Santorum Added As Speaker At Justice Sunday III
Santorum Added As Speaker At Justice Sunday III
With his popularity in Pennsylvania dwindling, Sen. Rick Santorum (R) recently made efforts to distance himself from the far religious right. In 2003, Santorum praised Dover School District, which made “intelligent design” a mandatory part of the curriculum for “attempting to teach the controversy of evolution.” But late last month, he withdrew “his affiliation with the Christian-rights law center that defended a school district’s policy mandating the teaching of ‘intelligent design.’” He called the Thomas More Law Center’s decision to defend Dover “a huge mistake.”
Apparently, Santorum now has to make amends for his transgression. He was just added to the program of Justice Sunday III, a notoriously offensive effort by right-wing religious leaders to rally support for President Bush’s judicial nominations.
If you’ll recall, a flier for the original Justice Sunday called any attempt to filibuster a judicial nominee an attack “against people of faith.” Santorum is back in his comfort zone.
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Religious zealots, reich wing conservatives, closed minded, ingnorant and not living in reality. Quite a profile for bushy’s base.
January 2nd, 2006 at 1:50 pmCasey is both pro-ife and anti-gay marriage. So what’s your beef with Rick – he works against the anti-Christian forces on the left and stops their radical agenda?
January 2nd, 2006 at 1:50 pmThomas Paine knew that governments weren’t worthy of Christianity.
January 2nd, 2006 at 1:51 pmIf the US is a cash cow with a thousand tits what a nice bunch of sucking leeches .More ,give me more .
January 2nd, 2006 at 1:58 pmHey I just noticed the pic included falwell and dobson. Now THERE’S adding credability to ones cause. They fit the profile mentioned above to a TEE!
January 2nd, 2006 at 1:59 pmJustice “Bloody” Sunday III – The Empire Strikes Back
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:01 pmThomas Paine knew that Christianity was not a worthy belief system for himself. He believed it false as he believed all other organized religions to be self serving fearmongers. His own religion existed within his mind alone and between himself and god.
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:04 pmWhat I see in this picture are 7 people I would absolutely not leave my kids with. These guys are gross. They look like Glamour Shot car salesmen. Disgusting. Those black ones should be ashamed.
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:07 pmmparker,
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:12 pmYou and I read Common Sense differently. My impression is Paine considered all religions wanting the same thing, and that governments are “necessary evils” of forced relationships unfit for propagation of religious ideas. I believe Paine was very frank with these thoughts.
Hello?
Do you know what site you are posting on or are you lost?
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:28 pmThe circuis is coming to town and the clowns are all wearing suits.
I love these events. I wonder if Dobson will be floated onto the stage by wires wearing those Victoria’s Secret strap on wings.
It’s kind of like the KKK. The best way to defeat these fools is to give them a microphone and a stage and let them tell you just what they think. After a little while it becomes pretty clear that they don’t.
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:31 pmCan we now do what the British did with these Fundamental wingnuts 250 years ago when they drove them out of England and sent them here? Aren’t there still some unoccupied islands in the South Pacific where we can ship them?
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:36 pmGary Ruppert is a euphemism for psychotic moron.
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:37 pmWhere’s Pat Robertson in the mix? Better invite him to the party or he’ll sic the wrath of his war-mongering God on them…
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:41 pmYeah and the Pope wears Prada.This is good for the evangelicals, get to know the other Christian religion. Mit Romney is next. Mormons, Catholics, Evangelical Christians, social conservatives, pro-lifers, big tent stuff. What’s their foreign policy agendi? At what point do any of these groups acknowledge their might be just a slight conflict of interest regarding their tax exempt status? Isn’t this as ugly as Bill Frist and his Palm Sunday legislation?
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:42 pmExcuse me for being ignorant, but isn’t Sunday supposed to be a day of rest for all good, upstanding Christians? How do these folks live with themselves?
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:44 pmIt’s not from “Common Sense” but “The Age of Reason” by Paine from which those thoughs are derived. What’s important is that Religion and Politics are mutually corrupting as is seen to some degree in the US. If your church doesn’t support George Bush then maybe the Church down the block will get financial support out of YOUR taxes. Or, as has happened in some churches, members have been sent packing for their political beliefs against the war or Bush policies.
The day god meets Bush someones getting a good ass kicking.
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:44 pmThis reminds me of people who have “God is my Co-Pilot” tags on their cars and wear WWJD tee-shirts. They think they can get a free pass to heaven by making other people think they are true christians just because they say so.
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:47 pmHey where is George Allen? Isn’t he the poster child for the social conservatives right now. If Sen. Santorum can get re-elected he can be George’s running mate in 08. Split the party away from Gulliani or McCain.What do the family folks think about immigration? How many times do you think Ralph Reed’s name will be mentioned?
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:53 pmI just love those knuckle-draggers. They are a scream.
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:56 pm“…it is the will of the Almighty that there should be a diversity of religious opinions among us. It affords a larger field for our Christian kindness.”
“…politics(as a religious body of men) is not your proper Walks; for however well it might appear to you, it is, nevertheless, a jumble of good and bad put unwisely together…both unnatural and unjust.”
-Paine, from Common Sense
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:56 pmThomas Paine said the bible was evil and that a true god doesn’t need books written by men. He said that people that say they have revelations (the evangelicals) are liars that say these things to give themselves power over everyone else. God doesn’t reveal himself to a man who goes out and tells everyone how they must live their lives…rather god speaks to each individual if at all.
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:57 pm#18 dumbstruck
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:57 pmAmen!
Would you buy a used car from any one of these?
January 2nd, 2006 at 2:59 pmThis reminds me of people who have “God is my Co-Pilot†tags on their cars and wear WWJD tee-shirts. They think they can get a free pass to heaven by making other people think they are true christians just because they say so.
Comment by dumbstruck — January 2, 2006 @ 2:47 pm
They also think it will get them out of a speeding ticket (with a bevy of children in tow, no doubt) and a permanent parking spot at the local Wal-Mart…
January 2nd, 2006 at 3:00 pmWell, while we’re quoting founding fathers, here is one to add to the list – from Thomas Jefferson…
“Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.”
January 2nd, 2006 at 3:06 pmPaine was like many Christians, including myself. It is based on a moral relationship between me and Jesus. The morality is rooted in trying with every action to not be a hypocrite. And individuals communicate with Jesus(and God)through their hearts, and privately. I will add that Paul was a liar and invented evangelism, but many disagree.
January 2nd, 2006 at 3:07 pmChristianity is spread through passive behavior.
How do isolated people come to know Jesus? an evangelist will ask. And they ask because they underestimate the will of God and they overestimate their role in Godly affairs.
If I were , I think I’d avoid Dover. After all, Pat Robertson proclaims that god was voted out of that county. Watch out!
January 2nd, 2006 at 3:11 pmPrinted out,enlarged,hung up on dart board,now throwing darts.
January 2nd, 2006 at 3:18 pmThis reminds me of people who have “God is my Co-Pilot†tags on their cars and wear WWJD tee-shirts. They think they can get a free pass to heaven by making other people think they are true christians just because they say so.
Comment by dumbstruck — January 2, 2006 @ 2:47 pm
They also think it will get them out of a speeding ticket (with a bevy of children in tow, no doubt) and a permanent parking spot at the local Wal-Mart…
Comment by unbelievable — January 2, 2006 @ 3:00 pm
God was my co-pilot but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him.
January 2nd, 2006 at 3:18 pmThe Faith of our Founding Fathers, by Dean Worbois
http://www.postfun.com/pfp/worbois.html
January 2nd, 2006 at 3:23 pmGod was my co-pilot but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him.
Comment by KillCon2006 — January 2, 2006 @ 3:18 pm
All I can say in response to this (besides laughing) is have fun – that comment will be even larger troll bait than me saying that I’m an Atheist. :)
January 2nd, 2006 at 3:25 pmThese founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.
And isn’t it incredibly, and horribly, ironical that we’ve now become the Christian Crazies of the world… while Europe is welcoming more and more American citizens who are returning to the ‘Old World’ to find religious, as well as other civic tolerances…
If I believed in such things KillCon, I would believe Jefferson, Paine, Adams, Franklin, Madison et al were turning in their graves over the theocratic take over of our country. Good thing I don’t believe in such things :)
January 2nd, 2006 at 3:36 pmGod is my co-pilot too. I was pulled over for DWI and he took the wheel and convinced the cop he was driving. Said it was one of my “footprints in the sands” moments when he was carrying me.
I am forever grateful to God for that one.
-GSD
January 2nd, 2006 at 3:38 pmThese idiots never cease to amaze me. Imagine spending you entire life waiting, like a child at christmas with nose pressed against a window waiting for Santa, for their “savior” to take them up to heaven. ROFLMAO!!!
Imagine their disappointment when they die and, THEY’RE DEAD! Another life wasted in the name of religion.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
January 2nd, 2006 at 3:59 pmWhy vote against Santorum:
Terri Schiavo’s parents law,didn’t work,was unconstitutional,championed by RS;
Privatizing the Weather Bureau by eliminating free weather reports and making them go through AccuWeather;
Social Security story-telling that is and was wrong,wrong,wrong.
The only caveat to voting him out is where he might end up next, can you see Cheney resigning at the end of 06?
January 2nd, 2006 at 4:29 pmTJM, Santorum as VP, too rough on the party and there is still a bunch of Texans around, I’d have to go with Phil Graham, just like Gerald Ford the GOP would be restrained by the alternative to suggest impeachment, especially to the Commander in Chief, during a written honey to do list declaration of war. Where is Stanley Kubrick when you need him. “You know what Clemenseau said about War Mandrake?”
January 2nd, 2006 at 4:38 pm#18 – “This reminds me of people who have “God is my Co-Pilot†tags on their cars and wear WWJD tee-shirts. They think they can get a free pass to heaven by making other people think they are true christians just because they say so.” Comment by dumbstruck
January 2nd, 2006 at 4:41 pm***** I also get a hearty laugh from people who view themselves as moral icons – you know the type – the ones who wail and moan about poor, misunderstood, downtrodden murderers and then whip into the abortion clinic when their birth control fails(if they even bothered in the first place). What would Buddha do???
#18 – “This reminds me of people who have “God is my Co-Pilot†tags on their cars and wear WWJD tee-shirts. They think they can get a free pass to heaven by making other people think they are true christians just because they say so.” Comment by dumbstruck
January 2nd, 2006 at 4:42 pm***** I also get a hearty laugh from people who view themselves as moral icons – you know the type – the ones who wail and moan about poor, misunderstood, downtrodden murderers and then whip into the abortion clinic when their birth control fails(if they even bothered in the first place). What would Buddha do???
#18 – “This reminds me of people who have “God is my Co-Pilot†tags on their cars and wear WWJD tee-shirts. They think they can get a free pass to heaven by making other people think they are true christians just because they say so.” Comment by dumbstruck
January 2nd, 2006 at 4:42 pm***** I also get a hearty laugh from people who view themselves as moral icons – you know the type – the ones who wail and moan about poor, misunderstood, downtrodden murderers and then whip into the abortion clinic when their birth control fails(if they even bothered in the first place). What would Buddha do???
Well all the founders still had a strong sense of the spiritual, or spiritual component in their lives. They just understood that spirituality and religion were mutually exclusive.
January 2nd, 2006 at 4:46 pmSpeaking of Justice… perhaps they ought to invite Judge Luttig, Jose Padilla and the WaPo editorial board as well.
January 2nd, 2006 at 4:46 pmGod is whatever he/she means to you in your life.
Whatever floats your boat. In the USA all boats are welcome. Just don’t start crasing your big ass boat into my Athiest dingy.
Now I have to paddle to Dover which is no longer zoned for the big G.
January 2nd, 2006 at 4:47 pmSUGGESTION TO ALL POSTERS WHEN YOU LOAD YOUR TRIPE, JUST ONCE, JUST ONCE,
January 2nd, 2006 at 4:51 pmtap post-i agree, THEN GO BACK ONE PAGE, RETURN TO TP HIT REFRESH IT WILL BE THERE,. NOT SURE OPEN ANOTHER WINDOW AND CHECK, THANKS.
Speaking of judges. Did we all see the latest from our buddy Chief Justice John Roberts?
CNN
January 2, 2006
Roberts urges pay raises for judges
Low salaries? Are you fvcking kidding me?
This is nothing but giving raises to rich people, while minimum wage is kept at $5.15 again.
January 2nd, 2006 at 5:04 pmI really want to thank Killcon 2006 for the post. A lengthy but appropriate post with a goldmine of truth about the founding father’s relationship with religion and their wise counsel to “firewall” protect our government from the virus of religion and priests.
The stench of hypocracy from evangelicals and their political wingnut republicans is acting like smelling salts on the masses reviving an unconscious person. A great step in the right direction for our nation and world would be the appropriate discreditation of Bush/Cheney etal and their removal from the leadership of our nation.
We all need in any possible degree to talk with our fellow citizens and continue to state clearly that this religious fascist tyranny needs to end. Clarity of reality is important because many evangelicals seem to crave some heroin-like stupor they call “the rapture” that they seem to think they’ve earned by being good little automatons.
As for Gus the loving obgyn needing the relationship with Jesus to prevent his becoming a hypocrite, it becomes an enabling continuation of the same old exploitation of others by adding weight to his philosophical needs by “name dropping” a more well known moralist. Christian apologists like Gus enable the Falwells, Dobsons, and Robertsons by validating their corrupt tenets. If Gus needs a moral compass to avoid becoming a hypocrite then he could use something as understandable as the “Golden Rule,” the “Silver Rule” and be mindful of the Law of Karma and he would be way ahead of any Christian and wouldn’t continue to enable their perverse crimes against human and nature.
January 2nd, 2006 at 5:11 pmJust think about it. He’s telling the other “judges” to rule in favor of bushy about the illegal wiretaps and we’ll push for a raise for everyone.
Is this really fooling ANYONE? Other than the reich wingers I mean.
January 2nd, 2006 at 5:13 pmI have built it. Will you come?
http://www.boycott-republicans.com
January 2nd, 2006 at 5:16 pmUn F**KING Believable, Spudge….
And this after our elected officials voted themselves a pay raise?
And the current disgrace of a budget bill that got thru’ the Senate…?
When are we going to wake up from this horrible nightmare?
January 2nd, 2006 at 5:19 pmI soooooo feel like screaming right now. But of course all that’ll accomplish is scaring my beagles…..
I have built it. Will you come?
http://www.boycott-republicans.com
Comment by Ben Franklin
January 2nd, 2006 at 5:28 pmEveryone tell Admin that this bozo needs to pony up to advertise on this site or GO!
Copy & Paste, please.
Don’t foget this one:
CNN
January 2, 2006
Business getting new allies on high court
Just what we needed. Let’s give more power to the corporations and take away more individual rights.
Get ready for the 16 hour work day and don’t forget holidays at work with only straight pay.
Don’t forget that the EPA standards will be lowered for these companies, so they can continue to ruin this great nations natural resouces.
January 2nd, 2006 at 5:45 pmSantorum is a good bottom line for the Dems next election. If he can’t be beaten in Pensylvania, then things look very very dim indeed.
I don’t think Justice Sunday’s going to do much for Santorum politically, and in fact this shows far less desperation than when he suddenly ditched his principals on ID the other day. Nobody really doubts his wingnuttery is sincere. This is a man obsessed with visions of man-on-you name it, and only his fervent religious belief is keeping his behaviour in line. I mean, really, this what he says.
January 2nd, 2006 at 6:01 pmIck.
January 2nd, 2006 at 6:26 pmSantorum is toast in 2006. Good riddance to bad rubbish!
He is the biggest hypocrite alive in the U.S. congress (DeLay is off the charts and Frist is a close second). In addition, he is so dumb that he cannot even effect his mercenary turncoating with a modicum of finesse.
Now if we could also get rid of Bush and Cheney…
January 2nd, 2006 at 7:14 pmSantorum talks from both sides of his mouth. He is looking for survival, but he is dead in the water. The Congress will be better without him.
January 2nd, 2006 at 7:37 pmI have family in PA. Public opinion of Santorum has declined dramatically.
PA voted blue in the Prez election and from what I hear, they will vote blue in the Senate race.
Good.
January 2nd, 2006 at 8:59 pmJust Google Christian Nation Myth
I like that hand up my butt!
January 2nd, 2006 at 9:03 pmDJ Allyn’s Quote of the Day
“It is contended by many that ours is a Christian government, founded upon the Bible, and that all who look upon the book as false or foolish are destroying the foundation of our country. The truth is, our government is not founded upon the rights of gods, but upon the rights of men. Our Constitution was framed, not to declare and uphold the deity of Christ, but the sacredness of humanity. Ours is the first government made by the people and for the people. It is the only nation with which the gods have had nothing to do. And yet there are some judges dishonest and cowardly enough to solemnly decide that this is a Christian country, and that our free institutions are based upon the infamous laws of Jehovah.â€
– Robert Green Ingersoll, Individuality (1873)
(Found at Stupid Evil Bastard)
• • •
RS Janes’ Adjunct to DJ’s Quote of the Day
“If Jesus Christ were to come today, people would not even crucify him. They would ask him to dinner…hear what he had to say, and make fun of it.â€
– Thomas Carlyle
“Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction.â€
– Blaise Pascal
“No man is a Christian who cheats his fellows, perverts the truth, or speaks of a ‘clean bomb,’ yet he will be the first to make public his faith in God.â€
– Marya Mannes in 1956.
“Going to church doesn’t make you a Christian anymore than going to the garage makes you a car.â€
– Laurence J. Peter
“Eternal pain and damnation await those who question the unconditional love of God!â€
– Bill Hicks
Gary’s qoute of the day…
I like that hand up my butt!
January 2nd, 2006 at 9:11 pmWhat’s with the triple posts from the trolls?
January 2nd, 2006 at 10:03 pmThis is too funny: The senator is a supplicant. ha, ha, ha….
January 2nd, 2006 at 10:26 pmI still haven’t recovered from Justice Sunday II:
January 3rd, 2006 at 12:31 amRegarding SpudgeBoy’s post re: Roberts’ outlandish pay-raise claim, I’d like to take just a moment and relate one of Roy Moore’s even more outlandish moments as the Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court. Some of you may be aware of Alabama’s rather shoddy fiscal standing. Due to the State’s incredibly absurd tax laws (i.e., food for baby people is taxed, while food for baby chicks and rabbits can be completely non-taxable, and, even more absurd, you begin paying state taxes on your first $50–no, there’s no missing zero in that figure–while the personal exemption on your tax return is a mere $1500 for a single person and there’s a maximum $2000 additional deduction which is the *lesser* of a “20% or $2000″ choice) and State earmarking of funds (the highest level in the entire country–this simply means that certain revenue is reserved for specific needs and cannot be swapped around where really needed), the State has faced many years of proration in services (cutting the number of employees in various areas or eliminating pay raises aside from “step increases”). Now, all this wouldn’t be incredibly harsh as the State has been dealing with this tax situation for a very long time and has, for the most part, managed to squeak by every year. Anyway, how does Moore fit into this? Well, most are well-aware of his Ten Commandments Rock and the notoriety involved with that, but while the man was our Chief Justice, he actually fought a measure which would have prevented a pay raise for the State’s judges from being continued. The backstory was that the State had planned to raise the pay for all State judges (nothing to do with Federal-level judges) over a three-year period which would keep the State’s judges among the highest paid judges in the ENTIRE US. Roy wouldn’t consider eliminating any of the three yearly pay increases even though as Chief Justice it was well within his power to go to the Legislature and request the raises being set aside. What made this so incredibly unconscionable was the fact that the State actually needed new judges to handle the increasing loads (part of Moore’s “reasoning” for the pay raises was the current judges had sooooo many more cases to handle) and the State had frozen both hiring and pay raises for the Court Clerks’ offices (the regular people who actually deal with all the day-to-day functions of the Courts), and because of Moore’s unmitigated greed, the Courts became even more backed up as there were not enough judges to handle the increased case loads and the clerks’ offices had fewer people to deal with all the silly mundane details such as keeping track of mandated payments to the courts and notifying people of court dates and changes. (Of course, all this came during the time when Roy was forcing the State to pay the fines for *his* placing of the Ten Commandments Rock in the State Judiciary Building. All Roy would do was to press for more “tort reform” to reduce the number of “frivolous” cases.)
January 3rd, 2006 at 4:54 amI’m surprisedthat there is such a thing as a Black right winger.
January 3rd, 2006 at 6:03 ammost of these so called god fearing christians are just masquerading,they need to wear masks to hide their true purpose and intent.just take a look at all the pedophile priests in the catholic church,they get caught they get moved to a different church,not even a slap on the wrist.they are no different than the individual that can only feel good about himself when he is degrading and humiliating another.organized religion will be our ultimate downfall.it is time to bring these folks back to reality before its too late,but i’m afraid it already is.
January 3rd, 2006 at 9:15 amMost of these so called god fearing christians are just masquerading,they need to wear masks to hide their true purpose and intent.just take a look at all the pedophile priests in the catholic church,they get caught they get moved to a different church,not even a slap on the wrist.they are no different than the individual that can only feel good about himself when he is degrading and humiliating another.
So … the proof that Christians are masquerading is the presence of morally bankrupt priests? Have you considered that perhaps the reason these losers became priests was due to the unmitigated access to children that position affords?
Do a little research … you’ll find that “pedophiles” are most often found in these types of “situations” … they’re teachers, scout masters, youth leaders, priests, camp counselors, etc. Predators create these opportunities. Under your logic … we should say “education” is bad because of the large number of pedophile teachers (which for some reason has been mostly women lately).
I gather you 1) are not a christian and 2) don’t know any beyond the “pedophile” variety (if not, why group an entire population in the manner you did) … not all “Christians” are masquerading and, most of them, are very upfront (in fact, perhaps too upfront) with their intent …
Your “thesis” is obstuse and your “proof” is worse …
January 3rd, 2006 at 10:24 amMost of these so called god fearing christians are just masquerading,they need to wear masks to hide their true purpose and intent.just take a look at all the pedophile priests in the catholic church,they get caught they get moved to a different church,not even a slap on the wrist.they are no different than the individual that can only feel good about himself when he is degrading and humiliating another.
So … the proof that Christians are masquerading is the presence of morally bankrupt priests? Have you considered that perhaps the reason these losers became priests was due to the unmitigated access to children that position affords?
Do a little research … you’ll find that “pedophiles” are most often found in these types of “situations” … they’re teachers, scout masters, youth leaders, priests, camp counselors, etc. Predators create these opportunities. Under your logic … we should say “education” is bad because of the large number of pedophile teachers (which for some reason has been mostly women lately).
I gather you 1) are not a christian and 2) don’t know any beyond the “pedophile” variety (if not, why group an entire population in the manner you did) … not all “Christians” are masquerading and, most of them, are very upfront (in fact, perhaps too upfront) with their intent …
Your “thesis” is obstuse and your “proof” is worse …
January 3rd, 2006 at 10:24 amGiacomo,
There wasn’t anything posted to the Cheney forum since December 23rd… not sure where your last week’s stuff resides. I give up looking for it.
I guess for me it comes down to this – if saying “The Devil made me do” is an acceptable alibi in your faith, then it clearly does not promote responsibility for ones self. In fact, it does just the opposite.
Do a little research … you’ll find that “pedophiles†are most often found in these types of “situations†… they’re teachers, scout masters, youth leaders, priests, camp counselors, etc. Predators create these opportunities. Under your logic … we should say “education†is bad because of the large number of pedophile teachers (which for some reason has been mostly women lately).
On a very small basis, there are some who are drawn to positions of authority for the wrong reasons… except that teachers and camp councilors aren’t ‘called’ to their professions. Priest are supposedly hand picked by God….
January 3rd, 2006 at 10:32 amI gather you 1) are not a christian and 2) don’t know any beyond the “pedophile†variety (if not, why group an entire population in the manner you did) … not all “Christians†are masquerading and, most of them, are very upfront (in fact, perhaps too upfront) with their intent …
Giacomo, and you are not a Psychologist. My best friend since college is. Pedophiles are not ‘evil’ people. They are former molested children. They are taught this by the adult who abuses them. And unfortunately, it is not a cycle that we are doing anything constructive to break. Putting them in jail does not help. We need to get the victims councilling when they are abused – but because of religion that blames this on the Devil, we do not value therapy enough to fund it. We no longer believe the earth is falt, we should also stop believing that ‘evil’ makes humans do anything, and start finding the appropriate assistance to those who need it.
January 3rd, 2006 at 10:36 ammost of these so called god fearing christians are just masquerading,they need to wear masks to hide their true purpose and intent.just take a look at all the pedophile priests in the catholic church,they get caught they get moved to a different church,not even a slap on the wrist.they are no different than the individual that can only feel good about himself when he is degrading and humiliating another.organized religion will be our ultimate downfall.it is time to bring these folks back to reality before its too late,but i’m afraid it already is.
Comment by MATTHEW — January 3, 2006 @ 9:15 am
Matthew, Giacomo lives in a world taht he wishes existed rather than the one that does. I have had several converstions with him about religion and he pretty much makes stuff up as he goes along to fit his defense. He’s not a bad guy, just brainwashed by the right-wing zealots who want to blame everything on teh Devil and accept no accountability for their inability to live up to their unrealistic and dangerous standards for human behavior.
They seem to exist on the premise that people should be perfect and then go about buring, crucifying and stoning anyone who isn’t. But since they themselves are not, they have to spin, hide and throw smoke and mirrors to cover it up so they won’t be condemned themselves.
And they wonder why Atheism in Industrial nations (where people don’t have to convert for food) is on the rise…
January 3rd, 2006 at 10:42 amPedophiles are not ‘evil’ people. They are former molested children. They are taught this by the adult who abuses them. And unfortunately, it is not a cycle that we are doing anything constructive to break. Putting them in jail does not help. We need to get the victims councilling when they are abused – but because of religion that blames this on the Devil, we do not value therapy enough to fund it.
Some are formerly abused … others not. The cycle of the pedophile is one of the few “illnesses” that psychologists will tell you is impossible to cure … they recidivate at a rate that is staggering when compared to other crimes. They go for decades without being caught.
My religion isn’t so simple as to “blame on the devil” the urges that pedophiles succomb to … jail doesn’t help the pedophile, but does protect the civilian population. I agree that these “people” need therapy first and foremost (most of them can never be trusted again around children unfortunately).
January 3rd, 2006 at 10:57 amMatthew, Giacomo lives in a world taht he wishes existed rather than the one that does. I have had several converstions with him about religion and he pretty much makes stuff up as he goes along to fit his defense.
I thought you “knew” me better than that … I’m not making anything up any more than you are.
He’s not a bad guy, just brainwashed by the right-wing zealots who want to blame everything on teh Devil and accept no accountability for their inability to live up to their unrealistic and dangerous standards for human behavior.
Review my previous posts (before I even read this comment here) … I’m not so simple to blame “the devil” for anything. You’re compartmentalizing your opinion or experience with “Christians” and projecting those “facts” upon me … thus far, you’re uninformed about my brand of faith and keep reducing it to over zealous legalism.
They seem to exist on the premise that people should be perfect and then go about buring, crucifying and stoning anyone who isn’t. But since they themselves are not, they have to spin, hide and throw smoke and mirrors to cover it up so they won’t be condemned themselves.
1) No one is, or will, be perfect (except for you know Who).
2) Why would I advocate burning or stoning anyone?
3) I am well aware of the presence of imperfection (sin) in my life
4) I condemn no one for that is not my role (nor will it ever be)
5) I do not fear condemnation for my behavior (although I always strive to emulate Christ as best, albeit feebly, as I can).
I know you have experience with Christianity and other Christians but I find you woefully uninformed (or perhaps inexperienced with) a Christian who isn’t legalistic and condemning … you’re putting me in a little box and dismissing me. Feel free to challenge me on anything you want, but, today at least, you’re branding me as something I’m not.
January 3rd, 2006 at 11:06 amI went to high school with Rick. He is a homosexual. He and a friend of mine used to go downtown to gay bars. I know of several encounters he had with a black homosexual that used to frequent the bars and sell crack.
January 3rd, 2006 at 1:18 pmMore signs of desperation from Santorum. He tried to tack to the middle and the extremists called him on it. Getting back in bed with them isn’t going to help his campaign, he’s dead in the water.
January 3rd, 2006 at 1:20 pm“Excuse me for being ignorant, but isn’t Sunday supposed to be a day of rest for all good, upstanding Christians? How do these folks live with themselves?”
This is very simple, they can sleep at night because they are not really Christians. They are Satanists and have deceived their flocks into thinking they are worshiping Christ.
January 3rd, 2006 at 1:37 pmIt’s time candidates and members of Congress take the Religious Right at their word. They want to overthrough our government. My campaign is fighting these bigots with boots on the ground. see my new book
Stacey Tallitsch
Democrat for Congress
Louisiana First District
http://www.lafirst.org
Author of the “Bare Naked Truth: on the Religious Rightâ€
January 3rd, 2006 at 2:11 pmhttp://www.barenakedtruth.net
Wow … what a “progressive” photo … I guess the fact that Christians are a majority in the US means that they can’t be discriminated against.
Does anyone here think Stacey would get away with (or would even have the balls to create) a similar photo using a Muslim holy symbol and a naked female?
January 3rd, 2006 at 2:41 pmReview my previous posts (before I even read this comment here) … I’m not so simple to blame “the devil†for anything. You’re compartmentalizing your opinion or experience with “Christians†and projecting those “facts†upon me … thus far, you’re uninformed about my brand of faith and keep reducing it to over zealous legalism.
Then Giacomo, you have your own religion with different values. That’s fine, but define it. I’ve asked before and you haven’t.
Christianity is simply. It does believe in good versus evil. If you don’t, then perhaps you’ve invented another form of it – or something else entirely. But you can’t proclaim to be a Christian when you pick and choose which of their tennents to follow and which to ignore.
My ‘experience’ has ranged from Southern Baptist to Methodist to Unitarian to Catholic to non-denominational to Lutheran (My mom thought it would be a good idea to teach us religious tolerance by taking us to different churches). They have a different take on what you consider Christianity to be. You’re entitled to your own variety, but you should be implicit about that before you defend generic Christianity, which is all about Good v. Evil.
January 3rd, 2006 at 3:42 pmI thought you “knew†me better than that … I’m not making anything up any more than you are.
I’m sorry Giacomo, but the things you state as facts are terribly skewed to the right and not independent or cross referenced. Maybe you personally don’t make it up, but you do employ strategies of using not-so credible information to validate your point.
I just think you haven’t considered the other side at all, and that makes you appear very biased and not terribly convincing. I don’t think that makes you a bad guy, but I think it does make it difficult to have conversations because you like define stuff as you go along. That was all I was telling him.
Don’t take it personally, it wasn’t meant to be an attack. In this format we aren’t really that human to one another anyway… more about battling beliefs and ideas than one another.
January 3rd, 2006 at 3:46 pm1) No one is, or will, be perfect (except for you know Who).
2) Why would I advocate burning or stoning anyone?
3) I am well aware of the presence of imperfection (sin) in my life
4) I condemn no one for that is not my role (nor will it ever be)
5) I do not fear condemnation for my behavior (although I always strive to emulate Christ as best, albeit feebly, as I can).
I know you have experience with Christianity and other Christians but I find you woefully uninformed (or perhaps inexperienced with) a Christian who isn’t legalistic and condemning … you’re putting me in a little box and dismissing me. Feel free to challenge me on anything you want, but, today at least, you’re branding me as something I’m not.
Comment by Giacomo — January 3, 2006 @ 11:06 am
If you believe what you say, then you are not a Christian. You keep trying to relate this to some bad experience I had. No bad experiences. I’m not angry. I keep telling you, I read the Bible. There’s a lot of hate in it and very little about something I value immensely – self-appreciation. People who value themselves value others. Christianity, per the Bible, says that you should hate yourself or you are egotistical and boastful. The book was written by a bunch of Flat-Earthers living in the desert, not scholars and psychologists and free thinkers.
The Bible represents Christianity Giacomo. It’s what I use to determine what Christianity is. If you don’t subscribe to it, perhaps you’re just a Deist or ‘Spiritual but not Religious’, or something else along those lines. But Christianity is pretty clear about what it is – it has a book that spells it all out.
January 3rd, 2006 at 3:52 pmWow … what a “progressive†photo … I guess the fact that Christians are a majority in the US means that they can’t be discriminated against. Does anyone here think Stacey would get away with (or would even have the balls to create) a similar photo using a Muslim holy symbol and a naked female?
Actually if Muslims (or any other religious group) ran this country the way that the fundamentalist Christians do I *know* you’d see this kind of protest art– which is exactly what it is.
If the theocratic right weren’t into using their religion as a weapon against everyone then you wouldn’t see images such as this. It’s not discrimination, it’s speech against those who are in a position of power, people who use their religion to define their power as God-granted and God-given, people who use their religious views to judge others. You know, people like President Bush who *believes* that God chose him to be president.
January 3rd, 2006 at 4:32 pmomg. I’m going to pray for a bomb to be planted in the auditorium. If it went off, it’d raise the IQ of that part of the nation by at least 10 points!
January 3rd, 2006 at 5:19 pm1) Fundamentalist Christians are idiots – they’ve made Jesus the new god, and they’ve made god irrelevant.
2) Jesus was an ordinary human like the rest of us. At no point in any scripture does Jesus say “worship me” or “I am god” or “start a religion based on my teachings”. It’s clear that Jesus wanted nothing of the sort.
3) Jesus was Arimaic. In that culture, to be betrothed was to be known “as a virgin”. This is exactly the point Mary and Joseph were at when they conceived Jesus. In fact, most children born in Arimathea at the time were considered “virgin” births because that was the custom of those people. It was a polite way of saying, “oops, we’re pregnant out of wedlock,” because these betrothals were arranged and the typical result (or sign of success, if you will) was pregnancy. (Check out the Dead Sea Scrolls, it’s all in there, folks)
4) Joseph was Jesus’ father. What kind of sap was Joseph if one day he came home and Mary said, “welcome home honey- guess what? I’m pregnant!” and then, “oh, by the way, it’s not yours — it’s actually god’s!” Personally, if Joseph stood for that, especially in that day and age, I’d be shocked. Any other man at the time would have booted his wife right out the tent for cheating on him and lying about it. So if you’re trying to tell me Joseph just said, “great, honey!” without any issue whatsoever, especially since in Arimathea that would have been a repudiation of their betrothal, you’re denying human nature. Joseph would’ve found himself a new woman, period.
5) This isn’t to take away from any of the great lessons that Jesus taught… it’s just to inject some perspective into an otherwise nonsensical religious edict. The Dead Sea Scrolls could be scripture like anything else in the bible, but the truths contained therein are considered too dangerous for christianity.
Here’s a great excerpt from a sermon by the Rev. Dr. Eugene Clifford McAfee:
the rest can be found here
Our dependence on religion is the last great hurdle for humankind to overcome. How many wars have been fought for religion, and how many more will be fought?
January 3rd, 2006 at 6:27 pmOK, no coffee for me yet. All you biblical fact-checkers out there, hold your judgements… I drowsily included a factual error in post #82-
Please replace “Arimaic” or “Arimathea” with “Essene” in my above post. Joseph (the father and carpenter), Joseph of Arimathea (supposedly Jesus’ uncle)… who’s checking? I do not claim to be a theologian, though I have studied these matters quite robustly.
To clarify, from Dr Barbara Thiering, a theologian, who for decades was involved in the study of the Dead Sea Scrolls and a scholar of the Gospels, says this in her book ‘Jesus the Man’:
She continues to explain that among the Essenes, a group of very religious people, sex was strictly for procreation and the ritual was a long drawn one at that. Betrothal of the couple lasted over years followed by the ‘first wedding’ whereafter cohabitation was allowed and then the ‘final’ wedding when the woman was confirmed three months pregnant. Mary however, fell pregnant during the period of betrothal and before the first wedding — when she was known to the Essenes “as a virgin”.
According to Thiering, the holy family including Joseph the carpenter belonged to this group. “Jesus was the leader of a radical faction of Essene priests. He was not of virgin birth,†she says. Furthermore the bible mentions Joseph the carpenter, a number of times as the father of Jesus, as in Matthew 1-18 etc.
Sorry about the confusion.
January 3rd, 2006 at 7:00 pmSometimes one must rely on trusting strangers to help transmit messages to the attention of those who reign over the dominant broadcast mediums.
One little letter of grievance might be discarded, but many of the same concern even Caesar. One single posting on an independent media message board might be overlooked, but if it has the power to draw many affirmations, appendages and links, it might concern even President Bush.
We have seen evidence of secret service snooping around Indy Media Centers before. They come in with little or no apparent reason but legal entitlement. We see this more as a calculated plan to instill fear in those who might otherwise instill fear in the powers that be. If the CIA were able to stamp out the inception of independent media, they would have done so in a New York second; nevertheless they want us to believe that they have the manpower and key word sequences programmed to spy on all dissidents.
In the quest for justice, people seek technologies to collectively forward petitions and referenda, while battling those few people who have no desire to appease those who seek attention in the court that counts most – mainstream broadcast media.
When we place our grievances in order of priority, we immediately recognize the one grievance we share in common – not getting attention where it counts most. Collectively, this one petition to the government for a redress of grievance will NOT be subjected to backroom sweet-talkers who would persuade our elected representatives to find a lid for it.
Elected officials will either be seen as evasive, dishonest and self-serving, or they will be commended for being open and honest and willing to address these issues head-on, but not only after they are cast into the realm of mainstream broadcast media.
Let us choose leaders who will escort this grievance above all forces of adversity and suppression, and bring it clearly into the light of the mainstream media world, where all other grievances of majorities and minorities may be considered thereby.
Come let us reason together through our mediums, and let us not deny the anger, aggression, bloodshed and misery rendered to that ancient goddess of suppression and confusion which prophecy students call spiritual Babylon. Blame that bitch for spawning psychotic terrorism!
Those in power, who truly care about security and justice for all, would not exercise the violence of suppression, but provide a safe place where fundamentalist attention-seekers can have all the attention they want. We have nothing to fear but the fear of letting would-be terrorists attempt to justify their ‘divinely ordained’ reasons for blowing up innocent people. When true diplomats start sharing the microphone with the disgruntled, the disgruntled will begin to diminish – and so will the need to build walls.
The only place to deal a deadly blow to fundamentalist tendencies before they ripen is in the media battlefield. Only here do we possess the collective intelligence to disrobe the sorcerers of fundamentalism and suicide-terrorism in the presence of those who are vulnerable to their deceptions. The only adversity we would face is the fear of those who realize that this measure would also bring judgment upon less obvious sorceries. Will Howard Stern say something about the fears of completely open media, when his satellite radio program kicks off?
It seems inconceivable that a suicide bomber could fearlessly entrust his departure to a promised place that gives its blessings to those who enter in through bloodshed – he or she would have to be greatly deceived and confused. (Again, it is the collective responsibility of media to enlighten ensnared minds.) It is more likely that so-called zealots who are recruited to carry out suicide bombings are given only two diabolical choices; they can blow themselves up and earn money for the families they leave behind, or they can spare their own lives and witness the murder of their families.
Fundamental Concerns:
Iranian Shiites have infiltrated Iraq to exploit their democratic elections, in the same way that right wing American leaders and their Council for National Policy are trying to infiltrate Canada through the Conservative Party.
With their war on drugs, and their war on the LGBT community, and their war on women’s rights and worker’s rights and many other facets of liberty – not to mention their apocalyptic, waiting for God, forget about the environment attitude – it would be safe to call all theocratic activists fundamentalists. As the wise teachers know, it has always proven impossible to enforce theocracy without the blood of dissenters and scapegoats.
As Election Day nears, it is important for Canadians to know what they definitely DO NOT want. The mudslinging that transpires during the heated race for Ottawa will not divide the agenda of the many Canadians who are opposed to Harper’s theocratic leanings.
Frankly, I wish Mr. Martin would reach out to the NDP for the purpose of sparing our democracy the threat of regressive Conservative theology. Furthermore, with Jack Layton’s stance on accountability and his endorsement by the president of the BC Marijuana Party, a Liberal call to accountability seeks to encompass far more than a Conservative call.
Conservatives are inherently poised to enforce prohibition, through a vote of rich young craftspeople and stuffy old people with stuffy old flat-earth pseudo-scientific antisocial values. Also by their spoon-fed religious biases, they would determine what is not suitable for publication, circumvent the voices of so-called sinners and blasphemers, and push society back into dark times – definitely not the key to the golden age.
Will we sacrifice our Canadian freedoms for the sake of joining the Conservatives in punishing Paul Martin for some incident that has much less bearing on our civil liberties than a Conservative leader who panders to the likes of the American religious conservative Council for National Policy? Because I give my fellow Canadians more credit than Harper does, I suspect the answer will be NO.
A Message for Bigots:
“Last Halloween, I saw four boys in their late teens sitting in a restaurant with their faces painted dark and wearing badly designed turbans. Not to mention the tacky floral print towels they used, they were apparently oblivious to how foolish, ignorant and irresponsible they looked. Although I would have been amused if a gang of like-minded individuals jumped them, but mercifully, I would have been more impressed if a group of decent citizens confronted them with a dose of diplomatic sensitivity.
“The only thing my children will do with bigotry is educate those who lack the intelligence and understanding to overcome it, and make sure that bigots who create scapegoats lose their influence on dividing and conquering society.
“Genuine spiritual liberators have long been aware that Authorized religious information often replaces socially progressive and liberating truths with empty prayers, useless customs, obligatory denouncements, and fear of eternal separation. Dormant idolatress religion even covers up what science and spiritual progress uncover, but Her priests use these discoveries to work scriptural sorcery against those who would proselytize Her adherents and undermine Her authoritative stronghold.
“The bigotry of spiritual Babylon is that to Her any good prophet is a dead profit, because She must securely guard the profits of Her false prophets. Her false prophets are the preachers who have the luxury of airtime and the open support of politicians. As they said in ancient Rome, he who rules the religion rules the region.
“It is pathetic when common people foolishly give in to bigotry, and allow it to consume them, thus quenching the divide and conquer strategy of the real enemies on top of this ailing world of uncivilized religious dogma.
“Is this message rational? Let us ask fellow human beings like Iran’s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the Supreme Leader of the Iran’s Shiites who want religious control of Iraq, and let us ask President Bush and other theocratic politicians who want to be in control of other countries.â€
How many nations have endeavored to ward off the evil spirits of theocratic infiltration? How many nations have shed blood for theocracy? How many more nations will endure this menace? When will this world have a spiritual rebirth, and find no place for the shelter of suppression and the sorceries that she allows to freely rein?
Evil has nothing to fear but the loss of fear.
January 4th, 2006 at 3:21 amThen Giacomo, you have your own religion with different values. That’s fine, but define it. I’ve asked before and you haven’t.
I really don’t though … it seems to me that you have not encountered Christians who enjoy honest debate, question and challenge their faith, and don’t adhere to a legalistic tome. ALL the Christians that I know (but not all I have known) are similar to me in this regard.
Christianity is simple. It does believe in good versus evil. If you don’t, then perhaps you’ve invented another form of it – or something else entirely. But you can’t proclaim to be a Christian when you pick and choose which of their tennents to follow and which to ignore.
It’s not about good vs. evil – a dichotomy or war between two equal powers for control of hearts and minds. Good exists … evil is not the antithesis of good, but the absence of good (much like darkness which is not an entity but a lack of light). I don’t pick and choose tenants in any way … we just haven’t “conversed” enough to nail down who/what I am (so you filter what you think of me from past experiences or knowledge).
My ‘experience’ has ranged from Southern Baptist to Methodist to Unitarian to Catholic to non-denominational to Lutheran. They have a different take on what you consider Christianity to be. You’re entitled to your own variety, but you should be implicit about that before you defend generic Christianity, which is all about Good v. Evil.
My “brand” is neither generic nor self-created … If we were to have a question/answer session, I think you’d find that the “basics” of Christianity are not up for debate (by me at least) but the practice of ones faith (ie. levels of legalism, reaching out to those who aren’t Christians) may be different than you’ve experienced.
I’m sorry Giacomo, but the things you state as facts are terribly skewed to the right and not independent or cross referenced. Maybe you personally don’t make it up, but you do employ strategies of using not-so credible information to validate your point.
Facts can’t be skewed because they are facts … my opinions will obviously show an inclination in one direction or another. If my info. isn’t credible, then, by all means, challenge my source … mostly, TP comments are opinion based (but usually inflated by the poster as a “fact”).
I just think you haven’t considered the other side at all, and that makes you appear very biased and not terribly convincing. I don’t think that makes you a bad guy, but I think it does make it difficult to have conversations because you like define stuff as you go along. That was all I was telling him.
Well … I’m here to read about the “other side” so I’m somewhat consider it. I don’t post to argue or be hateful but to challenge and learn (mostly). As far as I know, I’m not defining stuff as I go along … I know what I think … perhaps because you don’t know what I think some confusion is caused (and assuming what I think only exacerbates it).
If you believe what you say, then you are not a Christian. You keep trying to relate this to some bad experience I had. No bad experiences. I’m not angry. I keep telling you, I read the Bible. There’s a lot of hate in it and very little about something I value immensely – self-appreciation. People who value themselves value others. Christianity, per the Bible, says that you should hate yourself or you are egotistical and boastful. The book was written by a bunch of Flat-Earthers living in the desert, not scholars and psychologists and free thinkers.
1) I am a Christian
2) I don’t think you’ve had bad experiences (ala abuse) … I think you haven’t met someone who understood what it meant to be a Christian. It’s not about legalism and it’s not about “rule” following.
3) There are certainly passages within the Bible that could be labelled as “hate” or wildly outlandish … you must keep in mind that the Bible is meant to be understood in it’s totality and not just within individual verses. Imagine reading a book and trying to figure out its message from 100 out of 15,000 paragraphs … the Bible has much to say about human value … a glaring example … how about the premise that someone would come and die for others to save them from impending doom?
The Bible represents Christianity Giacomo. It’s what I use to determine what Christianity is. If you don’t subscribe to it, perhaps you’re just a Deist or ‘Spiritual but not Religious’, or something else along those lines. But Christianity is pretty clear about what it is – it has a book that spells it all out.
The Bible is the story of God’s progressive revelation to mankind … in that sense, it is what Christianity is. I subscribe to it, but you happen to not understand it very well. I’m no deist and I don’t claim to be “spiritual” (in the general sense). I am very much a Christian … unfortunately, you haven’t encountered someone who could actually speak to what the Bible says about mankind and could answer the hard questions about confusing messages/passages. Christ summed up “Christianity” very succinctly …
1) Love the Lord your God
2) Love your neighbor as yourself
Not a very hatefilled message is it? The themes of Christ’s message are about abundant life, love for others (including enemies), discipleship and growth, etc. … I’m sorry you’ve, to this point, understood otherwise. To put it plainly, you’re wrong.
January 4th, 2006 at 11:12 am1) Fundamentalist Christians are idiots – they’ve made Jesus the new god, and they’ve made god irrelevant.
Some “fundamentalists” have clearly missed the point and have adopted a legal interpretation that, in my opinion, totally misses Christ’s message. Christians believe in the trinity and that Jesus is both part of and separate from God.
2) Jesus was an ordinary human like the rest of us. At no point in any scripture does Jesus say “worship me†or “I am god†or “start a religion based on my teachingsâ€. It’s clear that Jesus wanted nothing of the sort.
Well He says “I am the way the truth and the life” … He answers the high priests questions about whether or not He’s the Christ by saying “I am (a phrase that the Jews believed should only be voiced by God), and you will see the Son of Man (another title he uses for himself) seated at the right hand of Power”
In addition, after the resurrection the Bible says “And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.â€
It’s clear that you are ill informed on what Jesus said.
3) Jesus was (actually spoke) Arimaic. In that culture, to be betrothed was to be known “as a virginâ€. This is exactly the point Mary and Joseph were at when they conceived Jesus. In fact, most children born in Arimathea at the time were considered “virgin†births because that was the custom of those people. It was a polite way of saying, “oops, we’re pregnant out of wedlock,†because these betrothals were arranged and the typical result (or sign of success, if you will) was pregnancy. (Check out the Dead Sea Scrolls, it’s all in there, folks)
Let me explain what the Bible actually says … it all depends on the original Greek text to shed some additional light. The verb EGENNESEN (begat or “to father”) is used 38 times in Matthew 1.2-16, but there is a change in the inflected form in its use in verse 16 – “and Jacob begat (EGENNESEN) Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born (EGENNETHE) Jesus, who is called Christ.” The word EGENNESEN is the aorist active indicative and EGENNETHE is the aorist passive indicative of the root verb GENNAO. In vs.16, there is a deliberate change form active voice to the passive in describing the birth of Jesus. EGENNETHE in the phrase “of whom was born Jesus” is passive and it emphasises that in contrast to all the preceding men who sired their sons, Joseph did not begat Jesus. This usage stresses that Jesus was born of Mary without any participation by Joseph.
In Matt. 1:16, the relative pronoun HES (of whom) is feminine singular and its antecedent is Mary. This usage clearly indicates that Jesus was born of Mary alone and not of Mary and Joseph.
Joseph was represented as the guardian but not the father of Jesus Christ. Progressosaurus Rex states that Joseph was the father of Jesus. Luke 3:23 states: “and Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years old; being as was supposed son of Joseph” … “As was supposed” is the translation of OS ENOMIZETO. The verb is ENOMIZETO the imperfect passive indicative of NOMIZO which means to think or consider. This verb is used 15 times in the New Testament and has the meaning of supposition rather than actuality (Matt. 5:17; 10:34; 20:10; Luke 2:44; 3:23; Acts. 7:25; 8:20; 14:19; 16:13, 27; 21:29; 17:29; I Cor. 7:26,36; I Tim. 6:5).
The comments that “to be betrothed” was the same thing as saying “to be a virgin” is only relevant due to the fact that most women were virgins when they were married. Also, the comment “most children born in Arimathea at the time were considered “virgin†births because that was the custom of those people” is incorrect … most women were virgins prior to conception, but not at the birth of their child. The Biblical authors take great pains to linguistically differentiate Jesus’s birth with the others of his day (as I showed prior) …
4) Joseph was Jesus’ father. What kind of sap was Joseph if one day he came home and Mary said, “welcome home honey- guess what? I’m pregnant!†and then, “oh, by the way, it’s not yours — it’s actually god’s!†Personally, if Joseph stood for that, especially in that day and age, I’d be shocked. Any other man at the time would have booted his wife right out the tent for cheating on him and lying about it. So if you’re trying to tell me Joseph just said, “great, honey!†without any issue whatsoever, especially since in Arimathea that would have been a repudiation of their betrothal, you’re denying human nature. Joseph would’ve found himself a new woman, period.
Here’s the actual account from Matthew (which you’ve obviously never read) …
Joseph was a normal guy …
5) This isn’t to take away from any of the great lessons that Jesus taught… it’s just to inject some perspective into an otherwise nonsensical religious edict. The Dead Sea Scrolls could be scripture like anything else in the bible, but the truths contained therein are considered too dangerous for christianity.
The dead sea scrolls have been used in recent translations of the Bible … You’ve been reading or talking to someone who’s clueless. The legends of what was contained in the Dead Sea Scrolls are far beyond what was actually there. There were no lost books of the Bible or other literature that there was not already other copies of. The vast majority of the Dead Sea Scrolls were simply copies of books of the Old Testament from 250-150 B.C. A copy or portion of nearly every Old Testament book was found in Qumran. There were extra-biblical and apocryphal books found as well, but again, the vast majority of the scrolls were copies of the Old Testament. The Dead Sea Scrolls were such an amazing discovery in that the scrolls were in excellent condition and had remained hidden for so long (over 2000 years). The Dead Sea Scrolls can also give us confidence in the reliability of the Old Testament manuscripts since there were minimal differences between the manuscripts that had previously been discovered and those that were found in Qumran.
The scrolls most familiar contents are texts of the Bible … texts (mainly quite fragmentary) for every book but Esther. There are also works based on or related to the Bible, sometimes called the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha. Among them are Hebrew and Aramaic texts of works transmitted in secondary versions (1 Enoch, Jubilees, Sirach), as well as previously unknown works (Genesis Apocryphon, “pesharim” or biblical commentaries on the Prophets and Psalms, targums of Job and Leviticus). Moreover, there are many previously unknown “rules” for community life (Community Rule), for the eschatological battle (War Scroll), and for the ideal-temple city (Temple Scroll). Finally there are poetic and liturgical pieces (Thanksgiving Hymns, Songs of the Sabbath Sacrifice), wisdom instructions, legal rulings (4QMMT), horoscopes, and even a treasure map (Copper Scroll).
According to Thiering, the holy family including Joseph the carpenter belonged to this group. “Jesus was the leader of a radical faction of Essene priests. He was not of virgin birth,†she says. Furthermore the bible mentions Joseph the carpenter, a number of times as the father of Jesus, as in Matthew 1-18 etc.
Joseph was not a member of the Essenes although Jesus’s cousin John the Baptizer appears to have been. Without getting into great detail 1) Joseph was a carpenter and thus not dedicated to a monsatic life (ie. not an essene) 2) as I stated above, the Biblical greek clearly differentiates (linguistically) the concept of virgin 3) Jesus was brought to the temple as a young boy (in Luke) … the essenes did not adhere to this concept of the “temple” and argued that their group was the real temple (ie. Joseph not an essene) …
Dr Barbara Thiering also believed that Jesus got married … she’s a bit of a conspiracy theorist. The website below speaks to some of her claims …
http://www.anchist.mq.edu.au/251/Thierful.htm
January 4th, 2006 at 12:00 pm2) I don’t think you’ve had bad experiences (ala abuse) … I think you haven’t met someone who understood what it meant to be a Christian. It’s not about legalism and it’s not about “rule†following.
I had to think about how many people I’ve known in my life. Hard to define, but I’m very sociable and would say that as a low estimate I’ve known on a casual or greater level thousands of people – say 15,000 Americans. If 75% of the people in this country are Christian (which is a high estimate), then I’ve known about 11,000 Christians. Do you really expect me to think they are all wrong and you are right? Sorry, but I don’t.
It’s fine if you have your own version. It’s just not the most popular version. And it ignores the good v. evil aspect of Christianity.
I guess I’ve just spent a considerable amount of time questioning it and you’ve not given me anything to overshadow that mountain of consideration. My views have not changed, I still think religion causes far more harm than good and that we do not need it. People innately know how to behave. It’s just years of others doing their thinking for them that causes their brains to rust, and humanity to find itself dangerously ignorant…
January 4th, 2006 at 2:39 pmChrist summed up “Christianity†very succinctly …
1) Love the Lord your God
2) Love your neighbor as yourself
Not a very hatefilled message is it? The themes of Christ’s message are about abundant life, love for others (including enemies), discipleship and growth, etc. … I’m sorry you’ve, to this point, understood otherwise. To put it plainly, you’re wrong.
Comment by Giacomo — January 4, 2006 @ 11:12 am
But Christ didn’t create Christianity… Christianity includes the Old Testament in it’s holy book, which is filled with violence, hate and abuse. You can ignore that if you wish, but it doesn’t make it untrue. And it doesn’t make it unChristian as you’ve implied.
I’m not wrong Giacomo. And it’s pretty arrogant and egocentric of you to speak for all of Christianity (33% of the world’s population) to say that. And if anything, the behavior of the majority of Christians proves that you are in denial on this.
January 4th, 2006 at 2:43 pmIt’s clear that you are ill informed on what Jesus said.
This is what drives me nuts here – you claim to be the ultimate authority and refuse to consider anything anyone else says. What Rex wrote was supported by research and history and just basically made sense. To state otherwise is not an argument, it’s simply your opinion. Your views on Christianity are your opinion, they aren’t the reality. And you’re not convincing anyone otherwise.
Until you’ve questioned your own beliefs, you really can’t know what’s the truth. And that is the reality of it.
January 4th, 2006 at 2:49 pmholy crap!
January 4th, 2006 at 4:14 pmNot that the apple never falls far from the tree — but it’s interesting that Lusk’s baptist minister father Herbert I plead guilty (only a few years ago) to five felony counts of abusing government money meant for the child care program that he ran in Monterey, CA. From the news stories, one can infer that he was at the least quite an SOB through it all:
http://www.montereycountyweekly.com/articles/7333
January 9th, 2006 at 11:54 pmThe word ‘idiot’ comes from Latin from Greek for ‘layman’. What an insult, huh?
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