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But did they love Big Brother first? We all know that’s key.
December 2nd, 2005 at 10:56 amHow many murders have there been since 1977?
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:00 amHow many people have starved to death?
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:03 am#3 – what the hell does that have to do with anything?
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:04 amYep, we’re that country that believes in the sanctity of life…right up till the moment you’re born. After that, all bets are off.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:11 amThou shalt not kill, except if they really, really deserve it and they can’t afford a good lawyer.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:17 am#5 – all bets are off when you viciously murder two people, nim rod. God, liberals couldn’t make it easier for the right-wing. You people are so tone deaf when comes to dealing with crime.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:17 amThe death penalty has to go. Even one mistaken executiion is too many. It puts the victim’s family through years of torture while the appeals process goes on. (Not that they wouldn’t be tortured by the death of their loved one.) It’s also bankrupting small counties. In my county there’s a guy who’s been on death row for 25 years for murder by torture of a 3 year old child. The family has disintegrated. Just lock them up and forget them — no parole, limited appeal. The victim is just as dead either way, but the family doesn’t have to stay on edge for decades waiting for the end. Just my opinion.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:18 amI’m always amused about all the “Base 10″ milestones (10,50,100,1000, etc) we mark. It we had six fingers on each hand we wouldn’t care about 1000 in a Base 12 world.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:20 am#8 – no. As long we have abortion on demand, I see no reason to sympathize with vicious murderers. Liberals DO NOT value life unless that person commits a terrible crime against humanity.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:20 aman unborn fetus has more rights than a full-grown adult.
15,000 murders per year in the US on the average.
We’ll have to add the people murdered in Iraq in 2003. That makes a total of some 45 thousand plus murders in the US and Iraq during that year. call it death inflation.
Lizzy Borden took an axe…
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:21 amdanny k has a stench quite familiar to NeD. Anyway, they all sound the same – kill adults, save embroyos.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:22 am#12 – so, if someone kills two, three, …. people you don’t think they should die for that crime? That’s insane. Do you think Sharon Tate’s murderer who stabbed her 52 times deserves to live?
AND don’t play that abortion shit with me – I support abortion. Liberals should not reproduce and I am all the more happier if they have abortions. But, I also support killing vicious murderers who pose a threat to society.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:26 am#12 – I support funding abortion too.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:26 amHey, it was 1976 when the death penalty was legalized, but executions started in 1977.
It was legalized in Gregg v. Georgia, Jurek v. Texas, and Proffitt v. Florida, all in 1976.
Gary Gilmore was the first person executed under the newly legal death penalty, in 1977.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:28 am#15 – it was not “legalized” in 1976. The Supreme Court put a moratorium on the death penalty in in 1972. The Manson family thanks them. There was a huge backlash against it and they reinstated it in 1976. The death penalty has always been legal and states have always had the choice to use it or not.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:30 am#10 – Abortion and the death penalty are not the same thing. Though I’m not sure you would understand.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:34 amNo, killing because of killing is stupid and it does deter criminals at all. If they, like Charles Manson, never get out, they will pose no threat and can be studied to see how to prevent such crimes or, better yet, teach our children before these things happen. When we learn about what made people this way, we can learn to prevent it.
You can’t be half pro-life. Your stance is actually anti-choice. You merely oppose women being able to “kill” as you see it. I’m guessing you were against women in combat.
If one innocent (and I know you love to throw around the innocent life theory) person dies, than all was for nothing. Of those 1000, don’t you think that at least one was innocent? That makes the system flawed and shouldn’t we “err on the side of life?” HYPOCRITE
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:34 amDeath is too good for some people. I advocate repeated and endless forced listeng to G.W. Bush speeches and 24/7 blasting of right wing radio into the condemned’s cells. A fate far worse than death.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:34 amdannyk if you are pro-choice than good for you. But as far as labeling liberals, you are wrong on your assumptions. And as far as posting here, why do you?
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:37 am#18 – Charlie Manson is up for parole every four years so your theory doesn’t hold. Liberals need to get off their soap box on the death penalty – murderers deserve death. Plain and simple. AND 70% of the country agrees with that.
As for abortion – I support it. But, I am not HYPOCRITE. You either value life or you don’t. Liberals only seem to value life for vicious murderers.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:38 amWoohooh another milestone to celebrate: let me hear you chant in unison: ‘U-S-A!, U-S-A! – We’re #1!’
Sorry, actually you are #5, http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0405-07.htm
Look at the company you keep: China, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Kuwait – leading democracies and human rights paragons all…
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:38 am#19 – You are right. There are worse things than death. Like being an unwanted child, neglected, starved and beaten. Like sitting in prison the rest of your days with no hope, only leaving feet first.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:38 am#20 – I enjoy arguing with liberals. AND to be honest, I actually like ThinkProgress. It is my favorite left-wing propoganda site.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:39 amSince the USA is essentially the occupying power in Iraq, should the beatings to death and the summary executions carried out the current Iraqi puppet regime be counted for the US total? Might get you that #2 spot back from Iran.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:40 am#25 – that’s a terrible thing to say about your country.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:43 am#21 – Manson is up for parole every four years because of the rules in place at the time of his crimes. We can make new rules. This is not a black or white issue, danny k. That’s why people like you don’t understand liberals or progressives.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:43 amHey Danny, your pants are on fire…
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/poll010504_deathpenalty.html
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:45 am#26, not my country sonny – its yours…
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:46 am#27 – I think we are better off if vicious killers are put to death. However, I would think being against the death penalty was a noble cause in the name of human rights except that those opposing the death penalty usually support abortion. You can’t have it both ways. I support both.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:47 amPeople who support freedom of choice don’t often refer to abortion as,”abortion on demand”,DiK. You are just too transparent.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:54 am#28 – A. that poll is nearly five years old and B. it presents the death penalty against life without parole.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:56 am#31 – oh, I am sorry. Since I said abortion and not “choice”, I have to be a wing-nut. You, my friend, are transparent.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:57 am#30 – Actually, I can have it both ways. I don’t know why any of us bothers arguing. We will not be able to change your belief system, any more than you can change ours. See ya.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:06 pm“If they, like Charles Manson, never get out, they will pose no threat…”
So once they’re locked up – with no hope of ever getting out – they immediately renounce their former ways and foreswear violence forever? They NEVER EVER murder anyone in prison? They’re never a threat to guards, or fellow inmates?
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:07 pmRight….
Danny K, at least you support both the death penalty and abortion.
Since those who support the death penalty are considered “right-wing wackos”, and those who support abortion are considered “left-wing wackos”, then I guess that means you’re just an “all-wing wacko”. ;-)
I think your mindless attacks against liberals are just as bad as mindless attacks against conservatives.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:14 pmI have heard it costs more to put someone to death than to keep them locked up forever, due to all the appeals. This is language the Right can relate to.
When my dark side comes out, when I am angry or fearful, I find myself thinking like a conservative.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:20 pmZookeeper – you can’t have it both ways. That type of thinking might explain why the Democrats haven’t a single power base in DC.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:25 pmdannyk you or I aren’t the ones to make that decision and no neither are 12 average Americans. You are arrogant to think that only the guilty are murdered by the state and mean to think that a few innocent prisoners are worth it.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:28 pmFor Truth, you are correct. The government pays for appeals – all 11 of them.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:29 pmThe State has a right to your life. If you don’t think so, think of all of the soldiers serving extended enlistments who are serving their country in Iraq. The State owns them.
If you murder someone, you become a slave. Read the thirteenthteenth amendment.
Amendment XIII – Slavery Abolished. Ratified 12/6/1865. History
1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
I used to be against the death penalty until a burglar turned murderer, also a drug informant working for the US government, emptied his gun on one of my relatives. He stood over him to see if he was still breathing. Had my relative not played dead, the drug informant turned criminal would have killed him. He is now serving life in prison, which is too good for him. He should be put to death. He killed another person at the crime scene. The bullets used from his gun were police issue ammunition. A real nice guy.
A sorry lost soul who doesn’t deserve to breathe is what he is.
have a nice day
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:30 pmtomaig – No threat to the general population and that was the argument. You should read rather than scan which is why you ended up voting for a moron.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:31 pmState sanctioned murder is what the death penalty is.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:39 pmThink about it; we are right there with China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia and numerous other nefarious countries in our treatment of humans and human rights and yet we still have the audacity to question how they treat their citizens.
And if anyone actually believes that Charles Manson will get paroled you see the earth as flat. Simply put, he is in forever. Don’t be naive and give me weak arguments.
And when you post things like “So once they’re locked up – with no hope of ever getting out – they immediately renounce their former ways and foreswear violence forever?” you just sound ridiculous. We don’t find wasting time clever.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:39 pm#44 – it doesn’t matter. Poor Sharon Tate’s mother and sister both died because they had to go to hearing after hearing to make sure those scum bags stayed in prison.
The difference is clear – I am inclined to sympathize with victims while you sympathize with murderers. If someone was innocent and they were put to death, that is sad. But, the man put to death today was NOT innocent. Karla Faye Tucker was NOT innocent.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:42 pmI agree Truth…
Look, if someone does something “horrific” like child molestation, murder, etc. I (personally) think they deserve the dealth penalty, without all of the appeals…
But it’s a flawwed system, and without DNA in the 60s, 70s, and part of the 80s, how can we say that they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? However, if they get caught in the act, then “fry ‘em”! I hate to sound like a conservative, but it’s a stance I believe in.
But, in reference to abortion (which is almost always tied to the death penalty debate) I support choice for a woman. And those religious nuts who blow up a clinic and kill a doctor to prove a point should have their lives taken and their church or organization burned down!!! A woman will live with her shame, guilt, and remorse if she chooses abortion! Even though it (abortion) goes against MY personal belief, if these “so called” preachers and evangelists would concentrate more on their members, rather than government, then this debate might not be as contested as it is.
MANY European countries have lower birth rates than the U.S. because they educate their kids about sex and its dangers. They realize that kids will experiment and only through teaching will it not be as alluring or enticing. However, the government forces them to learn state mandated tests and wonder why we are almost last in education throughout the world…
No Child Left Behind = No Child Gets Ahead
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:42 pmI do not support the death penalty because:
1. It is not a deterant for anyone planning to commit a murder(s).
2. It costs more to execute the murderer given the number of appeals set forth by the court system.
However, I do not support abortion either because that is ending a human life as well. Say what you want about abortion to ease your conscience, but at the end of the day, the fetus or the growing baby is still dead. If we ended the death penalty in this country, could we also take a step in the right direction for human rights by ending abortion as well?
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:43 pmChalk up another casualty of the Vietnam war. Add Kenneth Lee Boyd’s name to the black wall, along with his two victims. Boyd was a bulldozer operator in ‘Nam, subject to daily sniper fire. He became an alcoholic, from which he never recovered. There are tens of thousands of other potential Ken Boyds now coming from the Iraqi killing fields with PTSD, with uncurable nightmares and unconscious urges.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:43 pmIn his final words, Boyd said: “God bless everybody in here.”
Here here, Jeff. Studying these people and trying to find out “what makes them tick” will productive for us all. It seems quite intelligent to use all avenues to nip this behavior in the bud. I am no fan of cliches but neocons usually respond well to them.
Jeff Dahmer did not want to murder but felt he had to. He was also very willing to talk about his crimes to behavioralists in an effort to do just what I said before. We can assist criminalists in their expedited capture.
Why do some people just love to throw things away? Wasteful in so many ways.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:45 pmDanny K – do you really believe that Liberals only value the lives of murderers, and no one else? Do you realize how insane that sounds?
Liberals know – not believe, but know – that wealthier, more powerful, better educated, and WHITER people get sent to death row far far less often than their poor, uneducated, and minority counterparts do when found guilty of exactly the same crimes.
IN fact, studies have proven that the death penalty is sought disproportionately in cases where the crime is committed by a minority.
And we all know that F. Lee Bailey has a far greater likelihood of getting you off scott free than Joe Schmo, Class of 2005 from the public defender’s office, buried under fifty cases, will often – not. This is justice?
With all these inequities in undeniable existence, you still feel certain enough to use the power of the state to kill? Not me, pal, and remember – I don’t shy away from violence, I’m the Gun Toting Liberal.
Danny, I will be WITH YOU 100 % in calling for the extermination of violent criminals in America – once basic fairness and equal access to legal services is achieved. In fact, when the corruption of access to basic human services and justice by the wealthy and powerful is eliminated, I may just become a Republican, because then there would be no need to protect the weak from the strong any further, which is what a Liberal believes should be one function of government.
The weak, the poor, the people without friends in high places, must be protected from those who have all these advantages. History shows that the strong exploit the weak. In what organism, family, community is this the other way around?
Republicans deny the basic laws of nature, or worse, throw up their hands and say to hell with it, I might as well get mine.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:45 pmDied because they had to go to hearings? Is that on the autopsy? That is an extremely weak argument and nonsensical. He ain’t getting out if no one came and you know it.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:46 pmAlso this isn’t about sympathy. You are just throwing out slogans. You aren’t making an argument. Please don’t insult us here.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:47 pmRandy, no.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:49 pm#50 you’re using facts again, that doesn’t compute for reich-wingers.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:51 pmPatty Tate died of breast cancer, but she had to go to every hearing for everyone of those murderers you sympathize with #52. I am not insulting you, I am telling you like it is. Liberals have a sudden shock of morality when it comes to vicious murderers and the death penalty. It’s shameful.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:51 pmdanny k, you miss the point in saying that the death penalty wasn’t “legalized” in 1976. While the Supreme Court didn’t disallow the death penalty per se in the Furman case in 1972, they made 40 states’ statutes under which it was people were sentenced to death unconstitutional.
States had to pass new death penalty statutes in order to execute criminals, and they were not allowed to execute criminals under some inherent authority found outside of statute. The criminals convicted under these statutes could not be executed until the criminals exhausted all their appeals.
This effectively meant that no one was executed until the Supreme Court ruled on the validity of death penalty statutes used by Georgia, Texas and Florida in 1976.
A reasonably accurate shorthand for this entire process, and the one that Think Progress used, is that the Supreme Court “legalized” the death penalty, though they got the date wrong.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:53 pm#50 – the death penalty is not about race – it’s about crime. I understand your concerns though – I think all vicious murderers should be put to death regardless of race. The left injects race into the debate to take away from the issue. Shows the power of the argument.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:53 pmWe need a preview option.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:54 pm#57 Race is brought into the argument because the numbers show that economic standing and race are key components in who gets sentenced. Look it up.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:01 pmDanny…YOU’RE an IDIOT!!!
Death is nor a race, political affiliation, or gender thing…It’s about one’s view on life!
Some conservatives (I know) are against the death penalty, and some are for it! I just happen to believe that if you take a life (and it HAS to be proven), then you should have your life taken…I believe that child abuse and molestation should be a punishable offense by death! But, it is odd that many conservatives stop short of that when it comes to catholic priests??? Hmmmm…
So to generalize proves just how narrow-minded and bigoted you really are…But then again, YOU follow BUSH…Enough Said!!!
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:02 pmJeff – but, that’s not an argument for or against the death penalty. If applied correctly meaning everyone who kills gets the death penalty, are you for it or against it. Please stop race-baiting. I am so tired of liberals exploiting minorities to achieve their political ends. AND I am so tired of minorities putting up with it.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:06 pmdannyk, you sound like a republican troll saying the exact same thing with the exact same insults, even worded the same as all of you trolls.
You lack originality and THAT is insulting to us here. Don’t you understand that your argument regarding the Tate’s is without merit? They did NOT HAVE to go to keep him in jail.
And if we as progressives are having an attack of morals, wouldn’t that mean that you, as a neocon, do not with respect to this issue?
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:13 pm#61
Yes – I would agree with that – how many years have liberals claimed they are out to help minorities and things just do not improve for them. They can develop social program after program but nothing will make a difference until those minorities decide for themselves that there is so much opportunity in this country and if they just got off their butts and worked for it, they would achieve it.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:13 pmWe need a few more minority candidates like Michael Steele to show them where the democratic party has failed them and will continue to fail them.
And some troll earlier in this thread said that 70% of Americans support the death penalty. What you failed to mention (I’m sure an accident on your part) was that if given the option of life w/o parole, the numbers drop to 40%.
I’m sure you just overlooked that.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:16 pmAnd regarding your post #2 – apparently the death penalty isn’t working, eh?
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:17 pm#62 – you lost me. I might be a troll, but you are moron. Patty Tate DID have to testify at those hearings – look it up. It’s a shame people like you waste your precious time on murderers when there is so little time in the day.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:17 pm#64 – that option is a scenario which doesn’t always exist – A and B, generally speaking Americans favor the death penalty in large numbers.
The death penalty is a phony issue for the left to make them feel better about themselves.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:19 pmDanny,
Little bit bigger picture. The death penalty accidentally has taken on the race component. Minorities are seen put to death more often due to the overall social and economic positions they are placed in by the dominant culture. Their presence on death row is a side effect of the overall effects of racism.
Do I have to site all the examples, OK.
Many Blacks are in poverty and undereducated, which they then turn to crime and resent the dominant culture. They are in poverty due to generations of the welfare culture, which whites invented to “help” them, after enslaving them. Welfare just keeps the poverty going, there are no opportunities created to get off welfare. Education for the impoverished is neglected. Equal opportunity is said to undercut the minority’s motivation to be the best they can be, it creates a free ride, without having to realize thier full potential.
It is a money for Justice system, look at OJ. If you’re poor, forget it. Minorities make up the majority of the poor.
Lets look at Hispanics. Again lack of education, underfunded, on welfare, hired for unskilled labor, not encouraged to get skills, and if they choose to get skills, the skills are mediocre because educational institutions have to pass a certain number through.
Unfortunately my freind Danny, race plays a very large indirect role that you cannot readily see.
With abortion, all the minority’s are having all the kids, and white girls get the abortions, put it together.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:26 pmWasting time on murderers? But that is my job, actually. And you speak of little time in the day and your choice is to argue on websites in which you disagree. I find that a waste. And, no, I am not a moron. But if that is all you got – go for it. I am not bothered.
And, you are not telling me how it is you are telling me how you see it – big difference.
And no, Tate did not have to testify at every parole hearing. And even if she did, which they didn’t, it did not cause breat cancer. Health insurance companies would love to find a way to exclude it from coverage, though, maybe you are onto something.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:28 pm#69 – Tate did testify. Look it up. AND you’re right – I am wasting my time talking to someone so clearly out of the mainstream.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:32 pmdannyk, if you choose to believe that things you don’t understand or refuse to delve into are just phony, than you are doing yourself a disservice. Just writing things off as “crazy left” is just choosing to bury your head in the sand.
To say that the death penalty is not a valid issue is silly. Ignoring things will not make them go away, contrary to what your mother told you.
You never did address the issue of killing an innocent person, wrongfully imprisoned.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:34 pmdannyk, you wish to believe you are in the mainstream because it makes you feel better if you feel that everyone thinks like you. People like you need to feel validated by many. If you were to find a way to bump up your self esteem, you might see that it doesn’t matter what others think.
I personally don’t mind if I am the only one that believes in something because I validate myself through introspection and self evaluation.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:37 pmDanny – for me being opposed to the death penalty isn’t a “feel good” issue; it is about the often harsh realities of the country in which we live and trying to reconcile difficult decisions. Ponder this:
I will believe in the death penalty when you will prove to me the infallibility of human beings –Marquis de Lafayette
Also, to paraphrase, I believe it was T. Jefferson
I would rather see 99 guilty men freed than 1 innocent man put to death.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:38 pmJeff, I would too. That is the way a civilized society works. We are actually still a very young society and still “cutting teeth.”
I know we will rise above having no other option that killing one another.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:40 pm#71 – I can’t take people like you seriously because you only talk about human life when it comes to murderers. I am sure you support abortion. What about that life? I just find this way of thinking hypocritical.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:44 pmAnd when the morning after pill is available and sex education is in public schools, abortion could be quelled to a minimum. We have the power right now to make abortions almost unheardof.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:45 pmDanny,
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:47 pm#68 any comments?
Isn’t it funny to see the same republican/conservative psychotics who support torture, wmds, kidnapping, propaganda and death penalty lecture others on ’suddenly finding morality’? Funny, but that’s the response I always have when they mention abortion…
As a wise man once said, why is it that republican concerns for life and health always seem to stop at the womb?
But the easy answer is this. EVERY republican policy is about fear and control, including abortion. It is NEVER about civil literties or especially morality. They claim to be christians, but ironically ‘jesus’ said that no man had the right to kill another, and he submitted himself to death as an example of how pascifist people SHOULD be. CONservatives always try to CON everyone into believing their moral, yet the contradictions in their positions always PROVES the opposite.
The reason republicans want to kill is because they can, and because they are immoral.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:48 pmAlmost 3 dozen people on death role were PROVEN innocent in recent years. As long as an innocent person can be killed by accident or otherwise, the death penalty is a solution in search of a problem. It’s immoral, and unjustified.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:49 pmDannyK, that’s actually a great question in #75, but unfortunately it only holds water if you forget medicine and science, and the fact that the mother is the best person to make that decision and not you. Whacko men like you who hate women, always seem to have strong opinions about abortion – and yet ironically you do like tom delay and pull the plug on your dad who has MORE of an active brain than the fetus being terminated.
Human Being = Conscious Brain Waves
Everything else is just a series of human cells, not a human being. It was true with Schiavo, it is true with abortion.
Ignorance is bliss, and republicans and conservatives are always blissful as they ignore science, and replace it fairy tale fantasies.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:52 pmAnd Danny K,
If you feel so strongly about lives, then why not regulate the separation of siamese twins? That often comes with the same delimas and same challenges as abortion does (should one be terminated, can both be saved, do we separate and kill both or save both), and yet this seems like something that’s completely ignored by republican whackos like you – how come? Is it ignorance, or that it doesn’t involve your fantasies of oppressing women?
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:54 pmTruth – your points are all well taken. All murderers, regardless of race and economics, should get the death penalty.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:55 pm#80 – and liberals are right there with us. Bobby Kennedy jr’s claim that Bush’s environmental policy caused Katrina flies in the face of your own logic. AND fyi, I support abortion. But, I don’t live in some fanasty land where we don’t execute murderers.
December 2nd, 2005 at 1:58 pmI agree with IraqVet and Gun Toting Liberal. The perpetrator has to be guilty WITHOUT A DOUBT; ie confession (BTK killer, Jeffrey Daumer, etc), or irrefutable evidence (ie DNA). That being the case, no appeals are warranted or granted; their death is ensured.
The only potential change I would make is allowing the perpetrator to make a choice: either he/she can donate their body to science (ie. organ donation, toxicity testing, etc) or they can carry out their own demise (putting the carbon monoxide mask on, pushing the buttons which release the IV potassium, etc). With that said, I understand that would open up a whole new can of ethics worms.
Personal opinion – the death penalty is not used as a tool to inhibit other potential perpetrators from resorting to crime. It is about permanently removing individuals who committed an egregious crime against someone else, and society as a whole. That includes child molesters, since it has been shown that they cannot be ‘rehabilitated’. Any individual whose case is based on circumstantial evidence, or there is even a preponderance of doubt, the death penalty does not apply.
December 2nd, 2005 at 2:13 pmSo murder is just murder? There are no disqualifiers no matter what? Do you speak of adults age 18 and older? How about 17, 16… What about IQ? 100, 90… The world doesn’t work in a two color system. You know this. To brush it off as simply as murder=die is extremely juvenile.
What about innocent prisoners? You say you like to argue – well…
December 2nd, 2005 at 2:15 pmSeems that COMMON SENSE is not a requisite of the Republican Party these days…
Hey…THEY have ANN COULTER and BILL O’REILLY as their front for free speech…
But it is too bad that their free speech is ALWAYS surrounded by Body Guards and Security for their views…
I guess it sells a ticket! It worked for Hitler for a while, and you see where he ended up…
Just food for thought!
December 2nd, 2005 at 2:21 pmFor me, it has to be proven decisively! If it is proven and there is NO question, then there is no doubt that they proceed to the chair or table…
I would feel that way about any person who has a loved one taken away for “NO REASON”…Still, if there are mitigating circumstances, then that would change the outcome…
There may be some that disagree, but if you take a life by a malicious act, then HELL YES they have their life taken. Especially some IDIOT messing with little girls and boys! I’ll personally end their suffering! I would hate for any man to do that to children and say, “I’m Sick”…NO Buddy, you’re DEAD! Criminals like Ted Bundy, Gacy, Dahmer…we KNEW they did it, and death for them is justified in my book!
Your personal situation should not condone murder. If that is the case, then BUSH is guilty of 2000+ murders (regardless of his title) for ordering men and women into a no-win scenario…We vilified Hitler for foolish actions and unjustified murders and praise Bush for killing over 29,000 people in Iraq! To me, neither one is better than the other!
December 2nd, 2005 at 2:30 pm#13
“so, if someone kills two, three, …. people you don’t think they should die for that crime?”
If somebody is responsible for 2,100 American deaths, can they be held accountable.
Charlie Manson never killed anyone himself, but he was responsible for them.
December 2nd, 2005 at 3:07 pm#21
70% of Americans do not support the Death Penalty.
I support the Death Penalty myself, but that is from growing up with a dad who was a Sheriff my whole life and having to deal with the dregs of society.
December 2nd, 2005 at 3:12 pmI just saw that date. Gonna find something newer for ya.
December 2nd, 2005 at 3:13 pmHere you go:
CBS News Poll. April 13-16, 2005. N=1,149 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
“What do you think should be the penalty for persons convicted of murder: the death penalty, life in prison with no chance of parole, or a long prison sentence with a chance of parole?”
4/13-16/05
Death
Penalty
39%
Life in
Prison
39%
Long
Sentence
6%
Depends
(vol.)
13%
Unsure
December 2nd, 2005 at 3:19 pm3%
Danny,
Thanks for the acknowlegement. It is possible to have a discussion without the verbal abuse.
December 2nd, 2005 at 3:22 pmI just can’t find it in myself to ever think that the punishment of death is justified. To give victims “closure” is an unreal concept. We should have to think deep within ourselves and wonder what kind of society we are to believe that the death of anyone will make us feel better.
There are the rare few who can forgive and they seem to be very sound people. They always seem so balanced, calm and deeply secure with themselves. Isn’t that what we are to aspire to be? For all of you who want everyone to know how much they love God and so gleefully and proudly display their WWJD, well, WWJD?
December 2nd, 2005 at 3:26 pmSorry P&P I am not religous. I think we oughta do to the killer what they did to their victims. This is the part where I am not a democrat. I think putting people to sleep with lethal injection is bullshit. If the killer shot his victims, shoot his ass. If the killer stabbed his victims, stab his ass.
That is why I think it is hilarious when the trolls call me a tree hugger. I am anything but.
December 2nd, 2005 at 3:32 pmThe problem with the “without a doubt” theory is the simple fact that someone innocent will die and there is no way to make sure that does not happen. There is just no foolproof system as we are only human.
December 2nd, 2005 at 3:33 pmI do not believe in organized religion at all, although went to church all through my childhood. Actually, that is why I don’t do church, they taught me well what was going on. I found most of the churchgoers hypocrites and bigots. I found myself just brushing off deep issues and discussions about why we are all here to a few soundbytes and, of course, the pat answer of “just have faith.” That didn’t work for me.
December 2nd, 2005 at 3:38 pm“and liberals are right there with us. Bobby Kennedy jr’s claim that Bush’s environmental policy caused Katrina flies in the face of your own logic. AND fyi, I support abortion. But, I don’t live in some fanasty land where we don’t execute murderers.
Comment by danny k”
Bahaha, what a whacko! The water is warmer because of fossil fuels – we know this. The hurricanes are more fierce because of warmer water. And therefore Kennedy is right, science is right, and you’re clearly a fool.
As for the fantasy land nonsense, no, you live in a fantasy land that executes INNOCENT people, so whackos like you can feel safer. You’re a MORON!
December 2nd, 2005 at 3:49 pmThat’s the sticker PandP, which most of draw the line. If it can’t be established beyond that ‘doubt’ (ie. outride, uncoerced confession – BTK killer) or irrefutable evidence, then the death penalty becomes a dangerous and unjustified penalty.
But if that criteria can be met, ie the BTK killer (I’m only using him because he’s the most recent and unmitigatingly disgusting puke), then I don’t feel it unethical to subject him to the death penalty. I don’t fully subscribe to Spudge’s perpective (I agree with lethal injection) but can understand his perspective none the less.
December 2nd, 2005 at 3:50 pmim4mary,
The problem with this approach, is that people who generally deserve the death penalty actually need treatment for mental illness and not a prison. They’re like MizzWrong – clinically insane, and the death penalty treats ‘illness’ as a crime in itself unintentionally. That doesn’t ‘justify’ their crime, or say they should be set free, it only puts a better context on how it should be dealt with in a civil society.
December 2nd, 2005 at 3:57 pmTo want to hurt others just leaves me with an ill feeling. I too, think BTK is worthy of death, but I am uncomfortable paying for it. I would rather study these guys. Just like Dahmer, BTK is talking it up. These men, by nature, want recognition and revel is talking about their crimes. Let’s use that knowledge to better spot children with these tendencies and PREVENT these crimes.
We have a goldmine of information at our feet here. We already know to look very closely at children that hurt animals. There is so much to learn and we should try to find good from evil. That crazy Karma again.
December 2nd, 2005 at 3:59 pmFor Truth,
I disagree with the welfare claims. The number of people in poverty has dropped from 40% to (11% under clinton) since the early 20th century. To say welfare doesn’t work, isn’t accurate.
December 2nd, 2005 at 4:01 pm#96, I do not believe in organized religion at all, although went to church all through my childhood. Actually, that is why I don’t do church, they taught me well what was going on. I found most of the churchgoers hypocrites and bigots. I found myself just brushing off deep issues and discussions about why we are all here to a few soundbytes and, of course, the pat answer of “just have faith.†That didn’t work for me.
December 2nd, 2005 at 4:02 pmI totally concur with you — my childhood was much the same. Now I see religion used as a tool or a weapon against anyone who doesn’t ascribe to their beliefs.
I agree, Ryan, these guys are sick – no doubt about it. We must act civilized and not just say we are. Like mission accomplished, you can say any damn thing you want – don’t make it true.
December 2nd, 2005 at 4:03 pm#103 – I don’t think all murderers should get the death penalty. But, I wouldn’t base that on age, mental health or anything like that. I would base it on what the victim suffered.
December 2nd, 2005 at 4:09 pmI know, Marie. My aunt would drag me to church three times a week and they had nothing to offer me other “just because.” We, as small children, were never given answers just quotations from scripture so scare us or make us cry. They could always drag some quote out to try to shut us up. Then, after reading that dang book, I knew I was in the wrong place.
I think they were glad to see me go. They were uncomfortable with my line of questioning. I suppose some people would rather be told what to think instead of figuring it out for themselves.
December 2nd, 2005 at 4:09 pmRehabilitation in prison is the ideal to be sought. Yet, when an inmate is rehabilitated, they are often executed anyway. So why the facade of “rehabilitation”?
December 2nd, 2005 at 4:11 pmI will never forget how GW mocked Karla Faye Tucker, who had been “born again” in prison, educated, and completely reformed herself — he signed her execution order.
For those particularly heinous criminals who cannot/will not be rehabilitated, I agree with Zookeeper, life in prison, no parole, just a confined existence until they die.
You can’t quantify suffering. That’s absurd. What about innocent people put to death? That is not civilized.
December 2nd, 2005 at 4:16 pmMarie – I will never forget when Karla Faye Tucker killed two innocent people with a pick ax and then testified that she had several orgasms while she was doing it. I will NEVER forget that.
December 2nd, 2005 at 4:35 pmWell, dannyk, that is unhealthy both mentally and physically to think about those things all the time. You should work from a prospective of goodness, maybe.
Your argument basically says that either no one is capable of change or who cares if you change. That is definately not civilized.
December 2nd, 2005 at 4:47 pm“For those particularly heinous criminals who cannot/will not be rehabilitated, I agree with Zookeeper, life in prison, no parole, just a confined existence until they die.”
Or they could end up like Jeffery Dahmer and his cellmate. He was so frickin’ nuts that the general population of a maximum security prison wanted to get rid of him.
He just like the real whackos in this world cannot be rehabilitated. Period. They don’t have a chemical imbalance, they don’t have a mental problem. They are nuts, through and through and should be put out of our misery. (that wasn’t mistyped)
December 2nd, 2005 at 4:49 pm#109 – what is not civilized are the acts that get people on death row in the first place.
December 2nd, 2005 at 4:51 pmSpudge,
Most people who actually do commit those crimes are mentally ill – how do you KNOW they can’t be rehabilitated at some point in the future? Many actually show noticeable brain scan problems, where areas of their brain are either deformed or undeveloped. While I respect you very much, there’s no way you can say or know this to be true. And substituting a ‘military’ solution for a medical problem makes no sense whatsoever.
December 2nd, 2005 at 5:03 pm“I will never forget when Karla Faye Tucker killed two innocent people with a pick ax and then testified that she had several orgasms while she was doing it. I will NEVER forget that.
Comment by danny KKK”
And you can’t see that this is a MENTALLY ILL person, as opposed to a purely criminal one? Wow, you sound just as insane as her, driveling over the thought of ‘killing the murderers’. What’s sad is that you don’t see both the hypocrisy and similarity of your values to hers. That’s the part that the bloodthirsty chickenhawk republicans always seem to miss…
Psychosis thy name is conservatism.
December 2nd, 2005 at 5:05 pmdannyk, they aren’t all guilty.
December 2nd, 2005 at 5:10 pmP&P,
And even if they are, it doesn’t mean that resorting to murder to punish murder is ‘valid’. That’s frankly immoral as a ‘punishment’, and it’s irrational as a civilized response. It’s caveman, and entirely unsuited to a civilized society – which is why it’s either banned or not used in virtually every country but ours, Iran and a few other hateful places with folks who are stupid as dannyk running the show.
December 2nd, 2005 at 5:12 pmRyan, one day medicine will advance. Of course, that can only happen when the pharm. companies care about humans and not profits alone.
And really, it all does sound rather bloodthirsty. Good word, Ryan.
December 2nd, 2005 at 5:17 pm“bloodthirsty”… I think it’s called justice thirsty. Some of us are pro-victim and not pro-vicious murderers.
December 2nd, 2005 at 5:20 pmI just can’t see death as a solution. It does absolutely no good for anyone. Again, we should look deep within and try to find a reason for us “feeling better” because someone was put to death against their will. The families of the prisoners didn’t do anything to deserve losing a family member. Why should they suffer a loss too?
December 2nd, 2005 at 5:21 pmThis is a great quote, and interestingly it is a religious source. I have lots of religious sources, including jewish, christian, buddhist, hindu, etc. that all provide reasoned ‘religious’ arguments against the death penalty. This response however is a very personal one based on experience, something that those who are opposed to the death penalty clearly either don’t have, or don’t have in a broad enough form.
“People ask me, “How is it that you, a Catholic nun, became involved in the death penalty?” The answer is very simple. I say: “Because I got involved in poor people.” The death penalty is a poor person’s issue. Always remember that: after all the rhetoric that goes on in the legislative assemblies, in the end, when the deck is cast out, it is the poor who are selected to die in this country. In the history of the death penalty it has always been that way.”
December 2nd, 2005 at 5:22 pmSr. Helen Prejean, CSJ, chair of the Board of Directors of the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty and author of Dead Man Walking
Singapore is neocons’ ideal society – they love execution! we should send them there: http://blogdebogs.blogspot.com
December 2nd, 2005 at 5:23 pmdannyk, you keep saying pro murderer. You don’t really believe we love murderers. That is not an argument and totally makes you appear foolish and evasive. You aren’t addressing most of the issues, and have resorted to redundancy.
That is, again, insulting to those of us who are trying to have a valid adult discussion.
December 2nd, 2005 at 5:24 pmRyan – EXACTLY. I have two defendants, one white, one black, same crime committed together. White – 45 years, Black – death penalty. I know.
December 2nd, 2005 at 5:25 pmI bid adieu.
December 2nd, 2005 at 5:31 pmAdieu, P&P. I like the things you had to say here. Nicely put.
December 2nd, 2005 at 5:33 pmI don’t live in some fanasty land where we don’t execute murderers.
Comment by danny k
I live in Canada, where no one has been executed for nearly forty years. I guess this must be a Fantasy Land!
Oh, and our murder rate is far less than yours, so the deterrent argument is bogus.
The Death Penalty has no place in a civilized society. It brings the justice system down to the level of the murderers.
Like Senator McCain said in another context, it’s not about who “they” are, it’s about who “we” are.
December 3rd, 2005 at 1:58 pm[...] to the news, 1000 people have been executed in the States since the death penalty was legalized in 1977. So hmm according to some of the right wing in the States, this is a good thing. Criminals should [...]
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