Townhall.com: Associated Press “Caused Some U.S. Soldiers to Lose Their Lives”
Townhall.com: Associated Press “Caused Some U.S. Soldiers to Lose Their Lives”
The other night, a guest on Fox News accused ABC News of “putting Americans at risk†and “killing American soldiers.†Today, conservative pundits continued to blame the media for the administration’s failed strategy in Iraq.
Todd Manzi of TownHall.com, a popular right-wing site that was recently spun-off from the Heritage Foundation, writes:
The Associated Press has caused some U.S. soldiers to lose their lives. … The irresponsible, antiwar-biased reporting from the Associated Press over the last four months can only have encouraged our enemy to keep trying. Terrorists may have been given the false hope that all is not lost for them. … [AP reporters] have allowed themselves to become a pawn of our enemy.
Is there anything the right-wing can’t blame on the “liberal bias” of the mainstream media?
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog Roll
Oh my god, these people are lunatics.
So, the War on Christmas is a cover for the War on the Media?
December 8th, 2005 at 1:25 pmBush Opened the closing of pandoras box.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:27 pmIt’s getting beyond a joke now.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:28 pm#2 was not meant as a Joke.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:31 pmFreedom is coming to a closing. This is what Bush wants.
Blame all others, accept no responsibility, silence the press. Moving beyond fascism to nazi ideals. These are dark times for liberty, may the liberals and progrssives be successful in their quest to turn back the traitors of democracy, lest nothing of our remarkable history will be left for our children.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:31 pmMedia War!
December 8th, 2005 at 1:32 pmhttp://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/07/iraq-media-blaming/
December 8th, 2005 at 1:34 pmAnd now, the attack on the media (more accurately, the public information mechanism) is being raised to a higher level.
Think of all the sheep who will say “gee, them librul media folks are killing our troops. The very troops that I show my support for by placing a ribbon on my back bumper. The media is unpatriotic”.
That is the goal. You do not have to worry about the impact of a message if the messenger has been totally marginalized. Standard totalitarian tactic. It does not matter if it is the truth even. Soon, Scotty will be telling us that the only folks that we should be listening to and trusting will be the administration. If that doesn’t scare the hell out of you then you are not paying attention.
The irony in all of this is that the fact that the news is horrible is being blamed on the delivery mechanism. The obvious truth, that is inexplicably lost on too many, is that the media is reporting bad news because, wait for it, the news is BAD.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:35 pmThe media is to blame for military deaths. Every last one of them.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:37 pmThe Rush to War is the blame for military deaths.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:41 pmYes, Its was the Media That Hyped War .
Yes, the media needs to stop planting IEDs and using rocket propelled grenades to shoot footage with. I say they go back to using cameras and tape recorders.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:41 pmEvery soldier death rests squarely on Judith Miller’sdelicate, attention-starved shoulders.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:41 pmAt the Beginning of all this, I remember how the Media fully covered”WAR”.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:42 pmDo they really think insurgents are reading American papers?
December 8th, 2005 at 1:42 pmTalk like that should alienate the press against the conservatives and cause them to search for the truth behind the Bush lies and report it.
Heh heh, look fellas, it’s simple.
Just because we make nothing but mistakes, doesn’t mean you have to tell people about them, do ya?
Can’t you fellas just write some nice stuff? Who cares if it happened or not? Its to fight the evil doers.
Come on, git with the program.
George “Dubya” Bush
December 8th, 2005 at 1:44 pmGoing down like a lead weight, grasping at straws.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:44 pmHere, let me throw you . . . my effin’ sledge hammer!
WTF! I didn’t know so many terrorists had all these subscriptions to Western media rags. How the hell do they get Times delivered there overnight?
December 8th, 2005 at 1:45 pmHey, how’d he get in here???
December 8th, 2005 at 1:45 pmI mean, thats all you saw after 911.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:45 pmBack in the ole days, I wonder how War was Propagated?
Wasn,t Propagation used in Hitler Era?
I ended #15 too soon.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:46 pmThe press are not the ones killing Americans and Iraqis. Bush&Co. are to blame for the fiasco in Iraq. They have no plan, except stay the course — to where? They invaded a country illegally; they are immoral. I hold them 100% accountable for the deaths of Americans and Iraqis. This is theirs and no one else.
It really is sick isn’t it?
It’s not the bullets and the bombs, its all those pesky reporters who are revealing these things that are the problem.
It’s like “bizzaro world”.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:48 pmhttp://tooabsent.com/herald/endurance/propagandation.html
December 8th, 2005 at 1:49 pmI agree. I just watched Hotel Rwanda and these media mouthpieces on the right are just like the agitators in Rwanda. Soon they will be calling liberals and leftwingers “cockroaches” and calling on people to “exterminate” them.
They have begun actually. Michael Reagan(The pudgy unloved by Daddy boy) has called for Howard Dean to be hung for treason. Michael Savage too is calling for arrests and executions for treason.
The wingers are agitating because their castle in the sand is collapsing around them and they have to point to enemies to deflect from the disaster they have made of this nation and of Iraq too.
How long before some winger decides to pull another ‘Alan Berg’ and whack someone in the press….
-GSD
December 8th, 2005 at 1:51 pmIts the Right Wing version of Political Correctness…Can’t criticize the President! Or the Terrorists will Win!
December 8th, 2005 at 1:52 pmanother good link.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:53 pmhttp://chromatius.blogspot.com/2005/12/narnia-christian-propaganda.html
I buy the New York Times for the double coupons at Walgreen’s myself.
-Osama Bin Laden
December 8th, 2005 at 1:53 pmI wrote this for a radio talk host and should provide some answers or at least some relief.
Mr. Bernie Ward,
An ardent listener to your nightly radio spot. Right now I’m putting together this email for you as I’m listening to your program, and I may have the answer to the confusing question why Americans are voting against their own self interests and how quick and irresistibly they believe the lies from the Right. . And the basic answers are that their (White America) sense of history and self-worth has come into question. To them this is unacceptable—at any and all cost; which is what’s happening at this moment. Realistically, all this began to manifest when Ronald Reagan was elected as president. But in all honestly, I believe it really started with the Vietnam War and its shocking and unacceptable conclusion: we lost. And it wasn’t just the war we lost—we also lost our president, Richard Nixon. This sent a shock wave, border to border and coast to coast of White America. This proved that the war was a phony and President Nixon a liar. This forced Americans to question the very core of their moral foundation and their sense of purpose—their purpose of self-righteous, which they believe is their destiny and guided by the Light from above. All this imploded when Nixon tanked. But within a couple of years a new and up coming Right Wing movement (the neo-conservatives) went to work, scoring one victory after another in their religious sectors, in their communities. And I believe all this was spearheaded by the Heritage Foundation. The Foundation’s tactics: Accuse the liberals of anti-family, anti-God, anti-America, anti-mother, anti-marriage, anti-fetus and in short: anti-liberal all around. With the help of the “liberal†media they made the word liberal an expletive (remember the “L†word?). And all this was funded by the multi-right wing millionaires and corporations. And I believe you know who and what they are. What this movement accomplishes was to exonerate America of its failures, and blame “The Fall†on the dirty, rotten, and back-stabbing liberals. And these Americans went for it, hook, line, and sinker. They had no choice: To accept otherwise, they would have to question their entire “white†history. Without this history—or myth—they will have to accept a more realistic one—according to Ward Churchill. White Americans found that to be totally unacceptable. And for these Americans they are ready to accept any politician, any judge, and any president—any lie—that’ll tell them what they want to hear, especially when Jesus Christ is now considered as part of their American history. That’s why they are more than ready to believe such phonies as Reagan, the first Bush, and this latest disgrace, Bush, Jr. But with the present Americans, it gets worse: they are willing to sacrifice their children’s and their grandchildren’s future, just so they can either be swept up by the Rapture in time or die in their sleep; the complete misery of others had become their sinful and foremost pleasure. Mr. Ward, to me these are the worst and the most rotten cowards any nation unfortunately is straddled with; stinking vermin who aren’t fit to be scurrying about. Their malicious intentions toward Social Security, Medicare, pensions, childcare, the Iraq War and the support for the bankruptcy bill are but short examples of how far these Americans have sunk. The talk I hear is that these Americans are the dumbest pile of rocks on the planet. Wrong: It’s worse. Sept. 11 and the Iraq War only provide further excuses for these self-proclaimed “patriots†to stab their fellow neighbors in the back by trying to dismantle our civil rights—and are the first to turn against our war heroes like John McCain and Max Cleland in a second; a knife behind the door. To them, this further justifies the degradation to our veterans, the hacking away at their medical and financial benefits while allowing fantastic tax breaks go to the rich and corporate America who wouldn’t lift a finger to help our veterans or our nation. So, for these pro-veteran and pro-morality Americans to believe in this new White Direction, provided by the ultra-extreme Republicans, it all proves that they have gone soft between the ears and soft between the legs. In short, STARK, RAVING PSYHOCITICS, not stupid. It’s important to understand this. This is the very core why they can’t or won’t be reached. For any animal can be “educated†—even a flatworm. And that is the answer why these Americans are voting against their own self-interest as they are steering yours, mine, and theirs—and our country—into the toilet.
A. Gomez, April 23, 2005 12: 50 am
December 8th, 2005 at 1:54 pmHere’s a scary postscript to that article. At the bottom of the townhall.com page is this bit:
Another 140k in the facist coffers. Puke.
December 8th, 2005 at 1:54 pm#21 – “They have no plan, except stay the course — to where? They invaded a country illegally; they are immoral.”
December 8th, 2005 at 1:56 pmComment by Marie
***** Marie, they have a plan – they were simply exercising prudence when they didn’t tell you – or anybody else with Al Jezeera on their speed dial.
We need a “STFU” brigaid that can swarm these robots any time they start pissing this pseudo-patriotic crap.
“I’m not going to STFU! You STFU!”
You know, make twice the noise….
December 8th, 2005 at 1:58 pmMightyTranny is here to spout her anti-american fascist rhetoric. Go cook your fake husband dinner there, and STFU. You and your reichwing friends created Osama and Al Qaeda, you need to sit down and keep quiet you freaky terrorist!
December 8th, 2005 at 1:58 pmOverheard in a ditch along the airport road in Baghdad:
Insurg^H^H^HTerrorist 1: You know, with all these schools being built, and all the progress, maybe it’s time we give up and stop attacking the American troops. Let’s join the political process.
Terrorist 2: Hey, did you read this AP article in the NY Times? It says some Americans are questioning the war.
Terrorist 1: Really? Well, let’s use this IED then.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:01 pmmighty aphrodite,
You almost had it that time. Here I will fix it for you to repost.
See, no personal attack, but it states your point of view.
You’re welcome.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:05 pmLet them keep blaming, people will just get more tired and listen to them even less. The American people know what’s going on here, as every poll coming out now seems to demonstrate.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:05 pmI would like to see the two following clips played over and over and over again to see who is the outrageous and irresponsible person who does not care about the well being of American troops in harms way.
Clip # 1: Howard Dean at a political rally eagerly urging his supporters to follow him to more campaign spots with a loud a vigrous party cheer, “Yeeeehaaww”.
Clip # 2: George W. Bush challenging Bathists, rejectionists, insurgents, suiciders, Al Qaeda members, Bin Laden and Al Zarqawi to: “Bring it on” to American troops in Iraq with guns, bombs, rochet launchers, car bombs, suicide attacks, sniper rifles and exploding vests.
Who seems more batshit nuts and out of his mind in regards to the well being of American troops in harms way?
-GSD
December 8th, 2005 at 2:07 pmComment deleted by admin.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:10 pmI must work harder!
Dear Leader is always right!
-Mighty “Boxer” Aphrodite
December 8th, 2005 at 2:16 pmAlso overheard in Iraq:
Terrorist 1: Tell Osama that our plan to destroy Christmas is on schedule. Our liberal allies have done well.
Terrorist 2: Tell him yourself. He’s right here in Iraq, you know, along with every other member of al Qaeda.
Terrorist 1: Really? Nobody is in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia?
Terrorist 2: Nope. They all came here when Osama decided to make Iraq a central front in the war on terror. You know, from our side. That was our choice. Really.
Terrorist 1: Wow. That George Bush is too smart for us. We better give up and join the political process.
Terrorist 2: Hey, did you read this article in the Washington Post? It says electricity production in Iraq is below pre-war levels.
Terrorist 1: Really? That’s a shocker. Well, better strap on this suicide vest, then.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:20 pmPayson–
Can you ban #37 for racism, PLEASE?
December 8th, 2005 at 2:20 pmGomez,
December 8th, 2005 at 2:22 pmGreat post in #28.If your theory is correct then we need to wipe out their seed as well so the same neocon(nazi) mistake doesn’t happen again in 10-20 years.
IRI you are a foul, vile Nazi bastard. Your bigotry is disgusting.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:24 pmMizzWrong,
Where do you live again? I’d love to tell that immigrant that fixes your burgers, cleans your dishes, and works hard so you can sit your oversized butt into your giant SUV and not have to walk the 50 feet inside a restaraunt. They’d LOVE to know how you feel, so they could crap in your burger and spit in your food you arrogant rascist moron.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:27 pmI didn’t think DEADENDERS responded to encouragement, thus the name.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:28 pmTerrorists don’t kill people, the liberal media kills people
December 8th, 2005 at 2:28 pmPropagation.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:30 pmhttp://www.google.com/search?q=plant+propagation&sa=N&revid=1238909294&qpos=0&oi=revisions_inline
Mighty Asspoodite said
### “Marie, they have a plan – they were simply exercising prudence when they didn’t tell you” ###
Actually they didn’t tell us, because they know we hang people for treason.
Here, let me give you a good standard to live by.
If you can’t tell other people about something you are about to do, it’s probably WRONG.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:33 pmEasy Propagation Techniques that Work Great at Home.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:33 pmhttp://www.tooabsent.com/herald/endurance.html
So how many soldiers died after Dubya’s “Bring It On”? About 90% of the total so far and climbing.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:35 pmThanks, Sponge – your’re RIGHT – Marie wasn’t quoted by Al Jezeera last week – it was that liberal powerhouse, your comrade, Dr. Dean. The intercept from the barbarians reads as follows: “Dear Brothers (we don’t recognize “sisters except for breeding and incubating purposes), Soon, very soon, we will unleash our brand of Islam on the Shiites and the Kurds – bide your time, we will act as soon as the cowards from America retreat. How many were Ho Chi Minh and Pol Pot able to rid themselves of in order to shape their countries in their vision? Deepest thanks to Dr. Dean.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:36 pmYour friend in the Medical Community,
Al Zawahiri, MD
You’ll have to pry my librul media from my cold dead hands!
December 8th, 2005 at 2:37 pmIf I can remember where I left it…
December 8th, 2005 at 2:37 pmOh and who can forget this little diddy
### “or anybody else with Al Jezeera on their speed dial” ###
This is the kinda stuff you hear from evil people, as they are rapidly sinking into the cesspool they have made for themselves.
See, this problem with the “truth” you guys have is very illuminating.
You know who’s afraid of the TRUTH?
LIARS, that’s who.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:40 pmNazi Propaganda (1933-1945),Hitler Propaganda,Nazi Propaganda and Censorship
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ww2era.htm
December 8th, 2005 at 2:43 pmhttp://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/
http://www.cultsock.ndirect.co.uk/MUHome/cshtml/propaganda/pol3.html
http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/propag.htm
Bush used Media For Propaganda.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:45 pmNow he blames Media.
Make no mistake about it……Hitler all over again.
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I don’t plan on living in a country where you have to “watch what you say”.
People like Asspoofrighty are the same people who helped Hitler into power. They are like blind little sheep, so trusting of their warmongering leaders, so blindy ready to cut out their own tongues, if they thought it would forward the war machine.
They are cowards, traitors and wimps.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:45 pmThen of course Osama used Propaganda as well, Right after the American Spy Plane made that Emergency landing in China, Osama said” Americans Are Cowards.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:47 pmEvery body in this world are free to form thier own agenda.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:49 pmwith the help of propaganda.
Propaganda is the weapon of the dog with the other dog’s jaws locked on his neck.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:50 pmMightyHermaphrodite,
You’ve already been exposed as a fraud, why are you still here? Your entire fabricated identity was exposed, go away you retarded troll.
As for why americans lose lives, it’s because republicans are as inept at planning wars, as they are at everything else they do.
Republican = IDIOT
December 8th, 2005 at 2:52 pm#49
Come on mighty aphrodite. You can do better than that. George W. Bush is quoted by Al Jazeera constantly. In fact, every time he speaks. Does that mean he is working for the terrorists? No. It doesn’t make him working for the US either.
BTW, my handle is still SpudgeBoy. See how above I called you mighty aphrodite? Can you point to any post where I haven’t called you mighty aphrodite? I dare you to find one. If you can, I will let you call me Sponge. How’s that?
December 8th, 2005 at 2:54 pmSpudge,
I don’t know, terrorism has increased 3-4 fold under bush, clearly he’s working for terrorism.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:55 pmYou know, it’s funny you mention the spy plane incident.
I saw this as a sign of Bushes leadership skills, or lack therof.
When the plane first landed, the Chinese President was away golfing, and was not informed.
The Chinese Defense Minister was going to release the plane, but then Bush went on television, and DEMANDED the release, somthing they were planing on doing anyway.
So when President RU heard this, he decided to keep it for a while, and make dubya sweat.
This was a prime example of how republicans are always too busy talking tough, to actually be tough.
December 8th, 2005 at 2:56 pmTypo RU = HU
December 8th, 2005 at 2:58 pmThat was a Good publicity stunt by The Chinese Defense Minister .
December 8th, 2005 at 3:02 pmIt worked in thier favour in more ways than you can Imagine.
Sorry, MA, but your having faith in Bush&Co. having an (unspoken) plan other than “stay the course” in Iraq is childlike in its belief of the mythology.
December 8th, 2005 at 3:04 pmhttp://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/iraq.transition/
December 8th, 2005 at 3:06 pmComment deleted by admin.
December 8th, 2005 at 3:14 pm“If you can’t tell other people about something you are about to do, it’s probably WRONG.”
December 8th, 2005 at 3:14 pmComment by WORFEUS — December 8, 2005 @ 2:33 pm
****Gosh, Warface – that was a pretty sweet motto your guardian angel (or Jiminy Cricket) taught you!!! Your naivete, however, might be genetic. That’s why I’m sure those folks on the Manhattan project didn’t let your relatives in on the BIG news!! Dr. Al Zawahiri hopes you get hired by the “agency” really soon – what a wonderful source of info you would be!!!!
As a soldier with two tours in Iraq under my belt, I can honestly tell you that the news stories coming out of Iraq are not indicative of the true situation on the ground. The vast majority of Iraqis support us, and what we are trying to do. The majority of terrorists in Iraq are coming in from other countries. However, the media does not portray this. I have seen first hand that we are, in fact, winning in Iraq. The mass media, for the most part, will not admit this because they hate the President so much. Perception is reality, and as long as the world thinks we are doing badly in Iraq, then the terrorists will only be emboldened, and American troops will continue to be in danger. That is the truth, folks.
December 8th, 2005 at 3:14 pmWTF!
I thought we were staying the god damn course.
CNN
December 8, 2005
U.S. considers pulling 30,000 troops from Iraq
Is GWOT over? Didn’t Chuck Hagel say this is a generational war.
CNN
April 20, 2004
LOU DOBBS TONIGHT
Or was that Cliff May:
CNN
January 31, 2005
AMERICAN MORNING
Or was that Condaleeza Rice?
December 8th, 2005 at 3:17 pm#69 – stop propogating more lies! You are a shameless foot soldier for an evil Administration. Shame on the vulgar nation who allows torture and the killing of innocent women and children all in the name of oil.
December 8th, 2005 at 3:17 pm#69
This is how we know you are not truly an Iraq vet.
What is your attachment. What branch are you with.
December 8th, 2005 at 3:19 pmEllie-
December 8th, 2005 at 3:22 pmHow dare you criticize me. I’ve risked my life twice in order to help a nation of repressed people who were tortured and murdered for a few DECADES by one of the most brutal dicators in history. I didn’t ask to go, but I did my duty. Lies? What the hell do you know other than what you read on web sites like this? I’m trying to tell you the TRUTH. It is all I am interested in. And the truth is, negative media puts my brothers-in-arms in more peril. All we want is to come home in one piece to our wives and family, and the media is not helping. Get a grip.
Don’t worry, mighty aphrodite,
Since your husband clearly hasn’t taught you to defend yourself or your family I’ll show you how. You won’t need to pay someone else to do it for you or afix cameras on every street corner.
December 8th, 2005 at 3:25 pmI’ll even whack Zawahiri an extra time just for you when we track him down on your street and you’re tightly hidden in the secret compartment in the floor.
Spudge-
First of all, you have no idea about military organization. Attachment? Try battalion, or maybe brigade. For the record, I was with the 3rd Bn, 18th FA (17th FA BDE), out of Fort Sill for the 1st tour. Then I was with the 1st BN, 6th FA (1 ID), out of Germany for the second tour. This is for real, people. All I am trying to do is tell the truth. Most of terrorists we killed or captured in our area of operations were Syrian.
December 8th, 2005 at 3:28 pmDogface,
When did the mission become the liberation of the Iraqi people with US blood and treasure?
We were told on the run up to the war that the Iraqi regime posed a grave and gathering danger.
Well, by then end of 2003 Saddam was gone and his successors were dead. The large stockpiles of WMD were not found.
Now we are told by conservatives, who often ridicule Americans for spending too much money in nation or welfare, and schools and civil projects, that we must rebuild Iraq and that Iraq is now the central front in the war on terrorists.
When did the change occur?
-GSD
December 8th, 2005 at 3:29 pmHey dogface,
December 8th, 2005 at 3:30 pmGot a sweet gig as a bottle in a carnival ring toss for ya when you get back.
Also the Pentagon estimates that foreign insurgents number between 4 to 10% of the insurgency. Also, the stastistics of captured insurgents shows larger numbers of Pakistanis, Yemenis, Egyptians and Saudis than Syrians.
-GSD
December 8th, 2005 at 3:32 pmActually I do. I was 4/5 Field Artillery 1st Infantry Division Fort Riley Kansas. You know, right over by Manhattan Kansas where the University of Kansas is?
Oh I know abou the military all right. I was fighting in Desert Storm when you were still sh!tting your diapers.
December 8th, 2005 at 3:32 pm#73, Dogface, Ellie. Step back and try again: how about some facts to corroborate your statements, both of you. Seems to me that (1) Majority of insurgents are Iraqi – here is my evidence http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/16/AR2005111602519.html and here (admitted by your own Army, Dogface) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/12/04/wirq04.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/12/04/ixportal.html Also the ones that are foreign, were not terrorists before, but have been radicalized by the invasion http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0923/dailyUpdate.html
(2) How can there be significant progress being made when it is not safe for journalists to report what is going on?
December 8th, 2005 at 3:32 pmWe were not told a grave and gathering danger that when once it was removed should be replaced by tens of thousands of American soldiers.
What of the Iraqi’s that want us to leave? I have read that in Iraq, it is very common for people to say whatever is pleasing to men with guns.
Do you think that an Iraqi will tell you to go hell as you are searching his house for insurgents or weapons?
-GSD
December 8th, 2005 at 3:34 pmholding a gala multi-million dollar inaugural gala right after it was made public that many troops and their equipment were still not armored was very crass… Bush could have given up the partying, asked to have to have those funds put towards up-armoring Humvees and come out looking like a hero… instead, he contributed to troops’ deaths through his inaction…
December 8th, 2005 at 3:36 pm#76
December 8th, 2005 at 3:36 pmIt really does not matter what the war is about anymore, not to our troops. Can’t you understand? Were we mislead about the war? Maybe. The point is, we need to protect our troops, and media is not helping. The occupation of Iraq will end someday. Probably sooner than later. In the mean time, let’s try and keep as many soldiers alive as possible. Can we at least do that?
What of the Iraqi woman who become a failed suicide bomber after her relatives were killed by Americans in Iraq?
Now there are Iraqis going to other nations to commit acts of terrorism.
There were none before.
In the international sweep after 9/11 that was undertaken by the US, how many Iraqis ended up at Guantanimo Bay?
Answer: 1
Iraq was not an exporter of terrorism prior to the invasion of the US. Now it appears to be the case.
December 8th, 2005 at 3:38 pm#78 and #80-
All I know is, the majority of the terrorists we killed or captured IN OUR AO were foreign, mostly Syrian. Of course, there were many Iraqis, but the hard core terrorists are Jihadists coming in from abroad. Those are the facts.
December 8th, 2005 at 3:40 pm#82
Wasn’t that the same party in which the famous “Looking for WMDs” slide show was presented? I am pretty sure it was.
BBC
March 26, 2004
Bush’s Iraq WMDs joke backfires
Did they actually think anybody would think that is a joke?
December 8th, 2005 at 3:40 pmSpudge-
Hell yeah, a fellow Redleg. What was your MOS?
December 8th, 2005 at 3:41 pmMaking the arguement for attacking Iraq are we?
December 8th, 2005 at 3:41 pm#83, you mean the same media that first exposed the fact that not enough armor was given to the troops, after which both Rumsfeld and Bush admitted troops were not properly equipped, after which the armor suppliers said they had not received orders and had idle manufacturing capacity, after which (supposedly) additional armor was sent to the troops?
Yeah, that darn media.
Of course, you must also be aware that many whom you criticize were against Saddam when Rumsfeld was for Saddam.
December 8th, 2005 at 3:41 pmAlso, Dogface, what other countries besides Syria are supplying fighters to Iraq, from what you’ve seen?
December 8th, 2005 at 3:42 pm#87
13 Foxtrot
I got to ride in the mobile coffin.
December 8th, 2005 at 3:42 pmBut does reporting facts endanger troops?
What if the US media ONLY reported(that is an oxymoron because that would then be propagandizing) but what if they only told of schools painted and candy handed out. Would that make any Iraqis who are inclined to attack US troops any less likely?
We have heard for 4 years about how terrible the attack on American on 9/11 was, now Rumsfeld thinks that reporting about attacks and bombings is somehow bad.
So, the media should report and make a huge deal out of attacks on American soil, but should report only shool paintings and purple thumbs in Iraq. It doesn’t make sense and it is dishonest. It would be an insult.
There are people on FOX who think that Iraq is wonderful. Which I guess means that the soldiers over there are not even really in danger or sacrificing much, because it is a wonderland of happy children and baskets of dates and olives.
Truth is truth.
-GSD
December 8th, 2005 at 3:44 pm#80 – maybe you think this war was about something than funding the corporate base that elected Bushie in the first place. Those of us dealing in reality do not. We now know it was never about 9/11 – this Administration wanted to go to war the day Georgie took office. Put two and two together.
Dogface – I want nothing to do with your propoganda. I am not interested in Faux News.
December 8th, 2005 at 3:46 pmSpudge-
December 8th, 2005 at 3:46 pmI used to a 13B, then I went over to “the dark side” and attended OCS a few years back. Thanks for your service. Look, I’m pretty much with you guys as far as us getting the hell out of Iraq. Like I said, I just want to come back in one piece, and my men also. The negative media perception is hurting us. It is putting our lives in danger, and we don’t like it.
#90-
December 8th, 2005 at 3:50 pmI really don’t know. What I do know is what was briefed to us by our intelligence guys, and the recurring theme was “Syrian terrorists”.
Also, it is the warthumpers who are the first to blame everone else for the tragedy and death over in Iraq…
Did Howard Dean send America to war? Did France or Russia or Germany send our troops to war? How about Mike Wallace or CBS News.
Now that the war has turned disastrous they warthumpers want everyone else to be in on the blame…they want to accuse Howard Dean of endangering troops…Bottom line, removing American troops asap would lessen the possibility that they would be killed in Iraq. And if the amount of people involved in the insurgency is so small then the Iraqis should be able to handle it.
READ THIS POST AGAIN:
************************************************************
I would like to see the two following clips played over and over and over again to see who is the outrageous and irresponsible person who does not care about the well being of American troops in harms way.
Clip # 1: Howard Dean at a political rally eagerly urging his supporters to follow him to more campaign spots with a loud a vigrous party cheer, “Yeeeehaawwâ€.
Clip # 2: George W. Bush challenging Bathists, rejectionists, insurgents, suiciders, Al Qaeda members, Bin Laden and Al Zarqawi to: “Bring it on†to American troops in Iraq with guns, bombs, rochet launchers, car bombs, suicide attacks, sniper rifles and exploding vests.
Who seems more batshit nuts and out of his mind in regards to the well being of American troops in harms way?
-GSD
December 8th, 2005 at 3:52 pmDogface, as a former grunt myself, MOS 11B5X, I appreciate your service. As we all do here. But putting the press in the Administration’s pocket is not the answer.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the war was fought well. Its the occupation which has been badly handled. For several years Rummy and Cheney have allowed the status quo and I, for one, am sick of it. I’m only glad the “mainstream media” that has been attacked daily for the past 5 years by the rightwing has finally developed a backbone.
Only a stong press can promote change. If we are going to win or get out with any success, there has to be a plan: not “stay the course.” That is not a plan. That is defeat in the making. We cannot sustain the expense, the loss of military recruits, or the drain in world prestige much longer.
I mean, every month the death toll rises: for Iraqis and for our troops. How may times you want to take Mosul? Or go back into Fallujah? That is not winning, Sarge, that’s an ass kicking over time. Col. Murtha is right and its time our press started supporting our military by demanding a solution.
December 8th, 2005 at 3:52 pmDogface,
Read what you wrote.
You were briefed by intellegence guys.
The recurring theme was “Syrian terrorists.”
Now read what I wrote.
“Making the arguement for attacking Iraq are we?”
Heh, that should have been:
“Making the arguement for attacking Syria are we?”
And by “we I mean: the Bush administration that controls the “intellegence guys.”
Do you understand where I am coming from?
December 8th, 2005 at 3:58 pm#97-
December 8th, 2005 at 3:58 pmI agree that the press is the agent of change in this country. But the press is not telling the real truth. We built schools. We got the water running over there. We made it safe for people to be free. You don’t hear enough about it in the media. I mean, just last week, Joe Lieberman came back from Iraq and had a lot of positive things to say about the effort. Did anyone hear read about it? Of course not, because the major media outlets didn’t cover it. It was all about Murtha, Murtha, Murtha. That kind of stuff is infuriating to soldiers. Nobody knows about all the good we have done over there.
# 95.
Part of being a citizien in a democracy is being able to participate and to be willing to criticize.
The leaders in the Whitehouse have spent energy attacking people who question their ideas. Ari Fliescher, spokesman for Bush said: “People should be careful about what they say” after Bill Maher made a comment that displeased the Whitehouse.
Michael Reagan, radio nitwit, said Howard Dean should be “hung for treason” for what he said.
What I am saying to you, is while you have been over their fighting for what you have been told is “freedom” this Whitehouse and administration has been gradually removing the freedoms we hold so dear right out from under our feet.
Don’t you think there were Germans who believed that they had to fight for their nation and were lead down a path of endless war for the leaders in charge?
The war itself becomes the rallying cry. Bush keeps saying we must honor the dead Americans by continuing to fight? That is not logical.
There are many who love this country and would gladly fight. I bet there are Iraqis who think the same way. Sure lots of fanatics and Saddam loyalists, but lots of people that had their family members bombed and their houses sacked by foreign troops….
-GSD
December 8th, 2005 at 4:00 pmIf dogface says “truth” or “facts” one more time, I am going to vomit. Maybe his comments are “facts” in some parallel universe.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:00 pmSpudge-
December 8th, 2005 at 4:03 pmI hear you, dude. What I mean by intel guys was our Battalion and Brigade intel officers, who briefed us about what was happening on the ground at the time. Seriously, we had Syrian terrorists all over the place. As far as attacking Syria, believe me, nobody around here wants ANY of that. Our families are suffering badly because of the OPTEMPO However, we do want to finish the job in Iraq so that our brothers and sisters did not die in vain, and the media definitely is not helping.
#99
Here is what is wrong with Lieberman:
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/SOTU1.wmv
December 8th, 2005 at 4:03 pmdogface;
i hate to break the news to you but it was the united states who put saddaam in power in the first place. so your argument is that we save the iraqi people from us!!!!!
December 8th, 2005 at 4:04 pmDogface,
Can you explain to all of us here what “we do want to finish the job in Iraq” entails? How and when is the job done?
That is the problem that 60% of the population is having right now.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:05 pm#102-
December 8th, 2005 at 4:06 pmLook moron, how much more factual evidence do you want? I WAS THERE. I SAW. I KILLED SYRIANS. Is that factual enough for you?
Let’s be calm here, people.
Those who believe that revealing truths about the war will result in US deaths have a point, but it is not THE point.
Let’s grant the possibility that they are as interested in protecting American lives as those on the Left are, and not just in stifling anti- administration dissent. Their point may well be true, that people may die if our military’s excesses and abuses of power come to light, but this cannot be used as a starting point for stifling the freedom of Americans to speak truth to power.
A free press is guaranteed by the first amendment. The press can report any items it deems fit. The standard for suppressing information in the media is truthfulness, not potential harm to individuals. The consequences of unflattering truths being revealed ought to be… accountability by those in power!
If, for example, revealing Tom Delay’s involvement in corruption does harm to him, his family, and the power of his constituency in Congress (as it no doubt has), should the press then bury the story lest some people get hurt? If our soldiers are torturing people in secret prisons around the world and telling the truth about it will expose them to the anger of world, should we then keep their actions a secret?
At what point do the grownups step forward to remind these anti-democratic Republican whiners that democracy is a serious business, and that a free press is not just for Clifford the Big Red Dog books, but for serious inquiries by investigative journalists and curious citizens. And yes, for bloggers too.
People who think that the real traitor in the Watergate affair was Deep Throat for not keeping his mouth shut, and that Oliver North was a hero because he committed felonies for a patriotic cause, don’t understand American democracy. Or worse, they think they can obey a secret array of “moral laws,” accountable to no one but themselves, which supercede the written law. This higher moral law does not need to be written or discussed. A true patriot will do anything for the homeland, they may say, and that’s all the law they need.
There is no patriotism outside the Law in America, people. The Law IS America.
These people want it both ways. They want to laud the American tradition of fearless allegiance to the truth, to justice, and to transparency of government to the citizenry – while not practicing it.
Last note: the freedom of the press is not now nor should it ever be absolute. There is in existence today a thoroughly reasonable and workable mechanism for categorizing information as TOP SECRET when it can be demonstrated that revealing said info will undermine the nation’s safety. I say this to counter the right’s claims which may follow this post that I want all of our secrets known to our “enemy” and I want us to lose this war.
If we don’t protect our constitutional civil liberties, the war is already lost.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:06 pm#106
No.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:09 pmSpudge-
December 8th, 2005 at 4:09 pmI don’t have the anwser to that question. But pulling out now before the Iraqi troops are ready to take over is inviting collapse of the regime. If that happens, all of my brothers will have died in vain. The Iraqi battalions are coming along, slowly but surely. When they are ready, we can pull out. When that will be, I honestly don’t know. I trust my generals, and they will know.
Again,
We were not told that we were going to Iraq to build damns, and get power grids back online. When did the American Military become a welfare machine? What does that have to do with saving America or Americans?
Look at the disaster in New Orleans? Imagine if we had been using the 5 or 6 billion dollars a month spent on the war and had spent it in New Orleans and Biloxi, and LA and anywhere in America, building bridges and painting shcools and helping sick people…You know what would have happened, the very people that are complaining about the very same shit not being reported in Iraq would be saying “Why are we wasting billions of dollars on poor people who won’t pick themselves up by their bootstraps”
They would be upset about American money being spent on building American cities. That is what the far right does. They spend a lot of money and energy pointing out people and things to hate…..they did in in New Orleans…they said let the goddamn people die and drown.
So, look I know how important it is to feel respected and I know that I love and respect most American soldiers…..but there is a limit to what we should be doing in other places.
It is classic empire 101 shit….We are spending this money and effort and the nation is getting pulled apart from within…..
-GSD
December 8th, 2005 at 4:10 pm*sigh*
Dogface, I’m not here to question whether or not you’ve served. However, I do question your assertion that the media is the problem here.
How can you be willing to die for the freedom of Iraqi people, yet think nothing of the current administration trying to stomp all over our freedoms here at home. I don’t know about you, but I pledge allegiance to the flag, not George W. Bush. I refuse to allow him to neutralize our free press. I’m sick of the war being used as a shield to hide behind. I demand accountability from this administration just as I would any other.
It is confusing to me that you mention liberating the Iraqi people. That is not the initial reason given for going into Iraq. We were in imminent danger remember? Are we not allowed to question an administration that has changed the rationale for war more often than women change their undies? Should we not call a lie a lie when we were told that Iraqi oil revenue would pay for this fiasco and now the WH is saying that money belongs to the Iraqi people? Should we not question an administration that would send soldiers to war without proper body armor?
I, for one am glad that the media has grown a pair. It took a little too long for my taste. An independent and free press is essential to democracy. Bushco want to silence the media so they can “market” their blunders in a favorable light. I simply cannot condone that and I hope the soldiers understand.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:14 pmAnyway, to everyone-
December 8th, 2005 at 4:15 pmIt has been an interesting debate, but it is time for me to go. Battalion formation is in 20 minutes. Just remember, don’t hate the player, hate the game. Protect our troops, and tell the media to report the truth about Iraq. Things are better there, believe. I saw it with my own eyes. Good luck to all. Except Ellie in Texas. Bitch.
And that my friend is why the War in Iraq is losing popularity at an alarming rate.
Bush came out and gave a speech with a document (National Strategy for Victory in Iraq) and didn’t give a strategy.
Let me ask you this Dogface:
What is the difference between “redeploy” and “withdrawal”?
December 8th, 2005 at 4:16 pm#109 I thought a collapse of the regime was the whole point of invading in the first place.
Also, in #95 you say “Syrian” was the recurring theme in briefings, but in #106 you say you actually saw and killed Syrians. I’m confused. How do you know a Syrian from an Iraqi in the field, or is it just what you hear in briefings?
December 8th, 2005 at 4:16 pmAlso, Dogface,
Our continued presence reinforces the notion and belief of many that our aim was to occupy and stay in Iraq. The longer we occupy and stay in Iraq the more it looks like the US planned on occupying and staying in Iraq.
At what point does a continued presence start to push more Iraqis into believing that we are just an imperial power looking to take their oil and influence their politics.
-GSD
December 8th, 2005 at 4:17 pm#115, for many, about 5 minutes after we invaded.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:18 pmthere’s no way that “dogface” is in the military. he’s a good troll, though.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:20 pmAny person in the military should be able to answer this question in a heartbeat, no research needed.
“What is the difference between “redeploy†and “withdrawalâ€?”
December 8th, 2005 at 4:21 pmStr8upnochaser -
Right on, Bro! You tell it! I’m with you 100 %
No one said democracy would be easy. If you want to make an omelette you’ve got to break some eggs. You want a democratic country, the actions of the leaders will sooner or later be revealed and people maybe are going to get hurt. But it’s in service of the American ideal of truth and justice.
In some countries people die in service of corruption.
In others they die in service of a collective identity.
in ours they die in service of truth.
At least that’s they way I learned about democracy.
Would you want it to be different?
December 8th, 2005 at 4:22 pm#112 – sorry, I feel no need to be pc with you just because you claim to be a soldier. You are fighting a lie – Our country is killing innocent life in the name of oil and you have the nerve to come in this blog and continue to lie for Bushie.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:22 pmwell put #111 !!! in a nutshell how can we push democracy for iraqi’s if at home democracy is a sham????
December 8th, 2005 at 4:22 pmDogface, no one is saying you guys haven’t made a difference. Sure, you’ve done some great things. The news media here you think are not behind you show the friendly kids, candy, and stuff. And I’m sure you see personally the schools you’ve rebuilt.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but any news man or American without a military escort outside the Green Zone is a target. After nearly three years it is still deadly to drive the 8 miles from the Airport to the Zone. As for the water and electricity: it is not even as good now as it was when Saddam’s statue was toppled in Bagdad.
As for Joe Lieberman, what the hell does that draftdodger know about war or Iraq? He visits some soldiers over there under ultra-tight security and was spoonfed some top brass bullshit? Come on. These untrained, untested “warhawks” who were put in charge in the beginning, like Brenner and Wolfowitz, set the stage for this mess. They disbanded teh Iraqi army, police, administration, and had no one in charge to help them. Think about that: Occupations by Patton and MacArthur in WWII left an infastructure to run Germany and Japan. These dipshits should have studied their history.
Murtha was a hawk and supporter, but after all this time he realizes we need to do something. Remember the Ranger Rock at Ft. Lewis: “Lead, follow, or get out of the way.” Bush and his chickenhawks have NOT accomplished their mission in Iraq or else the “Mission Accomplished” banner would have been true.
I am afraid that the status quo ain’t working. Stay the course is not an option. And if much more time goes by, it will be too little, too late.
I mean, being serious like this is giving me heartburn. I’m like the former Republican mayor of Spokane, Jim West, who just got recalled this week for promising jobs to gays and having affairs with them: in need of a beer to get the bad taste out of my mouth. Heh, heh.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:24 pm#117 – does it matter? Any honest soldier would admit that the Iraq war is illegal and that the US has committed more war crimes under Bush than any other time in our history!
December 8th, 2005 at 4:25 pmGSD – they did more than let those people drown. They destroyed the levees purposely to protect the rich at the expense of the poor. Familiar theme for this Administration.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:27 pmDogface,
You sound like a reasonable guy.
The free press is the cornerstone of democracy.
You are fighting for that cause, not for George Bush and his lies.
The Iraqi people don’t need a reason to kill us.
They have been, and will continue to kill us until we leave. Our words change nothing.
On any given day, an IED will go off, killing troops. If we publish words that you feel may “embolden” the enemy, then the only difference is that then they can say the reason they planted that particular IED was because of something Dean said.
It won’t make them any more dead, and our “shutting up” won’t make the insurgents stop planting them.
They will still plant them, and GI’s will still die, as long as we are there.
The only way to stop it, is to get the troops out of harms way, and that is what publishing the truth, will do.
Weve got your back, even if you don’t know it.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:35 pmDogface sounds like a fine man. He serves what is a noble cause (being in the military). Like many young patriots, though, he still believes the anti-left bullshit what he is spoonfed on Fox News.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but Theodore Roosevelt had it right:
“Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President or any other public official.”
December 8th, 2005 at 4:42 pmNo, you got it just right.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:44 pm#123
December 8th, 2005 at 4:45 pmIllegal?
Which part?
Don’t bother writting a thesis, just post the judicially germane link,,if you can.
Yea, I have to concur. I don’t agree with dogface on some points, but he sure is a fresh breeze to read when compared to may of the righties here.
Hope they DON”T send you to Iraq guy.
Me, I want a set timetable. Gimmie a date. I think until they (the Iraqi’s) have fate staring them in the face, they are just going to kick back and let others do their shit work. Now, I don’t equate getting the troops out to not supporting the Iraqi’s afterward. We owe them, just because our (dumbass) leaders broke the place. We still will need to help them with financial and material help. Maybe even tech help. I just don’t want american’s being used by Iraqi fools any more than by American idiots.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:46 pm#115 – GSD – Go back and study the “occupation” of Germany and Japan. You may come back to class when you know more than 20 minutes worth of history.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:51 pmWhy wouldn’t Dogface believe what he believes?
All you military posters; weren’t you kinda “brainwashed” during your basic training period? They kinda break down your sense of self and replace it with (insert Army, Navy Marines) above all else?
At least that’s what I heard….
Just thinking aloud. Don’t mean to offend anyone.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:51 pmSo, mighty aphrodite, you think we should occupy Iraq and Afgahnastan for decades. I don’t remember Bush, Powell, CHeney, Rumsfeld Rice or anyone else telling the American people we would be sticking our troops in the desert for decades.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:56 pm#129 Tactical note.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:57 pmSetting a timetable for withdrawal would allows the enemy to relax and wait until the coalition leaves, then finish HIS job, ending the Iraqi’s ability to put a viable government together. Not good.
#96 – “Did Howard Dean send America to war? Did France or Russia or Germany send our troops to war?” – GSD
December 8th, 2005 at 4:58 pm“No, Howard would have shrieked them to death. Regarding your friends, France, Russia, and Germany – OF COURSE they did not want to send in troops?? France and Germany couldn’t or wouldn’t stave off Hitler, and the three of them were under the econ sheets with Saddam while supposedly observing sanctions. You sound like a sophomore – or professor (!)- in the politcal science department at the local community college.
#130.
Germany and Japan signed a surrender treaty. I can’t recall Iraq bombing Pearl Harbor?
Go back to the Rove playbook kitten.
-GSD
December 8th, 2005 at 4:58 pmYou are confusing the military with the Marines. Remember the Army slogan that is being used right now: An Army of One.
I can’t speak for the Navy or Air Force, but in the Army it is about an individual soldier. How much one man can achive.
The Marines want you to think in a group mentality.
December 8th, 2005 at 4:59 pmhttp://tvnewslies.org/html/the_white_house_iraq_group.html
#128 – this is a start. #131 – bravo to you for saying so. The military has brainwashed their plebes and raped them of their identity. AND now, because a few brave schools stood up to the military and their anti-gay policies, they are cutting funding. Why are people afraid to criticize the military when they are wrong?
Bushie has everyone bound so tight it’s a crime to hear someone sneeze and not say GOD bless you!
December 8th, 2005 at 4:59 pm#130.
Surrender as in “we give up”.
Check out the occupation of Algeria by the French or Iraq by the British.
-GSD
Apples and Oranges.
-GSD
December 8th, 2005 at 5:00 pm“withdrawal”
Cheapshot911,
Do you know the difference between “withdrawal” and “redeployment”?
Do you know which party called for “imediate withdrawal” and which called for “imediate redeployment”?
December 8th, 2005 at 5:01 pmBTW – Why doesn’t ThinkProgress have a policy on trolls like DU? The right wing machine has someone everywhere watching us. This site is filled with them.
December 8th, 2005 at 5:03 pmDogface,
There has been overwhelming evidence that have led MANY soldiers to question our mission in IRAQ and the commander-in-chief!
I have been there and there is nothing that indicates (to me) that the MEDIA somehow places us in danger?
Was the media responsible for inferior body armor or were they noble in highlighting the fact?
Was it the media who changed the mission and ordered us to attack preemtively?
Was it the media who created the Syrian terrorists?
Was it the media who sold the US to Chnia to fund an ill-advised war?
I am a 31U and I supported MANY missions out of FOB MANHATTAN in Iraq! I was fortunate to make it back, but I can tell that I HATED BUSH every day I was there! My time is quickly coming to an end, because my retirement has been approved, and I will make sure that ALL of the NASTY Gov’t secrets come to light!
The MEDIA is not killing soldiers, it’s the PRESIDENT! And when everyone can admit that fact, then this war will be over and hopefully we can start taking care of our own!
BUSH has created a life long enemy for the US. That is the ONLY testiment that can be attributed to this IDIOT!
ETS -21 days and counting!
December 8th, 2005 at 5:03 pmAmen, Ellie. I don’t understand it…I can’t even read the right wing sites much less hang around and talk to those people.
December 8th, 2005 at 5:04 pmAlso, Aphrodite, I have been nothing but decent and respectful with my comments and yet you reply with ill-informed snark.
Are you one of those Ann Coulter Christians that believe in the doctrines of hate and venom while claiming religious piety?
What a beautful nation this would be if it were filled with Coulters and Michael Savages and yes, little Aphrodite.
-GSD
December 8th, 2005 at 5:05 pmThere is some correctness to that. The Military is of course going to push the Commander in Chiefs agenda, so of course there is some brainwashing.
What has however, always amazed me, is the troops ability to still think for themselves, and formulate their own opinions.
I remember being at Andrews the day Bill Clinton flew out for good.
In many of the bathrooms were these memos taped to the mirrors.The base was locked down, no traffic in and out, so being bored, I decided to actually read this particular memo.
It was a warning about the new Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, and it basically talked about what an “asshole” he was, and how he was going to try and change procedures and processes that have been working fine without his influence, and how it was important to stand up to him.
It amazed me how brazen this memo was, (wish I had kept a copy of it)and I have wondered why no one else has ever mentioned it. I have a feeling Andrews was not the only base to see such a memo.
No, I have never failed to be impressed at the troops capability to think independently and see through the bs that an overzealous Executive office tries to feed to them.
December 8th, 2005 at 5:09 pmThank you for the clarification, Spudge.
Guess who I heard that stuff from?
December 8th, 2005 at 5:09 pm…Marines..!
Hey SpudgeBoy.About the diff’ in military mindsets.
December 8th, 2005 at 5:15 pmI read the account of a former Chechen who’d seen action in the former Yugoslavia, and had been re-deployed to Afghanistan to teach anti-aircraft warfare to the taliban. His numerically superior unit (batch of scarecrows with guns) had attacked some US marines, killing the leader. To their dismay, the Yanks over-ran, killed many and captured the Chechen. Being a veteran of the Afghan/Russian war, he couldn’t get over how, when you kill a Russian officer, the remaining troops mill around in confusion, but THESE GUYS,,just don’t stop. The encounter with the yanks made him think that maybe they didn’t cap the real leader.
That mind-set of not faltering just because there’s no one to issue orders, but recognize the situation and DEAL with it NOW, is the psychology addressed and tuned in the “Army of one” brochures, and I guarantee it’s not just endimic to the Army.
Back into your hole, mighty. I think I saw an arab walking down your street.
December 8th, 2005 at 5:16 pmDear SpudgeMan – You are absolutely right – and I owe you an apology. You have never been vile and horrible, naive maybe, but never vulgar. I would have a tad more respect for you if you were as critical of vulgar progs as you are sarcastic conservatives.
December 8th, 2005 at 5:35 pmLooks like your social program “Kill them there instead of here” has turned out to be a flop, mighty.
6-8 months.
December 8th, 2005 at 5:42 pmDear GSD – You talk “occupation” and imply imperialism. The post – WWII occupation was about 5 years in both Japan and Germany. And if you’re “naive” enough to wait for terms of surrender to be signed – you’ll be waiting a very long time. This is a battle for the future – a WWIII – whether you realize it or not. Hope that didn’t bruise your tender feelings and sensibilitites.
December 8th, 2005 at 5:44 pmAn enemy without a country is not going to parttake in a “battle for the future”, mighty.
December 8th, 2005 at 5:51 pmOn Hardball right now Matthews is interview nathaniel flick, a former marine who served in Iraq. He’s saying the discussion back home has very little impact on the troops. They are simply focused on doing their job.
Pretty interesting. Perhaps the turdballs at townhall should interview some actual soldiers who served there instead of sticking his head up his ass.
December 8th, 2005 at 5:51 pmMightyHermaphrodite,
And europe’s occupation was startlingly peaceful and used only a fraction of the troops that were used to wage the war. What’s your point, that you’re as ignorant on history as you are on ‘law’? Oh wait, you aren’t a lawyer, a woman or a historian, you just play one on republican blogs :()
December 8th, 2005 at 5:53 pmMightyHermaphrodite,
You are the ‘guest’ who posts lies and propaganda. That’s all the vulgarity that most people can tolerate – or hadn’t you ‘conceived’ of how you were ‘perceived’?
December 8th, 2005 at 5:55 pmHey Assrolledmighty,
“vulgar progs”?
You mean like me :)
December 8th, 2005 at 6:22 pmQuotes here, W/links to historic sites.
December 8th, 2005 at 6:57 pmmighty aphrodite,
I am not critical of the progs because they don’t call me names. I don’t care what anyone’s opinion of a specific topic is. I always ask for links, because I am always willing to see things from both sides.
I agree 100% with Judd that we need more debate and less name calling schoolyard antics.
I came to this site long ago to have a political debate with consevatives, moderates and liberals. I want to learn more. I fell into the habit of attacking people, right along with others, but I am tired of that. I want to get back to the debate.
I don’t think any liberal is goin gto turn conservative and visa versa. So, we can all learn what each other thinks.
I think that the bickering between liberals and conservatives was created intentionally. I think we are all victims of a “divide and conquer” type of plan.
I have lost friends over the past five years. I no longer talk to people I have known for 20 years. That is not right.
December 8th, 2005 at 6:58 pmThe post – WWII occupation was about 5 years in both Japan and Germany.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — December 8, 2005 @ 5:44 pm
That is technically true. However, 60 years after the end of WWII, there are still US military bases in both Japan and Germany.
And if you’re “naive” enough to wait for terms of surrender to be signed – you’ll be waiting a very long time.
Your off-base reply clearly indicates you refuse to read what you are being told and insist on comparing pears and apples -as Granite already pointed out.
Iraq was a war of choice. It was not so against Japan or Germany. Iraqis did not attack the US. Japan did. Germany declared war on the US.
This is a battle for the future – a WWIII – whether you realize it or not. Hope that didn’t bruise your tender feelings and sensibilitites.
A “WWIII”? A “battle for the future”? You are getting a little apocalyptic on us.
Again, Iraq had nothing to do with any attack on the US.
December 8th, 2005 at 7:01 pmAnd just so that we are all clear, I didn’t mean anything derogitory about Marines. They need to have a group mentality to do their jobs correctly. Marines are some bad ass mother fvckers that are willing to be our first into battle troops. I had many Marines as friends when I was in the Army. I don’t have as many now, becasue Tustin Marine Corp Air Station was closed down, so all the Marines went down to Pendleton.
December 8th, 2005 at 7:01 pm#93 Ellie, all I asked you to do was provide a fact or two to support your thesis. I don’t see where you place me in the ‘faith-based’ world based on my questions…. You’ll see my arguments are always grounded in facts, not faith.
December 8th, 2005 at 7:13 pm#143 – “Are you one of those Ann Coulter Christians that believe in the doctrines of hate and venom while claiming religious piety?” – Granite State Destroyer
December 8th, 2005 at 7:13 pm*****Does your Mom know you’re up this late??? Are you one of those agnostic (intellectual word for ‘SHOW ME’) college students who want to deny free speech to Ann Coulter, David Horowitz, etc.? But to answer your question: there is only one group of people I hate – traitors and/or communists – I leave religious piety for God to sort out.
#158 adding to Gregor’s points, did the Allies take 90% of their casualties after VE and VJ day? I think not. There is almost no comparison to be made to World War 2 that I can think of…
December 8th, 2005 at 7:14 pm#150, so MA, do you think that the ‘Clash of Civilizations’ is inevitable or not? Per Sam Huntington http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/sept11/flash_civClash.html
December 8th, 2005 at 7:21 pmDo you think that moderates everywhere should simply pick sides and start their respective Crusade/Jihad/whatever?
I wonder why the occupation of Germany and Japan by the US and Allies went so well and the occupation of Iraq so badly?
December 8th, 2005 at 7:22 pm#158 – Gregrrr, please show me where you think I said or implied that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. With the paper tigers in the Progressive Movement why should anyone think they would say what they mean or mean what they say?? Progs are GREAT at “one more chance” and “shrugging off attacks”. In short, progs are GREAT at LIP SERVICE – nothing more, nothing less.
About your opinion of my assessment of WWIII – would each and every country in the world need to be attacked or in someway involved with the current battles to qualify in your learned mind as a World War? And if you don’t want to call attacks in the US, Great Britain, Spain, Germany, Phillipines, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Cyprus, Turkey, Greece Morocco, Indonesia, Bali,Kenya, Tunisia, Pakistan, Kashmir, Afghanistan, Algeria, by radical Muslims a World War – that’s your business.
December 8th, 2005 at 7:29 pmTerrytheTurtle,
Interesting link in post #163.
December 8th, 2005 at 7:29 pmHere is our issue:
Bush didn’t say we are starting WWIII. He said we are going to catch Osama bin Laden “dead or alive” Which turned into the Global War on Terrorism, then later The Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism, then back to the Global War on Terrorism.
Are we fighting WWIII?
Because tha Bush administration sure ain’t acting like we are fighting a World War.
December 8th, 2005 at 7:33 pm#157 – SpudgeMan notes “I am not critical of the progs because they don’t call me names” So if you see someone kicking another on the street – you don’t say anything because they are not kicking you?? Legal, yes.. immoral, probably!! I will agree with you about the tone – sadly, debate is rarely achieved. But we come here to debate, not to change minds – you correctly note that is not likely to happen – but some of us enjoy the exchange of ideas. There are a few who respect no ones’ opinion except their own or their echoes. But thinned skinned people shouldn’t visit this site because they have a wonderful opportunity of learning bizarre anatomy lessons and cunning yoga moves.
December 8th, 2005 at 7:42 pmI distinctly remember being told to hit the mall and go to Disneyland when this ‘War’ got going instead of ‘join up’ and ‘over there’.
December 8th, 2005 at 7:43 pmW/links to historic sites.
Comment by Cheapshot911 — December 8, 2005 @ 6:57 pm
If you are trying to compare post-invasion resistance in Iraq with the one in Germany after its surrender in WWII, then you are sorely wrong.
The idea that the post-invasion period in Germany was as bloody as Iraq is now, has long been debunked.
It all started with Condoleezza Rice’s remarks on the German werewolves who supposedly “engaged in sabotage and attacked both coalition forces and those locals cooperating with them — much like today’s Baathist and Fedayeen remnants.”
A journalist from the San Diego-Union tribune did some digging and found out the story was a hoax:
The ‘progress’ we are making in postwar Iraq
More deceptions to justify war actions
More evidence of mass deception
For other information regarding the so-called werewolves, the wikipedia is a good place to start -it has a nice explanation of the Werwolf Nazi plan.
December 8th, 2005 at 7:44 pmOh and buy another Hummer and fill it up.
December 8th, 2005 at 7:44 pmTErry asks “I wonder why the occupation of Germany and Japan by the US and Allies went so well and the occupation of Iraq so badly?”
December 8th, 2005 at 7:45 pm*****Two words – Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Terry – Why did the barbarians target the World TRADE Center? It’s the world-wide center of commerce and they hoped to kill lots of Jews. They hoped to kill many of us and cripple our economy How many priogressives hoped the economy would tank so as to politicize heart breaking “hard-luck” stories before ‘04 election?
December 8th, 2005 at 7:53 pmGregrrr, please show me where you think I said or implied that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — December 8, 2005 @ 7:29 pm
Show me where I did. I was underlining, once again, that Iraq posed no threat to the US, unlike Germany and Japan during WWII.
And if you don’t want to call attacks in the US, Great Britain, Spain, Germany, Phillipines, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Cyprus, Turkey, Greece Morocco, Indonesia, Bali,Kenya, Tunisia, Pakistan, Kashmir, Afghanistan, Algeria, by radical Muslims a World War – that’s your business.
You are being apocalyptic again -in most of these countries the fight is local, because the conditions that caused radical islam to take hold are local.
That you insist on stringing together unrelated events and give them a causal relationship with no evidence is your problem. And it is called apophenia.
December 8th, 2005 at 7:56 pmOk, since Spudge made me feel guilty, Aphrodite,
I have a question for you though.
Which Iraqi citizen, other than Saddam and a few of his top men, which Iraqi citizen deserved to die?
December 8th, 2005 at 8:05 pm#172 – Nope I don’t buy that. Neither population (especially the Germans) had much clue what had happened in Japan. I would think that a combination of exhaustion, loss of faith in the fascist cause, utter economic ruin and critically, the magnanimity in defeat that the Allies showed the defeated powers, especially Japan. Its clear to me that the Baathists think they can win. Let’s look at it from your point of view – would dropping a 10kt bomb on Fallujah or Tikrit stop the insurgency overnight? Take you time answering, that’s a toughy I know.
#173 you offer no proof/evidence of any US progressives wishing ill on the US so that they could win an election in ‘04. I would have thought the Chimp’s approval ratings in late 2001/2002 made it clear. The fact that progressives think differently about the ‘give to the rich’ rather than ‘ok so there’s a war on, let’s all sacrifice together’ policies of the GOP is meaningless. There’s no point addressing your speculation.
December 8th, 2005 at 8:06 pmQuestion number 2.
What would you do, if the US was invaded by a foriegn power, no matter how well meaning, no matter how benevolant, what would you do?
December 8th, 2005 at 8:08 pmSorry even in ‘wartime’ (my quotes because last time I looked, Congress had to declare a war), the opposition party has a right to and a duty to challenge the way the country is run, economy, war policy etc etc. Maybe you don’t like dissent?
December 8th, 2005 at 8:08 pm“I wonder why the occupation of Germany and Japan by the US and Allies went so well and the occupation of Iraq so badly?”
*****Two words – Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — December 8, 2005 @ 7:45 pm
If you are trying to imply that pure fear of American military might kept the Germans and Japanese from rebelling against, you would be wrong again.
It has already been told that sheer exhaustion of endless war, and the knowledge of being defeated nations were key in the pacific acceptance of foreign troops in both countries.
December 8th, 2005 at 8:12 pmQuestion number 3.
If the police broke into your home, and hauled a family member away with his hands tied behind his back, and a bag over his head, with no warrant, no trial, and no explanation, what would you do?
December 8th, 2005 at 8:12 pmAnswer those 3 questions, honestly, and you will begin to understand what all the huffs about.
December 8th, 2005 at 8:13 pmHow many priogressives hoped the economy would tank so as to politicize heart breaking “hard-luck†stories before ‘04 election?
Comment by mighty aphrodite — December 8, 2005 @ 7:53 pm
This is a strawman argument, barely worth this reply.
December 8th, 2005 at 8:15 pmAnd BTW Aphrodite,
I am not asking for a disertation on the morality of such things, I am just asking what YOU would do.
December 8th, 2005 at 8:16 pm““I am not critical of the progs because they don’t call me names†So if you see someone kicking another on the street – you don’t say anything because they are not kicking you?? Legal, yes.. immoral, probably!!”
Physical attacks are much different than name calling. I would stop someone from attacking somebody physcially. But, I wouldn’t stop someone from calling somebody else a name. In the same train of thought, I wouldn’t talk to somebody who calls me a name.
“But thinned skinned people shouldn’t visit this site because they have a wonderful opportunity of learning bizarre anatomy lessons and cunning yoga moves.”
That is pretty funny.
December 8th, 2005 at 8:17 pmSorry, that was not my intention. I just want to get back to people arguing back and forth and not just posting “I know you are but what am I” type stuff. And as I have stated before, I am guilty of that too.
December 8th, 2005 at 8:23 pmI will agree with you about the tone – sadly, debate is rarely achieved. But we come here to debate, not to change minds – you correctly note that is not likely to happen – but some of us enjoy the exchange of ideas. There are a few who respect no ones’ opinion except their own or their echoes.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — December 8, 2005 @ 7:42 pm
Then put your money where your mouth is: Stop fiddling with SpudgeBoy’s screen name and my own, for starters.
You don’t seem to come here to debate but to harass and annoy. I have lost count of the times you post a single dismissive comment and don’t post anything again. If you honestly want to debate, you will lose the name-calling, the playing with people’s names, and the deriding tone.
Anything other than that will lead me to safely conclude you do not want any exchange of ideas.
December 8th, 2005 at 8:26 pmGoing a bit further on the Japan/Germany versus Iraq occupation – it seems to me that Germans and Japanese, besides the complete breakdown of their fascist systems in the final days of the war, the general population worked out pretty quickly that they had more to gain by cooperation with the Allies than by resistance. So, where did the coalition go wrong? Or is the homogenous nature of the Japanese and German nations (no simmering tribalism to unleash) the major factor?
December 8th, 2005 at 8:39 pmSo, where did the coalition go wrong? Or is the homogenous nature of the Japanese and German nations (no simmering tribalism to unleash) the major factor?
Comment by TerrytheTurtle — December 8, 2005 @ 8:39 pm
I read an article explaining it -I will have to find it again and post the link.
December 8th, 2005 at 8:43 pm#174 – Gregrrr – Your argument is going nowhere – I think we will need to agree to disagree. I simply believe that Iraq is a second front in a war fighting terrorism. I am not as kind and benevolent as you and many other progs. I would have have blown Saddam to his 72 secular virgins because of his plot on Bush the Elder, and his support of suicide bombers against Israel.
December 8th, 2005 at 8:52 pm#175 – “Which Iraqi citizen, other than Saddam and a few of his top men, which Iraqi citizen deserved to die?” – worfeus
I have never said anyone any Iraqi (oother than Saddam and his henchmen and agents) DESERVED to die. Unfortunately, EVERY war has the misfortune of innocents killed. We have sanitized and reduced the term to “collateral” damage. Do innocent people die every day? In all countries? Sadly, this is a fact of life. Whether a good mom is distracted by little Johnnie in the back seat and carelessly blows through a stop sign or a drunk driver maliciously jumps behind the wheel of a car for the ride home a few short miles away, innocents are killed. In the third world an ox cart might break loose and kill a small child or observant Indians may overcrowd a bus and it is involved in a fatal accident – terrible – innocent and sadly, a fact of life.
#176 – Q#1 – You don’t have to buy it.
Q#2 – Progs in Dem party power were shi**ing themselvves w/ W’s popularity – The Big Dog was said to be pi$$ed that 9/11 didn’t happen on his watch as he is still busy legacy building – I guess WTC in ‘93 wasn’t enough…or the embassies…or Khobar Towers….or the Cole.
#180 – Why do you apply due process to terror suspects? You sound like Bill Clinton – I know that’s a compliment to you – accept it for what it is worth.
Gotta run!!!!
#189 – MA, you completely miss the point of the ‘break down the door’ scenario. You assume eveyone is guilty until proven innocent. The simple question is ‘how do you know’? You’ve never had your door broken in for no reason, other than you may look like a crook or a terrorist. I have two points:
First, the moral point – what right do you or anyone have to suspend laws simply because you think someone is a ‘bad guy’? What if you are wrong? Do you care? What if it happened to you? Fact is, there are cases everyday of mistaken ID in this so-called war – people are being tortured in foreign countries after they are rendered there by the CIA. And what do they get after they are finally released? “Sorry chum”? Without the rule-of-law, western civilization is nothing and the fanatics win.
Second, the realpolitik point – if I kick in 100 doors and ransack 100 houses a day looking for Al Zarqawi and maybe I rough up a couple of people each time and maybe I haul away the men of the house for quick poke in the rectum with a broomstick in Abu Ghraib, how many new ‘terrorists’ do I create? How many people do I convince that the US army are just a bunch of thugs who have no respect for me or my ways or any laws, not even their own? 1? 10? 50?
You simply don’t get it do you. Let me clue you in. There are 1.1 billion muslims in the world and the vast majority of them have decided in the last few years that they don’t like you and people like you very much. I’d spend a bit of time walking a mile in their shoes one time and maybe you;d have a better idea of what kind of ‘war’ you think you are in and what it will take to ‘win it’. As for me, I’m against the extremists, the muslims ones and the ones like you.
#176 – no evidence from you again, nor an answer to my argument – obviously you have no point.
December 8th, 2005 at 9:05 pmMA, just do me a favor and read this will you? Just read it – you don’t have to comment or anything. It is simply a moderate point of view from the muslim world: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/27D5268D-D1E6-401E-86FB-1B14E5BD5A3E.htm
December 8th, 2005 at 9:11 pmHow Bush Stole Christmas
December 8, 2005
First, the inspiration: on the Press Democrat, page A2, People column, principal photo shot of the First lady Laura Bush reading “How the Grinch Stole Christmas†to a group of young patients at a children hospital in Washington. Now for the article “Bush concedes ‘uneven’ progress in rebuilding Iraq†by Peter Baker spits out more platitudes from Bush along with anecdotal excuses for failure. This time Bush admits recovery and rebuilding of Iraq was hindered by “corruption, misplaced priorities and insurgent attacks.†He explains (tries, in my opinion) that his strategic errors dragged on in “fits and starts.†But all his failures and deceptions are more costly than he wants to admit or to justify; for the very foundation of this war is nothing more than one Big Fat Lie. The book Laura Bush should be reading, and before Congress, is “How George W. Bush Stole Christmas†from 2100 plus families whose children return from Iraq in coffins. And how he stole Christmas from America in worth of $277 billion and is expect to grow $100 billion more. To President Bush’s “efforts†in Iraq I said “Bah! Humbug.â€
December 8th, 2005 at 11:17 pmGregrrr – Your argument is going nowhere – I think we will need to agree to disagree. I simply believe that Iraq is a second front in a war fighting terrorism. I am not as kind and benevolent as you and many other progs. I would have have blown Saddam to his 72 secular virgins because of his plot on Bush the Elder, and his support of suicide bombers against Israel.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — December 8, 2005 @ 8:52 pm
1.- I already told you that your persistence on playing around with anyone’s screen name is a clear sign you do not want to debate but to annoy.
2.- You are entitled to your own opinions and beliefs, but not to your own facts. Iraq was invaded to make the US safe, because Hussein’s WMDs and supposed links to AlQaeda and the 9/11 attacks. I didn’t say it and never believed it, but that was what the Bush administration hinted over and over again. And now we know that those WMDs and ties to AlQaeda didn’t exist.
3.- If you think that wanting the rule of law is to be benevolent, then we have a fundamental disagreement that goes well beyond you being a self-described conservative.
4.- Hussein’s support for the suicide bombers in Israel was not a reason for the invasion. Neither was the assassination attempt on Bush Sr.
5.- Israel’s suicide bombers are an Israeli problem. The US should certainly assist, but to suggest the US invade country ‘X’ to make country ‘Y’ safe, quite frankly, sounds reckless. You are asking the government to neglect its obligation towards the American people, and their best interests. And if part of the goal was to make Israel safe then the American people certainly deserved to know.
December 8th, 2005 at 11:26 pmMAN, what do you guys have a database of cute little Goering-esque sayings like that to help you sleep at night?
I’m pushing half a century, so I don’t need “war is hard” lessons from you. If thats what passes for morality with you all I can say is better hope the judge is a little more benevolant than I would be.
Your damn skippy war is hard genius. Thats why you don’t start them unless you HAVE TO!
And those that do are what we call “WAR CRIMINALS”.
And you know what happens to war criminals, right?
Aphrodite said;
If you think that the 50,000 + rounded up in random raids and being “processed” are all “terrorists”, then you’re dumber than everything you just said.
But even with terrorists, General Grange said on Lou Dobbs tonight, it doesn’t matter, we need to be have the moral high ground, we need to be that country that acts as the example to the world.
America was the shining light, and all the world learned and followed our standards of morality.
Now people like you have squandered what people like my father and his brothers worked for in WW2, and Americans have built with our neighbors over the last century.
What took our country almost 100 years to create, was destroyed in 6 short years by this cheap hack, this vactioning dunce.
And gettin it back is gonna be a bitch.
No, you may believe it, but you can’t sell it in here.
Sorry Aphrodite, but with morally bankrupt rhetoric like that, thats about as nice as I can get.
December 8th, 2005 at 11:43 pm#193 Fine job Gregor.
December 8th, 2005 at 11:49 pmMSM lost the war in Vietnam and now they’re pissed they don’t have the same hegemony for Iraq….It has to suck to be irrelevant at the same time the entire limp-wristed world believes your right! I’d hate to be a liberal, it was embarrassing when I was but nothing like it would be now!
December 9th, 2005 at 12:06 amMark,
Sure, the vietnam soldiers were all glued to the MSM, that’s just such a rational and logical belief system you have – NOT.
You’re such a retard.
Vietnam was lost because it was unpopular from the beginning and we were an unpopular occupation. Ike refused to allow an open election in Vietnam because the communists would have won. It was downhill from there.
You’re a delusional and hysterical moron – no surprise. You are the one that should be embarrassed for being so ignorant and idiotic, but the village idiot never has any reservations for his his idiocy, and you clearly demostrate that axiom.
December 9th, 2005 at 12:12 amFYI, Mark, your homophobia is a CLEAR and RELIABLE sign of repressed homosexuality. That’s a diagnosed mental illness, you really should seek treatment for your ‘anxious masculinity’. It has clearly made you insane.
December 9th, 2005 at 12:13 amSo when a democracy starts a war and the ‘fourth estate’, charged with speaking truth to power, does exactly that and the people realize that the aforementioned war was in fact a huge mistake and unwinnable, the fault lies with the ‘fourth estate’? Watch out Marrk, your brown shirt is showing…
December 9th, 2005 at 12:23 amIt has to suck to be irrelevant at the same time the entire limp-wristed world believes your right! I’d hate to be a liberal, it was embarrassing when I was but nothing like it would be now!
Comment by Marrk Marco — December 9, 2005 @ 12:06 am
The most interesting aspect of this post is its inherent and glaring self-contradictory nature.
Let’s see: “Limp-wristed” is a pejorative meaning effeminate. It also denotes softness and weakness. Clearly Mark Marco thinks all of this is bad. Very bad.
But then Mark goes on to say it would be embarrasing to be a liberal. Since when one chooses political leanings based on what other people might think? Isn’t that, well, weak? And isn’t changing political preferences for fear of ridicule a little shallow, and limp-wristed?
December 9th, 2005 at 12:54 am#200 Gregor,
Bingo…
Your obversation is what I called being aware of the world :)
December 9th, 2005 at 1:03 amAnn Coulter = Joseph Goebbels. “Insurgents” need to be recognized for what they really are, liberation fighters(freedom fighters) who are trying to free their country from an oppressive and illegal occupation much like the French partisans in World War II.
December 9th, 2005 at 1:34 amSo, where did the coalition go wrong? Or is the homogenous nature of the Japanese and German nations (no simmering tribalism to unleash) the major factor?
Comment by TerrytheTurtle — December 8, 2005 @ 8:39 pm
I was able to locate the article I mentioned before, and found others too. In a nutshell, the main differences between the occupation of Germany and Japan at the end of WWII on the one side, and the occupation of Iraq now are:
Recognised defeat and legitimacy of the occupation. Germans and Japan knew their armies had been defeated on the battle field, and their leaders had formally surrendered. Hence the presence of foreign troops was viewed as legitimate.
Sheer exhaustion. The Germans and the Japanese alike were tired of endless conflits that had drained both nations and were eager for peace that would allow them to rebuild their societies.
Lousy planning for the occupation, and the fact that Iraq was a British colonial possession until the 1930s didn’t help either.
Looking at Germany, Japan, Iraq: A tale of three occupations
Few Parallels with Germany and Japan
Repeat: Iraq is not a modern-day Germany
Occupational hazards: myths of 1945 and U.S. Iraq policy
December 9th, 2005 at 2:23 amAll of the comments here just amaze me. Nearly all of you do not understand that the media IS part of the battlespace in our current war.
Our enemies – the terrorists, remember them? – have said that in their own memos. They love to see ABC, CBS, NBC, New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times, et al. wring their hands over the war and report the way they are doing.
No one – including O’Reilly or Ralph Peters – is asking our press to lie. But perhaps a little bit of objectivity – and including a balance of what GOOD is happening in Iraq – would be good for the country. But they don’t want good for the country because that would translate to good for Bush. So they’d rather lose the war, bring home our troops and put us at HIGHER RISK for decades to come rather than see that happen.
Is it asking too much for them to just CONSIDER what impact a story may have on our war efforts before they print it? When the insurgents pull stories from the front page of the New York Times and use them for their own propaganda efforts – with no editing required whatsoever – none of you see that as a problem?
December 9th, 2005 at 2:38 amBob,
If the press were ‘objective’, they would give these fascist retards all of the free passes they get. No WMDs? Most of the ‘insurgents’ are Iraqis fighting for their own country, and NOT foreign terrorists. If liars stopped lying like you, maybe more people would trust this administration. The high RISK comes from an administration that supports torture and oppression and illegal invasion. You and your party’s reckless disregard for international law and human decency has greatly increased terrorism. Once again you schmucks want to blame others for the ‘losing the war’, when in fact you and your idiot policies virtually assured that at the onset.
Wake up Loser Bob!
December 9th, 2005 at 2:51 amFYI Bob, those same terrorists said they wanted bush re-elected because republican policies were so useful in recruiting. Clearly your ’sources’ and ‘beliefs’ are grounded in propaganda. That makes you a fool.
December 9th, 2005 at 2:52 amIf a country needs to ‘lie’ to win a war, then a rational person would question whether the war was legitimate. Clearly this concept doesn’t ring to fascist republicans.
December 9th, 2005 at 2:54 amNo one – including O’Reilly or Ralph Peters – is asking our press to lie. But perhaps a little bit of objectivity – and including a balance of what GOOD is happening in Iraq – would be good for the country. But they don’t want good for the country because that would translate to good for Bush. So they’d rather lose the war, bring home our troops and put us at HIGHER RISK for decades to come rather than see that happen.
~~~~~~
I guesss you MISSED the Part about tax dollars CIA and RENDON propaganda use on THE PEOPLE BOB?
Cmon, Get with the PROGRAM, BOB, NO ONE WATCHES CABLE NEWS, WE DONT GET OUR INFO FROM THE MEDIA BECAUSE ITS BULLCRAP.
TIme and Time again the People here have picked it out, EVEN the CFR gurus of b-School finance, CAN you what a Disaster BUSH is, MR. Danger.
REPEAT AFTER ME BOB, CURVEBALL WAS DEBUNKED BEFORE THE WAR. say it again bob.
THE ALUMINUM Tubes were not for Enrichment. Say that BOB
The OIL didnt Pay for the WAR BOB
The Soldiers DIED BOB, Halliburton STOCK IS UP BOB
WHEN the Terrorist comes to our Borders YOU can bet the PEOPLE will rise to the Occasion, the REASON the people NEVER rose to BUSH’s OCCASION is LACK of Leadership, and LACK of a PLAN, and LACK of informing the people.
BUSH has Started an ELECTIVE War. HIS MBA and his Decision TREE has missing BRanches…
GO FIGHT for your master Bob, I for one am done with the corruption and lies, thats what you are in fact supporting BOB.
IF THIS Social Experiment, in Democracy, and KAPITALISM aka AEI Skull Duggery, With FASCIST wackos like Leo-Strauss and Wolfowitz and their FULL SPECTRUM DOMINANCE, YOU ARE NOT an AMERICAN..
December 9th, 2005 at 2:57 am#
Terrorists don’t kill people, the liberal media kills people
Comment by Wayne La Pierre — December 8, 2005 @ 2:28 pm
What do you mean by Terrorist Wayne? Im trying to understand your mindset, The Liberal Media Parrotted Bush speeches 24/7 for Months and Months, how did that Kill the Troops?
Oh Yeah, thats Right, you Watch TV…I Dont
..So Tell me Wayne.
Do you also have one of these Rush Limbaugh Asshatian Truth Detectors?
What is a Truth Detector Wayne?
Why does RUSH think he has one in his Head?
I find this Strange Wayne.
he must be speaking about a Foil hat, I mean if it can detect truth and all, and judge people, its Gotta Be Metal, Right?
Define Liberal for me while your at it La Pewierre.
December 9th, 2005 at 3:14 amIN YOUR words, not anti-christian Rushs mK?
Once the liberal media (you know it is) stop’s putting this country down and only givng us bad new’s and start’s being at least somewhat pro-American and all of the brain dead people who believe all of the nonsense they feed us, then maybe we have a chance to win this thing, but not with everyone blaming big bad America. This is the best country on the planet and without America doing what is right and just then you would probaly all be speaking german or Arabic, or most likely dead. Wake up people!!!
December 9th, 2005 at 11:26 amIf a country needs to ‘lie’ to win a war, then a rational person would question whether the war was legitimate. Clearly this concept doesn’t ring to fascist republicans.
Ryan
Did you know that during WWII, FDR had an official “office of censorship”? He had the power to control information given to the media (among others) … this included the ability to forbid unauthorized photographs, stories, sketches, or maps, and gave him the authority to define which types of military information needed security protection.
Not surprisingly J. Edgar Hoover originally headed up this mandate, using the military to censor cable and postal services … he then turned the job over to the new censorship agency (civilian run) who specifically watched the press corp.
Very suprisingly, this civilian run agency asked the press to willfully comply … and they did. The voluntary censorship worked. The Justice Department, who had the power to prosecute offenders under the provisions of the 1918 Espionage Act, never had to.
Now … compare that to the recently released news about the “secret prisons” (among other recently released news) … filter that information with what I just wrote and tell me if you think it was appropriate for ABC to act in the manner they did. To be fair, maybe you still do.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:40 amI do not believe this is true, but let’s just concede (for the sake of argument) that AP somehow caused soldiers to die by doing their reporting. Again, that’s silly, but let’s just assume that for the sake of argument. Ultimately, this is a moot point because even if that is true, Bush is still reponsible for those, and ALL of the other casualties of the war. So even if we assign a small amount of blame to AP, Bush still gets the rest since he sent them to war in the first place. Now, again, I don’t believe for a single second AP is to blame, but even if they were, TownHall is just passing the buck.
December 9th, 2005 at 12:31 pmWhile most americans are now against the Iraq “war”, they are acutely aware that the war on terrorism exists (anf they wish it to be waged effectively) … those outed secret prisons certainly had prisoners from Iraq, but they also had other jihadists captured elsewhere …
When assigning Bush the blame here, I think you’re referencing the Iraq “war” but it’s important to remember the big picture as well … that’s why the ABC thing is potentially dangerous.
We can all say that Iraq is totally fubar right now, but that doesn’t change the war on terror and how we must confront it … 9/11, Cole, Embassy bombings happened way before Iraq … it’s a good recruiting tool for the jihadists, but they were looking to “end” us way before.
December 9th, 2005 at 12:49 pm“You simply don’t get it do you. Let me clue you in. There are 1.1 billion muslims in the world and the vast majority of them have decided in the last few years that they don’t like you and people like you very much.” – Terry
December 9th, 2005 at 1:59 pm****Thanks, Terry, for your benevolent and magnanimous information “sharing”. Hard as this is for you to understand, I simply don’t agree with you. Not agreeing with YOU is not a flaw in intelligence OR experience – it IS a difference of perspective. And while those 1.1 billion Muslims have decided they don’t like me (”and people like” me) they have NEVER, nor will they EVER like “people like you”. That may be enormously distressing to you – but I have a hunch NOTHING you do (or aplogize for) will make them “like” you. I would be delighted with a mutual respect system – but I have come to realize that the radicals respect no one who disagrees with them. Come to think of it – maybe progs DO have something in common with radical Muslims.
random thought…it we set a time table for one year from today, causing the terrorists to sit back and relax and wait…that gives us an entire year to build up the Iraqi army, rebuild the infrastructure, win the hearts and minds.
Jeez.
December 9th, 2005 at 2:06 pmWithout being shot at, I might add.
December 9th, 2005 at 2:07 pmMA, the policies that you support are creating the radicals. Creating them out of the moderates who would probably prefer the same kinds of basic valuies that this country was founded upon, but are denied them by the policies you advocate. NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE RADICAL – but if it continues as it has the last few years, they will be, and frankly, I don’t wnat to be lumped in with you lot.
December 9th, 2005 at 2:51 pmTerry – I DID NOT say all Muslims were radicals – You told me 1.1 billion people hated me – and those like me- tell me SOMETHING NEW!!!!
December 9th, 2005 at 3:41 pmAha, soo what is the difference between a muslim and a radical muslim? Are they born radical, or raised radical or does some epiphany happen to them to turn them radical? You can cheat on the last one, if you want – I gave you a link on post #81 I think that might help with the London bombers…
And how many Iraqi insurgents are there and how many have been killed? And how many ‘collateral damage’ dead Iraqis are there?
December 9th, 2005 at 3:48 pm#218 – oh and they all didn’t hate you the day before 9-11 and not the day after either (even the Iranians) (although it was obvious that some did). However, you can visit a handful of polls of the Arab/muslim world before and after 9-11 and the Iraq invasion and get some idea of how the battle to win the support of muslims everywhere is going. It is not going well.
December 9th, 2005 at 3:53 pmTerry – Terry – please tell me more about how much we have in common with moderate Muslims?? (Besides food water and some education for some women.) P.S. From all of your travels, were those Muslims passing out candy in the streets after 9/11: moderates or radicals?
December 9th, 2005 at 4:42 pmLet’s see: between 1999 and 2002, the image of the US goes up in Nigeria, Russia, Ukraine and Uzbekistan (and France?). Worrying numbers coming in all over South America and Turkey, Pakistan and Europe. http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=165
And here’s the 2004 numbers… http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=206
“Even in Turkey, where bin Laden is highly unpopular, as many as 31% say that suicide attacks against Americans and other Westerners in Iraq are justifiable. Majorities in all four Muslim nations surveyed doubt the sincerity of the war on terrorism. Instead, most say it is an effort to control Mideast oil and to dominate the world. “
December 9th, 2005 at 4:48 pmOK then let’s try Turkey: a democratic, secularly governed country of 70 million Muslims with a handful of orthdox Christians and a smattering of Jews.
(1) democracy or the yearning for legitimate representative government by the people by a rule of law applied to all equally
(2) free trade – a desire to join the EU and participate in the world’s largest free trade zone
(3) realistic approach to Israel-Palenstine question – working with Israel in economic and regional security issues instead of ‘wipe off the map’ extremism per the Iranian president.
(4) freedom of religion – orthodox Christians at least seem perfectly acceptable in Turkey and Lebanon.
(5) staunch US military ally in the Cold War and Gulf War 1 (until Paul Wolfowitz called on the Turkish Army to ignore the government and let the US invade Iraq from Turkey in 2003).
Iran could have been another Turkey, but you people had to screw it up in 1953.
See my other comment #222 for how moderate Turks have changed their opinion of the US since the Iraq invasion (not 9-11). If you look at the 9-11 event and then the Iraq invasion the reversal in opinion of the US in most muslim nations is disturbing.
December 9th, 2005 at 4:58 pmForgot to add: Turkey: world’s second (Pakistan was first) Muslim nation run by a woman. Beat you lot by at least 20 years already. And don’t give me the unequal rights for women story – when in your country 28% (IRI is in this group, I think) won’t elect a woman no matter what she thinks or can do.
December 9th, 2005 at 5:01 pmYou know ‘democracy and freedom’ don’t mean ‘do whatever the US wants’.
December 9th, 2005 at 5:02 pmShall we talk about Malaysia now? They are a pretty level-headed lot. You’ll feel safer on the streets of KL than in IRIs neighborhood.
December 9th, 2005 at 5:28 pm“You know ‘democracy and freedom’ don’t mean ‘do whatever the US wants’.”
Comment by TerrytheTurtle — December 9, 2005 @ 5:02 pm
Terry – you seem to (erroneously) “feel” the US is an evil entity. You might be surprised that while we (as a government and people) have done some despicable things, we are a GOOD and CARING country. We try to live and let live – we have wide varieties of debate and argument, we have liberated tens of millions of people in the last 100 years, etc, etc, etc.
I believe the last two centuries have shown the superiority of Western culture generally and American culture specifically. At one time Eastern culture was more greatly advanced, however, everything is cyclical. Sadly, Muslim culture has not made strides in art, literature, architecture, mathematics and science for over 500 years. That might be a reason Islam is at a loggerhead with modernity.
December 9th, 2005 at 5:28 pmI’ve been to Kuala Lampur – dirty!!!! except for little clean pockets(It reminded me of an Asian Tijuana) – I prefer Singapore.
December 9th, 2005 at 5:31 pm#227, its funny because that’s what the British said in 1901, with pink countries all over the globe and all the while they were imprisoning the Boers in concentration camps and denying the Irish Home Rule. Look what happened to them. The US is not an evil entity the same as Imperial Britain was not, but the myth of American Exceptionalism is fading rapidly, because the principles this country was founded upon as outlined in the DOI and in the writings of Thomas Paine are apparently no longer applicable to its relations with the rest of the world. That’s what the British walked away from in South Africa, Ireland and India – their liberal democratic values. And they lost their empire (for that’s what it truly was by then) as a result. The US is going the same way.
December 9th, 2005 at 5:47 pm#182 – GREGOR – Are you as whiny as your posts indicate – or is your whininess amplified because you are in desperate need of a sense of humour?? Tell you what – if I irritate you THAT much just ignore me – it’s easy to ignore you!!
December 9th, 2005 at 8:45 pm~~~MaD
it IS a difference of perspective. And while those 1.1 billion Muslims have decided they don’t like me (â€and people like†me) they have NEVER, nor will they EVER like “people like youâ€. That may be enormously distressing to you – but I have a hunch NOTHING you do (or aplogize for) will make them “like†you. I would be delighted with a mutual respect system – but I have come to realize that the radicals respect no one who disagrees with them. Come to think of it – maybe progs DO have something in common with radical Muslims.
ONCE again YOU contort YOURSELF, with such Eloquence and rapidity, I might add.
Now YOU know that 1.1 Billion Muslims Hate YOU..
WOW and WOW and WOW..
YOU Must Be Uri Geller, or One o them Tin Heads Like RUsh
Manne Coulter ALSO makes Such Grandiose Claims AS TO KNOW how ‘everyone’ thinks and the Cause of all the problems of the World. Now Perhaps I missed something, being a poor simple fool, But Lawyers are Taught Law correct?
And you I think Said were An Economist?
And they Taught YOU that 1.1 billion Muslims ‘Hate’ you?
Tragic, Comedy.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:19 pmMA, simple question for you: do you believe that the Declaration of Independence applies to every man, woman and child on the planet? Yes or no?
December 9th, 2005 at 11:36 pmAJ, sorry, it was my assertion that the 1.1 billion muslims ‘don’t like you’. MA is paraphrasing. However, she seesm to think that alienating 20% of the planet is not that big of a deal. Last time I looked, 5 strong young arabs can clean the clock of one designer western punk any day. Reason: they want to win more….
December 9th, 2005 at 11:39 pmI would be delighted with a mutual respect system – but I have come to realize that the radicals respect no one who disagrees with them. Mighty Aphrodite
I have decided I don’t really like you. Not just because of your offensive disregard for facts, or even your ugly isolationsist politics, but I would say it is mostly because of the weak tactics in which you use to “debate” people here. You never try to give clear answers to even the simplest of questions, and you spew hypocritical rhetoric with the best of them ” I don’t hate anybody except traitors and communists.” You hate them because they have a different political belief than you? Do communists scare you and make it hard for you to sleep? Are they dark and have big ears?
You are actually worse than Ann Coulter, Ann Coulter stop pretending to discuss things reasonably a long time ago.
December 10th, 2005 at 12:28 pmGREGOR – Are you as whiny as your posts indicate – or is your whininess amplified because you are in desperate need of a sense of humour?? Tell you what – if I irritate you THAT much just ignore me – it’s easy to ignore you!!
Comment by mighty aphrodite — December 9, 2005 @ 8:45 pm
Interesting you should choose to label “whiny” the pointing out how you have stated to want a respectful debate, and immediately proceeded to deflect by using strawman arguments, and change the subject by launching ad hominem attacks -like you did in the post I quoted and thus avoiding a debate.
I am ready to debate you on WWII history, the occupations of Germany and Japan, or you can try to stay on topic for a change and discuss whether or not AP “caused soldiers to lose their lives”.
December 10th, 2005 at 3:32 pmIf the government of a democratic country wants to go to war, they should accept as a given that a free media is going to question their actions. When it happens, playing the old patriotism card makes you look undemocratic, or intolerant of other opinions or a fool—most likely all three.
If the government of a democratic country wants to go to war, they must factor the invitable dissent into their decision. If their cause is not popular enough to overcome dissent, they will not be able to maintain the war. This the Bushies clearly did not understand, so in addition to looking like undemocratic fools, they also appear to be inept planners who never understood how reality operates.
December 11th, 2005 at 1:33 amIf the government of a democratic country wants to go to war, they should accept as a given that a free media is going to question their actions. When it happens, playing the old patriotism card makes you look undemocratic—intolerant of other opinions.
If the government of a democratic country wants to go to war, they must factor the invitable dissent into their decision. If their cause is not popular enough to overcome dissent, they will not be able to maintain the war. This the Bushies clearly did not understand, so in addition to looking like undemocratic fools, they also appear to be inept planners who never understood how reality operates.
December 11th, 2005 at 1:36 amFirst, Don’t expect Mighty Aphrodite to stay on subject; she (or he?) is a strange creature, seemingly able to think and use the English language, probably with a good education, and yet somehow so unable to use the power of the language or even to go from one logical step to the next. Go figure, how does she see the lies, deceptions and complete incompetence of this administration and not be able to actually see anything? wait, how many Mighty A’s are there in America?…How did George Bush become President?
Back on subject, if the media tells the truth, the insurgents (I think one can hardly call them terrorists, because they try to kill soldiers who are trying to kill them) will try harder, but if the media says they are losing and all Americans know they are losing, they will quit? Ha, that’s so funny, they can’t look out their window and see for themselves, they have to read US newspapers to decide what to do?
But the funniest line is “Terrorists may have been given the false hope that all is not lost for them. …” If its a false hope, what are you worried about you dickhead?
December 11th, 2005 at 10:00 amAnd for all the soldiers like Dogface who just want this to be over so they can go home, I say go home. Just go home, find a way and leave. Become gay, become mentally unstable, become unfit for duty,…do whatever. Don’t believe your Generals when they tell you they have a plan, don’t be fooled into thinking you are doing something noble, just stop shooting at people you don’t know and have nothing against,wish them luck, tell them we will come back if we are invited, and go home!
December 11th, 2005 at 10:19 amdisneyland coupons
I found your post comments while searching Google. Very relevant especially as this is not an issue which a lot of peaople are conversant with.
March 16th, 2008 at 7:25 pmAsian Asian Schoolgirl Asian Porn Stars
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 17th, 2008 at 4:26 pmGay Sex Gay Teen Gay Men Having Sex
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 17th, 2008 at 10:03 pmhaifa wehbi naked
Man i just love your blog, keep the cool posts comin..
March 17th, 2008 at 10:15 pmJack
Your site is one of my favorites seen around blog explosion. Keep up the good work.I enjoy reading your blog. It is great to find someone who can find the fun things in life!
March 18th, 2008 at 12:07 amChubby Grannies Chubby Blonde Mature Chubby Mature Thumbs
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 19th, 2008 at 4:50 amChubby Grannies Mature Chubby Women Mature Lesbians Blonde Chubby Bbw Fat
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 19th, 2008 at 4:36 pmChildren\’s Party Planners
I enjoyed reading your blog. What a great thing it is to be able to share information like this on the Internet.
March 20th, 2008 at 4:33 amRetirement Village Floor Plan
Your blog makes very interesting reading. I’m sure others will think so too I look forward to reading their comments.
March 20th, 2008 at 12:37 pmtraffic swarm
Thanks for that, you nailed it.
March 23rd, 2008 at 12:22 pmChubby Grannies Chubby Granny Masturbate Pussy Big Tit Chubby Grannys
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 23rd, 2008 at 2:13 pmYoung Girls Young Girl Models Young Puffy Nipple
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 25th, 2008 at 4:28 ambathrooms cheap metal
Nice Post… do you know what is the first? Maybe You can se My Post Here
March 27th, 2008 at 9:18 amwoman lift weight clip art…
So just what are some of these ingredients? Alpha-lactalbumin has a protein efficiency ratio of 4. Whey concentrate powders are quit…
December 1st, 2008 at 2:29 am