Yesterday, Bush Said Confirming NYT Story “Would Compromise Our Ability To Protect The Peopleâ€
Yesterday, Bush Said Confirming NYT Story “Would Compromise Our Ability To Protect The Peopleâ€
For 24 hours, Bush and other top administration officials refused to confirm the existence of their secret domestic spying program, arguing that doing so would endanger the American people:
President Bush, 12/16/05
I know that people are anxious to know the details of operations, they– people want me to comment about the veracity of the story. It’s the policy of this government, just not going do it, and the reason why is that because it would compromise our ability to protect the people.
Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 12/16/05:
This relates to intelligence activities and ongoing intelligence operations that are aimed at saving lives. And there’s a reason why we don’t get into discussing ongoing intelligence activities, because it could compromise our efforts to prevent attacks from happening.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, 12/16/05:
Well, I’m, again, not going to comment on intelligence activities because intelligence activities, by their very nature, are activities that are sensitive and that should not be compromised.
This morning, President Bush not only confirmed the existence of the program but provided details about how it worked.
This demonstrates that the administration’s initial refusal to comment was not motivated by security concerns. If that was the case Bush still wouldn’t have been able to comment this morning. Rather, the refusal to comment was a public relations strategy. When they decided it wasn’t working, they scrapped it and tried something else.
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I want the names and details of the non-terrorists they’ve been surveilling.
December 17th, 2005 at 4:45 pm“Compromise our efforts” will need to go on the list of Top GOP Sound Bites:
December 17th, 2005 at 4:54 pmThank GOD Democrats are not behind the wheel. Bush, asleep, can run this war better than any Democrat because of the left-wing’s vitrolic hatred which blurs their policy sense. Bush was not wiretapping average Americans – it was people like Muhammad Atta – the left’s post 9-11 Jesus Christ. He was trying to protect America – how disgusting that liberals suggest otherwise.
AND Judd, who cares about PR strategy? We are trying to fight a war agaisnt radical Islam.
December 17th, 2005 at 4:54 pmI think it provides proof that the President is not that bright, he was not prepared to talk about it with Jim.
December 17th, 2005 at 4:56 pmAt what point do think it’s ok to assume a little more from our leading foreign policy advocate? 5 years folks, where’s the Grokka? Painfully unarticulate doesn’t
December 17th, 2005 at 4:56 pmcut it for me. He should have to answer questions just like Tony Blair. Do I admire that
availability? Absolutely. His nuanced folksyness is great for jokes but this is our money and our lives. If things are so bad just tell us.You cannot blame the civil libertarians for being gaurded about domestic surveilance. If the dots connect call a judge. What do they make themselves available for? Remember this is the GOP who for years under WJC sounded the pannea WE dont need more gun laws we need the ones on the books enforced.The belt way sniper case follow the penalty for the gun shop owners defense arising from the fact that the weapon came from his shop in Wa. state. One of the 150 reported stolen or missing to the ATF from that owner. Well where is the federal enforcement?
lies, lies, iesThe King is Dead; Long Live…….?
December 17th, 2005 at 5:00 pmPolitical opponents=Terrorists=Peace activists=political opponents=terrorists=anti-war activists=political opponents=terrorists.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:00 pmThe president did not reveal details of the program. Judd is lying again.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:00 pmBush could have done this legally with the same results. It can only be because he wants to abuse his power. The precedent is already established for this behavior.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:02 pmJust again proves that Bush is a moron who has no idea what he’s doing. He should run home to daddy and get help.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:04 pmI’ve said it before. Bush being on Lehrer is a sure sign Bush is in serious trouble.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:05 pm#11. What do we want Bush on?
December 17th, 2005 at 5:08 pmThank you, New York Times!!!! If (or more likely when) we endure another terror attack, I will direct a portion of my anger at the “news”paper that describes itself with the quaint cliche “all the news thats fit to print”. But to be fair, I will share that anger with the “misunderstood” perpertrators. (Libs are fond of “sharing”, right?)
December 17th, 2005 at 5:10 pmBush being on Löwenbräu is a sure sign Bush is in serious trouble.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:13 pmYour speaking style lacks clarity, mighty aphrodite. Try fewer incidentals, more substance.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:16 pmMA. You have atracked so much of your anger towards the uncommited. Do you find your self there, wondering, where might i refine my thoughts. Please be more specfiic if you can about what part of stepping into hemmroid village dont you get.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:16 pmas much as i don’t like to think about it, i know in my heart of hearts that arthur’s right… we’re only seeing the tip of the iceberg…
—————
I find it close to impossible to believe that any adult in America didn’t think things like this have been going on for some time. Second, given all the other assaults on individual rights and the rule of law engaged in by the Bush administration — does anyone think for one second that this is even close to the worst of the abuses now taking place? If you do, I suggest you get back in touch with reality as quickly as possible.
————
i think the most shocking of the revelations are yet to come…
http://takeitpersonally.blogspot.com/
December 17th, 2005 at 5:17 pm#12,
December 17th, 2005 at 5:18 pmOn the way to Crawford for his retirement.
#9 – “Bush could have done this legally with the same results.” Comment by Karl Levin
December 17th, 2005 at 5:19 pm******Please, Karl, don’t tell me you wield sharp knives in your kitchen – you are a danger to yourself and others. Obviously, you know little, or more likely, nothing about which you speak. If NSA receives a tip that Omar the Crazed Tentmaker is planning on calling Sammy the Pi$$ed-off Syrian with operational modifications or updates, minutes count!!!
In college I quickly learned that quality music required no time/meter/bar/incidental signatures. That the music would tell you what to do as you journey through the notes. I find this phenemena consistant with other art forms, including speech. You just don’t have it mighty aphrodite.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:21 pm#16 – FlyBoy – Please read and edit your garbled posting. It is impossible to understand due to your poor typing , grammar and/or spelling. (One or two missed keystrokes is understandable, but this is a mess…..)
December 17th, 2005 at 5:22 pmI’ll bet the NSA gets most of it’s “tips” from the White House, mighty. But don’t worry, I’ll try to love Uncle Bush and his endless love for me and you.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:24 pmI’m so glad we elected the steady hand of Bush instead of the flip flopper Kerry.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:24 pmI find repeated use of commas a sure sign of schizophrenia.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:25 pmKarl – “brilliant” counter-argument…not at all on point, but what does an srtist need with a point? I had a feeling you were the PBS type….
December 17th, 2005 at 5:25 pmOH I beg to differ. I think you just love the attention whether it’s grammatically correct or not. Please refund any money anyone has lost because of my sloppy delivery. Back to your howling Luv?
December 17th, 2005 at 5:25 pm#19,
December 17th, 2005 at 5:25 pmW didn’t react to 9/11, and it was quite a while after the planes turned off their FAA transponders – like an hour from the first.
here is the stats on the FISA court and their rubber stamp proceedings.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:27 pmhttp://www.epic.org/privacy/wiretap/stats/fisa_stats.html
I think bush got a bit upset that ashcroft had one denied, the first, and it had to go to an appeals court, the first ever convened.
#25 Correction Karl – “artist”
December 17th, 2005 at 5:29 pmBlah blah blah blah!!!!!!!!!!
December 17th, 2005 at 5:29 pmGotta go!****!!!
The Mr. Aphrodite is having a candle light dinner under the floor tonight!, oops!,said too much! Cheerio!, Gotta go swallow/process the jewels!
“We are trying to fight a war agaisnt radical Islam.”
How odd, I thought it was a war against terrorism.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:32 pmMA RE: “minutes count” That rationalization has already been debunked. Try to keep up.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:33 pmThat’s my understanding also, Allen. Warrants obtained after-the-fact being a common practice.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:35 pm[...] Read more Bush [...]
December 17th, 2005 at 5:36 pmFISA Court judges are on 24/7 call and will, in fact, authorize telephone warrants that last until further documentation is seen. These warrants are not difficult to get.
Of the 4 rejected in 2003 (the first 4 to EVER be rejected) three were withdrawn and the fourth was appealed and won.
Now, what do you think happened to the 3 that were withdrawn? I am guessing that Bush signed presidential authorizations giving legal cover to NSA officials to conduct operations that were legally suspect. 3 of his 3 dozen?
December 17th, 2005 at 5:37 pmFISA allows federal officials to conduct survelliance prior to obtaining a warrant provided that a warrant could reasonably be secured, that it will filed immediately, etc. This is not some sort of difficult thing. It is, however, an annoyance/burden for DOJ lawyers as the numbers of questionable/more difficult cases get ramped up..
December 17th, 2005 at 5:39 pmsorry for the double post. I seem to have clicked twice. So sad.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:40 pmOn the topic of the article @ hand … I for one have never really been surprised when the, erm, consistency of the brown thing coiling out of Dubya’s mouth suddenly changed.
Disgusted, yes. Surprised, no.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:40 pmtrolls: ‘go hide underground,the terrust are a com’in,and the KILLER BEES!’ Spy saves American lives…why not just put chips in our necks to track us all?????..what a crock.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:41 pmHappy Impeachment mr SPYGATE scum.
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December 17th, 2005 at 5:46 pmYou know Bush is in serious trouble with the trolls and RabidReichWingNutWackJobs support/defend illegal activities.
Who was the (R)Congressmen I saw on the NightlyNews standing before the nations saying “… this was clearly illegal activity on the part of this administration…”? Oh ya, he was one of Bush’s strongest supporters. And he’s calling Bush out for the error in his ways.
BushCo is THE MOST FAILED Presidency ever.
It’s time to pack this lying thieving b*****d up, throw him onto a plane, and deliver him to the Hague to stand trail for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Oh, and those who defend Bush? Send them too.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:48 pmThe neocons suffer from oral diarrhea, everyone of them. W has has a severe case, and passed it on to Scottie.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:48 pmBush got caught with his hands in the cookie jar, hid in his room for a while then came storming out saying, “I have every right to do it without your permission, and I’ll keep doing it as often as I want, so there!”
December 17th, 2005 at 5:51 pmAnd speaking of having nothing to hide, I’d like one of these neocon chumps to answer one simple question — if They’re not doing anything wrong, why do they keep on trying to cover it all up? We don’t torture but we need an exemption, and now we won’t do it anymore. Jesus Christ, these people can’t keep their story straight for five minutes at a time.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:52 pmRather amazing how the trolls are allowed to change their handles and flood the threads, and no action by the host.
“We are trying to fight a war for radical Islam.”
So far, we have
• allowed the US to be attacked despite a mountain of warnings,
• attacked a disarmed country killing tens of thousands of innocent people whose family members now despise us,
• distributed 450 shoulder-fired missiles to hostiles,
• handed out 280 tons of high explosive,
• allowed the looting of cesium and strontium from unguarded nuclear material reserves in Iraq,
• allowed Bin Laden to escape when cornered in Tora Bora,
• become allies with Islamic terrorists Moahmar Kadafi and Islam Karimov,
• allowed Pakistan nuke-secrets scientist to continue to spread the Gospel of Good Nukes to N. Korea and Iran,
• allowed nuclear materials to remain unguarded in the former Soviet Union,
• outed an entire front operation of the CIA working in counter-proliferation, including outing one spy by name,
• outed the UK’s mole in Al Qaeda, who was in contact with operatives in the US planning another attack,
• fostered the largest opium crop in Afghanistan history, providing vast funds for international terrorism,
• harbored admitted terrorist Posada Carriles,
• installed terrorist U. Allawi as Prime Minister of illegally-invaded Iraq,
• forced our troops to fight next to multi-national mercenaries and rightwing deathsquads with no legal responsibilities,
• botched the domestic security to the tune of F’s and D-’s, spending nothing on the ports, among other issues left to hang,
• opened our borders and heartlands to tens of thousands of uninspected Mexican semi-trucks, each carrying 70 tons of who knows what,
• killed almost 100 journalists.
Oohrah, that’s really getting the ‘job’ done on America.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:52 pmYou know Bush is in serious trouble when the trolls and RabidReichWingNutWackJobs support/defend illegal activities.
Flying fingers. Sorry.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:53 pmLive Vote
Was President Bush right to authorize NSA eavesdropping on Americans? * 104376 responses
Yes; it was essential for national security
26%
No; it’s unconstitutional
69%
I’m not sure
4%
I don’t care
1%
Not a scientifically valid survey. Click to learn more.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:53 pmMinutes count, unless you’re reading “My Pet Goat.”
December 17th, 2005 at 5:54 pm#48,
December 17th, 2005 at 5:56 pmThe words were too big and the plot too thick.
I hope that one day the citizens of this country will be able to distinguish real ability from crude bluster, and will choose their Presidents on better criteria than her/him being the person “they’d rather have a beer with.”
I for one wouldn’t want to have a beer with Dubya: I’d be dead bored and I would keep having to explain my big words and frightening references to luxuries such as visual art and literature.
As far as him being made of plain baryonic matter and all, fine, plop him in the stool next to me so it doesn’t rock back and forth. I’m sure he’d be up to that task. So I’d sit next to him and drink beer but I’d rather someone interesting worked and voiced the rumpled, impotent vent figure we call George W. Bush.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:57 pm“When they decided it wasn’t working, they scrapped it and tried something else.”
I think when the NYT puts profits ahead of national security and still gets it wrong it’s incumbent on the White House to straighten it out. This has been done. What hasn’t been done is the hanging of the leakers. I think when we start hanging these traitors who tell the world our secrets it should be done on live television and make all the public broadcasting companies run it. Speaking of dead traitors I hear Jack Anderson went down for the dirt nap today.
Here’s the text of Bush’s radio address this morning just in case any of you losers want to know what’s really going on.
As the 9/11 Commission pointed out, it was clear that terrorists inside the United States were communicating with terrorists abroad before the September the 11th attacks, and the commission criticized our nation’s inability to uncover links between terrorists here at home and terrorists abroad. Two of the terrorist hijackers who flew a jet into the Pentagon, Nawaf al Hamzi and Khalid al Mihdhar, communicated while they were in the United States to other members of al Qaeda who were overseas. But we didn’t know they were here, until it was too late.
The authorization I gave the National Security Agency after September the 11th helped address that problem in a way that is fully consistent with my constitutional responsibilities and authorities. The activities I have authorized make it more likely that killers like these 9/11 hijackers will be identified and located in time. And the activities conducted under this authorization have helped detect and prevent possible terrorist attacks in the United States and abroad.
The activities I authorized are reviewed approximately every 45 days. Each review is based on a fresh intelligence assessment of terrorist threats to the continuity of our government and the threat of catastrophic damage to our homeland. During each assessment, previous activities under the authorization are reviewed. The review includes approval by our nation’s top legal officials, including the Attorney General and the Counsel to the President. I have reauthorized this program more than 30 times since the September the 11th attacks, and I intend to do so for as long as our nation faces a continuing threat from al Qaeda and related groups.
The NSA’s activities under this authorization are thoroughly reviewed by the Justice Department and NSA’s top legal officials, including NSA’s general counsel and inspector general. Leaders in Congress have been briefed more than a dozen times on this authorization and the activities conducted under it. Intelligence officials involved in this activity also receive extensive training to ensure they perform their duties consistent with the letter and intent of the authorization.
This authorization is a vital tool in our war against the terrorists. It is critical to saving American lives. The American people expect me to do everything in my power under our laws and Constitution to protect them and their civil liberties. And that is exactly what I will continue to do, so long as I’m the President of the United States.
Thank you.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/12/20051217.html
December 17th, 2005 at 5:58 pm#45 – GREAT list. Like you, I’d love to see how the trolls and disciples of Bush the Stupid defend against Truth.
That ANYONE would defend the actions of a man who has CLEARLY broken the law is insane!
It really amazes me. The NeoCon WackJobs wanted power soooo badly that they were willing to steal two elections (2000, 2004). Once in power, they did all the wrong things. They have shown time after time after time that they don’t know how to govern. They don’t know how to tell the truth. They don’t know how to deal in reality.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:59 pmLive Vote
December 17th, 2005 at 6:01 pmWas President Bush right to authorize NSA eavesdropping on Americans? * 104376 responses
Yes; it was essential for national security
26%
No; it’s unconstitutional
69%
I’m not sure
4%
I don’t care
1%
wallace, the transcript of the radio address is on the white house web site. “The activities I authorized are reviewed every 45 days. Each review is based on a fresh intelligence assessment of terrorist threats…….The review includes approval by our nation’s top legal officials, including the Attorney General and the Counsel to the President. I have authorized this program more than 30 times since the 9/11 attacks,and I intend to do so….”
Sounds kind of detailed to me,I can only conclude that Judd is correct and you lied about him lying.
Not that mighty aphrodite cares but the NYT published this story more than a year after the information came to them and only after negotiating with the government about certain parts of the story which the NYT chose not to publish as a result.
Carry on.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:01 pmI guess it being bold makes it legal?
December 17th, 2005 at 6:02 pmCheap excuses. That’s all this administration’s got.
I think forcing Chimpy McFlightsuit to write “I will take my PDB seriously” 100 times on the blackboard would be a much greater benefit to national security than illegally tapping phones.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:03 pmNot good for bush,
December 17th, 2005 at 6:03 pm
I just love how these idiot trolls are so willing to give up the very thing those evil terrorist hate about us…our freedoms!
December 17th, 2005 at 6:04 pm“Speaking of dead traitors I hear Jack Anderson went down for the dirt nap today.”
Awwwww, did he besmirch the armor of one of your testosterone-soaked, half-crazed heroes? How very sad.
The best I can say for GWB is that I will outlive him and be able to stand in a long line of people waiting to take a giant steaming shit on his grave.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:05 pm#58.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:05 pmJoin the military, go to IRAQ, HURRY Before YOU Lose your FREEDOMS!
It sure would be nice to have the names of the people in Congress he talked to. Why is that a secret?
December 17th, 2005 at 6:08 pmDear Friends,
My web site has been turned off before my contract was up, so please help me to fight this issue. 202-248-6560 or email childofgod7@rcn.com http://www.forgottenvets.com
December 17th, 2005 at 6:08 pmSincerly
John Evans childofgod7@rcn.com
So it was only detrimental to protecting the American public until they could get their story straight. They must have felt that, after a year, the NYT was not going to release the story, so they didn’t have something prepared. Today the Criminal-in-Chief not only confirms that he did it, he’s proud of himself and he would do it again.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:11 pmWill someone tell the man he is not Emperor, he is not dictator Hitler, he is not Caesar — he is the elected President who myust abide the American Constitution.
That a federal criminal is allowed to occupy the White House is a travesty.
MSNBC Home » Technology & Science » Science
December 17th, 2005 at 6:11 pmThe Northeast is moving south
Effects of glaciers still being felt, a millimeter at a time
#51,
December 17th, 2005 at 6:12 pmSo 36 days is not adequate warning. Why do North Korea, China, Iran, Pakistan and Russia invest so much in missiles? They could deliver their weapons in sampans or pole boats.
MSNBC Home » Technology & Science » Science
The Northeast is moving south
Effects of glaciers still being felt, a millimeter at a time
Related to earthquakes?
Compared to California, geologic activity east of the Rockies is tame. But significant earthquakes do occur.
Researchers have warned repeatedly in recent years that the New Madrid zone will eventually produce another devastating quake in what is now a highly populated region.
“If you look at the geological records, you can see there have been other events of similar magnitudes that have occurred approximately every 500 years or so, going back maybe 2000-3000 years,” said Glen Mattioli, a geophysicist at the University of Arkansas involved in the study. “So it’s that combination of things that gives rise to the idea that we could have another event of some magnitude that is undetermined.”
Geologists expect an eventual earthquake in the New Madrid zone as strong as magnitude-8.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:15 pmThe trolls keep coming here because some of the posters here keep feeding them. This has been discussed before, obviously to little effect.
NYT reports:
But this seems to contradict Bush’s rationale and suggests that law enforcement and official bungling – not a lack of administrative tools, was to blame.
A more sinister view of the ‘bungling’.
Anybody familiar with the specifics of these two individuals and their significance in this scenario?
Here’s some Plamegate news for all Rove haters…
December 17th, 2005 at 6:16 pmDecember 17th, 2005 at 6:17 pm
If only King Kong was real, and Republicans tasted like bananas
December 17th, 2005 at 6:17 pmIt’s laughable to read the comments form the extreme right wing trolls here who would so readily discard the Constitution because their leader says it’s OK.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:18 pmImagine in the future, what parts of the Constitution they would yearn for if their rights were suddenly abridged because of the vitriol they spew. They can don their little brown shirts and walk in lock step now because they think it makes them patriotic, but when their leaders find something wrong with the way they march or the way they salute, they will reach for their rights under the Constitution pretty quick.
#69,
December 17th, 2005 at 6:26 pmMike,
I would change the reference towards Republicans to Neocons and DINOs.
#47
wwallace- You have helped to confirm with the poll why the bubble president is the worst we have in this country.
I knew you’d see things our way ;)
December 17th, 2005 at 6:31 pm#59.
Glenn, I’d be in the same line as you. But when we get to Bubble Boy’s grave don’t forget to piss, then shit on his grave. That way, that grave will have a smell only the trolls will love. ;)
December 17th, 2005 at 6:36 pm[Comment deleted by admin.]
December 17th, 2005 at 6:40 pm#8, below are direct quotes from today’s Presidential Weekly Address. Sound like specific details to me.
In the weeks following the terrorist attacks on our nation, I authorized the National Security Agency, consistent with U.S. law and the Constitution, to intercept the international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations. Before we intercept these communications, the government must have information that establishes a clear link to these terrorist networks.
This is a highly classified program that is crucial to our national security. Its purpose is to detect and prevent terrorist attacks against the United States, our friends and allies.
The activities I authorized are reviewed approximately every 45 days. Each review is based on a fresh intelligence assessment of terrorist threats to the continuity of our government and the threat of catastrophic damage to our homeland. During each assessment, previous activities under the authorization are reviewed. The review includes approval by our nation’s top legal officials, including the Attorney General and the Counsel to the President. I have reauthorized this program more than 30 times since the September the 11th attacks, and I intend to do so for as long as our nation faces a continuing threat from al Qaeda and related groups.
The NSA’s activities under this authorization are thoroughly reviewed by the Justice Department and NSA’s top legal officials, including NSA’s general counsel and inspector general. Leaders in Congress have been briefed more than a dozen times on this authorization and the activities conducted under it. Intelligence officials involved in this activity also receive extensive training to ensure they perform their duties consistent with the letter and intent of the authorization.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:40 pm#73.
JIMBO -
It’s going to be a long line and a long wait – worth it, though.
But I agree, a liquid component will make it more likely that the combined effluvia will leach down into the soil and (I hope) utterly soil whatever ragged, worm-scorned threads of rotted, chickenhawk, privileged-and-bored fratboy flesh remain on his rubbery bones.
But how do I _really_ feel … ?
December 17th, 2005 at 6:43 pm#19, this could still have been accomplished legally even with minutes counting. The AG is allowed to begin these proceedings immediately in cases where urgency is necessary as long as the court who decides the warrant is notified within 72 hours. The problem is the administration didn’t even follow the law designed to allow them to do this in your incredibly racist scenario.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:44 pmIt seems that Bush was never taught about that little document that we call the Bill of Rights while studying at Yale. How convenient for him.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:49 pm#28, thanks for the stats! Just proves what was on the news yesterday — the court, with very few exceptions, approves every warrant request put before it.
That, #19, is why your argument is ridiculous.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:51 pmHotline On Call notes that the law required the White House to notify the leaders of the House and Senate about the domestic surveillance program confirmed earlier by President Bush.
House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) admited she knew about it. Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid’s (D-NV)office hasn’t responded yet.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:52 pmThe members of Congress who were briefed by Bush on the secret spying program all these years are in effect accomplices to a crime. Just because a few congressmen knew about it doesn’t make it legal. Bush still had the obligation to follow the law and procedures specified, including obtaining a court order in order to spy on US citizens. What Bush declared today is that being president gives him the right to do whatever he pleases as long as he justifies it in the name of his “War on Terror.”
December 17th, 2005 at 6:54 pm#78,
December 17th, 2005 at 6:55 pmW was in the BizAdmin program where they teach you to lie, cheat and steal. Why he did not get straight A’s escapes me. Maybe he was cutting brush – more likely smoking grass.
Yea that pesky truth thingy is always gettin in the way, ain’t it Mr Bush?
December 17th, 2005 at 7:00 pm#44, Interesting point. Goes hand in hand with today’s conservative talking point of “If you’re not doing anything wrong, why are you worried about being observed?”
Guess the same can be said of this administration, huh? If they’re not doing anything wrong, why do they keep trying to hide it?
December 17th, 2005 at 7:02 pmI do not understand why a citizen would side with any particular administration against his fellow citizens. Have we become a nation of sheep? The idea that America now faces a greater threat than at any time in our history is absurd. There is no reason to suspend our once protected civil liberties, there was no reason for the behemoth Department of Homeland Security, (117,000 government employees.) Our intelligence agencies got their wake-up call. They would not make the same mistake again, if indeed it was a mistake. There are only two reasons for the existence of the DHS, one was to create a distraction from the administration’s horrible blunder and the other was to spy on Americans. GWB and his administration do not deserve the right to torture, nor the right to spy on Americans who are not suspected of committing a crime, nor should they have the right to treat all Americans as suspects. This is not supposed to be an imitation of the Soviet Union’s manner of coping with the problems that face our society. Yes, there are risks to living in a free society, but I much prefer those risks to tyranny. We are not all cowards.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:02 pm#51…
Shall we start with those who told the world about our secret CIA agent Valerie Plame?
And, since you selectively included text of the Presidential Weekly Address, here are his comments that also apply:
“Yesterday the existence of this secret program was revealed in media reports, after being improperly provided to news organizations. As a result, our enemies have learned information they should not have, and the unauthorized disclosure of this effort damages our national security and puts our citizens at risk. Revealing classified information is illegal, alerts our enemies, and endangers our country.”
It was said IMMEDIATELY preceeding what you included in your post, and ironically could just as easily apply to the Plame case.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:11 pmNow hear this Mr.Bush can run again for the second term,
December 17th, 2005 at 7:14 pmyou know why?
The first term did’nt count as he was appointed by the supreme court, last election he was elected as the president for the first time therefore legally he can run again.
As Mr. Bush have said God tells him to do this or say that!Who knows may be what ever he is saying and doing is being told by God??? please explore!
All I can say is may we all wake up before its to late.
#61, the Congressmen who were briefed were unable to tell anyone about the program because doing so would violate the Espionage Act and put them in legal jeopardy.
Notice that Bush didn’t mention that some of the people notified reportedly opposed the measure, but were unable to do anything about it, including bring it to light for the above reason.
It reminds me of how Bush always talks about things being bipartisan because Zell Miller or Joe Lieberman voted with Republicans. One Democrat and 50+ Republicans does NOT make something bipartisan. He also has a tendency to say something passed through Congress unanimously on things where no recorded votes were required so there’s no way to verify it. I don’t understand why people don’t call him on this crap.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:17 pmI think the real story here, is that every time the Bush admin is in trouble for something, they pull the old, “you’re endangering the mission” card.
It seems as if everything is endangering the mission.
Man someone would have to be really, really stupid to swallow that over and over.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:17 pmJust how the hell does it hurt our national security to know that Bush actually gave the National Security Agency permission to spy on us, officially, (or was it unofficially)?
Do you honestly think terrorists are sitting there saying, “gee Achmed, don’t worry, they can’t listen to your side of the conversation, speak freely my friend.”?
December 17th, 2005 at 7:20 pmIf the Democrats have their way, they will.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:22 pm#89, meet #2. You don’t get any more stupid than that.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:22 pmI think it would be safe to assume the terrorists already had a pretty good idea that the NSA was out to get them.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:22 pmSorry, I stand corrected. “wwallace” at #91 is even more of a waterhead.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:23 pm#51, so lets see what those pesky hijackers are up to today!
9:39 a.m. Crashed into Pentagon
Khalid Almihdhar
Khalid Almihdhar
Still Alive2
Lived w/FBI20 Majed Moqed
Majed Moqed Nawaf Alhazmi
Nawaf Alhazmi
Lived w/FBI20 Salem Alhazmi
Salem Alhazmi
Still Alive6
BL Video12 Hani Hanjour
Hani Hanjour
Lacked alleged
flying ability19
If you would like to see them here is the link.
http://www.welfarestate.com/911/
So you trust the 911 Commission, which was put in place and hand picked by Bush? Even thought they were only allowed to investigate what went wrong, and not the facts to how things that are out of place happened?
You are living in some kind of fantasy world. Maybe you should share what your on so the rest of us won’t give a damn either.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:24 pmJust to review, we invaded Iraq because it was: a country ruled by a dictator with no regard for domestic or international law, fake elections with predetermined outcomes, a rubber stamp legislature and puppet courts, had weapons of mass destruction and imprisons and tortures its perceived enemies.
Maybe Canada can invade us to spread democracy here.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:25 pmShemp, calling me names will never change any of the facts I’ve posted.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:25 pmI don’t think any democrats want terrorists to speak freely on our phones. But that’s why there are warrants, judges, process and law.
I know they are incumberences to you, but that’s the price of liberty.
Don’t like it? Move to Russia.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:26 pm#70, think this means they’ll have to change their mantra about wanting someone who will strictly interpret the Constitution for the Supreme Court? They could change it to wanting someone who will strictly interpret Bush’s interpretation of the Constitution.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:26 pmBut don’t dare question liberals’ patriotism! LOL
December 17th, 2005 at 7:27 pmMaybe Canada can invade us to spread democracy here.
Comment by Impeach Bush
Maybe Canada will Impeach Bush, accompanied by the entire EU.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:27 pm#97,
December 17th, 2005 at 7:27 pmSo please post two facts so cannot change them – waiting.
But don’t dare question liberals’ patriotism! LOL
Comment by wwallace — December 17, 2005 @ 7:27 pm
wwallace, sorry but your dumber than you sound.
You knew he was being ironic.
This is how you thugs distort the facts.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:28 pmAnd BTW, if it does happen, what would you do?
I mean it, suppose the EU decides that “regime change” is critical to America.
What would you do?
December 17th, 2005 at 7:30 pmIf you are half the warrior you try to sound like, you would do exactly what the Iraqi insurgency is doing today.
You’d fight for your freedom, to choose good or evil, yourself.
That’s what you’d do.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:31 pmYou can’t force democracy down peoples throats, and you can’t bring democracy to your own people, by spying on them.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:32 pm#104, I used to ask people that same question at the start of the Iraq invasion when they were all so Toby Keith gung-ho on kicking butt. A pre-emptive war against a country with weapons of mass destruction that could be used against other countries… what if someone decided to pre-emptively invade OUR COUNTRY? They’d usually give the “We’ll kick their ass” response. Of course, none of those folks are fighting the Iraq invasion from anywhere but their comfy sofas.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:35 pmPersonally, I think an invasion of the US is imminent.
I have written lengthy posts on this very topic. We need to stop worrying about all the terrorists, and start learning to get along with our neighbors.
The EU is investigating us right now for international war crimes. The new Chinese-Russo alliance is an ever growing threat, and have participated in the first ever joint operations that could easily be seen as practice for their own invasion of Iraq, or to repel US forces from Taiwan.
The Peoples Liberation Army is millions strong, with an ever increasing naval build up as well as increasing Air defense spending and of course Russia has massive firepower and nuclear capability, not to mention a lot of soldiers.
Throw in the North Korean Army, and all we got left is Dr. Strangebush.
You ready for Armageddon? Cause they are.
And Bush, and everyone who drank the Kool-Aid is ready to usher in the new millennium with one big loud final bang.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:45 pmDr. Strangebush, or how I learned to love the BUM.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:48 pmDS, I like the “none of those folks are fighting the Iraq invasion from anywhere but their comfy sofas.” The good ole chickenhawk argument. It’s always a good one. I find it ironic since the logiical extension of the argument is that only those in the military should be able to determine what the U.S. does with the military. I am guessing you wouldn’t like the majority of the responses from military people.
By the way, I like idea of this post. So Think Progress is by default saying that the NYT should not have published the story?
December 17th, 2005 at 7:49 pmThe W regime planned for regime change in Iraq even before it took office. Follow this link:
December 17th, 2005 at 7:49 pmhttp://www.itszone.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=1970&start=0 in order to see there were rumblings well before 9/11/2001.
You can’t force democracy down people’s throat’s, and you can’t bring democracy to your own people by spying on them.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:56 pm#98 – “I don’t think any democrats want terrorists to speak freely on our phones. But that’s why there are warrants, judges, process and law.” – WorFEus
December 17th, 2005 at 8:02 pm****** “I don’t think?….” I don’t know, WorFEus, the way so many guilt-ridden Dems “think”, that’s quite a claim? When I hear too many college profs sympathize with the plight of the poor, benighted terrorists – I feel ill. Damn, with that much angst about their countries history, capitalism, inequitites, global warming, carbon footprints, grizzly bears, support of Israel, ANWR, gay marriage, etc. ad nauseum I wouldn’t be surprised if a few of the “enlightened” Dems or RCP’ers helped Al Zawahiri draw up the plans.
KING george has spoken he is OMNIPOTENT . He is the LAW .He can do as he damn well please . There no CONSTITUTION no CONGRESS no SUPREME COURT . Next he he will call himself the american JESUS CHRIST .He is BIG DADDY
December 17th, 2005 at 8:02 pmWe know better he puts his pants the same way we do . He takes a merde the same way we do . In his case he may take longer , FOR HE IS FULL OF IT.
WorFEus – again we FORCED the South to remain in the Union. History is larger than your lifetime.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:04 pmWhat a laugh: ?we are better with Bush than flip-flopper Kerry! Bush has always been the flip flopper! This last week alone Bush has flip-flopped on two things: 1) not talking about his NSA game and 2) not talking about Republicans under indictment. Typical Rove – accuse the other guy first of what you yourself do! (e.g., blame game, etc.)
December 17th, 2005 at 8:04 pmOk, you’re starting to loose those respect points Aprhodite.
Thats a red herring and you know it. No one in here, or anyone anywhere supports terrorists and implying it is hubris.
And the Iraqi insurgency are not terrorists.
They’re the Iraqi people we said we were not going there to kill.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:06 pm#109 – WE THE PEOPLE need to see the complete list of “suspects†of the NSA, CIA, FBI, and Pentagon BECAUSE either one of two things is true…” – Linda
December 17th, 2005 at 8:11 pm****** Dear Linda – Good news!! You’ve been nominated to be the official “watcher” of named terror suspects!! Comparing terror suspects to pedophiles is undoubtedly THE MOST ridiculous thing I’ve read here this afternoon – Congratulations!!! Your reasoning is evidence that we need to keep a close tabs on radical barbarians. Now, please tell me you don’t teach impressionable young minds. You are forgiven for your naivete if, and only if, you are a college student going to school on Mom and Dad’s dime.
again we FORCED the South to remain in the Union
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Last time I checked there professor, Iraq was not affixed to the lower half of our continent.
Nice try.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:14 pmBTW, the point here of this blog is that everytime we learn that the President did something wrong or illegal, he turns to the “were at war speech”.
And, “you’re hurtin the troops”.
If you support that then no one can help you.
You need a brain transplant or something.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:19 pmRight wing ignorance (this means you, mighty aphrodite) is truly a wonderous thing to behold…
As several have pointed out, to have NSA spy on Americans all Bush needed was a warrent from the FISA Court, a court which essentially has never refused a warrent.
U.S. Federal law clearly says doing so without a warrent, or ordering it done, is a felony (each count) punishable by 5yrs in the slammer. Additionally, the oath Bush took said he would support/defend the Constitution, including that little part that said he would obey the laws of the U.S.
He’s now admitted violating his oath, the Constitution, and Federal law…
Oh, and as someone who worked (indirectly) for NSA for 15yrs, may I point out the appropriate US Directives on the issue very clearly say it is a crime to target US citizens and/or corporations without a warrent. It also says if you inadvertently hear US citizens/corporations or about US citizens/corporations, there are strict rules on how to handle it so as to NOT spread the info around. Finally, the Directive also clearly spells out that if you hear anything concerning a threat against the US, a US citizen, or a US corporation, you can spy as long as they are talking about it and pass it along to DIA/CIA/FBI and anyone else appropriate. But if you hear “Omar the Tentmaker” calling “Sammi the Syrian”, well, since they ain’t Americans you ain’t breaking any laws collecting on them! So your argument is a typical conservative strawman position!
It’ll be interesting to see how the GOP handle this…I mean, if lying under oath about your personal sex life calls for impeachment, at a minimum admitting to the commission of several thousand felonies should at least result in impeachment and jail time, shouldn’t it?
Or will this be more IOKIYAR???
December 17th, 2005 at 8:20 pm#123, Bush will use the Cheney defense: I never, never said that. And I don’t care if you have tape showing otherwise.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:26 pmSo we if listen to Bush we need to give up our freedom in order to preserve it? What a crock of s**t! Does he realize that we are smarter than him and his attempt at hypnosis falls on deaf ears. We ain’t gonna go for it, chief.
If Bushco had any brains behind it they would fight to maintain our freedoms so we could flaunt it to the world that despite 9/11 we didn’t let the terrorist take away our way of life. I would bet that Bush’s approval rating would be through the roof if he did that.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:33 pmhttp://www.epic.org/privacy/wiretap/hr2883.html
Scroll to Sec 314 “Technical Ammendments”
There is, at present, a 72 hour window in which the feds can do WHATEVER they wish WITHOUT A WARRANT before an application for such a warrant must be lodged with FISA.
This renders all arguments relating to the inconvenience of getting warrants when there are only ‘minutes to act’ or the ‘ticking bomb’ excuse. The arguments do not deserve to be heard.
Prior to 01 the feds had a 24 hour window. Please note that a 72 hour window is actually much more – DOJ can use procedural motions to delay an actual hearing on the warrant for at least another 24 hours.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:34 pmThe last time a president was caught spying on other americans without a warrant, the event was called watergate!
December 17th, 2005 at 8:36 pm“Last time I checked there professor, Iraq was not affixed to the lower half of our continent” – WorFEus
WorFeus – Bless your heart – just when I was starting to respect you a “smidgin” and dislike you less! I know related concepts(”will of the people” and “democracy”) are difficult considering downhill slide of English and Philosophy curriculum. You neglected to discuss the suspension of Habeus Corpus and Japanese internment camps – topics even progs might find on point
December 17th, 2005 at 8:41 pmthat despite 9/11 we didn’t let the terrorist take away our way of life
ahh would’nt that have been nice. I thought that was where we were going after 911. But it didn’t work out that way did it.
That ship has already sailed.
Oh well…
December 17th, 2005 at 8:44 pmChuckLA said it right.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:44 pmOk Aphrodite, the respect is returning.
Nice try.
You neglected to discuss the suspension of Habeus Corpus and Japanese internment camps – topics even progs might find on point
Comment by mighty aphrodite — December 17, 2005 @ 8:41 pm
Actually I did already address this, when I said this AINT WW2.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:46 pmThis little police occupation, where we are using our soldiers as bait to root out an insurgency, an insurgency that is populated by the very people we supposedly went there to help, this little police occupation has absolutely NOTHING to do with WW2, unless of course you’re looking inside of our shores, and the striking similarites between the rise of the little corporal, and the rise of the little Lt.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:48 pm#123 – POOr zoooomie – To think you thought you KNEW something important…. The average speed of the FISA court is one day. Know whence you….unless you are a naive andor ignorant and/or smug prog.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:49 pmWe lost 3000 people on 911.
We got 300,000 Million left.
I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but I know one of the answers is not to restrict the rights, privleges and freedoms, and turn national defense agencies against our own, under the supposed guise of keeping us safe.
No thanks, don’t try to sell it to me. I’m can honestly say I am more afraid of my own government, then I have ever been, or likely ever will be, of a terrorist.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:51 pmDOES ANYONE REALIZE HOW VULNERABLE WE ARE?
I’m sure I’m not the only one who realizes just how vulnerable our country is right now – but who’s discussing it?
The though occurred to me that if enough countries decided that they had had enough of our regime and banded together militarily we’d be in a world of hurt. We can’t even stop the insurgency in Iraq and are still monkeying around in Afghanistan. What would the result be if 20 or 30 countries decided to take us on in the Middle East? (let’s pray russia and china aren’t part of that group)
You could say that we’d kick all their butts, but could we? First off, the draft would go into effect immediately and they’d have to pull all resources from all over the world. Second, the economic reprocussions would devastate our economy and third, we’d have to pull all National Guard troops from the homeland leaving us even more vulnerable at home.
The point is that our President and his party/administration have left us in a most precarious position. Bush has done everything the terrorists hoped he would do. Not only has he fallen for every trap set for him by Bin Laden, but he’s done it ten fold better than could have been expected. We’re as polorized as a country can be, we walked right into Iraq and were embarrassed and now we find that W has betrayed our sacred constition without hesitation and we’re now spying on our own without legal merit and torturing people in secret prisons around the world. We’ve created more terrorists world wide than we could possibly kill in 20 years and had 300,000 troops in Iraq. We alienated the rest of the world with this f’d up war and that’s where he really did it to us.
I’ll stop rambling, just voicing my thoughts….
December 17th, 2005 at 8:54 pm“And the Iraqi insurgency are not terrorists.” – According to WorFEus
December 17th, 2005 at 8:55 pmWell, I guess they’re just “misunderstood” murderers.
Great points, but next time you may wanna turn off the all bold. Makes it hard to follow.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:56 pmsorry bout the bold…got to typing and forgot!
December 17th, 2005 at 8:57 pmWell, I guess they’re just “misunderstood†murderers.
Comment by mighty aphrodite —
So tell me Aphrodite, since you are in so truthful a mood tonight, tell me the truth.
What would you do, if the EU invaded our country to implement “regime change”
They are benevolant, have the best of intentions, and intend on leaving, once we elect a government from their “approved” list.
What would you do?
December 17th, 2005 at 8:58 pmTheme to Jeopardy playing.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:04 pm“And the Iraqi insurgency are not terrorists.†– According to WorFEus
Well, I guess they’re just “misunderstood†murderers.
Comment by mighty aphrodite ”
Ironic, because by your definition the british would have called David Ben Gurion a ‘misunderstood murderer/terrorist’ as well. I bet lots of arabs would agree with you…
December 17th, 2005 at 9:19 pm“#123 – POOr zoooomie – To think you thought you KNEW something important…. The average speed of the FISA court is one day. Know whence you….unless you are a naive andor ignorant and/or smug prog.
Comment by mighty aphrodite”
And yet the NSA has a 3 day window of ’spying’ they can do before FISA approval is required. So you just confirmed that there was no need to circumvent the constitution, and yet it was done 30 times. Thanks for PROVING that Bush is a traitor to his oath to the consitution and should be impeached. I agree with you MightyTranny, he doesn’t deserve to be president, just like you don’t deserve american citizenship.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:21 pmJeopardy music still playing
December 17th, 2005 at 9:23 pmworfeus,
That music will play a long time. Terrorists and murderous souls like mighty tranny can’t put themselves in the shoes of others. It’s part of her psychosis.
People who are like him/her and prone to violent thoughts and wishes rarely can sympathize with their victims. Her psychosis is in fact very similar to that of Osama. He ‘laughed’ about the 9/11 victims in a remarkably similar way to how mightyTranny and mizzWrong laughed about dying palestinians, and the other day she revelled in Tookie being killed. The fact that they can’t sympathize with the dead and dying, and that they revel in those deaths shows that they are psychotic and incapable of seeing the world in a normal way.
This is typical of pathological people like mightyTranny, and why they’re drawn to terrorism – just like she is.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:30 pmThem Quakers are a dangerous bunch and you got to keep a sharp eye on them peace activists old ladys with blue hair.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:35 pm~~~~~~~~~~
Come one, come all to the Mexican border. We got low paying jobs for you!
Worfeus says:
Yeah, that’s what the head-hackers like Zarqawi are doing, fighting for freedom! But don’t question liberals’ patriotism! And they support our troops! LOL
December 17th, 2005 at 9:35 pmIn the 1770’s we calld them patriots.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:38 pmWWallace tto hhis kkids.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:40 pm“SSee aalmost aany aaristocrat ccan ggrow uup tto bee KKing iin AAmerica.”
WALLACE SAID THAT WORFEUS SAID
you would do exactly what the Iraqi insurgency is doing today.
You’d fight for your freedom,…
wwallace,
If your gonna quote me then quote me. Don’t make up crap.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:49 pmwwallace is a terrorist stalker and head hacker who hates america and our troops :()
December 17th, 2005 at 9:49 pmwwallace is retarded enough to think zarqawi (a jordanian) is iraqi. LOL!!!!
December 17th, 2005 at 9:51 pmwwallace makes things up, because he ran out of his prescription of anti-psychotic medication that keeps him from hearing voices :()
December 17th, 2005 at 9:52 pmWhat I said was,
December 17th, 2005 at 9:52 pm
Worfeus, I copied and pasted your exact words, why lie about soemething so easily checked right here? That’s just nuts.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:54 pmWorfeus claimed I made up his assertion that the al Qaeda terrorists in Iraq “fight for freedom”, but then he repeated his assertion in #153. Crazy.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:57 pmwwallace lies because he’s just nuts. LOL
December 17th, 2005 at 9:57 pmBut since you walked into it, I pose the same question to you, Sir William Wallace,
If the EU decides that “regime change†is critical to America and invades our shores to replace our government.
They are benevolant, and only here to help.
They will overthrow our government, and allow us to vote in a new government made up of our own people, as long as they are on the approved list, and then supposedly leave.
What would you do?
December 17th, 2005 at 9:57 pmDecember 17th, 2005 at 9:58 pm
wwallace made his assertions that all iraqis who fight are al qaeda, and then accused worfeus of making this same assertion.
wwallace lied because he hates the troops and wants them to die!
wwallace is just nuts!
December 17th, 2005 at 9:58 pmwwallace claimed zarqawi was an iraqi. wwallace lied :()
December 17th, 2005 at 9:59 pmwwallace stalks liberals because no one will date her :()
December 17th, 2005 at 10:00 pmThis administration is like watching a popular TV show of the late 40’s and early 50’s.
December 17th, 2005 at 10:08 pmHere we have the cast:
Howdy Dowdy played by GWB (the puppet)
Buffalo Bob played by Dickie boy (the puppet master)
Mr. Buster played by Rummy
Dilly Dally Played by Brownie (or countless others)
Princess SummerFallWinterSpring played by KindOfSleezey
Clarabell played by the Rover
Inspector Fadoozle played by Ashcroft
and, of course, Flub-a-Dub played by Joe LIEberman
December 17th, 2005 at 10:13 pm
FISA Court judges are on 24/7 call and will, in fact, authorize telephone warrants that last until further documentation is seen. These warrants are not difficult to get.
Of the 4 rejected in 2003 (the first 4 to EVER be rejected) three were withdrawn and the fourth was appealed and won.
Now, what do you think happened to the 3 that were withdrawn? I am guessing that Bush signed presidential authorizations giving legal cover to NSA officials to conduct operations that were legally suspect. 3 of his 3 dozen?
Comment by James — December 17, 2005 @ 5:37 pm
James I don’t think talking about FISA actually helps this. When you start talking about 3 dozen people it is hard to portray this as all Americans have been spied on. Take note that the only report that this occurred from the NYT specifies that the numbers tapped were those linked to al-Qaida and came out of the 9/11 investigations. You will notice that this needs to be portrayed as being all Americans in order to generate the level of support among the mainstream required to push this issue home as something effecting us all.
December 17th, 2005 at 10:13 pmTry to be less specific in future.
#163,
December 17th, 2005 at 10:21 pmIf that refers to #162, I’m not, I’m scared!
Yea, I know, but me pa taught me to laugh when I was scared :|
December 17th, 2005 at 10:23 pmDavidK,
How do we know who it was used against? We know the administration is willing to violate the law, and spy without a warrant. It was also disclosed this week that the pentagon similarly spied on americans without warrants. The problem is that you/we have no idea how far the administration is willing to go, as they’ve shown NO self restraint that anyone can see.
If this administration is willing to treat pascifist quakers as terrorist threats and spy on them as was disclosed this week – then clearly they have grounding in reality, and no respect for law or american values. We frankly don’t know how many people the NSA spied on, because there has been no investigation – has there?
December 17th, 2005 at 10:25 pmROFL – Aphro, you crack me up, playing this winger game of trying to divert the conversation anywhere except to the facts!
US Directives says anyone who is NOT an American can be targeted ANYTIME. You don’t need FISA warrents, you don’t need presidential unconstitutional directives. US Directives say any conversation INCLUDING or ABOUT Americans that includes a threat MUST be collected! The ONLY thing US Directives ban is TARGETTING US citizens/companies without a warrent. And as we all know now (except apparently you), FISA allows 72hrs of targetting without a warrent…and effectively no warrent request has ever been denied.
So…if Omar and Sammi (the non-Americans) are talking about attacking the US, an American or a US company, NSA can copy to their hearts content…if Omar and Sammi (the non-Americans) are talking about ANYTHING, NSA can target to the hearts content…if Omar and Sammi (the non-Americans) and George, their American buddy, are talking about attacking America, NSA can collect to cover the threat, and for 72hrs thereafter can collect against George before they need to ask for a FISA warrent, which they know they’ll get, no questions asked…Omar and Sammi are always fair game…
So…Bush has confessed to multiple felonies and violations of US law that were totally unnecessary, unless his reason was yet another attempt to undermine the basics of democracy!
Oh, and FYI – according to what I’ve read, the NSA target list has roughly 500 names on it (of Americans they are targetting), with several names going on and coming off every week, for four years. While Dumbya has extended his order to break the law 30 times, it was not against just 30 people. It was against more than 500 people, possibly several thousand people all told.
And still – if lying under oath warrents impeachment, are conservatives seriously trying to argue hundreds of self-confessed felonies don’t warrent impeachment?!?!?! A little bit of hypocrisy, isn’t it?
Indeed, right-winger Bob Barr was on TV earlier calling for an independent investigation of Bush on this, and impeachment if it turns out to be true!
December 17th, 2005 at 10:27 pmCan never sink the smallest ship unless it gets inside.
And all the evil in the world the blackest kind of sin
Can never harm you the least bit unless you let it in
December 17th, 2005 at 10:28 pm
#166,
December 17th, 2005 at 10:28 pmMy pa taught me to put on the brown pants. If you don’t know the jpke, I can post it for you.
The word is joke on line 2.
December 17th, 2005 at 10:29 pmPlease do. WORFEUS luv’s a good joke.
December 17th, 2005 at 10:32 pmOK -
Long ago, when sailing ships ruled the sea, this captain and his crew were always in danger of being boarded by pirates from a pirate ship.
One day while they were sailing, they saw that a pirate ship had sent a boarding party to try and board their ship. The crew became worried, but the Captain was calm.
He bellowed to his First Mate, “Bring me my red shirt!”
The First Mate quickly got the Captain’s red shirt, which the captain put on. Then he led his crew into battle against the mean pirates. Although there were some casualties among the crew, the pirates were defeated.
Later that day, the lookout screamed that there were two pirate vessels sending two boarding parties towards their ship. The crew was nervous, but the Captain, calm as ever, bellowed, “Bring me my red shirt!” And once again the battle was on!
The Captain and his crew fought off the boarding parties, though this time more casualties occurred.
Weary from the battles, the men sat around on deck that night recounting the day’s events when an ensign looked at the Captain and asked, “Sir, why did you call for your red shirt before the battle?”
The Captain, giving the ensign a look that only a captain can give, explained, “If I am wounded in battle, the red shirt does not show the blood, so you men will continue to fight unafraid.” The men sat in silence. They were amazed at the courage of such a man.
As dawn came the next morning, the lookout screamed that there were pirate ships, 10 of them, all with boarding parties on their way. The men became silent and looked to the Captain, their leader, for his usual command.
The Captain, calm as ever, bellowed, ‘Bring me my brown pants!!!’
December 17th, 2005 at 10:34 pmSo didn’t Bush then compromise national security by revealing that he’s been spying on Joe Sixpack over his ties to al Qaida?
December 17th, 2005 at 10:38 pmHoly crap LMAO, that’s freakin hilarious…..Walt
December 17th, 2005 at 10:41 pm#175,
December 17th, 2005 at 10:55 pmAnd it’s an old joke! I first heard it in 1960 or so in college from my Naval ROTC instructor.
I think I heard it before, but never so well told.
That’s hilarious.
December 17th, 2005 at 10:57 pmyou da man Walt
December 17th, 2005 at 10:57 pm#164 DavidK
You appear to have missed the issue – perhaps by not reading the actual news reports. There is an executive order outstanding that allows warantless searches. That is seperate from George Bush authorizing three dozen searches under this executive order. His authorization was necessary because a NSA official wanted it for legal cover.
The 3 dozen referred to are a minority of the warantless surveillances performed under this secret executive order. The 3 dozen are important because George Bush was authorizing personal cover.
You also failed to note that George Bush can use FISA, a rubber stamp, and still snoop for 72 hours prior to contacting them.
As for the suspects being Al Qaeda, I somewhat doubt that – this is based on ’sources’. There are suspects, sympathizers, etc. Calls were probably being monitored to Chechnya, Middle East, etc.
Remember the Mao kid who got a visit from the FBI? Read on about the professor – he makes calls to Chechnya often. This would flag you pretty quickly. You don’t have to be guilty to get snooped on.
December 17th, 2005 at 11:02 pmI just pasted it from a Royal Navy site. No credit to me, just chalk it up to the Brits.
December 17th, 2005 at 11:02 pmexpanding: you can perform a warrantless operation under this order without obtaining presidential authorization. In the cases where he was personally involved it was for legal cover.
December 17th, 2005 at 11:03 pm#163
Less specific: George Bush authorized warrantless operations in violation of US law – the defense being that it is not in violation of the US Constitution, the ultimate law of the land.
And as is mentioned this 3 dozen can refer to either individuals where legal cover was required or…
It could refer to the entire program including perhaps thousands of individuals and had to be extended because the NSA would not act without such legal cover.
If your spooks think something is illegal, that’s a bit of an issue – legal is sort of stretched in their realm.
December 17th, 2005 at 11:08 pmWorfeus claimed I made up his assertion that the al Qaeda terrorists in Iraq “fight for freedomâ€, but then he repeated his assertion in #153. Crazy.
Comment by wwallace — December 17, 2005 @ 9:57 pm
What you did not mention, is that according to the US Commanders on the ground, only 7 percent of the insurgency is made up of external forces.
That means the insurgency is made up of the Iraqi people.
That was my point, and you know that.
If you’re gonna kill em, you might as well get it right.
December 17th, 2005 at 11:18 pmJames,
December 17th, 2005 at 11:33 pmThere are three branches of government under the Constitution and attached Amendments. Not in one of the articles or any of the Amendments is the Executive branch allowed to usurp the powers of the other two branches. The term to describe this condition is commonly called separation of powers. The founding fathers never envisioned a situation where the people’s legislature(the house) and the state’s legislature(the senate) would be controlled by a single entity devoted to the Executive branch. The Bush 43 regime has taken advantage of faults in the Legislative area at both the state and national level to destroy our democracy.
But is was nice of Paul Wellstone to die, and give him that fatal final seat.
How fortuitous for our President.
Kinda like 911, where his approval rating went from 38 percent to 89 percent, overnight.
How fortuitous for Mr. Bush.
December 17th, 2005 at 11:42 pmWORFEUS,
December 18th, 2005 at 12:00 amI will disappear for a few weeks, starting Monday, whilst I visit my grand kids and kids in the frozen North. I have enlisted my sister-in-law and my cat (Mandy the Magnificent) to defend the homestead. Warning – sister-in-law has guns, Mandy has claws and will attack any Gecko entering the house.
To the neocon chickenhawks that post comments here:
While you’re hiding under your beds in terror and panic, know that us “liberals” will be defending your rights and freedoms.
Know that we will not let the big bad terrorists get you.
Or you can join the rest of the nation and get help for your paranoia.
December 18th, 2005 at 12:02 amIs that because you really are a covert agent coming to kill me cause I mentioned Paul Wellstone?
December 18th, 2005 at 12:03 amBTW that was to you Walt, and I waz just joshin.
December 18th, 2005 at 12:04 amSo if you are, don’t :|
December 18th, 2005 at 12:09 amWORFEUS,
December 18th, 2005 at 12:31 amOnly if you are a Gecko – boy, I hate those Geico ads!
Liberals and their silly, meaningless symantics. If he had simply left this at no comments, you freaking Leftists would unload on him until he was forced to comment anyway.
December 18th, 2005 at 12:51 amKevin,
Yeah, it must be awful for you hateful fascists to be forced to admit that you are hateful unamerican traitors. Clearly you preferred to hide the fact instead of answering for it. Figures… Cowardice is always the first mark of a CONservative conman chickenhawk – thanks for proving the axiom…
December 18th, 2005 at 12:53 amKevin,
FYI, Nixon tried the no comment for a while when he illegally spied on americans – it didn’t work for him either :()
December 18th, 2005 at 12:54 amFor everyone that opposes Bush’s taking of our privacy and civil liberties why don’t we take a different tack for now?
Instead of changing these tactics why don’t we just lay low and wait until we get the White House back. Once we do, let’s unleash a wrath of probing, eavesdropping and incarceration without charge of every shithead republican and their lying, bribing and doctor shopping for oxycotton brethren.
What kind of smile would we all have after we create a nationwide chorus of Ned Beattys squealing like the pigs they are?
Isn’t there a Sun Tzu passage that relates to this? Something about turning any enemies weapons on themselves…
December 18th, 2005 at 1:01 am#195 -
December 18th, 2005 at 1:08 amCan’t do that it violates the Constitution.
“I Reich I” and company are seriously deluded, once again spending more time have intimate relations with family members than thinking. #3: “Bush was not wiretapping average Americans – it was people like Muhammad Atta ” ah this guy must have some secret information we don’t. if this really was tapping people “like Atta”, why didnt they go through the proper channels? I doubt anyone would have refused them..especially in this climate. Why didnt they go through proper channels…, because these really were probably just people who happened to have the last name “mohammed” or fit some overbroad profile. WE WILL KILL EVERY SINGLE PERSON WE THINK MIGHT BE A TERRORIST, TO PROTECT THE REST OF YOU!!! THANKS , YOUR PAL , THE USA GOV!!
Number of americans killed by foreigners on 9/11: 3000. Number of Americans killed each week by thier fellow american’s negligence, or carelessness: 3000. When I go out on the highway, the smelly guy with a beard I’m worried about ramming into me isnt a guy named “Omar”.. its a buy named Bubbba or Jeeter and he’s probably wasted and on his way back from I Reich I’s barn. The ingorance of the reich wingers is more dangerous than some smelly putzes sitting in caves.
December 18th, 2005 at 1:13 amChuckLA,
Didn’t you hear? Bush just appointed another one of his cronies who was related to the 2000 voter fraud in florida to the FEC.
The republicans don’t intend on allowing democrats to ever be elected again, they’ve already had 2 coup d’etats. Since american didn’t do anything when they happened, they believe they can continue to do so with impunity. That’s why they don’t really care what opposition people think, because they’ll just replace them in the next election, as they have in the march to the ‘neocon congress’ orchestrated by Gingrich and Delay…
They’ve been continually stealing the elections for the last ~8 years in a very widespread manner. Most people don’t know that diebold machines recorded 16000 bush votes incorrectly in one district, but they caught in the recount. The election official involved has recently spoken out saying he thinks this happened all over florida, and the 2000 election was flat out stolen.
http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00002168.htm
December 18th, 2005 at 1:14 amThe argument made by Bushwhacker is that the congressional authority to prosecute a war on al qaeda lets him sidestep all other constitutional measures. Using this logic, he could equally argue this means he could suspend elections the congress and the supreme court and set himself up as a dictator because they interfere with the goal. He could equally argue that he has a right to shut down a free press because they interfere with this carte blanche. He could also argue that an opposition political party interferes with the effort.
His argument is so outlandish as to argue that in effect congress has overturned the constitution to permit his execution of a war. It’s just lunacy and insanity at its core. But typical of the non-thinking of fascism and fascist dictators. It’s no surprise that yet another rightwing dictator is rising his ugly unamerican head. This man deserves impeachment – PERIOD!
December 18th, 2005 at 1:31 amSenator Feingold says it best.
“The President believes that he has the power to override the laws that Congress has passed. This is not how our democratic system of government works. The President does not get to pick and choose which laws he wants to follow. He is a president, not a king.“
December 18th, 2005 at 1:32 am“FISA makes it a crime, punishable by up to five years in prison, to conduct electronic surveillance except as provided for by statute. The only defense is for law government agents engaged in official duties conducting “surveillance authorized by and conducted pursuant to a search warrant or court order.†[50 U.S.C. § 1809]”
Fisa PROHIBITS the actions of Bush and the NSA.
This means that Bush and those who committed this crime should all go to jail for 5 years for each surveillance that happened.
This IS a high crime – impeach now, because he already admitted he’s guilty!
December 18th, 2005 at 1:42 am@ Ryan Neat — December 17, 2005 @ 10:25 pm
How do we know who it was used against?
The same way you know it ever happened at all. If you want to throw out the NYT account as inaccurate that was the whole basis for suggesting this occurred. Rather than being inaccurate it’s account has actually been confirmed.
The problem is that you/we have no idea how far the administration is willing to go, as they’ve shown NO self restraint that anyone can see.
Rubbish. The only reason this scandal exists is because the Whitehouse DID show restraint. The article said this was a limited group of people who were making overseas phonecalls to suspect numbers. The entire issue is that the authorisation to do this was limited by the President by his repeated authorisation for these taps.
You can certainly pretend that this effected all Americans but in reality it actually didn’t.
Now I cannot recall a single solitary comment from anyone when Able Danger was revealed that said no such program of discovering suspects should never have existed. Not one. The majority of feedback seemed to focus on why didn’t the military and Bush administation act on what they found as though this sort of monitoring of people within the country was expected and accepted given just how useful it was.
Yet here you are. All the same people crying foul over the exact same project being run after 9/11 as though anyone over the age of 5 shouldn’t have already expected such monitoring to start with.
Yeah run with that. Demand impeachment. After all it’s not like authorising monitoring of suspect communications based on what happened on 9/11 the month after 9/11 is going to be as stupid an idea as demanding impeachment for authorising the military to be given bullets the month after Iraq was invaded.
It’s not like the single reason Bush is in power is the belief he can best protect the nation from terrorism right ? Yeah…. make the issue him doing just that and see how that turns out.
December 18th, 2005 at 1:43 am#198
Ryan,
To expand on your post, I’d like the nutjobs on here to enlighten us as to why there were no reports of electronic voting machines malfunctioning in favor of Kerry, during the 2004 election?
Same for the recent governor’s race in VA. There was a report that in 4 precincts in Roanoke County, 2 problems cropped up when voters selected Kaine: machines were either not responding at all, or the machine selected Kilgore’s name instead.
Come on, wwallace, mighty afrobite, and I-Right-I. Show us some links.
December 18th, 2005 at 1:56 am#202
It’s not like the single reason Bush is in power is the belief he can best protect the nation from terrorism right ?
Oh, I guess that has nothing to do with a comment from Dick, when he said we could be guaranteed another terrorist attack in America if John Kerry were elected?
Yep…Bush & Co. played the fear card to their advantage, and it paid off.
December 18th, 2005 at 2:15 am“The same way you know it ever happened at all. If you want to throw out the NYT account as inaccurate that was the whole basis for suggesting this occurred. Rather than being inaccurate it’s account has actually been confirmed.” EmptyTank
Actually all that’s been confirmed is that spying occurred, what spying, the details of it, the extent of it has NOT been confirmed. There you go again carrying water for the fascists with more typical deception and republican lies. You’re such an ‘empty tank’.
“Now I cannot recall a single solitary comment from anyone when Able Danger was revealed that said no such program of discovering suspects should never have existed. Not one.”
Wrong again. Lots of folks complained. But just because you’re a retarded republican who doesn’t listen to much of anything but rush limp-butt you wouldn’t know that either.
If ignorance were TNT, you could individually restart the big bang.
“Yet here you are. All the same people crying foul over the exact same project being run after 9/11 as though anyone over the age of 5 shouldn’t have already expected such monitoring to start with.”
Wrong again, no one knew this was happening – and authentic americans who care about civil liberties wouldn’t want it. Clearly you’re unqualified for that distinction.
“Yeah run with that. Demand impeachment. After all it’s not like authorising monitoring of suspect communications based on what happened on 9/11 the month after 9/11 is going to be as stupid an idea as demanding impeachment for authorising the military to be given bullets the month after Iraq was invaded.”
Actually FISA would have allowed monitoring of suspects – which is what bush CLAIMS he was doing. So your argument holds no water. What’s stupid is your defense of ‘illegal wiretapping without a warrant’, which shows that you’re just another Nixon fool who doesn’t believe in america or our constitution.
So your ‘claims’ that this somehow made it possible to do something that there weren’t ‘legal’ means to do is irrational, hysterical and unfounded. You are a typical republican fool who doesn’t take the time to understand america or our values. Please leave, and go live in a fascist dictatorship somewhere else, and take all of the other fascist criminals with you! You don’t deserve to live in this country!
December 18th, 2005 at 2:23 amWC,
Yeah, conservative republicans are natural born criminals. It’s really sad to see how consistent this is…
December 18th, 2005 at 2:24 amNo point in responding to the totality of your rant but I find the last part revealing.
It’s not like the single reason Bush is in power is the belief he can best protect the nation from terrorism right ? Yeah…. make the issue him doing just that and see how that turns out
Interesting choice of words, “in power”. Not “in office” but “in power”. You have no more idea why Bush remained in office than anyone else. It was the closest election, in terms of the margin of popular votes in some time, in both 2000, when he lost and was “installed”, and 2004. You and they would suspend free elections to stay in power and probably did. Bush was never elected to office and he, and sycophants like you will be out of power so soon your underwear will have to take the next train to lunatic fringeville. I’m glad you have established the “imperial presidency” however. Whatch as it’s heavy boot stomps you in the face and crushes the very life out of you and you fascist ideas. Then, after we have rid the world of the danger that you pose, we can deal with terrorism and someday soon, get our constitution and democracy back.
December 18th, 2005 at 2:32 amPedophile priests, Mormon polygamists, and now this…
Conservatives and fundamentalists. Who will rid us of these troublesome priests.
The death of one infant boy from herpes and the infection of two others has focused attention on an ancient practice that is still used in some ultra-Orthodox communities as they circumcise babies.
As New York City health officials continue to investigate whether Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer had infected the three boys, here in Los Angeles, while people have expressed shock at the story, they are even more surprised that the custom is still in practice at all.
Metzizah b’peh — loosely translated as oral suction — is the part of the circumcision ceremony where the mohel removes the blood from the baby’s member; these days the removal of the blood is usually done using a sterilized glass tube, instead of with the mouth, as the Talmud suggests.
While it’s not known whether Fischer carries the herpes virus, the city ordered him to stop performing metzizah b’peh by mouth and to use a sterile tube and wear surgical gloves when performing a circumcision.
Los Angeles rabbis and mohels say that the practice is not prevalent, confined primarily to Chasidic groups.
“Even within the Chasidic community the procedure is restricted to only parts of that community,†said Rabbi Yitzchok Adlerstein, director of Project Next Step at the Simon Wiesenthal Center. “And in the non-Chasidic community, some of the most [Orthodox] conservative thinkers have gone on record as being opposed to the procedure.â€
The demographic is so small, that there are no statistics available on exact numbers that still perform metzizah b’peh or even which Chasidic groups still practice it.
“I certainly don’t see it as becoming more prominent,†said Rabbi Daniel Korobkin of Kehillat Yavneh, who has been a licensed mohel for 15 years. Korobkin stressed that at this stage of the investigation, fears should be tempered.
While all those interviewed acknowledged the death of the baby as a terrible tragedy, none believed there should be any reason for people to panic.
“Most Jews aren’t Orthodox here,†said Samuel Kunin, a board-certified urologist who has been a mohel for 15 years catering to the non-Orthodox Los Angeles community. “I don’t think, in general, it’s going to affect many people. So far, nobody’s even questioned me about the issue.â€
One of the most popular mohels in the community said he only had one person question him recently because of the case. “I’ve been doing this for over 25 years,†Rabbi Yehuda Lebovics said. He said that people trust him. “They know I’ve never had an infection of any kind, and that I clean my instruments, wear gloves and wash my hands.â€
Korobkin added that while people are definitely aware of the current incident, he has not received any anxious phone calls from parents who have brit milah ceremonies approaching. That may have something to do with the fact that Korobkin has only performed metzizah b’peh on his own sons. “Because their immune systems are closer to mine, and both my wife and I knew we had no communicable diseases,†he explained. “But I would not take the risk for myself personally, because I wouldn’t want to contract or transmit a disease from or to a child.â€
Korobkin also refuses to perform metzizah b’peh without the tube — even if parents ask.
“No matter how long a guy’s beard is or how pious a person is, you can still contract herpes or even HIV through a blood transfusion,†he said.
While he acknowledged the Talmud’s reasoning of metzizah b’peh at the time it was written was to prevent any unhealthy coagulation of the blood, today, he argued, using a device that ensures the mohel’s mouth doesn’t come into direct contact with the child is just as effective and acceptable.
“We know the practice is not based on anything in Jewish law, it’s something that is meta-halachic,†Korobkin said. “So the question is, can you really justify endangering a child’s health for something that only provides a nonhalachic benefit? And the logical conclusion is no. It doesn’t make any sense.â€
Lebovics, who also only practices metzizah b’peh with a tube, agreed. “Since the spread of AIDS and herpes has also become more prevalent, it’s not good for either me or my patients. I stopped doing [metzizah b’peh] many many years ago.â€
Korobkin also cited an article in the August 2004 edition of the journal Pediatrics, in which scientific medical studies proved that eight babies in Israel contracted the herpes simplex virus following ritual circumcision using metzizah b’peh.
“And the most important overriding principle for any mohel, the first directive we receive in our training, is that the child’s safety is paramount,†he said. “It comes before anything. If there’s even a question that there might be a problem, we always delay the brit.â€
So why would anyone take the risk, however small, of performing metzizah b’peh?
“The Talmud also speaks of a mystical concept that is supposedly beneficial for the child when metzizah b’peh is performed,†Korobkin said.
That is apparently something that those who continue to practice metzizah b’peh are not willing to relinquish.
Both Korobkin and Adlerstein confessed to not knowing what the exact benefits were. However, according to Adlerstein, “some people see these nonhalachic sources as an integral part of the brit milah.â€
He also pointed out that in particular branches of Chasidism “there is a tradition that believes every mitzvah operates on both the surface plane and the mystical plane. It all ties in to the greater rules about how God ordered the cosmos.â€
Whatever the reasoning, people affiliated with the anti-circumcision movement used Internet blogs and chat rooms to spread the story when it initially broke in New York, and spread accusations that equated rabbis with pedophiles. However, none of those interviewed feared a major backlash against the community.
“Mohels view themselves as physicians,†Korobkin said.
As to the accusations of pedophilia, he said, “There’s nothing glamorous or sensual about a bloody infant phallus. Metzizah b’peh is both unprovocative and unsensual. It’s not a desirable thing to do by any stretch of the imagination. Anyone who wants to take a stab at Orthodox practices doesn’t need to take this particular issue to do that.â€
Kunin agreed, saying, “I think this is going to have a small effect, if any at all. And then only in the Orthodox community [where metzizah b’peh is practiced]. Anti-circumcision people have an amazing way of manipulating the media.â€
Lebovics also felt the issue was being blown out of proportion, but conceded that “anything negative about something Jewish is not good for the Jewish people.â€
If, however, the New York City Health Board discovers that the three babies did in fact contract herpes from Fischer, then, and only then, Korobkin said, “a stance should be taken by the rabbinical bodies; some kind of cautionary release, that every mohel should be regularly tested for communicable diseases, and that he should not be practicing metzizah b’peh. However, to say across the board it should not be performed, I don’t think that’s something that should be regulated, as long as the proper precautions are taken.â€
Adlerstein added: “Most of those regulations are currently in practice, with mohels who do regularly check themselves. I believe that this issue will be and is already being addressed by groups that will protect the health of the babies.â€
So far, he continued, there has been no causal link established in Fischer’s case. “There’s no smoking gun here.â€
The real issue here, he said, “is the risks of the state intruding on important matters of personal choice, such as religious beliefs. Society has sort of gone on record as being reluctant to intrude on personal choice. And there are far greater health risks these days, including risks in pregnancy, or unprotected gay sex, that far outweigh metzizah b’peh that has been practiced for decades and decades.”
December 18th, 2005 at 2:40 amWrong again, no one knew this was happening – and authentic americans who care about civil liberties wouldn’t want it.
Just to recap.
Ryan here is suggesting that “authentic Americans” would have objected to the 9/11 terrorists being identified via the Able Danger data mining on the grounds that their civil liberties were being violated.
Then after they objected to such a project existing before 9/11 they would have no expectation that the same thing would exist after 9/11.
So basically “authentic Americans” translates to “irrelevant retards”. How proud you must all feel.
December 18th, 2005 at 2:58 amThe problem is this. Bush says he’s only authorized spying on people with links to terrorists. However, they have demonstrated quite clearly over the last 4 years that they don’t really have a clue who has links to what, or who posesses what. They’re just taking shots in the dark. These are suspects only, and they’re probably spying on lots of innocent people.
But luckily for me, I’m not American. You losers can deal with your own problems that you created, while the world laughs at you over popcorn.
December 18th, 2005 at 3:08 amThe problem is this. Bush says he’s only authorized spying on people with links to terrorists. However, they have demonstrated quite clearly over the last 4 years that they don’t really have a clue who has links to what, or who posesses what.
And monitoring whoever calls cell phones captured in Peshawar isn’t a good place to start finding out who is linked to what ?
Yeah there’s really going to just be millions of people who called those numbers by mistake isn’t there.
December 18th, 2005 at 3:19 amOh Tank (what a manly name), is that all they’re doing? Do you really know anything at all about this? All I know is that the number of times I’ve heard the term, “failure of intelligence” over the last 4 years would suggest to me that they are often very wrong. Now that I think about it, why am I talking to you? I most certainly have better things to do. Transmission over,”Tank”.
December 18th, 2005 at 3:25 amGreat Leader informs us in his radio screed Saturday that the terrorists want to attack America again like they did on 9/11. Let’s put this in perspective: the person speaking those words is the worst terrorist of all, for he wants to destroy our Constitution and the freedoms it embodies, our respect and reputation in the world, our economic security, and our environment. Someone in congress needs to come up with a new kind of patriot act to protect us from HIM.
December 18th, 2005 at 3:28 amMr. President, I applaud you for your efforts to spy on the American people to protect us. Due to your tireless efforts, only a relative few Americans were killed this year in terrorist attacks. May I also suggest that, since thousands of Americans are killed every year by gun violence (many times more than the 2001 terrorist attacks), that you also take our guns away? What’s that? You don’t want to, because it would violate WHAT? It would make WHO angry? Oh, I see. You are surely a man of principal, Mr. President. Carry on.
December 18th, 2005 at 4:41 amTank, do you mean the phones confiscated from those people who have been put into all of those prisons and not actually charged with anything? Damn people for trying to call them! Maybe it’s their lawyers trying to reach them, you know, since they haven’t heard from their clients for a while.
December 18th, 2005 at 5:04 amall you have to do is change your foreign policy buy oil on the open market as do the rest of the world …then you dont have to torture , attack countries , spy on your citizens etc etc etc etc etc
December 18th, 2005 at 5:12 amI really cannot wait to see how this (Bush’s admission of spying on Americans) plays in the polls. If a majority of Americans think that being spied on is a GOOD idea, it means we’re much closer to an Orwelian police state than we ever thought. For people like me who have deep concerns about this Administration, this is proof positive that the guy should be impeached at the least, perhaps even tried as a war criminal. For me, there’s no question where regime change is really needed.
December 18th, 2005 at 5:16 amTank, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. I will not use names or make silly comments, as certain others have done. I will suggest a compromise between people like you, willing to lose your civil liberties in pursuit of the “terrorists,” and people like me who cherish the liberty this nation was founded upon. Here’s the compromise: Let’s set aside one state, Texas, for people who want Bush’s America. The rest of us will live our happy lives, use the Internet and the Library without fear, recieve our safety net entitlements when we need them, breathe clean air and swim in clear water, and so on. Let Texas be the place where you get spied on, where leaders cannot be trustworthy, where death row inmates are as good as dead, where the press contains nothing but propoganda, and so on. I know which nation I’d choose. Which one do YOU choose, Tank?
December 18th, 2005 at 5:34 am# 115, You say “the way so many guilt ridden dems “think”…”. To be able to feel guilt, you first must possess a conscience. Your sneering dismissal of those guilt ridden dems. serves to demonstrate a trait that you share with George W. Bush. You are both Sociopaths, lacking the ability to feel empathy, but are able to fake it, when you have to. Also, you are both “Poster Children” for the need for birth control. Your poor mother. Barbara got what she deserves. I doubt her grandchildren will visit her at the “home”. Or at the cemetary, for that matter. What a silly person you are. Did you ride the “Short Bus” to school?
December 18th, 2005 at 5:40 amDan, we’re all going to your world. Unfortunately, I can only forsee that happening after I have my allotted 6 feet of dirt.
December 18th, 2005 at 5:59 amAs to ‘domestic’ spying- this is new?
The press and propaganda…well, only if it is printing the opposing viewpoint, right?
As to ‘domestic’ spying- this is new?
The press and propaganda…well, only if it is printing the opposing viewpoint, right?
Comment by Ilean
Yes it is new. For the NSA.
December 18th, 2005 at 6:05 amRyan here is suggesting that “authentic Americans†would have objected to the 9/11 terrorists being identified via the Able Danger data mining on the grounds that their civil liberties were being violated.
crank
Able Danger was and is complete horseshit, like Kurt “Wingnut” Weldon and you, crankpot.
December 18th, 2005 at 6:07 am@ Dan
Tank, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. I will not use names or make silly comments, as certain others have done. I will suggest a compromise between people like you, willing to lose your civil liberties in pursuit of the “terrorists,†and people like me who cherish the liberty this nation was founded upon.
Dan do you notice that in your comparison there you suggest I am willing to give something up in order to gain something else while you just cherish stuff ?
Here’s the compromise: Let’s set aside one state, STATE X, for people who want Bush’s America. The rest of us will live our happy lives, use the Internet and the Library without fear, recieve our safety net entitlements when we need them, breathe clean air and swim in clear water, and so on. Let STATE X be the place where you get spied on, where leaders cannot be trustworthy, where death row inmates are as good as dead, where the press contains nothing but propoganda, and so on. I know which nation I’d choose. Which one do YOU choose, Tank?
Whichever one lets you take Plasma TVs out of stores and your neighbours houses without paying for them. So which one is that ?
You dislike surveilence… well I dislike security guards and locks. Both are security measures and if you ignore the benefits they provide then you can pretend like they are only an inconvenience in a utopia without threats.
Did you ever get the idea that after 9/11 when airport security got beefed up and pretty much nothing else that all this did was make anyone planning a terrorist attack avoid airports ?
Yeah well that’s State X in your hypothetical. In the exact same way as when only 1 airline screens with metal detectors and only 1 highway has police patrols for speeding and drunks then that is the one place these threats will avoid.
As for my preference in nations neither America Part A nor America Part B are gonna make the top 50.
December 18th, 2005 at 6:15 amHere’s the compromise: Let’s set aside one state, Texas, for people who want Bush’s America.
Yes. We should have let them secede in 1861. Then, after we kicked their puking little asses, Lincoln insisted that they were not to be punished for their crimes, like many of the members of his cabinet wanted. They wanted to really stick it to them. Personally, I think we should have just wiped them out. Let’s get to it, let’s get busy. Why should they get to take anything but the clothes on their backs if they don’t like it here. This isn’t Soviet Russia or North Korea or East Berlin. If you don’t like it here you are free to leave anytime, but you are not free to start your own rules or steal our land. If you don’t want to leave, and you want to make a fight, you will get what Randy Weaver got, or Gordon Kahl got, or Koresh and the Branch Davidiots and a long list of other wingnuts just like yourself. You can call yourself the Bush patridiots because that’s what you are. Although, even Bush isn’t about to let you secede. he’s not even on your side, you dumb fvcking rubes.
December 18th, 2005 at 6:18 am@ pest — December 18, 2005 @ 6:07 am
Able Danger was and is complete horseshit, like Kurt “Wingnut†Weldon and you, crankpot.
pest you get to make assessments of intelligence gathering operations and call people crankpots when you stop saying things as ridiculous as this…
As to ‘domestic’ spying- this is new?
December 18th, 2005 at 6:20 amYes it is new. For the NSA. – pest
As for my preference in nations neither America Part A nor America Part B are gonna make the top 50.
Comment by Tank — December 18, 2005
Hit the road, Jack. Don’t let the door hit ya where the good Lord split, ya. And don’t come back.
December 18th, 2005 at 6:22 amHit the road, Jack. Don’t let the door hit ya where the good Lord split, ya. And don’t come back.
I was never there chump.
December 18th, 2005 at 6:30 amAre you still here, crankpot?
I thought you had left by now.
Your continuing support for the admitted criminal Bush makes you lower than slug urine. As a result of that, I won’t even bother to piss on you, except to say that you are hardly the brightest bulb on this string of lites. You aren’t even the dimmest. You’re just not here. Bushboys screwed up big time. So continue to blow it out yer ass. It’ll be fun to watch you twist and spin in this hurricane.
December 18th, 2005 at 6:30 amI was never there chump.
Comment by Tank — December 18, 2005 @
So STFU, then. It’s none of your business, is it? It doesn’t affect you. And don’t visit anytime soon. As you know, we have all kinds of people bent out of shape about illegal immigrants.
For the rest of you who aren’t ridiculous freaks of nature in a travelling carney, this was not some “wild-eyed, Bush-hating leftist who leaked this info, and back before the election, too. Real patriots, thousands of them, Republicans, conservatives, Democrats too, in our military and civilian defense apparatus, wanted this freak in the White House brought down, and wanted it before he was re-elected. This is another shot that was fired by the loyal and patriotic professionals in our military and government in an effort to get this clueless tyrant out of office without a mess. A bloodless coup. It’s not over and you can be damn sure there will be more leaks.
December 18th, 2005 at 6:44 amyour country should be realy called the “dictorial states of Amerca” or “destructive states of America” in fact Communisum seemed like a good word all of a sudden…things are only going to get worse as the rest of the world boycotts your goods
December 18th, 2005 at 7:12 amin fact you should be called the “divided states of America” Im sure Nixon was thrown own for spying on people…get your act together get rid of Bush so all the negative energies in the world are not focused on yourselfs and then the world can get a good nights sleep…Stuff you Bush only 8% of the world like you
December 18th, 2005 at 7:15 amHas anybody checked the National archives to see if the Constitution is still there? I think Bush has wiped his ass with it!
December 18th, 2005 at 8:30 amP.S. Notice Bush has forgoten all about catching his buddy Bin laden.
Here’s the deal:-
December 18th, 2005 at 8:56 amYour President lies regularly.
Your elections are rigged regularly.
Your executive breaks the law to maintain power.
Your president breaks the law and your constitution without batting an eyelid.
Your vice president condones torture and secret prisons.
Eleven mostly totally innocent Iraquis are killed for each one of your fallen soldiers in Iraq.
Your media does no real investigative journalism.
You cannot cope with a natural diaster half as well as Bangladesh.
Your government ignores that it is party to causing a climate change which is making the effects of terrorism seem like a playground squabble.
You have abandoned natural agriculture in favour of engineering plants where all that is known is that you can’t put the genie back in the bottle.
What in god’s name does it need to get you out on the streets in rebellion – real rebellion. Didn’t you learn anything about people power from what happened in Europe in 1989-1991?
Stop f–ing talking and being oh so clever on the net and get out and shout your heads off, fill the streets and refuse to co-operate with anything! You are the government. You are the police. You are the military
Its your last chance to get back what you have let slip away.
Its Sunday- do it today. No excuses
America what can I say. that has not been already said on note 240………except that the world is boycotting your goods if you have not alrerady noticed …change your foreign policy and spend the money on your own country ,health ,education,housing , Stay in America and leave the rest of the world alone we have managed exceptionally well without you ….The world hates you and everything you stand for at the moment so shut the F–K up
December 18th, 2005 at 9:07 amI am so grateful to Russ Feingold, and the blogs that not only get it, but also are willing to wake up America. You folks give me hope, but please don’t slack off, even during the holidays.
As long as there are folks like Keith – o ‘liar who either believe, or try to spin:
we need to stay vigilant.
Judd, please either educate yourself or stop spinning. Our country is indeed fighting a formidable enemy, but many are personally connected to this administration. This WH is the only WH in history to have had a member arrested for spying for a foreign government, an aide to Dick Cheney, Lawrence Franklin.
Educate yourself on who is leading the fighting, and who are in “al-Qaeda”.
BBC had this to say about Rhamzi Yousef and his uncle Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the WTC attacks.
I suggest Dr. Pape ), as a place to start confronting your myth that
We are trying to fight a war agaisnt radical Islam.
If you are unwilling to read his book, Dying to Win, try his article on Pat Buchanan’s website, The American Conservative. The subtitle of the books is “The Logic of Suicide Terrorism-It’s the occupation, not the fundamentalismâ€.
December 18th, 2005 at 9:20 amWhen 9/11 happened 20 people in our office thought i was great and America deserved 9/11. out on the streets in London that night everybody I spoke to thought America deserved 9/11 all except the poor fire brigade and people trying to help the afermath and to be totaly honest even my Parents agreed America deserved 9/11 . Probably most people in europe thought you deserved 9/11 ,We all thought Maybe America might see sense now . How wrong we were things got even worse . When is that young nation of yours going to grow up . your sposed to be world leaders ..Get rid of Bush and change your god dam foreign policies and we might all be happy again ,until then you sow what you reap
December 18th, 2005 at 9:25 amThe citizens of the United States have the right to demand the whole list of names that this President has compiled in the name of protecting United States citizens. In his arrogant message Saturday, he flip flopped (his parties words that anyone who disagrees with him does)since he invaded Irag illegally his main argument has always been “attack them there, so they won’t attack us here”, now he says, this latest illegal disclosure was done to protect the “homeland”. We will all sit back and have to put up with more of their “spin” on this latest mess the President has gotten us into. But wait, he will probably call his Daddy and mommie to get him out of another problem. Money talks,b.s. walks.
December 18th, 2005 at 9:38 amRe 243.
December 18th, 2005 at 9:38 amNothing deserves what happened on 9.11. But it could have been turned to the good. I hoped and partly believed that would happen. The reality is that the attackers won. The took down more than the twin towers. They destroyed your sense of justice and your adherence to the rules of democracy. They divided you.
If you want to solve a problem that looks like a pile of shit, don’t mess with the problem. You get covered in shit.
Go for the solution, the goal. When you get there you find the problem has gone away. It takes time intelligence and often humility to discover the real solution and your government displays none of these.
But like I said at 240, its up to you! Change it. You can.
I totally agree “you sow what you reap” thats why 911 happened everyone I know was in Liverpool thought 911 was better than a blockbuster movie . I would now like to speak not on behalf of Tony Blair but the British public ” Ha ha Ha” nice one bin Laden if you were hidding in my front room I would not turn you in either your a hero well done by Prezident Muzzaraf of Pakistan
December 18th, 2005 at 9:38 ammea culpa.
Judd is educated. It is annonymous aka as Keith O’Liar (post #3) who seems so gullible, and ready to goosestep at the first sign of the Fuhrer spreading propaganda and fear. Get some spine Keith, and don’t be such a wimp.
FWIW, I was born under Hitler and have seen this movie before.
In Hitler’s case, it was the communists, and after the Reichstags fire, he had to suspend civil liberties and enter into a preventive war against Poland. Better to fight the enemy over there, than have to fight them on our Homeland, he told the frightened Germans.
There is really nothing original about this cabal. They are rarely deviating from the exact 3rd Reich formula, down to the speeches and laws. BTW, Carl Schmidt, co-authored a book w/ Leo Strauss, who spread the technique here in the US. Wohlstetter, and his students at the Univ. of Chicago, including Lynn Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, and Ahmed Chalabi, among others, developed a mathematical and military strategy to put those tools in the hands of a “benevelant” hah-ha dictator. In “scoop” Jackson and the Committeee for a Present Danger they found the political opening, and have always lurked just below the surface ever since.
Of course they did not see Jews as the enemy, but instead (not without considerable historical justification) saw it their duty to protect Israel, and remake the Middle East, just as Hitler saw it his duty to remake Europe to ensure the future safety of Germany.
December 18th, 2005 at 9:40 amOf course America deserved 911 a few months before they fired 80 cruise missiles into Afghanistan all missed their targets ( Bin Laden) as they do
December 18th, 2005 at 9:43 ammea culpa #2. (could be fixed with a preview?)
In regards to Keith O’liars claim/ myth that the enemy is Islamic fundamentalism ???, my quote on who the mastermind of WTC, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed really is got truncated.:
Apologies for these repetive corrections. erich
December 18th, 2005 at 10:01 amLiverpool, I’m really sorry for you.
December 18th, 2005 at 10:01 am9.11 was spectacular, and many of us could understand the anger of some people directed against the USA at that time. But don’t ever claim to be speaking for me as member of the British public again. I’m sorry for you as you seem to be surrounded by morons. Not good.
Time for IMPEACHMENT proceedings to be introduced as soon as the holidays are over…
December 18th, 2005 at 11:00 amthe secret nature of this administration conveys little respect to those with minimal intelligence.
The philosophy of this government is to make their own rules and if they get caught attempt to schmooze the people into believing something is necessary for these covert operations.. otherwise if that doesn’t work admit the truth with reservations and lie ….
Liverpool, I’m really sorry for you.
9.11 was spectacular, and many of us could understand the anger of some people directed against the USA at that time. But don’t ever claim to be speaking for me as member of the British public again. I’m sorry for you as you seem to be surrounded by morons. Not good.
Comment by Richard the European
Richard,
That’s likely one of our right wing trolls trying to plant weird comments that they can then point to on their own carnival freak blogs as indicative of the level of commentary on this site. They make Stalin look like a piker.
December 18th, 2005 at 11:08 amAmerica has to own up to the fact that our current policies make enemies around the world.
December 18th, 2005 at 11:10 amhttp://www.stcharleschristmas.com/
December 18th, 2005 at 11:11 amOf course America deserved 911 a few months before they fired 80 cruise missiles into Afghanistan all missed their targets ( Bin Laden) as they do
Comment by Liverpool
He left out the Clinton bashing, but it’s implied. He’s a dumb old cracker and if it weren’t for the Beatles, he wouldn’t be able to name a single city in Britain.
December 18th, 2005 at 11:12 amTHE MORE POLITICAL TROUBLE THIS ADMINISTRATION FACES, THE MORE LIKELY ANOTHER “TERRORIST” ATTACK WILL OCCUR.
Because, the best way to get people to give up their civil liberties is to threaten their security. Thousands more will die so the priviledged few can remain in power.
December 18th, 2005 at 11:16 amCudos to the “rachael maddow show” on air america, for breaking this NSA spying story over a year ago in the middle of the night.
The President will lie to the american people and cannot be trusted to work for the american people, therefore in 2006, vote to investigate and remove this blight upon the american people.
December 18th, 2005 at 11:36 amThrow Da Bums out in 2006.
renew deomocracy.
its your right use it before you lose it.
THE MORE POLITICAL TROUBLE THIS ADMINISTRATION FACES, THE MORE LIKELY ANOTHER “TERRORIST†ATTACK WILL OCCUR.
Because, the best way to get people to give up their civil liberties is to threaten their security. Thousands more will die so the priviledged few can remain in power.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — December 18, 2005
That won’t work now. If one does happen now, they will be blamed. Are you a troll?
December 18th, 2005 at 12:44 pmso the solution is just change your foreign policy – end of story
December 18th, 2005 at 12:57 pmLiverpool, I’m really sorry for you.
9.11 was spectacular, and many of us could understand the anger of some people directed against the USA at that time. But don’t ever claim to be speaking for me as member of the British public again. I’m sorry for you as you seem to be surrounded by morons. Not good.
Comment by Richard the European
Richard,
That’s likely one of our right wing trolls trying to plant weird comments that they can then point to on their own carnival freak blogs as indicative of the level of commentary on this site. They make Stalin look like a piker.
Thats hardly a right wing statement its a statement from a guy that smokes too much dope and just wants peace in this world ……so stuff america
December 18th, 2005 at 1:00 pm#260
so stuff america
Now, now… we don’t have collective views here (well, not yet, Big Brother Cheney hasn’t accomplished that goal quite yet, though I think he he working on it). This site exists because half of the voters in this country voted against King George and his foreign policy.
December 18th, 2005 at 1:08 pm#243 – “When 9/11 happened 20 people in our office thought i was great and America deserved 9/11.” – London Muke
December 18th, 2005 at 2:43 pm****** Thank you for sharing your thoughts. To post such a moronic statement however, is tantamount to the US saying you deserved the blits that rained down on your country during WWII for having elected the cowardly wimp, Neville Chamberlain. Because of thinking like yours, it is no wonder many Americans are delighted our ancestors left Europe.
Your still talking and not doing anything.
December 18th, 2005 at 2:47 pmThe forest of democracy your founding fathers planted, expecting to see it flourish into mighty oaks, sycamores, maples, beeches and elms has been hijacked. It is now only as alive as monoculture and just as incapable of seeding its own future. Grub it out and plant again. Go back to the blueprint. And be patient. BUT DO SOMETHING. Only writing here produces nothing. You are continuing to wrestle in the shit. Not one person has changed their position one iota since this line began.
Like I said at 240. Its Sunday – get out there – no excuses.
Pest,
December 18th, 2005 at 2:53 pmIf you’re not outside protesting – what’s a Piker? Sorry, cultural divide.
Don’t even bother to read Liverpool’s stuf. He obviously doesn’t.
Mighty Aphrodite,
Get a clue! Warrants can be obtained up to 72 hours (yes, three days) AFTER the spying BEGINS.
So, it is not because every minute counts that the despot-in-chief authorized illegal spying. It is because he and his gang of thugs believe themselves above the law.
December 18th, 2005 at 3:14 pmAh -Mighty Aphrodite.
December 18th, 2005 at 3:16 pmHow can you get so much wrong in so few words.First he is Mike not Muke. His comments were moronic as you implied (got that bit right). His anger and wish for change are however generally felt.
Second, we did get rid of Neville Chamberlain because he got it so stupidly wrong.
Third, blitz is spelt with “Z”.
Fourth the blitz fell on the UK precisely because we got it wrong. We did deserve it in that sense, even though by then we had changed our leader.
Fifth, there are a lot of americans who wish your ancestors hadn’t left Europe – almost all of the ones who were living there already.
Sixth. Having got the other five points wrong, you are commiting the biggest mistake of all in thinking that your government now is better than what it left behind. It may be but I doubt it. We’ve been through endless viscous wars here since then until a new order said “Not with us – not any more”. We’re still getting it wrong, but not always. Because people here do really come out en masse when it matters. Get out there and do something now to correct the misdemeanours I listed at 240 or the Lib Dems will do it for you. Surprisingly, you have a common goal, that of stopping extreme attitudes. I won’t discuss any more of the stuff you or any of the other contributors write until you convince me you have DONE SOMETHING!
Susanne Osthoff, the German woman taken hostage in Iraq, has been freed, Germany’s foreign minister says.Must have a decent honest foreign policy i think not like some
December 18th, 2005 at 3:59 pmIt will libertrolls.
December 18th, 2005 at 4:45 pmAhhhhhhhhh- Mr. European – Loose the patronizing, superior attitude – it reinforces my opinion.
***”First he is Mike not Muke. His comments were moronic as you implied…”
Actually, I was exceedingly polite – I wanted to address him as “Puke”. ‘As I implied’???? – I didn’t ‘imply’ ANYTHING – I stated, period.
*** “His anger and wish for change are however generally felt.”
OK – make up your mind. Which is it – is Muke a Moron? Or is Muke correct? I hope not everybody in your neck of the woods is this wishy-washy!!
*** “….we did get rid of Neville Chamberlain because he got it so stupidly wrong.”
But not before the majority gave a great BIG sigh of relief and ate up the myth that Hitler could be trusted!
*** “We did deserve it in that sense,…”
NOBODY deserved the bombings you endured in WWII (or recent subway bombings) and no one deserved to be murdered by barbarians on 9/11 – but, you’re ALIVE to make your grand and sweeping pronouncements – you have unwittingly reinforced my impression that members of the political Left are the most arrogant, smug, lazy bunch of people.
*** “there are a lot of americans who wish your ancestors hadn’t left Europe – almost all of the ones who were living there already.” You’re right – the 30% of Dems, progressives, leftists and leeches really wish they were still in europe. Of course, we’re talking about a lazy group of people who have NEVER met an entitlement or social welfare program they did not love. These are generally the people who are the last to arrive at their place of employment, (if they have a job) whine the whole time they’re there and are the first to leave. About those people – you’re welcome to them – they’re useless.
Then to wrap up your critique you exhort us to do SOMETHING – what, be like europeans???? NO thanks!!!!
P.S. Climate change- hmmmm….reminds me of Manchester and Liverpool – dirty, filthy cities!! Why don’t you take you show to India, Bangladesh and then straighten out those Chinese manufacturers. Seem s like you have your work cut out for you. You stupidly regurgitate Lefty talking points, forgetting that the US, which only has 5% of the population yet uses 25% of the resources PRODUCES 25 % of the world’s goods. Grow up!!!!
December 18th, 2005 at 4:58 pmThe presence of people like MightyA, Tank, Kevin, wwallace and the reprehensible and unAmerican fascist I-Right-I in this thread have turned much of it into a waste of time and bandwidth.
I’m going back to dKos where such scum can be trollrated out of substantive discussion.
See ya.
December 18th, 2005 at 5:57 pmDubya is a horses ass—look out! there’s a terrorist Quaker behind you!===When will the repubs & dems finally drag the bush bastard out from under his bed, into the street and change the locks on the whitehouse doors. Bush is a filthy criminal.
December 18th, 2005 at 6:01 pmAh – Mighty Aphrodite
December 18th, 2005 at 6:27 pmIt seems I ruffled your feathers. Very satisfying.
As a European I am allowed to be patronizing. You see, we are your fathers!
More seriously, take a good long look at what you wrote and try thinking about it. It’s not going to be easy because most of it is rubbish. For instance, Neville Chamberlain got it wrong and most of the people didn’t agree with his approach. That is why he got thrown out in a democratic process. Its easy. Now do it with your president.
And if you find it patronizing, me admitting that we got it seriously wrong for many hundred years, killed millions upon millions of people for no purpose than to follow the whims of megalomaniacal leaders, and only in the last fifty years have come anywhere close to getting it right, then you have a serious problem. But the events of 1989-1991 in Europe were an example of people getting it right and you should be sharp enough to learn from it whether you are American, European or whatever. Just because someone who is not from your country criticises you and points out there are examples from outside your country of how to get it right doesn’t mean theyre being patronizing. In most parts of the world, including the USA its normally called constructive criticism. But it seems your leaders can’t take that either. Are you just copying them? Do you want to be a leader?
Well goodnight. It’s past midnight here and my dog and my home need me. Obviously you do too, to ruffle your feathers. But you’re a long way from here…
#272 – Dear Dick – Thank you for addressing ONE point of my refutation of your “opinions” – You have confirmed your intellectual laziness.
No – you are in NO way related to me – THANK GOD!!
The rest of your redundant scribbles are tedious and repetitious…..yawn….zzzzzzz…..
P.S. I’ll allow you to maintain your smug demeanor when you are no longer known as a country with deplorable teeth and poor dental hygiene. No wonder you guys maintain that “stiff upper lip”!!
December 18th, 2005 at 6:47 pmAh – Mighty Aphrodite
December 18th, 2005 at 6:50 pmI’ve just realized how dumb you are. Sorry, didn’t notice it before.
What I meant about the people who wished your ancestors had not left Europe was, that the people who already lived there – The Native North Americans – Indians if you need me really to spell it out would have preferred it had you stayed in Europe. The ones that got wiped out were true Americans. The ones that are left are true Americans. So they certainly aren’t glad your ancestors left Europe. Do you get it now?
Oh and another thing. If a city is dirty you can clean it up. Lot of that going on in Europe at the moment, looks nice, come and have a look. But if you f–k the atmosphere up, and the weather, no amount of cleaning makes it right. It has nothing to do with dirt. And you don’t produce 25% of the world’s goods, unless you exclude food and other basic materials of life. You produce over 25% of the worlds carbondioxide emmissions. For 4.6% of the population that’s quite an achievement.
Now I really must leave you, hard as it is to part.
Wake me up when you’ve got rid of Bush, I have to go to work in the morning. Shouldn’t take you that long really.
One last thing, so I can sleep peacefully.
December 18th, 2005 at 7:08 pmWhat State are you from Mighty Aphrodite? You haven’t said and I haven’t assumed.
What European country am I from? I haven’t said but you have assumed.
I am European. My teeth are pretty good and I have lived in three different countries in Europe and worked in six.
nothing special about that. Just your assumption that I am English.
Buenos noches, schlaf gut, enjoy your life.
Stop Feeding The Trolls! They are here out of desperation. They are defeated and irrelevant. And welcome to the many refugees from the GOP. Welcome to liberal/progressive politics and until something better comes along, the Democratic party.
December 18th, 2005 at 7:39 pmblits?
LOL!
December 18th, 2005 at 7:41 pmMonday, December 19 2005. Today the Islamic Army posted a video that, according to them, contains the execution of American …Why ??Foreign Policy
Susanne Osthoff, the German woman taken hostage in Iraq, has been freed, Germany’s foreign minister says.Must have a decent honest foreign policy i think not like some WAKE UP SMELL THE COFFEE
December 19th, 2005 at 4:46 amListen all people you are responsible by buying American Goods — Please Botcott them . like most of us worldwide You cannot blame America if you still by their industrial products - You produce over 25% of the worlds carbondioxide emmissions. For 4.6% of the population that’s quite an achievement.DO NOT BUY UNTIL THEY SIGN KYOTO AGGREEMENT
December 19th, 2005 at 5:17 amGet a load of this:
If you have a look at an article on:
http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/17450 [why]
http://www.debka-net-weekly.com/?ref=001 [what is happening now]
as I understand it Iran in suggesting the use of the Euro as a main oil
currency, the US is fearful of the consequences of this.
None of these wars are about a benefit for the populations of either country,
they are about the benefit of the greedy billionaires who drive the whole
thing:
http://www.themoneymasters.com/
December 19th, 2005 at 6:36 am[...] FACT: DISCLOSURE OF PROGRAM DID NOT UNDERMINE NATIONAL SECURITY: After the New York Times published its story, President Bush and other top administration officials refused to confirm the existence of the surveillance program, arguing that doing so would endanger the American people. Bush said on Friday he wouldn’t "comment about the veracity of the story…because it would compromise our ability to protect the people." Press Secretary Scott McClellan and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice both repeated this line. Within hours, however, President Bush not only confirmed the existence of the program in a Saturday morning address, but provided details about how it worked. In other words, the administration’s initial refusal to comment was motivated by public relations, not security, concerns. The scope of surveillance under FISA — which has long been public — is the same under President Bush’s secretive program.FACT: RICE UNABLE TO EXPLAIN WHAT GAVE BUSH AUTHORITY TO EAVESDROP WITHOUT WARRANT: Yesterday, Condoleezza Rice was asked a simple question: what is the specific statute or law that gives President Bush the authority to eavesdrop on Americans without a warrant? She had no answer. Instead, Rice referenced unspecified "authorities that derive from his role as Commander in Chief and his need to protect the country," then explained she was "not a lawyer and I am quite certain that the Attorney General will address a lot of these questions." Indeed, Rice said several times that she is "not a lawyer." That fact is irrelevant. Rice was the National Security Adviser when President Bush authorized the NSA program, and said today that she was aware of Bush’s decision at the time. Shouldn’t she know why it was legal? [...]
December 19th, 2005 at 1:28 pmOn the day of the 9-11 attacks, former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was asked what the attack would mean for US-Israeli relations. His quick reply was: “It’s very good…….Well, it’s not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy (for Israel)”
The Five Dancing Israelis
Arrested On 9/11
As the world watched in disbelief and asked the question…
…Mossad operatives were seen dancing with joy.
A Mossad surveillance team made quite a public spectacle of themselves on 9-11.
The men set up cameras by the Hudson River and trained them on the twin towers. (1)
Police received several calls from angry New Jersey residents claiming “middle-eastern” men with a white van were videotaping the disaster with shouts of joy and mockery. (2)
“They were like happy, you know … They didn’t look shocked to me” said a witness. (3)
[T]hey were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage. (4)
Witnesses saw them jumping for joy in Liberty State Park after the initial impact (5). Later on, other witnesses saw them celebrating on a roof in Weehawken, and still more witnesses later saw them celebrating with high fives in a Jersey City parking lot. (6)
“It looked like they’re hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park.” (7)
One anonymous phone call to the authorities actually led them to close down all of New York’s bridges and tunnels. The mystery caller told the 9-1-1 dispatcher that a group of Palestinians were mixing a bomb inside of a white van headed for the Holland Tunnel. Here’s the transcript from NBC News:
Dispatcher: Jersey City police.
Caller: Yes, we have a white van, 2 or 3 guys in there, they look like Palestinians and going around a building.
Caller: There’s a minivan heading toward the Holland tunnel, I see the guy by Newark Airport mixing some junk and he has those sheikh uniform.
Dispatcher: He has what?
Caller: He’s dressed like an Arab. (8)
(*Writer’s note: Why would this mystery caller specifically say that these “Arabs” were Palestinians? How would he know that? Palestinians usually dress in western style clothes, not “sheikh uniforms”)
Based on that phone call, police then issued a “Be-on-the-Lookout” alert for a white mini-van heading for the city’s bridges and tunnels from New Jersey. When a van fitting that exact description was stopped just before crossing into New York, the suspicious “middle-easterners” were apprehended. Imagine the surprise of the police officers when these terror suspects turned out to be Israelis!
According to ABC’s 20/20, when the van belonging to the cheering Israelis was stopped by the police, the driver of the van, Sivan Kurzberg, told the officers:
“We are Israelis. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are your problem.”(9)
Why did he feel that Palestinians were a problem for the NYPD?
The police and FBI field agents became very suspicious when they found maps of the city with certain places highlighted, box cutters (the same items that the hijackers supposedly used), $4700 cash stuffed in a sock, and foreign passports. Police also told the Bergen Record that bomb sniffing dogs were brought to the van and that they reacted as if they had smelled explosives. (10)
The FBI seized and developed their photos, one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture. (11)
The Jerusalem Post later reported that a white van with a bomb was stopped as it approached the George Washington Bridge, but the ethnicity of the suspects was not revealed. Here’s what the Jerusalem Post reported on September 12, 2001:
American security services overnight stopped a car bomb on the George Washington Bridge. The van, packed with explosives, was stopped on an approach ramp to the bridge. Authorities suspect the terrorists intended to blow up the main crossing between New Jersey and New York, Army Radio reported. (12)
TCM Breaking News reported that the van was laden down with tonnes of explosives (13).
What’s really intriguing is that ABC’s 20/20 (14), the New York Post (15), and the New Jersey Bergen Record (16) all clearly and unambiguously reported that a white van with Israelis was intercepted on a ramp near Route 3, which leads directly to the Lincoln Tunnel.
But the Jerusalem Post, Israeli National News (Arutz Sheva) (17), and Yediot America (18), all reported, just as clearly and unambiguously, that a white van with Israelis was stopped on a ramp leading to the George Washington Bridge, which is several miles north of the Lincoln Tunnel.
It appears as if there may actually have been two white vans involved, one stopped on each crossing. This would not only explain the conflicting reports as to the actual location of the arrests, but would also explain how so many credible eye-witnesses all saw celebrating “middle-easterners” in a white van in so many different locations. It also explains why the New York Post and Steve Gordon (lawyer for the 5 Israelis) originally described how three Israelis were arrested but later increased the total to five.
Perhaps one van was meant to drop off a bomb while the other was meant to pick up the first set of drivers while re-crossing back into New Jersey? If a van was to be used as a parked time-bomb on the GW Bridge, then certainly the drivers would need to have a “get-away van” to pick them up and escape. And notice how the van (or vans) stayed away from the third major crossing -the Holland Tunnel- which was where the police had originally been directed to by that anti-Palestinian 9-1-1 “mystery caller”. A classic misdirection play.
From there, the story gets becomes even more suspicious. The Israelis worked for a Weehawken moving company known as Urban Moving Systems. An American employee of Urban Moving Systems told the The Record of New Jersey that a majority of his co-workers were Israelis and they were joking about the attacks.
The employee, who declined to give his name said: “I was in tears. These guys were joking and that bothered me. These guys were like, “Now America knows what we go through.” (19)
A few days after the attacks, Urban Moving System’s Israeli owner, Dominick Suter, dropped his business and fled the country for Israel. He was in such a hurry to flee America that some of Urban Moving System’s customers were left with their furniture stranded in storage facilities (20).
It was later confirmed that the five detained Israelis were in fact Mossad agents (21). They were held in custody for 71 days before being quietly released. Some of the movers had been kept in solitary confinement for 40 days. (22)
[S]everal of the detainees discussed their experience in America on an Israeli talk show after their return home.
Said one of the men, denying that they were laughing or happy on the morning of Sept. 11, “The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event.” (23)
How did they know there would be an event to document on 9/11?
It doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots of the dancing Israeli Mossad agents – here’s the most logical scenario:
1. The Israeli “movers” cheered the 9-11 attacks to celebrate the successful accomplishment of the greatest spy operation ever pulled off in history.
2. One of them, or an accomplice, then calls a 9-1-1 police dispatcher to report Palestinian bomb-makers in a white van headed for the Holland Tunnel.
3. Having thus pre-framed the Palestinians with this phone call, the Israeli bombers then head for the George Washington Bridge instead, where they will drop off their time-bomb van and escape with Urban Moving accomplices.
4. But the police react very wisely and proactively by closing off ALL bridges and tunnels instead of just the Holland Tunnel. This move inadvertently foils the Israelis’ misdirection play and leads to their own capture and 40 day torture.
5. To cover up this story, the U.S. Justice Department rounds up over 1000 Arabs for minor immigration violations and places them in New York area jails. The Israelis therefore become less conspicuous as the government and media can now claim that the Israelis were just immigration violators caught in the same dragnet as many other Arabs.
6. After several months, FBI and Justice Department “higher-ups” are able to gradually push aside the local FBI agents and free the Israelis quietly.
Osama bin Laden was immediately blamed for the 9-11 attacks even though he had no record of doing anything on this scale. Immediately after the Flight 11 hit WTC 1 CIA Director George Tenet said “You know, this has bin Laden’s fingerprints all over it.” ( 24)
The compliant mainstream media completely ignored the Israeli connection. Immediately following the 9-11 attacks the media was filled with stories linking the attacks to bin Laden. TV talking-heads, “experts”, and scribblers of every stripe spoon-fed a gullible American public a steady diet of the most outrageous propaganda imaginable.
We were told that the reason bin Laden attacked the USA was because he hates our “freedom” and “democracy”. The Muslims were “medieval” and they wanted to destroy us because they envied our wealth, were still bitter about the Crusades, and were offended by Britney Spears shaking her tits and ass all over the place!
But bin Laden strongly denied any role in the 9-11 attacks, and he suggested the attacks were orchestrated by Zionists. The BBC published bin Laden’s statement of denial in which he said:
“I was not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States nor did I have knowledge of the attacks. There exists a government within a government within the United States. The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; to the people who want to make the present century a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity. That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks. … The American system is totally in control of the Jews, whose first priority is Israel, not the United States.” (25)
You never heard that quote on your nightly newscast did you?
[A] number of intelligence officials have raised questions about Osama bin Laden’s capabilities. “This guy sits in a cave in Afghanistan and he’s running this operation?” one C.I.A. official asked. “It’s so huge. He couldn’t have done it alone.” A senior military officer told me that because of the visas and other documentation needed to infiltrate team members into the United States a major foreign intelligence service might also have been involved. (26)
To date, the only shred of “evidence” to be uncovered against bin Laden is a barely audible fuzzy amateur video that the Pentagon just happened to find “lying around” in Afghanistan. How very convenient, and how very fake. (27)
There is no evidence, be it hard or circumstantial, to link the Al Qaeda “terrorist network” to these acts of terror, but there is a mountain of evidence, both hard and circumstantial, which suggests that Zionists have been very busy framing Arabs for terror plots against America.
One last thing – at 09:40 a.m. on 9-11 it was reported that the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attacks (28). This claim was immediately denied by the DFLP leader Qais abu Leila who said it had always opposed “terror attacks on civilian targets, especially outside the occupied territories.” (29)
9/11 CNN streamed RealVideo item mentioning a Palestinian claim of responsibility
Why would a Palestinian organisation comprising of less than 500 people (30) make the suicidal move of immediately claiming responsibility for the 9-11 attacks?
Sharon and the other Israeli leaders aspire to fulfill what the goals of the political Zionist movement have been since its origin a century ago: to turn all of historic Palestine into an exclusively Jewish state. A central tenet of the Zionist ideology is expressed in the racist slogan, “A land without people for a people without a land.” (31)
The implication of Palestinians in the 9-11 attacks would have handed Zionists a golden opportunity to achieve the above because all Palestinians would have been labelled terrorists.
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“Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It’s classified information.”
US official quoted in Carl Cameron’s Fox News report on the Israeli spy ring.
“By way of deception, thou shalt do war”
Motto of the Mossad
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See also:
More suspicious Israeli ‘Movers’ detained with detailed video of Sears Tower
The FBI shut down of Arab Muslim web sites in the days leading up to 9/11
FBI Fury As Men With Nuke Plans, Valid Israeli Passports Escape
Hundreds of Mossad agents caught running wild in America!
Zionist Circles Benefit From WTC Collapse
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What Really Happened
December 19th, 2005 at 5:26 pmHere’s the deal … You simply create one of those old fashioned “Party Lines” (rotary users may recall) connect those folks fromj SAUDI ARABIA, PAKISTAN, TONY BLAIR, CHENEY et cabal, there by eliminating any need for wiretaps …. boycott cable, always somewhere to begin …
December 19th, 2005 at 5:45 pmjonpall- Now THAT’S a lefty idea that I’m sure the dems will grab on to! Stop fighting the terrorists! Hold their hands…understand them…give them twinkies…give them free long distance and a 10th seat on SCOTUS to show we just want to get along! jonpall is now channeling Carter in a disturbingly accurate way.
December 27th, 2005 at 4:41 pm“Now THAT’S a lefty idea that I’m sure the dems will grab on to! Stop fighting the terrorists!”
Why is it that the right-wing idea of a war on terrorism involves everything from stealing Iraq’s oil to flushing our Constitution down the toilet – everything but capturing Osama Bin Laden? Why do they pretend this is a war on terrorism, when it is obviosly a war on everything BUT terrorism.
December 28th, 2005 at 1:53 ammythologies superimposes delimited?permissible thanklessness … Thanks!!!
December 31st, 2005 at 7:55 amtrebor for DNC chairman! NOW we’re stealing Iraq’s oil…I’ll bet Bush is storing it in Texas until just the right time when he can light it on fire and burn up anti-war protestors in the flames…yeah, that’s the ticket….
January 2nd, 2006 at 3:08 pm