For 24 hours, Bush and other top administration officials refused to confirm the existence of their secret domestic spying program, arguing that doing so would endanger the American people:
President Bush, 12/16/05
I know that people are anxious to know the details of operations, they– people want me to comment about the veracity of the story. It’s the policy of this government, just not going do it, and the reason why is that because it would compromise our ability to protect the people.
Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 12/16/05:
This relates to intelligence activities and ongoing intelligence operations that are aimed at saving lives. And there’s a reason why we don’t get into discussing ongoing intelligence activities, because it could compromise our efforts to prevent attacks from happening.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, 12/16/05:
Well, I’m, again, not going to comment on intelligence activities because intelligence activities, by their very nature, are activities that are sensitive and that should not be compromised.
This morning, President Bush not only confirmed the existence of the program but provided details about how it worked.
This demonstrates that the administration’s initial refusal to comment was not motivated by security concerns. If that was the case Bush still wouldn’t have been able to comment this morning. Rather, the refusal to comment was a public relations strategy. When they decided it wasn’t working, they scrapped it and tried something else.
I want the names and details of the non-terrorists they’ve been surveilling.
December 17th, 2005 at 4:45 pm“Compromise our efforts” will need to go on the list of Top GOP Sound Bites:
December 17th, 2005 at 4:54 pmThank GOD Democrats are not behind the wheel. Bush, asleep, can run this war better than any Democrat because of the left-wing’s vitrolic hatred which blurs their policy sense. Bush was not wiretapping average Americans - it was people like Muhammad Atta - the left’s post 9-11 Jesus Christ. He was trying to protect America - how disgusting that liberals suggest otherwise.
AND Judd, who cares about PR strategy? We are trying to fight a war agaisnt radical Islam.
December 17th, 2005 at 4:54 pmI think it provides proof that the President is not that bright, he was not prepared to talk about it with Jim.
December 17th, 2005 at 4:56 pmAt what point do think it’s ok to assume a little more from our leading foreign policy advocate? 5 years folks, where’s the Grokka? Painfully unarticulate doesn’t
December 17th, 2005 at 4:56 pmcut it for me. He should have to answer questions just like Tony Blair. Do I admire that
availability? Absolutely. His nuanced folksyness is great for jokes but this is our money and our lives. If things are so bad just tell us.You cannot blame the civil libertarians for being gaurded about domestic surveilance. If the dots connect call a judge. What do they make themselves available for? Remember this is the GOP who for years under WJC sounded the pannea WE dont need more gun laws we need the ones on the books enforced.The belt way sniper case follow the penalty for the gun shop owners defense arising from the fact that the weapon came from his shop in Wa. state. One of the 150 reported stolen or missing to the ATF from that owner. Well where is the federal enforcement?
lies, lies, iesThe King is Dead; Long Live…….?
December 17th, 2005 at 5:00 pmPolitical opponents=Terrorists=Peace activists=political opponents=terrorists=anti-war activists=political opponents=terrorists.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:00 pmThe president did not reveal details of the program. Judd is lying again.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:00 pmBush could have done this legally with the same results. It can only be because he wants to abuse his power. The precedent is already established for this behavior.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:02 pmJust again proves that Bush is a moron who has no idea what he’s doing. He should run home to daddy and get help.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:04 pmI’ve said it before. Bush being on Lehrer is a sure sign Bush is in serious trouble.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:05 pm#11. What do we want Bush on?
December 17th, 2005 at 5:08 pmThank you, New York Times!!!! If (or more likely when) we endure another terror attack, I will direct a portion of my anger at the “news”paper that describes itself with the quaint cliche “all the news thats fit to print”. But to be fair, I will share that anger with the “misunderstood” perpertrators. (Libs are fond of “sharing”, right?)
December 17th, 2005 at 5:10 pmBush being on Löwenbräu is a sure sign Bush is in serious trouble.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:13 pmYour speaking style lacks clarity, mighty aphrodite. Try fewer incidentals, more substance.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:16 pmMA. You have atracked so much of your anger towards the uncommited. Do you find your self there, wondering, where might i refine my thoughts. Please be more specfiic if you can about what part of stepping into hemmroid village dont you get.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:16 pmas much as i don’t like to think about it, i know in my heart of hearts that arthur’s right… we’re only seeing the tip of the iceberg…
—————
I find it close to impossible to believe that any adult in America didn’t think things like this have been going on for some time. Second, given all the other assaults on individual rights and the rule of law engaged in by the Bush administration — does anyone think for one second that this is even close to the worst of the abuses now taking place? If you do, I suggest you get back in touch with reality as quickly as possible.
————
i think the most shocking of the revelations are yet to come…
http://takeitpersonally.blogspot.com/
December 17th, 2005 at 5:17 pm#12,
December 17th, 2005 at 5:18 pmOn the way to Crawford for his retirement.
#9 - “Bush could have done this legally with the same results.” Comment by Karl Levin
December 17th, 2005 at 5:19 pm******Please, Karl, don’t tell me you wield sharp knives in your kitchen - you are a danger to yourself and others. Obviously, you know little, or more likely, nothing about which you speak. If NSA receives a tip that Omar the Crazed Tentmaker is planning on calling Sammy the Pi$$ed-off Syrian with operational modifications or updates, minutes count!!!
In college I quickly learned that quality music required no time/meter/bar/incidental signatures. That the music would tell you what to do as you journey through the notes. I find this phenemena consistant with other art forms, including speech. You just don’t have it mighty aphrodite.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:21 pm#16 - FlyBoy - Please read and edit your garbled posting. It is impossible to understand due to your poor typing , grammar and/or spelling. (One or two missed keystrokes is understandable, but this is a mess…..)
December 17th, 2005 at 5:22 pmI’ll bet the NSA gets most of it’s “tips” from the White House, mighty. But don’t worry, I’ll try to love Uncle Bush and his endless love for me and you.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:24 pmI’m so glad we elected the steady hand of Bush instead of the flip flopper Kerry.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:24 pmI find repeated use of commas a sure sign of schizophrenia.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:25 pmKarl - “brilliant” counter-argument…not at all on point, but what does an srtist need with a point? I had a feeling you were the PBS type….
December 17th, 2005 at 5:25 pmOH I beg to differ. I think you just love the attention whether it’s grammatically correct or not. Please refund any money anyone has lost because of my sloppy delivery. Back to your howling Luv?
December 17th, 2005 at 5:25 pm#19,
December 17th, 2005 at 5:25 pmW didn’t react to 9/11, and it was quite a while after the planes turned off their FAA transponders - like an hour from the first.
here is the stats on the FISA court and their rubber stamp proceedings.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:27 pmhttp://www.epic.org/ privacy/ wiretap/ stats/ fisa_stats.html
I think bush got a bit upset that ashcroft had one denied, the first, and it had to go to an appeals court, the first ever convened.
#25 Correction Karl - “artist”
December 17th, 2005 at 5:29 pmBlah blah blah blah!!!!!!!!!!
December 17th, 2005 at 5:29 pmGotta go!****!!!
The Mr. Aphrodite is having a candle light dinner under the floor tonight!, oops!,said too much! Cheerio!, Gotta go swallow/process the jewels!
“We are trying to fight a war agaisnt radical Islam.”
How odd, I thought it was a war against terrorism.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:32 pmMA RE: “minutes count” That rationalization has already been debunked. Try to keep up.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:33 pmThat’s my understanding also, Allen. Warrants obtained after-the-fact being a common practice.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:35 pm[…] Read more Bush […]
December 17th, 2005 at 5:36 pmFISA Court judges are on 24/7 call and will, in fact, authorize telephone warrants that last until further documentation is seen. These warrants are not difficult to get.
Of the 4 rejected in 2003 (the first 4 to EVER be rejected) three were withdrawn and the fourth was appealed and won.
Now, what do you think happened to the 3 that were withdrawn? I am guessing that Bush signed presidential authorizations giving legal cover to NSA officials to conduct operations that were legally suspect. 3 of his 3 dozen?
December 17th, 2005 at 5:37 pmFISA allows federal officials to conduct survelliance prior to obtaining a warrant provided that a warrant could reasonably be secured, that it will filed immediately, etc. This is not some sort of difficult thing. It is, however, an annoyance/burden for DOJ lawyers as the numbers of questionable/more difficult cases get ramped up..
December 17th, 2005 at 5:39 pmsorry for the double post. I seem to have clicked twice. So sad.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:40 pmOn the topic of the article @ hand … I for one have never really been surprised when the, erm, consistency of the brown thing coiling out of Dubya’s mouth suddenly changed.
Disgusted, yes. Surprised, no.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:40 pmtrolls: ‘go hide underground,the terrust are a com’in,and the KILLER BEES!’ Spy saves American lives…why not just put chips in our necks to track us all?????..what a crock.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:41 pmHappy Impeachment mr SPYGATE scum.
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December 17th, 2005 at 5:46 pmYou know Bush is in serious trouble with the trolls and RabidReichWingNutWackJobs support/defend illegal activities.
Who was the (R)Congressmen I saw on the NightlyNews standing before the nations saying “… this was clearly illegal activity on the part of this administration…”? Oh ya, he was one of Bush’s strongest supporters. And he’s calling Bush out for the error in his ways.
BushCo is THE MOST FAILED Presidency ever.
It’s time to pack this lying thieving b*****d up, throw him onto a plane, and deliver him to the Hague to stand trail for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Oh, and those who defend Bush? Send them too.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:48 pmThe neocons suffer from oral diarrhea, everyone of them. W has has a severe case, and passed it on to Scottie.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:48 pmBush got caught with his hands in the cookie jar, hid in his room for a while then came storming out saying, “I have every right to do it without your permission, and I’ll keep doing it as often as I want, so there!”
December 17th, 2005 at 5:51 pmAnd speaking of having nothing to hide, I’d like one of these neocon chumps to answer one simple question — if They’re not doing anything wrong, why do they keep on trying to cover it all up? We don’t torture but we need an exemption, and now we won’t do it anymore. Jesus Christ, these people can’t keep their story straight for five minutes at a time.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:52 pmRather amazing how the trolls are allowed to change their handles and flood the threads, and no action by the host.
“We are trying to fight a war for radical Islam.”
So far, we have
• allowed the US to be attacked despite a mountain of warnings,
• attacked a disarmed country killing tens of thousands of innocent people whose family members now despise us,
• distributed 450 shoulder-fired missiles to hostiles,
• handed out 280 tons of high explosive,
• allowed the looting of cesium and strontium from unguarded nuclear material reserves in Iraq,
• allowed Bin Laden to escape when cornered in Tora Bora,
• become allies with Islamic terrorists Moahmar Kadafi and Islam Karimov,
• allowed Pakistan nuke-secrets scientist to continue to spread the Gospel of Good Nukes to N. Korea and Iran,
• allowed nuclear materials to remain unguarded in the former Soviet Union,
• outed an entire front operation of the CIA working in counter-proliferation, including outing one spy by name,
• outed the UK’s mole in Al Qaeda, who was in contact with operatives in the US planning another attack,
• fostered the largest opium crop in Afghanistan history, providing vast funds for international terrorism,
• harbored admitted terrorist Posada Carriles,
• installed terrorist U. Allawi as Prime Minister of illegally-invaded Iraq,
• forced our troops to fight next to multi-national mercenaries and rightwing deathsquads with no legal responsibilities,
• botched the domestic security to the tune of F’s and D-’s, spending nothing on the ports, among other issues left to hang,
• opened our borders and heartlands to tens of thousands of uninspected Mexican semi-trucks, each carrying 70 tons of who knows what,
• killed almost 100 journalists.
Oohrah, that’s really getting the ‘job’ done on America.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:52 pmYou know Bush is in serious trouble when the trolls and RabidReichWingNutWackJobs support/defend illegal activities.
Flying fingers. Sorry.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:53 pmLive Vote
Was President Bush right to authorize NSA eavesdropping on Americans? * 104376 responses
Yes; it was essential for national security
26%
No; it’s unconstitutional
69%
I’m not sure
4%
I don’t care
1%
Not a scientifically valid survey. Click to learn more.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:53 pmMinutes count, unless you’re reading “My Pet Goat.”
December 17th, 2005 at 5:54 pm#48,
December 17th, 2005 at 5:56 pmThe words were too big and the plot too thick.
I hope that one day the citizens of this country will be able to distinguish real ability from crude bluster, and will choose their Presidents on better criteria than her/him being the person “they’d rather have a beer with.”
I for one wouldn’t want to have a beer with Dubya: I’d be dead bored and I would keep having to explain my big words and frightening references to luxuries such as visual art and literature.
As far as him being made of plain baryonic matter and all, fine, plop him in the stool next to me so it doesn’t rock back and forth. I’m sure he’d be up to that task. So I’d sit next to him and drink beer but I’d rather someone interesting worked and voiced the rumpled, impotent vent figure we call George W. Bush.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:57 pm“When they decided it wasn’t working, they scrapped it and tried something else.”
I think when the NYT puts profits ahead of national security and still gets it wrong it’s incumbent on the White House to straighten it out. This has been done. What hasn’t been done is the hanging of the leakers. I think when we start hanging these traitors who tell the world our secrets it should be done on live television and make all the public broadcasting companies run it. Speaking of dead traitors I hear Jack Anderson went down for the dirt nap today.
Here’s the text of Bush’s radio address this morning just in case any of you losers want to know what’s really going on.
As the 9/11 Commission pointed out, it was clear that terrorists inside the United States were communicating with terrorists abroad before the September the 11th attacks, and the commission criticized our nation’s inability to uncover links between terrorists here at home and terrorists abroad. Two of the terrorist hijackers who flew a jet into the Pentagon, Nawaf al Hamzi and Khalid al Mihdhar, communicated while they were in the United States to other members of al Qaeda who were overseas. But we didn’t know they were here, until it was too late.
The authorization I gave the National Security Agency after September the 11th helped address that problem in a way that is fully consistent with my constitutional responsibilities and authorities. The activities I have authorized make it more likely that killers like these 9/11 hijackers will be identified and located in time. And the activities conducted under this authorization have helped detect and prevent possible terrorist attacks in the United States and abroad.
The activities I authorized are reviewed approximately every 45 days. Each review is based on a fresh intelligence assessment of terrorist threats to the continuity of our government and the threat of catastrophic damage to our homeland. During each assessment, previous activities under the authorization are reviewed. The review includes approval by our nation’s top legal officials, including the Attorney General and the Counsel to the President. I have reauthorized this program more than 30 times since the September the 11th attacks, and I intend to do so for as long as our nation faces a continuing threat from al Qaeda and related groups.
The NSA’s activities under this authorization are thoroughly reviewed by the Justice Department and NSA’s top legal officials, including NSA’s general counsel and inspector general. Leaders in Congress have been briefed more than a dozen times on this authorization and the activities conducted under it. Intelligence officials involved in this activity also receive extensive training to ensure they perform their duties consistent with the letter and intent of the authorization.
This authorization is a vital tool in our war against the terrorists. It is critical to saving American lives. The American people expect me to do everything in my power under our laws and Constitution to protect them and their civil liberties. And that is exactly what I will continue to do, so long as I’m the President of the United States.
Thank you.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/ news/ releases/ 2005/ 12/ 20051217.html
December 17th, 2005 at 5:58 pm#45 - GREAT list. Like you, I’d love to see how the trolls and disciples of Bush the Stupid defend against Truth.
That ANYONE would defend the actions of a man who has CLEARLY broken the law is insane!
It really amazes me. The NeoCon WackJobs wanted power soooo badly that they were willing to steal two elections (2000, 2004). Once in power, they did all the wrong things. They have shown time after time after time that they don’t know how to govern. They don’t know how to tell the truth. They don’t know how to deal in reality.
December 17th, 2005 at 5:59 pmLive Vote
December 17th, 2005 at 6:01 pmWas President Bush right to authorize NSA eavesdropping on Americans? * 104376 responses
Yes; it was essential for national security
26%
No; it’s unconstitutional
69%
I’m not sure
4%
I don’t care
1%
wallace, the transcript of the radio address is on the white house web site. “The activities I authorized are reviewed every 45 days. Each review is based on a fresh intelligence assessment of terrorist threats…….The review includes approval by our nation’s top legal officials, including the Attorney General and the Counsel to the President. I have authorized this program more than 30 times since the 9/11 attacks,and I intend to do so….”
Sounds kind of detailed to me,I can only conclude that Judd is correct and you lied about him lying.
Not that mighty aphrodite cares but the NYT published this story more than a year after the information came to them and only after negotiating with the government about certain parts of the story which the NYT chose not to publish as a result.
Carry on.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:01 pmI guess it being bold makes it legal?
December 17th, 2005 at 6:02 pmCheap excuses. That’s all this administration’s got.
I think forcing Chimpy McFlightsuit to write “I will take my PDB seriously” 100 times on the blackboard would be a much greater benefit to national security than illegally tapping phones.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:03 pmNot good for bush,
December 17th, 2005 at 6:03 pmI just love how these idiot trolls are so willing to give up the very thing those evil terrorist hate about us…our freedoms!
December 17th, 2005 at 6:04 pm“Speaking of dead traitors I hear Jack Anderson went down for the dirt nap today.”
Awwwww, did he besmirch the armor of one of your testosterone-soaked, half-crazed heroes? How very sad.
The best I can say for GWB is that I will outlive him and be able to stand in a long line of people waiting to take a giant steaming shit on his grave.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:05 pm#58.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:05 pmJoin the military, go to IRAQ, HURRY Before YOU Lose your FREEDOMS!
It sure would be nice to have the names of the people in Congress he talked to. Why is that a secret?
December 17th, 2005 at 6:08 pmDear Friends,
My web site has been turned off before my contract was up, so please help me to fight this issue. 202-248-6560 or email childofgod7@rcn.com http://www.forgottenvets.com
December 17th, 2005 at 6:08 pmSincerly
John Evans childofgod7@rcn.com
So it was only detrimental to protecting the American public until they could get their story straight. They must have felt that, after a year, the NYT was not going to release the story, so they didn’t have something prepared. Today the Criminal-in-Chief not only confirms that he did it, he’s proud of himself and he would do it again.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:11 pmWill someone tell the man he is not Emperor, he is not dictator Hitler, he is not Caesar — he is the elected President who myust abide the American Constitution.
That a federal criminal is allowed to occupy the White House is a travesty.
MSNBC Home » Technology & Science » Science
December 17th, 2005 at 6:11 pmThe Northeast is moving south
Effects of glaciers still being felt, a millimeter at a time
#51,
December 17th, 2005 at 6:12 pmSo 36 days is not adequate warning. Why do North Korea, China, Iran, Pakistan and Russia invest so much in missiles? They could deliver their weapons in sampans or pole boats.
MSNBC Home » Technology & Science » Science
The Northeast is moving south
Effects of glaciers still being felt, a millimeter at a time
Related to earthquakes?
Compared to California, geologic activity east of the Rockies is tame. But significant earthquakes do occur.
Researchers have warned repeatedly in recent years that the New Madrid zone will eventually produce another devastating quake in what is now a highly populated region.
“If you look at the geological records, you can see there have been other events of similar magnitudes that have occurred approximately every 500 years or so, going back maybe 2000-3000 years,” said Glen Mattioli, a geophysicist at the University of Arkansas involved in the study. “So it’s that combination of things that gives rise to the idea that we could have another event of some magnitude that is undetermined.”
Geologists expect an eventual earthquake in the New Madrid zone as strong as magnitude-8.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:15 pmThe trolls keep coming here because some of the posters here keep feeding them. This has been discussed before, obviously to little effect.
NYT reports:
But this seems to contradict Bush’s rationale and suggests that law enforcement and official bungling - not a lack of administrative tools, was to blame.
A more sinister view of the ‘bungling’.
Anybody familiar with the specifics of these two individuals and their significance in this scenario?
Here’s some Plamegate news for all Rove haters…
December 17th, 2005 at 6:16 pmDecember 17th, 2005 at 6:17 pm
If only King Kong was real, and Republicans tasted like bananas
December 17th, 2005 at 6:17 pmIt’s laughable to read the comments form the extreme right wing trolls here who would so readily discard the Constitution because their leader says it’s OK.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:18 pmImagine in the future, what parts of the Constitution they would yearn for if their rights were suddenly abridged because of the vitriol they spew. They can don their little brown shirts and walk in lock step now because they think it makes them patriotic, but when their leaders find something wrong with the way they march or the way they salute, they will reach for their rights under the Constitution pretty quick.
#69,
December 17th, 2005 at 6:26 pmMike,
I would change the reference towards Republicans to Neocons and DINOs.
#47
wwallace- You have helped to confirm with the poll why the bubble president is the worst we have in this country.
I knew you’d see things our way ;)
December 17th, 2005 at 6:31 pm#59.
Glenn, I’d be in the same line as you. But when we get to Bubble Boy’s grave don’t forget to piss, then shit on his grave. That way, that grave will have a smell only the trolls will love. ;)
December 17th, 2005 at 6:36 pm[Comment deleted by admin.]
December 17th, 2005 at 6:40 pm#8, below are direct quotes from today’s Presidential Weekly Address. Sound like specific details to me.
In the weeks following the terrorist attacks on our nation, I authorized the National Security Agency, consistent with U.S. law and the Constitution, to intercept the international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations. Before we intercept these communications, the government must have information that establishes a clear link to these terrorist networks.
This is a highly classified program that is crucial to our national security. Its purpose is to detect and prevent terrorist attacks against the United States, our friends and allies.
The activities I authorized are reviewed approximately every 45 days. Each review is based on a fresh intelligence assessment of terrorist threats to the continuity of our government and the threat of catastrophic damage to our homeland. During each assessment, previous activities under the authorization are reviewed. The review includes approval by our nation’s top legal officials, including the Attorney General and the Counsel to the President. I have reauthorized this program more than 30 times since the September the 11th attacks, and I intend to do so for as long as our nation faces a continuing threat from al Qaeda and related groups.
The NSA’s activities under this authorization are thoroughly reviewed by the Justice Department and NSA’s top legal officials, including NSA’s general counsel and inspector general. Leaders in Congress have been briefed more than a dozen times on this authorization and the activities conducted under it. Intelligence officials involved in this activity also receive extensive training to ensure they perform their duties consistent with the letter and intent of the authorization.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:40 pm#73.
JIMBO -
It’s going to be a long line and a long wait - worth it, though.
But I agree, a liquid component will make it more likely that the combined effluvia will leach down into the soil and (I hope) utterly soil whatever ragged, worm-scorned threads of rotted, chickenhawk, privileged-and-bored fratboy flesh remain on his rubbery bones.
But how do I _really_ feel … ?
December 17th, 2005 at 6:43 pm#19, this could still have been accomplished legally even with minutes counting. The AG is allowed to begin these proceedings immediately in cases where urgency is necessary as long as the court who decides the warrant is notified within 72 hours. The problem is the administration didn’t even follow the law designed to allow them to do this in your incredibly racist scenario.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:44 pmIt seems that Bush was never taught about that little document that we call the Bill of Rights while studying at Yale. How convenient for him.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:49 pm#28, thanks for the stats! Just proves what was on the news yesterday — the court, with very few exceptions, approves every warrant request put before it.
That, #19, is why your argument is ridiculous.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:51 pmHotline On Call notes that the law required the White House to notify the leaders of the House and Senate about the domestic surveillance program confirmed earlier by President Bush.
House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) admited she knew about it. Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid’s (D-NV)office hasn’t responded yet.
December 17th, 2005 at 6:52 pmThe members of Congress who were briefed by Bush on the secret spying program all these years are in effect accomplices to a crime. Just because a few congressmen knew about it doesn’t make it legal. Bush still had the obligation to follow the law and procedures specified, including obtaining a court order in order to spy on US citizens. What Bush declared today is that being president gives him the right to do whatever he pleases as long as he justifies it in the name of his “War on Terror.”
December 17th, 2005 at 6:54 pm#78,
December 17th, 2005 at 6:55 pmW was in the BizAdmin program where they teach you to lie, cheat and steal. Why he did not get straight A’s escapes me. Maybe he was cutting brush - more likely smoking grass.
Yea that pesky truth thingy is always gettin in the way, ain’t it Mr Bush?
December 17th, 2005 at 7:00 pm#44, Interesting point. Goes hand in hand with today’s conservative talking point of “If you’re not doing anything wrong, why are you worried about being observed?”
Guess the same can be said of this administration, huh? If they’re not doing anything wrong, why do they keep trying to hide it?
December 17th, 2005 at 7:02 pmI do not understand why a citizen would side with any particular administration against his fellow citizens. Have we become a nation of sheep? The idea that America now faces a greater threat than at any time in our history is absurd. There is no reason to suspend our once protected civil liberties, there was no reason for the behemoth Department of Homeland Security, (117,000 government employees.) Our intelligence agencies got their wake-up call. They would not make the same mistake again, if indeed it was a mistake. There are only two reasons for the existence of the DHS, one was to create a distraction from the administration’s horrible blunder and the other was to spy on Americans. GWB and his administration do not deserve the right to torture, nor the right to spy on Americans who are not suspected of committing a crime, nor should they have the right to treat all Americans as suspects. This is not supposed to be an imitation of the Soviet Union’s manner of coping with the problems that face our society. Yes, there are risks to living in a free society, but I much prefer those risks to tyranny. We are not all cowards.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:02 pm#51…
Shall we start with those who told the world about our secret CIA agent Valerie Plame?
And, since you selectively included text of the Presidential Weekly Address, here are his comments that also apply:
“Yesterday the existence of this secret program was revealed in media reports, after being improperly provided to news organizations. As a result, our enemies have learned information they should not have, and the unauthorized disclosure of this effort damages our national security and puts our citizens at risk. Revealing classified information is illegal, alerts our enemies, and endangers our country.”
It was said IMMEDIATELY preceeding what you included in your post, and ironically could just as easily apply to the Plame case.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:11 pmNow hear this Mr.Bush can run again for the second term,
December 17th, 2005 at 7:14 pmyou know why?
The first term did’nt count as he was appointed by the supreme court, last election he was elected as the president for the first time therefore legally he can run again.
As Mr. Bush have said God tells him to do this or say that!Who knows may be what ever he is saying and doing is being told by God??? please explore!
All I can say is may we all wake up before its to late.
#61, the Congressmen who were briefed were unable to tell anyone about the program because doing so would violate the Espionage Act and put them in legal jeopardy.
Notice that Bush didn’t mention that some of the people notified reportedly opposed the measure, but were unable to do anything about it, including bring it to light for the above reason.
It reminds me of how Bush always talks about things being bipartisan because Zell Miller or Joe Lieberman voted with Republicans. One Democrat and 50+ Republicans does NOT make something bipartisan. He also has a tendency to say something passed through Congress unanimously on things where no recorded votes were required so there’s no way to verify it. I don’t understand why people don’t call him on this crap.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:17 pmI think the real story here, is that every time the Bush admin is in trouble for something, they pull the old, “you’re endangering the mission” card.
It seems as if everything is endangering the mission.
Man someone would have to be really, really stupid to swallow that over and over.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:17 pmJust how the hell does it hurt our national security to know that Bush actually gave the National Security Agency permission to spy on us, officially, (or was it unofficially)?
Do you honestly think terrorists are sitting there saying, “gee Achmed, don’t worry, they can’t listen to your side of the conversation, speak freely my friend.”?
December 17th, 2005 at 7:20 pmIf the Democrats have their way, they will.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:22 pm#89, meet #2. You don’t get any more stupid than that.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:22 pmI think it would be safe to assume the terrorists already had a pretty good idea that the NSA was out to get them.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:22 pmSorry, I stand corrected. “wwallace” at #91 is even more of a waterhead.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:23 pm#51, so lets see what those pesky hijackers are up to today!
9:39 a.m. Crashed into Pentagon
Khalid Almihdhar
Khalid Almihdhar
Still Alive2
Lived w/FBI20 Majed Moqed
Majed Moqed Nawaf Alhazmi
Nawaf Alhazmi
Lived w/FBI20 Salem Alhazmi
Salem Alhazmi
Still Alive6
BL Video12 Hani Hanjour
Hani Hanjour
Lacked alleged
flying ability19
If you would like to see them here is the link.
http://www.welfarestate.com/911/
So you trust the 911 Commission, which was put in place and hand picked by Bush? Even thought they were only allowed to investigate what went wrong, and not the facts to how things that are out of place happened?
You are living in some kind of fantasy world. Maybe you should share what your on so the rest of us won’t give a damn either.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:24 pmJust to review, we invaded Iraq because it was: a country ruled by a dictator with no regard for domestic or international law, fake elections with predetermined outcomes, a rubber stamp legislature and puppet courts, had weapons of mass destruction and imprisons and tortures its perceived enemies.
Maybe Canada can invade us to spread democracy here.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:25 pmShemp, calling me names will never change any of the facts I’ve posted.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:25 pmI don’t think any democrats want terrorists to speak freely on our phones. But that’s why there are warrants, judges, process and law.
I know they are incumberences to you, but that’s the price of liberty.
Don’t like it? Move to Russia.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:26 pm#70, think this means they’ll have to change their mantra about wanting someone who will strictly interpret the Constitution for the Supreme Court? They could change it to wanting someone who will strictly interpret Bush’s interpretation of the Constitution.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:26 pmBut don’t dare question liberals’ patriotism! LOL
December 17th, 2005 at 7:27 pmMaybe Canada can invade us to spread democracy here.
Comment by Impeach Bush
Maybe Canada will Impeach Bush, accompanied by the entire EU.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:27 pm#97,
December 17th, 2005 at 7:27 pmSo please post two facts so cannot change them - waiting.
But don’t dare question liberals’ patriotism! LOL
Comment by wwallace — December 17, 2005 @ 7:27 pm
wwallace, sorry but your dumber than you sound.
You knew he was being ironic.
This is how you thugs distort the facts.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:28 pmAnd BTW, if it does happen, what would you do?
I mean it, suppose the EU decides that “regime change” is critical to America.
What would you do?
December 17th, 2005 at 7:30 pmIf you are half the warrior you try to sound like, you would do exactly what the Iraqi insurgency is doing today.
You’d fight for your freedom, to choose good or evil, yourself.
That’s what you’d do.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:31 pmYou can’t force democracy down peoples throats, and you can’t bring democracy to your own people, by spying on them.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:32 pm#104, I used to ask people that same question at the start of the Iraq invasion when they were all so Toby Keith gung-ho on kicking butt. A pre-emptive war against a country with weapons of mass destruction that could be used against other countries… what if someone decided to pre-emptively invade OUR COUNTRY? They’d usually give the “We’ll kick their ass” response. Of course, none of those folks are fighting the Iraq invasion from anywhere but their comfy sofas.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:35 pmPersonally, I think an invasion of the US is imminent.
I have written lengthy posts on this very topic. We need to stop worrying about all the terrorists, and start learning to get along with our neighbors.
The EU is investigating us right now for international war crimes. The new Chinese-Russo alliance is an ever growing threat, and have participated in the first ever joint operations that could easily be seen as practice for their own invasion of Iraq, or to repel US forces from Taiwan.
The Peoples Liberation Army is millions strong, with an ever increasing naval build up as well as increasing Air defense spending and of course Russia has massive firepower and nuclear capability, not to mention a lot of soldiers.
Throw in the North Korean Army, and all we got left is Dr. Strangebush.
You ready for Armageddon? Cause they are.
And Bush, and everyone who drank the Kool-Aid is ready to usher in the new millennium with one big loud final bang.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:45 pmDr. Strangebush, or how I learned to love the BUM.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:48 pmDS, I like the “none of those folks are fighting the Iraq invasion from anywhere but their comfy sofas.” The good ole chickenhawk argument. It’s always a good one. I find it ironic since the logiical extension of the argument is that only those in the military should be able to determine what the U.S. does with the military. I am guessing you wouldn’t like the majority of the responses from military people.
By the way, I like idea of this post. So Think Progress is by default saying that the NYT should not have published the story?
December 17th, 2005 at 7:49 pmThe W regime planned for regime change in Iraq even before it took office. Follow this link:
December 17th, 2005 at 7:49 pmhttp://www.itszone.co.uk/ zone0/ viewtopic.php?t=1970&start=0 in order to see there were rumblings well before 9/11/2001.
You can’t force democracy down people’s throat’s, and you can’t bring democracy to your own people by spying on them.
December 17th, 2005 at 7:56 pm#98 - “I don’t think any democrats want terrorists to speak freely on our phones. But that’s why there are warrants, judges, process and law.” - WorFEus
December 17th, 2005 at 8:02 pm****** “I don’t think?….” I don’t know, WorFEus, the way so many guilt-ridden Dems “think”, that’s quite a claim? When I hear too many college profs sympathize with the plight of the poor, benighted terrorists - I feel ill. Damn, with that much angst about their countries history, capitalism, inequitites, global warming, carbon footprints, grizzly bears, support of Israel, ANWR, gay marriage, etc. ad nauseum I wouldn’t be surprised if a few of the “enlightened” Dems or RCP’ers helped Al Zawahiri draw up the plans.
KING george has spoken he is OMNIPOTENT . He is the LAW .He can do as he damn well please . There no CONSTITUTION no CONGRESS no SUPREME COURT . Next he he will call himself the american JESUS CHRIST .He is BIG DADDY
December 17th, 2005 at 8:02 pmWe know better he puts his pants the same way we do . He takes a merde the same way we do . In his case he may take longer , FOR HE IS FULL OF IT.
WorFEus - again we FORCED the South to remain in the Union. History is larger than your lifetime.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:04 pmWhat a laugh: ?we are better with Bush than flip-flopper Kerry! Bush has always been the flip flopper! This last week alone Bush has flip-flopped on two things: 1) not talking about his NSA game and 2) not talking about Republicans under indictment. Typical Rove - accuse the other guy first of what you yourself do! (e.g., blame game, etc.)
December 17th, 2005 at 8:04 pmOk, you’re starting to loose those respect points Aprhodite.
Thats a red herring and you know it. No one in here, or anyone anywhere supports terrorists and implying it is hubris.
And the Iraqi insurgency are not terrorists.
They’re the Iraqi people we said we were not going there to kill.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:06 pm#109 - WE THE PEOPLE need to see the complete list of “suspects†of the NSA, CIA, FBI, and Pentagon BECAUSE either one of two things is true…” - Linda
December 17th, 2005 at 8:11 pm****** Dear Linda - Good news!! You’ve been nominated to be the official “watcher” of named terror suspects!! Comparing terror suspects to pedophiles is undoubtedly THE MOST ridiculous thing I’ve read here this afternoon - Congratulations!!! Your reasoning is evidence that we need to keep a close tabs on radical barbarians. Now, please tell me you don’t teach impressionable young minds. You are forgiven for your naivete if, and only if, you are a college student going to school on Mom and Dad’s dime.
again we FORCED the South to remain in the Union
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Last time I checked there professor, Iraq was not affixed to the lower half of our continent.
Nice try.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:14 pmBTW, the point here of this blog is that everytime we learn that the President did something wrong or illegal, he turns to the “were at war speech”.
And, “you’re hurtin the troops”.
If you support that then no one can help you.
You need a brain transplant or something.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:19 pmRight wing ignorance (this means you, mighty aphrodite) is truly a wonderous thing to behold…
As several have pointed out, to have NSA spy on Americans all Bush needed was a warrent from the FISA Court, a court which essentially has never refused a warrent.
U.S. Federal law clearly says doing so without a warrent, or ordering it done, is a felony (each count) punishable by 5yrs in the slammer. Additionally, the oath Bush took said he would support/defend the Constitution, including that little part that said he would obey the laws of the U.S.
He’s now admitted violating his oath, the Constitution, and Federal law…
Oh, and as someone who worked (indirectly) for NSA for 15yrs, may I point out the appropriate US Directives on the issue very clearly say it is a crime to target US citizens and/or corporations without a warrent. It also says if you inadvertently hear US citizens/corporations or about US citizens/corporations, there are strict rules on how to handle it so as to NOT spread the info around. Finally, the Directive also clearly spells out that if you hear anything concerning a threat against the US, a US citizen, or a US corporation, you can spy as long as they are talking about it and pass it along to DIA/CIA/FBI and anyone else appropriate. But if you hear “Omar the Tentmaker” calling “Sammi the Syrian”, well, since they ain’t Americans you ain’t breaking any laws collecting on them! So your argument is a typical conservative strawman position!
It’ll be interesting to see how the GOP handle this…I mean, if lying under oath about your personal sex life calls for impeachment, at a minimum admitting to the commission of several thousand felonies should at least result in impeachment and jail time, shouldn’t it?
Or will this be more IOKIYAR???
December 17th, 2005 at 8:20 pm#123, Bush will use the Cheney defense: I never, never said that. And I don’t care if you have tape showing otherwise.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:26 pmSo we if listen to Bush we need to give up our freedom in order to preserve it? What a crock of s**t! Does he realize that we are smarter than him and his attempt at hypnosis falls on deaf ears. We ain’t gonna go for it, chief.
If Bushco had any brains behind it they would fight to maintain our freedoms so we could flaunt it to the world that despite 9/11 we didn’t let the terrorist take away our way of life. I would bet that Bush’s approval rating would be through the roof if he did that.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:33 pmhttp://www.epic.org/privacy/wiretap/hr2883.html
Scroll to Sec 314 “Technical Ammendments”
There is, at present, a 72 hour window in which the feds can do WHATEVER they wish WITHOUT A WARRANT before an application for such a warrant must be lodged with FISA.
This renders all arguments relating to the inconvenience of getting warrants when there are only ‘minutes to act’ or the ‘ticking bomb’ excuse. The arguments do not deserve to be heard.
Prior to 01 the feds had a 24 hour window. Please note that a 72 hour window is actually much more - DOJ can use procedural motions to delay an actual hearing on the warrant for at least another 24 hours.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:34 pmThe last time a president was caught spying on other americans without a warrant, the event was called watergate!
December 17th, 2005 at 8:36 pm“Last time I checked there professor, Iraq was not affixed to the lower half of our continent” - WorFEus
WorFeus - Bless your heart - just when I was starting to respect you a “smidgin” and dislike you less! I know related concepts(”will of the people” and “democracy”) are difficult considering downhill slide of English and Philosophy curriculum. You neglected to discuss the suspension of Habeus Corpus and Japanese internment camps - topics even progs might find on point
December 17th, 2005 at 8:41 pmthat despite 9/11 we didn’t let the terrorist take away our way of life
ahh would’nt that have been nice. I thought that was where we were going after 911. But it didn’t work out that way did it.
That ship has already sailed.
Oh well…
December 17th, 2005 at 8:44 pmChuckLA said it right.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:44 pmOk Aphrodite, the respect is returning.
Nice try.
You neglected to discuss the suspension of Habeus Corpus and Japanese internment camps - topics even progs might find on point
Comment by mighty aphrodite — December 17, 2005 @ 8:41 pm
Actually I did already address this, when I said this AINT WW2.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:46 pmThis little police occupation, where we are using our soldiers as bait to root out an insurgency, an insurgency that is populated by the very people we supposedly went there to help, this little police occupation has absolutely NOTHING to do with WW2, unless of course you’re looking inside of our shores, and the striking similarites between the rise of the little corporal, and the rise of the little Lt.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:48 pm#123 - POOr zoooomie - To think you thought you KNEW something important…. The average speed of the FISA court is one day. Know whence you….unless you are a naive andor ignorant and/or smug prog.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:49 pmWe lost 3000 people on 911.
We got 300,000 Million left.
I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but I know one of the answers is not to restrict the rights, privleges and freedoms, and turn national defense agencies against our own, under the supposed guise of keeping us safe.
No thanks, don’t try to sell it to me. I’m can honestly say I am more afraid of my own government, then I have ever been, or likely ever will be, of a terrorist.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:51 pmDOES ANYONE REALIZE HOW VULNERABLE WE ARE?
I’m sure I’m not the only one who realizes just how vulnerable our country is right now - but who’s discussing it?
The though occurred to me that if enough countries decided that they had had enough of our regime and banded together militarily we’d be in a world of hurt. We can’t even stop the insurgency in Iraq and are still monkeying around in Afghanistan. What would the result be if 20 or 30 countries decided to take us on in the Middle East? (let’s pray russia and china aren’t part of that group)
You could say that we’d kick all their butts, but could we? First off, the draft would go into effect immediately and they’d have to pull all resources from all over the world. Second, the economic reprocussions would devastate our economy and third, we’d have to pull all National Guard troops from the homeland leaving us even more vulnerable at home.
The point is that our President and his party/administration have left us in a most precarious position. Bush has done everything the terrorists hoped he would do. Not only has he fallen for every trap set for him by Bin Laden, but he’s done it ten fold better than could have been expected. We’re as polorized as a country can be, we walked right into Iraq and were embarrassed and now we find that W has betrayed our sacred constition without hesitation and we’re now spying on our own without legal merit and torturing people in secret prisons around the world. We’ve created more terrorists world wide than we could possibly kill in 20 years and had 300,000 troops in Iraq. We alienated the rest of the world with this f’d up war and that’s where he really did it to us.
I’ll stop rambling, just voicing my thoughts….
December 17th, 2005 at 8:54 pm“And the Iraqi insurgency are not terrorists.” - According to WorFEus
December 17th, 2005 at 8:55 pmWell, I guess they’re just “misunderstood” murderers.
Great points, but next time you may wanna turn off the all bold. Makes it hard to follow.
December 17th, 2005 at 8:56 pmsorry bout the bold…got to typing and forgot!
December 17th, 2005 at 8:57 pmWell, I guess they’re just “misunderstood†murderers.
Comment by mighty aphrodite —
So tell me Aphrodite, since you are in so truthful a mood tonight, tell me the truth.
What would you do, if the EU invaded our country to implement “regime change”
They are benevolant, have the best of intentions, and intend on leaving, once we elect a government from their “approved” list.
What would you do?
December 17th, 2005 at 8:58 pmTheme to Jeopardy playing.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:04 pm“And the Iraqi insurgency are not terrorists.†- According to WorFEus
Well, I guess they’re just “misunderstood†murderers.
Comment by mighty aphrodite ”
Ironic, because by your definition the british would have called David Ben Gurion a ‘misunderstood murderer/terrorist’ as well. I bet lots of arabs would agree with you…
December 17th, 2005 at 9:19 pm“#123 - POOr zoooomie - To think you thought you KNEW something important…. The average speed of the FISA court is one day. Know whence you….unless you are a naive andor ignorant and/or smug prog.
Comment by mighty aphrodite”
And yet the NSA has a 3 day window of ’spying’ they can do before FISA approval is required. So you just confirmed that there was no need to circumvent the constitution, and yet it was done 30 times. Thanks for PROVING that Bush is a traitor to his oath to the consitution and should be impeached. I agree with you MightyTranny, he doesn’t deserve to be president, just like you don’t deserve american citizenship.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:21 pmJeopardy music still playing
December 17th, 2005 at 9:23 pmworfeus,
That music will play a long time. Terrorists and murderous souls like mighty tranny can’t put themselves in the shoes of others. It’s part of her psychosis.
People who are like him/her and prone to violent thoughts and wishes rarely can sympathize with their victims. Her psychosis is in fact very similar to that of Osama. He ‘laughed’ about the 9/11 victims in a remarkably similar way to how mightyTranny and mizzWrong laughed about dying palestinians, and the other day she revelled in Tookie being killed. The fact that they can’t sympathize with the dead and dying, and that they revel in those deaths shows that they are psychotic and incapable of seeing the world in a normal way.
This is typical of pathological people like mightyTranny, and why they’re drawn to terrorism - just like she is.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:30 pmThem Quakers are a dangerous bunch and you got to keep a sharp eye on them peace activists old ladys with blue hair.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:35 pm~~~~~~~~~~
Come one, come all to the Mexican border. We got low paying jobs for you!
Worfeus says:
Yeah, that’s what the head-hackers like Zarqawi are doing, fighting for freedom! But don’t question liberals’ patriotism! And they support our troops! LOL
December 17th, 2005 at 9:35 pmIn the 1770’s we calld them patriots.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:38 pmWWallace tto hhis kkids.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:40 pm“SSee aalmost aany aaristocrat ccan ggrow uup tto bee KKing iin AAmerica.”
WALLACE SAID THAT WORFEUS SAID
you would do exactly what the Iraqi insurgency is doing today.
You’d fight for your freedom,…
wwallace,
If your gonna quote me then quote me. Don’t make up crap.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:49 pmwwallace is a terrorist stalker and head hacker who hates america and our troops :()
December 17th, 2005 at 9:49 pmwwallace is retarded enough to think zarqawi (a jordanian) is iraqi. LOL!!!!
December 17th, 2005 at 9:51 pmwwallace makes things up, because he ran out of his prescription of anti-psychotic medication that keeps him from hearing voices :()
December 17th, 2005 at 9:52 pmWhat I said was,
December 17th, 2005 at 9:52 pmWorfeus, I copied and pasted your exact words, why lie about soemething so easily checked right here? That’s just nuts.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:54 pmWorfeus claimed I made up his assertion that the al Qaeda terrorists in Iraq “fight for freedom”, but then he repeated his assertion in #153. Crazy.
December 17th, 2005 at 9:57 pmwwallace lies because he’s just nuts. LOL
December 17th, 2005 at 9:57 pmBut since you walked into it, I pose the same question to you, Sir William Wallace,
If the EU decides that “regime change†is critical to America and invades our shores to replace our government.
They are benevolant, and only here to help.
They will overthrow our government, and allow us to vote in a new government made up of our own people, as long as they are on the approved list, and then supposedly leave.
What would you do?
December 17th, 2005 at 9:57 pm
December 17th, 2005 at 9:58 pmwwallace made his assertions that all iraqis who fight are al qaeda, and then accused worfeus of making this same assertion.
wwallace lied because he hates the troops and wants them to die!
wwallace is just nuts!
December 17th, 2005 at 9:58 pmwwallace claimed zarqawi was an iraqi. wwallace lied :()
December 17th, 2005 at 9:59 pmwwallace stalks liberals because no one will date her :()
December 17th, 2005 at 10:00 pmThis administration is like watching a popular TV show of the late 40’s and early 50’s.
December 17th, 2005 at 10:08 pmHere we have the cast:
Howdy Dowdy played by GWB (the puppet)
Buffalo Bob played by Dickie boy (the puppet master)
Mr. Buster played by Rummy
Dilly Dally Played by Brownie (or countless others)
Princess SummerFallWinterSpring played by KindOfSleezey
Clarabell played by the Rover
Inspector Fadoozle played by Ashcroft
and, of course, Flub-a-Dub played by Joe LIEberman
December 17th, 2005 at 10:13 pm
FISA Court judges are on 24/7 call and will, in fact, authorize telephone warrants that last until further documentation is seen. These warrants are not difficult to get.
Of the 4 rejected in 2003 (the first 4 to EVER be rejected) three were withdrawn and the fourth was appealed and won.
Now, what do you think happened to the 3 that were withdrawn? I am guessing that Bush signed presidential authorizations giving legal cover to NSA officials to conduct operations that were legally suspect. 3 of his 3 dozen?
Comment by James — December 17, 2005 @ 5:37 pm
James I don’t think talking about FISA actually helps this. When you start talking about 3 dozen people it is hard to portray this as all Americans have been spied on. Take note that the only report that this occurred from t