this to protect the oil industry. I tell ya, Who else is getting a little tired of coddling the most profitable sector in the US economy? I am.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:08 amissuing a “strategy for victory in iraq” after 2,110 soldiers have died: how is that “supporting the troops”? seems like those 2,110 men and women could have used that support before they were killed.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:08 amIMPEACH BUSH CHENEY NOW!
November 30th, 2005 at 10:10 amThe BIG LIE! and the sheeple will suck it up just like the coolade! Watch. Casey- 1 batallion
November 30th, 2005 at 10:22 amrumsfeld- 212,000 troops “FULLY TRAINED and EQUIPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They just keep lying
billjpa@aol.com
the evidence mounts against this administration…how can they say they are for the people of this country, iraq, or those fighting?
November 30th, 2005 at 10:29 am“Oh my God, It’s…It’s a cookbook !! Aaaaahhhhhh!!!
I wonder where they stole the cover sheet?
November 30th, 2005 at 10:32 amThe report will get all the headlines, 2 minute reports on the national news, and Rove will have fooled those who are always fooled.
Our guys will still be dying while the clear, hold, and build strategy for George Bush’s bubble is working.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:36 amIt truly is startling at how inept our government has become. . .and at how visible that ineptitude is to the public. It’s getting harder and harder to be “Proud to Be American” these days, it’s heartbreaking.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:39 amOr buy American goods, sell american goods, or employ american workers, our country has been sold out from under us for increased profits with the guidence and encouragement of this administration, never, in my nearly 30 years do I remember a time when so much pro corporate/anti citizen legsliation and manuevers have taken place, cities ar looking worse than they did in the 80s and the rich get richer (sorry to rant, it’s still fairly early here)
November 30th, 2005 at 10:48 am“Helping the Iraqi People Defeat the Terrorists and Build an Inclusive Democratic State”
First of all, are we calling the INSURGENTS terrorists?
According the polls taken 45% of the Iraqi people back the terrorists attacking us.
The Iraqi leader just declared the insurgents not terrorists. They said it was perfectly legal.
Also, according to our own generals in Iraq, the Iraqis aren’t doing the fighting, we are. SO, we can’t help somebody when we are doing the work.
Also:
The Political Track
(Isolate, Engage, Build)
The Security Track
(Clear, Hold, Build)
The Economic Track
(Restore, Reform, Build)
In PR these are what are called triplicates. You always want to tie three words together about your product:
“Faster, longer range and more reliable than ever.”
So, what we have here is the PR plan for Iraq. Nothing more than empty words.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:49 amBush’s Iraq rehash is a national strategy for failure:
- No definition of “victory” and whether it is still possible
- No success metrics
- No new resources or troops to control the borders
- No admission of errors and miscalculations
For a potential Democratic alternative, see:
November 30th, 2005 at 10:51 am“A 10-Point Plan for Iraq.”
In comment # 7, Punchy says that few intelligent Americans are going to be hoodwinked again. My question is, how many intelligent Americans are left out there? The “liberal media” have so thoroughly dumbed down the American population at large that I’m afraid there are only a few voices in the wilderness remaining; the rest of the herd will simply continue to go along and get along while the country throws more lives and resources down the toilet (sourced from Halliburton, of course).
November 30th, 2005 at 10:51 amNo Child Left Behind makes it so those in school will never read a 35 pages report (WITH NO PICTURES OR COLOR!) this country just gets dumber and dumberer [SIC] which was made apparent with the 2004 elections, No Child Left Behind is for the millitary, not education…they should scroll it word for word below the next nascar race, or have Jimmy Johnson and Howie Long read it this sunday, then the public may get the picture, but I doubt it
November 30th, 2005 at 10:58 amLipstick on the pig…
November 30th, 2005 at 11:03 amChris in AZ,
I would be happy if they just read section 9528 of the No Child Left Behind Act. You know where schools will lose federal funding if they refues to give the name, address and telephone number of every student from middle school up.
They thought they could get bodies that way instead of a draft.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:05 amYawn. This is the longest “Stay the Course” pamphlet ever. And here we all were, hyping around that this was going to be the beginning of an exit strategy. What did we get? The same goddamned sales pitch that was sold to us in June, and earlier this month. There is no definitieve exit strategy in this document. All I see here are the same old slogans and catchphrases and sales tactics that have defined this administration from Day One of the Campaign in 1999.
Enough, already. The next time Bush decides to hold a policy speech in regards to Iraq, I’m going to assume that I’ve seen it already, I won’t need to see it again, and skip it. There’s no point in watching any of this guy’s policy speeches anymore–you already know what’s coming, even before he starts. And of course, this Admin.’s continuing philosophy to those that oppose its wayward course, is as always: When a problem comes along, you must zip it.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:10 amWhat does it mean to “neutralize” meddling from Syria and Iran? Nixon’s Vietnamization strategy – intended to defuse domestic criticism of an increasingly unpopular war – included building the capacity of the South Vietnamese, reducing US troop levels, making increased use of air power, and broadening the war into Cambodia and Laos. The first three elements of Vietnamization are all in the Bush “plan.” Is it possible that the vague language about “neutralizing” interference from the neighbors is a euphemism for the fourth element – expanding beyond borders?
November 30th, 2005 at 11:14 amIt’s the Sophists at work again. State a reality, any reality, and it will come true if you believe! Clap your hands everyone, or else Tinkerbell will die at the hands of evil Al Queda! It’s YOUR fault if she dies!
November 30th, 2005 at 11:15 amSame Sh*t, Different Day.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:18 amI had a freaky coincidence. At the exact time I was reading: “now more than 120 Iraqi army and police battalions are in the fight.â€
Lynne Cheney was on the Diane Rehm show saying those exact words, verbatim.
I wonder if she memorized the whole document?
November 30th, 2005 at 11:19 am“Americans understand it’s time for a new course in Iraq.”
I just love how partisans try to inflate their opinion by making it look like everyone out there agrees with them. I’m an American and I disagree with most of what I read here, given that it is utterly partisan, utterly political, and will avoid mentioning any fact which does not further the ’cause’ fueled by Bush-hatred.
I just wish some of you people would stop seeing the world through the lens of “I hate George Bush, therefore…” and evaluate things a bit more objectively.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:22 am[...] Think Progress provides a deconstruction of the “Strategy for Victory” document. Oliver Willis provides a summary: There’s really no concrete definition of victory here, still. But it seems that they’re saying we don’t leave until Iraq is a full western style democracy… with ponies. Of course, Iraq is currently a hotbed of violence with 150,000 U.S. troops holding down the fort, and shows no interest in western style democracy, preferring to enshrine religious Sharia law than anything resemble the U.S. constitution. [...]
November 30th, 2005 at 11:22 amHe can’t get his had out of the jar without letting go of the oil…that’s the whole point of it. Meanwhile they’ll just keep on keeping on, re-hashing the same old talking points and dragging this thing out in the hope that they’ll get lucky…of course since they haven’t bothered to define ‘victory’ as yet they won’t even know when that luck finally shows up. Frankly, they should have recognized Rep. Murtha’s pronouncements, along with those from the Arab conference in Egypt, calling for ‘getting our troops the hell out of there’ as just the excuse they need…but then again, there’s still the oil. My, my, what a mess they have made.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:22 amStategery for Victory
We will not “cut and run.” Instead, we will “cut and paste” old speeches.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:30 am[...] Think Progress did some heavy lifting anyway. For your enjoyment: After two-and-a-half years and 2,110 U.S. troop fatalities, the Bush administration released what it calls a “National Strategy for Victory in Iraq” (NSVI). The problem is, it’s not a new strategy for success in Iraq; it’s a public relations document. The strategy describes what has transpired in Iraq to date as a resounding success and stubbornly refuses to establish any standards for accountability. It dismisses serious problems such as the dramatic increase in bombings as “metrics that the terrorists and insurgents want the world to use.” Americans understand it’s time for a new course in Iraq. Unfortunately, this document is little more than an extended justification for a President “determined to stay his course.” … NO STANDARDS FOR ACCOUNTABILITY … IGNORING KEY CHALLENGES … DISMISSING INCREASED VIOLENCE … REPLACING METRICS WITH EMPTY PHRASES … THE NATIONAL PAT ON THE BACK: The NSIV is less of a strategy and more of a pat on the back. Much of the 35 pages is devoted to describing how well things are going. Oddly, the strategy declares on Page 5 that “Our Strategy Is Working.” On the economic front we are told, “Our restore, reform, build, strategy is achieving results.” On the political front: “Our Isolate, Engage, and Build strategy is working.” On the security front: “Our clear, hold, and build strategy is working.” With everything going so well, the NSVI reminds us that “change is coming to the region…From Kuwait to Morocco, Jordan, and Egypt, there are stirrings of political pluralism, often for the first time in generations.” [...]
November 30th, 2005 at 11:35 am“I just wish some of you people would stop seeing the world through the lens of “I hate George Bush, therefore…†and evaluate things a bit more objectively.”
Sorry, anything that comes out of these guys is bad. We will not stop. Our method is working, just look at all the indictments, investigations and guilty pleas. Sitting back and doing nothing was not working. This is. If you don’t like it, I am sure there are some moderate democratic sites you can go to.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:36 amNational Strategy for Victory in Iraq could be better phrased as “National Tragedy for Iraq and America”.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:37 amThe National Strategy for Victory in Iraq is…Lather, rinse, repeat. Then pray it all works out in the end.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:38 amDeconstructing Bush’s “National Strategy for Victory in Iraq”
No accountability, no metrics, ignores rise in violence, self-congratulatory puff-piece — yep, that’s Bush’s, all right.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:47 am[...] Don’t bother reading it. It’s clearly a document that was hastily thrown together in the last two weeks by a White House responding to Jack Murtha…I would bet my mother’s Christmas cookie recipes on that. Think Progress does a breakdown. I agree with Harry Reid. After nearly 1,000 days of war in Iraq, our troops, their families, and the American people deserve more than just a Bush-Cheney public relations campaign. [...]
November 30th, 2005 at 11:55 amWhat about those 8 strategic pillars? They should be working on several of these pillars here at home–like providing essential services, strengthening the economy, strengthening the rule of law, promoting civil rights, and we certainly could use an increase in international support.
November 30th, 2005 at 12:17 pmWhat a joke!
Talk about “drawing down troops” all you like… it aint going to happen!
The US is not going to abandon the oil and Israel – we may see the number of ground troops lowered, but (as with Vietnam and Kosovo) the US will step up their aerial bombing efforts – and consequently, this war will grow…first to Syria, then to Iran. In 5 years the Middle East is going to be chaos… mission accomplished for the neocons.
November 30th, 2005 at 12:22 pmyes, all the war criminals and their families have memorized these figures so they can keep up this retarded stay the course policy for a while longer…let`s hope not too much longer,…IMPEACH…IMPRISON…and EXECUTE…and get this bankrupt,hated by the world country back on track!
November 30th, 2005 at 12:33 pmRead this quote on CNN.com in a story about Bush’s speech:
Bush characterized the U.S. enemy in Iraq as “a combination of rejectionists, Saddamists and terrorists.” The terrorist group, he said, “is the smallest but the most lethal” of the three.
Note that the word “insurgent” is missing. Bush just made up a new word. Went to dictionary.com and could not find rejectionist.
So as I see it, remove the terrorists from the equation and what we have is 2/3 of our “enemy” do not want us occupying their country and/or do not want a new form of government. Message from the U.S.: we know what is best for your country, and if you don’t like it, then tough.
November 30th, 2005 at 12:34 pmMore vagueness and non-specifics from Bush.
And he has the mendacity to blame democrats and the media for the loss of public support for the mission in Iraq.
Boy do these guys think everyone is stupid.
November 30th, 2005 at 12:35 pmwell its about time! now we can go back to fighting East Asia, or is that Eurasia? I keep getting them mixed up. Anyway, long live Big Brother!
I watched the bush speech. if that man were Pinocchio he would have to carry around his nose in a wheel barrel.
November 30th, 2005 at 12:35 pmSTRATEGY? Hmmmm…
That was the most IGNORANT rant that I have ever heard? Many soldiers waiting for some word that they are finally coming home, and they get this CRAP!!!
Stay the Course? What course? What objective? What milestones? When Iraqi battallions are trained? With what…YOU IDIOTS!!! We train them on tactics, with NO LIVE AMMO! THAT is why the run from firefights!!! And they say they are getting better?
What a useless windbag! No wonder he doesn’t come to Ft. Sill, OK! I need another vacation! He needs a CONTROLLED audience to ensure he’s not laughed off the stage! As we know, soldiers are not coached on what to do and say when the President is in town! (wink wink)
November 30th, 2005 at 12:39 pmRoute Irish
There’s a metric for you.
Will you die trying to get to the airport? Will your plane be shot by a SAM on takeoff?
Stay tuned for staying the course RIGHT OFF THE CLIFF!
November 30th, 2005 at 12:47 pmAs an old college professor, I also noticed a trick students try to get away with to make their papers appear to be much longer than they really are: Just repeat the same stuff over and over again! The 38 pages can be boiled down to 2 pages of soundbites. Very disappointing….But the scary quetsion is, “Does this fool anybody?”
November 30th, 2005 at 1:10 pmCUT AND RUN WITH IT
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED again. As poll numbers fall as Iraqis stand up, we will run as fast as we can we will stand down. Victory kind of is ours. Do not look at that request for yet more money the
November 30th, 2005 at 1:10 pmBut the scary quetsion is, “Does this fool anybody?”
Comment by Tricia — November 30, 2005 @ 1:10 pm
Just wait to see the posts from our resident die-hard conservative contributors (I am using that term loosely).
November 30th, 2005 at 1:22 pmHere’s a good one form the NSVI website:
“The following document articulates the broad strategy the President set forth in 2003 and provides an update on our progress as well as the challenges remaining.”
So, Bush has kept his “strategy” secret, even from the republican Senate who are asking for a strategy. Why? Because Bush and plas aren’t republicans. They are NeoCons and the republicans are starting to realize that.
November 30th, 2005 at 1:33 pmNSVI is a cookbook entitiled ‘To Serve Mankind’. At least Rod Serling’s story WAS a fairytale. What’s this BS the Bushies are coming up with?
November 30th, 2005 at 1:34 pm#52 – Absolutely. Great post.
Just to further support your point, I tried counting the number references to terror/terrorist/terrorism.
I got to 104. (And this, lest we forget, the week after the Iraqis agreed that the insurgents should not be referred to as terrorists.)
Still, you never expect much from the Bushies, and this is the standard dross served up for people who aren’t likely to read any more than the front page.
November 30th, 2005 at 1:43 pmWhat a bunch of frauds these guys are. Democracy’s on the march, huh? Well, you’d better march it right back here to the USA– we can use it. The Founding Fathers themselves warned us that unvarnished information is democracy’s lifeblood. Between the Bushites hired pens, Rumsfeld’s propaganda offices, rumour-creating-and-disseminating corporate thinktanks, the corporate monopolized media, and condescending, toothless swill like this– this democracy’s veins are running dry.
November 30th, 2005 at 1:45 pmThis is just a smokescreen to buy more time. Where is the money for the Iraqi oil going? The oil companies and the defense contractors are receiving the benefits while the taxpayers are paying for the war and the poor Iraqi people are receiving the horrible consequences. NSVI gave no specifics other than the quantity of oil being produced. This makes me ashamed of my country.
November 30th, 2005 at 2:01 pmJack, it’s worse than you think. There have been reports in Iraqi newspapers that the oil production in the South,particularly, is greater than the meters are showing. Sadr and other militia leaders have been siphoning oil and selling it on the black market to fund arms purchases. What oil is produced is not sufficient to meet increased demand in the country. So when you hear that oil production is back to or in excess of pre-war levels, you have to realize that the status quo ante isn’t enough. Until they can meet internal demand, there isn’t enough to generate money to pay for reconstruction. And the US has already agreed that Iraq need not repay whay we spend there. Unlike,say, New Orleans, which does have to repay monies provided for Katrina relief.
November 30th, 2005 at 2:29 pmBush reminds me of Baldric from the Blackadder TV show. “I have a cunning plan.” Usually the plan was neither cunning or a plan.
November 30th, 2005 at 2:30 pmSubtitled:
November 30th, 2005 at 3:06 pm“Our Strategy is Our Strategy is Working”
What a complete load of horse shit. Exactly how stupid do you have to be to continue to believe all or any of the Repulicans’ lies ??
November 30th, 2005 at 3:09 pmOkay, once again, there is a problem with these people’s wording. Did you see the bis sign behind Bush? That, not this document is what people will remember. Most people will remember:
“Plan For Victory”
Yeah, well I plan to take a drink of water.
My strategy for getting a drink of water is to stand up for my chair, go through the doorway, turn North and go down one flight of steps, where I will reach the living room. I will traverse the lving room to the kitchen, where I will hunt down a glass, by first staking out the cupboard. If that doesn’t turn up any glasses, I will infiltrate my dishwasher. Since I know the dishwasher to be a hive of glasses, I am pretty sure I will find one there. I will then take that glass to the refrigerator and hold it under the water jug and pull toward me on the tap, to release a stream of cold water into my glass. I will then raise the glass to my lips and let the cold water flow into my mouth, at which point it will start the swallaowing process.
Do you see the difference between a plan and a strategy?
November 30th, 2005 at 3:21 pmwell, all i have to say is: Good luck with the next 3 years with this administration!
November 30th, 2005 at 3:32 pmJust make sure to drink the water in the kitchen so you don’t have to drink it in the living room…
November 30th, 2005 at 3:34 pmIf you are pissed off by this, you should pick up Rolling Stone and read the article by James Bamford “The Man Who Sold the War.” That will piss you off.
November 30th, 2005 at 3:34 pmHey, Spudge – that’s not bad for starters… except we now need measurable objectives. For example:
1. How long to make said way to kitchen…
2. How long to find said glass…
3. How long till said glass of water reaches your mouth.
You see, if you think it might take like a week to get to step 3 and is going to cost you several grand to fill your glass, you’ve got a serious f*cking problem.
And thus, if Chimp actually wanted to lay out a strategy, Murkah would soon realize we have a serious f*cking problem in Iraq. Okay, I take that back. Except for a few retards like NeD, Murkah would realize how serious the situation is in Iraq.
November 30th, 2005 at 3:35 pmIt is clear – nations have the Presidents they deserve – Now the Democrats are saying – and this includes Mrs Clinton – that they were deceived – that they voted for the war becuz Bush lied – But I ask – What about the UNITED NATIONS? What about the inspectors that spent weeks on the ground and found NOTHING!!!! These guys deserve each other!! All morons, but no member of Congress has sent their own kids to war in Irak
November 30th, 2005 at 3:36 pmThis National Plan for Victory in Iraq, according to the White House, has been “declassified”, and they do not indicate if it was formerly TOP SECRET or SECRET.
After reading through it I could not find where it might have been classified at all.
Suspecting another spin (lie) by the folks in bushlandia I called my source and asked him to check the Pentagon and White House classified documents logs for this document from 2003 to date.
He just got back to me at 3:30 EST and informed me that he checked every which way possible and could not find any such document as having been classified.
Anothr lie by the White House folks.
November 30th, 2005 at 3:37 pmYou know we’re screwed when Fafblog has a more detailed plan for victory in Iraq. And one that has a better chance of succeeding, I might add.
November 30th, 2005 at 3:38 pmNo worries mate.
Wonderful Bush Strategy/Public Relations Spin for Victory:
The Iraqi security forces and military “will one day*” have the ability to fight those bad guys we’re having trouble with!! Trust me!!
(* “will one day” Registered Trade Mark, BushCo.)
Uh, wait a moment. Hmmmm. If the WORLD’S MIGHTIEST military is helpless to reduce the STEADILY GROWING number of deadly un-orchestrated, under-funded attacks; Hell might freeze over before the Iraqi military will have ANY effect.
“Helping the Iraqi People Defeat the Terrorists and Build an Inclusive Democratic State – one innocent Iraqi body per minute.”
Now that’s a plan.
November 30th, 2005 at 3:51 pm“You see, if you think it might take like a week to get to step 3 and is going to cost you several grand to fill your glass, you’ve got a serious f*cking problem.”
Dumb Fox,
Exactly. If Bush put forth a real strategy, America would figured out that this neverending, illegal war is going to cost $10 trillion. That is the real problem right there.
November 30th, 2005 at 3:59 pmYou little sissies who are crying over the skirmish in Iraq make me sick! You ain’t seen nothin’ yet! USA! USA! USA!
U.S. conflicts destined to come within the next 10 years:
Iran
North Korea
Next 20 years:
Syria
Iraq II (oil induced war)
China (new cold war, no shots will be fired)
Next 50 years:
Russia, France, & Germany vs. everyone else, has potential to escalate into a nuclear conflict
Prediction:
100 years from now, Saudi Arabia, which will be controlled by people we would today call radical Islamic types, will own over 75% of the world’s wealth. Christians will be persecuted to a degree not seen on this planet since Jesus walked amongst us…dark days are ahead, I’m afraid.
Be thankful for the gifts God has given you. Appreciate your family. Trust Jesus.
November 30th, 2005 at 4:03 pm#74
Ummmmm………ok.
November 30th, 2005 at 4:04 pmsame shit,differant day
November 30th, 2005 at 4:07 pmI HAVE CHILD PORNOGRAPHY!
November 30th, 2005 at 4:10 pmRe: Post 77
Not funny at all. I hope this site records your IP Address. That stuff shouldn’t be joked about.
November 30th, 2005 at 4:12 pmwe have heard this before.he just finally wrote it down
November 30th, 2005 at 4:13 pmNO TRUTH IN A WORLD RUN BY MAN.
November 30th, 2005 at 4:19 pmI just called customer service for the company that services this website (WHOIS is a valuable resource). Anyway, I can’t believe they would release this info to me, but I just verified that the person who posted message# 77 has the same IP Address as “bud”. When will people learn that the web ain’t a place to hide…they WILL find you.
Good luck, “bud”.
November 30th, 2005 at 4:28 pmBIGIdiot,
Bahaha, first of all the ISP wouldn’t track that, or even have the tools to do so.
You’re such a republican retard.
Whoever posted as you was probably more accurate than you care to admit, which would explain why you tried to defuse the blame to someone else. Are you sure that wasn’t your subconscious posting? I bet it was…
November 30th, 2005 at 5:13 pmI disagree with those who say it’s “nothing new.” It is most definitely not a course change but for once the ideas that have only been hinted at behind so much obfuscation have been laid out. It was comforting to actually have my own rationales for continuing to support the war actually acknowledged.
Do i like Bush and Rumsfeld? No. Have mistakes been made. Most definitely. Was this core to the War on Terror at the point we started it? Probably not. However, we ARE in this war now. Why and how we got to this point is far less important than where we go.
I’ve been desperately hoping for a real dialogue on the way forward. Unfortunately I only see one strategy on the table that’s even remotely acceptable, and it’s been wrapped up in the baggage of mistakes made and not admitted. Complaining about why we shouldnt be there doesn’t address the future. Hating Bush doesn’t address the future. Some have said to come home and basically try to forget it happened. I’ve yet to see a serious discussion about the challenegs and costs we face in doing so. It easy to see the costs of the current policy; lets develop options and look at the long term effects of them.
I’m just a moderate hoping for a real debate on the way forward. A debate I have yet to see, on options I’ve yet to see fleshed out. I’m not holding my breathe.
November 30th, 2005 at 5:15 pmNational Strategy For Victory in Iraq – The Musing
I read the National Strategy For Victory In Iraq (NSVI) three times. Finally, it hit me; this thing is the strawman for an advertising campaign designed to sell a product that does nothing and nobody is buying. It reads like something produced by a g…
November 30th, 2005 at 5:19 pmall right, let’s just cut the bs and annex iraq. at least bush and co wouldn’t be lying, glossing over, justifing, or rationalizing their bullheaded decisions. their ivory tower attitudes are ridiculous.
November 30th, 2005 at 5:51 pmThe “way forward” is marked “exit” and Iraqis and Americans would all be better off if the U.S. military would head for the door.
Like most posters here, I was disgusted by Bush’s NSVI dog-and-pony photo opportunity. The same lies that got us into Iraq are trotted out again as if they had not been thoroughly debunked long ago.
But let me cut to the chase: the reason that there is not now and never was an “exit” strategy is because the Bush regime never had any intention of leaving. The strategy from the beginning was to remove Saddaam Hussein, replace him with a hand-picked U.S.-backed regime, then garrison the country with numerous “enduring bases” from which the neo-cons could project American power throughout the region, picking off other enemies of Israel one at a time, until the way was clear for the return of Jesus or some other fantasy scenario.
What the neo-cons never imagined, being the arrogant neo-colonial elitists that they are, was that the “brown people” would actually mount an effective resistance and tie down 100K U.S. troops for years, killing and wounding thousands in the process and draining America’s coffers.
Anything short of what the Bushies set out to accomplish will go down as a defeat, hence their refusal to do anything other than “stay the course” and pray that something saves their sorry asses.
I’m going to be an optimist and book my flight to the Hague early. I don’t want to miss a single day of the war crimes trials when all of these malicious bastards are in the dock.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:17 pmmore of the same… we’ve heard every phrase before. we buried my cousin two weeks ago. he was murdered in Iraq. his real sacrifice was that he gave up his leave time for a man with children. he was 23. smart. fun. a great soldier. and while none of the family believe in the war, we do believe in a military. every generation has had a soldier or two. but when he said, “sometimes i feel like i’m in lord of the rings and i have the ring and i can’t find my way to mordor.” it’s crap there, guys. this is all a very bad deal. what’s happened to america? this document is nothing. it’s empty. it’s a lie. it’s a campaign brochure. it’s a fund-raising brochure. it’s a public relations brochure.
it’s all crap. all crap.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:35 pmthe way out – is to accept the offers of other countries to help train these iraqi forces. america has said “no” to many countries. if this is truly a coalition, then the u.s. need not control everything anymore, obviously we’re failing. we also need to let iraq rule itself. it is a tribal nation. you cannot turn a tribal nation into a democracy. they have to want a democracy first. didn’t the declaration of independence come before the constitution? have these people realized they are a free people? of course not, becuase we, the oppressors, the occupying presence will only allow what we think is acceptable to occur. c’mon. the socio-anthropolical aspect is being missed. “how can we overcome violence and oppression with oppression and violence” – martin luter king jr.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:41 pmRIDICULOUS!!! If this document were the blueprints for a house, no contractor could build it. This “blueprint” would be the equivalent of handing a carpenter a pamphlet that says “A house is a building with four walls, a floor and a ceiling, and some other stuff like windows and doors. Now you know how to build one – and it will be just SUPER when it’s done!”
Even the “strategy” is peppered (dare I say, “liberally?”) with quotes from dozens of the President’s speeches about invading Iraq. As if we haven’t heard this dialogue before. I don’t know about you, but when a song repeats its chorus over & over again, ad nauseum, I tune out. Who does he think will be listening in the end.
Every time Bush make as a speech he should just go out to the podium, open his mouth wide, turn on a tape recorder and just let it play. It’s the same old tired rhetoric (word for word) over and over again.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:56 pmreferring to 83…. TM, I don’t think a “mistake” is the right word. I think “deception” “manipulation” “lies” are more accurate. If we don’t deal with the truth, the solutions will never come. As far as I am concerned, just pull our guys out of there like we did in Vietnam. We recovered very well after that. We would be saving thousands of lives. Bush and his cronies are profiting hansomely from this war, that is the truth. Bush isn’t doing this to spread deomocracy in Iraq because we had alligned ourselves with some pretty hard dictators who brushed aside human rights in the past. You can’t just say Bush made a “mistake”. He lied and his purpose there is different than what he is saying why we are there. The solution??? leave. When things are based on a lie, the truth will invariably come out, through demonstrations, etc. Congressmen want to be relected, I think when the pain is bad enought, then the people of the United States will start to do something about it. Just like what happened in Vietnam. God willing, it will take a lot less time.
November 30th, 2005 at 7:03 pmWhy does my 16 year old daughter keep getting offers in the mail to join the military with promises of thousands of dollars? How sick is this? We are getting passports in order.
November 30th, 2005 at 7:05 pmBush’s Speech
Unless you’ve been sleeping under a rock for the last 24-48 hours, you probably know that Bush was going to detail his grand strategy for not losing victory in Iraq. Because I know that listening to this President hem and…
November 30th, 2005 at 7:35 pm[...] After reading the Executive Summary, I didn’t have the stomach to do this but Think Progress has a complete deconstruction of the “Victory Plan”. [...]
November 30th, 2005 at 7:57 pmWhy did it take him so long to come up with this BS? He promised to explain / excuse himself right from the beginning:
“For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
October 16, 2002
Statement by the President
Today I have signed into law H.J. Res. 114, a resolution “To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.” [...]
In addition, in accordance with section 4 of H.J. Res. 114, I intend to submit written reports to the Congress on matters relevant to this resolution every 60 days. To the extent possible, I intend to consolidate information in these reports with the information concerning Iraq submitted to the Congress pursuant to previous, related resolutions. (…)
GEORGE W. BUSH
November 30th, 2005 at 8:04 pmTHE WHITE HOUSE,
October 16, 2002.“
Lies… Lies… and more lies. Doesn’t this guy get it we don’t believe a word he says. The whole lot of them need to be held accountable for the mess they have got us in. They are a bunch of greedy self serving bastards who have no regard for sanctity of life. I am so disgusted with the state of this country we are definitely in the worst of times with no clear vision for our future. It is going to be a very long 3 years.
November 30th, 2005 at 8:29 pmThe most ironic news of the day. Iraqi citizens have asked Saddam to be allowed to run for president!
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/print.asp?page=2005\121\story_1-12-2005_pg4_14
Good job republicans, you’ve so screwed up the occupation that the iraqis prefer a dictator over american troops! That kind of ineptitude is clearly a NeoCon republican specific trait! It’s the same sort of checked out, irresponsible and inept attitude that’s rampant with the retardatrolls on this site!
November 30th, 2005 at 8:37 pmForgive me if I’m repeating someone else’s post (couldn’t read through all of them)….but I am disturbed by Bush’s reference to “. . . not arbitrary time tables.” He is the consummate instigator of arbitrary time tables: (1) returning sovereignty to Iraq = arbitrary deadline; (2) January 2005 Iraqi elections = arbitrary deadline; (3) completion of Iraqi “constitution” = arbitrary deadline (even though Iraq requested more time to work out some extremely important issues…which were never resolved). In his quest for “instant democracy”, Bush & Co. have ALWAYS set arbitrary time tables. Who the hell is he kidding?
November 30th, 2005 at 9:13 pmGeorge here and as your president I would like you to know that each and everyone of you will be recorded for your lack of suport and will get a oneway ticket to the closest FEMA internment camp near you and since you won’t be needing any of your internal organs they will be harvested for a tidy profit for Dick and me. hehehehehehehehehehe Oh by the way if you have not guessed by now 911 was a inside job. hahahahahahahhahahah
November 30th, 2005 at 9:16 pmthis is no longer a democracy, and the bushites have the power. besides, cheney, rumsfeld and their patsy “the President” have said they know better for this country than the majority. why bother wasting the paper, ink and glue for their wasteful deceit? we need the paper and the ink to fill out all the national debit memos.
November 30th, 2005 at 9:52 pmThe underlying assumption in much of this is that the administration is Queeny-the-lead-dog in running our country. That’s false. The US Constitution makes it very clear that the Congress has the responsibility for the national defense, to raise and support armies, to declare war, impose taxes, etc. and the President is the administrator and the troop commander in wartime. So any policy statements and strategies should be the responsibility of the Congress, as well as the duty to declare (and undeclare!) war.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:29 pmUnfortunately the Congress seems largely to have forfeited their responsibilities.
OK, folks. Yes, I’m a Republican. I’m hitting your website in prep for a discussion I will be having tomorrow with a Dem friend of mine — we’ve both agreed to read the NSVI tonight in prep. Actually, I don’t watch Fox, listen to Rush or O’Reilly, or particularly care for Karl Rove. I listen to NPR, watch CNN, read the Washington Post and frequently listen to “your” side in gathering info to form my own positions.
I’ll also admit that I cringe when I listen to GWB present/debate/speak. Most of us could probably out-spar him hung-over, on 2 hours of sleep, with the flu, and a broken filling in our mouth. GWB isn’t my favorite President, OK? I admit it.
I read all 98 posts above me (kudos to TM for posting #83 … most objective and constructive, in my opinion).
Tell me something — do you REALLY believe that George W. purposely deceived the American public (and the UN, and the Democrats, and foreign intelligence services) to drag us into armed conflict in Iraq to A. Avenge his father for Desert Storm, B. Faciliate Halliburton profit, C. Maximize US Oil Industry profits? Do you really think he and the “NeoCons” lied and have some grand plan to take office, use power, and gain personally, at the expense of the majority? Really?
I see so much venom and ire and Bush-hate that I wonder if both our sides haven’t completely lost focus and objectivity.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:38 pm“Tell me something — do you REALLY believe that George W. purposely deceived the American public (and the UN, and the Democrats, and foreign intelligence services) to drag us into armed conflict in Iraq to A. Avenge his father for Desert Storm, B. Faciliate Halliburton profit, C. Maximize US Oil Industry profits? Do you really think he and the “NeoCons†lied and have some grand plan to take office, use power, and gain personally, at the expense of the majority? Really?”
How many times do I need to type in “Yes”
I count 8
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
I will also add that Bush is as useless as a mans nipple.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:51 pmOK, Spudgie … then I have to put you in the Dem category similar to my Republican friends who are still convinced that Hillary had Vince Foster assassinated and Bill ran a drug operation in Arkansas to fund his gubenatorial campaigns. Sorry to cross over into your domain here.
But a word of advice — if you folks don’t get rid of Howie Dean, and the Massachussetts/SanFrancisco/NYC-centric Kennedy/Feinstein/Hillary face of your party, then you’re going to have to get ready to stomach another 7 years, not 3. Kerry was very wrong — the Democratic Party DOES need a major change in approach and platform.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:57 pm#103
I’ll agree on Hillary and Kerry. They are both Republican Lite. I like Dean, I don’t care if he screamed Ohio, Arkansas. I thought that was rather funny. It drives me nuts that people are considering Hillary for a run at President. I would rather have a real American, like Jack Murtha.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:04 pmAnd what’s with the “Spudgie.” I didn’t call you any names. And you people come on here and ask why you get attacked. It is because you do it first everytime.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:06 pmI think the most telling thing about the “NSVI” and the most obvious indicator that it is simply a Press release is that the bullet point icons on the pages are…wait for it…CHECK MARKS!
Establishing democracy “Check!”
Killing insurgents “Check!”
Winning hearts and minds “Check!”
That’s stunningly moronic
November 30th, 2005 at 11:19 pmGO READ 1984. This is it. History is what they say it is. Bush is rewriting history. Deny everything. Remember you can fool some of the people all of the time…it’s just too bad some of the people are the majority these days ( and from the south too.)
November 30th, 2005 at 11:20 pmMr. SpudgeBoy:
I really didn’t think I was attacking you by calling you “Spudgie” … c’mon, you use the name “SpudgeBoy” as your name. Is “Spudgie” so bad in comparison?
My apologies.
Wow … you think Kerry and Hillary are “Republican LITE?” I’m definitely not having you over for any barbeques.
Who do you want to see the DNC nominate for 2008? I mean, other than Murtha … because my friends will just trash him with some swiftboat story discrediting his own service and all.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:21 pmJohn,
Check these out:
What’s Wrong With Cutting and Running?
by Gen. (ret.) William E. Odom
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/odom.php?articleid=7487
and:
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/pa12_murtha/pr051117iraq.html
WAR IN IRAQ — Congressman John Murtha
and finally:
IRAQ IS ASKING FOR US WITHDRAWAL
Iraqi Leaders Call for Pullout Timetable
Tuesday November 22, 2005
By SALAH NASRAWI
Associated Press Writer
CAIRO, Egypt (AP) – Leaders of Iraq’s sharply divided Shiites, Kurds and Sunnis called Monday for a timetable for the withdrawal of U.S.-led forces in the country and said Iraq’s opposition had a “legitimate right” of resistance.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:24 pmJohn,
November 30th, 2005 at 11:27 pmand don’t forget to click on my name
“I mean, other than Murtha … because my friends will just trash him with some swiftboat story discrediting his own service and all.”
You wouldn’t catch me hangin around anybody that would attack as distinguished a veteran and American as Jack Murtha.
I am not sure who I would back. Many are not even considerin it and the ones that are I don’t like. With that in mind, that is how the Democrats will not take over in ‘08.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:30 pmYou mean their plan is pragmatic and not theoretical?
Darn! What a bunch of bastards living in the real world where things don’t always go how they are written on paper!
November 30th, 2005 at 11:37 pmDon:
OK … I read the Odom article. Thanks. “Fair and Balanced,” for certain. And credible.
But I didn’t really post my comments on your board to get into a debate on “withdraw or not?” with you. You’re going to get too much agreement from me on the facts about things not going smoothly for it to be any fun for either of us.
I’m really genuinely curious, confused, concerned about ideas that I hear from the party representing half my neighbors laden with accusation of malicious intent — lies, deception and acts for the purpose of personal profit.
You can call Bush a dufus, buffoon, marblemouth, Silverspoon-raised undeserving whatever. But I just can’t really believe that YOU believe that “The Bushies,” “The NeoCons,” are the intentionalEVILdoers that you conclude as the reason we’re IN Iraq in the first place.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:39 pmreally now guys… did any of you REALLY expect Dubya to do anything other than what was done today?? really? The facts are clear to some of us, and not so much for others. Mainly, the people who “don’t want to believe it” are the people who need to WAKE UP. No one who knows the facts and incriminating evidence of the 9/11 conspiracy (notice lack of the word “theory”) could possibly have any respect for this administration. Let’s not only hope, but actually DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, so we can get these damn WAR Criminals out of office, and reclaim our Constitution before we all end up “chipped” in fear of FEMA camps and foreign troops roaming our neigborhoods in full assault gear, raiding our homes and taking our guns. And also, GOD DAMNIT, LEGALIZE CANNABIS! All this War bullshit is distracting us from some of the most important issues at home! I mean, seriously, Cannabis has never killed anyone who used it responsibly* and PEANUTS KILL MORE PEOPLE THAN CANNABIS(which has killed zero). Obviously, this atrocious debacle in the middle east is more important than cannabis prohibition, but C’MON PEOPLE!
November 30th, 2005 at 11:41 pmReally smart George, you are walking to towards the cliff edge but you want to stay the course.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:47 pmStop using the military for political speeches. As a retired military I’m pretty sure the soldiers are sick and tired of this war.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:49 pmHave any of you read the patriot act? I bet not… neither did congress… Anyone ever heard of “Hiding in plain site?” How about “smoking gun?” these are very important phrases that need not be overlooked in the quest for Truth.
Anyone ever heard of Alex Jones? how bout Jeff Rense? I and many others are much more likely to believe what the gov’t calls “misinformation” because it is so obvious the gov’t is giving us lies and impeding our investigations and press coverage of truth. Word of the Century, “TRUTH.” That’s what it all comes down to, and when we find/expose enough pieces of it, we will all know what must be done.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:05 amJohn,
Iraq has been a project of both parties, going back to Clinton’s airstrikes and embargo and the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998. The basic reason we’re in Iraq is empire and profit. And, again, for furher information on that, click on my name.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:22 amIraq was a project going back to ‘90. The oil companies some how got a private military force to destroy the Kuwaiti oil wells. They knew they would be contracted to rebuild them. They also knew that they could blame fleeing Iraqi forces for the damages. This is where the planning all begins. Make Saddam look like the worst possible guy to get public support. This war is going to be the epicenter of the middle east for the next 50 years if the US doesn’t get out. Control of the oil fields is the number one priority. Forget about democracy. Iraq will look like Palestine with check points and all that if Bush “stays the course.”
December 1st, 2005 at 1:04 amDon,
That’s all half truths. Actually rumsfeld sold tons of equipment and weapons (including WMDS) to Saddam under reagan, so to discuss clinton who was both measured and reasonable with any of these republican thieves is disenguous and wrong.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:13 amAnd don’t let the door slam you on the butt on the way out…
December 1st, 2005 at 2:30 amPATHETIC!!!!
Interesting.
December 1st, 2005 at 5:40 amBush finally publishes his plan and yet is still criticized. Now there’s a surprise.
What amazes me about you liberals is that nobody in this forum has ever served in Iraq. I double-dare anybody to poll the US military decisively and see what the numbers tell you. But the truth is just too painful for you to swallow. You people are the most dangerous sort alive. You’d rather LOSE a shooting war than have the Republicans re-elected. Does it not strike you as odd that the lib’s have a vested interest in an American DEFEAT in Iraq?
Grow up. Quit making decisions emotionally and use what’s left of your hippie-pot-smoking brains.
Mike is correct. All those who disagree with our wonderful leader is anti-American. It is only because of people like Mike that I have the strength to HATE the enemy. The enemy is all you liberal anti-american californian new york commies. You have a satanic plan for America to fail. See, Mike is correct. God has spoken to him and told him to destroy the Muslims!
December 1st, 2005 at 6:09 amMaybe that’s because I spent 10 years of my life in the middle east. 15 months of it fighting terrorists. I think I have an insight to the terrorist mind. Much more so than folks in this forum.
December 1st, 2005 at 6:30 amSo let’s have an honest debate here…no name calling, no whining, no labeling, shall we?
Question: what do you suppose would happen if the US pulled out of Iraq immediately?
Let’s review – First Mike says any dissenter has nothing more than a “hippie pot smoking brain” –
December 1st, 2005 at 7:04 amNow he says let’s have an honest debate – “no name calling – labeling” etc.
That’s rich coming from a supporter of a cocaine snorting draft dodging president.
Jesus – I thought all the hard hats had finally died off.
Too bad their spawn lives on.
This is great. America wants political pluralism in the world? The US of A?? How many parties you guys have again you can vote for? 2 and a half, right? We Belgians often mock the American political structure with the use of the word ‘tweestromenland’ which is a dutch term for Mesopotamia, the land at the Tigris and Eufrate. Mesopotamia is also called “the land of two streams” in Europe. American politics only has two (and maybe another half) streams: republican, democrat, liberal. I would think many Middle-East countries already have a better form of political pluralism than the USA. They probably even had it before the USA even existed! In Belgium we can choose between more than 7 parties and still I don’t believe there’s actual democracy here. For instance: on my ballot there’s no option “Anarchy”. Wouldn’t a real democracy give its voters the option to abandon all rules? IF not, to me, that’s not a democracy….which literally means: the people speak/decide/choose. Georgie reigns in the land of constitutional totalitarianism.
December 1st, 2005 at 7:13 am“It is only because of people like Mike that I have the strength to HATE the enemy”…. There’s no strength needed to hate someone. There’s strength needed to turn the other cheek, to fight hate with love… that’s strength. It takes strength NOT to take revenge. You must have it confused with fear and stupidity. There is no enemy but yourself. There is no threath but your so-called ‘elected’ president, starting wars over lies, doing nothing but self-enrichment, blaming everyone but himself, telling you whatever you want to hear.
December 1st, 2005 at 7:25 amI completely agree with Jericho.
December 1st, 2005 at 7:39 amSweet Jesus…….can anyone say Wag the Dog?
December 1st, 2005 at 8:56 amI could post a hundred links to the information, but that would only help if you were willing to learn the truth. So, when you’re ready to learn, go learn.
http://www.911wasalie.com/phpwebsite/index.php
http://www.911proof.com/
http://infowars.com/
DARE to think for yourselves!
December 1st, 2005 at 9:24 amI guess no one had the guts to answer my question. Maybe that’s because nobody can. Just more flaming. But that’s what I’d come to expect. Too bad no one here is willing to debate this with me. I’d looked forward to someone who can give me an honest position without getting emotional.
December 1st, 2005 at 10:01 amOh, and “infuriated by dubya/neocons”…are those links serious? I’ve seen better conspiracy theories from Michael Moore.
For “erskine”…I just looked at my original post and just couldn’t seem to find where I said that anybody who dissents is a ‘hippie pot smoking brain’. Check your facts. Oh…and you never answered my question.
For our Belgian friend…more than two parties is a fascinating system. I live in Germany and know well how the parliamentary system works. I think it’s great that people have seven or so choices in German politics. The only drawback is that when you get so many parties, you wind up with a recipe for gridlock…hence the current situation in Germany. It has it’s benefits, but often nobody holds a majority and getting any agenda put through government gets bogged down in the beaurocracy. Nonetheless, it has certain benefits. America’s two-party system isn’t perfect. But its tempered with the fact that some members of both parties tend to be moderates, and don’t always strictly vote the party line. It encourages people to look more closely at the candidate and not simply his party.
Once again, for all, I’ll pose the question…
What do you think would happen if the US pulled its troops out immediately?
I have bookmarked this page for my daily dose of comedy.
You guys are so blinded by your own hate you can’t see straight. What’s it like to have your life utterly defined by whom you hate? Must truly suck to be you.
Anyway, keep up the great posts. It’s great seeing you guys foaming at the mouth and utterly losing your minds screaming over cyberspace at each other.
Sigh, nothing more fun that checking out the daily rantings of the treason wing of our country… Oooh what a shame, I finished reading the comments. Come on guys! Ratchet it up a notch. You guys are getting repetitive!
Randy
December 1st, 2005 at 10:40 amI must say, SOME of the stuff in those links IS serious, and SOME (if not all) is highly debatable. Those who do not see the truth, or at least MOST of the truth, are those who CHOOSE not to see it.
Also, I have tremendous respect for the service members and veterans. Not because they are willing to kill whoever they are told to, but because they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for the sake of “freedom.”
However, they are being misused and lied to about many things. Our political leaders have hidden (or by now not-so-hidden) agendas and are performing many of the EXACT SAME ATROCITIES and WAR CRIMES that “they” accuse the “enemy” of perpetrating on their own people. I really can’t decide if Dubya is a clever mastermind, pretending to be a doofus as a cover, or if he is simply a puppet enjoying an entertaining illusion of power and authority… or perhaps it’s a mixture of the two. Perhaps he really is a mastermind… AND a doofus… which would explain how the “9/11 coverup” was so incompetantly Botched. If he was a real mastermind, he would have made sure there were no “unanswered questions.” So, he must be a doofus, who believes himself to be a mastermind… or perhaps that’s all part of the act. Maybe “they” want us to be totally confused and “at each others throats” over this whole mess, so “they” can come in and “save the day.” “They” of course are the obscure shadow government pushing for a Global Police State. They are orchestrating this whole thing, so that when we finally get rid of Dubya’s administration, we will be “begging” the shadow government to “save us.”
Also, i don’t profess to know exactly what would happen if we pulled all US military out of iraq completely right now… but i think i know what’s going to happen if we DON’T… and THAT is what’s more frightening.
ALSO… someone’s goose is going to be cooked over this whole DU weapons and NUpalm (new napalm… same effect, slightly different ingredients) and White Phosphorus shit. Nuclear fallout is already occuring gradually, because of excessive amounts of weapons experiments around the world, and on our own soil. All those vaporized particles of nuclear materials DON’T GO AWAY… they simply “dissipate” throughout the entire environment and make their ways into our food, water, air, and eventually cause cancer and genetic mutations in ALL LIFEFORMS. Can’t blame it all on Dubya… too bad.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:46 amHi Mike,
If the US pulls out now there would be a civil war. And hey, looks like there will probably be one anyway. Either way, I guess this CAN be blamed squarely on the present US administration, without emotion, but simply as a matter of cause and effect…
Place this as part of the ongoing US Iraq policy dating back to the active support for Saddam Hussein when it was coinvenient to use Iraq against Iran. The F### Up of Gulf War 1 and the betrayal of the (then) opposition by Bush senior, and hey, we can blame the British too, and then God Himself, who never much liked Babylon after it was nasty to His people back in bible writing times!
The question is: Did the President have another policy choice(Yes). Several in fact.
I think the scenario of attacking Saudi Arabia is one of the more amusing jokes, if we are permitted jokes in these dark matters.
The problem with choosing to start a war is the vast increase in the unnecessary shit and extended grief that it entails.
This is surely the kind of big career make or break choice demands some measure of personal responsibility. What accounts for a lot of Bush hating is that the SOB doesn’t seem to have any. Man, I would have quit any job where I f***ed up so badly, wouldn’t you? What’s wrong with your country, a man just can’t walk out? All the little guys (Pearl, Wolfewitz, Powell, that Press secretary dude) did! They know or feel something George doesn’t???????
In Iraq, the US started the war, it had no connection to 9-11. This is not emotional it is just the fact of the matter. I’m glad you are sticking up your hand to take responsibility for it, and hope you continue to do so however long it takes.
But you have to thread the needle of the way you talk to yourself about it to find out if the justifications really mesh with the reality.
Your views can be respected and as a vetran you also get cudos for knowing about the situation on the ground. Just how complicated is it? Too much for any of us!
At some point we have to face the root of the issue which is whether the best choices were made. Your government (whether consciously which is evil, or unconsciously which is pathetic) has made a disasterous policy with regards to Iraq, and people are dying and killing and totally losing their souls without good reason, and in a fashion that would not have occured without this intervention.
The real horror is that your President doesn’t actually give a shit! he is not the kind of guy that would even made sergeant in the infantry, and he simply lacks imagination and empathy with details about things! In any company this kind of f### up would lead to dismissal. What’s wrong with the political scene… and where is personal accountability or the possibility of an honest leader gone?
Good luck with everything Mike! And don’t worry, whether your arguments win or lose, plenty of your comrades and plenty more innocents are going to die, that didn’t have to, and you might like to blame all of that on Osama bin Laden,
But you can’t do that in the case of Iraq.
Take care.
Hope you enjoy a peaceful retirement from active service.
Tantrum
December 1st, 2005 at 12:09 pmMike,
We committed aggression against Iraq in violation of the Nuremburg Principles and the UN Charter. Tens of thousands of people have been killed, and hundreds of thousands maimed physically and mentally. Our occupation of Iraq has fueled an insurmountable, violent resistance. US troops have been involuntarily extended and returned to the war for their second and third tours. At the current pace, with no end in sight, there will be fourth and fifth tours, seriously limiting their chance of survival. The US army is virtually broken.
There is no end in sight in Iraq, and you ask: What would happen if we leave? What could be worse??
Mike, the highly-touted sovereign government of Iraq is in place, with a highly-touted constitution. The removal of our occupation irritant, together with some help from our State Department (heretofore shut out of the process by the Pentagon), working with the Iraqis, would allow some modus vivendi for the Iraqis. This might involve partition of the country, I don’t know. But there would be some way to settle the situation if we weren’t occupying their country. We settled things with our civil war without outside infuence, let the Iraqis work it out. It’s their country, not ours.
Unfortunately, the chances of something sensible like this happening are virtually nil. We have a God-driven president, commanding a Just War, with Just Torture, for empire and profit, and he (until now) has been given free rein to conduct his reign of terror by a comatose congress.
Many of us are involved in trying to influence others, one at a time, of the folly of our current approach. Some of us are particularly trying to influence the military, because a war cannot be fought with reluctant troops. This also extends to prospective recruits. And the great lethargic ship of congress seems to be slowly changing course. So there is a little hope.
Mike, join us.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:17 pmMike,
A quote from Rumsfeld’s recent press conference:
“Our problem is that any time something needs to be done, we have a feeling we should rush in and fill the vacuum and do it ourselves. You know what happens when you do that? First of all, you can’t do it, because it’s not our country, it’s their country. And the second thing that happens is they don’t develop the skills and the ability and the equipment and the orientation and the habit patterns of doing it for themselves. They have to do it for themselves. There isn’t an Iraqi that comes into this country and visits with me that doesn’t say that. They know that. They know that they’re the ones that are going to have to grab that country. And it’s time.”
December 1st, 2005 at 12:38 pm. . . Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense
stay the course…..stay…STAY….Good Boy
December 1st, 2005 at 1:43 pm(bark, bark) Sounds like Americans are being
f***n trained like animals
hi i extremily dislike how we are still fighting and getting nothing acomplished. but BUSH is doing nothing to get our men and women home i belive we have over stayed our welcome LETS COME ON HOME
December 1st, 2005 at 2:08 pmWhat do i think if we pulled our troops out immediatly????
December 1st, 2005 at 2:11 pmCHAOS…. Iraq would problaby have an eight year war with Iran. Oh wait…been there done that!!!!!
If you teach a Pitbull to fight, and give him WEAPONS,
he will problaby either bite you a$$, or kill you. So, do you really think that staying them training them Pitbulls will really Work??????
mike,
December 1st, 2005 at 3:06 pmreally we should not care what happens to iraq.that is why muslims hate us.they think different.radical muslims are as bad as radical jews and radical christians.if we left iraq right now the same shit would be happening,except our brave soldiers would not be dying.and we would have no reason to care.the only reason i care is because 11 of my friend there right now could die next.now answer a question for me.if we spent 200 billion dollars on alternate fuel would we care about iraq?instead let’s work on something everybody else wants and we can overcharge them and get our economy going.oil is old news,it’s time for something else.
Right On Bud!
December 1st, 2005 at 3:10 pmOur National Strategy for Victory in Iraq is a definitive, comprehensive and coherent statement of US strategic objectives in the Iraqi theater of what Osama bin Laden has aptly described as “World War III.” It provides a template against which a viable military strategy can, working in conjuction with diplomatic, political and economic instruments of power, achieve the goal of an independent and free Iraq. History will count the articulation of this strategy as a turning point in the Iraqi conflict. On to victory!
December 1st, 2005 at 3:21 pmearl – did you pull that straight off the whitehouse.propaganda site? or is that some excellent sarcasm?
December 1st, 2005 at 3:37 pmHaving read the document, I think it is offers a solid strategic construct. Before military planners can construct a viable military strategy, political leaders must clearly define their objectives. The administration, finally, has done that. While substantial progress has been made due to the excellent tactical and operational leadership, fine training and dedicated commitment of our soldiers and marines, along with that of our coalition allies and an increasing number of Iraqi forces, with clearly articulated and defined strategic objectives, it will be much easier to devise a viable military strategy.
December 1st, 2005 at 3:42 pmEarl,
December 1st, 2005 at 4:05 pmare you for real?
Clearly define their objectives? Excellent operational leadership? Coalition of our allies?
Try going to whitehouse.gov and do a search for form 666 (how ironic) this site gives you the financial/balance sheet for our country. No where in it does it say were fighting to make america free..it basically says america is in a fiscal spending nightmare.
scratch that last part…. I mean No where in it does it say were fighting to make IRAQ free.. it basically says america is in a fiscal spending nightmare….Hence why we need Iraq’s Oil money
December 1st, 2005 at 4:11 pmif we butt out of everybody’s buisness and 150,000 troops gaurding our borders i would feel safer than i do right now.
December 1st, 2005 at 4:25 pmoh my… i do believe he’s serious. I have a problem with the fact that the administration keeps re-defining who the “enemy” is. I also have a problem with the Bush Administration trying to say anyone who disagrees with them is a terrorist… but i guess you gotta do what ya gotta do to win, right? I guess we’ll just have to wait and see if it works. :/
December 1st, 2005 at 4:27 pmYes. I am very serious. US forces, and those of our coalition allies (words are important, I did not say, “a coalition of our allies”, although Britain is a NATO ally), have done an admirable job both in Afghanistan and Iraq. And do not sell the Iraqis short either. They have made spectacular progress against enormous odds. Now, with clearly defined strategic objectives, the nation, the political leadership and the armed forces can move forward to secure a better future for Iraq and to defeat the terrorist threat. Meanwhile…and this may be part of the problem in maintaining public focus…our economy is doing very well indeed with unemployment at 5-percent and, thanks to tax cuts, growing productivity. Give it up! This is not a war about Iraq’s resources. It is a global struggle against a determined and vicious foe the outcome of which will determine the course of the twenty-first century.
December 1st, 2005 at 4:31 pmYou call killing between 100k and 500k afghani children EXCELLENT!?! you bastard. You’re lucky you’re out of my fist-range mister.
You sir, need to do more research and explore the possibility that your gov’t has lied to you. You also need to scroll up a bit a read my previous posts, as well as most of the others.
Do a search, watch some documentaries, it’ll help you see the truth, whether you like the truth or not will be irrelevant at that point.
find: “9/11: The Great Illusion” and “Loose Change” will do very well… Also, check out Alex Jones’ “9/11: The Road to Tyranny” and/or “The Masters of Terror”
…and ya know what?? Iran’s pres is right about one thing: it is wrong for the U.S. to go around shooting Depleted Uranium at people (especially the innocents caught in crossfire), then go start a war in iraq over non-existant WMD’s… which our OWN MILITARY USES ILLEGALLY!! it’s called HYPOCRISY and it’s just not right.
December 1st, 2005 at 4:48 pmDon’t ya love the way “progressives” react. Name calling, threats, made up figures and citations to the Iranian president. Prozac, Boz.
December 1st, 2005 at 5:01 pmwell sir, what would you call someone who considers slaughtering at least 100,000 (possibly up to 500,000)innocent afghani children “EXCELLENT?” I’m sorry if you feel threatened, but anyone who advocates mass-murdering innocent children SHOULD BE THREATENED!
Also, it doesn’t matter where whoever said what is from… if someone is right, they’re right. U.S. Military knowingly polluted vast amounts of environment with it’s Illegal Depleted Uranium Weapons Fallout. Prozac?? No Thanks… no amount of brain-damaging psychotropic chemicals is going to make me think like YOU, and they DEFINITELY wont make it OK to condone mass murdering innocent people.
December 1st, 2005 at 5:19 pmIn the 60’s, people took acid to make the world weird. Now the world is weird and people take Prozac to make it normal.
December 1st, 2005 at 5:26 pmI think, your use of the phrase, “think like you” is your hangup. No, I don’t feel threatened by you…not by your physical threat about “fist range”…your name calling…i.e. “bastard” or “war criminal”, etc. I did scroll up and look at your rantings. They display an enormous ignorance of weaponry (depleated uranium shells are not illegal and they are used on armored targets, not soft ones) and tactics. You are, however, very solid on using absolutely inane conspiracy theories, I’ll give you that. I’m surprised, “The New Pearl Harbor” didn’t make it into your “research.”
December 1st, 2005 at 5:28 pmHere we go again… another bush supporter, who promotes, advocates and condones mass-murdering innocent people. DU munitions contain radioactive metals. When DU artillery hits a target, it vaporizes spreading radioactive dust throughout the area. Maybe i’m wrong, maybe DU munitions are not “technically illegal” but i’m not sure, and they should be. The fact that our own military has been spreading toxic radioactive waste all over the globe, then starting a war based on non-existant WMD’s is a terrible testament to our governments hypocrisy. I know DU isn’t as toxic or radioactive as Refined Uranium, but STILL… it’s bad stuff. Hard, Soft… what’s the difference? people get killed and radioactive material spreads all over the place either way you slice it.
Also, yes… i did neglect to mention the “New Pearl Harbor” thing… which is exactly what 9/11 was, whether you like it or not. Again, a conspiracy “theory” is only a “theory” until evidence is identified. Evidence has been identified, it is now a full blown Conspiracy.
December 1st, 2005 at 6:10 pm“Here we go again…” That pretty well summarizes your curcuitious arguing. You create a fantasy world of mass murder (no where have I mentioned “excellence in mass murder” and really ignorant stuff like “spreding toxic radioactive waste all over the world” then build your argument based on your fantasies. You really do live in a parallel paranoid universe where conspiracy theories reign. In a way, of course, you do us (I am a Bush supporter and retired military man turned professor) a favor. As long as you folks are out there, we win.
December 1st, 2005 at 6:22 pm“Yes. I am very serious. US forces, and those of our coalition allies (words are important, I did not say, “a coalition of our alliesâ€, although Britain is a NATO ally), have done an admirable job both in Afghanistan and Iraq.” – Earl Tilford
The bold part is where you praised mass murdering of innocents, whether you were aware or not, that happened.
You are just like all other blind bush supporting mouthpieces… always trying to spin the truth and twist our words. I said “here we go again” because that’s all you bush supporters do… repeat the same tired ass rhetoric and vague talking points. And guess what? Bush and his supporters are continually unable or unwilling to answer simple, straight-forward questions about there possible involvement in this global conspiracy. Why don’t they just let us see the confiscated video and photos and answer the damn questions? I’ll tell you why… they not only knew about 9/11, they not only allowed it to happen, they MADE it HAPPEN. The fact that they have gone out of their way to NOT answer specific questions, and have deliberately inhibited investigations, fabricated and destroyed crucial incriminating evidence, only adds to our suspicion and subtracts from their credibility.
I didn’t create 9/11, you’re beloved administration did (unless CIA, NSA, FBI did it without telling Bush and Admin). I know i didn’t imagine hiroshima and nagasaki (and yes i know that wasn’t bush either)… i know i didn’t imagine the proof of the trinity experiment and many other nuclear weapons tests on our own soil. Also, i am aware that other nations have also engaged in “spreading radioactive toxic waste” all over the globe as our own.
These are not MY fantasies, these are the fantasies of the power hungry fascist global elite, and they have become reality through underhandedness and subversion. My fantasies involve living a long, happy, productive, peaceful life, procreating, and having the right to discover the truth about all things. My fantasies have nothing to do with the New World Order, or Total Global Domination. I wish those things you call fantasies really were, but the truth will become evident to even the most obtuse, bush-loving disinformationalist mouthpieces, as well as the rest of the world, soon enough. I hope you’re right. I hope i’m wrong. We shall see… well, some of us will.
December 1st, 2005 at 6:56 pm1. Lie about WMD’s.
2. Invade a soveriegn state that did not attack us.
3. Lie about lying about persecuting those who did not lie
about WMD’s.
4. Torture, to the death if neccessary.
5. Use phosphorus militarily against mixed opposition/
civilian targets the same way the previous power
replaced used phosphorus against mixed opposition/
civilian targets.
6. “Accidentally” kill Arabian reporters that do not
support your agenda.
7. Publish propaganda in an attempt to manipulate the
the local population.
8. Label local resistance as “insurgents”.
9. Retain your own populace as mercinaries against their
will after the contract for their services has expired.
10.Devise and present a “plan” that is not clearly measur-
able only as a transparent reply to provide talking
points to continue the disinformation that to this
junction has worked to a T.
The origional ten-point plan.
December 1st, 2005 at 6:59 pmperhaps if this war had been justified on the basis that iraq was a clear and present threat to the borders of the us, then thinking citizens could tolerate the sacrifice of american life and limb for this war.
as the situation stands, the rationale for attacking iraq remains a patchwork of distortions (quantity and magnitude of WMD) and lies (that iraq worked in tandem with al quaeda) that continues to unravel. it’s of some comfort that american service men and women are beginning to ask openly, ‘why are we in iraq?’
December 1st, 2005 at 10:57 pmEarl,
You gotta read the President’s speech and get the new lingo, buddy. We’re not fighting terrorists, principally, any more in Iraq — we’re fighting rejectionists. –REJECTIONISTS.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:09 pmHere’re the words, straight from the Chimp: “The enemy in Iraq is a combination of rejectionists, Saddamists and terrorists. The rejectionists are by far the largest group. These are ordinary Iraqis, mostly Sunni Arabs, who miss the privileged status they had under the regime of Saddam Hussein — and they reject an Iraq in which they are no longer the dominant group.”
Rejectionists — Muslims rejecting an invading force of Christian fundamantalists. It’s not really surprising behavior, is it? Particularly when we drop 500 pund bombs on them and burn them up with napalm and white phosphorous, and blow them away with 50 caliber at random checkpoints. Kind of what we’d do if the shoe were on the other foot, don’t you agree?
Usually I treat comments in a post respectively, but I can’t help but laugh at these posts. Don, you say most of the insurgents are “rejectionists” and Sunni Arabs. Well actually, you agree with the statement to that effect by George Bush. Using George Bush to support you argument. Ironic. So, if the insurgents are mostly Sunni Arabs, and Sunni Arabs make up only around 20% of the population of Iraq, what does that make the other 80% of the population? Supporters of an “invading force of Christian fundamantalists?” Do we disregard the Iraqis who voted for a new Constitution and will go to the polls again soon? And Don, in an earlier post you said, “We settled things with our civil war without outside infuence, let the Iraqis work it out. It’s their country, not ours.” Actually, foreign nations were involved in our Civil War (selling supplies, weapons. For example, in the Confederacy’s case, buying ships from Great Britain.) And, are you that cold hearted? Would you like to see Iraq spin into the chaos of a civil war for the sake of seeing Bush fall? “It’s their country, not ours.” You sound like a far-right isolationist. It’s over there so it does not concern us. As for all of the other comments, you others stick to the Republican line: All Democrats do is carp and offer no solutions. Hmmmm… there is some truth in talking points.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:59 amokay fellas, I’, back. First, I must say that I got a couple honest answers that tried to answer my question and did so in an intelligent manner. I appreciate that. You guys are a credit to the left. Well done. Some others I won’t dignify with a remark.
Here’s my answer to “what would happen if we pulled out of Iraq immediately”. I’ll keep it simple: Terrorists would claim victory. There is NO WAY that a withdrawal would not be seen as a validation of terrorism. It would prove that a protracted terrorist campaign can force the United States to it’s knees and compell us to change our foreign and domestic policies. Bad stuff. Second, Iraq would degenerate into a civil war, which the new government would win, that is until the Syrians and Iran would get involved and Iraq would end up a Shiite Islamic Theocracy. That’s not too good for the rest of the world. Third, if terrorism can force 120,000 soldiers out of Iraq, then forcing 18,000 out of Afghanistan would be a piece of cake. Every jihadist and terrorist wanna-be would head straight through Iran (with their blessing and materiel support) to Afghanistan and wratchet up the violence there to an enormous degree, forcing us to withdraw from Aghanistan as well. Fourth, Iran would go full-steam ahead developing their nukes. With no one with the stomach to stop them or do anything about it (the European effort was as effective as Neville Chamberlain’s negotiations with Hitler) they have nothing standing in their way. Now…we’ve got Iran actively supporting terrorism across the world against Americans, only THIS time, doing it openly. Because after all, we won’t do anything about it. Now, they’ll have nuclear weapons, ensuring their own safety (the cover story). But who in their right mind can possibly doubt that if Iran obtains nuclear weapons, they won’t be used? C’mon, within a milisecond and a bright flash of light, Tel Aviv will cease to exist. New York or LA or Washington DC or even St Louis would probably follow withing a few minutes. No one would be afraid to wage terrorism on the US. because after all, we just signaled to the world that we don’t have the stomach for a fight.
This war’s beginnings will be debated for years to come. As a soldier and US Army Officer, I honestly don’t care why it began or even if Bush lied/misled. It doesn’t matter now. Politics aren’t the first thing on your mind when you’re being shot at. What the debate should be about now, is the best way to win. If you disagree with the war, then you’re expressing your free opinion that was granted to you by the blood and efforts of the United States Army (and yes, I’m talking about our European guests in here, too).
for Don…man, I don’t know where to begin. Trust me, the changes in Iraq are enormous. You should have seen what life was like for them when we first rolled into Baghdad in April of 2003, then take a look now. Part of the frustration of every soldier on the ground there has been that the media just doesn’t report good news. It’s absolutely infuriating. It doesn’t matter how many hospitals, schools, town halls, sewer systems, sanitation, plumbing, or electric generators and relay stations you install. It doesn’t matter that the Iraqi’s have a free press for the first time in their history. But…let one American soldier slip on a banana peel, and our whole mission is called into question. Soldiers will tell you a very different story of Iraq. That story rarely gets out. But just occassionally, it leaks. And please don’t call into question our military leadership. It’s the finest in the world. I worked for (then) Brigadier General Dempsey while in Iraq, and I’ll tell you that he was a fine man, great soldier, and a fantastic leader who tolerated NO shennanigans or abuse, crimes, or maltreatment of the Iraqis for any reason. We do not torture. We do not abuse. Secrets like that would be hard to keep and they would get out in a big way. I get sick to my stomach when people demostrate time and again how quickly they are willing believe the very worst they hear about the military. The bigger the lie it seems, the more the public will believe. It doesn’t matter when the truth comes out, our name will never be cleared in the media with the same fever pitch which with it was attacked. Finally Don…please, for the love of GOD, don’t interfere with potential new recruits. If you repsect the military and support the troops, then take your wrath out on the republican party at the polls in november. Don’t take it out on us. We are already having trouble making out enlistment goals. My section is short two soldiers. By blocking new recruits, you only force some soldier somewhere in Iraq, to do the job of TWO soldiers. It means that someone in a firefight won’t have someone to cover his back. It doesn’t hurt the President. It doesn’t hurt the neocons, and it damn sure doesn’t hurt you. It hurts me. It hurts my soldiers. It lowers our morale because it signals to us that some people back home are putting us in needless danger to hurt the Bush administration. There’s enough danger in Iraq without people back home forcing us to be short-handed.
Okay. I’ll close with one statement. I hear time and again from some liberal friends of mine that “we support the troops, but oppose the war”. My response is, “how can you say you support me, yet simultaneously want me to lose a war?”
Mike
December 2nd, 2005 at 5:19 amMike and MNJOSH:
I agree, there are some intelligent and articulate folks on the left and it is always stimulating to discuss matters with them. Then there are those with whom these kinds of things are the intellectual equivalent of Penn State’s varsity football team taking on Slippery Rock’s thrid string B-team. It can be fun, but when someone claims that “100,000 to 500,000 Afghan children” have been killed by US forces, cites the Iranian leadership as a source on anything serious and whose major source of “facts” is conspiracy theorists…it’s still fun, but also pitiful.
They do us a favor, however. The left generally holds the American public in contempt. They don’t understand that people see through wild statements like “an invading force of Christian fundamentalists” is being rejected by Iraqis. If that were so, the terrorists and jihaddists in Iraq would not be focused on attacking Iraqi citizens. Their targets would be almost exclusively US/Coalition forces and not primarily mosques, restaurants, etc.
When the opposition thinks “F— you!” is an arguing point, it’s not hard to win. So, thank the good Lord for bozos like “INFURIATED BY DUBYA?NEOCONS”.
Finally, what I get out of these websites is useful the “National Security” class I teach. Right now we are focused on the “War on Terror.” In fact, today’s lesson focuses on issues attendant to “torture” and accusations of torture.
Have a good one. “Praise the Lord and keep your powder dry.” (Oliver Cromwell)
V/r
E T
December 2nd, 2005 at 6:55 amMike, here’s the Belgian again. You say a system with 7 parties is a recipe for gridlock…. and a system with two major parties is not?! Your comments aren’t making sense to anyone who ever went to university. Why ask the question what would happen when America pulls back from Iraq? Why not ask the question why American troops are in Iraq at all? I know why…. the answer would cause your thinking to re-arrange because it is either one of the following three: 1. “no idea whatsoever” – 2. “lies” – 3. “oil & money”. Here ’s another recap of the Bush-years: give or take 15 Saudi-Arabians hi-jack planes and fly them into the WTC, Bush and Average America want revenge. Bush blames Afghanistan. All of the sudden, he wants Iraq’s (non-existing) WMD…. What started as a war on terror ended as a hunt for money and oil.
December 2nd, 2005 at 7:30 amHere, again, we see flawed assumptions as the departure point for making the argument. The first assumption, that the administration “had no idea what it was doing” is the best of the lot, but even then only partially defensible. The second, “lies” and “oil and the third, “oil and money” are standard far left fare but also wrong. Then the argument proceeds to the administration attacking Afghanistan to get revenge for 9/11—presumably rather than attacking Saudi Arabia sincce 15 of 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudis. Both are stawman arguments. First, the administration did not “attack Afghanistan”. US and Coalition forces worked with the Northern Alliance to overthrow the Taliban government which played host to al Qaeda. Second, the nationality of the hijackers did not matter. What matters was that they were all members of al Qaeda, which had declared war on the US in February 1998 with Osama bin Laden’s “Fatwa against Jews and Crusaders.” Fact was, their headquarters at the time was in Afghanistan, so attacking Afghanistan to get to them was legitimate.
Mike, see how much fun this is!
ET
December 2nd, 2005 at 7:52 am[...] Read Paul Hackett’s statement on the “Victory Plan” announced a couple days ago, specifically the “BACKGROUND” bullet points. Then go read the Think Progress link at the bottom of the statement…they are exactly the same bullet points. [...]
December 2nd, 2005 at 10:19 amHello All:
I have just read all of the posts on this site…
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:10 pmWhat strikes me most is how DIVIDED this “war” has made us. I have my opinions about the “war” in Iraq and the current congress and administration and they are very negative; but I feel powerless to do anything about them. Yet I go to work every day and pay my taxes, which most of go to defense and military spending, for which I have no approval of at all. When does this stop? How many years will it take before the american people rise up and take a stand? Do we have to have a revolution?
I’m not saying that everything that has happened over the last two years has been rosey red, but for the life of me I have yet to see a comparison of the dollar cost of this war to the dollar cost of containing that maniac (Hussain) from 1991 thru 2003. When compared to the cost of a perpetual stand-off, isn’t it cheaper in the long run to remove the problem?
Even if the end result isn’t 100% pro USA, isn’t stopping the 4,000 per year slaughter of internal “enemys of the state” worth it. These were people who sometimes did nothing more than be born in the wrong region or to the wrong parents. We did the same job in Kosovo but, culturally speaking, the indigenous poeple understood both what we were trying to do and what we wanted to leave behind. Most middle easterners have never had a better way of life, and aren’t sure they want it. Since almost everything in our culture violates the predominate religion of the area, most of the people do not trust us or want us there, no matter what our intentions or methods are.
Now, IF WE LEAVE, what happens to the people? Another Somolia? What a sad, sad fate for the cradle of human civilization. To be dominated by whatever madman or tribe can bring the most, biggest guns to the table. To leave at this point would be more of an insult than any suffered to this point. What Saddam did before would be but a single grain of sand in the hourglass of religious and racial horrors to follow.
Some may scoff at this next remark and I will understand but a single man with Saddam’s personal strength and character provided the stability within that country to build one of the region’s most modern and capable governments. Of course the same might be said of Hitler in the 1920s and 30s Eurpoe. How do we replace what we have already taken away? We HAVE to stay until it’s done. Until there is a government in place that can rule with not only authority but compassion. Where the people not only recieve, but expect basic human rights. In short, we must stay until a cultural change is effected. To do anything less would be nothing short of criminal.
What we seem to be looking for is a way out might be something that is beyond the ability of any person to give us. A way out from where we stand is more than any single plan can provide. Instead of blaming our government (the GOP) for our current problems we should be offering REAL solutions. NOT “just pull out and they’ll work it out themselves,” because THEY CAN’T. THEY DON’T KNOW HOW!
Anyone can play the blame game. Intelligent people don’t care about blame. They work for the solution.
December 2nd, 2005 at 7:49 pmEarl T –
Iranian leadership wasn’t my source. I simply cited him because i knew his remarks about US chemical weapons had been in the news recently and you had probably been inadvertantly subjected to such knowledge. I know someone like you would never actually TRY to find out of such a thing had been happening, it just-so-happened that he made a statement concerning just that recently.
Here is my source:
http://cseserv.engr.scu.edu/StudentWebPages/IPesic/ResearchPaper.htm
i forgot where i found the original link to this…
How very respectable… you like arguing with people you believe to be an “easy win?” you haven’t won yet buddy. I’ll take back the bastard remark… and i re-thought the “fist-range” remark too. You’re not a “bastard” as i’m pretty sure you know your father. In real life, i wouldn’t just haul-off and start a fist-fight just because you didn’t know about a bunch of dead innocent people. People praise things they don’t know are bad all the time. I guess i’m just pissed off because people who are pro-war refuse to accept the possibility that their own gov’t is lying to them. These military people should be the MOST concerned about whether their cause is JUST.
Also, it’s obvious to me that not all military personnel are “christian fundamentalists,” but many are.
My comment about “100K dead innocents” is as unbelievable and pathetic to you as “there is no conspiracy” is to me.
The REAL conspiracy “theory” here is that “hijackers crashed planes into buildings.” That “theory” has far more holes and FAR LESS EVIDENCE than the “conspiracy truth” that i have mentioned. 9/11 WAS THE NEW PEARL HARBOR, BUSH HELPED IT HAPPEN. HE WAS DEFINITELY NOT THE ONLY ONE. When i mentioned a few high-level agencies having involvement, i didn’t mean “everyone” in those organizations were involved, because some of them have been fired for EXPOSING THE TRUTH. Many people in those organizations, and others who have spoken out trying to expose more pieces of the “9/11 puzzle” have “disappeared” or died under strange or bizarre circumstances. Flight 77 was a MILITARY JET FROM RATHEON, Flight 93 was SHOT DOWN BY ANOTHER MILITARY CRAFT. Both twin towers flights, 11 and 175, were NOT WHAT THEY APPEARED TO BE. Much of the “official facts” are impossible. Many important questions have been REFUSED ANSWERS! Evidence was Fabricated, REAL evidence was quickly removed and much was destroyed. No one is allowed access to any of the remaining, unexamined evidence.
WHY? WHAT ARE THEY AFRAID WE’LL FIND?
When those questions are answered… when that evidence is examined… when the WHOLE COMPLETE TRUTH IS KNOWN… WE WILL THEN KNOW THAT THE “9/11 COMMISION REPORT” IS THE REAL “CONSPIRACY THEORY”
December 3rd, 2005 at 7:05 amNever ceases to amaze me how today’s liberals are so willfully ignorant of history.
Does anyone here actually know how long US troops had to be in Japan or Germany after WWII? Is anyone here at ALL aware that we’re having many of the same problems in Iraq that we had then?
Nothing like trying to win a war in the ‘instant gratification’ era. Seems libs think wars should be won and the world turned over practically instantly, or else it’s a totally botch-up
And for those who continue to beat the drum of “iraq had nothing to do with 9-11″. I would actually again ask — does your memory begin this morning? Did you actually LISTEN to the arguments for the war in Iraq? Because there’s a lot of apparently willful forgetfulness going on.
Let me try to say this really loudly for the libs whose memories start fresh each day:
BUSH NEVER, EVER LIMITED THE WAR ON TERROR TO PUNISHING DIRECT PERPETRATORS OF 9-11.
Wow. Astonishing revelation, isn’t it? Everyone seems to think that Bush somehow promised to only go after 9-11 related groups, when in fact he said right after 9-11 that he was going to wage war on worldwide terror. Funny how his approval ratings were so high back when he said he was going to do that, but so low now that he actually is doing it and *gasp* it turns out to be harder than the internet generation wanted it to be.
I’m just getting tired of people with short or selective memories because so much of their brains are built on their own irrational hatred of Bush that they have no room left to actually keep context in their head.
Randy
December 3rd, 2005 at 8:21 am‘Strategy’ is defined as “The science and art of using all the forces of a nation to execute approved plans as effectively as possible during peace or war.”
A ‘Plan’ is defined as “A scheme, program, or method worked out beforehand for the accomplishment of an objective: a plan of attack.”
This document does not fit either of these definitions.
Therefore, I can only conclude that it fits the following definition:
“The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.”
Joseph Goebbels was very effective in using this type of information.
December 3rd, 2005 at 9:39 amRandy and Mike,
The logic of your arguments, suggests that the Iraq adventure was motivated by genuine US security concerns.
That is crap actually.
Remember Gulf War #1 and all those T 55s burnt out in the desert, the great Turky Shoot (hardie ha ha!) and all the rest of it! Iraq was hamstrung by sanctions, and the US had total air superiority and used those no-fly zones as well as actually blowing shit up they didn’t like at will. Even real targets, like AA missiles sometimes, except when they missed and wasted some goats, or some Iraqis.
Iraq could not even pose or project a conventional weapons threat. All Saddam had was nasty rhetoric, he didn’t pose a threat, even to his supposed target, Israel, (and never mind they have megatonnes of their own very real illegal WMDs, but we do trust the Israelis -no sarcasm- so that is ok! )
Wolverwitz and those other pea brains cooked it all up out of over-fertile imaginations. Saddam is a real prick, agreed, he would have loved to nuke Israel, agreed. However if you want to nominate some other pricks, how about your good friends, those saints of democratic principle, the Saudi royals, or even some individual Israeli officers that teach their snipers to shoot civilians. Don’t see too many of them being arrested by the US military!
The world sucks! Why? Mostly because leaders like the USA are so F#### inconsistent in their declarations of what is right and what is wrong. If your country wasn’t so F$#%@$%$ hypocritical, cynical, and inconsistent in its moral definitions we would be closer to having a real international law already instead of this damned everyman for himself jungle.
How the F*&^ do we get to have the regime of Saudi Arabia except that it is in bed with your leadership and has been for years. We don’t criticise people with oil, they can even publically cut the heads off women who have an affair, and we won’t blink but we send death squads to kill shoe-less peasants if they talk about nationalising natural resources, that actually do belong to everyone? What’s that, supporting two kinds of murder, and for no more reason more than to support an ideology that actually disenfranchises most of the world’s people from our commonly shared wealth? Man, I’m glad you have something to believe in. Too bad, it’s not nearly as nice in reality as it is in the fantasy of your minds.
Man I hate Castro, but I’m starting to sound like him!
Please do go on and explain the necessity of the anti communist death squads in central America and all the other lovely details while you are at it, because there is quite a history of this garbage. Sure Iraq sound a lot better than just training and arming thugs that murder people, but what is this we are starting to hear about the new Iraqi security forces? I’m gonna be sick already!
“Freedom” sounds great. But its hard to sell to most of the world, since most of the world can’t afford shit.
I am curious how you view the regime in North Korea, and its beligerant rhetoric and clear possesion of WMD’s. Also how you view Iran, which clearly intends to get nukes and feels justified in doing so by the Israeli precedent, not to mention being 100% on the side of terrorists, and much more than that anti-religious Saddam ever was. Osama is probably camping out in Iran even, so like if you ever want to have another war, which is like actually connected to 9/11 like the rest of us can’t wait to be amused by how that turns out!
AndI’m real curious as to your patriotic and freedom loving solutions for these problems. Your argument for the Iraq adventure would perhaps imply that we should do the same again?????????
Or would that be just too F*%^&$ing stupid, since this first adventure has already proven that the idea was not only wrong but the entire rhetoric justifying it is just a pack of BULLDUST!
I think the real situation is much simpler! Brown skins kill US citizens (mostly brown too as it turns out). White power centre kills severl times more brown skins in tribal revenge! And so on.
If you go ahead and just nuke “them” before they nuke “you”, you could save a whole lot of complicated justification and argument. Too bad I would probably get melted as well, since I live near the border with North Korea, but hey, lots of little folk get fried when the US cooks a chicken! That will teach em to not be living in Texas!
And I am hoping you can explain while you are winning your arguments, exactly how jittery GI’s shooting up civilians in minivans and all the rest of that shit that happens, is doing the great cause of Freedom any good. Or how it does those GIs any good, since the poor bastards got to live with that.
If that happened to your family and mine, and you weren’t lining up to avenge it, then that would be funny!
Arguing as you do, for the logic of your own imagined “culture”, If you guys were Iraqis you would be setting road side bombs. That’s just the way it is.
I’d like to question why you steadfastly fail to mention your national administration. Can you explain why Wolverwitz, Powell, Ari Fleischer and others have all left the scene?
I think your concerns about the future world security, or at least the US place in the status quo, may be well-based.
Many of we non-Americans do not hate America, but we are concerned about the state of your government and social institutions. The US federal deficit represents a source of great uncertainty for the economic prospects of all of us on this planet.
I further invite you to reflect on the personal competence of your comander in chief, from time to time, as his competence to lead is at issue here, and it’s something that you seem keen to avoid.
Curious too, if you want to call Saudi Arabia a friend of America, and explain all the evil regimes that the US has backed over the years incuding mr Devil, Saddam himself.
All the fine rhetoric is horsehit actually. Fact is that REALPOLITIC rules. North Korea is miles worse than Iraq, but why is there no war there? I wish there was more to it than there being no oil in North Korea. To be sure we really wish it ain’t that simple, but the real horror is maybe it is that simple!
Tantrum
December 3rd, 2005 at 12:35 pmGee Tantrum. You must live in a world full of hate. While the spittle of hatred of all that is American dribbles from your lips, keep in mind that if not for patriotic Americans like me, that last rant of your would have been in German. Or would not have been at all.
Oh, and for the gentlemen who asked why not question why we’re in Iraq in the first place….my answer is simple. Because we’re already there, and you can’t unscramble eggs. We have only to go forward. reverse has too dire of consequences.
Too bad you are filled with such distrust and are so willing to believe the absolute worst about the American military and American leadership. Too bad, that in your world you don’t seem to understand that countries have interests. And those interests will be protected.
Why do we not get rid of Isreali WMDs? Simple. Because they won’t be used against Americans. Why do we not knock off North Korea? Just wait a few years. Japan and South Korea will do a handy job of it themselves. Why do we not knock off Iran? Patience. We’re getting there. Before they aquire nukes, I’m confident the Isrealis will overfly Iraq to bomb that site back into the stone age. Hell, we might even refuel their planes over Iraq.
Earl…good to see you’re keeping your fight up. I think the anti-war crowd’s concerns are genuine and real, but I also feel they’re quite beguiled with their hatred of our President. They’ve never fought in Iraq nor had to deal with someone who’s trying to kill them. Never entered a dark room with a loaded weapon and never had to put a human being in their sites and squeeze the trigger. They have the luxury of monday-morning-quarterbacking the war. Must be nice.
Anyone who’s ever dealt with terrorists, had to look them in the eye, and had to fight them knows; They’re getting exactly what they deserve. After you arrest them or even capture them wounded after a firefight, they often want to pretend it didn’t happen or that they really didn’t mean to hurt us. They often realize they made a mistake in judgement when attacking American soldiers and didn’t quite think through the consequences. Well, like I told many a terrorist: you play with matches, you will get burned. Don’t think you can shoot at me and I won’t try to kill you in return. I feel no pity for those who would kill me, my family, and yes, even anti-war liberals (as those captured anti-war peace-workers in Iraq are now learning).
Never forget gentlemen: People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their part.
Mike
December 4th, 2005 at 11:41 amMike ure so desensitized by american bs. Yes this is a very
December 4th, 2005 at 6:52 pmfree and rich country but its always been at the expense of someone like mexicans who get paid shit and live in dumpsters so we can make profits i mean are u really proud of that american ideology im not. We have installed facists
governments in south america that kill workers who want pay so they can feed their children are u proud of ur america for that too. Are government has killed hundreds of thousands of children in iraq hmmm i wonder why so many people in the middle east hate us de de de its of that u ignorant fool. Israel has deystroyed millions of palestinian homes and they don’t give anything back hmmm i wonder why they blow themselves up. American gun manufacturers and many other governments like france have given millions of dollars of weopens to the middle east and we funded sadamm hussein with the chemical weopens he used on his people we did nothing after that. Hmmm i wonder who ffedd up all these third world countries peoples lives is it america of course not no way!
Oh yes, and Mike… When someone says they “support our troops, but not the war” that DOES NOT MEAN THEY WANT YOU TO LOSE. What it means is that we want to find an alternate option. We want an option that involves NO MORE DEAD TROOPS. Yes, we realize this is impossible during WAR, which is exactly why we want it to END. Is it news to anyone that the CIA does one thing, and tells us another? This is what is happening. There are other agencies involved, but with so much obfuscation of the truth, and so much misinformation and pro-war propaganda saturating society, who could possibly know what is really happening but the people who make it all possible?
December 4th, 2005 at 9:03 pmThat Guy,
Wow…I wonder where you get your data. “Our government killing hundreds of thousands of children in Iraq”???
Quit watching Al Jazeera and you might learn the facts. Don’t quote BS to me again until you’ve served in this war, buddy.
INFURIATED, if we pull out our troops now, how is that not a loss?? I was there when Paul Bremer pulled the Marines out of fallujah early. Let me tell you…they’re still pi$$ed about getting a knife in their back. And predictably, as a result, they had to go back again and deal with it all over again. The bottom line is that people like you DON’T support the troops. You will use any means necessary to hurt the Bush administration, and if that means a few more dead American soldiers, then that’s fine with you as long as it meets your goals. Don’t insult me like that again. I’ve heard enough of that garbage from people far more intelligent from you, and it didn’t fool me then, either.
Mike
December 5th, 2005 at 2:24 amWhat does this look like u ignorant moron.
December 5th, 2005 at 2:12 pmIf u want i can probably put up a thousand dead children from this war
December 5th, 2005 at 2:13 pmI was in the actual war in Iraq…Desert Storm, where we had an actual declaration of war. We pulled out of there without dragging in on like a world police action. This is a war on terror (like a war on drugs) that we just CANNOT win. So what does it matter if we pull out troops out NOW!! We are staying because Iraq is the #2 supplier of OIL in the world. Just follow the trail of money and you will almost always find corruption at the top of the food chain. MONEY = POWER and most people that have lots of money just want more power!!! And people that have power will never admit they are wrong.
December 5th, 2005 at 3:47 pmThat Guy,
I fail to see exactly how those kids were killed by American soldiers. What a doofus you are. Do you get your news from al Jazeerah? I can pull ANY image off the internet. You really need to think about what you’re saying before you open your mouth. I’ll bet you my meager military paycheck that those kids were killed by terrorists (that’s IF those are Iraqi kids, and IF those photos were not taken more than three years ago, and IF they weren’t killed by Saddam’s boys). Holy Sh!t, grow up.
Do you honestly THINK that American soldiers go around targeting civilians? Let me tell you something, hippie…we go to EXTRAORDINARY lengths to avoid civilian casualties. Even put ourselves in great danger to do so. I have personally seen a patrol avoid returning fire coming from a mosque’s minaret because there were civilians in the line of fire. These boys even ran out into the street to carry wounded civilians to safety. Risking their own lives.
Hey I’ve got an idea. Since you hate America so much, and you wish to see us lose, and you’re rooting for terrorists, why not go to Iraq and JOIN the insurgency? You’d actually put your money where your mouth is. I might actually respect your opinion of American soldiers and your viewpoint of the war. Too bad you won’t. Because I’ll be there next fall and I’d just LOVE to run into you in a firefight.
Mike
December 6th, 2005 at 3:25 ammike -
December 6th, 2005 at 10:15 pmYou obviously missed the point. How dare you say i don’t care about our troops dying. I’m the one who disagrees with the reason we’re there. If 9/11 was clear, cut-and-dry, it would be different, but it wasn’t. There are plenty of reasons and plenty of evidence to suspect that certain ELEMENTS of our government planned and carried out 9/11. If you choose not to see it, I can’t do anything about your choice. But do not claim that more US troop deaths is “fine” by us. I am not “left” or “right.” Both are arms from the same monster/machine. I believe there is an even more sinister reason than “oil” or “money” or “power” behind this whole mess. I’ll leave it up to you to figure out for yourself, but know this, that statement about not caring about US troops dying was absurd and reprehensible, and i hope you see the truth someday.
He he, you guys really crack me up. I think it’s amusing that you’re guising your cowardice with patriotism. It’s very easy to defend tyranny and terrorism while living in freedom, isn’t it? Don’t try to give me that standard line about how “brave” the protestors are, and how the TRUE patriots are the ones against this war. What a load of bull. The true patriots are in uniform or are supporting our troops. When will you ever come to the realization that the price of defeat is far greater than the price of victory. But then again, you’ve never been to Iraq or ever put on a uniform. And as for the brainwashing thing…your NAVY dad told you what Army basic was like?!?! Get a life. Quit watching X-files reruns and move out of your parent’s basement. If you’ve got FACTS you’d like to debate, bring it on. If you’re just going to spout conspiracy theories and al jazeerah, take it someplace else.
Mike
December 7th, 2005 at 4:39 amMike, Mike, Mike, stop listening to Dick brains. The US is fighting Iraq for Weapons Of Mass Destruction. THAT was the terrorist treath Bush lied about. There was no smoking gun. Still Bush thought he could bomb the *** out of those civilians because they scare his supporters. He bombs their cities with radioactive bombs, causing nuclear proliferation where he says he wants to prevent it. He blasted the center of Baghdad back to the stone age and now he’s going to rebuild it and make some more money by awarding contracts? Clearly, you have no clue about history, Iraq, the US, politics or reality. US politics are messier than the war on so-called terrorism, let alone watergate. The war on terrorism is a mockery and supporters of Bush’s war are the ones least concerned with the actual safety of the planet. Unless you know, I repeat, KNOW something about the subject, shut up. The US has broken more international laws in 4 Bushyears than an Iraqi with a degree in chemistry can break in a lifetime.
December 7th, 2005 at 7:18 amoh my god stfu mike the coast guard goes through the same boot camp as the army what does this day u facist hypocrite http://usmilitary.about.com/od/cgjoin/l/aacgbasic1.htm
December 7th, 2005 at 12:12 pmI don’t think your even in the military i think ur some facist liar institued by the government to lie and put up facist interventionists principles and to make people think killing and murder is ok along with racist principle ya its ok to kill muslims i mean look at them their probably made of toweling any way im sure thats the way u think facist retard whos lying about being even in the military.
go eat ur own sh7t
December 7th, 2005 at 12:13 pmThat Guy,
December 8th, 2005 at 10:56 amWhassa matter? I got you so mad that you can’t speak in complete sentences? I guess the truth hurts a little too much for you, eh?
Hey Jericho,
December 8th, 2005 at 10:56 amBefore you shove your entire foot down your throat, YES, I do know exactly what I am talking about. I am a Captain in the United States Army, and spent over 15 months in Baghdad with the 1st Armored Division. Let’s say you and I take a ride sometime and you can show me just where Baghdad was bombed back into the stone age. Radioactive bombs? We don’t even have those, you fool. Are you for real? Are you sure you’re not really my friend Andy pulling my leg?
This is the most pathetic liberal forum I have ever seen, and I’ve seen plenty. You people are so sad and pathetic. You couldn’t find as many losers at a trekkie convention. I was really hoping to come to this forum and find an honest, intellectual debate on the war. I’m now convinced that you all don’t have it in you. Some of you can’t even talk in complete sentences, much less type that way. How pathetic and yet typical.
The bottom line is that liberalism is a disease of the mind. It offers nothing but emotional responses to complex problems. It’s propensity to offer the easiest way out of a problem never ceases to amaze me. The shame to which liberals will sink to cater to the lowest common intellectual denominator is outstripped only by the speed with which they do it. Let me put this in “geek terms†that you can all understand…liberalism is like the dark side of the force; quicker, easier, and more seductive, requiring no discipline or self-control, blaming others for misfortune and offering only the quickest knee-jerk emotional response to any given situation. What depresses me is that liberals are so self-righteous, yet offer nothing in the way of solutions or fixes. All they offer is rhetoric and propaganda with slick-a$$, fast food, easy answers. Anything to get re-elected, and they’re not even good at THAT! And yet you liberals stare in dismay every time the republicans win another election. Will it never dawn on you just WHY the conservatives have won every national election for the last ten years?
But that’s not what really kills me. Not the liberal whining, geek-laden conspiracy theories, or the never-ending bitching. Not the endless tirade of hypocrisy, or even the complete lack of moral values. What truly disgusts me more than anything is your hatred of your own country and its military. The very military that gave you your right to open your filthy sewer of a mouth and denigrate the armed services. What cowards you all are. If you think Bush is a fascist, try the Ayatollah. If you think America is reprehensible and oppressive, try living in your little Islamic wonderland for a few years. If you think American run detention facilities suck, try detention at the hands of our enemies. But this escapes you. You, who sleep in your beds at night and have little wet-dreams of a “President Kerryâ€, completely unaware that your very safety is provided by those you hate the most. It’s hard to believe that people like you actually exist. Personally, I’d like you all to go to Iraq and join the insurgency so that we can be rid of you, too. Killing two birds with one stone. Why is it so hard for you libs to admit that you WANT us to lose this war? Why can’t you admit it? Why not admit that you are invested in defeat and that losing this war is in the best interest of the democratic national committee? Why can’t you just come out and say that you’d rather lose this war than see the republicans elected again? Is that so hard?
I’m sure that by now you liberals are just foaming at the mouth with hatred for all my “jingoistic†talk. I’m sure you can’t wait to write something spiffy and smart-alecky in return. But alas, that too, will escape you. All I’m going to get for this is more hatred, name-calling and of course, the never-ending cavalcade of liberal bitching.
So long losers. I’m sure you can put down your slice of frozen pizza and quit squeezing your pimples long enough to take up the keyboard and make another feeble attempt at making sense.
“WHY the conservatives have won every national election for the last ten years?” Its because of fraudulent voting machines. Yeah,I just love the idea of corporations owning my right to vote. Plus your not getting the last word so stop trying. Have you ever heard of Ghandi you f*&k Head, but ya lets talk about how thats propaganda when he won independence using non-violence. Plus I hate kerry he did nothing different than Bush, because he talked about reinstuting the draft. Kerry only talked about civil unions wow whooptie f*7kin doo. Kerry was just as neoconservative as Bush and he was boring its sad that are country can’t look to the greens or the Libertarians. Im ashamed of being a citizen of this country.
December 8th, 2005 at 11:55 amPlus u have no humility you can’t take being wrong so you have to conjure up some b*llshit. Most people are what they hate so you’re probably that geek with glasses. Most republicans are basing themselves on bs moral values which everyone drinks and everyone smokes once in their lives so stfu.So what if people like to be gay let people be who they want to be. I think nascar is boring as f*&k i betcha thats your favorite sport ain’t it look its cars going around in circle, which i have more fun watching traffic , but you don’t see me trying to illegalize nascar , and another example fat people are disgusting so why don’t we illegalize being overweight which you probably are. You’re that Eric Cartman whose racist, homophobic, anti-feminist, and you probably hate poor people.
December 8th, 2005 at 12:15 pmHaha, that was even worse than I expected. If you’re so ashamed to be an American, then leave. It’s that simple. There are some folks in Iraq looking for new recruits and I’m sure you’d fit right in. Do you like living in stark rooms with no electricity or indoor plumbing? Do you like bombs and guns? Not in a big way, just enough to know how they basically work. Would you like to get 72 dark-haired virgins? Who knows, even YOU might score!
December 9th, 2005 at 3:50 amAs for being fat, no kiddo…that’s the navy. You know, the branch of service that’s exactly like the Army? The Army doesn’t permit me to look that way, so I have to run and work out and generally you know…have a life. Besides, being fat isn’t real conducive to killing terrorists. And YES, as incomprehensible and grotesque as it is to you, that’s what we do and do proudly. So people like YOU can have a nice day at high school.
Like I said before, the truth just hurts too much for you.
mike, i don’t think you’re superiors would be happy with you advocating and urging americans, who exercise their first amendment right to disagree with republican corruption, to “join the insurgency.” Never once did i say Kerry was any better than bush. They both come from the same source of evil. Democrat, Republican, what does it really matter, when both are more concerned with corporate interests and rhetoric than standing up for the PEOPLE? Bush and Kerry are both “skull & bones.” I don’t want anyone affiliated with elitist secret societies, pushing for a “one world government” or “new world order” to be “running this country.” Although, with our government, there are far more gov’t officials to blame than just the president. I have seen you do far more name-calling than most others in this forum, yet you accuse us of doing that. This is typical neo-con-ism. You do something, then accuse everyone else of doing that, as if you are the supreme righteous perfect being looking down at the rest of us. The only reason American Fascism isn’t YET as bad as in other countries, is because you can’t just thrust sudden drastic change on a population, as they will resist violently. They are slowly changing the “american way” by convincing the “masses” that we need to give up our rights to be “safe.” This EXACT same course was followed in NAZI GERMANY, and had horrendous results. Also, why would you criticize “dems/libs” for not being able to invent a perfect solution for the PROBLEMS CREATED BY REP/NEO-CONS?? Your “beloved leaders” created these problems, and THEY should be obligated to solve them, not the opposition. I believe todays “typical” republicans AND democrats no longer feel obligated to keep the “good of all mankind” in their hearts and minds, and are all really two different types of the same corruption. Again, you erroneously equate “anti-war” with “pro-defeat.” You have urged americans to join the “insurgency” just so you can kill them… JUST BECAUSE THEY DISAGREE WITH YOU! Very immoral sir. Also, those who seek truth cannot be portrayed as the “dark side” in contrast to those you claim to be the “light side” who OBSCURE AND HIDE THE TRUTH! Maybe all that killing and desert heat and depleted uranium munitions fallout has warped your mind and/or impaired your judgement. Maybe it’s all the political brainwashing. Maybe you were just born that way. If your “beloved leaders” have their way, the world may never know the truth, as it will continue to be suppressed and discredited.
Also Mike, i want to thank you personally for fighting for my freedom, and the freedom of the iraqis, even though many of us may disagree with your political opinions, and the reasons for this war. I hope the rest of you come back safe and sound to protect us from our increasingly oppressive gov’t in our approaching time of need.
December 9th, 2005 at 4:07 amG+D Damnet take off your helmet i know you have to where it because some times you run into things and sometimes you think your a soldier. See I’m for non-violence, I’m a pacifist, and I’m french hahaha I bet you think that’s so funny, I’m a crazy Italian-Iranian-French-american. See, i’m sick and tired of people discriminating based on race or ethinicity, I advocate a world with no country or world government and everyone apreciate everyone.
True equality.I don’t hate america nor do i hate the iraqis, because there are other ways to solve all these crazy problems ; here are some quotes who are truly wise and stong.”Violence is the weapon of the weak; non-violence the weapon of the strong.”
December 9th, 2005 at 7:48 am“In its most dynamic form non-violence means conscious suffering. It does not mean submitting in humiliation to the will of the wrongdoer, rather matching oneself up against the tyrant’s will with one’s entire soul.”
“Every state puts down criminal disobedience by force. It perishes, if it does not. But to put down civil disobedience is an attempt to imprison conscience.”all from Ghandi Why dont you realize the truth than fabricate
bullsh*t and let ignorance flow through your mind like a polluting river.
Well guys, you actually managed to impress me. Those were the two most civil repsoneses I’ve yet seen in this forum. Bravo.
December 9th, 2005 at 10:36 amInfuriated…thanks for your thanking me for my service. It sounds, kinda cheezy, but After all that time in the desert and all the sacrifice, I never tire of hearing it. You’re very welcome, sir. And you have my solemn pledge to defend your right to freedom of speech with my life.
I will be civil from now on as long as you all are.
Onto other things. We didn’t really expend that much depleted uranium in the desert (I know, it’s a tangent here). DP round are only used in tank guns, and only used to kill other tanks. Everything else (armored personnel carriers, armored cars, trucks, SP artillery) can be handily destroyed with high explosive (HE) rounds. DP’s are very effective at penetrating thick armor, but they are very expensive. So alas, our reasons for not using DP unless necessary are, sad to say, not environmental, but economical. The reason we didn’t use as many as anticipated is in fact because a high percentage of Iraqi tanks were unserviceable due to poor maintenance. Those that are fired are not recovered. But try to understand that the threat posed by DP rounds is not as bad as you might think. Yes, they are radioactive, while the exact specifications are still classified, it is actually no more radiation exposure than is in the tritium in a wristwatch. That being said, harm can come to you by long-term exposure. Very long term exposure, and I mean you’d have to keep it on your person for a number of years or have it close at all times.
Okay now…I’ll not respond to my invitation to join the insurgency. You are right, Infuriated (yes, I can actually be corrected when wrong) that it was innapriopriate to say that.
I do take issue at your statement that “anti-war” isn’t necessarily “pro-defeat”. You have to understand that a withdrawal is not going to be interpreted by our enemy as anything other than a victory and a validation that terrorism can force the US do bend to their will. Very bad, that.
Besides, the plan is working, albeit slower than most would like. Me least of all, because I have to go back this fall. But the Iraqi’s are slowly (very slowly) taking charge of their own areas. The US Army currently has a brigade that was sent to Iraq that is still in kuwait. But they are not being sent north. The AP has said that they may be used as a “contingency force” and the AP reported today that the Pentagon may send them back to Germany after the dec 15th elections. They also announced yesterday that two more brigades may be halted from going. Reason is…hold your breath…the areas they were going to have been turned over to Federal Iraqi control. So, even thought it’s not visible or fast, it is happening. And like it or not, Iraq’s new government is actually more legitimate than most in the mid east.
Now, in the spirit of civility that has been displayed by Infuriated, I can field some questions regarding military operations in Iraq, but understand I will not divuldge anything sensitive of course. But speaking strictly in my area of expertise, I think I can give y’all some better perspective of what is actually happening on the ground.
I don’t know about that I looked at this, but the lady it looks like makeup or some of them could be photoshop, but i guess this is radioactivity to me.http://multigraphic.dk/lounge/wordpress/?p=1528
December 9th, 2005 at 10:51 amThank you Mike for your civility, and again for your service. I would also like to say that since we ARE there, and there IS a war, regardless of my disagreement with the initial reasons for it, it is good we are staying through the Iraqi government elections, because that is obviously going to be a time of increased risk for all parties involved. I hope all goes well, and i wish you and your military brothers the best of luck in all your future deployments.
On a lighter and perhaps less relevant note, There is a seldom mentioned “grey area” of the force, in which one understands Both sides of the force, and has the wisdom to know when each is appropriate in a given situation, not giving oneself entirely to either extreme. Just a thought. :)
December 9th, 2005 at 12:11 pmWell, it’s official. The Pentagon has leaked that our 2d Brigade Combat Team (of the 1st Armored Division) will most likely come home after the dec 15th elections. They left early last month and have been in the Kuwaiti desert awaiting a mission. Looks like they’ll be coming home after a two month deployment. Some guys will probably stay and go north into Iraq as training teams for Iraqi Federal Army battalions. Things are going slow, but the transition is happening. What people don’t understand is that yes, you can train private soldiers in a few months to be ready for combat, but it’s taken so long for the rest of the Iraqi Fed’s because the sergeants, lieutenants, captains, and higher-ups take quite a while. And because of de-baathification policy (or de-saddamization, haha) we can’t have too many higher ranks from the old Iraqi army. Leadership can’t be taught, and a great deal of it can only come from experience. That’s why an independent Iraqi Federal Army is taking so much time. The other reason is that there has been an emphasis on getting Iraqi combat battalions stood up before the support, signal, quartermaster, engineering, battalions are established. And we are now probably going to see more an emphasis on getting those transportation and logistics and command-and-control units stood up, enabling the Iraqi’s to operate without support or aid from their American counterparts.
December 10th, 2005 at 6:26 amThe other good news today is that the Sunni’s are issuing a widespread plea for the release of the hostages, and the good citizens of Ramadi have handed over a high-ranking Al-quaeda member to US forces. Good stuff.
That Guy,
I checked out that website, and althought I’m not an expert in radiation burns, those don’t look like it. Those look like deformities caused by long term exposure to high levels of gamma-radiation (not present in DP rounds) or are just birth deformities. The author also states that all ammunition the US uses contains high levels of depleted uranium. Not true. Only the afforementioned DP anti-tank round has it. And those aren’t being used much in Iraq anymore because there isn’t an enemy tank threat. So most of our tanks’ turret loads will be high-explosive, with only a few DP rounds for “just-in-case” scenarios. Besides, if DP rounds did that kind of damage to the body in only a couple years’ exposure with a few rounds in your rice paddy or back yard, then our troops would indeed be the main attraction at a freak-show. A US soldier’s BASIC load of 5.56mm M16 ammunition is 210 rounds. Most carry a lot more. And it’s carried on your body. If they were DP, and DP was as dangerous as that author is alleging, then all American soldiers in Iraq would be dead. I think that author has a definite agenda, and is twisting the truth or outright lying to acheive his ends. My two cents.
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January 26th, 2006 at 9:56 pmHello Think Progress, I was searching the web and found your article “Strategy for Victory in Iraq†“. I really like your blog and found it worth while reading through the posts. I am looking to publish a comprehensive site reviewing many different articles and blogg. Please feel free to take a look at my blog at Strategic tactical planning and add anything your want.
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March 12th, 2006 at 5:27 am[...] Today, the White House released its long-overdue National Security Strategy (NSS). Like the National Strategy for Victory in Iraq before it, the NSS is a pure public relations stunt that has little basis in reality. Here is a quick fact-check of the document: [...]
March 16th, 2006 at 2:24 pm[...] National Strategery for Victory in Iraq: “National Strategery for Victory in Iraq. Some might recommend having a strategy for victory before the war starts, but President Bush unveiled our National Stategy for Victory in Iraq (deconstructed here) today at another recitation of his ‘major speech’ on Iraq at a captive audience at a military installation. [more inside]” [...]
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