Rapid Response: Deconstructing the “National Strategy for Victory in Iraq”
Rapid Response: Deconstructing the “National Strategy for Victory in Iraq”
After two-and-a-half years and 2,110 U.S. troop fatalities, the Bush administration released what it calls a “National Strategy for Victory in Iraq” (NSVI). The problem is, it’s not a new strategy for success in Iraq; it’s a public relations document. The strategy describes what has transpired in Iraq to date as a resounding success and stubbornly refuses to establish any standards for accountability. It dismisses serious problems such as the dramatic increase in bombings as “metrics that the terrorists and insurgents want the world to use.” Americans understand it’s time for a new course in Iraq. Unfortunately, this document is little more than an extended justification for a President “determined to stay his course.”
NO STANDARDS FOR ACCOUNTABILITY: Two weeks ago, the Senate overwhelmingly endorsed an amendment calling on the Bush administration to provide a “schedule” for meeting U.S. objectives in Iraq, “information regarding variables that could alter that schedule, and the reasons for any subsequent changes to that schedule.” The NSVI completely rejects this call. “We will not put a date certain on when each stage of success will be reached,” the document states in bold and italicized print, “because the timing of success depends upon meeting certain conditions, not arbitrary timetables.” The only time frames proposed for achieving U.S. objectives are virtually meaningless phrases: “short term,” “medium term,” and “longer term.” The goals for these time frames are equally ambiguous; the so-called “short term” goals, for instance, are listed as “making steady progress in fighting terrorists, meeting political milestones, building democratic institutions, and standing up security forces.”
IGNORING KEY CHALLENGES: When decorated veteran Rep. Jack Murtha (D-PA) presented his Iraq plan two weeks ago, he offered two primary reasons for supporting redeployment. One was the heavy burden the Iraq war has placed on the U.S. military and its recruitment and retention efforts, many of which are at historically low levels. The second was the shifting sentiments of the Iraqi population; Murtha cited a recent poll that found “over 80 percent of Iraqis are strongly opposed to the presence of coalition troops, and about 45 percent of the Iraqi population believe attacks against American troops are justified.” The NSVI ignores both of these fundamental facts. Virtually nothing is said about the well-being of our military, unquestionably a vital element in any strategy for success. Moreover, it disregards the latest Iraqi public opinion data, stating falsely that violence “has been discredited within and outside Iraq.”
DISMISSING INCREASED VIOLENCE: The NSVI emphasizes that U.S. officials “track numerous indicators to map the progress of our strategy,” and offers websites where some of these reports are publicly available. “Americans can read and assess these reports to get a better sense of what is being done in Iraq and the progress being made on a daily, weekly, and monthly basis.” The problem is that these reports have on numerous occasions been found to be inaccurate, or to overstate progress using incomplete or misleading data. Additionally, the document states (in bold print) that these Pentagon statistics “have more strategic significance than the metrics that the terrorists and insurgents want the world to use as a measure of progress or failure: number of bombings.” Surely one needs a wide assortment of statistics to get the full picture from Iraq. But considering the No. 1 “Strategic Pillar” listed in the NSVI is to “Defeat the Terrorists and Neutralize the Insurgency,” it is simply not true to claim that the number of insurgent bombings (now at an all-time high) is irrelevant as a measure of progress.
REPLACING METRICS WITH EMPTY PHRASES: In late-September, Gen. George Casey Jr., who oversees U.S. forces in Iraq, revealed that “[t]he number of Iraqi army battalions that can fight insurgents without U.S. and coalition help has dropped from three to one.” That meant only 700 Iraq Security forces were rated as “Level 1″ on the four point scale created by the U.S. military. Instead of addressing the problem, they’ve abandoned the ratings system. The NSVI notes that “now more than 120 Iraqi army and police battalions are in the fight.” (The term “in the fight,” used six times in the document, is not defined.) The strategy also notes: “As of November 2005, there were more than 212,000 trained and equipped Iraqi Security Forces, compared with 96,000 in September of last year.” It fails to mention that in Feburary 2004, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld claimed there were 210,000 members of the Iraqi Security Forces and a “thousand more that are currently in training.”
THE NATIONAL PAT ON THE BACK: The NSIV is less of a strategy and more of a pat on the back. Much of the 35 pages is devoted to describing how well things are going. Oddly, the strategy declares on Page 5 that “Our Strategy Is Working.” On the economic front we are told, “Our restore, reform, build, strategy is achieving results.” On the political front: “Our Isolate, Engage, and Build strategy is working.” On the security front: “Our clear, hold, and build strategy is working.” With everything going so well, the NSVI reminds us that “change is coming to the region…From Kuwait to Morocco, Jordan, and Egypt, there are stirrings of political pluralism, often for the first time in generations.”
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The “National Strategy for Victory in Iraq” document, along with the Intelligence commission reports, Downing Street memos, Iraq Survey Group and a host of other essential documents are available at:
“The Iraq WMD and Intelligence Resource Center.”
November 30th, 2005 at 9:43 amI heard from a source of mine late last night. He had a copy of this document and tells me that he can prove that the document was not drawn up in 2003, but was drawn up in the last three or four days.
My source tells me that the document was ran off on the NEW printers in the office of the WH staff, and was probably written by Karl Rove.
My source also states that a careful read of the document shows references to situations not even in existence in 2003.
The slick cover has a printers mark denoting that it was printed in 2005.
What we have here folks is an attempt, once again, by the bushies to pull the wool over the eyes of the American people, and he will get by with it, however, my source is going to take all information to the media and see what happens.
November 30th, 2005 at 9:48 amBut you forget, these guys think they can create reality itself. If they say something is irrelevant, then its irrelevant by definition.
I can’t believe they are in charge for three more years.
November 30th, 2005 at 9:53 amthis is pretty insulting… there are no specifics… it mentions “meeting certain conditions,” then fails to give us those conditions…
November 30th, 2005 at 9:54 amwhy would they need a victory plan when bushie said ‘MISSION ACCOMPLISHED’???????? They must live in la la land?
November 30th, 2005 at 9:54 amIt’s the same old rhetoric.
November 30th, 2005 at 9:55 amFew intelligent Americans are going to be hoodwinked again. To continually repeat “how good things are going” while solidiers come home in bags and wheelchairs just demonstrates to Americans that this report is complete bullshit.
I thought the Admin would really steal the attention this time…look good. If TP is accurately portraying what is in this report, than it’s so rosy as to lose all credibility. This gets one day of free pub, then it’s fogotten. And tomorrow we start anew calling for troops to come home….
November 30th, 2005 at 9:56 amHoly cow! They used my title!
My “Victory in Iraq (v0.5)” was done just before we invaded! I still agree with the sentiment the music conveys.
Download: http://download2.ampcast.com/ AUD-64285-dld-6620144-0-0-0-DLDLGXGXGXJFQNREJ/ Victory_in_Iraq_v05.mp3
Stream: http://www.ampcast.com/ LST-64285-mus-128-6620144-0-0-0-DLDLGXGXGXJFQNREJ/ Victory_in_Iraq_v05.m3u
The rest of my stuff at that site: http://www.ampcast.com/music/5560/music.php
(And yeah, I know it ain’t pretty. That’s my point. And my apologies for spamming.)
November 30th, 2005 at 9:57 amSAMO !SAMO ! Same ol’ shit , same PR , same increase in expendidure , money goes thru their fingers like the sands of Iraq , more unnecessary death , more destruction to satisty george’s and dick’s egos : “we will not admit defeat ” .
November 30th, 2005 at 9:59 amAll package, no content. Bush will fizzle selling his sizzle….
November 30th, 2005 at 10:00 amWar Criminals. Thats all I have to say…
November 30th, 2005 at 10:00 amI just read the first three pages and browsed parts of the rest.At first blush, this reads like a talking point memo, but then again, what should one expect from a whitehouse that is adapt at writing such things and not policy.
Also, near the end with the quotes by Osama and how Iraq is the “central front on the war on terror” - there is no citation attached with them. Which leads me to believe this is the same old tired talking point of tying Iraq to the “war on terror.”
Overall, they could have saved me the trouble of reading this tripe and just have a one liner of “Since 911…blah blah blah blah” that you hear every whitehouse offical from the Bush to Rumsfeld to Rice to Cheney opposionally state in the face of reality.
//Quicksand
November 30th, 2005 at 10:00 amWow. If I tried to present a vague status report
November 30th, 2005 at 10:07 amlike that at work, I would ripped to shreds
in the meeting.
I guess it is good to be king.
Si I guess this is what bushco means when they tell the Iraqi people they will withdraw when asked. We’ve been asked to leave and bushco replies with a firm :”Up yours, Screw You!!!”. Unfortunately they are telling the american people the same thing.
All this to protect the oil industry. I tell ya, Who else is getting a little tired of coddling the most profitable sector in the US economy? I am.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:08 amissuing a “strategy for victory in iraq” after 2,110 soldiers have died: how is that “supporting the troops”? seems like those 2,110 men and women could have used that support before they were killed.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:08 amIMPEACH BUSH CHENEY NOW!
November 30th, 2005 at 10:10 amThe BIG LIE! and the sheeple will suck it up just like the coolade! Watch. Casey- 1 batallion
November 30th, 2005 at 10:22 amrumsfeld- 212,000 troops “FULLY TRAINED and EQUIPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They just keep lying
billjpa@aol.com
the evidence mounts against this administration…how can they say they are for the people of this country, iraq, or those fighting?
November 30th, 2005 at 10:29 am“Oh my God, It’s…It’s a cookbook !! Aaaaahhhhhh!!!
I wonder where they stole the cover sheet?
November 30th, 2005 at 10:32 amThe report will get all the headlines, 2 minute reports on the national news, and Rove will have fooled those who are always fooled.
Our guys will still be dying while the clear, hold, and build strategy for George Bush’s bubble is working.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:36 amIt truly is startling at how inept our government has become. . .and at how visible that ineptitude is to the public. It’s getting harder and harder to be “Proud to Be American” these days, it’s heartbreaking.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:39 amOr buy American goods, sell american goods, or employ american workers, our country has been sold out from under us for increased profits with the guidence and encouragement of this administration, never, in my nearly 30 years do I remember a time when so much pro corporate/anti citizen legsliation and manuevers have taken place, cities ar looking worse than they did in the 80s and the rich get richer (sorry to rant, it’s still fairly early here)
November 30th, 2005 at 10:48 am“Helping the Iraqi People Defeat the Terrorists and Build an Inclusive Democratic State”
First of all, are we calling the INSURGENTS terrorists?
According the polls taken 45% of the Iraqi people back the terrorists attacking us.
The Iraqi leader just declared the insurgents not terrorists. They said it was perfectly legal.
Also, according to our own generals in Iraq, the Iraqis aren’t doing the fighting, we are. SO, we can’t help somebody when we are doing the work.
Also:
The Political Track
(Isolate, Engage, Build)
The Security Track
(Clear, Hold, Build)
The Economic Track
(Restore, Reform, Build)
In PR these are what are called triplicates. You always want to tie three words together about your product:
“Faster, longer range and more reliable than ever.”
So, what we have here is the PR plan for Iraq. Nothing more than empty words.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:49 amBush’s Iraq rehash is a national strategy for failure:
- No definition of “victory” and whether it is still possible
- No success metrics
- No new resources or troops to control the borders
- No admission of errors and miscalculations
For a potential Democratic alternative, see:
November 30th, 2005 at 10:51 am“A 10-Point Plan for Iraq.”
In comment # 7, Punchy says that few intelligent Americans are going to be hoodwinked again. My question is, how many intelligent Americans are left out there? The “liberal media” have so thoroughly dumbed down the American population at large that I’m afraid there are only a few voices in the wilderness remaining; the rest of the herd will simply continue to go along and get along while the country throws more lives and resources down the toilet (sourced from Halliburton, of course).
November 30th, 2005 at 10:51 amNo Child Left Behind makes it so those in school will never read a 35 pages report (WITH NO PICTURES OR COLOR!) this country just gets dumber and dumberer [SIC] which was made apparent with the 2004 elections, No Child Left Behind is for the millitary, not education…they should scroll it word for word below the next nascar race, or have Jimmy Johnson and Howie Long read it this sunday, then the public may get the picture, but I doubt it
November 30th, 2005 at 10:58 amLipstick on the pig…
November 30th, 2005 at 11:03 amChris in AZ,
I would be happy if they just read section 9528 of the No Child Left Behind Act. You know where schools will lose federal funding if they refues to give the name, address and telephone number of every student from middle school up.
They thought they could get bodies that way instead of a draft.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:05 amYawn. This is the longest “Stay the Course” pamphlet ever. And here we all were, hyping around that this was going to be the beginning of an exit strategy. What did we get? The same goddamned sales pitch that was sold to us in June, and earlier this month. There is no definitieve exit strategy in this document. All I see here are the same old slogans and catchphrases and sales tactics that have defined this administration from Day One of the Campaign in 1999.
Enough, already. The next time Bush decides to hold a policy speech in regards to Iraq, I’m going to assume that I’ve seen it already, I won’t need to see it again, and skip it. There’s no point in watching any of this guy’s policy speeches anymore–you already know what’s coming, even before he starts. And of course, this Admin.’s continuing philosophy to those that oppose its wayward course, is as always: When a problem comes along, you must zip it.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:10 amWhat does it mean to “neutralize” meddling from Syria and Iran? Nixon’s Vietnamization strategy - intended to defuse domestic criticism of an increasingly unpopular war - included building the capacity of the South Vietnamese, reducing US troop levels, making increased use of air power, and broadening the war into Cambodia and Laos. The first three elements of Vietnamization are all in the Bush “plan.” Is it possible that the vague language about “neutralizing” interference from the neighbors is a euphemism for the fourth element - expanding beyond borders?
November 30th, 2005 at 11:14 amIt’s the Sophists at work again. State a reality, any reality, and it will come true if you believe! Clap your hands everyone, or else Tinkerbell will die at the hands of evil Al Queda! It’s YOUR fault if she dies!
November 30th, 2005 at 11:15 amSame Sh*t, Different Day.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:18 amI had a freaky coincidence. At the exact time I was reading: “now more than 120 Iraqi army and police battalions are in the fight.â€
Lynne Cheney was on the Diane Rehm show saying those exact words, verbatim.
I wonder if she memorized the whole document?
November 30th, 2005 at 11:19 am“Americans understand it’s time for a new course in Iraq.”
I just love how partisans try to inflate their opinion by making it look like everyone out there agrees with them. I’m an American and I disagree with most of what I read here, given that it is utterly partisan, utterly political, and will avoid mentioning any fact which does not further the ’cause’ fueled by Bush-hatred.
I just wish some of you people would stop seeing the world through the lens of “I hate George Bush, therefore…” and evaluate things a bit more objectively.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:22 am[…] Think Progress provides a deconstruction of the “Strategy for Victory” document. Oliver Willis provides a summary: There’s really no concrete definition of victory here, still. But it seems that they’re saying we don’t leave until Iraq is a full western style democracy… with ponies. Of course, Iraq is currently a hotbed of violence with 150,000 U.S. troops holding down the fort, and shows no interest in western style democracy, preferring to enshrine religious Sharia law than anything resemble the U.S. constitution. […]
November 30th, 2005 at 11:22 amHe can’t get his had out of the jar without letting go of the oil…that’s the whole point of it. Meanwhile they’ll just keep on keeping on, re-hashing the same old talking points and dragging this thing out in the hope that they’ll get lucky…of course since they haven’t bothered to define ‘victory’ as yet they won’t even know when that luck finally shows up. Frankly, they should have recognized Rep. Murtha’s pronouncements, along with those from the Arab conference in Egypt, calling for ‘getting our troops the hell out of there’ as just the excuse they need…but then again, there’s still the oil. My, my, what a mess they have made.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:22 amStategery for Victory
We will not “cut and run.” Instead, we will “cut and paste” old speeches.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:30 am[…] Think Progress did some heavy lifting anyway. For your enjoyment: After two-and-a-half years and 2,110 U.S. troop fatalities, the Bush administration released what it calls a “National Strategy for Victory in Iraq” (NSVI). The problem is, it’s not a new strategy for success in Iraq; it’s a public relations document. The strategy describes what has transpired in Iraq to date as a resounding success and stubbornly refuses to establish any standards for accountability. It dismisses serious problems such as the dramatic increase in bombings as “metrics that the terrorists and insurgents want the world to use.” Americans understand it’s time for a new course in Iraq. Unfortunately, this document is little more than an extended justification for a President “determined to stay his course.” … NO STANDARDS FOR ACCOUNTABILITY … IGNORING KEY CHALLENGES … DISMISSING INCREASED VIOLENCE … REPLACING METRICS WITH EMPTY PHRASES … THE NATIONAL PAT ON THE BACK: The NSIV is less of a strategy and more of a pat on the back. Much of the 35 pages is devoted to describing how well things are going. Oddly, the strategy declares on Page 5 that “Our Strategy Is Working.” On the economic front we are told, “Our restore, reform, build, strategy is achieving results.” On the political front: “Our Isolate, Engage, and Build strategy is working.” On the security front: “Our clear, hold, and build strategy is working.” With everything going so well, the NSVI reminds us that “change is coming to the region…From Kuwait to Morocco, Jordan, and Egypt, there are stirrings of political pluralism, often for the first time in generations.” […]
November 30th, 2005 at 11:35 am“I just wish some of you people would stop seeing the world through the lens of “I hate George Bush, therefore…†and evaluate things a bit more objectively.”
Sorry, anything that comes out of these guys is bad. We will not stop. Our method is working, just look at all the indictments, investigations and guilty pleas. Sitting back and doing nothing was not working. This is. If you don’t like it, I am sure there are some moderate democratic sites you can go to.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:36 amNational Strategy for Victory in Iraq could be better phrased as “National Tragedy for Iraq and America”.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:37 amThe National Strategy for Victory in Iraq is…Lather, rinse, repeat. Then pray it all works out in the end.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:38 amDeconstructing Bush’s “National Strategy for Victory in Iraq”
No accountability, no metrics, ignores rise in violence, self-congratulatory puff-piece — yep, that’s Bush’s, all right.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:47 am[…] Don’t bother reading it. It’s clearly a document that was hastily thrown together in the last two weeks by a White House responding to Jack Murtha…I would bet my mother’s Christmas cookie recipes on that. Think Progress does a breakdown. I agree with Harry Reid. After nearly 1,000 days of war in Iraq, our troops, their families, and the American people deserve more than just a Bush-Cheney public relations campaign. […]
November 30th, 2005 at 11:55 amWhat about those 8 strategic pillars? They should be working on several of these pillars here at home–like providing essential services, strengthening the economy, strengthening the rule of law, promoting civil rights, and we certainly could use an increase in international support.
November 30th, 2005 at 12:17 pmWhat a joke!
Talk about “drawing down troops” all you like… it aint going to happen!
The US is not going to abandon the oil and Israel - we may see the number of ground troops lowered, but (as with Vietnam and Kosovo) the US will step up their aerial bombing efforts - and consequently, this war will grow…first to Syria, then to Iran. In 5 years the Middle East is going to be chaos… mission accomplished for the neocons.
November 30th, 2005 at 12:22 pmyes, all the war criminals and their families have memorized these figures so they can keep up this retarded stay the course policy for a while longer…let`s hope not too much longer,…IMPEACH…IMPRISON…and EXECUTE…and get this bankrupt,hated by the world country back on track!
November 30th, 2005 at 12:33 pmRead this quote on CNN.com in a story about Bush’s speech:
Bush characterized the U.S. enemy in Iraq as “a combination of rejectionists, Saddamists and terrorists.” The terrorist group, he said, “is the smallest but the most lethal” of the three.
Note that the word “insurgent” is missing. Bush just made up a new word. Went to dictionary.com and could not find rejectionist.
So as I see it, remove the terrorists from the equation and what we have is 2/3 of our “enemy” do not want us occupying their country and/or do not want a new form of government. Message from the U.S.: we know what is best for your country, and if you don’t like it, then tough.
November 30th, 2005 at 12:34 pmMore vagueness and non-specifics from Bush.
And he has the mendacity to blame democrats and the media for the loss of public support for the mission in Iraq.
Boy do these guys think everyone is stupid.
November 30th, 2005 at 12:35 pmwell its about time! now we can go back to fighting East Asia, or is that Eurasia? I keep getting them mixed up. Anyway, long live Big Brother!
I watched the bush speech. if that man were Pinocchio he would have to carry around his nose in a wheel barrel.
November 30th, 2005 at 12:35 pmSTRATEGY? Hmmmm…
That was the most IGNORANT rant that I have ever heard? Many soldiers waiting for some word that they are finally coming home, and they get this CRAP!!!
Stay the Course? What course? What objective? What milestones? When Iraqi battallions are trained? With what…YOU IDIOTS!!! We train them on tactics, with NO LIVE AMMO! THAT is why the run from firefights!!! And they say they are getting better?
What a useless windbag! No wonder he doesn’t come to Ft. Sill, OK! I need another vacation! He needs a CONTROLLED audience to ensure he’s not laughed off the stage! As we know, soldiers are not coached on what to do and say when the President is in town! (wink wink)
November 30th, 2005 at 12:39 pmRoute Irish
There’s a metric for you.
Will you die trying to get to the airport? Will your plane be shot by a SAM on takeoff?
Stay tuned for staying the course RIGHT OFF THE CLIFF!
November 30th, 2005 at 12:47 pmAs an old college professor, I also noticed a trick students try to get away with to make their papers appear to be much longer than they really are: Just repeat the same stuff over and over again! The 38 pages can be boiled down to 2 pages of soundbites. Very disappointing….But the scary quetsion is, “Does this fool anybody?”
November 30th, 2005 at 1:10 pmCUT AND RUN WITH IT
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED again. As poll numbers fall as Iraqis stand up, we will run as fast as we can we will stand down. Victory kind of is ours. Do not look at that request for yet more money the
November 30th, 2005 at 1:10 pmBut the scary quetsion is, “Does this fool anybody?”
Comment by Tricia — November 30, 2005 @ 1:10 pm
Just wait to see the posts from our resident die-hard conservative contributors (I am using that term loosely).
November 30th, 2005 at 1:22 pmHere’s a good one form the NSVI website:
“The following document articulates the broad strategy the President set forth in 2003 and provides an update on our progress as well as the challenges remaining.”
So, Bush has kept his “strategy” secret, even from the republican Senate who are asking for a strategy. Why? Because Bush and plas aren’t republicans. They are NeoCons and the republicans are starting to realize that.
November 30th, 2005 at 1:33 pmNSVI is a cookbook entitiled ‘To Serve Mankind’. At least Rod Serling’s story WAS a fairytale. What’s this BS the Bushies are coming up with?
November 30th, 2005 at 1:34 pm#52 - Absolutely. Great post.
Just to further support your point, I tried counting the number references to terror/terrorist/terrorism.
I got to 104. (And this, lest we forget, the week after the Iraqis agreed that the insurgents should not be referred to as terrorists.)
Still, you never expect much from the Bushies, and this is the standard dross served up for people who aren’t likely to read any more than the front page.
November 30th, 2005 at 1:43 pmWhat a bunch of frauds these guys are. Democracy’s on the march, huh? Well, you’d better march it right back here to the USA– we can use it. The Founding Fathers themselves warned us that unvarnished information is democracy’s lifeblood. Between the Bushites hired pens, Rumsfeld’s propaganda offices, rumour-creating-and-disseminating corporate thinktanks, the corporate monopolized media, and condescending, toothless swill like this– this democracy’s veins are running dry.
November 30th, 2005 at 1:45 pmThis is just a smokescreen to buy more time. Where is the money for the Iraqi oil going? The oil companies and the defense contractors are receiving the benefits while the taxpayers are paying for the war and the poor Iraqi people are receiving the horrible consequences. NSVI gave no specifics other than the quantity of oil being produced. This makes me ashamed of my country.
November 30th, 2005 at 2:01 pmJack, it’s worse than you think. There have been reports in Iraqi newspapers that the oil production in the South,particularly, is greater than the meters are showing. Sadr and other militia leaders have been siphoning oil and selling it on the black market to fund arms purchases. What oil is produced is not sufficient to meet increased demand in the country. So when you hear that oil production is back to or in excess of pre-war levels, you have to realize that the status quo ante isn’t enough. Until they can meet internal demand, there isn’t enough to generate money to pay for reconstruction. And the US has already agreed that Iraq need not repay whay we spend there. Unlike,say, New Orleans, which does have to repay monies provided for Katrina relief.
November 30th, 2005 at 2:29 pmBush reminds me of Baldric from the Blackadder TV show. “I have a cunning plan.” Usually the plan was neither cunning or a plan.
November 30th, 2005 at 2:30 pmSubtitled:
November 30th, 2005 at 3:06 pm“Our Strategy is Our Strategy is Working”
What a complete load of horse shit. Exactly how stupid do you have to be to continue to believe all or any of the Repulicans’ lies ??
November 30th, 2005 at 3:09 pmOkay, once again, there is a problem with these people’s wording. Did you see the bis sign behind Bush? That, not this document is what people will remember. Most people will remember:
“Plan For Victory”
Yeah, well I plan to take a drink of water.
My strategy for getting a drink of water is to stand up for my chair, go through the doorway, turn North and go down one flight of steps, where I will reach the living room. I will traverse the lving room to the kitchen, where I will hunt down a glass, by first staking out the cupboard. If that doesn’t turn up any glasses, I will infiltrate my dishwasher. Since I know the dishwasher to be a hive of glasses, I am pretty sure I will find one there. I will then take that glass to the refrigerator and hold it under the water jug and pull toward me on the tap, to release a stream of cold water into my glass. I will then raise the glass to my lips and let the cold water flow into my mouth, at which point it will start the swallaowing process.
Do you see the difference between a plan and a strategy?
November 30th, 2005 at 3:21 pmwell, all i have to say is: Good luck with the next 3 years with this administration!
November 30th, 2005 at 3:32 pmJust make sure to drink the water in the kitchen so you don’t have to drink it in the living room…
November 30th, 2005 at 3:34 pmIf you are pissed off by this, you should pick up Rolling Stone and read the article by James Bamford “The Man Who Sold the War.” That will piss you off.
November 30th, 2005 at 3:34 pmHey, Spudge - that’s not bad for starters… except we now need measurable objectives. For example:
1. How long to make said way to kitchen…
2. How long to find said glass…
3. How long till said glass of water reaches your mouth.
You see, if you think it might take like a week to get to step 3 and is going to cost you several grand to fill your glass, you’ve got a serious f*cking problem.
And thus, if Chimp actually wanted to lay out a strategy, Murkah would soon realize we have a serious f*cking problem in Iraq. Okay, I take that back. Except for a few retards like NeD, Murkah would realize how serious the situation is in Iraq.
November 30th, 2005 at 3:35 pmIt is clear - nations have the Presidents they deserve - Now the Democrats are saying - and this includes Mrs Clinton - that they were deceived - that they voted for the war becuz Bush lied - But I ask - What about the UNITED NATIONS? What about the inspectors that spent weeks on the ground and found NOTHING!!!! These guys deserve each other!! All morons, but no member of Congress has sent their own kids to war in Irak
November 30th, 2005 at 3:36 pmThis National Plan for Victory in Iraq, according to the White House, has been “declassified”, and they do not indicate if it was formerly TOP SECRET or SECRET.
After reading through it I could not find where it might have been classified at all.
Suspecting another spin (lie) by the folks in bushlandia I called my source and asked him to check the Pentagon and White House classified documents logs for this document from 2003 to date.
He just got back to me at 3:30 EST and informed me that he checked every which way possible and could not find any such document as having been classified.
Anothr lie by the White House folks.
November 30th, 2005 at 3:37 pmYou know we’re screwed when Fafblog has a more detailed plan for victory in Iraq. And one that has a better chance of succeeding, I might add.
November 30th, 2005 at 3:38 pmNo worries mate.
Wonderful Bush Strategy/Public Relations Spin for Victory:
The Iraqi security forces and military “will one day*” have the ability to fight those bad guys we’re having trouble with!! Trust me!!
(* “will one day” Registered Trade Mark, BushCo.)
Uh, wait a moment. Hmmmm. If the WORLD’S MIGHTIEST military is helpless to reduce the STEADILY GROWING number of deadly un-orchestrated, under-funded attacks; Hell might freeze over before the Iraqi military will have ANY effect.
“Helping the Iraqi People Defeat the Terrorists and Build an Inclusive Democratic State - one innocent Iraqi body per minute.”
Now that’s a plan.
November 30th, 2005 at 3:51 pm“You see, if you think it might take like a week to get to step 3 and is going to cost you several grand to fill your glass, you’ve got a serious f*cking problem.”
Dumb Fox,
Exactly. If Bush put forth a real strategy, America would figured out that this neverending, illegal war is going to cost $10 trillion. That is the real problem right there.
November 30th, 2005 at 3:59 pmYou little sissies who are crying over the skirmish in Iraq make me sick! You ain’t seen nothin’ yet! USA! USA! USA!
U.S. conflicts destined to come within the next 10 years:
Iran
North Korea
Next 20 years:
Syria
Iraq II (oil induced war)
China (new cold war, no shots will be fired)
Next 50 years:
Russia, France, & Germany vs. everyone else, has potential to escalate into a nuclear conflict
Prediction:
100 years from now, Saudi Arabia, which will be controlled by people we would today call radical Islamic types, will own over 75% of the world’s wealth. Christians will be persecuted to a degree not seen on this planet since Jesus walked amongst us…dark days are ahead, I’m afraid.
Be thankful for the gifts God has given you. Appreciate your family. Trust Jesus.
November 30th, 2005 at 4:03 pm#74
Ummmmm………ok.
November 30th, 2005 at 4:04 pmsame shit,differant day
November 30th, 2005 at 4:07 pmI HAVE CHILD PORNOGRAPHY!
November 30th, 2005 at 4:10 pmRe: Post 77
Not funny at all. I hope this site records your IP Address. That stuff shouldn’t be joked about.
November 30th, 2005 at 4:12 pmwe have heard this before.he just finally wrote it down
November 30th, 2005 at 4:13 pmNO TRUTH IN A WORLD RUN BY MAN.
November 30th, 2005 at 4:19 pmI just called customer service for the company that services this website (WHOIS is a valuable resource). Anyway, I can’t believe they would release this info to me, but I just verified that the person who posted message# 77 has the same IP Address as “bud”. When will people learn that the web ain’t a place to hide…they WILL find you.
Good luck, “bud”.
November 30th, 2005 at 4:28 pmBIGIdiot,
Bahaha, first of all the ISP wouldn’t track that, or even have the tools to do so.
You’re such a republican retard.
Whoever posted as you was probably more accurate than you care to admit, which would explain why you tried to defuse the blame to someone else. Are you sure that wasn’t your subconscious posting? I bet it was…
November 30th, 2005 at 5:13 pmI disagree with those who say it’s “nothing new.” It is most definitely not a course change but for once the ideas that have only been hinted at behind so much obfuscation have been laid out. It was comforting to actually have my own rationales for continuing to support the war actually acknowledged.
Do i like Bush and Rumsfeld? No. Have mistakes been made. Most definitely. Was this core to the War on Terror at the point we started it? Probably not. However, we ARE in this war now. Why and how we got to this point is far less important than where we go.
I’ve been desperately hoping for a real dialogue on the way forward. Unfortunately I only see one strategy on the table that’s even remotely acceptable, and it’s been wrapped up in the baggage of mistakes made and not admitted. Complaining about why we shouldnt be there doesn’t address the future. Hating Bush doesn’t address the future. Some have said to come home and basically try to forget it happened. I’ve yet to see a serious discussion about the challenegs and costs we face in doing so. It easy to see the costs of the current policy; lets develop options and look at the long term effects of them.
I’m just a moderate hoping for a real debate on the way forward. A debate I have yet to see, on options I’ve yet to see fleshed out. I’m not holding my breathe.
November 30th, 2005 at 5:15 pmNational Strategy For Victory in Iraq - The Musing
I read the National Strategy For Victory In Iraq (NSVI) three times. Finally, it hit me; this thing is the strawman for an advertising campaign designed to sell a product that does nothing and nobody is buying. It reads like something produced by a g…
November 30th, 2005 at 5:19 pmall right, let’s just cut the bs and annex iraq. at least bush and co wouldn’t be lying, glossing over, justifing, or rationalizing their bullheaded decisions. their ivory tower attitudes are ridiculous.
November 30th, 2005 at 5:51 pmThe “way forward” is marked “exit” and Iraqis and Americans would all be better off if the U.S. military would head for the door.
Like most posters here, I was disgusted by Bush’s NSVI dog-and-pony photo opportunity. The same lies that got us into Iraq are trotted out again as if they had not been thoroughly debunked long ago.
But let me cut to the chase: the reason that there is not now and never was an “exit” strategy is because the Bush regime never had any intention of leaving. The strategy from the beginning was to remove Saddaam Hussein, replace him with a hand-picked U.S.-backed regime, then garrison the country with numerous “enduring bases” from which the neo-cons could project American power throughout the region, picking off other enemies of Israel one at a time, until the way was clear for the return of Jesus or some other fantasy scenario.
What the neo-cons never imagined, being the arrogant neo-colonial elitists that they are, was that the “brown people” would actually mount an effective resistance and tie down 100K U.S. troops for years, killing and wounding thousands in the process and draining America’s coffers.
Anything short of what the Bushies set out to accomplish will go down as a defeat, hence their refusal to do anything other than “stay the course” and pray that something saves their sorry asses.
I’m going to be an optimist and book my flight to the Hague early. I don’t want to miss a single day of the war crimes trials when all of these malicious bastards are in the dock.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:17 pmmore of the same… we’ve heard every phrase before. we buried my cousin two weeks ago. he was murdered in Iraq. his real sacrifice was that he gave up his leave time for a man with children. he was 23. smart. fun. a great soldier. and while none of the family believe in the war, we do believe in a military. every generation has had a soldier or two. but when he said, “sometimes i feel like i’m in lord of the rings and i have the ring and i can’t find my way to mordor.” it’s crap there, guys. this is all a very bad deal. what’s happened to america? this document is nothing. it’s empty. it’s a lie. it’s a campaign brochure. it’s a fund-raising brochure. it’s a public relations brochure.
it’s all crap. all crap.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:35 pmthe way out - is to accept the offers of other countries to help train these iraqi forces. america has said “no” to many countries. if this is truly a coalition, then the u.s. need not control everything anymore, obviously we’re failing. we also need to let iraq rule itself. it is a tribal nation. you cannot turn a tribal nation into a democracy. they have to want a democracy first. didn’t the declaration of independence come before the constitution? have these people realized they are a free people? of course not, becuase we, the oppressors, the occupying presence will only allow what we think is acceptable to occur. c’mon. the socio-anthropolical aspect is being missed. “how can we overcome violence and oppression with oppression and violence” - martin luter king jr.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:41 pmRIDICULOUS!!! If this document were the blueprints for a house, no contractor could build it. This “blueprint” would be the equivalent of handing a carpenter a pamphlet that says “A house is a building with four walls, a floor and a ceiling, and some other stuff like windows and doors. Now you know how to build one - and it will be just SUPER when it’s done!”
Even the “strategy” is peppered (dare I say, “liberally?”) with quotes from dozens of the President’s speeches about invading Iraq. As if we haven’t heard this dialogue before. I don’t know about you, but when a song repeats its chorus over & over again, ad nauseum, I tune out. Who does he think will be listening in the end.
Every time Bush make as a speech he should just go out to the podium, open his mouth wide, turn on a tape recorder and just let it play. It’s the same old tired rhetoric (word for word) over and over again.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:56 pmreferring to 83…. TM, I don’t think a “mistake” is the right word. I think “deception” “manipulation” “lies” are more accurate. If we don’t deal with the truth, the solutions will never come. As far as I am concerned, just pull our guys out of there like we did in Vietnam. We recovered very well after that. We would be saving thousands of lives. Bush and his cronies are profiting hansomely from this war, that is the truth. Bush isn’t doing this to spread deomocracy in Iraq because we had alligned ourselves with some pretty hard dictators who brushed aside human rights in the past. You can’t just say Bush made a “mistake”. He lied and his purpose there is different than what he is saying why we are there. The solution??? leave. When things are based on a lie, the truth will invariably come out, through demonstrations, etc. Congressmen want to be relected, I think when the pain is bad enought, then the people of the United States will start to do something about it. Just like what happened in Vietnam. God willing, it will take a lot less time.
November 30th, 2005 at 7:03 pmWhy does my 16 year old daughter keep getting offers in the mail to join the military with promises of thousands of dollars? How sick is this? We are getting passports in order.
November 30th, 2005 at 7:05 pmBush’s Speech
Unless you’ve been sleeping under a rock for the last 24-48 hours, you probably know that Bush was going to detail his grand strategy for not losing victory in Iraq. Because I know that listening to this President hem and…
November 30th, 2005 at 7:35 pm[…] After reading the Executive Summary, I didn’t have the stomach to do this but Think Progress has a complete deconstruction of the “Victory Plan”. […]
November 30th, 2005 at 7:57 pmWhy did it take him so long to come up with this BS? He promised to explain / excuse himself right from the beginning:
“For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
October 16, 2002
Statement by the President
Today I have signed into law H.J. Res. 114, a resolution “To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.” […]
In addition, in accordance with section 4 of H.J. Res. 114, I intend to submit written reports to the Congress on matters relevant to this resolution every 60 days. To the extent possible, I intend to consolidate information in these reports with the information concerning Iraq submitted to the Congress pursuant to previous, related resolutions. (…)
GEORGE W. BUSH
November 30th, 2005 at 8:04 pmTHE WHITE HOUSE,
October 16, 2002.“
Lies… Lies… and more lies. Doesn’t this guy get it we don’t believe a word he says. The whole lot of them need to be held accountable for the mess they have got us in. They are a bunch of greedy self serving bastards who have no regard for sanctity of life. I am so disgusted with the state of this country we are definitely in the worst of times with no clear vision for our future. It is going to be a very long 3 years.
November 30th, 2005 at 8:29 pmThe most ironic news of the day. Iraqi citizens have asked Saddam to be allowed to run for president!
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/print.asp?page=2005\121\story_1-12-2005_pg4_14
Good job republicans, you’ve so screwed up the occupation that the iraqis prefer a dictator over american troops! That kind of ineptitude is clearly a NeoCon republican specific trait! It’s the same sort of checked out, irresponsible and inept attitude that’s rampant with the retardatrolls on this site!
November 30th, 2005 at 8:37 pmForgive me if I’m repeating someone else’s post (couldn’t read through all of them)….but I am disturbed by Bush’s reference to “. . . not arbitrary time tables.” He is the consummate instigator of arbitrary time tables: (1) returning sovereignty to Iraq = arbitrary deadline; (2) January 2005 Iraqi elections = arbitrary deadline; (3) completion of Iraqi “constitution” = arbitrary deadline (even though Iraq requested more time to work out some extremely important issues…which were never resolved). In his quest for “instant democracy”, Bush & Co. have ALWAYS set arbitrary time tables. Who the hell is he kidding?
November 30th, 2005 at 9:13 pmGeorge here and as your president I would like you to know that each and everyone of you will be recorded for your lack of suport and will get a oneway ticket to the closest FEMA internment camp near you and since you won’t be needing any of your internal organs they will be harvested for a tidy profit for Dick and me. hehehehehehehehehehe Oh by the way if you have not guessed by now 911 was a inside job. hahahahahahahhahahah
November 30th, 2005 at 9:16 pmthis is no longer a democracy, and the bushites have the power. besides, cheney, rumsfeld and their patsy “the President” have said they know better for this country than the majority. why bother wasting the paper, ink and glue for their wasteful deceit? we need the paper and the ink to fill out all the national debit memos.
November 30th, 2005 at 9:52 pmThe underlying assumption in much of this is that the administration is Queeny-the-lead-dog in running our country. That’s false. The US Constitution makes it very clear that the Congress has the responsibility for the national defense, to raise and support armies, to declare war, impose taxes, etc. and the President is the administrator and the troop commander in wartime. So any policy statements and strategies should be the responsibility of the Congress, as well as the duty to declare (and undeclare!) war.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:29 pmUnfortunately the Congress seems largely to have forfeited their responsibilities.
OK, folks. Yes, I’m a Republican. I’m hitting your website in prep for a discussion I will be having tomorrow with a Dem friend of mine — we’ve both agreed to read the NSVI tonight in prep. Actually, I don’t watch Fox, listen to Rush or O’Reilly, or particularly care for Karl Rove. I listen to NPR, watch CNN, read the Washington Post and frequently listen to “your” side in gathering info to form my own positions.
I’ll also admit that I cringe when I listen to GWB present/debate/speak. Most of us could probably out-spar him hung-over, on 2 hours of sleep, with the flu, and a broken filling in our mouth. GWB isn’t my favorite President, OK? I admit it.
I read all 98 posts above me (kudos to TM for posting #83 … most objective and constructive, in my opinion).
Tell me something — do you REALLY believe that George W. purposely deceived the American public (and the UN, and the Democrats, and foreign intelligence services) to drag us into armed conflict in Iraq to A. Avenge his father for Desert Storm, B. Faciliate Halliburton profit, C. Maximize US Oil Industry profits? Do you really think he and the “NeoCons” lied and have some grand plan to take office, use power, and gain personally, at the expense of the majority? Really?
I see so much venom and ire and Bush-hate that I wonder if both our sides haven’t completely lost focus and objectivity.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:38 pm“Tell me something — do you REALLY believe that George W. purposely deceived the American public (and the UN, and the Democrats, and foreign intelligence services) to drag us into armed conflict in Iraq to A. Avenge his father for Desert Storm, B. Faciliate Halliburton profit, C. Maximize US Oil Industry profits? Do you really think he and the “NeoCons†lied and have some grand plan to take office, use power, and gain personally, at the expense of the majority? Really?”
How many times do I need to type in “Yes”
I count 8
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
I will also add that Bush is as useless as a mans nipple.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:51 pmOK, Spudgie … then I have to put you in the Dem category similar to my Republican friends who are still convinced that Hillary had Vince Foster assassinated and Bill ran a drug operation in Arkansas to fund his gubenatorial campaigns. Sorry to cross over into your domain here.
But a word of advice — if you folks don’t get rid of Howie Dean, and the Massachussetts/SanFrancisco/NYC-centric Kennedy/Feinstein/Hillary face of your party, then you’re going to have to get ready to stomach another 7 years, not 3. Kerry was very wrong — the Democratic Party DOES need a major change in approach and platform.
November 30th, 2005 at 10:57 pm#103
I’ll agree on Hillary and Kerry. They are both Republican Lite. I like Dean, I don’t care if he screamed Ohio, Arkansas. I thought that was rather funny. It drives me nuts that people are considering Hillary for a run at President. I would rather have a real American, like Jack Murtha.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:04 pmAnd what’s with the “Spudgie.” I didn’t call you any names. And you people come on here and ask why you get attacked. It is because you do it first everytime.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:06 pmI think the most telling thing about the “NSVI” and the most obvious indicator that it is simply a Press release is that the bullet point icons on the pages are…wait for it…CHECK MARKS!
Establishing democracy “Check!”
Killing insurgents “Check!”
Winning hearts and minds “Check!”
That’s stunningly moronic
November 30th, 2005 at 11:19 pmGO READ 1984. This is it. History is what they say it is. Bush is rewriting history. Deny everything. Remember you can fool some of the people all of the time…it’s just too bad some of the people are the majority these days ( and from the south too.)
November 30th, 2005 at 11:20 pmMr. SpudgeBoy:
I really didn’t think I was attacking you by calling you “Spudgie” … c’mon, you use the name “SpudgeBoy” as your name. Is “Spudgie” so bad in comparison?
My apologies.
Wow … you think Kerry and Hillary are “Republican LITE?” I’m definitely not having you over for any barbeques.
Who do you want to see the DNC nominate for 2008? I mean, other than Murtha … because my friends will just trash him with some swiftboat story discrediting his own service and all.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:21 pmJohn,
Check these out:
What’s Wrong With Cutting and Running?
by Gen. (ret.) William E. Odom
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/odom.php?articleid=7487
and:
http://www.house.gov/ apps/ list/ press/ pa12_murtha/ pr051117iraq.html
WAR IN IRAQ — Congressman John Murtha
and finally:
IRAQ IS ASKING FOR US WITHDRAWAL
Iraqi Leaders Call for Pullout Timetable
Tuesday November 22, 2005
By SALAH NASRAWI
Associated Press Writer
CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - Leaders of Iraq’s sharply divided Shiites, Kurds and Sunnis called Monday for a timetable for the withdrawal of U.S.-led forces in the country and said Iraq’s opposition had a “legitimate right” of resistance.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:24 pmJohn,
November 30th, 2005 at 11:27 pmand don’t forget to click on my name
“I mean, other than Murtha … because my friends will just trash him with some swiftboat story discrediting his own service and all.”
You wouldn’t catch me hangin around anybody that would attack as distinguished a veteran and American as Jack Murtha.
I am not sure who I would back. Many are not even considerin it and the ones that are I don’t like. With that in mind, that is how the Democrats will not take over in ‘08.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:30 pmYou mean their plan is pragmatic and not theoretical?
Darn! What a bunch of bastards living in the real world where things don’t always go how they are written on paper!
November 30th, 2005 at 11:37 pmDon:
OK … I read the Odom article. Thanks. “Fair and Balanced,” for certain. And credible.
But I didn’t really post my comments on your board to get into a debate on “withdraw or not?” with you. You’re going to get too much agreement from me on the facts about things not going smoothly for it to be any fun for either of us.
I’m really genuinely curious, confused, concerned about ideas that I hear from the party representing half my neighbors laden with accusation of malicious intent — lies, deception and acts for the purpose of personal profit.
You can call Bush a dufus, buffoon, marblemouth, Silverspoon-raised undeserving whatever. But I just can’t really believe that YOU believe that “The Bushies,” “The NeoCons,” are the intentionalEVILdoers that you conclude as the reason we’re IN Iraq in the first place.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:39 pmreally now guys… did any of you REALLY expect Dubya to do anything other than what was done today?? really? The facts are clear to some of us, and not so much for others. Mainly, the people who “don’t want to believe it” are the people who need to WAKE UP. No one who knows the facts and incriminating evidence of the 9/11 conspiracy (notice lack of the word “theory”) could possibly have any respect for this administration. Let’s not only hope, but actually DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, so we can get these damn WAR Criminals out of office, and reclaim our Constitution before we all end up “chipped” in fear of FEMA camps and foreign troops roaming our neigborhoods in full assault gear, raiding our homes and taking our guns. And also, GOD DAMNIT, LEGALIZE CANNABIS! All this War bullshit is distracting us from some of the most important issues at home! I mean, seriously, Cannabis has never killed anyone who used it responsibly* and PEANUTS KILL MORE PEOPLE THAN CANNABIS(which has killed zero). Obviously, this atrocious debacle in the middle east is more important than cannabis prohibition, but C’MON PEOPLE!
November 30th, 2005 at 11:41 pmReally smart George, you are walking to towards the cliff edge but you want to stay the course.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:47 pmStop using the military for political speeches. As a retired military I’m pretty sure the soldiers are sick and tired of this war.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:49 pmHave any of you read the patriot act? I bet not… neither did congress… Anyone ever heard of “Hiding in plain site?” How about “smoking gun?” these are very important phrases that need not be overlooked in the quest for Truth.
Anyone ever heard of Alex Jones? how bout Jeff Rense? I and many others are much more likely to believe what the gov’t calls “misinformation” because it is so obvious the gov’t is giving us lies and impeding our investigations and press coverage of truth. Word of the Century, “TRUTH.” That’s what it all comes down to, and when we find/expose enough pieces of it, we will all know what must be done.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:05 amJohn,
Iraq has been a project of both parties, going back to Clinton’s airstrikes and embargo and the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998. The basic reason we’re in Iraq is empire and profit. And, again, for furher information on that, click on my name.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:22 amIraq was a project going back to ‘90. The oil companies some how got a private military force to destroy the Kuwaiti oil wells. They knew they would be contracted to rebuild them. They also knew that they could blame fleeing Iraqi forces for the damages. This is where the planning all begins. Make Saddam look like the worst possible guy to get public support. This war is going to be the epicenter of the middle east for the next 50 years if the US doesn’t get out. Control of the oil fields is the number one priority. Forget about democracy. Iraq will look like Palestine with check points and all that if Bush “stays the course.”
December 1st, 2005 at 1:04 amDon,
That’s all half truths. Actually rumsfeld sold tons of equipment and weapons (including WMDS) to Saddam under reagan, so to discuss clinton who was both measured and reasonable with any of these republican thieves is disenguous and wrong.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:13 amAnd don’t let the door slam you on the butt on the way out…
December 1st, 2005 at 2:30 amPATHETIC!!!!
Interesting.
December 1st, 2005 at 5:40 amBush finally publishes his plan and yet is still criticized. Now there’s a surprise.
What amazes me about you liberals is that nobody in this forum has ever served in Iraq. I double-dare anybody to poll the US military decisively and see what the numbers tell you. But the truth is just too painful for you to swallow. You people are the most dangerous sort alive. You’d rather LOSE a shooting war than have the Republicans re-elected. Does it not strike you as odd that the lib’s have a vested interest in an American DEFEAT in Iraq?
Grow up. Quit making decisions emotionally and use what’s left of your hippie-pot-smoking brains.
Mike is correct. All those who disagree with our wonderful leader is anti-American. It is only because of people like Mike that I have the strength to HATE the enemy. The enemy is all you liberal anti-american californian new york commies. You have a satanic plan for America to fail. See, Mike is correct. God has spoken to him and told him to destroy the Muslims!
December 1st, 2005 at 6:09 amMaybe that’s because I spent 10 years of my life in the middle east. 15 months of it fighting terrorists. I think I have an insight to the terrorist mind. Much more so than folks in this forum.
December 1st, 2005 at 6:30 amSo let’s have an honest debate here…no name calling, no whining, no labeling, shall we?
Question: what do you suppose would happen if the US pulled out of Iraq immediately?
Let’s review - First Mike says any dissenter has nothing more than a “hippie pot smoking brain” -
December 1st, 2005 at 7:04 amNow he says let’s have an honest debate - “no name calling - labeling” etc.
That’s rich coming from a supporter of a cocaine snorting draft dodging president.
Jesus - I thought all the hard hats had finally died off.
Too bad their spawn lives on.
This is great. America wants political pluralism in the world? The US of A?? How many parties you guys have again you can vote for? 2 and a half, right? We Belgians often mock the American political structure with the use of the word ‘tweestromenland’ which is a dutch term for Mesopotamia, the land at the Tigris and Eufrate. Mesopotamia is also called “the land of two streams” in Europe. American politics only has two (and maybe another half) streams: republican, democrat, liberal. I would think many Middle-East countries already have a better form of political pluralism than the USA. They probably even had it before the USA even existed! In Belgium we can choose between more than 7 parties and still I don’t believe there’s actual democracy here. For instance: on my ballot there’s no option “Anarchy”. Wouldn’t a real democracy give its voters the option to abandon all rules? IF not, to me, that’s not a democracy….which literally means: the people speak/decide/choose. Georgie reigns in the land of constitutional totalitarianism.
December 1st, 2005 at 7:13 am“It is only because of people like Mike that I have the strength to HATE the enemy”…. There’s no strength needed to hate someone. There’s strength needed to turn the other cheek, to fight hate with love… that’s strength. It takes strength NOT to take revenge. You must have it confused with fear and stupidity. There is no enemy but yourself. There is no threath but your so-called ‘elected’ president, starting wars over lies, doing nothing but self-enrichment, blaming everyone but himself, telling you whatever you want to hear.
December 1st, 2005 at 7:25 amI completely agree with Jericho.
December 1st, 2005 at 7:39 amSweet Jesus…….can anyone say Wag the Dog?
December 1st, 2005 at 8:56 amI could post a hundred links to the information, but that would only help if you were willing to learn the truth. So, when you’re ready to learn, go learn.
http://www.911wasalie.com/phpwebsite/index.php
http://www.911proof.com/
http://infowars.com/
DARE to think for yourselves!
December 1st, 2005 at 9:24 amI guess no one had the guts to answer my question. Maybe that’s because nobody can. Just more flaming. But that’s what I’d come to expect. Too bad no one here is willing to debate this with me. I’d looked forward to someone who can give me an honest position without getting emotional.
December 1st, 2005 at 10:01 amOh, and “infuriated by dubya/neocons”…are those links serious? I’ve seen better conspiracy theories from Michael Moore.
For “erskine”…I just looked at my original post and just couldn’t seem to find where I said that anybody who dissents is a ‘hippie pot smoking brain’. Check your facts. Oh…and you never answered my question.
For our Belgian friend…more than two parties is a fascinating system. I live in Germany and know well how the parliamentary system works. I think it’s great that people have seven or so choices in German politics. The only drawback is that when you get so many parties, you wind up with a recipe for gridlock…hence the current situation in Germany. It has it’s benefits, but often nobody holds a majority and getting any agenda put through government gets bogged down in the beaurocracy. Nonetheless, it has certain benefits. America’s two-party system isn’t perfect. But its tempered with the fact that some members of both parties tend to be moderates, and don’t always strictly vote the party line. It encourages people to look more closely at the candidate and not simply his party.
Once again, for all, I’ll pose the question…
What do you think would happen if the US pulled its troops out immediately?
I have bookmarked this page for my daily dose of comedy.
You guys are so blinded by your own hate you can’t see straight. What’s it like to have your life utterly defined by whom you hate? Must truly suck to be you.
Anyway, keep up the great posts. It’s great seeing you guys foaming at the mouth and utterly losing your minds screaming over cyberspace at each other.
Sigh, nothing more fun that checking out the daily rantings of the treason wing of our country… Oooh what a shame, I finished reading the comments. Come on guys! Ratchet it up a notch. You guys are getting repetitive!
Randy
December 1st, 2005 at 10:40 amI must say, SOME of the stuff in those links IS serious, and SOME (if not all) is highly debatable. Those who do not see the truth, or at least MOST of the truth, are those who CHOOSE not to see it.
Also, I have tremendous respect for the service members and veterans. Not because they are willing to kill whoever they are told to, but because they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for the sake of “freedom.”
However, they are being misused and lied to about many things. Our political leaders have hidden (or by now not-so-hidden) agendas and are performing many of the EXACT SAME ATROCITIES and WAR CRIMES that “they” accuse the “enemy” of perpetrating on their own people. I really can’t decide if Dubya is a clever mastermind, pretending to be a doofus as a cover, or if he is simply a puppet enjoying an entertaining illusion of power and authority… or perhaps it’s a mixture of the two. Perhaps he really is a mastermind… AND a doofus… which would explain how the “9/11 coverup” was so incompetantly Botched. If he was a real mastermind, he would have made sure there were no “unanswered questions.” So, he must be a doofus, who believes himself to be a mastermind… or perhaps that’s all part of the act. Maybe “they” want us to be totally confused and “at each others throats” over this whole mess, so “they” can come in and “save the day.” “They” of course are the obscure shadow government pushing for a Global Police State. They are orchestrating this whole thing, so that when we finally get rid of Dubya’s administration, we will be “begging” the shadow government to “save us.”
Also, i don’t profess to know exactly what would happen if we pulled all US military out of iraq completely right now… but i think i know what’s going to happen if we DON’T… and THAT is what’s more frightening.
ALSO… someone’s goose is going to be cooked over this whole DU weapons and NUpalm (new napalm… same effect, slightly different ingredients) and White Phosphorus shit. Nuclear fallout is already occuring gradually, because of excessive amounts of weapons experiments around the world, and on our own soil. All those vaporized particles of nuclear materials DON’T GO AWAY… they simply “dissipate” throughout the entire environment and make their ways into our food, water, air, and eventually cause cancer and genetic