Rumsfeld Lies About Pre-War Predictions: “You Can Take That To The Bank”
Rumsfeld Lies About Pre-War Predictions: “You Can Take That To The Bank”
Yesterday on PBS’ Newshour, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld said no administration official made any predictions about the length or cost of the war in Iraq:
I was very careful. I never predicted any number of deaths or the cost or the length because I’ve looked at a lot of wars, and anyone who tries to do that is going to find themselves wrong, flat wrong…I don’t know anybody who had any reasonable expectations about the number or the length of the war or the cost of the war. I just don’t — no one I know went out and said these are how those three metrics ought to be considered. And you can take it to the bank.
The truth is, Rumsfeld and other top administration officials made predictions on all three metrics. You can take that to the bank –
Length:
Rumsfeld, 2/7/03: “It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months.”
Cheney, 3/16/03: “I think it will go relatively quickly, . . . (in) weeks rather than months“
Cost:
Daniels, 12/30/02: “The administration’s top budget [Mitch Daniels] official estimated today that the cost of a war with Iraq could be in the range of $50 billion to $60 billion… Mr. Daniels declined to explain how budget officials had reached the $50 billion to $60 billion range for war costs…” [New York Times, 12/31/02]
Casualties:
Q: If your analysis is not correct, and we’re not treated as liberators, but as conquerors, and the Iraqis begin to resist, particularly in Baghdad, do you think the American people are prepared for a long, costly, and bloody battle with significant American casualties?
Cheney: Well, I don’t think it’s likely to unfold that way, Tim, because I really do believe that we will be greeted as liberators. [Meet the Press, 3/16/03]
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And the american people are just supposed to wave these statements off?
I don’t know how clearer I can make this: THIS WAS A WAR OF CHOICE, A PREEMPTIVE WAR.
Unfortunately, the Clinton’s, Kerry’s and the Lieberman’s are busy worrying about not appearing soft on national security instead saying the above. Feingold and Murtha are the only one’s who see this for what it is.
December 9th, 2005 at 10:51 amRumsfeld really does seem to have lost his marbles
December 9th, 2005 at 10:54 amto make that claim.
Although changing history in the book “1984″
was done this rapidly, and Orwell makes a good
case for how people can fool themselves (Take your
average Fox news viewer for a current example),
too many people remember clearly the claims that
were made in the run up.
Orwell may have been wrong about one thing:
Paper can be destroyed and re-written, but multiple
copies of stuff on the web is tough to find and change.
Should a man keep his job who can’t remember what he said wrt taking this country to war? It’s obvious he couldn’t care less about the truth.
IN Bushworld, the answer is “You’re doing a heckuva job, Rummy.”
December 9th, 2005 at 11:01 amI love a story about how GW,DICK, and DONNIE got caught in another MISCOMMUNCATION (LIE)- but I have to ask….where were all the rest of the people with brains when voters had the chance to vote? It sucks feeling like I’m the only one that had the sense to vote for a Democrat that would do less harm. (Yes - I am a disenfranchised democrat.)
That’s where our power lies. Vote. Vote! VOTE! Goddammit.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:03 amMaybe our brothers and sisters can come home and we can avoid another 4 years of people regretting their choices.
I think the thing that bothers me the most about the SCLM, is that time after time the Administration comes out with this ‘rewriting of history’ (thanks Dick) and yet the SCLM almost never calls them out on it. If it was any of the regulars on this board sitting opposite Rummy, then we’d hear a quick ‘Now hold on Mr Rumsfeld’ followed by a 30 second query on Google and then ‘So explain to us then, why on this date you said…’. My grandma could do a better job of interviewing than this lot, and she’s been dead since 1983.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:03 amWhen will we see a journalist come prepared for an interview, and debunk false claims to his FACE? Like they do on most British interviews? Will that day ever come?
December 9th, 2005 at 11:06 am“Take that to the bank”, hmmm now who used to say that?
Oh yea, it was another murderer, Berretta, aka, Robert Blake.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:10 amWe’ve reached the tipping point where the admin can make statements like this knowing that the now conservative media (or at least those afraid of being labelled “liberal”) will pick them up and run them unchallenged. Truth, as we used to know it, doesn’t really matter.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:11 amWell let’s assume for a minute that Rummy is telling the truth(I know,I know but bear with me). Doesn’t that then beg the question of why in the hell no one in the administration (i.e.his boss) asked for them?
Rummy doesn’t know it but he just hung his boss out to dry with that statement.
So tell us Rummy, r u lying or is your boss so stupid that he ran a war without asking about the risks or costs associated with it?
December 9th, 2005 at 11:13 am#7
December 9th, 2005 at 11:13 amSo true, so true [sigh]. And to think, the News Hour is considered to be one of the best/most-reputable television news shows in the US. Our current slate of millionaire news personalities and pundits seem to never do their homework.
They are BOTH lying.
Rumsbutt basically wrote a check with his mouth that his brain couldn’t cash.
So Bush co-signed the check.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:15 amBread and Circuses. the US has become profoundly ” dumbded down. ” who
December 9th, 2005 at 11:15 amneeds to remember facts about the war, when you you have your brain filled
with American Idol and Fear Factor. it worked to keep the ancient Romans
in line, and it’s working on us. there are no serious investigative reporters. cable news? a lot of hair spray, glossy lips, and empty suits.
Can we impeach these b*****ds now? Please???
December 9th, 2005 at 11:15 amLook up Wolfowitz’s comments and predictions on the Iraq War. He is the main architect of this mess.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:16 amwhat disturbs me the most isn’t even the lying, it’s the fact that it’s done consistently and without consequences by EVERY member of the bush administration… as long as they keep getting away with it and there are no repercussions, why should they stop…?
http://takeitpersonally.blogspot.com/
December 9th, 2005 at 11:16 amSuicide bombings aren’t lies. Executions aren’t lies. Tortures aren’t lies.
The war has cost the US much more than money can buy.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:17 amDoes “I really do believe” exonerate him, in that he offered the information as his opinion rather than a fact?
Rummy may consider himself technically correct by pointing out that he said he “doubted” the war would last six months. The next, unsaid though logically implied, sentence is, “For all I know, it could be six years, or sixteen, or sixty years - but I doubt it.”
Did he hedge enough to give him and his troglodyte supporters an “out”? Can he wriggle out of this by saying “I was sincere at the time”?
I am reminded of the old saying regarding the pavement on the road to Hell.
Down with DC Teflon. This must be made to stick - not only on Rumsfeld’s reputation and place in history, but in the consciousness of the US populace as well.
Anyone out there in the Northeast enjoying this snow as much as I? Sure is pretty!
Peace to you!
December 9th, 2005 at 11:19 amAnyone catch Kerry calling for him to resign on Imus this am?
December 9th, 2005 at 11:21 amRummy wouldn’t know the truth if it popped a cap in his ass. You can take that to the bank.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:22 amGTL,
Dodged that snow bullet.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:23 amOn the rain side of that storm here on Cape Cod.
Guys, can we read those comments any more out of context … please
Length
The original battle to overthrow Saddam did last about this long … the Iraqi people govern themselves now. Insurgents are running amock, but the entire point was to unseat Saddam. This admin. was stupid for not anticipating inlfows of jihadists …
Cost
Of the three points, this is Think Progress’ best by far (against Rumsfeld’s comments). But, they HAVE to ask Congress for a certain amount of money … that’s easy to see. They have to have an original budget … no one ever said that that’s all they’d need, but one can’t start a “war” without budgeting for it. TPs point would be stronger here of Rummy himself said this …
Casualties
Where in Cheney’s quote does he estimate losses … NOW he looks dead wrong about the liberator thing (mostly … remember back when the people toppled that Saddam statue and were cheering … that clearly resembled cheering us as liberators) …
This admin. didn’t get the whole war wrong … they got the aftermath horribly wrong … a stronger show of force after Saddam fell would’ve been far more effective.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:23 amJews were Free and Chose to Crucified Jesus.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:27 amChose Barabus over Jesus. Jews Hated Jesus.
And Jesus loved Lazarus. The Beggar.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:28 amDon’t forget this gem: 03/27/2003
Wolfowitz again tells Congress that oil should pay for Iraq’s reconstruction. “The oil revenues of that country could bring between $50 and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years. Now, there are a lot of claims on that money, but… We are dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction and relatively soon.â€
It’s a shame he got fired, I mean promoted to world bank.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:28 amMaybe Rumsfeld never met either Dick Cheney or Mitch Daniels. After all, he said he does not know anyone who made such forecasts. Then again - he made such a forecast. Rumsfeld does not even know himself?
December 9th, 2005 at 11:32 amTHIS WAS A WAR OF CHOICE, A PREEMPTIVE WAR.
It was worse than pre-emptive: it was a preventive war, and thus a war of aggression. A fine, nuanced distinction perhaps, but I think an important one.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:33 amThe key to his comment is this phrase: “I don’t know anybody who had any reasonable expectations.”
December 9th, 2005 at 11:40 amGeoMetro,
“the entire point was to unseat Saddam.”
No, the entire point was to install a [western style] democracy in a country with a people who do not see westernization as ‘all that’.
Leaving aside for the moment whether or not we should have gone into Iraq in the first place, I really think this administration’s biggest mistake was believing their own propaganda that we would be “greeted as liberators”. All the crap post-war (non)planning eminates from that one belief.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:41 am#22…. It was the American Army which toppled the statue of Saddam as a publicity stunt. This is a publicity war as much as a real conflict. If the evidence for war was so clear cut, why has bushco spent so much energy on selling it? Saddam posed no threat to the USA thus the need to sell the war as the lowest possible cost.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:43 amThese guys are like pre-schoolers taking a dump in full view of everyone and then going on to deny it was them that did it.
Those who keep cheerleading these dumbasses are obviously mentally impaired. (hmmmmmm… now THAT would be an interesting study, repug IQ vs dem IQ. No prizes for guessing the outcome)
December 9th, 2005 at 11:43 amSo true, so true [sigh]. And to think, the News Hour is considered to be one of the best/most-reputable television news shows in the US. Our current slate of millionaire news personalities and pundits seem to never do their homework.
That was before the CPB was corrupted and destroyed by Bush’s minions.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:44 amAnd didn’t Wolfowicz or Pearl claim that it would cost no more than a billion dollars and that Iraqi oil would pay for reconstruction?
December 9th, 2005 at 11:44 amI really think this administration’s biggest mistake was believing their own propaganda that we would be “greeted as liberatorsâ€. All the crap post-war (non)planning eminates from that one belief.
I agree to a point … as I’ve said earlier, when the Iraqi people were tearing down the statues and posters of Saddam it did indeed look like a “liberator” moment. The influx of both idealogy and jihadists has been the cause of the unrest … the majority in Iraq (I know some Iraqis are assisting, but they are of the same ilk as the “influxers”) could have been stabilized had we been prepared to stop the radicals from neighboring regions.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:46 amIt was the American Army which toppled the statue of Saddam as a publicity stunt. This is a publicity war as much as a real conflict.
Then there sure were a lot of “American soldiers” dressed like Iraqis dancing around and cheering …
Maybe we tore it down … maybe they asked us to. The point is, there was elation in the streets that day (and then it stopped because people were getting blown up).
December 9th, 2005 at 11:48 amTHAT would be an interesting study, repug IQ vs dem IQ. No prizes for guessing the outcome
Seeing as political leanings are much more about nuture than nature (experiences vs. intellect), I’d be surprised if it wasn’t about even (notice I didn’t say Repubs are way smarter).
December 9th, 2005 at 11:51 amThis is WAY off topic but if Overstock.com plays that freaking commercial about the “big O” once more, I’m gonna vomit.
Sorry, had to vent.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:52 am#35
The Americans were in the process of pulling down the statue. One of the military PR people saw an opportunity for a photo and made them stop in the middle.
They then went and rounded up Iraqis to fill the street and then went and got press.
Then they proceeded to pull the statue down.
The whole thing was staged bullsh!t.
December 9th, 2005 at 12:00 pmI’m all for impeachment too !
December 9th, 2005 at 12:05 pmSince Israel has not signed the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) either, they freely make various types of nuclear weapons such as neutron bombs, nuclear landmines and nuclear armed missiles for their submarines and F-16s. They are experts in making micro nuclear devices (micro nuclear devices only emit alpha radiation that is invisible to standard geiger counters) which can simulate a terrorist bomb (Mossad loves them). It has also been reported Israel possesses hydrogen bombs, the most devastating weapon on the planet.
December 9th, 2005 at 12:07 pmsarcasm-impaired ASSOCIATION
41 … Yeah … got it … I read that post already in the other comments sections … chill out already. Besides, afterthought (makes him/her sound sorta like a superhero) already answered you on that one.
December 9th, 2005 at 12:26 pmHitler preempts Poland - 1939
Bush preempts Iraq - 2003
Both are seen as wrong. Think about it.
December 9th, 2005 at 12:27 pmRumsfeld is a joke, a national disgrace and a pat
Donald Rumsfeld is a disgrace. He has no integrity. He has no shame. He has no credibility.
Not only has he failed miserably at the execution of the War in Iraq, he has been farcical in his rhetoric and unabashedly misleading in his statements abo…
December 9th, 2005 at 12:27 pmYeahRight, it’s not about IQ, IMO. That kind of attitude is what alienates so many on the other side. (I can’t bring myself to call it the “right side”, since I think they’re wrong!)
I have an uncle and a co-worker who are both cheerleaders for Bush (last I checked). They’re both very intelligent people - and I’m still trying to figure out in my head why they still support him.
The best I can come up with is that it’s a willing suspension of rationality. We on the left naively think that if we just put the facts in front of them, GOP supporters will say “Oh, Wow, you’re right, these guys are crimimals.” They *should*, but most of them won’t. They seemed to have put dogma ahead of truth. My freshman psych course talked about cognitive dissonance - I think that’s also a big part of it. They’ve built this entire world model up, with Bush as a heroic Churchillian figure. They don’t want to admit that they were fooled. Many con artists use this natural reluctance to admit being taken in as a way to avoid getting caught. Why should it be so different with the GOP.
There are an increasing number of moderate Republicans that are starting to wake up, but not enough and too late. And they’re pissed at the GOP for different reasons that we are.
We *really* need to reach out to independants and the few Republicans that *will* listen. We may not be able to reach them on Iraq, unless we take the Murtha approach, nicely focussed on “the military has done all it can”.
We can reach them on economic issues: link together fiscal irresponsibility, program cuts for the poor, and tax cuts for the rich.
We can reach them by attacking the defining issue of the GOP: domestic security. Katrina showed us how exposed we still are, and how badly prepared the government is. Recent comments by the 9/11 co-chairs showed us how little has been done since 9/11.
This was what got Bush re-elected! Use it against him.
December 9th, 2005 at 12:40 pmThat’s not to say that we ignore how we got into Iraq, but the people we need to reach to get back into power aren’t ready to deal with it yet.
Is anyone else just sick to their stomach at this administrations brazeness to lie? What has given them the security to feel perfectly fine to lie about things that we have them on video saying? I don’t get it. And neither does the DNC, cuz they just sit around and let entities such as thinkprogress.org call the liars on their lies.
December 9th, 2005 at 12:43 pmWhy doesn’t the DNC issue a DAILY corrections sheet, pointing out the lies of the day?
“Seeing as political leanings are much more about nuture than nature (experiences vs. intellect), I’d be surprised if it wasn’t about even (notice I didn’t say Repubs are way smarter).
Comment by Giacomo”
They’ve done surveys, you aren’t. Democrats tend to be better educated and smarter.
My favorite was the oreilly vs. dailyshow rant which showed that those who watched the dailyshow were significantly better educated than those who watch oreilly.
My own anecdotal experience (you’re a great example) is that republicans don’t tend to be either smart or knowledgeable, but ALWAYS opinionated.
December 9th, 2005 at 12:46 pmMaybe we tore it down … maybe they asked us to. The point is, there was elation in the streets that day
You believed that minstrel show?
Firdos Square was sealed off by American troops, and they let in a couple hundred members of the private army of one of the neocons’ pet exiles as extras in a propaganda showcase to dance around for the cameras.
The statue-toppling was about as real as pro-wrestling. About as spontaneous as the under-orders-to-cheer US military crowds which are the only non-hand-picked crowds Bush will appear with any more.
(notice I didn’t say Repubs are way smarter).
Beacuse you can’t. Rethugs may individually have the same average IQ as the general population, but their gullibility toward infantile flag-waving/Jeebus rhetoric and willingness to endlessly swallow fibs and make excuses in the Age of Bush makes their collective actions dumber than a box of rocks.
December 9th, 2005 at 12:51 pmDoyle,
The daily show had a great clip that showed everyone around the square’s faces, and pointed arrow at each member of chalabi’s posse and named them. They were all living in america, and flown by american taxpayer expenses to put on that little performance for all of us.
Republicans will believe any crap without checking it factually, as long as it fits their preconceptions. As was demostrated by that ridiculous comment you debunked. How an idiot still believes that in light of it being debunked multiple times is just sad… Republicans are so pathetic.
December 9th, 2005 at 12:57 pmGeo…side note: I am pretty certain we will continue to disagree on numerous things, but i’m glad you are here. Is there any way you can inject some of your thoughtfulness into the idiot trolls who come around here?
December 9th, 2005 at 12:59 pm“I’ve looked at a lot of wars, and anyone who tries to do that is going to find themselves wrong, flat wrong…”
and just what were you “right” about? As I listened to this interview I became so disgusted with the “I’m not making any suggestions” after he suggests that the media is only showing negative stories and ignoring positive….such an ass….
December 9th, 2005 at 1:06 pmThey also didn’t think it was too important to keep track of casualties:
“It’s approximately 500, of which - I can get the exact numbers - approximately 350 are combat deaths,” Wolfowitz said. AP, 4/29/04 (Actual numbers: 722, 521)
December 9th, 2005 at 1:08 pm… it’s real simple:
if you wrote or signed onto pnac’s letter to clinton - war crimes charges levied, stripped of job & title & salary
if you profitted in this war - profits refunded to the u.s., permanent banning of federal contracts
… and it’ll never happen
December 9th, 2005 at 1:20 pmCroucho Marxs: “Who are you going to believe? Me our your own eyes?”
December 9th, 2005 at 1:30 pmIf you haven’t seen it you should, a documentary “Orwell Rolls in His Grave”. Excellent piece of work on how the MSM manipulates the truth and the corporate, hence, government control of what we hear, read and see.
…as I’ve said earlier, when the Iraqi people were tearing down the statues and posters of Saddam it did indeed look like a “liberator†moment.~~Giacomo @ 11:46am
Of course, the most well known and publicized “tearing down” of a Saddam Hussein statue was US staged propaganda–and the US broadcast and cable TV stations very nicely played along by showing only close cropped shots. The foreign press showed the wide angles which showed only a handful of “protestors.” Later, it emerged some of those “protestors” seemed to be driven around the country to appear on an as needed basis.
Army report confirms Psy-ops staged Saddam statue toppling
by Jon Elmer
Jul 3, 2004 - An internal Army study of the war in Iraq has confirmed that the infamous toppling of the statue of Saddam Hussein in Firdos Square in central Baghdad on April 9, 2003 was stage-managed by American troops and not a spontaneous reaction by Iraqis. According to the study, a Marine colonel first decided to topple the statue, and an Army psychological operations unit turned the event into a propaganda moment.
http://newstandardnews.net/ content/ ?action=show_item&itemid=641
December 9th, 2005 at 1:33 pmOK … about the statue … Si should’ve know I’d get that … I was trying to make a general point and used a poor example … may bad.
They’ve done surveys, you aren’t. Democrats tend to be better educated and smarter.
I need a link to that one, Ryan. Seems to me that since you tend to get most, if not all, of the poor vote, that should offset the majority you have in the education arena.
Is there any way you can inject some of your thoughtfulness into the idiot trolls who come around here?
I already tried with IRI … at first he accused me of not being conservative/Christian enough … then he cooled off.
Beacuse you can’t. Rethugs may individually have the same average IQ as the general population, but their gullibility toward infantile flag-waving/Jeebus rhetoric and willingness to endlessly swallow fibs and make excuses in the Age of Bush makes their collective actions dumber than a box of rocks.
All I said, which is what you said as well, is that averages would likely be similar.
December 9th, 2005 at 1:44 pmOk, Ok, All the Iraqis hate us … sheesh … I can’t be right ALL the time (tongue firmly in cheek).
December 9th, 2005 at 1:46 pm#58
My point is that the entire Iraq war has been nothing but a PR event for Bush and friends.
They told the American people that we would be greated as liberators, so they staged events like the Saddam statue to make it seem that way.
We were not and are not viewed as liberators. We are viewed as occupiers. Nothing more, nothing less.
December 9th, 2005 at 1:48 pmLook at the Iraqi people in the pictures. They are not helping to pull that statue down, they are standing around with their arms crossed watching. Execpt for that one guy, who is probably with Chalabi.
December 9th, 2005 at 1:49 pm[…] Were they always this mendacious? Were they always this stupid? How about another one of those trips down memory lane? These are from Think Progress: Rumsfeld, 2/7/03: “It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months.†[…]
December 9th, 2005 at 1:54 pmAll I said, which is what you said as well, is that averages would likely be similar.
Comment by Giacomo — December 9, 2005 @ 1:44 pm
Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives
December 9th, 2005 at 1:54 pm- John Stuart Mill English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)
Rumsfeld and Cheney were about as prescient - and accurate - as the former Iraqi Information Minister, Baghdad Bob:
December 9th, 2005 at 1:59 pmGeo,
December 9th, 2005 at 2:19 pmNot Christian enough? I guess that means I probably would not measure up either.
Steve J.
Nice quote … it is about 150 years old or so (and probably references conservative Christians who had the propensity for burning others alive back then) … but, just the same, nice quote. Adds zip, proves less.
December 9th, 2005 at 2:20 pmYeah MLDB
IRI knows I’m a Christian … he tried telling me I was a sucky one at first, but he backed off.
December 9th, 2005 at 2:22 pm#59 - “We were not and are not viewed as liberators. We are viewed as occupiers. Nothing more, nothing less.”
December 9th, 2005 at 2:31 pmComment by SpudgeBoy — December 9, 2005 @ 1:48 pm
*****SpudgeMan - sweeping statements do not lend credence to your premise. Some (mainly Sunnis) view us as “occupiers” - but you conventiently forget to mention their loss of power status. The Shiites are mixed, but the well-traveled TerryTurtle can give you pointers on the nuances of Islamic culture - they don’t always SAY exactly what they mean.
“THAT would be an interesting study, repug IQ vs dem IQ. No prizes for guessing the outcome”
Here’s the’study’ and the results are clear.
December 9th, 2005 at 2:32 pmWe folks have to learn to stop reading things into what they say. For instance, when cRummy says “It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months,” he means “It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt it would be as little as six months.” Another great example is Condi’s recent sidestep on torture. Don’t even get me started on that but one thing I can assure you is that at no time did she say detainees weren’t tortured.
December 9th, 2005 at 2:39 pm#67, MA’s right (scuse me while I choke on a pretzel and clean my screen). It is much more complicated than it seems. One way to think of it this: imagine that France invaded the US in order to get rid of a despot (Chimpy and the Organ Grinder). Imagine how powerless you felt to get rid of him yourself before the invasion and now imagine the humiliation you feel that someone else had to do it for you. Would you like to have the French sticking around as a constant reminder of your inadequacies? See even those who are in favor of the Iraq invasion (the Shiites in this case, are taking a very realpolitik approach to this: as long as they think they need the Americans to keep the Sunni in line, they are for the occupation) have complicated motives about the ongoing occupation…
December 9th, 2005 at 2:42 pmmighty aphrodite,
I meant it to be an all encompassing sweeping statement. I do mean almost all Iraqis. I don’t mean some. I mean a majority.
Yes, you are correct, using a term like all, every or never is silly. But, I didn’t say all, every or never.
That is where the opinion thing comes in. You believe the Iraqis want us there, even though I haven’t heard that from the Iraqis. I on the other hand believe they want us to set a timetable for withdrawal, so that they can get on with rebuilding their country, which I have heard from the Iraqis.
December 9th, 2005 at 2:45 pmTerrytheTurtle … funny name … insightful post.
December 9th, 2005 at 2:52 pmYeah MLDB
IRI knows I’m a Christian … he tried telling me I was a sucky one at first, but he backed off.
Comment by Giacomo
I never said you were a “sucky” Christian. Some of your ideas suck or are just plain wrong in my opinion.
December 9th, 2005 at 2:57 pmQuestions:
December 9th, 2005 at 2:57 pm(1) are all Muslims radical?
(2) If not why not? What is radicalizing them?
(3) If radicalizing muslims is in general contributing to the insurgency in Iraq and a rise in terrorism worldwide, would not a sensible strategy (since there are a near limitless number of available young Muslim men ready to be radicalized and the demographic is not getting any better with every year) be to seek out the causes of radicalization and to mitigate them (provided this does not depart too far from what might be seen as national interest of national value system)?
(4) Is it possible, since there are 1.1 billion Muslims, to shoot all the radical ones?
(5) How do you know which are radical without doing things to the moderate ones that turn them into radicals?
Terry
1) No
2) Because some of them actually practice their faith … poverty, control issues, a belief that somehow God has created heaven only to satisfy the needs of men and subjugate those of women (the whole virgins as a gift idea).
3) Maybe … it starts with the moderates condemning the radicals … and continues with a reduction of poverty.
4) Nope
5) The ones that have fuses hanging out of their backpacks … thems the radicals.
Sorry … some of my answers aren’t jokes.
December 9th, 2005 at 3:04 pm#74 - You definately have a grip on the dynamics.
We have seen this pattern time and time again throughout the Middle East after WWII. The occupation of Egypt, Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon and Palestine by foriegn armies has always resulted in the formation of radicalized Muslim group to combat the occupying forces. It is evident that occupying armies contribute to, if not cause the radicalization of moderate Muslims.
December 9th, 2005 at 3:20 pm#75, so Giaco, (5) the radicals wear their explosive vests for the last 15 mins of their radical lives. Most of the time you can’t pick them out of a crowd of otherwise law-abiding people…sooo…it makes it pretty hard to stop them before they do something, doesn’t it? So given that crime prevention here is pretty damn hard, how about discouragement from doing it? If I had nothing better to do with my life (because I had no job, no prospect for one, my religion prevented me from flirting with the girls and maybe I had some turban-headed mullah telling me every Friday it was all Israel and George Bush’s fault), I might feel like strapping on the TNT and running into a crowd.
Long-story short, you can’t shoot them all, you can’t imprison them all (especially if they haven’t done anything (yet)) and most of them are not in the mood to start shooting at you yet anyway (unless you do something to them to really piss them off). So a pure military solution, with no application of law, order and understanding for the causes of radicalism will fail.
December 9th, 2005 at 3:22 pmI agree with you, Terry
December 9th, 2005 at 3:26 pmAnd which two out of those three strategies for this so-called ‘global war on terror’ are not being used by the Chimp and his Organ Grinders…?
December 9th, 2005 at 3:42 pmRummys own admissions make him the most arrogant, ignorant and ill informed Sec. of Def. of all time.
Any person in charge of that department that would say that he DID NOT figure the costs of men, materials and money is an absolute idiot.
Period.
December 9th, 2005 at 4:08 pmI just Emailed Lehrer at the NewsHour to complain about his tepid interview with Rummy.
December 9th, 2005 at 4:32 pmPablo, I think you’re correct — any one who would admit that he did not estimate the length, the casualties, and cost of a planned war is an imbecile.
He must retire, but Lieberman in his place would be no improvement.
Except for the few in this forum, it looks like a large number of Americans are still very much in deep sleep. I can’t see it in anny other way. The other day I saw a bumpersticker that read “IF YOU’RE NOT OUTRAGED, YOU HAVE NOT BEEN PAYING ATTENTION“. It said it all.
December 9th, 2005 at 6:43 pmComment by Pablo in Mexico:
It’s not JUST Rummy. Every single on in this administration possesses the same level of incompetence. It’s just that the competence has not been exposed for everyone. Just look at Michael Brown as an example. Starting from the very top, as we all know by know (minus the idiot bunch that still worship the idiot), that the guy on top is to blame and ultimately responsible for the entire mess, which include trillion-dollar deficit, thousands of innocent lives loss, millions job losses, and quality of life degraded for ordinary Americans. All this just to boost the record profits for Halliburton, ExxonMobil and alike.
Great job!
December 9th, 2005 at 6:53 pm[…] Rumsfeld Lies About Pre-War Predictions […]
December 9th, 2005 at 7:49 pmWould that Be RIGGS bank Rummy?
HUH? HUH?
YOU KNOW the BCCI Branch??
Can I CASH your WORD there Rummy?
How MUCH is YOUR word Worth RUMMY?
Just Asking…
But I still Wonder?
I would Say that YOU OWE me..
December 9th, 2005 at 10:08 pmmmm about THREE FARTHINGS Mr Rumsfeld.
When WILL you PAY ME?
I never said you were a “sucky†Christian. Some of your ideas suck or are just plain wrong in my opinion.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — December 9, 2005 @ 2:57 pm
They are Wrong?
whats Right I? or I Right?
Is this just a Direction?
A religious Sentiment?
Are you Religiious?
Righteous, Un righteous?
Crete Creator Creationist.
Your Words, as Always, I dont understand..
HOW so you KNOW his Ideas are Wrong?
December 9th, 2005 at 10:14 pmPlease Elaborate,,
BTW do you have a LIE Detector in your Head Like Rush Limbaugh?
I find that Funny, He says he has a truth Detector, so others must have them right?
I cant Find Mine,,where is it?
Where is Yours?
I found that CHECK Mr. Rummy, Can I CASH IT NOW
•Captive made false statements the U.S. heeded to avoid being treated harshly, some say
By DOUGLAS JEHL
New York Times
WASHINGTON - The Bush administration based a crucial prewar assertion about ties between Iraq and al-Qaida on detailed statements made by a prisoner in Egyptian custody who later said he had fabricated them to escape harsh treatment, according to current and former government officials.
The officials said the captive, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, provided his most specific and elaborate accounts about ties between Iraq and al-Qaida only after he was secretly handed over to Egypt by the United States in January 2002, in a process known as rendition.
The new disclosure provides the first public evidence that bad intelligence on Iraq may have resulted partly from the administration’s heavy reliance on third countries to carry out interrogations of al-Qaida members and others detained as part of U.S. counterterrorism efforts. The Bush administration used Libi’s accounts as the basis for its prewar claims, now discredited, that ties between Iraq and al-Qaida included training in explosives and chemical weapons.
December 9th, 2005 at 10:38 pmThis just in fom Captain Obvious:
If you ram a broomstick far enough up my butt, I WILL tell you anything you want.
December 9th, 2005 at 11:44 pmWhat?! Torture works!?
December 10th, 2005 at 2:02 am[…] Fifteen Questions for the U.S. Government Rumsfeld Lies About Pre-War Predictions Defining torture in a new world war […]
December 10th, 2005 at 5:58 amNow we find that THREE YEARS before 911 our intelligence had the information that bin Laden and Al Qaeda had the idea of using airplanes to attack civilization.
Yet after 911 everyone but Richard Clarke was amazed as can be.
What a bunch of frigging idiots. They knew all along folks, but I doubt if anyone told Bushbaby. He would not have remembered it anyway, his brain is gone.
December 10th, 2005 at 10:18 am“The influx of both idealogy and jihadists has been the cause of the unrest … the majority in Iraq (I know some Iraqis are assisting, but they are of the same ilk as the “influxersâ€) could have been stabilized had we been prepared to stop the radicals from neighboring regions.”
Only someone with absolutely NO understanding of the history and culture of Iraq could make such an obtuse and fatuous statement. Even the U.S. military admits that the “influxers” - by which I assume you mean foreigners who have come into Iraq to join the insurgency - is at best 10 percent of the resistance. Not sure WTF “ideology” is supposed to refer to. If you mean sectarian differences between Shi’a and Sunni, those were there long, long before Saddam was toppled, and anyone who didn’t have his head squarely up his ass could have told you (and many did) that the bitter rivalry between the two groups would be the biggest challenge in a post-Saddam Iraq. Of course, the administration was much too clever to actually listen to the truth - they were too intent on creating their own “reality” on the ground. Please step away from the Kool-Aid Giacomo…
December 10th, 2005 at 11:13 amYOU WHITE FLAG WAVING COWARDS!
December 10th, 2005 at 5:19 pmGiacomo,
Considering that almost all of your points have been completely shot down by the evidence you have a very composed and sunny attitude. I’m seriously interested in the cumulative effect of these truths, which many of us find to be self evident, on your continuing support of the war and the war party. I was against this war for purely pragmatic reasons from the start. Overwhelming force is always trumped by an uncooperative populace that provides cover for an amorphous largely leaderless insurgency, ie. Viet Nam, Algeria, Mexico (several times), Afghanistan (consistently since about 1200), Russia, China, Cuba, and, oh yeah, the United States in around 1776. The most shameful aspect of this whole funky mess is that we don’t even learn the lessons of our own country’s birth, when you fight a far off war on unfamiliar ground your chances of losing are very high. The high and mighty neo-conservative geniuses that gave us this war have never had the slightest grasp on the social and cultural realities that their actions would put in motion. They are prime representatives of their class, willing to tell folks they’d never mingle with socially how they ought to think and act. As an addendum I’m wondering for all the talk about Muslims in the Middle East and what they’ll do, how many have you ever spoken to personally? My own experience is very limited so I usually let them speak for themselves rather than interpolate for them. Of course to find out what they think we might have to look at Al Jazeera or some evil website like that.
December 10th, 2005 at 5:33 pm#94, what’s evil about al jazeera?
December 11th, 2005 at 5:10 pmWhat Rumsfeld’s really telling you is not about his credibility.
He’s telling you that the U.S. dollar is worth as much as his word of honor.
Get it? Oil will be priced in Euros next spring, unless the US invades Iran and prevents them from opening their competitive market — and people with Euros will be able to buy more than people with dollars.
Even the dollars being printed in North Korea.
Remember, the Federal Reserve quits reporting the “M3″ — overseas “dollar assets” — starting early in 2006.
Rumsfeld’s telling the truth again — you can take his word to the bank. It’s worth the same thing as the full faith and honor of the United States.
You know what Rumsfeld was saying to Saddam in that famous handshake picture of a few years ago, don’t you?
“Don’t do anything I wouldn’t.”
And he didn’t, apparently.
December 11th, 2005 at 11:29 pmBREAKING NEWS:
WANTED FOR WAR CRIMES AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY!
The following are wanted by the International Criminal Court (at the Hague) for promoting, initiating, and executing an illegal, immoral, and deadly attack and occupation of a sovereign nation, for personal and political gain:
George W. Bush (aka Bushiva)
Dick Cheney (aka L’il Dick)
Donald Rumsfeld (aka Dummy Rummy)
Condoleeza Rice (aka Cundti)
Paul Wolfowitz
Richard Perle
Ken Adelman
William Kristol
Everyone at Fox “Propaganda” Network
Rush Limbaugh (aka Pus Limphog)
Note: List includes but is not limited to the above mentioned criminals.
December 12th, 2005 at 2:00 pmBREAKING NEWS:
ABC/ TIME MAG NEW POLL
7 in 10 Iraqis say their own lives are going well, and nearly two-thirds expect things to improve in the year ahead.
December 12th, 2005 at 2:21 pmRemeber that to move up in a corporation you must of all things be a very clever psychopath. Things then are done as inexpensively and as profitably as possible,no matter what or who is harmed in the process. Lying is good so long as it gets the job done. This is especially true in the oil business. All the Presidents men are corporate types with oil between their toes. Everything that comes out of this bunch is about 99% bullshit and the Pres. is just a pawn they’ve BSed into beleiving he matters.
December 12th, 2005 at 8:27 pmHey BILLC #98,
Isn’t that wonderful news!
Now take that same poll to the destitute taxpaying American citizens who used to live in New Orleans, but are now scattered like DANGBLASTED REFUGEES around the country- or living in their cars or pup tents!
You Bushites are moronic, treasonous scum, and America needs a purge!
December 13th, 2005 at 8:55 amBILLC #98
YOU SLIMY DEVIL YOU.
Did some research and it seems your posting is quite misleading, that poll was actually taken in the northern KURDISH region.
70% of Kurds? heck, Bushiva (and you inbreds) are in real trouble.
December 13th, 2005 at 4:13 pmWedding Bands
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December 20th, 2005 at 10:31 pmOk, people, American’s………..You had 4 yrs of gw bush, and saw what he did. Now, how can anyone with an ounce of intelligence vote for this screw up again?
January 4th, 2006 at 4:40 amRepukes, are you all brain dead? I just don’t understand you. Do you have a mental block of some sort? You cannot see how incompetant gw bush is, and that he is a lying sack of shit. And his lies, killed thousands of people.
WTF?
[…] But as has been the case with other administration forecasts about the Iraq war and its aftermath, the prediction of a subsequent “global democratic revolution” was overly optimistic. […]
April 10th, 2006 at 7:55 pm[…] Captain Ed from Captain’s Quarters misses the boat. Ed points out that some generals endorse Rummy’s handling of his job as Secretary of Defense. They think he is doing a good job. It’s more than obvious these guys need more shore leave to catch back up with reality. Just about 3 years ago Rumsfeld when asked how long he thought this war might take said, “It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months. Well here we are 3 years later and there is no end in sight. That is certainly a sign of success, adept planning, and careful stewardship of his office on the part of Rumsfeld. But were the Captain and his crew miss the boat is that just because a general or two endorse Rumsfeld does nothing to mitigate the fact that any general at all has broken ranks and opened his mouth to speak out against the Secretary. When was the last time any secretary of states was openly denounced by his own generals? The fact that any general, much less six of them, have called for his resignation says it all. […]
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