Help Improve ThinkProgress
Help Improve ThinkProgress
Thanks to everyone who takes the time to read ThinkProgress.org. Although it’s been in existence for less than a year, ThinkProgress is currently ranked #17 out of 22.3 million blogs by Technorati.com.
Above all else, ThinkProgress is a research blog. We want to provide you with factual information and analysis you can’t find anywhere else. And we want to get you that information as rapidly as possible. With your help we plan on making the following changes so ThinkProgress can be even better:
1. Make ThinkProgress a tool for collaborative research. We’d like the comments section to become a place where readers expand on the research in the posts. Ideally, the threads will be a place to find more examples, sources and arguments. As you may have noticed, we’ve recently added HTML tools to the comment window. This will allow you to format your comments just like we format the posts – with links, blockquotes, bolding and italics. We’ll promote the best comments as updates to the main post.
2. Improve the quality of the discourse on ThinkProgress. Debate is welcome on this blog. It’s not a place, however, simply to hurl insults at other people. Arguments should be focused on the substance. Commenters who repeatedly use threads to personally attack others will be banned.
If you have any questions or comments about these new policies, feel free to leave them in the comments section or contact us directly at thinkprogress@americanprogressaction.org
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yea, I forget the being civil rule on occasion. I’m not very good at turning the other cheek.
But we do appreciate your trying to guide the blog as you would prefer it to be. Sometimes it just getts to be Blogee’s gone Wild around here.
Congradulations on your achievement. That’s actually very good for a blog.
December 5th, 2005 at 4:50 pmYea! Moderation.
Does that mean at the very minimum the trolls have to stay on topic?
December 5th, 2005 at 4:51 pmCan I still pass out crackers?
December 5th, 2005 at 4:51 pmI agree. To make this site LOOK and FEEL more professional, the posters here need to ACT and BEHAVE professionally (read: not like children).
It can happen. Everybody pitch in!
December 5th, 2005 at 4:59 pmSweet! More debate, less name-calling. Awesome.
December 5th, 2005 at 5:01 pmJust as long as I can hurl insults at bush, cheney, delay ,and all the other right wing nut jobs, I’ll be happy…Looks like they’ll be able to chat about money laundering charges at delay’s fundraiser tonight…
December 5th, 2005 at 5:03 pmI have some suggestions off the top of my head, I’m sure I’ll come up with more.
How about pulling together a resource link site for each of the topics where bloggers can submit links to reference materials in one concise location? Bloggers often find reference material that is relevant, but the blogmasters don’t seem to do much with that very useful content.
Then we have the troll problems…
How about marking ‘trolls’ as such with a color coded tagging.
How about listing whether different ‘troll identities’ appear to be coming from the same IP source?
How about actually warning trolls that they are acting in a harrassing or illegal fashion? I’ve seen trolls make death threats, and yet their posts were allowed to remain without acknowledgement from the staff.
How about a ‘mode’ where people who don’t want to see troll postings can click a button, and anyone marked as a troll will ‘disappear’ from the content. They can have their free speech as much as they like, but then people could ‘tune them out’ if they wish.
How about make that the ‘default’ behavior, that would be the best :()
December 5th, 2005 at 5:05 pmala Sponge Bob Square Pants:
HOOO-RAAAAAY
December 5th, 2005 at 5:06 pm(complete with jumping into the air)
Breaking News: Judge dimisses conspiracy, upholds other charges on Delay
December 5th, 2005 at 5:06 pmThanks, we needed that!
TP, congratulations on your ranking! We all know this is the best one — next year, it will be #1.
The addition of HTML tools is very helpful.
December 5th, 2005 at 5:08 pmNote — off topic — Delay’s conspiracy charges were thrown out, but the money laundering charges remain. So he will stand trial, probably in January sometime.
December 5th, 2005 at 5:09 pmAP
December 5, 2005
DeLay’s Money Laundering Charges Upheld
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/12/05/national/w140324S34.DTL
December 5th, 2005 at 5:14 pmI have gone by my own rule when commenting here. No name-calling, very little if any profanity. I find that every string becomes a sewer pretty quickly, with the right wingers calling me names, wishing me dead, etc. Sadly, many liberals do the same in the other direction to the right wing commenters. Check some of my comments, as there are several each work day (dial-up at home makes it a no-go after work), and you will find a universal call to civility and generosity of spirit in the overarching ideal of zesty and productive discourse.
Great website, by the way, one of my absolute favorites and chock full of solid gold info all the time. Keep it up and may the Gods bless you!
December 5th, 2005 at 5:17 pmCongrats TP, you’ve always been #1 with me.
December 5th, 2005 at 5:18 pmJust as the current administration took over the white house in 2000 and continued to hold control over it after the 2004 elections, the trolls here really ruin the threads and dilute the news the poster is trying to share. Like Fox news, we can argue their inaccuracies until we are blue in the face, but, at what point, will we just ignore their ridiculous “arguments” (very, very loosly used) and discuss the issue at hand.
December 5th, 2005 at 5:20 pmI welcome the new changes. Unfortunately for me I won’t be able to do my silly song parodies any more. Too bad because I just finished polishing up a good one on O’Reilly which no one will get to see now. Oh, well. I’ll have to find another way to vent them out of my system.
Could TP provide a place for instructions on using the HTML tools? They are not as self-evident to those of us who are fairly new to blogging. Sometimes I ‘d like to post pictures but I’m not sure how it’s supposed to work.
I recommended this before: A dictionary of political terms (such as different types of governments – fascism, socialism, etc.) so that people don’t throw them around incorrectly. Sometimes the term fits, but I suspect that some terms are often used incorrectly, and it makes it harder to make a point if not everyone understands what the poster means to say (or thinks he/she means to be saying).
Also some definitions of legislative terms might help. How many people really understand what a Chairman’s Markup is? And what exactly does “tabling a motion” mean? I think I know, but I’m not 100% sure. (Nobody has to respond to either of these two terms; they are just examples.)
Is it possible to get a link to current House and Senate Rules so that we can translate the legislative-ese that members of Congress throw out to confuse the public? Sometimes they hide behind the not-so-widely known meanings of the terms they use to confuse the public into thinking actions are/are not being taken. (”Oh, that bill’s in committee right now.” Which one? And is it anything beyond the Steering Committee?)
Can we have a way to quickly access important SCOTUS decisions relevant to a topic? People might be surprised at what has already been ruled constitutional and what hasn’t. Obviously we can’t expect easy access to all decisions; most are rather mundane. But since this site often deals with politics and legislation, it’s good to know where proposed legislation might be heading. And no, you don’t have to train us to be lawyers, just more aware citizens.
And I gladly welcome the end of name-calling. Even though it may have been accurate, it rarely contributed to the debate and advancement of understanding. I do agree with Tony W above: as long as we can still hurl our insults at the people in power. And as long as we can say an “idea” or “statement” is stupid and not the person making it, then I can live with those rules. And I’ll try not to swear anymore. It already got me in trouble once before.
December 5th, 2005 at 5:25 pmDude, I think IRI is gonna have a tough time with this one.
December 5th, 2005 at 5:27 pmI second Ryan Neat’s ideas in #7. Good ones.
December 5th, 2005 at 5:28 pmI don’t think there should be a troll labeling policy. A much easier way would be to force people to login, and then have an ignore feature, like many other forums have. That way, individual users can just ignore IRI and the other users who don’t have anything to offer other than vitriol. Also, the real threat of having people banned based on ip and email might lower the temperature level.
December 5th, 2005 at 5:30 pmJust ignore the trolls, they are beaten anyway. It’s time to bury the conservative movement. It’s bloated corpse has been rotting in the sun long enough. It peaked in 1994 and has been going on fumes ever since and those fumes are putrid.
If thy right wing offend thee, chop it off.
December 5th, 2005 at 5:31 pmI agree with the sentiment expressed here. This is a very important site to get the truth out. Therefore, it draws the administration apologists like moths to a light on a summer’s night. I admit to my share of bomb throwing, but it would be better to dispense with all the RNC operatives who want to disrupt TP.
I like Ryan’s idea…one log-in name er IP address. And anyone who wants to cause disruption instead of debating the issues ought to be shown the door.
December 5th, 2005 at 5:31 pmAlso, the real threat of having people banned based on ip and email might lower the temperature level.
Comment by morgan — December 5, 2005 @ 5:30 pm
Agreed.
I look forward to ThinkProgress enforcing their policy.
December 5th, 2005 at 5:32 pmI like the snark, gotta have it, TP.
December 5th, 2005 at 5:34 pmTrolls are ok to a certain extent, because man, they’ve got some f*cked up sh*t going on sometimes and it makes me laugh.
But the personal stuff, name calling and threats are not good.
Just my opinion.
#18
Problem is that most people that are at home have a DYnamic IP Address. I can change mine rather quickly.
I also have the ability to invite myself to GMail 100 times. So, I can be banned up to 100 times before I would have to use my real e-mail address.
The only real way to get rid of these trolls is to have a real live person moderate the threads and delete the garbage. At a bunch of the trolls posts being deleted they will get into shape, because they don’t want to have to type stuff out, just to have it go away.
Moderators please!
December 5th, 2005 at 5:38 pmI like the proposed changes. I was reading through comments this weekend and realized I rarely do more than skim them anymore because of the folks who post every time to insult other participants and just about any Democrat. That will be a welcome change.
December 5th, 2005 at 5:45 pmMake the comments easier to read. It’s a big mess of text at the moment.
December 5th, 2005 at 5:45 pmThe trolls not only bring the level of discusion to that of a middle school playground, they also find any and every excuse to distract from what was posted, just because Bush’s name is mentioned, that doesn’t mean it automatically garners a Clinton comparison (that’s what their bloggs are for!!!)
December 5th, 2005 at 5:46 pmTP has been my favorite site since I discovered it some 6 months ago.
Thanks TP for the efforts to clean up the trolls messes. I usually try to read every post and all the comments but when the trolls keep rapping their nonsense back and forth, well, sometimes I just give up on reading comments.
Thanks again TP for the best site on the internet.
December 5th, 2005 at 5:50 pmGoodbye, Trolls. Thanks TP!
December 5th, 2005 at 5:52 pmThanks everyone for your comments and support. It’s much appreciated.
One note: the problems in the comments section aren’t exclusively because of right-wingers who frequent this site. Too often liberal commenters take the bait and the discussion quickly moves from the substance to ranting.
Of course, this is what some of the right-wingers want — to make the comment section useless. Let’s not give them what they want.
We will explore technical enhancements that could improve the situation. In the meantime, we will manually moderate the site. But moderation won’t do everything. We need a commitment from everyone to focus on the substance.
December 5th, 2005 at 6:00 pm#16
Could TP provide a place for instructions on using the HTML tools? They are not as self-evident to those of us who are fairly new to blogging. Sometimes I ‘d like to post pictures but I’m not sure how it’s supposed to work.
To use the HTML tools just select the text you’d like to format and press the button. The code will be added automatically.
To add an image, click the image button and enter the URL where the image is located. (It has to be someone on the web for you to post it.)
Let me know if you have any other questions. We’ll work on your other suggestions.
December 5th, 2005 at 6:05 pmI dont think that banning all trolls or tuning them out is the answer. We need to welcome discourse and disagreement, plus they’re antics are pretty funny on the whole.
However, there are obviously some troll commenters who come in just to hurl talking points and right-wing rhetoric like so much monkey feces. Here’s the thing, they do it just to rile you up, and they always win.
Why? Because you end up getting so angry when you start bashing them, that you re-inforce all the bad stereotypes about liberals. What’s worse is that you bring yourselves down to a level that I’ve always only associated with conservatives: intolerance, vitriol, lack of understanding for differing opinions, etc.
So, my suggestion is this: you know who the trolls are, so just ignore them. Every once in a while, somobody will have an HONEST disagreement, and it will be worth challenging or disproving, but don’t waste your time trying to prove to I-RIGHT-I for the 50th time that Bush is evil. Here’s a hint: they’re not going to change their mind. EVER.
December 5th, 2005 at 6:07 pmThanks, Judd. And despite was mighy aphrodite posits over at the bush-war-on-christmas thread, I believe that you are all doing a great job. Care to go over there and give an answer? Or would that be exactly what you want to avoid?
Another thought – if you do set up a dictionary/glossary section, how about some reliable, fact-based historical data on religions since many topics involve or are tied into religious history? Just a simple “facts” section, not necessarily “interpretations”. Nothing that is at all disputable. For example, how many people know the differencec between Shia and Sunni Muslims? And why do they violently disagree with each other? Just a thought.
December 5th, 2005 at 6:10 pmYou got it
December 5th, 2005 at 6:10 pmHere’s a hint: they’re not going to change their mind. EVER.
Precisely. Which is why I prefer to insult them and bait them. If I wanted to debate them I would run for office. It’s just not legal to shoot them… yet. Furthermore, you have to consider the possibility that some of them are paid to do this. This is a part time job for some with the money coming from the RNC, (your dollars even) or the Scaife foundation.
December 5th, 2005 at 6:19 pmWhy? Because you end up getting so angry when you start bashing them, that you re-inforce all the bad stereotypes about liberals.
Eisenhower and Goldwater both bashed them and would still be doing it today if they were here as does any sensible conservative American or a Republican deserving of the name. I hate the impostors that have hijacked the GOP and conservatism with a passion and I don’t apologize for it. There is nothing “conservative” about them and any moron can register as a Republican, most morons do. I could have some debates with an Eisenhower or a Goldwater about this or that but I’m not going to negotiate with a “radical fringe” in my midst about anything. If that “stereotypes” me in your eyes, that’s your issue, not mine.
December 5th, 2005 at 6:29 pmone step that would improve this site immediately is banning wwallace who has repeatedly abused those who comment and posted numerous slurs on people’s character and patriotism.
maybe next to the comment boxes there should be a stern face, it’s finger pointing at you, and the caption “are you sure about these words? are they civilized and on topic?” or people could choose their own Image of Calm that would appear, and help bring a little more reason and a little less emotion to the discussions here.
maybe, failing all this, people should be able to Retract their own posts. we all make mistakes or strike the wrong tone occasionally, and that would help stop misunderstandings turning into full-scale fights.
December 5th, 2005 at 6:33 pmSorry thinkprogress, i,m not feeling so free these days.
December 5th, 2005 at 6:33 pmThere are TWO sides to Every Blog. try separating them?
December 5th, 2005 at 6:35 pmJudd,
You guys do a very good job of providing the facts, connecting the dots, pointing out the hypocrisy of the rightwing and its apologists so keep up the good work. It’s no accident that TP is such a draw, the substance is there. The comments section has degenerated though and it got to the point that I didn’t want to waste my time here because it was the same garbage on every thread. I recall when TP first got off the ground that you all wanted it to be an open, inclusive forum that didn’t persecute people for their political views (ahhh….democracy) but along the way the trolls got disruptive and the regular “progressives” played into their slash and burn tactics.
I also recall a a similar commitment a while back to ban anyone that was “posing” as someone else which was a total showstopper in many cases. That was allowed to continue and while it’s got to be nearly impossible to police thousands of comments each day, you guys never seemed to get a handle on it.
I think there should be a zero tolerance policy for the most blatant and disruptive trolls. Weed them out and give the non-troll regulars a chance to be constructive and if they can’t do it, ban them too. Firedoglake came up with “trexing” which was certainly more amusing than a flat out ban. They’d immediately modify a trolls post to make it seem more ridiculous (or rabid) than what had been posted and I’m amazed at how well it worked at keeping them away. FDL has remained nearly troll free and that’s what keeps that site near the top for me. Weeding out the disruptive elements will improve this site for its true purpose of exchanging ideas and sharing information, making us think.
All of us get annoyed from time to time and a good scrappy pissing match probably makes us feel better but it weakens an otherwise excellent grass-roots resource.
Thanks again Judd and all, may the dialogue flourish.
December 5th, 2005 at 6:44 pmSimply eliminate any post that mentions any body part or function between the waist and upper thigh – and that includes a synonym for kitten. Anyone who posts should ask themselves whether they want a daughter, son, grand daughter or grand son to read that post, with your tag on it. Info on the web is starting to extend back into tax records in the 13th century.
December 5th, 2005 at 6:54 pmGreat job, TP, you guys are usually out front, getting quoted repeatedly by dailykos. If there are any awards in this crazy business you should get one, or more. The discussion is lively with plenty of posters. The insults do get a little childish, but, hey, I’ve gotta admit I still smile when I think of being called a ‘witless fool’ by RN.
I do visit dailykos, I suggest others do too once in awhile to see the way they do it, and the level of discussion, adherence to the thread, minimization of vitriol, etc. Kos does a couple of neat things: 1.threads within a thread (responding successively to a post) and 2. The originator of the thread jumps in to ask questions and keep it flowing.
Finally, I don’t mind responding to troglodytes. I don’t assume they’ll never change. I was once young and stupid, too. Now I’m just a witless fool HA HA HA HA.
December 5th, 2005 at 6:57 pmThe beauty, of this medium, is the option available to all posters, is to use good manners. i personally think it is everyone’s duty to provide something exeptional to the discussion other than the typical rant, which certainly could include HUMOR. I always try to leave something tangentially appropriate with my comments that might challenge your readers/posters to learn more and at the same time take advantage of the instant PULSE that this medium so uniquely enjoys. Grenade tossers are the biggest hemroid of this site and we all know who they are so ignoring the bullys or chastising them should be done with language that your preacher, teacher or mother could hear and acurately addressing their own lack of substantial response to the pertanent topic I think works the best, Or if you get really tired of them politely ignore
December 5th, 2005 at 6:57 pmthem.It’s like a cross between driving and being at a political rally. You might have a particular bumper sticker on you car to help with your identity but you still cant crash your car into someone else because they cut you off. Thanks for listening.
I’m mostly a lurker and I’ve noticed that lately there’s been a lot more “bashing” – and it doesn’t solve anything. I find many constructive comments and learn quite a bit, but it does get difficult sorting through the flame-throwing..:)
I welcome any change which will calm things down. I’ve learned one thing from my many years on the ‘net – battling the trolls is almost pointless. While a snippy reply may give some instant gratification, it also lowers one to the troll level.
Finally, I want to thank all the folks at TP for up-to-the-minute posts, and to the many regular contributors who post some really reasoned and passionate discussion! (I won’t name you by name – I wouldn’t want to leave anyone out!) :) I discovered this site by accident some months ago and have been a daily reader since!
December 5th, 2005 at 7:01 pm2. Improve the quality of the discourse on ThinkProgress. Debate is welcome on this blog. It’s not a place, however, simply to hurl insults at other people. Arguments should be focused on the substance. Commenters who repeatedly use threads to personally attack others will be banned.
I never simply hurl insults people. I always have a pithy and topical comment to go along with it. Ryan on the other hand….well, we’ll see if he gets ignored, cautioned or (ha-ha) banned.
I’d like to mention that the idea that someone who has a conservative argument or comment is a troll is in fact something only a troll would say. What possibility of reasonable discussion can one have if that is his world view? None…so the troll-trolls should be banned. Ban them all!
By the way…I take full credit for the popularity of this site. I’ve no doubt most visit to read my pearls of wisdom and scathing verbal assaults on the Filthy Left.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:03 pmLots of good comments in this thread.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:05 pmI look forward to the changes.
Judd,
Here’s your chance to implement the “new rules”….#45, he’s gotta be the first to go.
Please let us know when you do blow someone up though, it’ll be good for morale :)
December 5th, 2005 at 7:07 pmThey’d immediately modify a trolls post to make it seem more ridiculous (or rabid) than what had been posted and I’m amazed at how well it worked at keeping them away. FDL has remained nearly troll free and that’s what keeps that site near the top for me.
Comment by BJay
Yes, we know how much you love to be unopposed and only have people around that agree with everything idiotic thing that comes out of your mouth. I would bet the FDL (never heard of it) site’s numbers have descended into the netherworld of blogs on the trash heap. If you have your way this place will go down the tubes. I mean really, how many DUmmies and MindIdots do you think are out there?
December 5th, 2005 at 7:08 pmJudd,
Here’s your chance to implement the “new rulesâ€â€¦.#45, he’s gotta be the first to go.
Please let us know when you do blow someone up though, it’ll be good for morale :)
Comment by Jay
Don’t be stupid. He’s got dozens of idiots like you and just one of me. It’s a no-brainer. I’m good for business, you’re just another brain dead lemming.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:11 pm“I never simply hurl insults people.”
“scathing verbal assaults on the Filthy Left.”
There is your proof right there. Nothing else needs to be said.
Troll #1
December 5th, 2005 at 7:12 pmMore than 50% of the TP experience is dealing with trolls. I would not come here just to hear Ryan Neat or Spudge only. Trolls are good for TP and other sites. On many levels. Even if it involves “hurling insults”.
If this site censors in the fashion of Redstate or Huffpo I will never come back.
It IS rude to insult Judd or any other writer. They provide , up to this point, a very nice format here with a minimum invasive element by third parties.
Please don’t change the format!
December 5th, 2005 at 7:13 pmTake #45 IRI’s post for example. Grenade thrower or legitmate presentation of thought? Seems a bit oxymoronic to me to start off the post with valid points then shift to mildly hateful bragadocious chest pounding. i like the balance, if this is what the oppostion has to offer, then please feel free to submit more. Lissette Model , photographer/philosopher, once said “there is nothing more mysterious than a fact clearly stated” Please bring all the facts you can to the table. Thanks again for the medium.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:13 pmI-R-I (45) – No, I don’t think that someone who has a conservative idea is automatically a troll. A troll tosses out some “fact” which has been already widely debunked and yet refuses to accept or even consider the debunking source.
But, when you load things with “Filthy Left” or as O’Reilly refers to such websites as this or MMFA as “leftwing smear” sites – clearly that’s trolling. If you have wisdom, present it without the demonizing or name-calling – treat people with respect, and you might get some back. Pretty simple.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:14 pm“Don’t be stupid. He’s got dozens of idiots like you and just one of me.”
Another one.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:15 pmcynicon implant is a conservative with a different point of view, but he doesn’t attack unless attacked.
I-RIGHT-I on the other hand attacks whether somebody attacks him or not.
cynicon implant = not a troll
I-RIGHT-I = troll
December 5th, 2005 at 7:17 pmyes, i am glad I-Right-I has appeared. he is one of the incessant abusers. he seems to think that he is forming a necessary adjunct to the often-times progressive views expressed on TP. in reality, he is just a name-calling loser, whose “debating skills” amount to immediate gainsaying of other commenters, mixed in with slurs on their character, patriotism, IQ, etc. he has to go. not because progressives are Frightened of Debate or Scrutiny, but because he simply does not abide by the TP terms of use, that clearly state…
“• Respect other Bloggers — please do not threaten, insult, abuse, intimidate or harass other Blog users.
• Use the Blog for your personal use only. Posting entries solely to promote your own projects are not allowed.”
i-Right-i has a shambolic record on this site. most of his posts take aim at the commenter, not the comment.
i include the second part because I-Right-I and wwallace are, to my mind, engaged on their own personal project – namely, to mindlessly antagonize people they don’t agree with/hate/despise etc.
they need to be purged. maybe we can’t stop/modify their behavior, but we can at least move them on and make them someone else’s problem.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:18 pmI-RIGHT-I, wwallace and mighty aphrodite all remind me of that Monty Python skit.
“What are you doing here?”
“I came here for an arguement.”
“No you didn’t, you came here for an arguement.”
December 5th, 2005 at 7:20 pmyes, only the Monty Python skit was funny
December 5th, 2005 at 7:20 pmThis is one of the best sites on the web – FDL, DailyKos, AmericaBlog and TP are the ones that I rely on for my daily dose of blogging. The level of discourse of late has made it difficult to read many of the posts. Thanks for trying to get back to the original intent of allowing for intelligent conversation about the current state of politics in this country.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:26 pmThe troll issue is a tough problem.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:27 pmIt may be that the attack on this thread is
meant to trigger a ban so it can be trumpeted
from the right-wing blogs.
It is a delicate balance because once you
ban someone they will scream that “only
conservatives” are banned. The history of
a troll’s abuse will not be known outside.
Maybe a ban can be posted with a series of
comments and warnings that have been issued.
Just a thought.
You can go and find I-RIGHT-I trolling in every other thread on Think Progress right this very minute.
Come on Judd, make an example out of the worse offender TP has.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:28 pmWhen I first found this site a few months ago, I tried hard to be civil and add reasonable reasoned discourse. After a few days, I was snarked pretty heavy. I thought then and there that it wasn’t purported what the name of the website claimed, i.e. thinkprogress.
It is a very interesting place to visit. However, it will nosedive at 500 miles per hour into the ground if the ‘rules’ are enforced.
good luck to ya
December 5th, 2005 at 7:31 pmI include the second part because I-Right-I and wwallace are, to my mind, engaged on their own personal project – namely, to mindlessly antagonize people they don’t agree with/hate/despise etc.
they need to be purged. maybe we can’t stop/modify their behavior, but we can at least move them on and make them someone else’s problem.
Comment by jason kennedy
I don’t know where you’ve been for the past month or so but as a RULE I only give as good or better (usually) than I get. If you’d like to ban the comments of people who hate/despise the opposition I suggest you would have NO ONE TO TALK TO on this site. Then you’d be all alone with your ideals and happy.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:31 pmhere let’s try this approach; I think the biggest mistake the Sedgwick county, Wichita,
December 5th, 2005 at 7:32 pmKansas, prosecutors office made was letting Dennis R. get to recite his confessions with details in court. He had to be getting off by being able to graphically recalling the deails of his henious crimes out loud. So as far as the inept articulators who throw grenades at this blog IGNORE them don’t recognize them or repeat anything they say and you have deflated their boners. Ridicule their genre but just do not acknowledge their inividual presence. this is what fuels their miniscule egos that they so blatently have to overcompensate for by attacking your opinion, whether it’s pedestrain or articulate. They have no capacity to share,they’re just trying to regain some of their own depravity.Who was it you said was a troll?
59: seefleur – I agree, when I stumbled upon the site, I was very impressed and it’s one of my “quick launch” buttons in my browser – among others are AMERICAblog, NewsHounds, MMFA, and Salon.com (yep, I have a paid subscription – Salon is also an awesome site!) I do visit some of the right-wing sites (redstate, etc), they’re nowhere close to this site. And, of course, for some light fun – a visit to wonkette is in order, and then a daily rude slap from the Rude Pundit! :)
December 5th, 2005 at 7:33 pmIt is a very interesting place to visit. However, it will nosedive at 500 miles per hour into the ground if the ‘rules’ are enforced.
good luck to ya
Comment by Ron
I really like this place and you are right. One thing the Filthy Left likes to give a lot of lip service to are rules…as long as they are for someone else. Nosedive is correct.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:34 pmThink Progress,
I appreciate the opportunity you have offered me and the other like minds to express our opinions. I also very much appreciate your decision “to kick it up another notch.” I, even though I was/am one of the offenders, had decided to quit reading the comments and quit posting. I may lessen my posting to a degree because my sarcasm and cynicism may be out of place in your new format but I will certainly continue to read each thread and the comments.
Thanks again,
Clyde
December 5th, 2005 at 7:34 pmI think we should register and have the option to hide comments of certain people. I enjoy debate, but dislike some of the “debaters”.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:36 pmI don’t plan on banning anyone immediately. The terms of use have always been there, but this post really the first time we’ve articulated the rules. Everyone deserves a chance to show good faith. We’ll enforce the rules as we move forward.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:37 pmI still think IRI is a Limbannity parrot 99.9% of the time, but I have to agree with some of what he’s saying on this one. I’m not a big fan of banning people…that would just turn this place into RedState.org or some other winger site. They ban people left and right and it turns into a big echo chamber.
Trolls, by definition, are posting only to get a response. We can figure out what comments have substance and which ones do not. That’s why I serve crackers to the trolls and then ignore ‘em. Gives them something to chew on without using up the comment space. It takes two to tango…I’d rather let them fall off a metaphorical cliff on their own stupidity.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:37 pmHas anyone of the TP contributors been banned from other blogs? What standard/process do they use? I-R-I claims pithy and topical…
“Left wing non religious Jews are the problem. Period. I wonder if the Germans had the same problem with y’all?
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — October 20, 2005 @ 4:04 pm”
“The Left Wing Jew who runs that LA paper should be hung up by his balls if he had any. Ditto the rest of you losers.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — October 19, 2005 @ 3:33 pm
Pithy? Topical? Several other words spring to mind, but I am trying to behave myself.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:38 pmI agrtee Jason. wwallace and I-Right-I need to move on if they can’t stop the instigation of insult slinging.
However, TP stands out from the rest of the blog-o-sphere because it doesn’t sensor its comment section. We want the Right to make their arguements freely. Perhaps use a “warning” system. Three strikes and the blogger is banned for 10 days or something like that, via their IP address.
Above all, keep the chat on-topic and high spirited. There’s no reason for this not to be a positive experience every single day for the Left and Right contributors.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:39 pmClyde:
Rest assured, sarcasm and cynicism will always be welcome here.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:39 pm“I don’t know where you’ve been for the past month or so but as a RULE I only give as good or better (usually) than I get. If you’d like to ban the comments of people who hate/despise the opposition I suggest you would have NO ONE TO TALK TO on this site. Then you’d be all alone with your ideals and happy.”
Wrong, cynicon implant and Giacomo are both conservatives with a different point of view and in my book they are not trolls like you.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:41 pm“I don’t plan on banning anyone immediately. The terms of use have always been there, but this post really the first time we’ve articulated the rules. Everyone deserves a chance to show good faith. We’ll enforce the rules as we move forward.”
Judd,
That is very nice, but I-RIGHT-I is trolling in a thread about not trolling.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:43 pmfly-man: good point. As an example, I-R-I said: “I don’t know where you’ve been for the past month or so but as a RULE I only give as good or better (usually) than I get.” – I don’t see the point of this comment other than a self-absorbed ego-booster – and a rather childish reply with absolutely no content.
Like I said, I do enjoy many of the comments on various issues and I check out links to more information that are posted – and many times I email these links to friends.
I would be really curious what folks like I-R-I or wwallace or others are like in person – too many times a person’s personality behind the screen is very different from the personality in front. I’d like to think I’m the same – sometimes a bit more bold in “print” than in person, but otherwise a very laid back liberal kinda guy.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:43 pm“One thing the Filthy Left likes to give a lot of lip service to are rules…as long as they are for someone else.”
How many second chances are you gonna give people Judd.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:44 pmI dunno Spudge, I think blatant hate speech and death threats are more concerning to me – Filthy Left doesn’t do it for me.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:47 pmcensorship and enforcing Terms of Use are two different things. i don’t mind the ideological content, but I-right-I again and again does nothing but antagonize. he is an infantile aggressor and he is obsessed with securing the Ultimate Victory of Being Sent to Bed by the Authority Figures at TP.
then he can cry into his pillow about how he was right all along – daddy is bad.
but why should we have to live alongside his unfolding psychodrama? just kick him out for endlessly violating the Terms of Use. otherwise, what point is there in Having Terms of Use?
December 5th, 2005 at 7:49 pmTerry,
I don’t really care about names and such. You know the whole sticks and stones thing. I’m just pointing out the facts.
I don’t really care if the trolls call me names, I just wish they would respond to the thread they are in.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:50 pmI really do think someone in this thread
December 5th, 2005 at 7:51 pmis trying to trigger a ban so they can
scream about it.
As I said earlier, it is a tricky
problem.
Again, the attention the grenade throwers get is by seeing someone hurt by their tossing a Malotov. The malotov doesn’t exist in this medium if it is not acknowledged. IGNORE it .The life of these threads is so short anyway without any sort of accreditation or regulation so why just feed their nanometer sized egos? Maybe they’ll come back with some legitmate persuasive arguments that may actually support one of their feelings.
December 5th, 2005 at 7:53 pmfly-man, it’s a lovely thought, but i think you’re dreaming. i-right-i and wwallace are stuck at a point in their emotional development, some way before maturity. liberals/democrats are a focus for their frustrations and anger. if they are older than 25+, i don’t see how they can change without counseling.
go back and look at the volume of postings by wwallace, sometimes he is responsible for more than 50% of all posts on a thread. how CAN you ignore that?
December 5th, 2005 at 7:58 pmMaybe a system of warning and temporary
lockout like:
1) Thread lockout (I don’t know if it can be done)
with posted warning
2) Day lockout with posted warning
3) Week lockout with posted warning
4) Full ban will full documentation?
Sometimes people “cool down” between threads and
can contribute later. Some probably not.
Another thought might be to lockout the
December 5th, 2005 at 7:59 pmthread for everyone once warning has been
issued. This would take away the “only ban
opposing view” talking point, but would
affect everyone. That might be okay since
a thread becomes pretty useless after
it devolves.
Wait, bad idea.
December 5th, 2005 at 8:01 pmThe problem people would just force constant
lockout in the second plan.
Forget that idea. My bad.
Who cares if the banned go off and cry about it?
A warning has been issued that the rules are going to be enforced. So the most obvious culprit hops onto the very thread where the warning is issued and starts injecting his usual inflammatory ignorance. NO WAY I’d allow it, they’re mocking you Judd…please step up and do the right thing.
December 5th, 2005 at 8:05 pmMr. Jason, This is a blog and I always read all the posts with the disclaimer that anything I read is always open to inspection regarding it’s delivery, IE; anonymous authorage, so if there is something I can take with me into the next hought chapter of the ORIGINAL INTENT of the thread I will , everything else is just atmosphere or pollution. We have to deal with all of these aspects of our enviroment everyday and decide what at any given moment is important to us. I appreciate your opinions like all others but when the end of the day is here, JUDD FAIZ, NICO & PAYSON have just thrown us all something to THINK about . That is all there is to it.We all know more about Bill O than we want to but what do we know about me or any other poster other than what they just respond to regarding the threads. Challenge my complacency and I will do the same. Thanks
December 5th, 2005 at 8:09 pmTHE TOP TEN MOST LITERATE CITIES IN U.S.
An ocean of blue, with a few red specks.
Seattle, WA 1
Minneapolis, MN 2
Washington, DC 3
Atlanta, GA 4
San Francisco, CA 5
Denver, CO 6
Boston, MA 7
Pittsburgh, PA 8
Cincinnati, OH 9.5
St. Paul, MN 9.5
Color me not surprised. Also, I bet if you looked at the voting records of the red state cities…..you might find something a little blue about them.
-GSD
December 5th, 2005 at 8:09 pmWell, I think all it would take is to start with is a stern warning from Judd, but Judd is allowing I-RIGHT-I to do it and this isn’t the only thread I-RIGHT-I has trolled in the past 20 minutes.
So, by Judd responding to me saying he isn’t going to ban anybody and that he is going to give everyone a chance is that he is giving I-RIGHT-I a pass and saying it is okay for now.
I am sorry Judd, but to have some stupid ass troll question my service in the US Army makes me a little more than a little hot on the collar. I put my life on the line to protect the freedoms of everyone in this country, including the trolls. But, I didn’t join so these trolls can insult people. If they have a different opinion of a topic, fine, but they attack our person, our families and our honor. If that is the kind of discourse you want on your site, then maybe I need to leave.
December 5th, 2005 at 8:10 pmWell, in the interest of keeping freedom of speech alive and well on the liberal/progressive sites like this, it sounds like people will have to exercise a little maturity and NOT respond to the trolls. I was banned from a red site for correting a statement about the Sunni vs. Shia (no bad language, just a simple correction of FACT). I would hate for any site like this to end up lowering itself to that sort of action. I can just as easily ignore the trolls, rather than change the dynamic of TP and it’s pithy commentary (along with the genuine wit and snarkiness that accompanies so many of the best “regulars”.)
December 5th, 2005 at 8:12 pm78, 80: Spudge, Terry: While “Filthy Left” doesn’t do it for me either – it is a silly phrase – just like O’Reilly’s “smear …” comments, words can still hurt and it’s too easy for some to hide behind a nickname and lob bombs into a discussion. I’m old enough to discount most of them, but it’s sad to see what could be constructive discussion degenerate into name-calling.
I do wonder why some of these folks actually spend time lobbing these bombs – here as well as a number of other sites I read (NewsHounds is another good example). It’s interesting that MMFA’s comments section (currently unavailable after their web redesign) had a few bomb throwers, but for the most part, the discussion was civil.
Anyway, I look forward to better discussions – or a better signal to noise ratio. My advice to those who want to just make noise – go somewhere else – I’m out of popcorn to toss to you.
December 5th, 2005 at 8:14 pmIf behavior that calls for banning does not affect the popularity of the blog-why ban? The very last thing this site needs to be is a propaganda site. Lord knows there are some pretty soft propgressives that could stand for alittle degradation from time to time. I have seen people change on this site. Change for the better. I’ve seen trolls broken and they were unaware of it.
December 5th, 2005 at 8:16 pmPlenty other places I can go for propaganda-
seefleur,
Of course noone should be banned for presenting data or their own point of view but personal attacks are easy to identify and there are blatant offendors, on both sides. In fact, trolls are easy to identify and they shouldn’t be tolerated. You can only be so tolerant, if it starts to hamper the entire r’aison d’etre something has to be done.
December 5th, 2005 at 8:21 pmTerry,
December 5th, 2005 at 8:21 pmHate speech is not the reason this topic became a thread. We’re discussing this because Judd was embarrassed by an earlier thread. The posters didn’t like it and HE made a big deal out of it. Is transparency going to be the first victom here?
victim even!
December 5th, 2005 at 8:23 pmFor example here is an article on OPEC. Enjoy
December 5th, 2005 at 8:28 pmhttp://www.nationalreview.com/comment/learsy200511041337.asp
AtvV,
The popularity of the blog? How about quality rather than quantity?
Why would eliminating destrcutive elements make this site more propagandish (is that even a word?)? I mentioned FDL in an earlier post and how they’ve manged to keep the trolls at bay. The quality of the dialogue there is extremely high, draws a dynamite group of folks….no trolls. It’s like an oasis.
December 5th, 2005 at 8:29 pmThis topic became a thread because a battle that wwallace and I had. But, that is not the first time I have defended my honor against a troll and I am sure it won’t be the last.
“Spudge is a draft dodger like Clinton. Spudge works for the other side.”
wwallace
“Spudge, your failed efforts to serve as a gay Boy Scout leader do not count as “serving in the militaryâ€. ROFL”
wwallace
I guess I am supposed to sit back and ignore comments like these? If I was sitting next to him and he said something like that, I wouldn’t turn the other cheak, I would bust his lip.
December 5th, 2005 at 8:30 pmHey Guys,
I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but I will argue that I have been in there a long time so maybe I can get the job done some other way than just cutting them up. If they are to tough to cut just let them mellow. It doesn’t cost anything, (pride, face, image, machismo, dissing, whatever excuse you may have) to ignore the dissenters. It is the nature of the beast, pun intended, that if they are not noticed they will slink away. Some of us here, myself included at times, intentionally bait the buggers. Than can be fun but it is counterproductive. Let us all just add to our collective knowledge. It will get to the point the trolls will go away or will provide some useful information that we may incorporate as they are bound to incorporate some of our thoughts. There is never any advantage in trying to advance ones case by belittling your opponent. Leave him alone or encourage him to grow with you–you will always be the better person and the winner.
December 5th, 2005 at 8:30 pmClyde tell that to “I let them swiftboat me” Kerry.
December 5th, 2005 at 8:32 pmSpudge,
Kerry didn’t lose because he was “Swiftboated.” Kerry lost because the Republicans were able to count more votes, legal or not, than the Democrats. Kerry lost because he, you, and I, andnd our fellow travelers (let the trolls have a go at that) didn’t want the Presidency as bad as the Repugs. We were negligent, we were complacent, we were naive, we were stupid, we were Swiftboated but that doesn’t change a damn thing in retrospect. The damage has been done, painfully so. We can bleed and complain or we can make sure it doesn’t happen again. I don’t care what anybody calls me, as long as they call me for dinner. When I was young like you I used to say I don’t carry grudges, I just ignore the threats. Then it became I don’t carry grudges, I get even. And now in my advanced age I have learned not to carry grudges but to get ahead before there is any thing to begrudge. Let’s all go get ahead!
December 5th, 2005 at 8:48 pm“We can bleed and complain or we can make sure it doesn’t happen again.”
You are absolutely correct.
I wouldn’t say I am young. I have a 17 year old daughter and I am a Desert Storm vet.
“I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore!”
December 5th, 2005 at 8:52 pmObviously, there are different views about what should happen from here on out. All of your views are being heard. Hopefully, this discussion can make this blog a better place for everyone.
We’ll do our best to make the best decisions we can.
December 5th, 2005 at 8:53 pmIRI sheds crocodile tears at night. It would be a feather in his cap if Thinkprogress would bite the dust. He wants it both ways. He wants to stay to creatively destruct the place. He also screams bloody murder if he can’t.
He starts a drunken brawl and claims victim status. Pointing with pride and viewing with alarm, he scorns, scolds and takes on an air of authority.
It’s kind of a dog and pony show that modern-day, so-called ‘conservatives’ are playing these days. A Karl Rove wannabe. It only plays for so long, and then the cacophony shrills even in deaf ears.
I’ve said my peace about IRI.
December 5th, 2005 at 8:54 pmwwallace’s dialog has greatly deteriorated. I don’t respond to him really. Ryan has done a good job of calling him out. (Ryan also seems to have alot of time). MA throws out unsubsantiated commentary and disappears. Who cares? They’re nice to have around for a multitude of reasons. If I want a civil discussion I’ll talk to my wife. She’ll tell me exactly what I want to hear!
December 5th, 2005 at 8:55 pmHow about Hidden insults? LOL -Aj
Say sumthin like..
Wwallace had his friend Dilbert, in a inferior position, to his superior one, as they wrassled heatedly.
Muuuuhahahahaaaa
December 5th, 2005 at 9:01 pmSpudge,
My oldest Grandson (of 9) is 30 and my oldest Great-Grand Daughter (of 4) is 9. For none of which may I take credit nor must I share blame.
Let’s go get ‘em so you can share the same pleasure. It is all for them anyway!
December 5th, 2005 at 9:10 pmI e-mailed you a few days ago about this issue. Since you have taken this first step, others must have raised it as well. In some respects, flaming is an issue in everyday conversation, after all there isn’t anybody who isn’t an ass some of the time whether at work, play or on-line. Unfortunately, these threads simply have a tendency to go on too long. Most of the topics which generate comment traffic are over relatively quickly. Why not close comments after a reasonable interval, say 3 hours or 6 hours. As someone with adult onset attention deficit disorder, usually caused by the 6th or 7th version of”your momma…no,your momma”, I think you cause save some bandwidth this way.
December 5th, 2005 at 9:14 pmMy own posting privileges on Free Republic were revoked after just 2 posts, so you are pretty far over the line as far as tolerance goes. And my comments were civil,factual and on-topic, the very things they can’t stand.
Thanks for a great site, I enjoy citing it.
If you do decide to post quick links, include a grammar book or at least the section on homphones and homonyms. A fair number of the posters here could use the help.
Hey, guys,
December 5th, 2005 at 9:22 pmJudd can certainly speak for himself, but I betcha he doesn’t mean that we can’t get into heated debates or arguments on a topic with ourselves or a troll. He probably looked at the posts over the weekend and saw that the comments had degenerated to the equivalent of a food fight and THAT is probably where he will draw the line. If we don’t discuss controversy, then there’s no point. At least that’s the way I read it.
I don’t think IRI or MA can post without personal insults, so let’s see what happens in the future.
I prefer the site stay the same as it has been for the several months I’ve been visiting.
Getting people fired up is more productive than you think. Discourse is a very popular way of motivating sales teams.
In this forum nobody is actually being hurt. Typed words have power but if typed words actually hurts somebody then they are in real need of help. We shouldn’t all have to walk on eggshells because a few are overly sensative.
I think the trolls keep us on our feet and prove that we are highly intelligent and informed. They help our cause in my opinion.
Oh well, if it gets boring, I’ll find something else to do.
December 5th, 2005 at 9:23 pmI have an idea.
DailyKos is famous for dealing with trolls by replying to them with a recipe. Chocolate chip cookies, Chicken Noodle Soup…any recipe.
It’s their own unique way of saying “I recognize you are there, but I’m not stupid enough to be troll baited by a unproductive comment, so here’s a recipe for Guacamole.”
Let’s come up with something similar that says “I read your post, it’s rediculous, here’s an equally rediculous response.” which could be used for the worst offenders. People with legitimate issues, different opinions and honest disagreements should be engaged, but real trolls should be dead-ended. Trust me, they’ll go away.
The recipe thing works well with Kos because they have nested threaded comments, while wordpress uses an ordered list. So, if anyone has an idea for something we could do, unique to this site and format, let’s make it a de facto rule of engagement.
Ideas?
December 5th, 2005 at 9:33 pm110: Susan: I have no problem with “charged” debate – but name calling and childish attacks don’t add anything to the discussion. I’m a big boy and can handle someone calling me names, but I don’t think it belongs on this or any forum. If some folks can’t express themselves without resorting to grade-school attacks, then they really don’t have any reason to be here. Of course, that’s just me. I grew out of the “are! are not! are!” “debates” way back when I was a teen. I’ve even gotten over the toilet-seat debates (up or down) – and I’m only in my 40s. :)
And, Judd – and all the other TP folks – keep up the great work!
December 5th, 2005 at 9:36 pm#111, I hear ya. When a troll appears lets just respond with…
What a Wally!
#112 To each his own, like I said, if it gets too boring I’ll find something else to do.
December 5th, 2005 at 9:52 pmAnti Warhol,
I love that idea. It could be any old arbitrary reply. A recipe works, maybe a home remedy for some unrelated ailment, a miscellaneous quote or your explanation for why gnomes live in the woods. That would be effective and might be fun.
Marie, I just wanted to say that you are consistently one of the best commenters here at TP and have been for a long time. Level-headed, always bringing something to the table…I never skip your posts. Thanks.
December 5th, 2005 at 10:00 pmHow about a “significance rank†like on Slashdot.org or digg.com? Readers can set their filter level so the troll’s nonsense can be kept out of what they see if desired. The more interesting/informative posts will rise to the top. Needless to say, registration will probably keep a lot of the off-topic, flame throwing to a minimum too.
December 5th, 2005 at 10:02 pmAnyone who compares a fellow American, including the President of the United States, to Hitler or the Nazis should be banned immediately. Give Godwin’s Law some teeth, Judd. :()
December 5th, 2005 at 10:04 pmAnti Warhol, DailyKos is famous for producing an uninterrupted stream of bile and hatred.
December 5th, 2005 at 10:06 pmThat true wwallace. Hitler was much smarter than Bush is. Hitler created his own reich. Bush is just along for the ride.
December 5th, 2005 at 10:09 pm#114, Thanks, Jay :)
December 5th, 2005 at 10:12 pmSpudge is calling names, because he has no arguments or ideas to offer.
December 5th, 2005 at 10:19 pmFirst, What a Wally!
Second, I live by the old addage, “keep your friends close and your enemies closer”. I want to know who my enemy is so I can defeat them.
Bushie’s biggest failure in Iraq is that our troops don’t know who the enemy is. Understanding the enemy will provide success.
Third, Some of the trolls around here may be online sexual predators. Law enforcement may be monitoring their activities and building a case against them.
Shutting them down would prove destructive to evidence collection.
Four, I agree Jay #114
Five, I agree SpudgeBoy #118
December 5th, 2005 at 10:24 pmIt looks like Susan is violating the Terms of Use with her personal attacks.
December 5th, 2005 at 10:25 pmStruck a nerve Wally? Thought I would.
December 5th, 2005 at 10:33 pmThanks especially for allowing tags. Allows a lot better interaction.
But is there any chance of getting a preview option?
December 5th, 2005 at 10:33 pmSusan, your repeated violations of the rules of this site don’t bother me at all. But if Judd is a man of his word, he’ll need to ban you.
December 5th, 2005 at 10:38 pmToo many are using this space as a chat room. It’s a comments area, not a chat.
While continuity is not generally enforced (or expected) on these sorts of fora, this one is absolutely thronged by OT posters. A fair number of posts – on the average – are simply ‘vanity posts’: someone felt like venting, completely off-topic, with no relationship to the associated blog post. Turns this into a undisciplined BB. Just my opinion, of course.
Trolls are fed, regularly. Some come here just to screech at them. Infantile.
Check out Kevin Drum’s Political Animal – a pretty good example of what a comments area can do to enhance the discussion. Some of the offerings are nearly blogs (good ones) in themselves.
Judd: preview option? Thanks for the hard work. Excellent layout (I’m a developer).
December 5th, 2005 at 10:38 pmThere’s plenty of bile and obscenity in the Political Animal comments.
December 5th, 2005 at 10:47 pm#121
“Spudge is calling names, because he has no arguments or ideas to offer.”
I didn’t call anybody any names. No, infact I agreed with you that people shouldn’t compare Bush and Hitler.
December 5th, 2005 at 10:54 pmFair enough Spudge, you did not call names. You merely repeated a petty and unoriginal insult. I stand corrected.
December 5th, 2005 at 10:57 pmJudd-
I have a brilliant idea….it my require a little programming, though.
When you have an obnoxious troll on board, perhaps you can implement a code enhancement such that his/her comments only show up on his/her machine. The person isn’t banned, then, it’s just that no one has to put up with their comments. They can keep busy generating insults that no one can read and we’ll all enjoy a better quality reading/commenting experience at TP. Everyone wins.
December 5th, 2005 at 11:10 pmThis place is becoming wimpy. Wimps turn me off big time.
Wimpyness is what got us in thiis mess in the first place.
The rules have been made. The Bushie regime has attacked every democrat on the planet and I for one will continue to attack back.
Ban me if you have to, I’ll live.
#130 I never read the trolls comments anyway. They offer the same talking points slugs like Condi and Rummy offer up. By the time the troll gets to the keyboard, I’ve heard it, its old spin.
December 5th, 2005 at 11:37 pmLet’s all make think progress the greatest blog on the internet.
December 5th, 2005 at 11:37 pmI didn’t call anybody any names. No, infact I agreed with you that people shouldn’t compare Bush and Hitler.
Comment by SpudgeBoy
I agree. Hitler was actually quite a charismatic public speaker and he did almost conquer the world, but he was batshit insane, like Tom DeLay or Bill O’Reilly. Bush is a dumb, incompetentent idiot, like his father.
December 5th, 2005 at 11:58 pm“Let’s all make think progress the greatest blog on the internet.”
Sweet, but I don’t know how to ban the trolls from my house.
December 5th, 2005 at 11:58 pmSusan, your repeated violations of the rules of this site don’t bother me at all. But if Judd is a man of his word, he’ll need to ban you.
Comment by wwallace — December 5, 2005 @ 10:38 pm
I don’t think Susan gives a rat’s ass or a gerbil’s fart. If she goes, you still have to deal with 99% of the rest of us. If you go, well… that’s basically half your representation here. And go you will. It’s going to be fun to watch.
December 6th, 2005 at 12:01 amThink Progress is not bad! Although lefties hate to hear dissent, TP lets “those who should not be heard” have a voice of contrarian opinion. Blog on TP!
December 6th, 2005 at 12:15 amSweet, but I don’t know how to ban the trolls from my house.
Comment by SpudgeBoy
I will give you all an addy for a hatefest blog I know. No holds barred.
Anti Warhol, DailyKos is famous for producing an uninterrupted stream of bile and hatred.
Comment by wwallace
Daily Kos alone is as large as the entire conservative blogosphere..
And the liberal blogosphere dwarfs cable news.
Trolls are essentially dwarves anyway. Scary how much the entire population of the country hates your conservative Republican guts, isn’t it? Where’d all that political capital go?
But, it’s the Holidays so let’s have a war on Xmas.
And here’s the DKos Trollhouse Cookbook. Don’t let the troll’s go to waste. If properly cooked, they make great dog biscuits.
December 6th, 2005 at 12:21 amCheck out Kevin Drum’s Political Animal – a pretty good example of what a comments area can do to enhance the discussion. Some of the offerings are nearly blogs (good ones) in themselves.
Comment by adios
LMAO! Surely you jest. Kevin’s site is a free for all, especially when Al shows up, or some of his ignorant trollish friends. If you want hi-tone, high context discourse I’d suggest Crooked Timber, Obsidian Wings or Left2Right. I’m sure there a many others but you need a Ph.D. at least to understand some of these people so you may not know what the hell they are talking about.
December 6th, 2005 at 12:38 amI already got banned from Huffingtonpost and I don’t even know what I did.
I usually try to keep a civil, if not droll tongue.
Oh well, hope I don’t get banned here too.:)
December 6th, 2005 at 12:51 amThe Neighbor is an Ex NSA kinda guy, Smart as a Whip, did all that Spooky stuff, he WAS Wise.
Till he met the Unwise. -Aj
December 6th, 2005 at 12:58 amlol Worfeus,,
-Aj
December 6th, 2005 at 1:03 am3 puters, OSX, Knoppix, XP, 98, et etc,,
har to BAN me all those, LOL, though they try. -Aj
…hi-tone, high context discourse…
Not what I had in mind. It’s not the ‘tone’ or the ‘context’ that I find attractive, but the content of the discussion. People posting with personal knowledge of the subject at hand. Links to related resources. Some sort of dialectic, even if it’s vehement.
I’ve learned to ignore Al, Patton, tbrosz and their ilk. You’re right, though, of late they’ve gotten nearly pathological. Oh well…
December 6th, 2005 at 1:07 amMain Entry: 1com·ment
Pronunciation: ‘kä-”ment
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin commentum, from Latin, invention, from neuter of commentus, past participle of comminisci to invent, from com- + -minisci (akin to ment-, mens mind) — more at MIND
1 : COMMENTARY
2 : a note explaining, illustrating, or criticizing the meaning of a writing
3 a : an observation or remark expressing an opinion or attitude b : a judgment expressed indirectly
Jus Commenting!
December 6th, 2005 at 1:28 amCheck out those 3 anyway, adios. You will find them very good. I was half-kidding about the Ph.D.s. I like dialogue and discourse that sends me to the dictionary from time to time. There will never be meaningful dialogue with the right in this country until the moderates on the right realize the damage that has been done by striking a devil’s bargain with the lunatic fringe to gain what has clearly become a Pyhrric victory. 2006 and 2008 are going to be bloodbaths for the Republicans. I’m stocking up on popcorn. Think Romero’s Dawn of the Dead.
December 6th, 2005 at 1:48 amAnd kill a capitalist for Christ. That’s irony… (maybe). Merry Christmas.
December 6th, 2005 at 1:50 amHoo-ray to having a substantive, civil discussion. RYAN.
December 6th, 2005 at 1:52 amLeft sites rarely ban. That’s more common on the right, or they just shut the comments off. Why? Because everyone hates them. But you can be banned just for disagreeing or not cheerleading Bushboy sufficiently enough. The right is all touchy-feely now, like mindless cultist moonies. If you want “real”, you hang out in the reality based community.
December 6th, 2005 at 1:54 amLike I said, I don’t know what I said, but it must have pissed someone off :|
AJ, LoL, I got dozens of pewters at mee disposal, an entire network actually, with 3 DS1’s all with different subnets.
I just figured if the Ms Huffington didn’t want my words I wasn’t gonna press the point. I figure, “he that has ears to hear…” know what I mean?
December 6th, 2005 at 2:13 amhey wwallace. I got a question for you.
I figure the wwallace is supposed to be a reference to William Wallace, right?
Or are you Chris Wallace, from fox news, in here getting material for your next broadcast?
Just curious. I mean, it could be William Christopher, or something. Just askin, don’t go off on me.
December 6th, 2005 at 2:16 amPragmatist,
Conversations require 2 people, and that’s a rare occurrence when conservatives are involved. When a conservative who’s capable of actually having a debate, and is knowledgeable enough to have one comes here, I’ll be glad to have that debate with them :()
December 6th, 2005 at 2:29 amKillCon your right, and he also had another similar trait.
He employed the same rigid, my way or the highway method of ruling.
There was no room for dissent, unless of course you were his spriritualist.
In fact, I always compare him to Hitler, there are just so many comparisons to make. Everything from his medicore history, his lackluster military career to the way he appointed incompetent and under qualified personnel to his cabinet. But the list is long, much longer than that.
I don’t like the idea, but I don’t judge the facts on how they make me feel, or on a preconcieved supposition, I just judge the facts. And the facts are Herr Busch (he is German after all)is using many of the same tactics used by the 3rd reich to restrict libery in our own country, and wage war in smaller defenseless countries for the purpose of profit.
If it were not so, then so many people, like former President Jimmy Carter would not be seeing the same things.
Jimmy Carter, who served onboard a Nuclear Submarine, who was a Scientist, and a devout Christian, oh yea, and he happened to be the President of the United States when Dubya was drilling dry wells, is not a traitor, and he is not a wimp. Try serving on board a sub as long as he did.
Carter has said some amazing things, both in his book, anbd on TV, and I think it’s about time we started to listen, before we wake up like the German people did, and say “hey, we thought they were buring rubbish”.
December 6th, 2005 at 2:48 amI’m with adios: “Too many are using this space as a chat room. It’s a comments area, not a chat.”
A blog ultimately belongs to its owners, who are free to publish content of their choosing and set a tone that appeals to the audience they’ve chosen. If the owners provide a comment area in the hope that others might engage in and expand upon discussion of topics raised, and feel that certain terms must be set to achieve that goal, that too is their right. I would go so far as to say it is their duty.
TP appears to have set some very reasonable terms for its site that it believes will further its goal of providing “a place where readers expand on the research in the posts” and would “improve the quality of the discourse.” If an audience exists for the type of site TP hopes to be, the blog will succeed. If not, the owners also have a right to fail.
What is clear to me is that TP’s attempt to provide responsible, thoughtful content is not being matched by those who comment. Dissent is one thing, but disruption is another and lately, I’ve seen too much of the latter.
Many of us are willing to listen any point of view but if you can’t be civil and on-topic, you’re wasting our time.
December 6th, 2005 at 3:55 amThinkprogress is usually my first stop to get the latest goings on in the states. Since I live in Australia I rarely get the kind of “media” coverage (note the quotes) that you guys are exposed to. The juxtaposition between Australian and American politics is just shocking to say the least. I dont think anyone in US politics would have any credibility after a week in the job down here!
What I like best about TP is its easy to read. So many other blogs clutter the page space with too much info. TP makes stuff easy to absorb!
And just one suggestion. Can someone oh someone cover this story (link below) about the East Timor invasion and the US administrations support for an illegal invasion, funded and equipped by the US. So far ive only seen Al-Jazeera pick it up and its the kinda thing Bloggers go nuts over. Hell Paul Wolfowitz was indonesian ambassador, youd think it would have legs!
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/F1202B5F-B947-4AA8-ABF0-4A68C43F82B9.htm
December 6th, 2005 at 6:21 amYou have a right to be derogatory to someone when you have developed a relationship with them. Esp. if it is the basis of your relationship as it generally is between trolls and progs.
December 6th, 2005 at 6:53 amThe rules describe context in a vacuum. Our relationships are not in this vacuum.
re: 154. You can be derogatory to your heart’s content but what TP is saying is that it’s inappropriate here.
December 6th, 2005 at 8:26 am“Be careful in the casting out of your demons in that you may cast out the best part of yourself”. Meant for the individual, this also applies to human organizations that promote any kind of creativity or spontaneity.
The new rules, if enforced strictly, would lead to a giant snoozefest fairly quickly.
My solution? No individual comment should be banned. REPEATED comments banned, strings of insults, strings of comments off topic,etc.,and repeated violators.
December 6th, 2005 at 9:04 amRight on, #110, SUSAN!
December 6th, 2005 at 9:10 amWell, since this is a democracy after all, let’s vote on it. Who would like to see I-RIGHT-I banned?
Vote:
Yes: He’s a nuisance and an ingrate. He’s a bad Christian and even if he weren’t everybody knows Christians are clinically insane. It bothers me just to share bandwidth with him. It hurts my feelings and damages my self esteem every time he mentions the “Filthy Left” and tells me why it is I fit the profile. Ban him for life or longer if that’s possible.
No: I think he’s cute and even if he is a liar, cheats on his wife, is a suspected serial killer and is known to have sold indispensable ICBM technology to a country that has since threatened us with nuclear obliteration, I want to keep him because he makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
There ya go folks. Since this is a democracy after all, I will abide by the rule of the majority. Just be gentle, my feelers are already very tender.
December 6th, 2005 at 9:14 amI got a question about all this. Suppose I-RIGHT-I, NED or one of the other trolls comes out and calls my mama a big, fat, listless liberal-breeding liar and makes me mad.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but would I be banned from TP for threatening to beat the tar out of them down at the bar if I found them before they could sneak out the back door? I mean, even if I promise not to call any of them a dipstick or nazi or such?
December 6th, 2005 at 9:21 amI wouldn’t throw that out for a vote too quick I-AMALWAYSWRONG-I
I doubt everyone shares my propensity towards free speech:)
December 6th, 2005 at 9:23 amJohn in #156 pretty much has it right. This site is not — and will never be — about banning people. We hope never to have to ban anyone. The only people who will be ban are people who, over a period of time, demonstrate they are simply interested in infecting the discussion with personal attacks.
December 6th, 2005 at 9:24 amJudd et alius,
Thanks for your hard work. Blogging is part obsession, part sleep deprivation. Doing it well requires that, plus a quick mind and a joy for the work. You all do so very well.
For those needin a primer in HTML code, Daily Kos has a good one, as does Wikipedia. A preview button would help folks learn, Judd.
Here’s my one and only suggestion: I would like to know more about local and live speaking events in Washington. What’s going on live around town. I don’t mean social events. I mean, trying to know when our elected and appointed official are available for public viewing.
I wouldn’t even know how to go about finding this information out. Any suggestions would be helpful.
Again, good work.
December 6th, 2005 at 9:29 amJust read this speech by Rick Perlstein:
‘I Didn’t Like Nixon Until Watergate’: The Conservative Movement Now
It explains quite well what I was trying to say, which I colorfully put as “I wouldn’t pee on one (a conservative) to put them out if they were on fire”.
It’s a mental disorder. It needs to be eradicated. It does too much damage.
December 6th, 2005 at 10:18 amIt’s a mental disorder. It needs to be eradicated. It does too much damage.
Comment by KillCon2006
I think there’s a better argument for the other way around. Liberalism is a mental disorder. Humm…I think there’s a book out by that title too. I can’t think of one Leftist policy/philosophy that isn’t intrinsically deadly to a healthy human psyche.
December 6th, 2005 at 10:27 amJohn in #156 pretty much has it right. This site is not — and will never be — about banning people. We hope never to have to ban anyone. The only people who will be ban are people who, over a period of time, demonstrate they are simply interested in infecting the discussion with personal attacks.
Comment by Judd
Hey Spudge….neener, neener, neeeeeeeeneeeeer. It should be clear even to a burger flipper intellect like yours that I don’t fit Judd’s criteria for a troll, comments about the date I had with your sister notwithstanding.
December 6th, 2005 at 10:32 amJudd,
Just to be clear, you say that John pretty much has it right. One of John’s points was:
The new rules, if enforced strictly, would lead to a giant snoozefest fairly quickly.
Do you believe that the most disruptive elements serve to make this sight more provocative or interesting? Do you believe that the I-RIGHT-I and wwallace’s actually add value?
I’d really like to know if that’s your stance.
December 6th, 2005 at 10:50 amJay, I have a question for you. Do you believe that Ryan adds value? He cannot respond without an insult. Just pull up any thread where he has posted and he is calling somebody a name. Everytime. He is without a doubt the worst offender.
I agree like Judd said that John had it right. If it becomes apparent that the purpose is personal attacks then it would be better for that person to be suspended. A lot of time has been spent on saying that opposing views are trolls. Maybe some of the opposing views find that this site allows them to hear the points of view from people that disagree with their own. Sometimes those views offer a perspective not previously considered.
December 6th, 2005 at 11:08 amThe new rules, if enforced strictly, would lead to a giant snoozefest fairly quickly.
Do you believe that the most disruptive elements serve to make this sight more provocative or interesting? Do you believe that the I-RIGHT-I and wwallace’s actually add value?
I’d really like to know if that’s your stance.
Comment by Jay
BJ, your problem is that you just don’t have a sense of humor. It could also be that (quelle surprise) Judd doesn’t hold to your personal belief that opposing viewpoints necessarily constitute trolling and disruptive behavior.
In any case I don’t see the point in you questioning what he’s already said in hopes of trapping him in some kind of viewpoint discordant with the prevailing tyrannical Left wing correctness you and so many others hold to be the new First Amendment.
Perhaps this place isn’t evil and fascist enough for you. I can recommend Democratic Underground where they have one party spy for every three posters and the average life of an opposing viewpoint is 2 minutes.
December 6th, 2005 at 11:12 amWell Judd, this all sounds wonderful, if it works to tone us all down and keep on point. Please excuse my foul language and forgetfulness to staying on point. If I do forget though or a radical right wing nut job sets me off and I respond in kind I won’t be offended to be booted off. Since I am working on Impeaching the reich wingers, trying to save the people and the planet I have lot’s to do and will find another place to get information…Blessings
December 6th, 2005 at 11:17 amBen,
I do think Ryan adds value, when he avoids the pissing matches, definitely. As much as I agree with Ryan’s facts, he certainly is one of the people on this blog who needs to stay away from the personal smears. In my opinion, Ryan knows this and I think he’ll do what’s best for ThinkProgress. He invests a lot of thought and energy into getting his information right and I’m sure he wants this blog to be better as much as anyone. It’s hard to break the cycle of bomb-throwing, but we all have to be mature enough to ignore our basest instincts if it means a better product. I have faith that Ryan will do the right thing because he shows by virtue of his stance on most of the issues, he’s got his priorities right. I can’t say the same for I-R-I et al.
December 6th, 2005 at 11:20 amSticks and stones gentlemen, sticks and stones.
I for one don’t care what I-AMALWAYSSOFREAKINGWRONG-I calls me. It’s a blog, I got an opinion, and I imagine I will be called names for it. So?
But when guys like I-TRYBUTCANTHELPBEINGSODAMNEDWRONG-I post their comments, it makes it easy for a 3rd party and fencesitter to see the absolute Goebels like propaganda that these guys actually believe.
When they quote brainless gems like this one
### “I can’t think of one Leftist policy/philosophy that isn’t intrinsically deadly to a healthy human psyche” ###
Comment by I-STILLAMSOOOOWRONGANDALWAYSWILLBE-I.
The beauty of that little gem, is it’s in PRINT! For all the world to see.
You can’t BUY good stuff like that. Guys like him are the best arguments for our side that we could ever hope for.
That kinda stuff just sells itself!
December 6th, 2005 at 11:21 amI just don’t find you funny.
Oh, and here’s an excellent recipe for shepherd’s pie:
* 1 1/2 pounds lean ground beef
* 2 tablespoon butter
* 1 teaspoon Worcestershire sauce
* 2 eggs, separated
* 6 tablespoons butter
* 8 potatoes, peeled, boiled, and mashed
* 1 cup finely chopped onion
* 1 tablespoon ketchup
* beef broth
* 1/2 cup heavy cream
* 1/4 teaspoon garlic powder
* Parmesan cheese
Brown ground beef and sauté onions in 2 tablespoons butter until golden. Mix ground beef with onions, ketchup, Worcestershire sauce, salt, and pepper. Add a few tablespoons of beef broth and cook, covered, over low heat for 15 to 20 minutes, adding more beef broth as necessary to keep moist. Beat egg yolks until light, then in another bowl, beat whites until stiff. Beat the yolks, cream, 6 tablespoons butter, and garlic powder into hot mashed potatoes. Gently fold in beaten egg whites. Put meat mixture into a casserole then top with potato mixture. Sprinkle with Parmesan cheese and bake at 350° until potato topping is puffed and
December 6th, 2005 at 11:24 amWho was that directed towards Jay?
December 6th, 2005 at 11:26 am#168 WORFEUS.
December 6th, 2005 at 11:27 amJus curious ;)
I doubt he knows how to cook though, maybe if you substituted venison.
December 6th, 2005 at 11:31 amThey got dick Cheney on msnbc right now. I had to shut it off, I allmost Puked.
December 6th, 2005 at 12:02 pmThey are getting too much News Coverage!
like I say, Freedom is NOT Free!
Hey Jay, Thanks for the Recipe, I copied it. You know us Country Bumpkins, We take what we can Get.
December 6th, 2005 at 12:06 pmBlessed Are the Poor Shepherds. Not the Wolves.
At least Poor Shepherds know how hard it is to find Green Pastures, Unlike IwrongI.
December 6th, 2005 at 12:09 pmAnd Shepherds DO Share.
unlike Ranchers
December 6th, 2005 at 12:09 pmIMHO, there are those guilty of degenerate comments on both the progressive and conservative side. I haven’t posted here (or anywhere for that matter) long, but am careful to answer/rebut comments that I disagree with without calling into question the others intentions. Saying your point is stupid seems fine to me … saying YOU are stupid is not.
The other thing that impedes free debate here is that most don’t offer point then counter-point. I get a lot of comments in the “that’s been debunked” or “you’re using right wing talking points” or “I hope you die” vein, but rarely is there a FAIR discourse (Spudge and Gregor (among others) have always been civil). The issues that are being discussed are often complex (not black and white) but are breezed over by some (not all) … when I point this out … I get flamed. Heck, Ryan even responded to one of my points by slandering my children (I’m not insulted, but it was over the top). I enjoy this forum precisely b/c there are those of you out there that will actually have a reasoned debate.
December 6th, 2005 at 12:12 pmOne more thing … I’ve been adding to my Name each time I get a new iteration … I could accuse some of being anti-Italian, but I’m sure most didn’t even know it was Italian. I think “GeoMetro” was the most creative (credit to Ryan) and whomever it was that coined “Jocko-Homo” is certainly a poor “progressive”.
December 6th, 2005 at 12:15 pmWhen they quote brainless gems like this one
### “I can’t think of one Leftist policy/philosophy that isn’t intrinsically deadly to a healthy human psyche†###
Comment by I-STILLAMSOOOOWRONGANDALWAYSWILLBE-I.
The beauty of that little gem, is it’s in PRINT! For all the world to see.
You can’t BUY good stuff like that. Guys like him are the best arguments for our side that we could ever hope for.
That kinda stuff just sells itself!
Comment by WORFEUS
Wow, that was easy wasn’t it? Just call it wack and go on about your business of treating those with a different world view as something to poop on. I can back up my statement. As always I don’t ask a question I don’t already know the answer to and I know what I’m going to say in response before you even read my post. That’s how predictable you are. That’s why no one around here will stand toe to toe with the members of “The Church of Moral Clarity and Invincible Intellect “.
December 6th, 2005 at 12:25 pmWhen is the IMPEACHMENT Proceedings Going to Start?
December 6th, 2005 at 12:26 pmAmerica can Wait NO Longer!
Sirs
I just sent my opinon piece of “Bush ScissorsHands” and I would like to see it listed in your blog. Question: how would I go about it?
Armando
December 6th, 2005 at 12:35 pmFor anyone who can’t think of one Leftist policy/philosophy that isn’t intrinsically deadly to a healthy human psyche, I would suggest Universal Health Care.
December 6th, 2005 at 2:22 pmI’m with adios: “Too many are using this space as a chat room. It’s a comments area, not a chat.â€
If you have a problem with people taking the time to get to know each other than you should consider yourself an anti-social.
By chatting we get to know each other and share things in common. Marie and I found out that we live in the same county and have attended the same peace rally.
If you have a problem with that I suggest pyschiatric treatment for you.
December 6th, 2005 at 2:39 pmGiacomo,
Even if few others say it, I believe that you have been constructive in your attempts to debate. You are one of the few avowed conservatives who don’t use this site to hurl insults and less-than-helpful responses. We who want to have honest debate welcome people such as yourself. I have often wished for someone who could tell me the conservative side of things so that I can better understand why some people do not believe in our liberal philosophy. But understand that liberals as a whole often don’t share the same viewsd on solutions. Many have their own personal interests (environment, corrupt politics, freedom over one’s own body, etc.)
I should point out, however, that I do not believe in the conservative philosophy and I will attempt to point out what I think is wrong with that kind of thinking when I can. But I make a promise to you that I will never insult you personally, only the ideas I disagree with. You seem like a nice enough person.
Keep visiting us. We need to hone our debating skills and an opposing viewpoint is helpful to us. Thanks for being a part of this great website.
And I would further suggest that people visit http://www.politicalcompass.org to help them better understand where their own views fit on the poitical spectrum. “Left” and “Right” just aren’t enough if one doesn’t take into account the “Libertarian” and “Authoritarian” aspect of their views, too. (I turned out to be Liberal/Libertarian myself. I learned something.)
December 6th, 2005 at 3:05 pmThe kind of people who are most likely to contribute high-quality thoughtful comment (the kind I like to think I’ve contributed in my rare appearances here) are also the ones least likely to waste their time wading through comments threads that are full of intellectual sewage.
Give me a high-class joint to hang out in, and I’ll be there. I’m a policy wonk at heart, and would love to contribute my thoughts and experience to TP’s efforts at creating good options for a progressive future. But the way the comments have been managed so far make them worthless to me. If I want to read right-wing drivel, Right Blogistan is always just a few keystrokes away.
I’m damn near 50 years old, and have done my time in playground sandboxes. There’s a life-or-death conversation we need to be having about where this country is going, and TP is one of the main places we should be having it. The trolls bring nothing of value to it.
And those who own this space are well within their rights to insist on civility and proper housebreaking on the part of their guests.
December 6th, 2005 at 3:15 pmGiacomo,
Even if few others say it, I believe that you have been constructive in your attempts to debate. You are one of the few avowed conservatives who don’t use this site to hurl insults and less-than-helpful responses. We who want to have honest debate welcome people such as yourself.
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider
With all due respect to you, Mr. Schneider, I wholeheartedly disagree. He is nothing more than an “anarcho-capitalist” ideologue, parroting his ridiculous libertarian nonsense. His rosy assertions with respect to our “roaring economy” on another thread attest to that. I wouldn’t pee on him to put him out if he was on fire but you are free to put him out if you sincerely believe he should be saved. He has definitely set himself on fire smoking something. Probably “objectivist crack” he bought from a bad Ayn Rand romance novel.
December 6th, 2005 at 3:19 pmOkay, KillCon 2006, that’s one view.
I haven’t been posting here that long but whenever I have looked, I haven’t noticed the kind of juvenile responses that I see my “friend” wwallace post (and others.)
Perhaps Giacomo’s ideas do not merit your respect, nor perhaps even mine, but he seems less likely to turn the discussion into a free-for-all than even some on the liberal side to.
That’s all I’m saying. Would you rather debate an issue with Gioacomo or any of I-R-I, wwallace or NED?
As I said, I may think he’s flat out wrong, but at least my head isn’t banging on the keyboard like it was last Saturday. And I try to be respectful until I’m left with no choice.
Besides, I’m looking to get at the root ideas of conserrvatism to better understand how all the rest of it flows from there. And those others I mentioned most definitely do not help me get there. But thanks for sharing your views. Peace to you in the New Year, my friend. Peace to us all.
December 6th, 2005 at 3:43 pmRyan is one of the smartest and best commenters here. He was personally attacked first, as is everyone, including Judd and the site in general by the trolls in question. That’s there “job” here. TP isn’t comprised of stupid people. They know what’s going on. The next “objective” of the trolls is to get someone like Ryan or Spudge banned. I don’t think they are smart enough, or nuanced enough to pull it off. They will be the first to go if anyone goes. This is their M.O.:
The only people who will be ban are people who, over a period of time, demonstrate they are simply interested in infecting the discussion with personal attacks.
Comment by Judd
December 6th, 2005 at 3:45 pmEven the conservatives at Obsidian Wings or Left2Right would ban these trolls as an embarassment to conservative thought.
December 6th, 2005 at 3:47 pmI would think that Ryan Neat’s #185 is one of the style of posts covered by the new decree, no? (I mention the name ‘cuz I’m unsure whether things get re-numbered if a post gets deleted.)
Here’s a constructive suggestion: A forum section of the site or as an “official” associate of the TP site. The thing about comment threads in blogs is that after a bit, people wander over to the new threads and what remains are the more argumentative “true believers” of all sides …
… sometimes I fantasize that they’re working in concert and in each thread the rest of us abandon in disgust, they go “Is it clear?” “Yeah!” “Great! Let’s get back to the REAL business …” and go on to talk porn or how to overthrow the world or maybe hockey. (Or some “Bob”-forsaken combination!)
So anyway, a forum would be a place where actual discussions would be less prone to quick decay.
December 6th, 2005 at 4:19 pmPS: If I’d seen this TP entry when it was brand new and I knew it’d be the first post, I would have posted:
Pointing in random direction. He started it!
December 6th, 2005 at 4:21 pmAny blog that stands up against, “simply hurling insults at other people,” has got my vote! Let’s keep TP moving up!
December 6th, 2005 at 4:35 pmFor anyone who can’t think of one Leftist policy/philosophy that isn’t intrinsically deadly to a healthy human psyche, I would suggest Universal Health Care.
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider
See there, you’ve proposed a solution that is a proven killer. You wait in line for years (or die trying) like the Kanookistanians if you want to but I’ll pay as I go thank you very much.
December 6th, 2005 at 5:20 pmMizzWrong needs free mental health care. Like most republicans, she’s too cheap to pay for the obvious treatment she so clearly requires. Poor pathetic thing…
December 6th, 2005 at 5:54 pmMizzWrong,
Where’s your drag queen persona MightyHermaphrodite? When you get smashed, you tout her out as your ‘protector’ – aren’t you feeling smashed yet? Because from what I’ve seen, everyone today has made you look impotent.
December 6th, 2005 at 5:55 pmJust John
December 6th, 2005 at 5:56 pmI agree with yhou about Ryan Neat and his postings. He is one of the biggest offenders – but he won’t get banned – cause he and a few others are the backbone of this blog. They basically talk to each other for hours on end and blow anyone away who dares to enter and state a differing opinion – just try saying something negative about the Clintons and you get called all kinds of nasty names. All this hogwash stated above about high-minded discussion and research is laughable. And why do people feel the need to drape themselves in the cloak of intellectualism when all they really want to do is head bang all day and night?
See there, you’ve proposed a solution that is a proven killer. You wait in line for years (or die trying) like the Kanookistanians if you want to but I’ll pay as I go thank you very much.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I
Any proof of that claim. I thought not. You wait for elective surgery, like the face-lift your wife needs, even though it may kill you to have to gaze on that frightening visage for one more day.
December 6th, 2005 at 6:13 pm#201 — I prefer to complain about specific posts, rather than any poster, but I think #185 is a good, basic test of whether the “Improve ThinkProgress” article is meant sincerely or not.
I do enjoy headbanging, in several of its meanings. For sheer, fun yelling at people, I prefer to take it to usenet groups like alt.slack, where it’s pretty much expected and nobody can take anything too seriously.
December 6th, 2005 at 6:21 pmThat’s all I’m saying. Would you rather debate an issue with Gioacomo or any of I-R-I, wwallace or NED?
None of them. They have all been discredited time and time again. Even actual Republicans and actual conservatives don’t debate them anymore. If they do they get treated to the special treatment Bruce Bartlett got. They are deluded and insane in their new touchy-feely messianic zeal. They are cultists and will likely end up in a burning compound like David Koresh some day soon. The sooner the better. Good riddance to bad rubbish. You should know you can’t have a meaningful dialogue with “true believers”. Be they radical fundies of any flavor or the “marxists of the right”.
December 6th, 2005 at 6:22 pmThis is all a moot point anyway. Just wait until the election campaigning begins in earnest. Smears “R” Us and I hope the left smears the right so bad their future children are afraid to pop their heads out of the womb to be born. In this case the smears will just happen to be true.
December 6th, 2005 at 6:28 pmHe is nothing more than an “anarcho-capitalist†ideologue, parroting his ridiculous libertarian nonsense. His rosy assertions with respect to our “roaring economy†on another thread attest to that.
If you wish to slander someone, at least make sure your facts are straight. The “roaring economy” statement was not said by me (although I did post that the indicators are pointing toward solid growth). As far as I can remember, yesterday was the 1st day we “conversed” … out of 6 posts or so that you referenced me, 5 of them only served as attacks ad hominem (with 1 containing a candid response). You, and to a similar extent Ryan, discredit your opinions and yourselves by stooping to depraved attacks and baseless accusations.
They are cultists and will likely end up in a burning compound like David Koresh some day soon. The sooner the better. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
This comment is not only sad … it’s sickening. I’ve been labelled a “nazi” (by Ryan) for having a dissenting comment … your statement reflects a level of disdain and lack of civility that far more resembles such evil.
December 6th, 2005 at 6:57 pm[...] Think Progress – Help Improve ThinkProgress [...]
December 6th, 2005 at 7:03 pmIwrongI , for your info, this is not a republican blog, allthough republicans are welcome, just accept the punishments and say you are sorry. we,ll forgive you, NOT!
December 6th, 2005 at 8:23 pmRe 202….
Let’s use hip replacement as an example. Is it elective? Of course. It’s not a life or death issue. Canadian doctors recently recommended shortening wait times to 9 months for hip replacement even though their research shows that waiting past 6 months can result in a decline in health. Yep. That Universal healthcare is a real treat. While your mother lives in agony for a year waiting for hip surgery, my mother can see a doctor, be refered to a specialist and leave the hospital with a new hip within a month. Wow! That universal healthcare sure is wonderful!
December 6th, 2005 at 8:27 pmComment #211 clearly violates the Terms of Use. Where’s Judd? He doesn’t seem to be making good on his promises. :()
December 6th, 2005 at 9:56 pmRyan,
What gives? You’ve gone right along and cranked up the personal attacks after being asked by our gracious hosts to tone it down. Come on man, you are much better than that. Show some good faith and ignore the trolls!
December 6th, 2005 at 10:04 pmHey I-AMTOOSTUPIDTOEVERBERIGHTAINT-I,
“That’s why no one around here will stand toe to toe with the members of “The Church of Moral Clarity and Invincible Intellect”
Are you kidding me?
Like I said, this stuff just “sells itself”.
December 6th, 2005 at 11:03 pmSieg Heil there buddy, Sieg freakin Heil……
December 6th, 2005 at 11:09 pmOh and if that is a bootable comment, sorry.
I just call em as I see em.
December 7th, 2005 at 12:48 amryan’s post is unmerited and shows poor character. you cannot have it both ways ryan, posting thoughtful comments on moment and then turning the flamethrower on people the next. it is called character, and you dissipate any respect for your thoughts, however well-formed they may be, by launching into people in that way.
i read over our Italian friend’s comments twice and he did not merit being called a Nazi on the basis of what he said. people moan continually about a White House who never acknowledge errors and never apologizes, but when did anyone ever see an apology on one of these threads? surely everyone here can’t be the bastard sons and daughters of Bush and Cheney?
December 7th, 2005 at 1:51 amand ryan, don’t compound matters by flaming me. that will only prove my argument and raise blood pressures. and i am singling you out because you are a GOOD poster most of the time, not because you’re a bad guy or anything.
December 7th, 2005 at 1:52 amI’ll flame you for him.
Putz.
Ryan’s posts are not particularly egregious. I have been here awhile and seen Ryan’s posts transform over time. He spent considerable time and effort here debunking these ass clown’s bullshit in a very logical and non-personal manner and fashion. They singled him out and attacked him personally for it because he was a threat to their bullshit. At least he always posts under his one name. The rest of them are about three people at most. As far as I’m conserned, if anyone deserves a pass it’s Ryan and if you don’t agree you just don’t know or are a troll yourself.
December 7th, 2005 at 6:27 amThis comment is not only sad … it’s sickening. I’ve been labelled a “nazi†(by Ryan) for having a dissenting comment … your statement reflects a level of disdain and lack of civility that far more resembles such evil.
Comment by Giacomo
I don’t give a rat’s ass what you think. You are just lucky you are not on fire… yet.
December 7th, 2005 at 6:28 amI see a bunch of comments were deleted, and now we know the numbering gets reset when that happens.
(Just in case you came in late and wonder why #209 talks about #211.)
So I imagine we’ll have to adopt a different strategy when referring to posts. Perhaps the timestamp instead of the number?
December 7th, 2005 at 8:38 amSo I imagine we’ll have to adopt a different strategy when referring to posts. Perhaps the timestamp instead of the number?
Comment by just john
Why not just quote or paraphrse the quote like I do? But try not to change the words when you do it like Ryan and some of the others do. That’s really not very nice.
December 7th, 2005 at 9:14 amIwrongI , for your info, this is not a republican blog, allthough republicans are welcome,
Comment by freedom is not free!
Really? I never would have known had you not told me but I do feel the love.
just accept the punishments and say you are sorry. we,ll forgive you, NOT!
Comment by freedom is not free!
I’m sorry you’re so stupid. How’s that?
December 7th, 2005 at 9:16 amRE: I-RIGHT-I — December 7, 2005 @ 9:14 am
a) I don’t like how it looks, in many cases here. For usenet, there is a lot of newsreading software that handles quote cascades in a predictable manner, but here we have to do it semi-manually.
b) Selecting a bit of a comment to reply to is a tricky thing and often leads to gripes about not providing enough context.
c) As you can see above, grabbing everything to the right of the “Comment by” line seems pretty easy.
December 7th, 2005 at 9:33 amI think it’s important to point out why the NAZI references flow in almost ANY political blog where those who disagree with this 4th Reich,,,,,er Bush Administration.
There are those Americans who believe that in order to not repeat the mistakes of history, we must learn from the mistakes of history.
And learning, means be able to recognize the same trappings that lead to the downfall of Germany.
It is important to remember that to truly love, means the willingess to correct. So to truly love ones country, we must possess the capability to correct it when the danger of losing our way is evident.
To dismiss such criticisms as “over the top” is to blind oneself to the lessons of history. No one is saying we are NAZI Germany, yet.
But we are saying that it is clear to millions, and millions of Americans, not to mention hundreds of millions citizens of the world can clearly see similar trappings between the new “iron rule” of the Bush admin, and the blind obedience demanded by those who follow them.
So in a nutshell, if you don’t like being compared to NAZI’s, then stop acting like NAZI’s.
Over the Holocaust Mueseum here in DC, is an inscription that reads, “So we may never forget”.
Some of us, are trying not to.
December 7th, 2005 at 10:50 amRE: WORFEUS — December 7, 2005 @ 10:50 am
There’s a hoary (by net standards) bit of wisdom called “Godwin’s Law” that you might consider looking up.
December 7th, 2005 at 11:05 amI am familiar with the concept, and that concept, is PRECISELY what I am talking about.
Such dismissive statements, that “ohhh, your over the top when you say Nazi” ENSURES that we ignore the mistakes of the past.
Just because you don’t like the comparisons, does NOT mean they do not exist. And just because some guy named Mike Godwin decided that arguments are over once the Nazi comparison is made, does not mean that the argument does not have merit.
CS Lewis said the simplest way for the Devil to succeed, is to convince us he does not exist.
And the easiest way to make SURE we repeat the mistakes of history, is to IGNORE them, or label the very mentioning of them as “over the top” or seditious.
Sorry, but this AMERICAN is not going to be “lulled to sleep” so easily.
I for one see precise similarities between the “blind obedience” required by your party, and the rise of Nazi Germany.
And I for one, see precise similarities between Dubya’s insistence on Secret Prisons, invading and occupying smaller defenseless countries, his insistence on being able to lock people up without cause, warrant or writ, his insistence that he needs to torture them, his defining a “holy war†against a certain religion and ALL it’s people, and the list goes on and on.
Now, I am sure all good little republicans would rather we ignore these similarities, I mean, they are striking in their comparisons and they are soooo unpleasant.
But I am not going to sit by, and watch as our country tortures, wages war, imprisons without cause or writ, lies and deceives, and does it all under a Christian banner without at least speaking out.
If you don’t like it, well, tough. War is “hardâ€, remember?
December 7th, 2005 at 11:28 amGiacomo,
If you are willing, I’m wondering if you could help me understand how my “political opposites” think. I promise not to be insulting, and I have an idea of how to procede. Hopefully, TP will keep this post going long enough for both of us to learn (well, maybe you don’t need it as much as I do.) We both might have to bookmark it or save it as a favorite to find it more easily.
So, I would like to ask you a series of multiple choice questions. Usually there will be two choices and you pick the best answer. You can add clarifying comments afterwards, that’s okay. I will respond with what my answer was and also elaborate. I promise that I will be civil, but I can make no promises about anyone else. I welcome others to answer the questions, too, but I hope they are honest and sincere in their responses. The questions will be numbered and I ask that you number the responses (question number, not post number) so that it’s easier for us both to keep track. We can start with one question at a time.
Question #1:
Which of the following most closely resembles your view of the world:
A) The world is a dangerous place and it always will be
or
B) The world is a dangerous place but it can be made better
For purposes of this question, it is understood that there will always be poisonous animals, mutating viruses, and deadly weather phenomena. “Dangerous” primarily refers to other people. And by “better”, I mean either less dangerous because of the people or even not so dangerous at all because of people.
Thanks for playing. If anyone else wants to follow along constructively, I welcome that. I do not welcome insults and trash talks. Numbering the questions helps those who jump in late. I have to do this at work, so I will not always be able to repsond immediately. Check the thread when the opportunity arises to see the next response. Weekend responses are unlikely (I have to go into the office), but not altogether impossible.
And Giacomo, please believe me when I tell you that I am not trying to “set you up” for some later attack. I honestly want to learn. Thanks.
December 7th, 2005 at 12:48 pmc) As you can see above, grabbing everything to the right of the “Comment by†line seems pretty easy.
Comment by just john
Yep, not a bad way to do it. I like to quote the guy I’m responding to most of the time to give the folks here some perspective to my reply. If there’s one thing a Progressive needs it’s a perspective. They really don’t have one you know.
December 7th, 2005 at 2:41 pmOver the Holocaust Mueseum here in DC, is an inscription that reads, “So we may never forgetâ€.
Some of us, are trying not to.
Comment by WORFEUS
I haven’t forgotten how you caused us to lose the Vietnam War and thereby killing over a million innocent S. Vietnamese and Cambodians, and neither have our allies in the former Soviet Union forgotten how you didn’t care if they were slaves to that communist state. We all agree that the Filthy Left must be defeated.
How do you live with yourself?
December 7th, 2005 at 2:49 pmAnd Giacomo, please believe me when I tell you that I am not trying to “set you up†for some later attack. I honestly want to learn. Thanks.
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider
You really want to learn? How did you like the description of Conservative and Liberal from Burke? Did you learn anything?
December 7th, 2005 at 2:51 pmI for one see precise similarities between the “blind obedience†required by your party, and the rise of Nazi Germany.
Comment by WORFEUS
You have confused “obedience” with “agreement”. That’s natural for a Leftist who has been taught the two are the same.
December 7th, 2005 at 2:54 pmI know you’re not setting me up … I’ve read your comments in the past and haven’t seen you torch anyone. I think you’ll find that my take on the world is not all too different from yours … how I might get there could vastly differ (but maybe not).
To preface, because I think it matters, I live in NC but grew up in upstate NY and still consider that home. I’m 32 have an undergraduate degree in Psychology and Human Resources and an MBA from UNC … I’m married (for ten years … yes I got married young) with children (biological and adopted). I am a Christian that attends a baptist church who purposefully seceded from the Southern Baptist Convention (the guys that boycott Disney World) because they have become legalistic and rigid. I work in the financials industry and am solidly middle to upper middle class. I voted Republican for president for as long as I’ve been voting, but Democrat for governor the last two times. I hate that NC has the “vote straight party ticket” option and spend some time on who I vote for. I am fiscally conservative and occasionally socially liberal (ie. I don’t agree with the death penalty).
Question #1
Answer B – The world is dangerous but most certainly can be made better …
Any Christian, in my opinion, must believe this at the most basic level … if the world cannot be made better (and people aren’t actively trying to make it so), then there is zero purpose for our existance on it.
December 7th, 2005 at 3:01 pmI see a bunch of comments were deleted, and now we know the numbering gets reset when that happens.
(Just in case you came in late and wonder why #209 talks about #211.)
So I imagine we’ll have to adopt a different strategy when referring to posts. Perhaps the timestamp instead of the number?
Comment by just john — December 7, 2005 @ 8:38 am
No comments have been deleted. if they were, it would say ‘comment deleted”.
Now we know “just john” is one of the new names used by our three resident trolls.
December 7th, 2005 at 3:21 pmQuestion #1
Answer B – The world is dangerous but most certainly can be made better …
Any Christian, in my opinion, must believe this at the most basic level … if the world cannot be made better (and people aren’t actively trying to make it so), then there is zero purpose for our existance on it.
Comment by Giacomo
No offense but you will not find that a Christian MUST believe that the world can be made better in any scripture. We can improve our lot and those of our neighbors, we can sacrifice and play some small part in alleviating suffering. we can build a great nation but a Fundamentalist Christian worldview does not allow for a better and better world to come. Just the opposite in fact. And the opposite has been proven. The Utopia envisioned by the Philosophies of the Enlightenment and the Romantics has not come to pass. This is a fallen world and as such is doomed. Merry Christmas. Oh….If we can make this world better and better….why did Christ have to die on that cross? Was God hedging His bets? I think maybe you were better off in the Southern convention.
December 7th, 2005 at 3:21 pmI haven’t forgotten how you caused us to lose the Vietnam War and thereby killing over a million innocent S. Vietnamese and Cambodians, and neither have our allies in the former Soviet Union forgotten how you didn’t care if they were slaves to that communist state. We all agree that the Filthy Left must be defeated.
How do you live with yourself?
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — December 7, 2005 @ 2:49 pm
Deluded moron.
Any Christian, in my opinion, must believe this at the most basic level … if the world cannot be made better (and people aren’t actively trying to make it so), then there is zero purpose for our existance on it.
Comment by Giacomo (aka GeoMetro & Jocko-Homo & Jerkamo) — December 7, 2005 @ 3:01 pm
Oh Jeebus. You are a mess. And you think religion and conservatism will make the world better? That’s reminds me of Einstein’s astute definition of insanity. No wonder I don’t like you. You are so 19th century.
December 7th, 2005 at 3:26 pmI think maybe you were better off in the Southern convention.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — December 7, 2005 @ 3:21 pm
At least you are making some slow progress, Giacomo, even if you seem content to take two steps back for every half step forward. IRI is just backward. He is the poster child for retrograde motion. He’s not even 17th century.
December 7th, 2005 at 3:32 pmIRI, the world is leaving you on the side of the road. Have fun playing with yourself.
December 7th, 2005 at 3:33 pmHey, IRI. Is the Air Force constitutional? There is no mention of it in the constitution. Only an army and a navy. Will you originalists get rid of it if we let you have your way? You won’t get your way, I was just curious what your little monkey brain thought of this liberal, judicial activist constitutional “abuse” and conundrum.
December 7th, 2005 at 3:37 pmThanks, Giacomo,
So far our answers agree. I think the world can be made better. This should be an interesting comparison of philosophies.
I am 45, born and raised in New York State (about an hour north of the City, but I hate when they describe us as “upstate”; to me, “upstate” refers to points further north than us, like Albany and northward). I’ve lived here all my life except for the 5+ years that I was in the Air Force (Andrews AFB, Shemya AFB, and Ramstein AFB in Germany, where they had that horrible air show accident, but that was after I left).
Personally I am atheist, but I can respect the fact that others believe in God. As I understand it, it may come down to whether you believe that there was a First Cause of everything (that was brought into existence by a higher power) or whether you believe that the universe always has been infinite and always will be long after our galaxy gets sucked into the black hole at its center (it’s really there, but don’t worry, we’ll finish this discussion before then), and that the galaxies, stars and planets within it will come and go. I can respect how one’s faith can provide them a moral compass and a hope for eternal life. And as long as it’s implemented that way and not to demand that others follow the same beliefs, then I can get along with (what I like to think of as) “non-atheists.” My own moral compass starts with the philosophy “Try to treat other people the way you (meaning myself) would like to be treated.” I get a little offended at those who suggest (as I have heard some prominent Republicans say), “You have to have a belief in God to have a moral center.” I do not see why.
I started voting in 1992 when Bill Clinton came along because I felt that the Republicans were not taking care of the things that mattered to me. I have voted at least every other year since and I do not believe that I have ever voted for a Republican. I did vote for Nader in 2000 because I knew that Gore would win NY and I wanted to try to help get a third party enough votes to be put on all ballots nationally without having toget signatures each year. I knew he wouldn’t win, but 5% of the national vote would have helped. Didn’t quite make it. (I did the same thing when “Grandpa Al” Lewis (yes of The Munsters) ran for governor of NY. Didn’t make it there, either. Otherwise I vote for Democrats (and for no one when a Republican runs unopposed) because I view them as the lesser of two evils, but philosophy-wise they are much closer to my own than not. Personally, I believe that we would all be better off if the Congress consisted of more than just the two major parties. I believe that they are the ones perpetuating the myth that you need to have two, and only two, parties. I believe, however idealistically, that better legislation can come out of Washington if more than just two polarized sides are voting. Yes, a “coalition-style” government works best for all the people.
So far, so good.
Question #2:
We both agree that the world can be a better place. Do you believe that:
A) This will happen eventually whether we (as humans) try to do anything or not
or
B) That it can only happen if we all work together to make it happen
And thanks for your kind words about my postings here. I try not to lose my patience with certain people, but I made a New year’s resolution to try not to be harsh about those I disagree with. I started a month early to “work out the kinks.”
According to the website http://www.politicalcompass.org I lean toward Liberal/Libertarian. I recommend everyone check their own compasses.
December 7th, 2005 at 3:42 pmWe can improve our lot and those of our neighbors, we can sacrifice and play some small part in alleviating suffering. we can build a great nation but a Fundamentalist Christian worldview does not allow for a better and better world to come. Just the opposite in fact.
IRI … I have no desire to debate progressives who are more liberal then me AND republicans who are more conservative … with that said … you consistently post here and often just incite hatred … not exactly a marker of a Christian (and don’t say Jesus incited the same hatred, the ones who hated him were, mostly, the piously religious). I bristle at the mention of fundamentalist (those who consistently make women’s issues and homosexuality the pinnacle of their concerns) … while I perfectly understand scripture about the “end days” … the Apostle Paul thought he was living in said end days … how many societies have come and gone since then … to say that there is no way or room for improvement here and now is lazy and against what Christ stood for (abundant life in the here and now, not just later).
Oh Jeebus. You are a mess. And you think religion and conservatism will make the world better?
KillCon, I have no answer for that level of dialogue (more monologue I guess). Please don’t try and read into what I’m saying until I actually say it … I just can’t imagine what could’ve happened in your past for you to spew venom to someone over the internet … I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, but you’ve yet to say anything of consequence (outside of rambling opinions on my own personal merits).
December 7th, 2005 at 3:55 pmI just can’t imagine what could’ve happened in your past for you to spew venom to someone over the internet
Fed up with people like you who actually voted for that moron in the WH and the last 60 years of bullshit, since the end of WWII and even before, that people like you have consistently warped the lens through which Americans perceive their political environment. You are the greatest threat to this country and the world and it’s peace and justice. The fact that you consider yourself a “progressive” is laughable but illustrates my point sufficiently. You have just admitted to subscribing to base superstitions (nonsensical “revealed religions”) and you have the nerve to accuse me of rambling about things of little consequence! You are funny, I’ll give you that, if not a little obtuse, and you do provide an occasional moment of unintentional irony. I’m not even an atheist, but I find you “quaint” like your chimp in the WH finds the Geneva convention. You are also terribly confused, hence my calling you a mess, but that should be obvious to any enlightened person here.
December 7th, 2005 at 4:16 pmQuestion #2
B … but not ALL have to work together to make it happen … certainly a majority. Having a laissez faire attitude would leave the world worse off.
I scored Economic Right 1.13 and Social Authoritarian .05 – basically I’m in the middle of everything … curious.
You’re right … I’m from what’s more to be considered upstate New York (Saratoga).
I guess one can be moral and not believe in a God (moral as it relates to behaviors) but I think morality extends further than that (as it pertains to Christianity). Otherwise, people’s personal decisions about what’s moral for them is law and then there really isn’t any morality. Having a source for the morality is important. Saying that, Christianity is far more than personal decisions about behavior but unfortunately, that’s all that seems to be in play on the news (Christians are largely to blame for this). Christians get a bad rep for trying to force religion on others … this is absurd since no one can be “forced” to convert in at least a spiritual sense. I believe the call is to live a life that exemplifies what Christ lived … when people notice, then share … it’s truly their choice. If some get over zealous it’s because they have hellfire and brimstone preachers and they repeat this to others … some of them out of genuine concern for others eternal destiny but for many it’s out of a sense of superiority. I’m quite sure that Jesus & God are far more angry with his followers (or those that claim to be) than those who have chosen, to this point, not to.
I have much disdain for the two party system as well … it would be far easier to vote for quality candidates that could run on their conscience. Financially, this is next to impossible.
December 7th, 2005 at 4:19 pmI don’t wonder why certain people tried to hide the existence of The Jefferson Bible from the people of this country for almost 200 years. I guess they thought the people were too stupid to understand it. I think they may have been right. Then all those stupid people got elected to Congress, with the help of people like you. And here we are. Half step forward, three steps back.
Jefferson’s word for the Bible (before he took a razor to it):
“Dunghill.”
Jefferson on the Bible and Christianity:
I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.
SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS,
by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short
Christianity…(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. …Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.
The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves…these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
John Adams:
Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?
The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.
Thomas Paine:
I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible).
Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to ‘God’ to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator’s name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible).
It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.
Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins…and you will have sins in abundance.
The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty.
James Madison:
What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.
“Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote:
Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.
These founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.
Among those who confuse Christianity with the founding of America, the rise of conservative Baptists is one of the more interesting developments. The Baptists believed God’s authority came from the people, not the priesthood, and they had been persecuted for this belief. It was they—the Baptists—who were instrumental in securing the separation of church and state. They knew you can not have a “one-way wall” that lets religion into government but that does not let it out. They knew no religion is capable of handling political power without becoming corrupted by it. And, perhaps, they knew it was Christ himself who first proposed the separation of church and state: Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s and unto the Lord that which is the Lord’s.”
Like I said, I find you quaint and I’m not even an atheist.
December 7th, 2005 at 4:29 pmThe fact that you consider yourself a “progressive†is laughable but illustrates my point sufficiently.
I don’t consider myself a “progressive” … apologies if that was inferred.
You have just admitted to subscribing to base superstitions (nonsensical “revealed religionsâ€) and you have the nerve to accuse me of rambling about things of little consequence!
Because you usually just post nonsense … at least you made a point I can respond to this time. You are entitled to believe that Christianity is a superstition … those that think so have not investigated it’s claims all too closely (I find many people that say what you say were raised in homes where parents were hyper-religious and they throw off the “chains” of oppressive religion when they leave home) or have seen examples of poor Christians. Do you believe all religions to be superstition?
I’m not even an atheist
Then what are you? Christianity is a superstition, but there is a God … what’s that about. Leaving the option open that God exists “just in case”? Sounds like a hodge podge of open-mindedness that amounts to little. Maybe you’re an agnostic. Anyhow, if you believe in God, maybe you should consider the possibility that he actually gives a rip … that’s a start.
December 7th, 2005 at 4:31 pmWhat’s your point … I can find other quotes by founding fathers that show a deep respect for Christianity and evidence of their faith.
It’s not like Thomas Jefferson is the father of Christianity? You’re confusing me with another Christian … the one’s who attempt to validate their faith by saying “these important people were Christians” … I neither need nor desire their “agreement” or validation. My faith is based upon personal experience and personal study … people might believe something because Ben Franklin said it first … but it’s irrelevant to decsions about faith.
Those quotes also reflect a strong opinion of mine … people can act in abhorrent ways when they can reconcile their atrocities by saying their religion compells them to act in such ways. Again, this does not diminish Christianity as true in the least (but does diminish others opinions of Christians). I’ll say it again, I believe Jesus to be greatly disappointed with much (not all) of his church …
You don’t find me quaint … you find what you think I am quaint (which I find quaint).
December 7th, 2005 at 4:41 pm“As far as I’m conserned, if anyone deserves a pass it’s Ryan and if you don’t agree you just don’t know or are a troll yourself.”
killcon, you are a muppet. no-one deserves a pass, and you are not the one to be handing them out.
i think you’ll find that you are the troll, not myself. there was nothing troll-like in my comment, just a reminder that posting some thoughtful posts does not build up credit to be spent name-calling. you are either a grown-up or you’re not. quite patently, killcon is even LESS grown up than ryan.
people such as myself keep appealing to reason. people like you keep acting like children. may as well rebrand TP as “where the Nazis debate the infants” and have done with it.
December 7th, 2005 at 4:44 pmRE: WORFEUS — December 7, 2005 @ 11:28 am
Well, I’m glad to see somebody willing to take the fight against injustice all the way to the nearest comment thread to an aging post on blog procedural matters!
That’ll learn ‘em!
RE: I-RIGHT-I — December 7, 2005 @ 2:41 pm
Comments on “perspective” from one whose handle could be read* as a proud declaration of monocular vision?
* by one inclined toward punning
December 7th, 2005 at 4:56 pmGiacomo,
So far we agree (with the answers to the questions). I admit right now that I am making this up as I go along, so I will further elaborate about myself (for understanding purposes, not for “advertising”) so that we can both see where we’re coming from.
I attended SUNY New Paltz for a few years but I didn’t graduate. I discovered there that I’m an alcoholic and a drug addict, so skipping classes became easier and easier for me through the years. (I haven’t had a drink in about 17 years and let’s not talk about the drugs. At least I did manage to “put down the bong and go vote” last month because there were referendums on the ballot.) I majored in and studied mathematics when I did go to classes and still managed to further my understanding of the subject despite not attending many classes. (It’s one of the reasons I have no problem with the concept of “infinity.”)
I finished my “higher” education (pun intended and not) with enough credits to enlist in the Air Force in 1983 as an E-3. (If you’re not familiar with military ranks, it means that I got out of basic training with two stripes on my sleeve. It’s not the same as a corporal in the Army, because the rank structure is slightly different among the branches. But it did mean that I got the two stripes a year ahead of my fellow graduates from basic training.) Because of the head start, I eventually got to test for promotion to E-5 (Staff Sgt) after only three years and I made it the first time I tested, so I sewed on my fourth stripe after 3-1/2 years, just before my original enlistement would have ended. (Unlike the Army, the Air Force did not require one to go before a promotion board which might contain and NCO that doesn’t like you. We just had to take tests based on our specialty. The Air Force felt our way was more fair.) I extended my original four-year enlistment in order to accept my last assignment to Germany. In early 1988 they had a “rollback of forces” (what the civilians – or “silly villains” as we like to call them – would call “layoffs.”) and it was re-enlist or get out early, so I got out two months early. Besides, by then I had met Jane and decided my life would be better with her.
I think I scored (I’m trying to remember) something like -8/-8 range (Liberal/Libertarian) range. I know I ended up more Liberal than Ghandi or Nelson Mandela, which kind of surprised me. I can take it again to get a score when I get the chance.
I do agree that, lacking any fear of what may happen to me after I’m dead, I tend to lead a more hedonistic life than most people, but since I try to be nice to people and not to bother people who don’t want to be bothered (kind of a “live and let live” approach) I see no reason why anyone should object to my lifestyle. On the other hand, I also recognize that I can’t just sit on my ass getting stoned (I do run out occasionally :) ), so I have decided to start educating myself about the political scene. I haven’t yet decided which direction I want to go, but I’m sure my past drug use alone would disqualify in some voters eyes for public office. Maybe I can one day run on the Marijuana Reform Party line, since I do object to our state’s “Rockefeller Laws.” I prefer rehabilitation to punishment and I oppose any use of capital punishment, in any case. I personally believe that prisoners fear spending a lifetime in jail more than dying, and would prefer to end their life if possible. For some, this would be getting off easy.
(I’m still trying to come up with Question 3, but it hasn’t come to mind yet. But thank you for answering. I’m finding this interesting on a level I haven’t yet achieved with some of the people I am choosing to ignore. You can choose to do that, too. I think it more likely that you’ll stick around of you do than if you let yourself be bothered by them. You’re doing alright, I must say, so the choice is yours. I think I just thought of another Q.)
Question #3:
Do you believe that a person shopuld have a right to determine for him or herself what they want to do with their own body (besides strapping a bomb to it and blowing up innocent people, which I am already sure you wouldn’t support)?
A) Yes
B) No
This covers many things besides: Tattoos, Abortion, Suicide (not like terrorists), elective surgeries including vasectomies, drug use, drinking alcohol and anything else along these type lines.)
P.S. I am finding this informative. I hope you are, too.
December 7th, 2005 at 5:10 pmYou don’t find me quaint … you find what you think I am quaint (which I find quaint).
Comment by Giacomo — December 7, 2005 @ 4:41 pm
I find you quaint.
people such as myself keep appealing to reason. people like you keep acting like children. may as well rebrand TP as “where the Nazis debate the infants†and have done with it.
Comment by jason kennedy — December 7, 2005 @ 4:44 pm
I find “people such as [your]self” hilarious. When the right makes fun of people on the left wanting to “give terrorists a hug” it’s “people such as [your]self” they are talking about. I’d call you a “concern troll”. The world is not a place that lends itself readily to reason, and when i finnd someone who is willing to be reasonable, I will respond in kind. Go over to Freep and see how reasonable they will be with you. I appease no one. If you don’t like my “rough manner”, tough.
December 7th, 2005 at 9:13 pmIRI … I have no desire to debate progressives who are more liberal then me AND republicans who are more conservative … Comment by Giacomo
Huh? Then why are you here? Do you just have a fascination with fringe loon Left Wingers and the conservatives that love them?
with that said … you consistently post here and often just incite hatred … not exactly a marker of a Christian Comment by Giacomo
I know…it often sounds pretty bad doesn’t it? But I didn’t incite the hatred. If you’re honest and not brain dead you’ll admit the hatred was here long before I showed up. I only present a target for it. Call it a service. But is it Christian? I suppose it is. To hate the good and love the evil is the marker of a Progressive. You have figured that out by now, right? If not I suggest you are in trouble yourself and your “christian walk” is taking you down the wrong path.
(and don’t say Jesus incited the same hatred, the ones who hated him were, mostly, the piously religious).Comment by Giacomo
Yes, I suppose you’re right though if you do a little research you’ll find that the powers that were in those days included the piously political (the Sadducees and Herodians) and if you think the Pharisees weren’t opposed to Christ on political grounds as well then you haven’t considered the fact that the chief priest was appointed by Herod via the Romans. Our Lord had his hands full. In fact the way He destroyed their every argument and plot is further proof if His deity.
Speaking of piously religious, the secular humanists fundy-atheists on this board are as religious and bigoted as they come. Not only that but they hail from a philosophy that murdered or caused the death of 60 million people in just the last one hundred years. Don’t talk to me about hatred until you grow up.
I bristle at the mention of fundamentalist (those who consistently make women’s issues and homosexuality the pinnacle of their concerns) … Comment by Giacomo
Oh? You bristle, do you? Isn’t that special? I suppose you don’t have a problem with the so-called “homosexual agenda” or the radical feminists? If not then again I suggest you examine yourself and don’t worry too much about what I’m up to. I say that because if you don’t think those are important issues for Christians to tackle you are either a woefully ignorant baby Christian or you are one of those pretenders. I do notice that you’re trying pretty hard to ingratiate yourself with the Walking Dead around here. My first guess is that you are a pretend christian.
while I perfectly understand scripture about the “end days†… the Apostle Paul thought he was living in said end days … how many societies have come and gone since then …Comment by Giacomo
Yes and no. He understood that after the Cross we were in the End Days but he certainly did not say that it would happen in his day. He didn’t know and neither do we. You didn’t learn much in church did you? I can recommend some good study programs if you’re interested…(fat chance, right?)
to say that there is no way or room for improvement here and now is lazy and against what Christ stood for (abundant life in the here and now, not just later).Comment by Giacomo
Abundant life for everyone!!!! I bet you like those “name it and claim it” preachers on Trinity Broadcasting don’t you? I didn’t say there wasn’t room for improvement. What I said was there will be no discernable improvement in the overall condition of man. We are fallen and it only gets worse. If you don’t believe me just read the history books and tell me where you see evolution or any of the human “isms” improving the quality of life and the nature of mankind around the globe.
Poor boy, get away from here as fast as you can, take care of your family the best you can and get on your knees and pray for help. With your attitude toward things holy and political bent you are going to need it.
December 8th, 2005 at 10:38 amRE: I-RIGHT-I — December 7, 2005 @ 2:41 pm
Comments on “perspective†from one whose handle could be read* as a proud declaration of monocular vision?
* by one inclined toward punning
Comment by just john
Let me clear that up for you. It has to do with marksmanship. I do shoot with one eye closed though.
December 8th, 2005 at 10:42 amWayne
With regard to question 3, we will likely differ in our opinions …
Question #3:
Do you believe that a person should have a right to determine for him or herself what they want to do with their own body (besides strapping a bomb to it and blowing up innocent people, which I am already sure you wouldn’t support)?
I can’t give a hard answer really because given the situations you listed it would be Yes for some and No for others.
If people want to get tatoos, elective surgeries, alcohol (as long as they’re responsible) that is fine by me. Suicide shouldn’t be illegal in the sense that if one tries to commit suicide they should be jailed for it … but it should be “law” that if one tries to commit suicide they should be mandated to undergo some sort of therapy … if suicide is a cry for help, then we should give that help (even if the person in this case doesn’t “want it” – if that’s the case then why “attempt”? – those that really want to die usually do it well … those that want help aren’t as self-lethal).
I don’t agree with Euthanasia because I believe in the sancity of life (terrorists too), but if a person is in unbearable pain, it should be their decision. The problem is the almost always need help, and then it’s not just about them anymore. Many people say they wouldn’t want their loved ones to suffer (as I say), but I’ve also thought about the terrible lief long burden I would place on my wife if I were terminal and I asked her to kill me … it’s not fair of me to ask that. The slippery slope is if others start deciding for the person (which is why the Terri Schiavo thing struck such a nerve … my opinion on that is if the parents wanted to care for her, the husband should have let them, but it was his decision to make – the government interference was stupid).
Drugs is a hazier line for me b/c of the detriment and drain they’ve proven to be on society … while I know marijuana may be safer than cigarettes and drinking alcohol, I don’t like the precedent that it sets (if we legalized it). That said, it should be used medicinally if it can alieveate pain (heck, chemotherapy is much worse on the body than pot … no one has a problem with chemo’s adverse effects because they believe it to be medicinal in nature). I don’t, in general, believe that mood altering products (all of them) are inherently bad in themselves … but I have a big problem with our society hopping from one form of escapism to another … and I think that’s the root of the problem. If one says marijuana is bad … and then spends all their time smoking and drinking, what’s the difference? The facts are that we get caught up in “the method” that, mostly, all employ to “escape” (or find comfort) but don’t really address the real issue … mood altering doesn’t change any circumstance but the mood, so when a person comes “back down” whatever they were escaping hasn’t changed (I realize that some use mood alterring substances because it’s fun … I’m more talking about the abuse of those substances … if it AT ALL effects ones family, job, etc then it’s to the point of abuse … I don’t think many people are very honest about how much these substances do “effect” them). Harder drugs like PCP, meth, etc. should always be and remain illegal … they are far too dangerous to the individual (and are a source of much of the inner city and suburb violence) and I think that the government, to a certain extent, is allowed to protect us from ourselves (ie. speed limits, seatbelt and helmet laws).
As I’m sure you already had guessed, I am pro-life or anti-abortion … some people say that there should be a clause that abortion is OK in rape and incest … this is a super hard dilemma for me because on one hand I want to be consistent (if it’s a life, then it’s a life), but on the other hand, I do not want to further victimize the victim. I am deeply saddened that anyone ever even had the idea to abort their child because, if not, society would’ve been forced to adopt other alternatives to solve the subsequent problems.
Here are some facets of abortion that I don’t think are always considered … 1) far too often, and in the majority of cases, abortion is used as birth control (and not in the rape, incest, and life of the mother categories) … these birth control cases comprise 90% of abortions. 2) while women should have control over their bodies, that idea is a misnomer when there is another “body” dependent on you to survive … it’s not just about the woman … it may be more comfortable to say “it’s my body” but we’re not talking about a gall stone or a tumor and it shouldn’t be conveniently reduced to that level 3) Having adopted and biological children (my youngest was born 4 months ago) I vividly remember the first ultrasound (we did ours at about 8 weeks) … already a head and tiny “buds” for arms and legs had formed … it literally pains me to think about someone taking a vacuum (with spinning razors in it) and sucking out a tiny (yet recognizable in basic terms) fetus. 4) since I have adopted, I know that it costs $34,000 to do a foreign adoption … to do a US adoption is much more risky as the biological parents can change their minds at any time over the first year (and would likely win back custody). There are thousands of families going abroad to adopt … they would (I know because I would) adopt here if there were enough options. 5) I have met several women who were deeply scarred (emotionally) at the thought that they could’ve had a son or a daughter “right now”, but they chose to abort … they had some valid reasons at the time (financial, age), but they still felt very guilty (please not, I did not meet these people at church, but at work … they aren’t Christians (aka that’s not the source of the guilt in question). 6) We say “fetus” when referring to a baby in utero, but that’s any arbitrary term we’ve given to a baby at a certain time of development … it doesn’t change the nature of the baby, but it’s used to avoid the word baby. 7) The entire debate about “back-yard” abortions are greatly over-stated … and there are ways to avoid becoming pregnant … once one is pregnant, one should take responsibility. Heck, I’ll adopt the baby if they don’t want it. 8) When you actually meet your biological child for the first time, it is an amazing and gratifying experience (you know this if you have kids) … to tear a tiny piece of you out of your body isn’t as “routine” as some would seem to make it (emotionally or physically). I’m rambling now … my position is not out of callousness for the plight of women nor is it judgmental … I think, as a society, to give our all to save the seals and then shout “it’s not a baby” or it’s “my body” when speaking about abortion is a huge disconnect. Those that are pro-choice should, at the very least, admit that abortion should be 1) a last resort 2) not a routine procedure 3) extinguishes a baby (or what will, within 2 weeks, be easily recognizable as a baby) 4) isn’t a replacement for sexual responsibility … if that were to happen, and they wanted to be pro-choice (because the women in their opinion should come first) then I could differ politely. It is frustrating to argue the semantics (ie. it’s safe, it’s not a baby) … these seem, to me, to be stated to make the individual stating them more comfortable with their opinion …
My entire stance on the death penalty (against it) hinges on the fact that I’m pro-life … it’s cognitively dissonant to be pro-life and pro-death.
December 8th, 2005 at 11:18 amMy entire stance on the death penalty (against it) hinges on the fact that I’m pro-life … it’s cognitively dissonant to be pro-life and pro-death.
Comment by Giacomo
So, God is cognitively dissonant? You are in a heap of trouble boy. You’re in a hole and digging.
December 8th, 2005 at 11:22 amSomething just gave me an idea that would help improve Think Communist. Go out and get yourself some additional Conservatives…why? Because we are smarter!!!! Ho Ho Ho!
Because of their minority status it is far more difficult for conservative students to entertain the illusion that all smart people think like them. They are exposed to many obviously bright young men and women whose opinions on almost every issue vary radically from their own. . . .
Being forced to recognize that there are different points of view helps make bright young conservatives such good debaters. They learn early on the limited persuasiveness of shouting at someone with whom they disagree, “You’re an idiot.” Of necessity they have to develop the ability to cast their arguments in ways that appeal to those starting from very different premises. . . .
Liberals can be wonderful people, and boon companions, but they often have a hard time dealing with people of opposing views–especially when they cannot dismiss them out of hand as idiots. Too often they have spent their entire adult lives surrounded almost entirely by those who think just like them, and it comes naturally to dismiss those of other views as intellectually or morally challenged.
December 8th, 2005 at 11:41 amhttp://jewishmediaresources.com/article/906/
IRI
You can question my faith all you want … I don’t agree with your tactics (even if they may be well intentioned). Christ hung out with the everyday people (the Pharisess called them the sinners) and I’m sure the term filthy left (or filthy tax-collector) was one he would’ve avoided.
The fruits of the spirit are … (I know you know the song) … love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. These are the markers of Christians … especially in the face of those who hate you or lash out at you. Maybe you aren’t the cause of the hatred … maybe you are the target … with that said, people know you’re a Christian, and when you arrive they assume you will say something ignorant or attacking … this may be ridiculous, but if Christ himself posted to Think Progress would he adhere to your approach? I’m sure he would call a spade a spade, but he’d do it in a way that people could understand … and he wouldn’t draw attention to himself by labelling and accusing viciously.
You call me a baby Christian … you show me a certain level of intelligence on Christian (and Biblical) history … and then you act in a manner that discredits your faith … are you trying to reach people or are you trying to be “right” (no pun intended). I’ve found that those Christians who are the most legalistic and the most judgmental are the least mature Christians (and don’t confuse this for me saying that all is ok, and that there are no standards, that’s the exact opposite of what I’m saying).
While I am politically conservative, there are Christians who are politically liberal as well … these are honest and well thought Christians, not “filthy leftists”.
What’s most telling about your reply is that you’ve branded me as well … statements like “you don’t have a problem with the so-called “homosexual agenda†or the radical feminists” reduce Christianity to a code of rules and doctrines. You say “you didn’t learn much in church did you? I can recommend some good study programs if you’re interested” … tell me this … if you’re acting insulting to a fellow Christian (and assuming the depth of his faith(interestingly enough, you’ve assumed that it’s of a lesser variety than yours)) on what basis do you consider yourself a judge of anyting (character, faith, etc.). You’ve begun to alienate me (someone who shares your faith) … how much more must you be alienating those here that don’t share your beliefs. You are judge and jury and you use your faith as validation … sounds more like a crusade than the “commission”.
Ask yourself, who the heck would want to be a Christian if the only Christian they’ve seen is you … you are encapsulating the rigid and uncaring “myth” of Christians for them … why. I don’t wish to be harsh, but you are a discredit to your faith (here at Think Progress) … You don’t sound like one who has experienced grace.
You say “Get on your knees and pray for help. With your attitude toward things holy and political bent you are going to need it”. Please don’t equate holy and political leanings … the case for capitalism and conservativism is fraught with self-interest (among other problems). I lean conservative because that’s where my faith has led me … your own statement about the depraved nature of man should lead you to the conclusion that both parties have plenty of “filth” to go around.
December 8th, 2005 at 11:50 amSo, God is cognitively dissonant? You are in a heap of trouble boy. You’re in a hole and digging.
“Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. The Torah demands an eye for an eye … Jesus came to fulfill the law … “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbour as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
I’m all for lifetime incarceration. I don’t wish to see anyone killed (even for heinous crimes) as this limits their chances for redemption. Justice is served (their in jail forever (which may be worse than dead), the public is safe (their in jail forever) and, should one so choose, they have a chance to receive Christ (ala the thief on the cross).
What I love about all this is I have Ryan calling me a Nazi and you telling me I’m “in a hole” … perfect. How is it I’ve raised the ire of all? Your interpretation of scripture is not the only one … you’re being as rigid as you claim the leftists are.
December 8th, 2005 at 12:00 pmWayne
As you can see, conservatives disagree too … the truth is, there’s no such thing as a pure liberal or pure conservative. There are just leanings one way or another with individuals falling all along the spectrum. That’s precisely my problem with the name calling like “Nazi” or “Filthy Left” … those may encapsulate what the name caller thinks of an idealogy, but they rarely accurately depict individuals.
IRI seems to disagree doctrinally with me (on at least some things) … not surprising. I’ve found Christians fall along the entire spectrum as well.
December 8th, 2005 at 12:18 pmyou’re being as rigid as you claim the leftists are.
Comment by Giacomo
I’m not all that rigid. I’d go with 20 years in prison for most of them, a rope for the leaders.
Capital punishment wasn’t something given to Moses. It was given to Noah. Capital punishment isn’t revenge either, it is justice. Capital punishment protects life by removing it from those who don’t hold it sacred. The death penalty is a good thing, let’s keep it, celebrate it and protect it from those who would do away with it just as those who would abuse it. Lady Justice doesn’t hold the sword or the scales in vain does she?
December 8th, 2005 at 12:38 pmJust try and cool down a tad, that’s all … I don’t see CP as revenge either, it is a form of justice … I’ll go so far as to say that in many cases it is exactly what the criminal “deserves” … thank God we all don’t get what we deserve though.
I can’t disagree with how you arrived at your opinion … I’d prefer not to celebrate it and I do feel that society as a whole is served by lifetime incarceration.
December 8th, 2005 at 12:49 pmI do feel that society as a whole is served by lifetime incarceration.
Comment by Giacomo
I don’t think that life behind bars sends the right message to the little killers among us. They should know…as I knew..that to take a life for fun or profit means to sacrifice your own.
Prison doesn’t mean anything to the mindless bangers or career criminal. In addition it isn’t fair to the people who made a mistake and are paying for it to spend that time among animals with nothing to look forward to but a grave and no expectation of a more severe penalty for their actions. Some people need to be dead.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:58 pmWell … I respectfully disagree. They may deserve it, but society isn’t any less served by having them off the streets and alive. There’s been much research about the validity of the death penalty as it pertains to the deterence of crime … I’ve seen research to support both opinions. I wouldn’t be willing to pull the switch and prefer to focus on the possibilities for redemption.
I don’t fault you for your stance though … you could make your case both Biblically and socially.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:01 pmdon’t fault you for your stance though … you could make your case both Biblically and socially.
Comment by Giacomo
I think it should be kept on the books as an option and used in the most agregious cases. I have one more argument for it; the Zeropeans are against it.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:24 pmI just saw this…I have a stock answer for it too….
“Ask yourself, who the heck would want to be a Christian if the only Christian they’ve seen is you … you are encapsulating the rigid and uncaring “myth†of Christians for them … why. I don’t wish to be harsh, but you are a discredit to your faith (here at Think Progress) … You don’t sound like one who has experienced grace.”
Here it is:
I know I’m not a good Christian..never claimed otherwise. The fact is, there are NO good Christians, not as Christ defined good anyway. There are some better than others. I’m not too concerned where I fall in that 1-10 scale.
I’m not here to convert the heathen and neither am I here to increase the popularity of Christians. In this snake pit of communists, anarchists, brain dead, baby killing, homo loving, Christian hating Liberals what would be the point? Christ already told us not to throw our pearls before swine.
I’m just here from time to time to have a little fun and exercise the Clue Boot of Doom on some red diaper wearing asses. It’s not easy either. Dialog with irrational, self centered, whining, brainwashed children never is. But, it’s something to do. Besides, they love it. Think of me as Super Nanny with a bad attitude.
December 8th, 2005 at 3:40 pmIt’s dissapointing that you’re choosing a course that only adds to the vitriol … it’s ultimately between you and God, I guess.
December 8th, 2005 at 3:44 pmI’m not here to convert the heathen and neither am I here to increase the popularity of Christians. In this snake pit of communists, anarchists, brain dead, baby killing, homo loving, Christian hating Liberals what would be the point? Christ already told us not to throw our pearls before swine.
I’m just here from time to time to have a little fun and exercise the Clue Boot of Doom on some red diaper wearing asses. It’s not easy either. Dialog with irrational, self centered, whining, brainwashed children never is. But, it’s something to do. Besides, they love it. Think of me as Super Nanny with a bad attitude.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — December 8, 2005 @
Obviously one of the little latent homos from LGF or Misha’s sandbox for the red, white and blue diaper wearing retards. Life must suck to be them. In a few years the Fed will be burning them down in their compounds again.
I’ll give you this Giacomo, in your own “quaint” little way you are far closer to whatever your quaint superstitions presuppose the supernatural supreme being might be than IRI. He’s not even in the ballpark. He’d be more in the lower ballpark, if you get my meaning, but I am sure of one thing. There is no such critter as the “devil” and “hell” is just inside IRI’s mind and anywhere he is. Even you can see that. I wouldn’t waste my time arguing the time of day with him, nor would I turn the other cheek. I would cast him out and gladly cast the first stone, or torch.
December 8th, 2005 at 6:13 pmRead #250 again. Imagine it in Arabic and substitute Mohammed for Christ and you have the Taliban or bin Laden. Fortunately for the human race, both will die by their own swords. Glad to help.
December 8th, 2005 at 6:32 pmI’ll give you this Giacomo, in your own “quaint†little way you are far closer to whatever your quaint superstitions presuppose the supernatural supreme being might be than IRI.
Comment by KillCon 2006
See there G. You have KillCon’s seal of approval/kiss of death. Faint praise is still praise from the Walking Dead. I wonder where he gets his ideas about what a “Christian” really is? It’s certain he didn’t get it from the Man. It has always astounded me how the ONLY people who NEVER FAIL to assume the role of Theologian are the atheist.com crowd.
I know it’s not right but when it comes to these Left Wing Walking Dead Losers I can’t help but feel like Jonah. I really do want to sit under my vine and see Nineveh burn to the ground.
December 9th, 2005 at 9:58 amKillCon is a tad too rabid for me … I’m glad he, at least, thinks that I approximate what I preach … If we met many of these people in person (Ryan, KillCon, etc.) I don’t think they’d be quite as unreasonable as they appear here … it’s easy to blast someone over the internet.
KillCon … there are many theories on Satan/Lucifer … I’m not of the opinion that he has a pointy tail and is directly responsible for all the ill in the world … some have theorized that he’s not even “out” of heaven like many think (some say, as his Old Testament name implies “the accuser”, that he, like all other archangels, is fulfilling his role in heaven … Gabriel the messenger, Michael the warrior, Lucifer the accuser … this is a bit of a stretch though given passages in Ezekiel) but that the early Jews/Christians, in wishing to have a bi-pole/good vs. evil understanding of the world, misinterpreted the story of Lucifer. Anyhow, I’m quite certain of the presence of sin and there being a Satan or not changes that fact none.
December 9th, 2005 at 10:29 amKillCon is a tad too rabid for me … I’m glad he, at least, thinks that I approximate what I preach … If we met many of these people in person (Ryan, KillCon, etc.) I don’t think they’d be quite as unreasonable as they appear here … it’s easy to blast someone over the internet.
Comment by Giacomo
My guess is they’d be very reasonable if one was to meet them in person. Jr. high school kids get that way around an adult that will smack them one.
December 9th, 2005 at 12:31 pmjennifer lopez
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