Strategy Memo: White House Efforts to Undercut Torture Amendment Continue
Strategy Memo: White House Efforts to Undercut Torture Amendment Continue
Yesterday the House of Representatives voted overwhelmingly for a motion urging that the McCain Anti-Torture Amendment be included in the Defense Authorization Bill now being negotiated between members of the House and Senate. The motion was offered by Rep. John Murtha (D-PA), and passed 308-122.
The motion is not binding on the House conferees appointed to negotiate with the Senate, but the fact that each house has now gone on record in strong support of the Anti-Torture Amendment sends a powerful message, and creates even more momentum behind it.
Reports today suggest that the White House may finally have recognized that its efforts to weaken or derail the McCain amendment will not succeed. If so, that is very good news indeed.
However, the administration has not relented in its efforts to undercut the amendment by other means. It is continuing to press for changes to a related provision sponsored by Senators Graham and Levin which was inserted into the Senate bill with no hearings and virtually no debate.
Graham-Levin is already a seriously flawed provision: it chips away at the ancient right of habeas corpus, restricting the ability of detainees at Guantánamo to have an independent court review of the factual basis for their detention. It should be removed from the bill and assigned to the House and Senate Judiciary Committees, so that it can be given the careful consideration that such fundamental changes in the law deserve.
Instead, the proposed administration changes would make the Graham-Levin provision worse, undercutting the McCain amendment by:
• Barring Guantánamo detainees from applying to any court of law for relief from torture or cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment; and
• Permitting the government to use evidence in court that has been obtained through the use of torture or abuse of prisoners at Guantánamo.
If this language were to become law, it would create incentives for the government to continue to engage in the very practices that gave rise to the McCain amendment, and would make it impossible for the victims of such practices to present their claims before an impartial judge.
Congress should drop this dangerous provision and act immediately to pass the McCain Anti-Torture Amendment—without exceptions and without limitations.
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Why can’t these people abide by the
December 15th, 2005 at 2:45 pmU.S. Constitution and subsequent law?
Why do they hate our long established
legal system designed to protect rights
and deter abuse?
Hmmm… Crooks afraid of the law. Very Nixonian of them? Reaganesque?
December 15th, 2005 at 2:49 pmWe are slowly and steadily destroying who we are and what once made this country great.
December 15th, 2005 at 2:49 pmThey just have to try to ‘go around’ the law,a bad mistake,BTW,raw story: ‘32% want bush impeached’. Goodbye bushie.
December 15th, 2005 at 2:52 pmThis may be pure snark, but why is that a WH
December 15th, 2005 at 2:53 pmfull of former CEOs, the “MBA” president and other
former high level corporate officers, twist, weasel,
sneak, cheat, change the meaning, of laws and rules
so they can do whatever they want?
Does this say something of the “culture of business”?
Only caring about “the bottom line”, i.e., the “ends justify
the means”?
That was a wide brush, so let me add that
December 15th, 2005 at 2:56 pmthe situation does NOT reflect on the way
all businesses are run, but I still wonder
why this group of people seem to have no
respect for rules, ethics, and law, let alone
our history or reputation as a nation.
WE WIN! At least a little.
Bush just agreed to the bill, because the house would not support Bush’s opposition.
America is a little closer to regaining our role as a champion of freedom and democracy.
One step, one small step.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:02 pm#6 Ever taken a Business Ethics class? Seriously, all (o.k., most) of these young up and comers into the hard business line have no clue about ethics, and display an amazing inability to understand WHY things are unethical when money is made. Seriously. That is what most buisness minded people think – bottom line justifies anything. They will add on apologetics like, “well, people have a choice – they don’t HAVE to live next to the toxic dump…” etc.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:02 pmAnd that is the problem with this administration. Laws, rules, ethics, the Constitution – they are all legal things that get in the way of them making money, and so they just want to loophole every single law or rule that they don’t like, and damn the country.
#6, Personally I think the answer is simple: They have the power, so they’re going to use it to shape the course of our country to their personal liking. Rules, ethics, and law only apply when they are in the minority and having to fight against people that don’t think they walk on water and can do no wrong.
Let us not forget that when the Democrats were in power, they were caught in a number of scandals and shady dealings. It’s nothing close to what the current administration is dealing in, but nothing to be all that proud about either.
Basically, when Republicans are in the minority they feel that dissent, ethics and “rules” should be applied ruthlessly. When they hold the reins of power, then it’s “un-American” to question their excesses.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:04 pm#7 The bill AS IT STANDS? and what abot the Army FM issue? was that resolved? I don’t trust these louts, and I suspect that they will still try to “loophole” this. Bush giving in? Is that the stubborn child we’ve been watching all this time? I wonder……
December 15th, 2005 at 3:05 pmI think most liberals and conservatives agreed that torture is unsupportable (heck, some of them even realized it was morally wrong … wow).
December 15th, 2005 at 3:06 pmYea Giacomo, just look at the #’s on the votes.
So why is it with such a majority from both sides of the aile that the extremes seem to be dominating the press. Could it be that most of us are boring and wouldn sell newspapers or 30 second spots? Hmmmm.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:11 pmThank you, John McCain, for crippling our ability to extract information from these terrorist animals that may in the future prevent another terrorist attack. I say torture them all. They deserve it. For every hostage that the terroists execute, take one of those bastards out from GITMO and lop his friggin’ head off. It is time to take the gloves off in the war on terror.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:20 pmYou guys here at Think Progress are the ticker tape of truth. I love the constant feed of observations you make so prolifically. The rules get changed so quickly at the White House for correspondance and details. You guys stay on top of it so much, thanks for the delivery and the wide open forum sorta like Gilligan’s Island.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:21 pmDo you think a little thing like a ‘anti torture’ amendment is going to stop the likes of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice? This is the group (minus Powell) that brought us the invasion of Iraq and the [un]Patriot Act. Does anyone really believe that these characters really care about what is morally right or what the US historically has stood for. Bush stated only yesterday that he would still invade iraq even in the face of 2,150 US casualties, 30,000+ dead Iraqis and no WMD!
December 15th, 2005 at 3:22 pm#13-
December 15th, 2005 at 3:22 pmHell yeah! Eye-for-an-eye.
Where are the religionists on the torture issue? Someone should find out which religion these goons belong to and get some feedback from their ministers as to what god they worship. This whole reich-wing should be gathered up and flogged in the public square, or put in stocks like the common criminals they are.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:22 pmJoy
#17-
December 15th, 2005 at 3:24 pmSomeone should take your sorry liberal butt and put you in the stocks, Joy. Torture is what keeps you safe, hippie.
Davey-
Don’t expect these pukes to understand what happens in the real world. All they know is their big house out in the suburbs, and their SUVs, and their little kids going to private schools. They have no idea about what it takes to keep our nation safe.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:26 pm#13
Where did you get that information? I bet you made it up to support your delusions of Sadism. I really wish you freaks would learn to read non-fiction.
#16
December 15th, 2005 at 3:28 pmAn eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
-Gandhi
Believe me, if cutting the testicles off of a terrorist, and letting him bleed to death would stop just ONE act of terrorism, just give me the pruning shears.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:28 pmYou guys watch too much “24″.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:29 pmCheerleaders for torture.
How vile.
WWJD indeed.
#20
December 15th, 2005 at 3:30 pmAnd if gouging THE EYES out of one of these sub-humans would accomplish the same, give me the stick.
#19
All they know is their big house out in the suburbs, and their SUVs, and their little kids going to private schools. They have no idea about what it takes to keep our nation safe.
Wrong party – wrong message board. You want the Republican forums. Try http://www.Congress.org
December 15th, 2005 at 3:30 pm#21
Okay, George W. Bush is a terrorist. Go get him.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:31 pm#21,
It sounds like you are “getting off” on torture
December 15th, 2005 at 3:31 pmjust a bit, no? Maybe you should think about
that.
Would you care if the “terrorist” turned out
not to be be one or would you still be
“excited”?
#17 The religionists wait for their answer. They can only project their equative mercy
December 15th, 2005 at 3:34 pmonto the situation. They can not judge, they have given their leaders the choices that no man should have and it makes their life easier for them. The Social Conservatives are about What you Think, The Political Conservatives are How you think it. The Liberals, Will let you think whatever you want. I have a problem with elected officials protecting me from harm by NOT telling me the Whole Story. At that point I am going
to be SOOOO skeptical of any authority and push harder for discovery and reimbursement. You ask me to pay for it then you pour it out. You just bought it, clean it up and don’t waste my money again. I feel like a teenage parent talking to their daughter who just swindled them out of $100.00 worth of T-Shirts when the original request asked for a prom dress. Where the hell is all the money going?
See the film The Corporation, which, while unashamedly biased against the corporate powers-that-be and their influence, is nevertheless useful as a tool to frame the debate on almost every issue alive in our public forum today.
The point is made (by Michael Moore in an interview near the end of the film) that a major problem with our corporate-run society is that “enough is never enough,” and that the bottom line must always be fed more profits and must be considered above all other considerations (particularly human and ethical considerations).
I have never understood why it is necessary for business to always be growing, particularly when we see the ruthlessness and avarice this philosophy engenders in the businessman himself. In High School I worked in a mom-and-pop hardware store, and the couple that ran the store began with 2 employees in the early seventies and retired with 2 employees in the mid nineties. They never expanded or increased their “market share,” they worked the hours they were comfortable with and were able to own their home, take nice vacations, send two kids through private colleges, and retire in comfort and security.
They are the antithesis of the manic, destructive corporate need to always grow, to push profits up, to lay waste to the environment and the workers’ lives in the cause of increased profitability, to place in the lap of the shareholders more, more, and yet more growth, growth, growth.
I bring this up because we live now in the corporate “lap of death,” to quote e.e. cummings, and for what? To be worked relentlessly almost to exhaustion to pay for ever-dwindling rewards, to be tired and demoralized and desperate all the time? To pay higher and higher co-payments on the medicines we take to cure us of the stress and anxiety caused by the enormous treadwheel on which we run? To pay for our boss’s boss’s boss’s lavish lifestyle — a lifestyle which recedes from our grasp no matter how hard we work, thanks to the rigged Republican Business machine which swallows democracies whole and turns them into privately-owned tyrannies, accountable to no one?
I say we should table the spurious “social conservative” issues for a moment and look the beast squarely in the face. Who benefits from war, from low wages, from the lack of a social safety net?
Not you and me. Only the CEO class, the upper echelons of business. If this is indeed a nation of the people, by the people, and for the people, we’re going to need – we the people are going to need – to take it all back.
Only a coldblooded businessman could calculate the cost/benefit ratio of torturing people outside the law, with no due process and in shameless defiance of the whole world.
I am horrified and sickened by what our leaders have made of this great country.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:35 pm#26-
December 15th, 2005 at 3:35 pmBelieve me, this stuff doesn’t excite me. It is just the cold, hard truth. There are plenty of guys out there like me who have killed for this country. Believe me, I’ve killed plenty, and never had a problem with it. Well, I take that back. The first few were troubling, but you get de-sensitized after a while, I guess. It helps when your enemy are nothing more than MURDEROUS DOGS.
#28
Ever think of going into politics? I’d vote for you after that speech :)
December 15th, 2005 at 3:37 pmTorture is a disgusting, degrading, useless, immoral and stupid action which should be condemned by every decent person and civilized country.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:38 pmAre some of the people advocating torture Christians? What happened to “love your neighbor as yourself”? Or for old Testament followers “you should only have one set of scales” ie use the same laws on others that you only wish to be used on yourself. I don’t want to be tortured, and therefore find it against my religious beliefs to torture others.
#28,
I number of really good points in your post.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:40 pmThanks for taking the time to write it.
#29
It helps when your enemy are nothing more than MURDEROUS DOGS.
Who says? You? And what if one day you are determined to be that ‘murderous dog’ (since you admit to being one)? Does that mean someone else is justified in shooting you?
December 15th, 2005 at 3:40 pm#29
December 15th, 2005 at 3:44 pmIt would help if your enemies were “Murderous Dogs” but real life isn’t a Tolkien film with the hobbits fighting orcs. Your enemies are people.
#33
Nobody will ever be in the position to judge me. I’m a war hero for the most powerful nation in the history of the world. A nation that fights and defends the highest virtues of mankind. When I took up the sword, and struck down our enemies, it was for the greater good, for the good of all mankind, not just America. The terrorists are the antithesis of all that is good and just, and deserve to be tortured and killed like they torture and kill the virtuous.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:45 pmCan one torture and still be “virtuous”?
December 15th, 2005 at 3:51 pm#36-
It all depends on your point of few. Here is a question for you. Can you pull an unborn baby half-way out of its mother’s womb, sever its head from it’s body, discard the body in the trash, and still be virtuous?
December 15th, 2005 at 3:54 pm#35
You’re also delusional… like Hitler who thought he’d never be in a position to be judged because he believed that he was a war hero for the most powerful nation in the history of the world. A nation that fights and defends the highest virtues of mankind.
My father’s family was filled with war heros – purple hearts, Metals of Honor, Navy crosses. I have the blood of actual war heros (go look up John Basilone). And they weren’t sadists like you.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:55 pmHey common I agree terrorist are bad but I’m sick and tired of military people thinking they know more about truth and justice than everyone else . If the miltary made policy America wouldn’t be a democracy , so you and kiss ass McCain , throw in Toby Keith too can go blow .
December 15th, 2005 at 3:56 pmWhat about that moral tenet Thou shalt not kill? Bizarre that the US claims to be a ‘Christian’ country.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:56 pm#37,
Trying a favorite troll distraction I see.
December 15th, 2005 at 3:59 pmStraight out of troll school I guess?
Wrong thread for that discussion.
#39-
Combat vets know more about justice than ANYONE else. Because when you are out there in the shit, hanging on by a thread, hoping you’ll be alive just to eat your next meal, justice takes on a whole new meaning, my friend. Your whole life becomes justice.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:01 pmHe never said he was military. He may be John Gacey for all we know.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:01 pmVespparia Christ taught tolerance , these fundies are far from christians .
December 15th, 2005 at 4:01 pmBTW Cswaa,
Thanks for serving.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:02 pmI hope you came through it okay.
Common you were in the military ? And I’m 6′2” blond and a fireman
December 15th, 2005 at 4:06 pm45#-
Yeah, I came through. Although, I have schrapnel in my left hip as a souvenier. I gave a hell of lot more than I got, however.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:06 pm# 35
I take it you don’t believe in judgement after death?
December 15th, 2005 at 4:07 pmThe Lord will forgive just killing. Read the Old Testament. Plenty of killing in there. As long as those doing the killing are on the side of God, and trying to accomplish some good. We didn’t start this war, but by-God, we will finish. No matter how much killing and torturing it takes. We took the same approach in WWII, stayed the course, and now all of Europe can thank us for not being a bunch of pacifist pansies.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:11 pm#49
The Iraqis think they are on the side of God. However does such an invisible idol decide who is right? And what if it’s not you?
December 15th, 2005 at 4:12 pm#46-
Your damn right I was in the military. A Company, 1st BN, 110th Infantry Regiment, in the 28th Infantry Division, from 43-45. I’ve seen hell, sonny. You don’t want any part of it.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:14 pmThe terrorists that attacked us on Sept.11 are not the people we are fighting in Iraq.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:15 pmHere is a hypothetical situation for you. If your country was invaded, if foreign troops were in your city, going from house to house beating, killing, arresting people; if you knew that your friends, neighbors, relatives were taken away and tortured would you fight back? Would you join forces with whoever you had to in order to fight the invaders?
#51-
If you don’t believe that we are right, and the rag-heads are wrong, than you need to get the hell out of this country, and quick. It is people like you that are ruining this country, boy.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:15 pm#52-
I probably wouldn’t give a damn if these hypothetical invaders killed, arrested, and tortured my neighbors if the neighbors were a bunch of terrorists. Which is what is happening in Iraq. Do you really think we are indiscriminately arresting people over there? Wake up. Look at the elections today. The Iraqis love us, just like the French and eventually the Germans. We did the same thing in Germany after the war as we are doing in Iraq today. We killed more than a few Krauts who stirred up trouble after the war. And there were no trials. If we caught someone in the act, we just shot them on site.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:20 pm#53
I think it is people who don’t believe in laws or justice, and believe in torture who are ruining this country.
CSWAA, re #49. Many things are shown in the old Testament which are not just or good.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:23 pm#54 what if they weren’t terrorists?
December 15th, 2005 at 4:23 pmCommon your bullying might work when your making naked pyramids and sexualy assulting prisoners , but you don’t scare me , and we’re not leaving this is america . And by the way christians go by the New Testement , do you go to one of thoses churches that pick up rattlesnakes .
December 15th, 2005 at 4:24 pmGun Toting Liberal,
That was one terrific post. Wow.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:24 pmThank you.
You aren’t clear in the eyes of god. You too will have to pay your price. And a bigot to boot.
You’re a sorry sack of shit grunt.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:25 pm#56-
What if they were not terrorist? This hypothetical is ridiculous. I guess I’d do like the Germans did after we put our boot on their neck. I’d grin, bear it, and make the best of situation. And I’d learn to respect, after I’d seen what happens to those who don’t follow the rules, and end up swinging on the end of rope, or shot by a firing squad.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:27 pm#53
Rag heads? Are you serious? Well, you can thank the federal government for cutting funding to the Veterans Administration, denying you the necessary medication and therapy to deal with your post-traumatic stress.
We invaded their country without provocation. That does not make us right. It makes us occupiers. And if you don’t know that, you should get out quick.
And, for the record, I’m not a boy… I’m a grown woman.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:29 pm#59-
How would like to get your clock cleaned by an 89 year old man, punk? The only reason you are not speaking German right now, and idolizing Mein Kampf, is because of guys like me.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:29 pm# 42
Thank you for your service and I am glad you’ve reconciled your experiences with killing. It is not easy, and in fact, according to the military’s own psychiatric manuals, the traumatic effects of killing the enemy in close quarters is far greater than that of being wounded, seeing your buddies killed, or any other traumatic event you are likely to encounter. I sincerely hope you are not plagued in the future by PTSD symptoms. Thank you again.
You do, of course understand that every soldier in every army in every war ever fought thought he was fighting in service of God and the greatest nation on Earth (all the gung-ho ones, that is; conscripts make more reluctant heroes).
Thinking of your own country as unique, special, greater than any other, and entitled to abuse others in the name of a larger sense of truth or justice can be boiled down to a single term: NATIONALISM.
Nationalism is never, ever good. At home it’s called patriotism. That’s in everyone’s home, not just the US.
American nationalism is not unique. It’s like saying that of all the hundreds of religions in the world, mine is the only true one. I mean, what a coincidence!
As far as survival being equated with a “higher justice”… well, I can’t understand that. Doing what you need to do to survive may lead to very unjust acts.
And remember, the large majority of those we are holding in secret prisons were picked up in large sweeps and may be guilty of only being in the wrong place at the wrong time. To then be tortured and denied recourse to the law seems a little… Tyrannical? Un-American?
I sincerely thank your for your service. The soldier willing to die for his country is offering everything he has to his beliefs and this is for the most part to be appreciated (although the suicide bombers are doing the exact same thing, for the exact same reasons).
The sad part is that politicians control your very existence, including your possible grizzly death. The dead in Iraq were sent there by a cadre of leaders such as Dick “five deferments” Cheney and George “used his father’s influence to skip over a waiting list of 500 to protect Texas from the Viet Cong” Bush. They dismissed the urgent appeals of experienced combat generals who tried to support the troops by doing the job correctly, or more to the point, not doing it at all since it didn’t need doing. Several were fired for trying to speak truth to power. Had they listened, a lot more young Americans and for that matter innocent Iraqis would be alive today. Oh well. Que sera sera.
It’s a hard thing to consider that one who has offered to make the ultimate sacrifice for his country may have been sent to war unnecessarily. Yet it does happen.
Democracy itself is a hard thing, not for the weak. Protesting in times of war is an act of love. Shouting protesters down is a repudiation of the rights the soldier died for.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:31 pm#61-
Hussein violated 14 U.N. sanctions. That was provocation enough, I suppose. We’ve gone to war for less in this country (see the Spanish-American War, or War of 1812)
December 15th, 2005 at 4:32 pm#62 Then you should be able to recognize the fascist menace that is taking over our country!
December 15th, 2005 at 4:34 pm#64 But it doesn’t mean that we should. We should value life – all life – far more than that!
December 15th, 2005 at 4:35 pmCommon Sense (debatable) with Attitude,
I wonder how you will feel about torture when they decide to interrogate you? Your logic is so seriously flawed that it is not worth arguing against. The fact that you advocate and defend actions that bring harm upon an individual without “cause” and “due process” means that you have no regard for the US Constitution or its laws.
And before you try to respond with a childish response of “but dey ain’t amerikans”, let me familiarize you with a concept that the founding fathers thought to be “self evident”: “all men (ie; mankind or, better stated, all humans) are created equal”. What that means is that the laws that we live by do not have borders, nor do they have technical exclusions.
Try to give that some serious thought.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:36 pmIs there any possible, ethical way we can keep these assholes from trolling in here? Will ignoring them work?
afterthought—-the answer is yes. This is the model of corporate executive behavior, by and large. It’s no coincidence that these guys go back and forth between CEO and high-level government jobs. (BTW, Cheney was a lousy CEO, according to something I read, but the disappointed execs at Halliburton kept him for his connections. He was a “rainmaker”. It’s all about money & power with that goon.)
December 15th, 2005 at 4:41 pmTo all-
I’m done talking to you nitwits, especially guntotingliberal. Your speeches sound really nice, but welcome to the real world. Our country is the last bastion of all that is righteous left on this earth. If you don’t believe in the basic goodness of what our nation represents, than you need to emmigrate to Sweden, or the Netherlands. Go sell your soul over there. As for the rest of you, I hope you never have to shoot another man in the face at close quarters, or see your best friend cut down in the foxhole next to you, like I have. But if you find yourself in that situation, remember what country you are fighting for, and remember what ideals you represent. AMERICA. The last great country left.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:42 pmHey common now I know your problem (89yrs) you’re getting senial . Didn’t you have a good war president in the big 2 or did you forget , there is meds for guys like you , if you can afford them . This liberal lobbied against Bushes mediscare plan , we both got something in common , we got screwed there .
December 15th, 2005 at 4:43 pmTorture is wrong. Thank god 90 Senators and what 300 Representatives say as much.
My guess is that dumbya will have to listen. But we all know he won’t like it.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:44 pmNo, he’s just gay and is afraid to let anyone know it. Yo guy, we’re progressives. You can tell us and we won’t hold it against you. Lot’sa guys like you runnin’ aroung the Castro district.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:45 pm#69,
So you say that the US is the last bastion of righteousness in the world as your defense of the “real world” attrocities that are being committed in her name and condoned by folks such as yourself.
You, sir, are the traitor! And you should move your sorry ass off to a country that has the dictatorship that you seek. Our constitution and its ideals are what we are defending here and you and your ilk just want to wipe your ass with it. Go cheney yourself you coward.
December 15th, 2005 at 4:52 pmBe nice to 89 year old WWII veterans.
December 15th, 2005 at 5:05 pmDon’t expect these pukes to understand what happens in the real world. All they know is their big house out in the suburbs, and their SUVs, and their little kids going to private schools. They have no idea about what it takes to keep our nation safe.
Comment by Common sense with an attitude — December 15, 2005 @
Well, apparently you don’t either, since it is now clear for everyone who cares to see that torture does not produce accurate information:
My Experience With Abusive Interrogation Tactics
“Enhanced interrogation techniques” (aka torture) were used in the extraction of information regarding the non-existent links between Hussein’s Iraq and AlQaeda:
Al Qaeda-Iraq Link Recanted
December 15th, 2005 at 5:09 pmYour speeches sound really nice, but welcome to the real world.
Comment by Common sense with an attitude — December 15, 2005 @ 4:42 pm
Translation: In the real world laws and basic human decency don’t apply.
Our country is the last bastion of all that is righteous left on this earth.
Translation: Torture is righteous.
If you don’t believe in the basic goodness of what our nation represents, than you need to emmigrate to Sweden, or the Netherlands. Go sell your soul over there.
Translation: If you don’t think torture is a sign of basic goodness, then you must be one of those despicable Nordic types.
As for the rest of you, I hope you never have to shoot another man in the face at close quarters, or see your best friend cut down in the foxhole next to you, like I have.
Translation: I have to bring up my war record to distract from the fact that torture is still wrong and has nothing to do with killing someone during combat.
But if you find yourself in that situation, remember what country you are fighting for, and remember what ideals you represent. AMERICA. The last great country left.
Translation: Please forget we were talking about how torture is wrong, while I make appeal to your patriotism. Oh, and the US is great because we torture people.
December 15th, 2005 at 5:17 pm#74,
Anyone who calls for the abandonment of the principles of our constitution, and denies an obligation of moral and ethical behavior to ALL members of humanity, is deserving of vociferous rebuke. Especially if they be a veteran of WWII because to advocate actions that are more attributable to the enemies fought in WWII than to the US is an affront to all of the veterans of that war.
December 15th, 2005 at 5:19 pmGregor,
re: #76 – Spot on!
December 15th, 2005 at 5:21 pmCommon Sense with An Attitude:
Our country is the last bastion of all that is righteous left on Earth?
Who are you, Ayatollah Khomeni?
There has never been a “good” nation in the history of the Earth. Nations seek to meet their own interests and needs. Period. Was ancient Rome “good”?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, CSWAA. What do you offer to support the “basic goodness” of the US, aside from the fact that you happen to live here? Our lousy health care system? Our corporate culture of corruption in government? Our infant mortality rates, higher than the rest of the civilized world’s? How about the poverty rates which are skyrocketing or the racial re-segregation of our schools?
Honestly, for a man of your age to believe such jingoistic nonsense. Didn’t you use that GI Bill of yours (thank the liberals for that, by the way) and get a real education after the war?
Also, you dishonor the sacrifice of the American military dead when you suggest that anyone who disagrees with you should emigrate – and why to Sweden, by the way, of all places? Are they especially deserving of our contempt? Didn’t you mean France? Guys with attitudes like yours are hating France lately, am I right? Eating Freedom fries, digging Freedom kisses with your gals, putting Freedom dressing on our salad?
All kidding aside, from one American to another, I wish you peace for yourself and your family at this joyous time of year. Whatever I write here I write out of love.
I just want our country to live up to its ideals. No more, no less.
December 15th, 2005 at 5:24 pmHe yall, and you too Common Sense,
I want to apologize for being a butthead with this guy. I shouldn’t have taken that approach and I’m sorry.
We need to be able to talk to one another. It’s too easy to fall into the stereotypical back and forth. This isn’t as simple as right or wrong, black and white. I mean the whole Iraq issue, not the torture issue. Torture is wrong. There are better ways to get the info imho. But we all have strongly held points of view and we should try to see what others are saying rather than look for the chip on someones shoulder. That isn’t always the easiest thing to do. I sure as hell am not Budda but just another shmoe making my way in the world.
Seasons best to all of you (stick it Bill O’Liely)
December 15th, 2005 at 5:25 pmCommon Sense:
By the way, you say the US is “the last great country left.”
Out of how many? And which ones were they? And how did they get demoted? Why aren’t they “great” anymore?
I am sincerely and respectfully curious.
December 15th, 2005 at 5:26 pmJust read on Yahoo! News that the White House has accepted McCain’s anti-torture legislation. Finally, a moment of clarity for Bush. I wonder how long it will last? Of course, it took a resounding call from the Senate and House to make Bush acknowledge that torture is bad. Cheney’s probably kicking the White House dog after hearing the news.
Jack B. Critical
December 15th, 2005 at 5:30 pmRemember yesterdays thread about the Army changing the field manual definition of torture so as to get around this whole thing? Has anyone seen posted what the new description is or if that won’t happen after all? Just wondering how it effects this thread and the vote to not allow torture(as defined by the army field manual).
December 15th, 2005 at 5:38 pmAfter reading this entire thread I’d like to say that while I disagree with “gun toting liberal” I appreciate his/her trying to be fair and measured … “kindness” too. If “Common sense with an attitude” is who he says he is, then he deserves all the respect in the world for serving in WWII … none of us can appreciate the brutality of that war … or how it changed those that lived through it. I’m not saying you must agree with him … but respect him … he actually did put his money where his mouth is.
I think he is right in trying to convince all of the brutality of our enemy (he may be a bit rough around the edges about how he presents this though). Brutality aside, I still don’t condone torture … especially given the “results”.
I would disagree that nationalism is the problem here … ethnocentrism maybe, but nationalism (or patriotism), no. Americans do have a lot to be proud of (Saving the world twice in world wars, actually growing as a republic (and a model that others have followed), sending both governmental, corporate and private (especially private) aid anytime the world needs, having the best university system, leading the industrial revolution, leading the tech. revolution, etc.) and some things to not be so proud of … by and large, our country has had a strong moral compass. Some say that compass is now broken … I can’t agree with this, especially when one considers that the people of the nation (and not just its leadership) comprise this compass. In my opinion, let us all be glad the Iraqis are now able to freely vote … and let us hope and pray for the hostilities to end.
December 15th, 2005 at 6:19 pmGiacomo,
You speak with eloquence, but you misrepresent the facts. You throw together WWI&II with Iraq as if they belong in the same category, thereby sharing a position of honor. Such a characterization is entirely false. Iraq was invaded preemptively based upon false assumptions and assertions. The UN, whose actions and resolutions you will be quick to cite in the defense of the US’s actions, did not sanction the action spearheaded by the US. The US acted unilaterally, aggressively, and wrongly. If you feel the need to compare WWI, WWII, and Iraq, understand that in doing so you cause anyone with intellect to observe that the actions of the US in Iraq have much more in common with the German role in both those conflicts and absolutely nothing in common with the position and actions of the allies.
I agree partially, however, that nationalism is not the problem here. However, it must be recognized that nationalism has been exploited as a tool so it has become part of the problem. I also take issue of all the great accomplishments you list regarding the US but your effort to then link them to the current administration is a farce. Every single advancement that you listed has lost ground due to the efforts and actions of the current administration. That is a dubious distinction to say the very least. You are correct that the moral compass of this nation is not broken, and I believe that a majority of Americans follow the direction of that compass. I can assure you, though, that the current administration has never used that compass. There is no way to morally reconcile this administration’s actions.
Finally, your prayer for the end to the hostilities in Iraq is disingenuous. Either that or you pray that God bring his/her wrath down upon the US because in order to halt the hostilities in Iraq you would have to eliminate the invaders.
December 15th, 2005 at 6:42 pmYou throw together WWI&II with Iraq as if they belong in the same category
I did not intend to equate these at all … I think you may be reading into what I said.
I also take issue of all the great accomplishments you list regarding the US but your effort to then link them to the current administration is a farce.
Again, all I said waas that Americans had much to be proud of (and then I listed them) … in no way were those linked to this administration (many of them occurred way before this admin). You’re reading into what I said again.
Finally, your prayer for the end to the hostilities in Iraq is disingenuous. Either that or you pray that God bring his/her wrath down upon the US because in order to halt the hostilities in Iraq you would have to eliminate the invaders.
I guess that’s one way of looking at it … or I could pray that those who are attacking our troops lose their resolve since the plurality of Iraqis wants to be free of an Islamic or Faacist state … then our boys (and girls) can come home.
December 15th, 2005 at 6:57 pmGeoMetro,
The majority of americans want to be free of a fascist state as well, and yet Diebold has prevented the event from happening here. What the people want rarely matters to fascists (you know, republicans). Iraq will probably prove to be no different.
After all, republicans liked saddam so well they sold him chemical and biological WMDs as long as he was killing commies. You and your fascist brethren always exercise moral relativism and convenience before correctness. There’s no way republicans will create anything but fascism in Iraq, because that would undermine their own political, personal and economic interests…
December 15th, 2005 at 7:00 pmAll our problems in Iraq boil down to five words – “I say bring em on.”. You want to guess at the origin of this idiotic statement?
December 15th, 2005 at 7:02 pmGiacomo,
How else can you look at it? Who do you think is fighting back against the occupation force, the Turks?
I take offense to you speaking in relations and then acting as if you are not making a connection. It’s a simple ploy but it unfortunately works. You list WWI&II in the same breath with the Iraq debacle and then you claim that were not grouping them together. Right.
You list the great accomplishments of the US while defending the current administration and you claim that you were not making an association. And, just for clarity, ALL of them happened before this administration.
And finally, this plurality of Iraqis that you keep referring to, to what facts do you reference? Is it the poll that shows that 60% want the occupiers out immediately? The poll that shows that 45% think it is justified to kill american troops? Or is it one that you got off the whitehouse web page?
December 15th, 2005 at 7:12 pm“…the White House may finally have recognized that its efforts to weaken or derail the McCain amendment will not succeed. If so, that is very good news indeed.”
Hilarious. The Shitehouse is providing McCain, who supported the terrorist genocide of Iraq, with 2008 cred, and little more.
Next, the Shitehouse will announce that it’s intention of destroying gravity will fail because McCain uses it to keep his hairpiece on.
It’s McCain to the rescue! Nevermind the blood splattered all over his superhero suit.
December 15th, 2005 at 7:16 pm#90 – All this hubbub about an ammendment to an appropriations bill that bans activity that is already illegal by our own laws and through our treaty obligations. There is more going on here than meets the eye, that’s for sure.
December 15th, 2005 at 7:28 pm“If you don’t believe that we are right, and the rag-heads are wrong,”
Just a racist running for cover under God’s skirts.
Coward.
December 15th, 2005 at 7:34 pmI agree with #91.
WHY all the fighting?
December 15th, 2005 at 9:03 pmI simply don’t understand it.
This is America!
To those wishing to give the OK to torture:
Would you have liked it if the enemy of WWII did it? Wouldn’t you have been outraged? What about the picture of the captives told to “pose” for the camera to show they were Ok… and the pic. the US got was of all of them flippin’ the bird (to show they were NOT OK)? Weren’t we horrified by that?
So what is different now? Just because WE are the bullies shouldn’t change a thing.
If it’s BAD, it’s BAD.
Period.
#91,
The problem is the administration is taking the ’sleazy lawyer’ approach and trying to find if there’s a loophole that will let them torture. They say because we aren’t at war with another ‘country’ called AlQaeda, that the torture rules don’t apply – as they are designed as rules between ‘countries’.
This new law is trying to ensure that all loop holes are closed – period. Or at least, that’s how it seems.
December 15th, 2005 at 9:25 pm#93,
December 15th, 2005 at 9:40 pmThe bird was in Korea when the USS Pueblo was captured in international waters.
Why do the Neocons hate the French so much? Did they not pass basic middle school history that taught us were it not for the French military assistance during our Revolutionary War, they would now be living in “The Greatest Colony left in the World”?
I doubt any of them have ever been to France to see that the people there are just as human as they are here.
All that unnecessary hate must be really heavy… no wonder they’re always so cranky…
December 16th, 2005 at 7:37 amProbably because they are UK/Irish stock and don’t know anyone who is French, thus making it easy to be gingoistic about them. Same with Arabs & Persians & orientals.
They are motivated by anger at others so they need a target. They prefer targets that don’t have last names that sound like theirs. But in a pinch, they’ll go after the domestic opposition, call ‘em traitors (Ann Coulter, Rush, M Savage, K Rove) and whip up their followers into a frenzy.
December 16th, 2005 at 10:03 amI think that like the Germans, we should require school children to travel as a part of their education. This culture we have of self-segregation isn’t working very well…
December 16th, 2005 at 10:20 amAs a woman, I’d like to denounce Ann Coulter and Condoleeza Rice. They should be sent to country without reproductive rights, without suffrage for women, and with laws that forbid women from reading books. Then we’ll see which political party they join when they return.
December 16th, 2005 at 10:24 amBush agrees to McCain’s torture ban
Humanity 1, Bush 0.
It’s yet another White House flip-flop, but at least it’s hypocrisy in the right direction. From The Washington Post
December 16th, 2005 at 12:20 pmSee we do have the ability to affect change without firing a single bullet…
December 16th, 2005 at 12:38 pm@ Moderate Voice — December 16, 2005 @ 12:20 pm
Bush agrees to McCain’s torture ban
Humanity 1, Bush 0.
What grounds does this guy have for suggesting this ?
After extensive coverage of the issue all that I can find on the ThinkProgress front page for what would be the most important development in the story is this:
Quote: “Reports today suggest that the White House may finally have recognized that its efforts to weaken or derail the McCain amendment will not succeed.”
This single sentence at the end of yet another article referring to the Whitehouse trying to derail this amendment is the lone admission that that’s stopped. And it doesn’t even state that.
Either the world’s newsmedia is wrong and has been for a day now or you need to accept you are reading yet another wingnut spin website.
Correct me if I’m wrong but the benchmark of wingnuttery Fox news generally doesn’t stop reporting on issues that turn out well for them just because their spin was wrong right ?
December 16th, 2005 at 6:47 pm#102
What grounds does this guy have for suggesting this ?
Uh – the truth? That not work for you? Okay, how about – sanity? Not familiar with it? Well, how about – facts?
December 16th, 2005 at 8:49 pmCongrats on being able to read all the way to line 1 pal. Next time try the whole post.
December 16th, 2005 at 11:24 pmMy Father was a blood and guts guy from WWII and I am a Viet Nam Vet and I saw my Father turn into a bigger and bigger delusional liar as his self-esteem sunk lower and lower as he sank into senile dementia. Seeing himself as a big bad street fighter, and “The holocaust was a hoax.” believer seemed to give him some sort of comfort. I appreciate his sacrifice in the 40’s, yet He didn’t seem to appreciate mine in the 60’s. He didn’t like facts getting in the way of his righteous hate. Oh how he loved to hate. He was a good guy, but politics and debate were blood sports, so he didn’t have any friends who didn’t share his madness. Thankfully we have “gun toting liberal” to show how rational good sense shows “attitude’ for the emotionally challenged being that he is.
December 17th, 2005 at 11:16 am#104 Tank
I know it’s hard for your testosterone-saturated neanderthal brain to comprehend this, but for the tenth time, I am a woman.
Wasn’t worth reading past the first line, but I did. I had an issue with the first line first. Thought I’d start with that and work my way down.
December 17th, 2005 at 12:52 pmahhh… 93…just a bit of a reality check…torture was used extensively by enemy combatants in World War I World War II Vietnam War..and the list goes on. We just are not ‘nice’ we human beings, are we?
December 18th, 2005 at 5:38 amAND if people don’t agree with us- well, we call them names, we want to do ugly things to them..makes me wonder how sincere the anti-torture group really is.
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