ABC confirms secret prisons.
By on Dec 6th, 2005 at 7:34 am
ABC confirms secret prisons.
“Two CIA secret prisons were operating in Eastern Europe until last month when they were shut down following Human Rights Watch reports of their existence in Poland and Romania. Current and former CIA officers speaking to ABC News on the condition of confidentiality say the United States scrambled to get all the suspects off European soil before Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrived there today.”
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so if, as the article says, the sources are “current and former CIA officers,” one would tend to believe them… ~shakes head, rolls eyes~ u.s. credibility in the world community just dropped another 15 points…
And, yes, I DO take it personally
December 6th, 2005 at 7:39 am“Trust me. I know what’s best.”
-Condi
December 6th, 2005 at 7:40 amIs this a continuation of an ongoing war between the CIA and the White House? Hmmm…..
December 6th, 2005 at 7:42 amApart from the profits for his oil friends, what good has George Bush done in the world?
December 6th, 2005 at 7:59 amBen,
Our impressionable President is told everyday that he is doing long-term good. It’s a grand experiment. In the meantime the War has spawned a new creation: Hardcore Female Suicide Bombers.
The “coalition” has just had to DOUBLE the number of suspected and potential terrorists! I’ll bet torturing them will be fun!
December 6th, 2005 at 8:21 amIts the Damndest thing, I feel like I have gone back in Time to the Roman Empire, Half the Leadership is perverted, the other is Militarisitic, and the People, bless their hearts, are stuck in the center, hearing LIE after LIE from Both Sides, have no voice, they think they do, and the perverts, war mongers, and the Power Hungry, are repeating history yet again….and again,
Pol = Many
Tic= Blood suckers
‘Pol-i-Tics’ -Aj
December 6th, 2005 at 8:34 amThE Sickos are everywhere, many cloaked under suit, tie, garments of religion, office, State, and the high level of the Boy Scouts of America.
AND I DONT CARE WHAT PARTY this whack job is From, I didnt look it up…#*(@%^*!*(&^#E%*@!*
Link
December 6th, 2005 at 8:43 amthank God for liberal organizations like Human Rights Watch! too bad these prisoners are simply being moved over to the Middle East somewhere…
December 6th, 2005 at 8:44 amWhat should we be doing with the world’s most dangerous people? Why don’t you liberals invite them to Sunday dinner?
December 6th, 2005 at 8:48 amhey, LHA, maybe you’ve had your head in the sand recently… we ARE about the world’s most dangerous people right now… torture, chemical weapons – that’s US, baby!
not only that, we’ve turned the clock back to the Soviet days for several Eastern European countries… is that what we fought the USSR for so many years for, to copy their methods? shame on us…
December 6th, 2005 at 8:52 amSee, that is the problem with the left in this country. You guys view us as the enemy. You think that our superpower status is undeserved. That we deserve to lose in Iraq and are trying everything within your power to stop us. Well Pete, I got news for you, this aint no Vietnam and we will not lose this war! Go move to Canada, France or whereever if you don’t like your freedom here.
December 6th, 2005 at 8:59 am#12, you’ve got to be kidding.
December 6th, 2005 at 9:03 amThat is so untrue, it doesn’t deserve a response.
#12
No, the reality is that most of us on the left had bullshit detectors installed in us at some point in our lives and we can see hypocrisy clearly (our own as well as others). We also aren’t so insecure that we must agree in lockstep with our leaders not questioning or criticizing what they do. We are also mature enough and secure enough to admit when we are wrong and make mistakes. We also know there’s not a whole lot that we can do to change other countries (we can encourage but people in those countries have to want to change their circumstances themselves) and so we focus on what we can change–our own country.
December 6th, 2005 at 9:07 amThe few trolls here are arrogant and don’t seem to understand that because of that arrogance, we aren’t seen as being so “super” these days. Everyone is the enemy to them. And what are we “winning” in Iraq anyway?
December 6th, 2005 at 9:07 amWell said, Amy.
December 6th, 2005 at 9:09 amUmmm, perhaps if we weren’t taking other peoples freedoms away, torturing people, running secret gulags around the world, and all because Bush wanted to play soldiers like you did when you were 5… As it is, don’t talk to me about freedoms with the Patriot act, and national identity cards repealing the bill of rights. Given that this administration has shown no restraint in locking people up for extended periods of time as “material witnesses” your freedoms are going down the pan.
Now, why should I see the administration as anything other than the enemy of the Constitution?
And yes, I realise that I am responding to a typical right wing distraction post. Back on topic, I think if you like it so much, they can probably find room to whisk you off to their secret prison camps. Do you want to be “vanished”.
Z.
December 6th, 2005 at 9:10 amUS admits a mistake! too much…
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051206/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/rice
December 6th, 2005 at 9:44 am#12
“IF” we are indeed a super power, why are we hiding the prisons?
“IF” we are a super power, why is IRAQ STILL a dangerous place? Shouldn’t they have bowwed to our superior strength and resolve?
The plausible arguement is that the LEFT hates America, when it is the opposite. We hate secrecy, we hate the denial of rights, we hate reverse robin hood, we hate igrorance and stupidity of those who should have the best interests of the nation at the core of their obligation!
INTEL is spending $1 billion to expand operations in INDIA! I have not heard ONE Republican politician mention that this was a problem…I have heard Kerry, Kennedy, and other DEMS talk about closing the loop holes that allow this to happen…Why isn’t the Right doing so?
Oh I forgot, it is because they are getting bribes and indictments over their friendship from those who pay them to let this happen…You never saw this under CLINTON’s watch. Even “if” he was getting a BJ, I think the price of freedom and properity was worth it!
December 6th, 2005 at 9:44 amThe question remains, if they shut down these european prison, where did they send them??..let’s see is condi due in South Korea anytime soon???
December 6th, 2005 at 9:46 amGREAT QUESTION, Tony! They may still be in transit to some remote destination???
Well, at least Condi (technically) DOES NOT have to lie now, and she can say there are NO PRISONS in that country, leaving the time suspiciously absent…
I hope a reporter has the guts to say, “Was there EVER a prison there?” Her response, “We cannot disclose classified information; however, we do not condone torture and respect international law…”
PATHETIC LIARS!!!
December 6th, 2005 at 9:53 amPlunger…
Whoa, that was deep! No wonder they are not looking at MZM…
From that list, many people would be indicted, fined, and/or jailed for those crimes…
GREAT POST!
December 6th, 2005 at 9:58 amFrom the Financial Times
Excuse me? This appears to be an affirmation that we do, indeed, torture captives. It’s just that we don’t fly them to the torture camps? Perhaps we drive them.
Remember after 9/11, when the entire world was behind us?
December 6th, 2005 at 9:59 amthe news says the prisoners were moved to a North African location… Libya???
December 6th, 2005 at 10:02 amon second thought, Egypt???
December 6th, 2005 at 10:02 amPuffed Rice is lying through the gaps in her front teeth once again.
She is in Germany where she has enlisted the aid of the new Bitch of Buchenwald, Chnacellor Merkel, more reichwing than Rice, in removing evidence of the outsourcing of prisoners to other countries. ABC has proof that they have been moved to Africa.
There is no torture in Africa, right?
December 6th, 2005 at 10:09 amWhat did I tell ya!
“Were I to confirm or deny, say yes or say no, then I would be compromising intelligence information, and I’m not going to do that,” Rice told reporters on her plane to Germany. Before leaving Washington, Rice told reporters that fighting terrorism is “a two-way street” and that Europeans are safer for tough but legal U.S. tactics.
PATHETIC LIAR!
December 6th, 2005 at 10:14 amyou’re safer, but you’ll just have to trust me, because I can’t tell you what it is that’s making you safer!? thanks for that compelling statement, Condi!
December 6th, 2005 at 10:27 amMy guess is there are also many hidden out in our own country as well. They can hide any one away, not allow family contact or attorney contact with their new rules. We can not believe anything our Representatives say, this entire administration only works for the extreme radical right, big oil and big business. Even the Repugs that post here are to small to be on their radar except to use for propaganda. Bottom line they will be steped on like the rest of us. Thing is we know it, they are deluded and don’t. Just like the Nazis. Untill we win our country back this is the way it will be……Blessings
December 6th, 2005 at 10:33 amShe will never be elected to any office at least. Whatever damage she does, will be over in 08. I rest fairly assured on that front. She is weak and spineless.
December 6th, 2005 at 10:45 amLiberals Hate America,
December 6th, 2005 at 10:53 amWe need to let the Brand Spanking New Iraq Shia Democracy deal with them. Oh, wait. The alleged terrorists ARE the Shia. My mistake!
If liberals “hate America,” then the far right Republicans don’t even know what America IS.
I suspect that New McCarthyites see the U.S. as the ultimate force for good in the world and beyond criticism. They see other nations as backward and unenlightened. To them, the ends will always justify the means because the ends – our national interests – are always unimpeachably “good.”
This is laughable to any student of world history. Has there ever been a “good” nation? Nations seek to meet their own needs and interests. Period.
America is not a piece of land, or some people, or a flag. Simply put America IS the means, not the end. The rule of law, the principle that no one, no institution is above the law, and that knowledge of the truth by the citizenry is essential in order for us to make reasoned and informed chcoices, is the most sacred founding principle. There is no America beyond the Law.
Just as the Koran gives Iran its identity, the constitution, state and federal laws, written by the citizens in the form of their elected officials, give us our identity. We give OURSELVES this identity. This was the WHOLE IDEA of America in the first place. Once we become “God’s favorite country” and play by whatever rules we make up as we go along, we are no longer any different from your average incredibly strong, hypocritical bully.
I love my country enough to tell it when it’s done wrong. I won’t enable this dysfunctional father of ours by refusing to question his obviously questionable judgments.
I fail to understand how Right wingers don’t get upset when we torture and kill people with no due process and little if any proof of their guilt. “They’re terrorists and you shouldn’t be defending them,” they say, “you clearly hate America.”
Great intellects they are, eh?
I defend America when its cynical leaders try to destroy its credibility in the world, and try to destroy transparency and the rule of law at home. This is hating America?
December 6th, 2005 at 11:00 am“The United States does not use the airspace or the airports of any country for the purpose of transporting a detainee to a country where he or she will be tortured,†Ms Rice said.
This administration loves to play with definitions, and Rice is simply playing the game. “For the purpose of” is the key to Rice’s comment. Rice merely redefines the purpose as ‘protecting the United States.’ Big Brother would be proud.
And note the not so subtle reminders that foreign governments are
December 6th, 2005 at 11:30 amaccomplicesallies to the US policy?You know I was told off by a right winger in Lydia Cornells blog (www.lydiacornell.com) who claimed Condumb Rice was going to be the Republican candidate in 2008.
I lauged, but boy, I hope it’s true.
If they put up Condumb then they don’t have a prayer of winning again. She supports torture, hell for all we know, she has been in the room while they were doing it.
They might as well pick Slappy White.
He would have about as much of a chance of getting elected as her.
December 6th, 2005 at 11:40 amIt would be the “More of the same” candidate. She only knows how to tow the line and she has a clear record of not addressing dissent in a constructive way.
December 6th, 2005 at 11:44 amThe BBC has been carrying this news for a couple days now. But few in the US seem to pay attention to European media, even when it’s early to report and dead-on the money for what they’re saying.
“US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has defended the use of “rendition” to transport terror suspects between countries, but refused to address claims that the CIA runs secret prisons abroad…”
from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4500630.stm
Gun Toting Liber put it correctly when he wrote “…I love my country enough to tell it when it’s done wrong…“. I feel the very same way.
If the Greedy ‘Ol Paraites who are currently in power were to realize they made a mistake and were to “own up to it”, I think people would be willing to work with them to correct the wrongs that have been made. But the arrogant disregard for discenting(sp?) fact, thoughts, questioning will drive them from office. Many people have had enough of their bulls**t.
December 6th, 2005 at 11:44 amThat was an excellent post gun toting liberal, your post number #34.
It’s amazing that after WW2, and the lessons we learned from the sins of Nazi Germany, that we are even in here having to argue whether or not we should be torturing people!
Of course we shouldn’t.
“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he doesn’t become the monster.”
December 6th, 2005 at 11:48 amNietzsche
#14 — When you are done patting yourself on the back for being so much smarter and clearer thinking than us luddite conservatives, maybe you can turn your highly refined “bullshit detector” on #17.
No wait, allow me: “taking other peoples freedoms away, torturing people, running secret gulags around the world”. 1. what people and what freedoms are you talking about? I see only that we have liberated the Iraqi people — increasing their freedom.
December 6th, 2005 at 11:51 am2. torturing people — putting underwear on someone’s head doesn’t count
3. running secret gulags — your evidence? just because there are secret prisons does not mean they are gulags.
They got dick Cheney on msnbc right now. I had to shut it off, I allmost Puked.
December 6th, 2005 at 11:58 amThey are getting too much News Coverage!
No cynicon,
I mean, I am sure the PHOTOGRAPHS and FILMS that came out, just happened to catch the ONLY instances of abuse going on.
How fortuitous that the ONLY inicidents of abuse just happened to be caught on film.
What luck, ay?
And all those “secret prisons”? Oh I’m sure that they are not doing anything wrong over there. I mean, why would our government, just because it has secret prisons, why would they use them to torture people?
Their probably giving them vocational training or something.
December 6th, 2005 at 12:00 pmcynicon is using the “There was only one indictment and therefore that’s a good thing” logic. Hee!
December 6th, 2005 at 12:03 pmThe arguments of the administration with regards to this so called “torture” are rational and reasonable.
In fact, other great men in history have said similar things regarding this very subject.
Rudolf Hoess – Kommandant of Auschwitz
December 6th, 2005 at 12:06 pmNazi War Crimes Trials, 1946 Nuremberg
#42 — yeah, the last thing we would want is to lock up the bad guys…
Your kind of thinking reminds me of the classic headline in NYT and Boston Globe: “Prisoner rolls increase despite drop in crime”.
December 6th, 2005 at 12:07 pmHow come the trolls here are so tired, worn and pathetic? It’s sad, really.
A jingoistic slogan is not an arguement.
December 6th, 2005 at 12:08 pmYea I just listened to Cheney. Don’t worry, the time for these schmucks honoring themselves, is quickly coming to an end.
And they know it.
December 6th, 2005 at 12:12 pm“The power of the Executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgement of his peers, is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist.”
Winston Churchill
December 6th, 2005 at 12:13 pmNovember 21, 1943
#48 — great quote. Now, if it only was relevant…
December 6th, 2005 at 12:20 pmWhen is the IMPEACHMENT Proceedings Going to Start?
December 6th, 2005 at 12:28 pmAmerica can Wait NO Longer!
None of you arguing for this can say that you know these people are all bad. There is no way for you to know this sitting at your keyboard, preaching.
It’s easy to repeat these blanket statements but impossible for you to produce proof.
Here are your bad guys – http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/
A Canadian passport holding citizen, innocent, kidnapped in New York (on a stopover on his way home) and tortured in Syria (I thought they were the enemy? Except when they are outsourced for torture). You wonder why no one buys this admins’ ever changing bullshit rationale?
Jose Padilla – held without counsel or charge as an enemy combatant – even though he is a U.S. citizen (This means it could happen to you). He was not charged with anything to do with a dirty bomb, because his key witnesses would testify that they were tortured by U.S. proxies.
How you can sit there and defend these actions without a shred of evidence to support your position? I don’t get it. Maybe if you were snatched and “rendered” by your own government without any rights whatsoever, you would understand better.
December 6th, 2005 at 12:29 pmHey Cylicone Implant
The Churhill quote is completely relevent. It is only missing Capitalism after the Nazi or Communist. It means your government (executive branch – this means Bush) acts like Nazis when they kidnap and torture someone without charges, lawyers or due process. If they are guilty, charge them and try them in court, unless you have something to hide from the public…
I thought you conservative types were all about the rule of law.
I’m not surprised, though. Ol’ Prescott and Adolph go way back in business…
December 6th, 2005 at 12:34 pmOops, thats Churchill
December 6th, 2005 at 12:36 pm1. what people and what freedoms are you talking about? I see only that we have liberated the Iraqi people — increasing their freedom.
Comment by cynicon implant — December 6, 2005 @ 11:51 am
“What people”? Well, the people who are being kidnapped and put in secret prisons -the topic of the thread- for starters. They were detained outside the law.
And how many times do we have to say this? The main rationale for the war -what was repeated over and over during the run-up to the invasion- was to make the US safe from a terrorist attack. The “liberation” excuse was given more air time after it was obvious WMDs were not going to be found.
And some liberation this has been: entire cities reduced to rubble, people displaced by the thousands from Tal-Afar, Ramadi, and Fallujah, torture, illegal detentions.
2. torturing people — putting underwear on someone’s head doesn’t count
I see. We have to re-define what torture is so we can safely say “we don’t torture”.
The “harsh interrogation” tactics go beyond underwear over the head. Take a pick:
Photos of Iraqis Being Abused by US Personnel
You also seem to have forgotten the trial of several US servicemen and women for detainee abuse (aka torture):
Abu Ghraib Court Martial: Staff Sgt. Ivan Frederick, USA
And there are reports that Abu Ghraib might not be the only case of torture in Iraq both by Iraqis and American personnel:
Iraqi torture practices could be more widespread
New Accounts of Torture by U.S. Troops
3. running secret gulags — your evidence? just because there are secret prisons does not mean they are gulags.
You are technically right: gulags were forced labour camps, not torture centers.
But at any rate this is a terribly poor excuse, Cynicon. This translates into: “We ain’t as bad as Stalin’s USSR yet, so it’s ok”.
Aren’t you outraged that there are secret prisons? Why are you defending imprisonment outside the law? Do you condone torture as a matter of policy?
December 6th, 2005 at 1:17 pmpick=peek
December 6th, 2005 at 1:18 pmSecret Prisons Confirmed
By ABC
It wasn’t that anyone doubted they were there, just that no one confirmed them until now.
December 6th, 2005 at 1:34 pmThe few trolls here are arrogant and don’t seem to understand that because of that arrogance, we aren’t seen as being so “super†these days. Everyone is the enemy to them. And what are we “winning†in Iraq anyway?
Comment by progressive and proud — December 6, 2005 @ 9:07 am
By whom? France? Germany? What do we care these people think anyway? They hated us before 9/11. They hate us now. What do we gain by forcing the world to “love” us. What are we winning in Iraq? Lets see: how about the first truly democratic nation in the region that will be our ally. The freedom of the Iraqi people from a murderous dictator. A real chance at peace in the middle east without some meaningless document signing in the rose garden first. Human rights. I at least thought that liberal valued human rights. I guess they don’t care about them anymore. Its more important for them to get their power back no matter the cost.
December 6th, 2005 at 1:34 pm“Europeans are safer for tough but legal U.S. tactics.”
IraqVet,
Do you think that the folks in London or Madrid feel safer thanks to the US’ tactics?
December 6th, 2005 at 1:41 pmLHA,
“Lets see: how about the first truly democratic nation in the region that will be our ally.”
What is this democratic nation you speak of? You mean the one that just picked a theocratic Islamist Shia government aligned with Iran? Maybe you are talking about some other country? Vietnam? Nicaragua?
Can’t let facts get in the way of your narrative….
December 6th, 2005 at 1:45 pm“You mean the one that just picked a theocratic Islamist Shia government aligned with Iran?”
whiskeypete,
Do you mean the same Iran that just signed an arms deal for surface to air missiles with Russia? You know those missiles that were designed during the cold war to shoot down US war planes?
December 6th, 2005 at 1:55 pmFrance? Germany? What do we care these people think anyway? They hated us before 9/11.
Comment by Liberals Hate America — December 6, 2005 @ 1:34 pm
Evidence please.
What are we winning in Iraq? Lets see: how about the first truly democratic nation in the region that will be our ally.
A democracy does not automatically translate into an alliance. You just mentioned two democracies -France and Germany- who, in your opinion, “hate us”.
Democracy begins with the rule of law, not propaganda, torture, and illegal detentions. It also needs an effective sovereignty, not foreign troops overrunning the country. Democracy cannot be exported at gun point.
Human rights. I at least thought that liberal valued human rights.
We do -we do not condone and/or advocate torture, kidnappings, and illegal detentions. They constitute grave violations of human rights.
How about you tell us your opinion on the topic of the thread? Do you think secret prisons are ok? Do you think torture, err, “harsh interrogation techniques” are ok too?
December 6th, 2005 at 1:58 pm“A democracy does not automatically translate into an alliance.”
Rigth again Gregor.
One of the biggest thorns in Bush’s side right now is Hugo Chavez, a democratically elected president from Venezuela.
December 6th, 2005 at 2:04 pm#59, The London bombers did what they did because they were radicalized by the US/UK invasion and what they saw being done to Iraqi’s in their name. That’s why they bombed their own people… No Iraq invasion, no UK suicide bombers. QED.
Bush has created many more terrorists around the world because the US no longer is seen as a law-abiding nation that protects human rights or dispenses even-handed, honest policy in its dealings with the world.
December 6th, 2005 at 2:06 pm#57, your grasp of history and the world is flawed. Remember the Paris newspaper on Sep 12th: “We are all Americans now”. After Sep 11th, the world offered to come to the US in ways like never before. But starting with the rejection of nearly all miltiary assistance in Afghanistan, Bush rejected cooperation and following the dishonest and disasterous Iraq invasion, the opinion of others around the world of the US has plummeted and now that you have validated Bush by putting him back in office, the US people not just the government are seen as part of the problem.
December 6th, 2005 at 2:09 pm#64
Yes.
I was being snarky.
December 6th, 2005 at 2:09 pm“By whom? France? Germany? What do we care these people think anyway?”
Well, let’s see. If it wasn’t for France coming to rescue us during the revolution, this would be the United States of Britain.
And Germany, they make those Mercedes that rich republicans seem to like so much.
December 6th, 2005 at 2:11 pmSo I looked up what I could find on the US intelligence budget:
http://www.usatoday.com/ news/ washington/ 2005-11-08-pentagon-spending_x.htm?csp=34
Now when you consider this sum is being dispensed to John ‘Contras, never heard of them’ Negroponte, and is larger than the all but the top 56 world economies (Libya for example has less GDP than Negroponte’s budget). That’s a lot of Lear Jet flights… what else are they doing, do you know do you care?
December 6th, 2005 at 2:25 pm#66, just adding to your point.
December 6th, 2005 at 2:26 pmSILICON IMPLANT
Your comment on the Churchill quote not being relevant has been awarded the stupidest comment of the day.
Congratulation!!!
December 6th, 2005 at 3:43 pmThe liberal-hating Americans advocate actions that are a retreat to the savagery and barbarianism of centuries ago. They fail to see that being the biggest and the baddest in the world means that we will be in a perpetual state of war. Human nature determines that the weak nations of the world will form alliances and find other means to work against the US; and global weapons proliferation guarantees that in the future.
December 6th, 2005 at 4:20 pmThe terrorists in Iraq are not finite – like the Whack-a-mole game, a new one pops up for every one we hit.
We must use our power wisely or it will be wrested from us. We must exercise diplomacy and statesmanship; retain the high ground; demonstrate that more can be accomplished benefiting everyone through mutual cooperation. That means a little give-and-take, but the liberal-hating Americans cannot raise themselves to that level — they mistakenly think that is weak. They would remain at the self-destructive level of base instincts, using force in defending the US status in the world, until a sufficient number of subordinated nations rise up and combine to defeat us. The Bush administration is unable/unwilling to take the high road, to show some humility, less bravado, more statesmanship, less stubbornness. Over thousands of years, human nature hasn’t changed very much; they and the LHA would do well to review a little world history.
[...] [...]
December 6th, 2005 at 4:52 pmrepublicanism = terrorism
December 6th, 2005 at 5:12 pmActually cynicon implant ,
that quote said in no uncertain terms, that the power George Busch is lobbying for, and currently enjoying ala carte, to lock people up, without right or writ, is what constitutes a totalitarian government.
In other words, if you do these things, lock people up, with no charges, hold them, imprison them, then your government = Totalitarian government. See? It’s easy:)
Oh and if you’re wondering what totalitarian means, other than the fact that he referenced nazi’s and communists, we can turn to Daniel Webster (hint: he wrote a best seller).
Websters defines Totalitarian as meaning;
Dictatorial, one-party, oppressive, despotic, tyrannical
See, totalitarian = bad.
Demcratic = good.
So if your government, has been arresting and imprisoning people, ANY people, without writ, without warrant, then your government is a totalitarian government and toltalitarian is bad.
See in order to understand the relavence of a quote, you have to know something about the topic.
But see, it’s easy. And I knew you could do it.
December 6th, 2005 at 10:51 pmAnd please forgive the typos. Sometimes I type fast, and your comment really did not merit much of my time.
December 6th, 2005 at 10:53 pm#57 LHA
By whom? France? Germany? What do we care these people think anyway? They hated us before 9/11. They hate us now. What do we gain by forcing the world to “love†us.
Pardon my French but what an arrogant a**hole you are!!!!
First of all, Europe is not made up of two countries (get a map, it might help)
Secondly: We don’t hate you (i.e. the American people – YOU personally: well, after that arrogant comment…..) we hate the American Government.
Third: WHO named the President of the US the “Leader of the free world”, “most powerful man in the world” – it was not us non-Americans.
And it DAMN WELL IS our business what you (i.e. your government) does “over there” because unfortunately it effects the rest of the world.
And stop with this “Liberals hate America”, “Liberals want us to lose the War in Iraq” etc. bull**** – it’s getting sooooooooooo boring.
THINK for a change and come up with some actual arguments why you support this joke of an administration, torture, unjustified wars….. Can you do that? Just for once?
Not one troll has EVER answered that one simple question asked by so many of “us” here on the blog: WHAT HAS BUSH DONE in the past five years that was actually GOOD????
And WHY do you support torture? Why are you not OUTRAGED by the fact that your government TORTURES people in YOUR name??? WHY is it – in your opinion – a GOOD thing to physically hurt and humiliate people????? And WHY in God’s name are you then surprised that there are people in this world who HATE you?
December 7th, 2005 at 5:08 am#57 “What are we winning in Iraq? Lets see: how about the first truly democratic nation in the region that will be our ally.” You’re kidding right? Police drilling holes in the legs of Sunni muslims, civil war, crime, Above 80% cent of Iraqis wanting you to leave. Government leaders acknowledging that insurgents have the “right of resistence,”, the US spending over $300 billion a year to turn Iraq into a training ground for terrorist — Is that democracy?
Chinese students in Beijing made a copy of your Statue of Liberty during Tiananmen in 1989, as they fought off tanks and government troops. The chances of that happening now is nil to zero. Your country is now a byword for tyranny around the world.
December 7th, 2005 at 7:15 amAnd just imagine — George Bush goes to China bringing the message of democracy. He tells them it’s time to change, to stop running secret prisons and to stop using torture as a state policy… Isn’t that ironic?
December 7th, 2005 at 7:54 amActually Tim, it’s more than ironic, it’s IMPERIAL HUBRIS!
December 7th, 2005 at 11:47 amYou know it’s funny, in another Blog topic, someone suggested the Mike Godwin rule on mentioning Nazi in an argument.
Well, we wouldn’t have to if we weren’t,,,,you know,,,,,TORTURING PEOPLE!!!
Man, can you believe we even have to debate this in America???
December 7th, 2005 at 11:49 amBut when I do things like, draw comparisons of our current relaxing of our own liberties to “keep America safe” and the rise of the Third Reich, I am not preaching hate.
I am drawing vital comparisons that are clear to so many, of the similar strategies employed by the Bush Administration and neo-conservative Christians in the house and the senate, to draw us along like sheep, non questioning patriotic 25 cent Walmart flag waving sheep.
The idea is to “learn†from the mistakes of history, so as not to repeat them. Nazi Germany did not start up the ovens overnight. It took lots of time, work and a hell of a lot of “sheepâ€.(and I don’t mean kosher sheep).
Why was little Heinrich Himmler and his servants like Koch and Pister, Hoess and others, able to get away with massacres? Because the people of the village just outside of Dachau and Buchenwald did not care, did not dare ask questions. That’s why.
And that’s why they were cleaning the camps in their Sunday best, when the allies finally liberated the camps.
Questioning ones own governments actions was a pivotal concept for our founding fathers in forming our Union. In fact, Washington was so afraid of regressing into a Monarchy, did not want to be called President. He thought it sounded too imperial.
Our founding documents were clear on this concept the capability to protest peacefully ones own government.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievancesâ€
1st Ammendment of the US Constitution Ratified December 15 1791
Indeed the very father of the Constitution who also happened to be the 4th President of the United States, James Madison, warned us of the trappings of becoming beguiled by religious zeal, and righteous indignation;
“Of all the enemies of public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other
“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuriesâ€
“Liberty may be endangered by the abuse of liberty, but also by the abuse of powerâ€
“No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfareâ€
James Madison
But perhaps President Madison’s prophetic capabilities were best expressed by this glimpse into our time;
“If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemyâ€
James Madison
And of course he made it clear the defining safeguard against these identified pitfalls was the checks and balances of our 3 tiered Federal hierarchies.
“The executive (President) has no right, in any case, to decide the question, whether there is or is not cause for declaring warâ€
James Madison
In 1995 the House defeated, by a vote of 217-201, an amendment to repeal the central features of the War Powers Act, or Resolution P.L. 93-148, that have been deemed unconstitutional by every President since the law’s enactment in 1973.
But even the War Powers Act required there to be a “Clear and Present Danger†of Imminent Hostilities, or Armed Conflict.
But Since 911, the Right wing of the Republican party, including the executive office, have told us how “everything’s changed†and we need to make new laws, like the Enabling Ac…., er,, I mean the Patriot Act, laws that may restrict freedoms, but will “keep us safeâ€.
They changed the requirements of the War Powers Act and essentially suspended the “clear and present danger†clause of the War Powers Act and convinced us that “because of 911†he must be able to launch “pre-emptive†war in order to secure America.
See if you just examine the FACTS, you will see that making such comparisons is not the end of the argument. In fact, it’s the beginning.
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