Embedded TIME Reporter: Bush Lied In Speech Yesterday About Iraqi Security Forces
Embedded TIME Reporter: Bush Lied In Speech Yesterday About Iraqi Security Forces
Yesterday, President Bush claimed that Iraqi security forces “primarily led” the assault on the city of Tal Afar. Bush highlighted it as an “especially clear” sign of the progress Iraq security forces were making in Iraq.
The progress of the Iraqi forces is especially clear when the recent anti-terrorist operations in Tal Afar are compared with last year’s assault in Fallujah. In Fallujah, the assault was led by nine coalition battalions made up primarily of United States Marines and Army — with six Iraqi battalions supporting them…This year in Tal Afar, it was a very different story. The assault was primarily led by Iraqi security forces — 11 Iraqi battalions, backed by five coalition battalions providing support.
TIME Magazine reporter Michael Ware, who is embedded with the U.S. troops in Iraq who participated in the Tal Afar battle, appeared on Anderson Cooper yesterday. He said Bush’s description was completely untrue:
I was in that battle from the very beginning to the very end. I was with Iraqi units right there on the front line as they were battling with al Qaeda. They were not leading. They were being led by the U.S. green beret special forces with them.
Watch it:
Sen. John Warner (R-VA) who was also on Anderson Cooper yesterday said “I respect those journalists that embed themselves and I accept as a credible description what you’ve just put forward.”
Full Transcript:
COOPER: You know this is not one of the shows where we take sides. I really try to just look at facts on the ground, and the President in his speech talked about the battle of Tal Afar. And in his speech today, he said that it was led primarily by Iraqi security forces, eleven Iraqi battalions, backed by five coalition battalions providing support. He used this as compared to the battle of Fallujah as an example of how much better the Iraqis are doing. Earlier, I talked to Time Magazine’s Michael Ware, the Baghdad bureau chief who was embedded during the entire battle. I want to play you what he said about the Iraqi units he saw.
WARE: I was in that battle from the very beginning to the very end. I was with Iraqi units right there on the front line as they were battling with al Qaeda. They were not leading. They were being led by the U.S. green beret special forces with them. Green berets who were following an American plan of attack who were advancing with these Iraqi units as and when they were told to do so by the American battle planners. The Iraqis led nothing.
COOPER: Do you think the president was correct in saying that this was an Iraqi victory, that the Iraqis were leading the way?
WARNER: Well, I’ll let the commanders sort that out but I - first I respect those journalists that embed themselves and I accept as a credible description what you’ve just put forward. But you didn’t hear him say they cut and run like they did in Fallujah. You didn’t hear him say that the Iraqis dropped the arms. He said they were fighting. Now it may well have been that the battle plan was drawn up by the coalition forces, probably the U.S. leading.
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BushCo = Liars
December 1st, 2005 at 11:04 amPLEASE tell me that our Preznit didn’t just lie…Isn’t lying to the public a crime? I can’t imagine our Preznit lying to us. Unfathomable. I just won’t believe it. Couldn’t have happened.
Sarcasm thick….
December 1st, 2005 at 11:06 amEvery word out of Bush’s mouth is a lie. Heck, if he hiself said he was drinking again, I don’t think I’d believe it. However, if he said he was back on the junk…
December 1st, 2005 at 11:08 amLie? OMG they actually used the “L” word (and I don’t mean liberal). It’s about damn time!
December 1st, 2005 at 11:09 amThe more people in America see how much Bush lies and distorts reality the sooner they’ll rise up against him. I think we’re seeing some of it now with his poll numbers.
But I’ve got to say, in Europe, where the media is not slanted to the far right, they’ve known all along just how much Bush lies, spins, and distorts. It’s about time America wakes up to truth!
December 1st, 2005 at 11:11 amWhat he said wasn’t a lie. It is assumed that U.S. special forces will be embedded themselves in Iraqi units for a while. What the President was that it was an Iraqi unit action, not an American unit action and not an action led by the American military. This WAS an Iraqi orchestrated event, with just American soldiers helping the Iraqi force.
What the hell is wrong with this anyway Think Progress? Why do you want us and the Iraqis to lose and suck in Iraq? Do you think things will go better if a Hillary Clinton or Howard Dean junta are in power in D.C.? Regime change in Washington Think Progress doesn’t meat jack crap. Iraqis are going to still require our help and we should be proud of helping them. Stop continuing to sully our fellow citizens noble acts and the noble acts of the Iraqi people.
These are freaking human beings we are talkig about Think Progress!!!
December 1st, 2005 at 11:12 amWell, it depends on what you mean by “led”. Maybe Bush meant that the Iraqi battalions “led” the assault by being used as a human wave in the “lead”. Who knows? You know, plausible deniability…
December 1st, 2005 at 11:12 amHe must mean “primarily led” in the same way that Cheney meant it was “pretty much confirmed” that Atta met with Iraqi officials.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:12 amIn 1976. I had Just Joined the Army. April 5 1976.
its good to know what happened in 1976.
Where was Bush? Liar, liar.
The last time Bush’s jury duty surfaced in news media accounts sparked controversy involving several questions on his juror questionnaire that were left blank, including a question about previous arrests.
Bush was governor of Texas at the time and running for president. He managed to get excused from jury service, saying that, as governor, he might be asked to pardon the person on whose case he sat as juror.
It later was revealed that Bush had been arrested for DWI in Maine in 1976, and the Democratic Travis County attorney at the time charged in several media outlets that he thought Bush “used his position as governor†to avoid having to answer potentially embarrassing questions about his past.
There are no such probing questions on the basic McLennan County juror questionnaire.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:13 amSO i guess the genius Lyle is called the embedded journalist who was there a liar. Read what Ware said, moron!
December 1st, 2005 at 11:14 amWas Bush in the National Guard in 76??
December 1st, 2005 at 11:14 amLyle - “leading” implies, to me anyway, that the Iraqi army is developing battle plans, selecting targets, leading the assault with american troops supporting (most likely air power). That’s apparently not the case in Tal Afar. While iraqi troops participating is a good thing, it seems pretty clear they aren’t leading anything.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:15 amYou know what? The MSM needs to stop attacking our President. It hurts the morale of our troops for the President to be shown to be a bald faced liar. We are at war people. Truth isn’t important.
I wish the liberal elite media would report all of the times that “W” hasn’t lied to us. Aren’t those times just as important? That’s why I watch Fox News. They are so fair and balanced that every time “W” is caught in a lie they remind us that somewhere in time a Democrat has lied too. Both lies cancel each other out people, so what’s the big deal?
*tongue firmly in cheek*
December 1st, 2005 at 11:16 amWhat he said wasn’t a lie. It is assumed that U.S. special forces will be embedded themselves in Iraqi units for a while. What the President was that it was an Iraqi unit action, not an American unit action and not an action led by the American military. This WAS an Iraqi orchestrated event, with just American soldiers helping the Iraqi force.
What the hell is wrong with this anyway Think Progress? Why do you want us and the Iraqis to lose and suck in Iraq? Do you think things will go better if a Hillary Clinton or Howard Dean junta are in power in D.C.? Regime change in Washington Think Progress doesn’t meat jack crap. Iraqis are going to still require our help and we should be proud of helping them. Stop continuing to sully our fellow citizens noble acts and the noble acts of the Iraqi people.
These are freaking human beings we are talkig about Think Progress!!!
Comment by Lyle
Bravo. Well said. Right on target…..but a waste of time. These are traitors here. Walking Dead Losers. They know exactly what they are doing and saying. Make no mistake about it.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:17 amTime magazine is not a reliable source.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:18 amGeirgie or Ware? Hmmm.
I believe Ware. I think he’s been embedded since the start of the war. He’s a passionate reporter and is not afraid to report the truth.
Georgie’s been a liar since the day I first heard of him. He lies when it’s easy enough to check on it, and he’s not smart enough to try and keep track of his lies. His only passion is power.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:18 amWhat will we tell the children?
December 1st, 2005 at 11:20 amThis is one of the most blatent lies bush has made and he has been caught out, what else will it take, but unfortunately the word “lie” did not appear in this transcript (no q-time at work)
December 1st, 2005 at 11:21 amso though it is not a “mis-comuniction” or “not revealing all of the facts” or “not being entirely true” and in fact a bold face lie he said during a pr speech that did not meet the goals it set out to communicate (strategy for victory, goals for success in iraq) we still need to start seeing that word being (correctly) used in the MSM media, by liberal pundints & politicians, what other new terms can they come up with until a pile of $hit is called by it’s name
You know what? The MSM needs to stop attacking our President. It hurts the morale of our troops for the President to be shown to be a bald faced liar. We are at war people. Truth isn’t important.
I wish the liberal elite media would report all of the times that “W†hasn’t lied to us. Aren’t those times just as important? That’s why I watch Fox News. They are so fair and balanced that every time “W†is caught in a lie they remind us that somewhere in time a Democrat has lied too. Both lies cancel each other out people, so what’s the big deal?
*tongue firmly in cheek*
Comment by Str8UpNoChaser
Anyone who can call the President a liar over this issue has his *head firmly up his ass*.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:22 amall you rightwing nutheads. where were you in 76?
In 1976. I had Just Joined the Army. April 5 1976.
its good to know what happened in 1976.
Where was Bush? Liar, liar.
The last time Bush’s jury duty surfaced in news media accounts sparked controversy involving several questions on his juror questionnaire that were left blank, including a question about previous arrests.
Bush was governor of Texas at the time and running for president. He managed to get excused from jury service, saying that, as governor, he might be asked to pardon the person on whose case he sat as juror.
It later was revealed that Bush had been arrested for DWI in Maine in 1976, and the Democratic Travis County attorney at the time charged in several media outlets that he thought Bush “used his position as governor†to avoid having to answer potentially embarrassing questions about his past.
There are no such probing questions on the basic McLennan County juror questionnaire.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:23 am#13, your wrong…. The war was declared officially over many many months ago. Unless we have started a new war that I am not aware of?
We are battling insurgents, but it is not DECLARED a war. Maybe you should get your facts right before you attach people.
Same goes for #14, and #15
December 1st, 2005 at 11:25 amKeep lying and spinning pathetic repukes… your judgement day is fast approaching.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:26 amWhat he said wasn’t a lie. It is assumed that U.S. special forces will be embedded themselves in Iraqi units for a while. What the President was that it was an Iraqi unit action, not an American unit action and not an action led by the American military. This WAS an Iraqi orchestrated event, with just American soldiers helping the Iraqi force.
Comment by Lyle — December 1, 2005 @ 11:12 am
Rewriting things aren’t we Lyle? Did you even read what the embedded reporter said? It’s amazing to me that you rely more on your ability to read Dumbya’s mind (since you claim to know what he really meant) than the eyewitness account of a reporter who was right there for the whole battle. Genius way of ignoring the truth.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:26 amMorgan,
I think the Iraqis did select the targets and that is what Bush meant. A couple of Green Berets may have ‘led’ them, but some Iraqi military or government official orchestrated the attack.
This is something that did not happen last year or the year before. Seems like progress to me.
Lets be proud of our Green Berets and the Iraqis for their actions. It’s crap that people would degrade their actions for cheap attacks at the President. I know Think Progress goes looking for ways to belittle the President and belittle our efforts and the Iraqi peoples’ efforts in Iraq.
These people are trying to save lives and to build a federal Iraq, one without a jackbooted thug as its leader. This a progressive and wonderful thing we and the Iraqis are trying to do. Do no sully it anymore Think Progress. You freaking sit up in you New York City apartments, where you don’t live your lives, and you tell other people they suck and that their lives are worthless, because all that matters is making Bush look bad.
Shame, shame, shame… and freaking degrading.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:26 amBUSH IS A LIAR,LIAR!
Posted by Dahr_Jamail at 03:35 PM
September 15, 2005
December 1st, 2005 at 11:27 amMeanwhile, in Iraq…
For the last several days at least 6,000 US soldiers along with approximately 4,000 Iraqi soldiers (Read-members of the Kurdish Peshmerga and Shia Badr Army) were laying siege to the city of Tal-Afar, near Mosul in northern Iraq. It is estimated that 90% of the residents have left their homes because of the violence and destruction of the siege, as well as to avoid home raids and snipers.
#19, have you searved in the military? I have, and to lead means to be directing and in charge.
According to the Embedded Journalist, the Iraqis were following. There is a huge difference in participating and leading.
Maybe you should pull out a dictionary and learn what the definitions of these words, which appears to be to big for you to understand, and see just what “lead” really means.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:28 amTime magazine is not a reliable source.
Comment by wwallace — December 1, 2005 @ 11:18 am
That’s just how neocons want you to think, but you’ll be ignorant about a lot of goings on if you solely rely on partisan news reporting. The truth is the truth no matter who tells it. In order to keep their followers from having access to the truh, neocons have demonized all media outlets that have the audacity to actually question and challenge them instead of blindly believing their every word. It works for them because most of their followers refuse to believe something unless it comes out of a neocons mouth. Ignorance must be bliss.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:32 amLyle,
December 1st, 2005 at 11:33 amyou suck and your life is worthless.
-The residents of NYC
So the Iraqis “led” the attack the same way that the missile defense tests are “finding” their target. Great. Meanwhile, in the real world…
December 1st, 2005 at 11:34 amThis is for you Lyle. Readup before commenting.
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/ weblog/ archives/ dispatches/ 000278.php
December 1st, 2005 at 11:35 amLyle & I-Right_I: Why are you lemmings even here? If you believe “lefties” to be traitors, wouldn’t you believe consorting with traitors, itself, to be a traitorous act?
Just go back to the limbaugh worship boards and let the fine people here discuss their opinions in peace. Grow up, trolling is for idiots, retards and immature brats.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:36 amThis isn’t an attack on the troops. The first step to success in Iraq is acknowledging the reality on the ground. Yesterday Bush said the Iraqis were in the lead in Tel-Afar.
It turns out that’s not true. Even Sen. Warner accepted Michael Ware’s report.
The best way we can honor our troops is to be honest with them. Speaking at the Naval Academy yesterday, Bush fell short.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:38 am#27 Actually it’s because of being caught repeatedly skewing the facts. Just like MoveOn.org yesterday. First they picture British troops while saying their Americans. Then they photoshop the picture to cover their mistake. Once caught at altering the photo they remove it from their site. You just keep getting caught trying to deceive and that is why so many do not trust those media outlets who have a history of distorting the truth to fulfil their own agenda.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:39 amAnyone who can call the President a liar over this issue has his *head firmly up his ass*.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — December 1, 2005 @ 11:22 am
I would expect a respose like this from you. I guess Michael Ware’s head is fimly up his ass. But apparently he can still see the action going on around him well enough to call Dumbya on his blatant attempt at hoodwinking the American people once again.
It’s obvious that you won’t believe anything unless it comes straight from Dumbya’s mouth. I won’t say your head is up your ass, but since it seems to be totally devoid of any semblance of intelligence it really doesn’t matter.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:39 am#21
Please note the line *tongue firmly in cheek*
December 1st, 2005 at 11:40 amPoor Warner keeps trying…Anyone notice how short he was with Matthews yesterday? WEE!
December 1st, 2005 at 11:40 amI would like to commend Think Progress for finally using the words “Bush Lied”
December 1st, 2005 at 11:40 amDon’t know why it’s news worthy exposing that Bush@co lied…now if it was proven they told the truth on something..now that would be news worthy
December 1st, 2005 at 11:41 amFunny how a site with the name ‘Think Progress’ just can’t stand it when progress is made in Iraq.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:41 amI believe the sky is green, the grass purple, and the sun is black because my brave leaders told me so. Having something to believe in makes me happy !
December 1st, 2005 at 11:41 am“Why should we hear about body bags and deaths,” Barbara Bush said on ABC’s “Good Morning America” on March 18, 2003. “Oh, I mean, it’s not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?”
those are haunting words these days. ‘compassionate conservatives’ have a knack at shoving their feet into their mealy-mouthed pieholes.
If I were a, ahem, ‘republican,’ I’d start listening and stop talking.
intelligence is stupidity
December 1st, 2005 at 11:41 amCan anyone remember, when the Green Berets were ‘leading’ South Vietnamese units into battle in the 60s? I watched that John Wayne film and I couldn’t tell what was going on or why Mr Sulu was in it.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:42 am“Why do you want us and the Iraqis to lose and suck in Iraq?”
I don’t know that that’s the case. I just don’t care for freebies going to Muslims.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:43 amGood on Michael Ware! We need more reporters who will step and call this crap for what it really is: Lies.
Let me repeat that and more plainly:
George Bush is a liar.
Didn’t hear it the first time?
George Bush is a LIAR!
LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! LIAR!
You can quote me.
Last Dem In Norman
December 1st, 2005 at 11:44 amJust a little mix-up. A Misunderstanding. Maybe a mistake. No big deal. We all make em, right?
-
December 1st, 2005 at 11:46 amI think this all depends on what the proper definition of ‘is’ is. Err, what the proper definition of ‘led’ is.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:48 am#33
Riddle me this then Ben. How many more times does this administration need to be caught lying before you begin to question their collective credibility? Why do they get a pass, but the MSM does not? I await your response.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:49 amJudd, where are the other newsworthy comments from Mr Ware about the levels of trust that US forces have in the Iraqis. And also in the risks and barriers the Iraqis have to getting training. Can you find the rest of the transcript?
December 1st, 2005 at 11:50 amWhy does Think Progress want us to fail in Iraq? #14 You are so correct. Liberals will be on the wrong side of history again with their stance on this war.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:55 am#44 — LastDem, being a liar as a President became part of the job description during the Clinton era.
Speaking of Clinton, let’s look at how he justified the Kosovo initiative. The Orange County Register, in a Nov. 22, 1999, editorial, said, “Months after the bombing has ceased, United Nations and European Union investigations have bolstered what critics had argued: NATO’s estimates of Serbian genocide against the Kosovars were greatly overblown. Many observers now think the inflated numbers simply were part of the U.S.-led propaganda effort to build support for the war.
” . . . The latest evidence suggests that fewer than 3,000 Kosovars were murdered — horrifying, yes, but not many more than the number of Serbs who were killed by NATO bombing attacks on Yugoslavia, roughly estimated between 3,000 and 5,000 soldiers and civilians.”
Does this mean that Clinton “lied, people died”?
December 1st, 2005 at 11:55 amhttp://dahrjamailiraq.com/ weblog/ archives/ dispatches/ 000276.php#more
December 1st, 2005 at 11:56 amAgain like Fallujah, most of the families who fled are staying in refugee camps outside the city in tents amidst horrible conditions in the inferno-like heat of the Iraqi summer.
The LA Times reported that Ezzedin Dowla, a Turkmen leader in the area said, “Families are homeless and the government has not provided any shelter, food or drink for them.†Nor has the US military.
The targets of this military operation are the Sunni Turkmen who are politically on the side of the Sunni Arabs. Most Sunnis will be voting against the constitution during the coming vote of October, 15th.
The Cheney Administration is desperate for something it can spin as “good news†from Iraq; thus, it most certainly behooves them to have the referendum on the constitution to boast about. But in order to do so, the voting ability and power of the Sunni (and Sunni Turkmen) must be severely compromised, as well as punishment meted out for rightfully assuming what will be a Sunni no-vote on the constitution.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:57 am#50
#44 — LastDem, being a liar as a President became part of the job description during the Clinton era.
So your acknowledging that this president lied. This is a step in the right direction. Proud of you.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:59 amFamilies are homeless and the government has not provided any shelter, food or drink for them.â€
December 1st, 2005 at 11:59 amRegarding this Liberals-are-traitors claim: my own humble two cents is:
No one can be called a traitor for expressing an opinion, no matter how stupid or ill-informed.
For example, if Cheney:
sincerely believed that Saddam had vast stockpiles of WMDs despite the inspectors’ contradictions,
if he thought the aluminum tubes were specific evidence of an active Iraqi nook-yuh-lur program, rather than a bit of old and previously discredited information as was proven by investigation,
if he truly believed we would be greeted as liberators by the Iraqis despite a chorus of expert opinions to the contrary;
then he would not technically be lying and not technically indictable and therefore not treasonous; just a stupid man stretching the truth in accordance with his stupid sincere beliefs.
So, my right wing friends (and I mean that unironically since we’re all part of the large mosaic of American opinion and civic life, and therefore brothers/sisters in a grand tradition of freedom), why do YOU insist on calling liberals traitors? Show the evidence before you make a spurious claim. It seems that you define a traitor as an individual who does not share your point of view.
My 7-year-old daughter likes Hilary Duff. I don’t. What, does that make one of us a traitor?
Your name-calling only diminishes your dignity and increases doubts about your judgment. It accomplishes nothing.
Please note that I have called no one any names here, or in any of my previous posts.
Love to all.
“Say a prayer for the common foot soldier.” (Name the reference and win a prize!)
December 1st, 2005 at 12:01 pm#50
This is the same rationale that Fox uses nightly
“Well, we may have lied… but look who else lied too!”
December 1st, 2005 at 12:01 pmThe postings of I-Right and Lyle should remind us how attached the neo cons are to their talking points, regardless of actual facts available to them. What’s interesting news to me is that Senator Warner is able to look fairly objectively at facts and process them in a way that’s not blindly partisan. In the past, that would just be Senatorial behavior, nowadays, it’s almost heroic to stand up and not spout party propaganda.
If more Republicans did some actual thinking, (I mean, of course, Republicans who aren’t being indicted,) we could find a bipartisan way to end this fvcking war and restore the people’s faith in government. Good for you, Senator Warner.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:02 pmI thought we were talking about Bush, not Clinton. Anyway, it is pretty clear the the Preznit was mislead by the same faulty intelligence that the rest of us had. How could he know that American forces were really taking the lead? He is more in the dark than we are.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:04 pmThe Republicans: They impeach lying Presidents, don’t they?
December 1st, 2005 at 12:04 pmBob Schieffer on Imus this morning quoted a CBS reporter who said the Iraqis were not protecting the road from airport to Baghad, Americans are.
September 30th the generals told Senate Armed Services Committee there was ONE Iraqi batallion trained.
Yesterday they claim 210,000 Iraqis troops trained.
Am I missing something here, or is Bush & Company still lying?
December 1st, 2005 at 12:06 pmFamilies are homeless and the government has not provided any shelter, food or drink for them.†Nor has the US military.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:06 pmWare also had choice words for Lieberman.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:07 pmcynicon implant
December 1st, 2005 at 12:08 pmKeeping in mind that lying is a ’sin’…are you employed or do you receive anything from the Bush administration for spouting their talking points? How is it that you don’t have anything to say other than the same old BS?
The reason I suspect that you will answer affirmatively to the above question is that their are very few ‘actual’ people out there that are as ignorant and uniformed as you appear to be.
I think perhaps the Iraqis “led” the action in the same sense that Chef’s all-black unit “led” the US forces against Canada in “Operation Get Behind the Darkies.”
Dubya is obviously a “South Park Republican.”
December 1st, 2005 at 12:09 pmhttp://dahrjamailiraq.com/ weblog/ archives/ dispatches/ 000278.php
December 1st, 2005 at 12:09 pmDamn them evildoer embedded journalists, foiled again! They are gettin’ in the way of freedom! Can anyone arrange a speedy drive through at a U.S. checkpoint for Mr. Ware?
December 1st, 2005 at 12:09 pm#47 So in other words you are acknowledging that the MSM engages in dishonesty on a regular basis? This is a step in the right direction. Proud of you.
I fail to see how Bush’s claim that the Iraquis “lead” is such a distortion. 11 battalions vs 5? That sounds like a very good progress to me. But it reveals how painful it is for those who want so badly for us to fail. The willingness to latch on to a technicality of description to call it a lie. The people he was speaking to are not so dumb as not to know that the Iraqis are being provided guidance by our military. But again, your need to call it a lie and make that the key component of the speech shows your hypocrisy.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:13 pmSeptember 15, 2005
December 1st, 2005 at 12:13 pmMeanwhile, in Iraq…
For the last several days at least 6,000 US soldiers along with approximately 4,000 Iraqi soldiers (Read-members of the Kurdish Peshmerga and Shia Badr Army) were laying siege to the city of Tal-Afar, near Mosul in northern Iraq. It is estimated that 90% of the residents have left their homes because of the violence and destruction of the siege, as well as to avoid home raids and snipers.
there are still people left that believe even one word out of that monkey-faced son-of-a-bush`s mouth…? i have some lakefront property in the desert i would like to sell you…
December 1st, 2005 at 12:14 pmIn response to Lyle,
You said, “I think the Iraqis did select the targets and that is what Bush meant. A couple of Green Berets may have ‘led’ them, but some Iraqi military or government official orchestrated the attack.”
“I think.” That is how your response starts. By that very fact, it is fallacious.
Only a reasonable person would consider a recollection by someone who was there as true.
I do not know why you defend the President. He plays to the mob. Americans love to hear words such as “freedom” and as of late, “evil-doers.” Both of which play on the hearts of Americans so that they take pride in their country and stand behind the President.
Furthermore, I do not know why you are so afraid of criticism, as if it were evil. Your ignorance to seeing anything wrong with the President’s actions or words makes you quite foolish.
Without informing of faults, we can progress little. By ignoring them, YOU are helping the enemy.
I think that in the end we will have succeeded in creating a very large group of people who hate America (i.e. the insurgency that probably had little malevolence earlier, but now has fully immersed itself in it by the Bush’s nefarious plans).
Think for yourself. This country has its qualities, as does any country, but it is not perfect. Do not pretend that our leaders are, either.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:14 pm6,000 US soldiers along with approximately 4,000 Iraqi soldiers
December 1st, 2005 at 12:15 pmI’m a liberal, and I do NOT want America to “lose” in Iraq. The war was a bad idea to begin with, it was NEVER a “nobel cause”, and George W. Bush lied his head off to justify going to a war that he wanted well before 9/11.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:15 pmWe are there now, and we have to make sure that we get a best result from what we are doing. Victory, no matter how you slice it, means our soldiers get to come home. A permanent presence in Iraq can never, ever be considered a success.
Finally, by starting this ill-conceived war, by lying about his motivations, and by mismanaging the war from day one, George W. Bush has forfeited his right to be in charge of this war. Whether he gets impeached or not, he can no longer be allowed to make further decisions regarding our military in Iraq. The recent senate resolution requiring him to report to congress is a step in the direction of taking the war out of Bush’s incompetent hands getting some adult supervision over this horrible debacle.
We can still “win” in Iraq by carefully managing what is done, and how we leave. But leave we must.
Yo, Freedom,
We GOT it, already!
Stop beating your ONE post into the ground!
I swear, sometimes you are just as bad as the trolls.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:16 pm#69
December 1st, 2005 at 12:17 pmAnd our troops who were in that operation are not so dumb to not realize that Bush’s misleading description show how desperate he really is. Talk about hurting the morale of the troops. They know the deal and they know Bush is not being truthful.
Just go back to the limbaugh worship boards and let the fine people here discuss their opinions in peace. Grow up, trolling is for idiots, retards and immature brats.
Comment by Who
They come here to study intelligent discourse,in hopes that they may replicate it in the future.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:17 pmsick of re-posts!
December 1st, 2005 at 12:19 pmWe GOT it,
But do they got it?
answer is no, They do not Get it!
If they got it, They would NOt be Supporting this Immoral war. Right?
Feel Free to correct me if I am Wrong.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:21 pm#76 You have no idea about the troops. I know people serving and I read from various sources that tell a much different story. All you are doing is following the talking points of the antiwar crowd. Just make false statements and make them often is the their strategy. Most of the troops know the mission, know the truth, and do not like the way that it is being distorted by the MSM.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:22 pmYou ARE!
December 1st, 2005 at 12:23 pmFine, they don’t get it. You think saying the same thing 50x over is going to do it?
NO!!!
It just pisses the rest of us off.
Think of something ELSE to add to the discussion, or kindly keep your fingers OFF the keyboard.
Updated: 7:43 a.m. ET Dec. 1, 2005
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Insurgents attacked several U.S. bases and government offices with mortars and rockets Thursday before dispersing in the capital of western Iraq’s Anbar province, residents said.
News of the attack came as Iraq’s interior minister dismissed the senior inspector in charge of human rights on Thursday in connection with a scandal involving the torture of dozens of prisoners at a Baghdad prison, an official close to the minister said.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:25 pmThank You, #81
December 1st, 2005 at 12:25 pmWhy is this hard … Bush is comparing this battle (Tal Afar) with last years Fallujah. Fallujah = 9 battalions of US to 6 battalions of Iraqis, a pluarality of US forces. Tal Afar = 11 battalions of Iraqis to 5 battalions of US troops. The majority of soldiers in this battle were Iraqis … in that sense, they led.
This entire argument is ridiculous. Just because you think Bush lies, does not mean you must look for said lies in everything he says.
In addition, a battalion has between 300 to 1000 soldiers … that means this one reporter feels that he can speak correctly on the activities of 4,800 to 16,000 soldiers during an engagement in a town that is at least 3 to 4 square miles in size … especially if he was “imbedded” (ie. with the grunts, not the commanders)
December 1st, 2005 at 12:26 pmBetter to be Pissed Off rather than Pissed On , as I allways say.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:27 pm#69
I see that you hurdled all over the question about the current administration. How many more times do they have to get caught lying before they lose credibility with you? You asserted that the MSM engages in dishonesty, I never said that. I only used your assertions about the MSM in comparison to the lies told by this administration.
Mr. Bush, in his speech made false claims about the readiness and capabilities of the Iraqi Army in order to gain political footing. Does it not matter that he lied? Does it only matter when a Democrat lies?
Do you really believe that a reporter embedded with our military who sees the day to day horror WANTS them to fail? Do you really believe that Democrats, republicans and independents that are demanding answers and accountability from this administration WANT our military to fail? What I wish Ben, is that you would become diligent in seeking out truth, just as if a Democrat were in the White House right now.
I agree that the audience wasn’t dumb. I don’t know them to call them that. What I will say is that his audiences are enraptured with him almost to the point of pledging allegiance to Bush rather than the flag. Their emotions about this President are all tied up in their faith. believing in Bush is akin to believing in a higher power. I firmly believe that that is one of the reasons folks on the right refuse to admit that this administration is dishonest. To admit that would cause them to question their faith in Bush and the God that they believe brought him to office.
BTW, that technicality argument is hilarious considering that Clinton was impeached on a technicality. But then again, he’s a democrat.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:28 pmliberals don`t want america to fail…bush has already taken care of that…liberals want bush and co. to pay for their mistakes…and indeed they will…and that`s no lie…
December 1st, 2005 at 12:29 pm#84, where in the world are you getting your numbers from??
December 1st, 2005 at 12:30 pmTal Afar = 11 battalions of Iraqis to 5 battalions of US troops. The majority of soldiers in this battle were Iraqis … in that sense, they led.
September 15, 2005
Meanwhile, in Iraq…
For the last several days at least
Ben=Ben Ginsberg, no doubt.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:30 pm- They say you’re a sack of crap you nazi scum!
- Comment by Ryan Neat
Eloquent and insightful as always, Ryan. There are soldiers in support of the war, and there are soldiers against it … trying to prove which side is right by claiming that the “soldiers” agree with them makes zero sense.
- Go to operationtruth.org - it’s run by REAL american soldiers
- Comment by Ryan Neat
Real soldiers = the ones that agree with Ryan I guess.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:31 pm#89 - Scroll to the top
Or do we think Bush is lying about the number of battalions …
December 1st, 2005 at 12:34 pmOh boy, Jocko-Homo is here again to learn from our different perspectives. NOT.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:35 pmHee. That really stirred up the trolls.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:40 pmLyle, Wake up and die right. You are grasping at straws. Bush lies, get it? And you, pathetic turd that you are, excuse him. Go bury your head up Robert Novak’s behind!
December 1st, 2005 at 12:40 pm#96,
THAT is a scary image.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:41 pmOops. They’ve done it, now…. gone and pissed Ryan off!
How stupid can they be?
I, meanwhile, sit at my screen seeing David Banner (aka Ryan Neat) get pushed one too many times and turn into “The Hulk”!
What’s so funny is that they have the NERVE to get upset when he finally DOES go off on them!!!!
Like they don’t know what’s gonna happen….?
Too Funny.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:44 pmto all who support this administration:
December 1st, 2005 at 12:45 pmbush could have been talking about eating a pretzel, regardless he still lied…this is not a treasonous post, but lying to the people regarding actual accounts in iraq to better your position is treasonous and a lie, you lying little lier of a president
“Time magazine is not a reliable source.” - wwallace
Well, perhaps you would like to point to a single totally factual source with no-spin that covers everything…
I don’t believe it exists.
As a result I use as many sources as I can and look for corroboration. Perhaps you should try the same. The BBC has some interesting reporting with a completely different bias.
Z.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:47 pmT- The point is that soldiers in the field disagree with you and your fascist friends - your inability to recognize, or give credence to that is expected by someone of your limited and diminished capacity though. Partisan hacks always respond in a lopsided fashion.
- Comment by Ryan
Slow down and read, Ryan. What I said was that soldiers both agree and disagree with the Iraq invasion. Your above statement is retarded … “the soldiers in the field disagree with me” - sure, some do, and there are plenty who disagree with you. It’s a stupid argument … why keep repeating it.
- And thanks for proving my point that you are a hypocrite by so obviously and passive aggressively attacking me and those soldiers.
- - Comment by Ryan
What are you talking about? I haven’t attacked you (and certainly not the soldiers) … stating what you say is ridiculous and ill-informed is no attack. As opposed to saying “You’re a transparent and irrelevant fool as always”.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:47 pmGrow up …
Yeah, but Clinton lied about having sex. So nyeah.
Good thing we spent so many millions of taxpayer dollars to uncover every last detail of that act. It sure made a helluva lot of difference to national and world affairs, didn’t it.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:49 pm#89 - Scroll to the top
Or do we think Bush is lying about the number of battalions …
Who Is “we” in that statement?
I Personnaly Do Believe Bush Lies ALL Of the TIME!
December 1st, 2005 at 12:49 pmNobody died when Clinton lied! Remember, he’s the guy that was impeached for just lying about a b.j.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:50 pm#92.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:50 pmWhy do You use the word”WE”?
Who in YOUR Opinion is the “WE”?
It Certainly is not “ME”!
Hee. Like hitting a paper wasp nest
December 1st, 2005 at 12:51 pmwith a stick or throwing a stink bomb under the
troll bridge.
These desperate troll pets of ours are just laughable. I can’t even reply to their posts. They are somewhere between sinister and ignorant. They live in a different world and choose to see things as they wish. They only listen to what they want to hear.
Republicans are on the way down the path they have created for themselves. Do unto others, live by the sword, etc. Karma wins every single time and they are getting back just what they give. It’s a nice balance we have going here and I’m kind of (in a really ugly way which I acknowlege is wrong) enjoying their posts. The more they post, the stronger the stench on their party.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:52 pm#96,
Jay, what is your problem? Take you ignorant and uneducated thoughts to some other site. If you want to disagree with me, disagree with me, but don’t just attack me personally. Say something intelligent for change. Pretend for the sake of argument that you are educated.
Personal attacks are very common here at Think Progress, especially against people who support the War in Iraq, but is expected from a group of people who just want to believe the cliches they were conditioned to believe by so-called thoughtful intelletuals and others.
Iraqi soldiers are dying to protect their citizens and are dying to make Iraq a better place. Let us respect that and not use their noble failing to trash a noble effort.
We are talking about human beings who do not want to live under the control of a jackbooted thug. That’s progress Think Progress. Living in a world with Saddam Hussein is liberal and progressive. It is a beautiful thing that the communist party is back in IRaq yelling crap at the U.S. and anybody else it disagrees with. Under Saddam they were dead and exiled.
I thank Bush everyday for the progres in Iraq, and Think Progress should too.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:52 pmPresident Bush did us a great service in his Plan for Victory speech. He has offered us a clear roadmap out of the quagmire of his administration. The phrase “as long as I am Commande in Chief” is the key. We must impeach Buch and Cheney at once for the lies which got us into this mess. Once the religious fanatics and neocon chickenhawks are safely imprisoned, we can begin to rebuild our international reputation and bring rational sanity to bear in terms of foreign policy, scientific research and environmental policy.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:52 pmNobody cares, trolls. You are the party crashers.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:54 pmTrue Blue… It would be nice if one of them would actually stand up for what they say… I’m still waiting for IRI to try and prove that he is older, wiser and more intelligent than me. As he claimed…
I’m willing to accept his challenge, but he now refuses like the yellow-bellied coward that he is.
Z.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:54 pm- Oops. They’ve done it, now…. gone and pissed Ryan off!
How stupid can they be? I, meanwhile, sit at my screen seeing David Banner (aka Ryan Neat) get pushed one too many times and turn into “The Hulkâ€!
A perfectly apt description … the Hulk had no anger management skills and neither does Ryan. I continue to wonder why Ryan even gets mad … if he’s so on the side of truth, then what I say shouldn’t disturb him in the least. Unfortunately, when he does start spouting off, his arguments devolve considerably …
December 1st, 2005 at 12:56 pmWhen will the neo-conservatives admit that the Chimp’s game of toy soldiers is purely and solely the first chess move on the Project for the New American Century’s chess board?
This extremely flawed plan is already collapsing in the 1st inning- the American public is waking up, the GOP lies and talking points are falling flat, and the overuse and abuse of our military personnel will be their ultimate undoing.
The most worn out, cop-out excuse I’m tired of hearing is the old standard: “We’re spreading freedom, and liberating the Iraqis from a brutal dictator”. Jesus. You neo-cons don’t give damn about Iraqi’s. Wasn’t that revision number 2 or 3 of why we went in there? Wasn’t the original design the WMD’s? The neo-cons talk about “re-writing history”, hell, Bush has been re-writing history from the day we declared there was no WMD.
And quit bringing up Clinton. He hasn’t been in office for 5 years now- take responsibility for your failures. I know taking accountability is not your strong suit, but today would be a good day to start.
Hypocritical bastards.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:57 pmHi Z,
December 1st, 2005 at 12:57 pmYeah, he always runs and hides, or simply changes names, rather than answer your questions.
Dopes, all of them.
Justin,
I wrote I think, because the Iraqi government is ordering Iraqi and American soldiers into battle. That doesn’t mean that you’re right to say that Iraqis didn’t do that in this case. You don’t know that either… do you?
Furthermore, Bush is not perfect. He has made mistakes. I think him to be ignorant of a lot of things to say the least. Mistakes are human though and even with a Democrat in office he or she would make mistakes and look stupid at times. I was specifically refering to what this thread is about, unlike you who doesn’t understand that. Bush is right to say that Iraqis ‘led’ the fight. A couple of Green Berets assissting the Iraqis doesn’t constitute the Iraqis not “leading”. We all know that our soldiers embedded with theirs to help them. What is important is that in this battle it was IRaqis who did the fighting, not an American unit. That was Bush’s point and lets not take it out of context, just because Think Progress hates Bush.
Don’t ever accuse me again of not thinking Bush is incapable of wrongs or faults or mistakes. Got it?
Understand what people are saying or keep your mouth shut.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:59 pmIf Saddam was such a b@st@rd, why did we cozy up to him back during the reign of Reagan? Why did The Don supply him with all that nasty sh!t to use on “his” people?
And why Iraq? Why don’t we go overthrow all the horrible despots world-wide? What’s so special about Iraq?
Uh-oh, it looks like Israel has WMDs, and they have a history of aggressive & belligerent behavior. Guess we’d better crank up an invasion force…
December 1st, 2005 at 12:59 pmOK, Giac
You don’t seem to understand.
The Hulk always went after “the bad guys”
Doh!
December 1st, 2005 at 12:59 pmBush and his henchman,(Rummy, Cheny, Rove), continue to feed the public lies and distortions without blnking and eye. They couldn’t care less that these falsified statements they perpetrate on us have been repeatedly shown to be totally false. Bush has become a psychotic, (maybe he always was), and will sacrifice this country ’s creditability for his own ego.
I fear this person will continue his “jihad” regardless of the cost or loss of American and lives until 2008.
… think Impeachment …
December 1st, 2005 at 1:01 pmLyle, you might want to proofread your posts. Particularly if you are going to throw slurs at other people’s level of education.
Errors are easy to make while typing but equally easy to check for.
Most personal attacks are started by republican trolls. Some of the liberals on here reply in a similar manner. You threw in a bunch of personal attacks in your posting while complaining about personal attacks.
Z.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:01 pmLyle,
We are talking about bush lying to the american people..scroll to the top…not the justification for war!
December 1st, 2005 at 1:01 pmThese desperate troll pets of ours are just laughable. I can’t even reply to their posts. They are somewhere between sinister and ignorant. They live in a different world and choose to see things as they wish. They only listen to what they want to hear.
Republicans are on the way down the path they have created for themselves. Do unto others, live by the sword, etc. Karma wins every single time and they are getting back just what they give. It’s a nice balance we have going here and I’m kind of (in a really ugly way which I acknowlege is wrong) enjoying their posts. The more they post, the stronger the stench on their party.
Comment by progressive and proud
I could have said it better of course but just change the subject to the Democratic Party and the Filthy Left that have stolen it and I’d say that’s spot on.
Your problem PP is going to come up in 06 and 08 when all this talk of the downfall of Republicanism is going to be hard to reconcile with the loss of additional Democratic seats in congress.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:02 pmThey live in a different world and choose to see things as they wish. They only listen to what they want to hear.
- Comment by progressive and proud
Anyone with a modicum of honesty would admit that this phenomenon occurs on both sides of the political aisle.
Republicans are on the way down the path they have created for themselves.
- Comment by progressive and proud
Do you not find it interesting that Hillary Clinton is still making quite hawkish statements … why do you suppose that is? Her handlers are smart, that’s why. The US is a fickle bunch of voters. They may not be happy with Bush right now, but, in most cases, that has not translated to increased traction for the democratic party. Hillary is staying in the CENTER or else she’ll never win in 3 years. Don’t confuse a lack of confidence in one party with a transfer of that confidence to the other …
December 1st, 2005 at 1:04 pmDon’t look now Ryan, a comic book reference to insult you. I see where the trolls get all of their logic and intelligence gathering.
And trolls, you look like the idiot at the party having had too much to drink and now has a lampshade on your head. You are merely marginal to us so you can keep wasting your time, but remember, that is all you are doing. Too bad you choose to spend time arguing instead of trying to help the troops you claim to admire.
We just had a veteran’s stand down for homeless vets here. I think you should spend some time doing that. I’m sure there are some meaningful things just like that in your neck of the woods. Arguing with us is futile and rather mean. It seems counterproductive.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:06 pmPolitics is courtship behavior; people choose their strategy at the time when mating urges are most urgent. So what can we conclude about these Bush deadenders? (1) beta males who need an ass to kiss. inclined to court in packs, like frat men. relatively dominant males may value them as the inferior alternative in bars etc., when ‘picking up women by contrast’ (2) comfortable with failure and fantasy compensation. e.g. tobacco-induced primary impotence (which really doesn’t matter because sex is not available), coupled with ‘good-provider’ posturing in social settings. This is not politics, this is evolution. Maladaptive patterns are being outcompeted, and here is where they go to die.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:08 pmTrue Blue… It would be nice if one of them would actually stand up for what they say… I’m still waiting for IRI to try and prove that he is older, wiser and more intelligent than me. As he claimed…
I’m willing to accept his challenge, but he now refuses like the yellow-bellied coward that he is.
Z.
Comment by Zwack
If we could find an unbiased arbiter you would have the answer to your question from a third party. But as it is you’re just going to have to take my word for it. You are a dumbass.
I have no idea if you’re older than me or not I just assume the kind of nonsense you spout is that of a game-boy playing teenager and not the kind of kid I was allowed to associate with.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:08 pm[…] Watch more Stories […]
December 1st, 2005 at 1:10 pm#87 This will not be the first time I have made the statement I am about to make. But in case you have not heard me say it I will say it again and briefly as possible.
I believe that after 9/11 there was a fear that we would get hit again. That it might even be more severe. The US had limited options to prevent such an act. We could increase protection at home and try to improve intelligence abroad or we could go after those responsible. Everyone wants to jump on the Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. I believe the US government believed this was much more than any one country. That these extremists were well organized and well financed. I think that the US government came to this administration and put forth the strategy that would require US forces in the region. The problem was where do you put them and who will they fight. We simply could not just pick a country and call the enemy out. We needed an excuse to put them there in order to begin the war against this enemy that had no nation. So Saddam and his non compliance of UN sanctions offered that oppurtunity. That is why there was no reasonable continuance of inspections. The US government thought that the best strategy was war versus a strategy that would allow the extremists to grow and become a larger danger later.
So I am contending that the US government lied to the world about its intentions in order make possible a startegy that they felt was the best choice for national security for the future. That this was the best way to reduce the threat of a much more significant act of terror on US soil. The US will never nor could ever acknowledge this. It simply would not be acceptable. At the same time the US knew that it could not depend on the rest of world to take on terrorism. This holds true today. If we begin to succeed and other nations see this they may be more confident that terrorism can be fought with some effectiveness.
Many on here contend that the terrorists have grown but there are no facts to support that contention. The increase in the acts of violence are not an indicator of growth in terrorists. They may be an indication of their fight for survival though.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:10 pm*calling*
Ben….oh Ben. Yoohoo!. Over Here! Are you refusing to respond to my question Ben? In case you missed it the other 2 times that I poted it, here goes. How many more times must this administration get caught lying before they lose credibility with you? I’m still awaiting a response.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:11 pm“A couple of Green Berets assissting the Iraqis doesn’t constitute the Iraqis not “leadingâ€.”
-Lyle
Lyle also thinks Custer “assisted” the cavalry at Little Big Horn.
Don’t march in lockstep, Lyle. Bush said the Iraqis “primarily led” and its just not true. Why did he do this? To generate more support for the war. And when you have to resort to these tactics to mitigate your approval ratings in your handling of the war… well, that just really sucks.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:11 pmWe impeached a president for lying about sex , can’t we impeach this president for liying about war . We are talking about american lives , tax payers money , 6 billons us dollars a month going down the drain . Why oh why do we want to meddle in other peoples affairs , why oh why “Bring it on ” . Why not center on our problems here , at home , and protect ourselves , here at home . Let us look at ralities in the face and not succumbs to false promises :
December 1st, 2005 at 1:13 pmvictories , heros , patrotism , medals .
Real patriotism is to care about ourselves , here at home .
#138 sounds like classic projection. Ryan’s mental disorders apparently run deep.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:13 pmTheir illusion of public support that has been propagated through the MSM is over now. The next few months of them trying to deny public opinion and international demands, along with the MSM attempting to prop them up, should be interesting.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:14 pm#115 — Giacomo, bingo. You nailed it. The reason Ryan and some others lash out is because their arguments don’t hold up. The closer you get to revealing that, the more emotional they get. Kind of like a young child. That said there are enough here who will have a rational discussion with you (Spudge, Witch)
December 1st, 2005 at 1:14 pmClinton was impeached for lying in the context of a sexual harassment lawsuit. hardass obviously hates women.
President Bush did not lie about the war to liberate Iraq.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:14 pmYeah Ryan,
The incompetence rap is pretty hard for
December 1st, 2005 at 1:17 pmthe Neos to shake at this point.
Amazing that adults would go to war without
an aftermath plan.
I know they were in a big hurry to start the
war before everyone found out there were
no WMDs, but still, they had no plan at all.
I think kids in a snowball fight show
more follow-up strategy than these guys.
Maybe that’s because they refused to listen to
the military who actually have experience and
training coupled with the fact that all these
guys “had better things to do” than serve themselves?
who needs diplomacy when you can just blow $hit up
Setting: mess hall on a nuclear sub, somewhere off the coast of Springfield, USA
Submarine Admiral: Homer, how do you get peace?
Homer Simpson (reaching across the table to a bowl of peas with a butter knife): Peas? With a knife.
Admiral: Right, not with the pen, but the sword!
December 1st, 2005 at 1:18 pm#144
The war to liberate Iraq? Wait I just got out of my coma that I went into in March of 2003. Didn’t we invade Iraq as a preemptive action because they posed an imminent threat? Confused.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:18 pmWe will know real progress is being made when Bush, or Condi, or Rumsfeld announce weeks ahead of time that they will be touring Iraq to talk to the Iraqi people face to face in all areas of Iraq. Let me know when that happens please.
The only thing this Shiite only Iraqi army is doing is training to kill Sunnis the day after we leave. Do you really believe they will let by gones be by gones? Where are the Kurds in this? They still have their own militia that we asked to be disarmed. Now we no longer mention it. The moment we leave, the Iraqi government divides up the oil between the Kurds and Shiites and the Sunni get told to stick it. You really think the Kurds care about Iraq? The Kurdish Republic is what you will see and the Shiite Theocracy and the Sunni wasteland. Remember Yugoslavia once Tito died? Let by gones, be bygones? Yea, right. Dream on neocons.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:18 pmI have no problem with anger management, after all, I’m not so fearful of disent that I need to go to republican blogs to attack and/or vent. It takes a real hateful angry bag of crap to do that - oh wait, that’s what YOU’RE doing…
- Comment by Ryan Neat
The Ryan Neat lexicon of arguments.
1) State something about the person with whom you disagree (this does not necessarily need to be true, just state it convincingly, no one will notice).
2) Attack the aforementioned attribute with reckless abandon … by no means must you ever respond fairly to what the other person has stated (this would only encourage them to continue the dialogue … remember, the goal is to insult and blame)
3) Include several attacks ad hominem (use words like fool or retard … Nazi is also effective). If you can’t think of a word that you haven’t used recently, make up a new word that sounds bad (like balless)
4) With each new post, change the argument so that the other person must constantly rebut a wider array of statements … by no means should you ever stick to the main topic. This could result in you making a concession of some type.
5) Close your statement with air of superiority. Ignore that you’ve actually said nothing of note (the point is to trash, not answer). Insulting the other person’s intelligence is often effective at this point as well.
Lastly, every six or seven posts, find a substantial quote from another site that supports your argument (just pick one of the 40 that you’ve leveled) … this way, you can continue to smugly claim that the “facts” are one your side.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:20 pm“If we could find an unbiased arbiter you would have the answer to your question from a third party. But as it is you’re just going to have to take my word for it. You are a dumbass.” - IRI
Well, if you were serious about it you wouldn’t resort to ad-hominem attacks but would instead have found a way. I can think of several ways of doing this in a fair manner, but it’s not my challenge so you would undoubtedly use that as an excuse for claiming it is unfair.
“I have no idea if you’re older than me or not I just assume the kind of nonsense you spout is that of a game-boy playing teenager and not the kind of kid I was allowed to associate with. ”
You are the one who explicitly stated that you were older than I. Now you are backing off of that claim. As for the game-boy playing teenager part… I am not a game-boy playing anything. I have played with a game-boy in the past, but I have never owned a game-boy nor played one for any length of time. I don’t remember my parents ever deciding who I could and couldn’t associate with. They allowed me to make my own mind up about that sort of thing, but they also gave me a strong ethical and moral upbringing.
So, if I can think of fair ways of doing part of this challenge, and you can’t then doesn’t that say something about our relative intelligence?
Z.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:21 pmMaybe Bush should give a speech in front of a regular crowd instead of military crowds.
Hmmm, I wonder why he doesn’t do that? I’m sure he’d be open to other points of view that may arise at such a speech, right.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:21 pm#135:
Sorry to steal the word “outlandish” from the White House, but what you just described is not only psychotic, but absolutely qualified as a war crime. You mean to tell us that we intentionally used a sovereign nation as a battleground to attract terrorists from all around?
Wow. If that is an excuse for the Bush Crime Syndicate, than you have indicted them even further. So I suppose if Congress was actually told that this was the real plan, they would have voted for it? I think not. If what you say is true, then the White House is responsible for all the blood spilled (if they aren’t already) for a twisted policy, while lying to Congress.
And you know the penalty for lying to Congress is, right?
December 1st, 2005 at 1:22 pmDodgeball,
Yes we did support Saddam Hussein in the past. That is not a reason to go after him now. Why? Because you doing is complaining about us befriending decades ago. In fact it is because we helped him then, that we needed to overthrow him now. Because we transgressed against the Iraqi people in supporting him and not overthrowing him in ‘91. That means that because we worked with him the past, we needed to stop him today.
We also don’t overthrow all other despots because we don’t have relations with those countries like we have with Iraq. We don’t have a conncetion to Mugabe so we aren’t obligated to Zimbaweans to do anything about him. We didn’t have serious relations with Rwanda, like say Belgium does, to do anything about genocide there. We’ve never supporte North Korea so we don’t necessarily have to take Kim Jung Il out. We didn’t put the Mullahs of Iran in charge so we don’t owe the Iranians. We haven’t spoken to Castro in half-century and don’t owe Cuba anything.
Iraq however got screwed by us in the 80’s and in ‘91. We gave Saddam support against Iran and then we didn’t help the Kurds and Shiities liberate themselves in ‘91. That made it our responsibilit to do something about IRaq. And unlike every other despot we weren’t holding for over their skies in a no fly zone.
That’s why it is okay to invade Iraq and not say North Korea.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:23 pmYou are drawing inferences from my post, although I am not surprised by this. You have concluded that I was implying one thing by saying another. This is not the case and is quite telling of your method of interpretation with respect to the way we converse here. I really don’t think you are able to understand us and is probably a reason that you seem to get so irate.
Bush has a low IQ and one could never conclude that he would ever be anything other than a low IQ president. US voters are not as fickle as they are negligent. Their negligence in not doing due diligence on their choices for those that are put in charge of our lives. It is to their peril to shop at Wal-Mart and rent videos when they should be watching the BBC and trying to find out what their vote really means.
Oy Vey!
December 1st, 2005 at 1:26 pm“Don’t ever accuse me again of not thinking Bush is incapable of wrongs or faults or mistakes. Got it?
Understand what people are saying or keep your mouth shut.”
Comment by Lyle — December 1, 2005 @ 12:59 pm
That’s some pretty weak crap Lyle. I don’t see you SPECIFICALLY taking Bush to task for anything. “He’s made mistakes” - name them, and tell us why you think they were mistakes.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:26 pm“Di