Chao’s Spin on Sago: We Saw the Problem, We Just Didn’t Do Anything About It
Chao’s Spin on Sago: We Saw the Problem, We Just Didn’t Do Anything About It
Appearing on MSNBC this morning, Secretary of Labor Elaine Chao tried to defend the administration’s record on mine safety enforcement, stating that federal inspectors had “increased their inspections [at the Sago mine] by about 84 percent.â€
It is true that inspectors increased their inspections at Sago, but Chao neglected to mention what the inspections found. Federal investigators repeatedly documented the unsafe conditions at the mine:
Nearly half of the 208 safety citations levied in 2005 against the Sago coal mine where 12 men died this week were “serious and substantial.” Federal inspectors found 20 dangerous roof-falls, 14 power wire insulation problems, and three cases of inadequate ventilation plans, among the 96 major violations.
Amber Helms, whose father died in the mine, said: “If they had that many violations…, they shouldn’t have had the mines open in my opinion.” The problem wasn’t inspections; the problem was enforcement. Proper enforcement at Sago may have saved lives. As the New York Times editorializes this morning, the starting premise of the federal investigation “must be that the explosion that choked off 12 workers’ lives would never have happened if all the safety rules now on the books had been properly enforced.â€
And each day, the evidence continues to mount that federal mine safety overseers, despite knowing about the problem, turned a blind eye to it:
Joe McGowan, a longtime Buckhannon, W.Va., resident who’s worked coal mines, oil and gas fields, and timber jobs in the past, says he spoke with his friend Junior Hamner, who died in the explosion, just two weeks ago about the dangers. “He said it’s nothing but a walking time bomb,” says Mr. McGowan, in a measured drawl. “He told me, ‘They’re going to kill us all.’”
Spinning statistics isn’t going to make mines any safer. Enforcing the laws will.
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog Roll
The Do-Nothing Administration strikes again!
January 6th, 2006 at 11:52 amJust more evidence that BushCo will not be deterred in its mission to avoid blame for all bad outcomes for American citizens — particularly those that they’re charged to prevent. They’ve apparently tired of killing Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan, and now have decided to kill us in our own home towns.
Oh but wait — maybe it was God’s fault. Yeah, that’s it — it was a lightning strike. Nahh…that can’t be it…West Virginia is a red state! Perhaps Pat Robertson will blame this on the mining company for carving up “God’s land”???
January 6th, 2006 at 11:59 amIt does not come as a surprise. So when are u americans (not u but those who are blind) open your eyes?
January 6th, 2006 at 11:59 amThis would fit the GOP pattern: don’t like the effect of the law on your business? Make sure it doesn’t get enforced, make sure there are no meaningful consequences for lack of compliance, and defund the enforcing agency. Cheney definitely seems to have a soft spot for the mining industry, so lack of enforcemenct on MSHA’s part should come as no surprise. Nor should additional tragedies like this.
January 6th, 2006 at 12:08 pmBush and crew will claim this WV counties unemployment rates dropped (12 new mining jobs open)and then trumpet this as an economic success.
January 6th, 2006 at 12:24 pmDo you know the difference between american and chinese coal miners? The Chinese have realized their government doesn’t care about their lives,”not a political concern”.
January 6th, 2006 at 12:27 pmOur miners think the government gives a rats ass.
[...] Read more Enforcement [...]
January 6th, 2006 at 12:27 pmThe spin machine is spinning so fast now, it is going to jump to hyper space.
January 6th, 2006 at 12:30 pmOur miners think the government gives a rats ass.
If they are actual coal miners, they probably knew better long ago. But that still doesn’t relieve the government of it’s responsibilities.
January 6th, 2006 at 12:31 pmHeckuva job, Chaoey.
January 6th, 2006 at 12:38 pm#3: Most Americans could care less…they are all medicated with cars, malls, and Reality TV….keep the people entertained…no different than an illusionist getting you to look where he/she wants you to in order to manipulate the situation..
January 6th, 2006 at 12:39 pmThe REAL problem is the fact that many of these people in that W. Va mining community (and other porr/middle working class communities just like them) continue to demonize unions and vote against their own economic self interests. They are red state republiscum, who blindly followed Bushiva and L’il Dick.
hopefully they’ll change their tune in ‘06.
January 6th, 2006 at 12:41 pmI doubt that any coal miners fall into the category of “bush’s base”, aka, the republican base. Just like most of the residents of the gulf coast, especically New Orleans, do not fall into the “bush’s base” category. This is the simple yet glaring fact that will be ignored. However, what will be exposed is that some “doin’ a heckuva job” former dog-show-host appointed cronie was in charge of this whole thing.
Every republican, whether an elected official or your next door neighbor, needs to be challenged on this.
January 6th, 2006 at 12:42 pmAnother horrifying example in which the American people (the commoners) are subjugated for the benefit of the elite few. The knowledge of the (then) impending 9/11 terrorist attacks, the unjustified Iraqi war, election fraud, the OCC sitting on the Prudential lawsuit, etc, etc, etc.
Not only is impeachment an excellent strategy (one that probably has a snowball’s chance in hell) but we need to shore up our election process so dipshits like Bush can’t buy their seats (or DeLay, etc, etc, etc).
January 6th, 2006 at 12:46 pmDo you realize that in the last 3 days,this is the third post about the mine tragedy with hundreds of comments, but in August when 14 Marines died in one IED explosion there was one post and that was it.
January 6th, 2006 at 12:48 pmThe miners could have chosen not to go to work that day,but the Marines didn’t have the same choice.
Out of sight (and coverage)out of mind,I guess.
Why wasn’t Anderson Cooper reporting from the scene of the deaths of 5 US soldiers yesterday? Oh,yeah,no IEDs in WVa.
TJM – you raise a good point when it comes to the American attention span: very brief. Also, one has to distribute some responsibility to how MSM is covering much of these activities. And, last but not least, there’s so much that it’s getting overwhelming. How much can the American public withstand in relation to this negativity. I’m not saying to put on rose colored glasses but at what point does the collective frustration level have to reach before we finally start to act to effect positive, constructive change? Somewhere there’s a breaking point; it’s just a question of when.
January 6th, 2006 at 12:56 pmThe starting premise of the federal investigation “must be that the explosion that choked off 12 workers’ lives would never have happened if all the safety rules now on the books had been properly enforced.â€
No … not even by a long shot. An investigation doesn’t “start” by pre-ordaining why the outcome occurred … in fact, just the opposite. They look at all the FACTS and then come to a conclusion based upon the FACTS.
I agree that, from what we know already, the Mining company has some “splainin” to do … but why call for a tainted investigation (unless of course it makes the administration look bad and that’s the entire point of the NYT’s editiorial). I thought “journalists” were supposed to follow the story and not create one?
January 6th, 2006 at 12:56 pmGood point TJM. How come no one here speaks out against the Iraq war?
Duh.
January 6th, 2006 at 12:57 pmLong-haired preachers come out every night,
Try to tell you what’s wrong and what’s right;
But when asked how ’bout something to eat
They will answer with voices so sweet:
CHORUS:
You will eat, bye and bye,
In that glorious land above the sky;
Work and pray, live on hay,
You’ll get pie in the sky when you die.
The starvation army they play,
They sing and they clap and they pray
‘Till they get all your coin on the drum
Then they’ll tell you when you’re on the bum:
Holy Rollers and jumpers come out,
They holler, they jump and they shout.
Give your money to Jesus they say,
He will cure all diseases today.
If you fight hard for children and wife –
Try to get something good in this life –
You’re a sinner and bad man, they tell,
When you die you will sure go to hell.
Workingmen of all countries, unite,
Side by side we for freedom will fight;
When the world and its wealth we have gained
To the grafters we’ll sing this refrain:
FINAL CHORUS:
January 6th, 2006 at 12:58 pmYou will eat, bye and bye,
When you’ve learned how to cook and to fry.
Chop some wood, ’twill do you good,
And you’ll eat in the sweet bye and bye.
Giacomo,
I agree wholeheartedly. Perhaps we can send a memo to:
- Novak
January 6th, 2006 at 12:59 pm- Matthews
- Miller
- Fox News Dept.
The West Virginia Office of Miners Health, Safety and Training are responsible for the health and safety of the state’s miners.
Davitt McAteer wrote a report to Governor Bob Wise in the Fall of 2001. And it states:
“The Office of Miners Health Safety and Training is the agency responsible for
the health and safety of the State’s miners. During the period 1996 – 2000, a number
of steps were taken which diminished the agencies authority, manpower, and capacity
to effectively address health and safety problems. The legal staff position became
vacant and has not been filled; the number of inspectors was curtailed, even while
the number of inspectable operations was increasing in large part due to the
increased use of independent contractors. Also, during this period the numbers of
penalty citations declined and the amount of dollars assessed and collected was
halved. In addition, the lack of an attorney meant that there was no one to handle
de-certification actions against supervisors who violated the law and the number of cases dropped to virtually nothing.”
Come on Faiz. get informed. The state bares responsibilty in this disaster, too. Why do they get a pass? Because they’re Democrats? If the mine was unsafe the state shouldn’t have approved the permit and had to authority to de-certify the mine.
January 6th, 2006 at 1:02 pmChao got the job of Secretary of Labor because W thought it had something to do with giving birth. What better choice for the job is there than a woman?
January 6th, 2006 at 1:02 pmTJM,
They revised that number this morning to 11.
Why do you think they would hold off on telling us about 6 American soldiers deaths? Is it because double digits lok bad? Or because reporting bad news helps the terrorists? Does it demoralize the troops?
January 6th, 2006 at 1:10 pmUh, Steed, isn’t WV a red state?
January 6th, 2006 at 1:10 pmTJM,
January 6th, 2006 at 1:13 pmAll the apologists have been complaining that the media does not report the “good news” from Iraq. Are you really, and I’m not being sarcastic, suggesting that the media is now so focused on the bad news here at home that they are ignoring the bad news from Iraq?
Ah yes, the old Katrina arguement.
“It is not us, it is them.”
Sorry, their is federal oversite for a reason. I know you guys don’t believe in it or think it exists, but it does.
January 6th, 2006 at 1:14 pmA soldier’s job by definitioj is to kill and to risk being killed. I don’t think the miners signed up for that.
January 6th, 2006 at 1:16 pmSo TJM, how much do they pay you to try and get us off thread?
Uh, Steed, isn’t WV a red state?
Governor, Treasurer, Agric. Commissioner, Lieutenant Governor, Attorney General, Speaker of the House are all Democrats … not sure about the breakdowns of the House and Senate. I think that’s what Steed’s inferring.
January 6th, 2006 at 1:20 pmIf you agree then browse http://www.boycott-republicans.com
Ben Franklin certainly does a lot of advertising here (especially for a dead guy).
January 6th, 2006 at 1:21 pmCome on folks!
January 6th, 2006 at 1:34 pmWho’s fault is it, this war, mining accident and all that is going to hell.
It’s us! You, Me and the rest of our sick society.
Democracy is an experiment and it slipped through our fingers,lies broken on the floor.
Steed,
You forgot the point where 1996-2000 was the period where republicans controlled congress, and thereby dismantled saftey. It’s funny you call on others to take responsibility, but the folks who actually had the responsibility (republicans in congress in the 1996-2000) are given a free ride.
And then you also forgot to mention that bush cut the number of inspectors and refused to raise the fines so they would actually have enough financial impact to have a proper incentive. You want to blame the state for this, but mine safety is the job of the federal government, not the state government. It’s the same old tired excuses you apologists gave Mike Brown. You sure do hate competence, but you love to call others ignorant when they point it out. Classic projection among republican apologists too immature to accept responsibility is clearly the cause if this anti-social behavior among you and your peers.
January 6th, 2006 at 1:36 pmWhat is really missing from the story is the OUTRAGE of Robert “White sheet” Byrd and Jay Rockefeller.
January 6th, 2006 at 1:43 pmThe MSM (however that term is defined) has consistently failed to put together available information about the stories in Iraq. For example,the Marines were killed outside Haditha,a town that was being “cleared” for the 3rd time. They were riding in an armored amphibious vehicle,but the Spec.Insp.Gen’l in Iraq has reported:”Prior reviews of logistics activities in OIF showed that DoD’s supply system was unable to effectively meet warfighter needs by failing to provide a number of critical supplies and equipment,including protective items,such as body armor and armored Humvees”
Think those two items are connected?That’s a report delivered to Congress evey quarter. It must be in the same reading pile as the pre-war intelligence assessments.
Here,it may be that the inspectors failed to close a mine,in Iraq,there’s a DefSec who has been a total failure to even provide basic needs for the troops. When in our history,at least since the Revolutionary War,has the army been unable to supply its own troops.
In the latest defense appropriation, a provision was in the bill that would reimburse families up to $1100 each for body armor purchased. Our own army,best trained best equipped? Has to have their families buy armor for them and then seek reimbursement from the local commander?
Writing comments about impeachment and wringing your hands about being misled into the war is okay if you want to stay in that position for the next 3 years. I prefer to do what I can by writing my Congressman and Senators with these kinds of questions. I’ve read the GAO reports,the DoD reports,the State Dept. weekly reports,etc. Those are unclassified but the rest of the info,the classified reports,are what set Murtha off. What does the media reprot. Some git (gittess?) from Ohio instead of follow-up.
January 6th, 2006 at 1:45 pmSorry,this aspect of the war effort just rankles. I suppose we all have hot button issues.
What is really missing from the story is the OUTRAGE of Robert “White sheet†Byrd and Jay Rockefeller. mighty aphrodite,
I thought what was missing was the outrage and accountability of the republicans who dismantled the regulations and enforcement of mine safety systematically since 1996. Well, I guess you’re probably one of those wild west libertarian types who believe that companies should be allowed to kill workers, because they can always find another job elsewhere. And let me guess, you call anyone who believes in proper regulation a ‘commie’, and you always bring people’s pasts, and ignore their ‘present’? You probably conveniently forget the racist comments of ‘Black people are used to living in shelters’ Barbara Bush, or ‘I prefer segregation and pre-civil war status’ Trent Lott, and you probably defend the youthful cocain snorting, and boozin and criminality of GWBush, whereas you happily bring up the youthful indiscretions Byrd like they’re still true.
Does this sort of intellectual and moral dishonesty come easy to you, or do you have to work yourself up in the morning to reach these heights of immorality?
January 6th, 2006 at 1:50 pmNo, Mighty Aphrodite, what is missing is the outrage from citizens such as yourself. You have been lied to, your fellow citizens are dying in Iraq in an illegal war, the Gulf Coast due to monumental incompentence, and in preventable industrial accidents, and you are being spied upon by your own governmental agencies. Yet people such as yourself just say “thank you sir, may I have another” and then try to blame everyone else for not being as subserviant and ignorant as yourself.
January 6th, 2006 at 1:53 pmRight Punch,
January 6th, 2006 at 1:54 pmMine safety and permitting is the responsibility of the state. OMHST is the lead agency. You are completely wrong.
I doubt that any coal miners fall into the category of “bush’s baseâ€, aka, the republican base. Just like most of the residents of the gulf coast, especically New Orleans, do not fall into the “bush’s base†category.
Comment by Optimist #13
The miners could have chosen not to go to work that day,but the Marines didn’t have the same choice.
Comment by TJM #115
Optimist and TJM,
One could argue that you’re both dead wrong. Bush “supposedly” carried both the southern Gulf Coast region and the military vote in ‘04, no doubt in large part to poor/middle working class (miners and soldiers) alike.
The time has come for all poor/middle working class Americans in all jobs to know where there best interests lie, especially when voting…
January 6th, 2006 at 1:54 pmDemocracy is an experiment and it slipped through our fingers,lies broken on the floor.
Comment by West Virginia Hillbilly
C’mon W. Va Hillbilly #31,
It sure didn’t SEEM as “BROKEN” before Bushiva and L’il Dick rode in…
January 6th, 2006 at 1:59 pmBig Papa,
Your argument is valid, I agree. However, I cannot take the approach that these folks voted for bush so they deserved to die. That is an oversimplification and wholly incorrect from a humanitarian perspective.
Understand that many in the south were “tricked” into voting for bush with campaigns that a vote for the other side was a vote for terrorism, or that the other side was planning to ban the bible. You pity fools, but you hold to account those who maliciously “fooled” them.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:02 pmThis is so predictable. To the fever swamp Left, any disaster, no matter how difficult to prevent, must be the President’s fault. So blaming President Bush for a mine disaster is a no brainer, right?
Wrong. If I believed that I would have no trouble blaming President Clinton for a whole host of disasters – including Waco (dozens of children burned alive) and the lion’s share of fault for 9/11 (3,000 killed). But I don’t subscribe to that “blame the President” theory in Clinton’s case any more than I do in the case of this President.
Look, this disaster, like all disasters, was tragic. Just as tragic as all the other workplace ACCIDENTS that take people’s lives every day. People do dangerous jobs every day in which the government is involved either directly or indirectly. People are accidentally killed in those jobs every day. But it does not follow from the occurrence of such an accident that it was caused by a lack of government oversight – or that it could have been prevented by increased regulatory enforcement. Accidents, do happen, unfortunately, regardless of what measures humans take to prevent them. That is especially true when humans work underground.
This accident, like any accident, should be investigated. It may be that some human wrongdoing was involved, but we can’t possibly know about that yet. What we do know is that it can’t possibly have been the government’s fault. As big as it is, the government doesn’t yet make daily operational decisions on how to run American businesses.
If you must have a theory to explain this accident, consider this argument: America has the most powerful economy in the world, and is therefore a leading consumer of energy. Yet, unlike most of our economic rivals, we leave many of our most easily tapped energy resources untouched for environmental reasons. That makes energy production all the more important in areas where existing production facilities already exist – as is the case with coal mines.
Many mines have shut down for economic reasons, including bankruptcy. Typically they go into a long period of decline in safety and maintenance as they near the end of operations. ICG was a company that bought a lot of defunct or bankrupt coal companies with the intention of restarting mining operations.
The problem is this: you can’t make up overnight for all the prior owners’ safety and maintenance lapses. So one could argue that this accident really happened because of the limitations – both natural and political – placed on our domestic energy production. President Bush, to his credit, has been a leader in trying to reduce political restrictions on dmestic energy production.
The government’s choice is often between encouraging some production, while the new owners improve conditions, or preventing any production at all. No production equals no jobs. It also equals reduced energy supplies, which equals higher energy prices.
It is an unfortunate fact that, if this mine had been shut down, Junior Hamner might well have been unemployed, or he might have been working in an even more dangerous job. Or he might have been killed in some other kind of accident. In the meantime, Faiz might well be paying more to heat his home and cook his food and fuel his car – and it’s a good bet he wouldn’t be doing a darn thing to give Mr. Hamner a helping hand.
ICG gave Junior Hamner a job. It was a dangerous job, but one that paid him well and allowed him to support his family. Unfortunately, Mr. Hamner’s job also killed him. Perhaps a fitting memorial would be to give his children more job opportunities in other energy producing industries, such as oil production in ANWR and the continental shelf. Then Faiz could heat his home and cook his food and fuel his car more cheaply, without having to worry about Mr. Hamner or his children.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:03 pmWhat you don’t understand is, we the poor/working class believe in God,guns and honest people. Seems neither party can deliver.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:03 pmMine safety and permitting is the responsibility of the state. OMHST is the lead agency. You are completely wrong.
Steed Lankershim
You sure are confident about a topic you apparently don’t know anything about. Go to google and search for MSHA, and notice the first like that appears:
Mine Safety and Health Administration (MSHA) – US Department of Labor
January 6th, 2006 at 2:04 pmFederal enforcement agency responsible for the health and safety of the nation’s miners.
http://www.msha.gov/
Blue State Red,
Actually this is mostly the fault of the Republicans in Congress, although cutting the role of the MSHA and trying to shove everything back to the state level is definitely also the responsiblity of Bush. Are all of you guys so uni-dimensional that you can’t think that maybe other republicans than Bush are criminal? Because the news this week proves there’s enough criminality and irresponsibility in your party to go around, there’s no need for it to apply to Bush personally. Although republicans always said everything that happened wrong under Clinton was his fault, and everything that was good was because of Congress – so clearly you’re projecting with your criticism. I can understand why. This must be a disheartening week for a partisan like yourself, to be proven that 60+ members of your party are truly criminal.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:07 pmOf course Labor ignored the violations … the mine’s owners were probably Bush Pioneers!
January 6th, 2006 at 2:07 pmKnow who you are dealing with.
http://www.time.com/time/2002/enron/
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/wmd-a22.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3478621.stm
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/21/budget-vote/#comments
http://www.flaregun.org/?p=53
This just off the top of my head.
Right Wing, go and defend that legacy.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:08 pm“Many mines have shut down for economic reasons, including bankruptcy. Typically they go into a long period of decline in safety and maintenance as they near the end of operations. ICG was a company that bought a lot of defunct or bankrupt coal companies with the intention of restarting mining operations.” Blue State Red
So what you’re saying is the means justify the ends. It’s ok for a company to kill workers, as long as some of those workers get jobs? It’s people like you that prove why we need federal regulations to prohibit unsafe operations. I’m sure the family of those miners will disagree with you that this was a reasonable risk or sacrifice. But if you’re so sure that this a good practice, why don’t you go spend a year doing the job in west virginia, and come back and talk to us. Until then, you have a lot to say, but don’t really have much to add from what I can see.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:10 pmbig papa,your comment is so ignorant all I’ll say is it’s “their” interests not “there”. ESL?
January 6th, 2006 at 2:19 pm#37
Actually Steed, you are incorrect. The people in charge of Mine Safety is MSHA.
You know,
U.S. Department of Labor
Mine Safety and Health Administration
Here is their website:
http://www.msha.gov/
See, they are the ones conducting the investigation into the Mine accident
Federal Mine Safety Agency Launches Accident Investigation
January 6th, 2006 at 2:19 pmRight Punch,
I’m in the energy and mining industry. That’s why I know what I’m talking about and you don’t. It’s what I’ve been doing for 30 years. You haven’t.
The West Virginia Office of Miners Health Safety and Training is the agency responsible for the health and safety of the State’s miners. The state is reponsible for approving and revoking mining permits.
Davitt McAteer wrote a report to Governor Bob Wise in the Fall of 2001. You should read it before you spout off with your nonsense.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:23 pmHere’s the link you should be looking at since you’re too lazy to look it up yourself. Your welcome in advance.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:26 pmhttp://www.wvminesafety.org/safety.htm
BSR … fine post
RightPunch … why throw blame around willy nilly before the actual cause of the explosion is known? It’s dishonest to say that BSR thinks it’s ok “for a company to kill (its) workers” … he didn’t remotely say that. He explained the reality of what occurred without a wild ideological slant. Re-read his post … your comments are based upon inferences of your own creation …
January 6th, 2006 at 2:27 pmbig papa,your comment is so ignorant all I’ll say is it’s “their†interests not “thereâ€. ESL?
Comment by TJM #48
Touche, I stand corrected- on the “their” vs “there” point…
As for the “ignorant” part, if you don’t know who voted for whom in the ‘04 presidential race then it is you who is “ignorant”.
W. Va. IS a red state, as are La, Ala, and Ms, and believe me it ain’t because the “majority” of voters there are rich, corporate types…
January 6th, 2006 at 2:40 pmWhat you don’t understand is, we the poor/working class believe in God,guns and honest people. Seems neither party can deliver.
Comment by West Virginia Hillbilly #42,
Those guns and your hypocrisy (honesty, riiight!!!!) are going to be the death of you…
January 6th, 2006 at 2:44 pmSteed, isn’t the relationship of state to federal in the instance of mine safety and permitting like that of state to federal in the case of environmental regulations and enforcement? The state has responsibility for enforcing the federal standards and those additional or specific state regulations, but the federal authority does exist and in the case of disasters such as the Sago mine explosion, the federal authority is or has been in the past the overseeing authority.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:45 pmGiacomo,
BSR’s post was filled with idealogical slant, but based on our discussion yesterday, I’m not surprised you say that.
Steed,
I’d already read that report, but apparently you haven’t.
You probably also missed this part of the report.
As I understand this, the authority curtailment occurred because of laws passed by the republican congress.
Now what part of the energy sector did you say you work in, because so far I’m just seeing you refer to a googled report, that doesn’t say what you claim it does. You couldn’t possibly be a fraud could you? Those are so rare these days among republicans.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:45 pmAunt Deb,
That’s correct, that’s why Steed’s claim of working for the energy industry is so discredited.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:46 pmActually papa I overdid it and I apologize. I was reacting to the cause and effect argument,that because they voted for GWB, they set in motion a chain of events that inevitably led to their deaths. It seemed too deterministic to me.Still, there was no reason to write what I did.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:48 pm“This accident, like any accident, should be investigated…”
Comment by Blue State Red #41
Da*n, do we have any personnel left to can carry out an investigation?
January 6th, 2006 at 2:48 pmLets stop this crap about who is to blame and start thinking about how to fix things.
First, Federal agencies should always trump local. We should not have a situation where its-not-my-jobs can let things like this slide.
A maximum federal charge which is purely a fine for an infraction of safety rules by a mine, when one infraction can lead to a collapsed shaft and the minors working in it dead: Not acceptable. The maximum penalty should be the mine get shut down until such a hazard to the worker’s lives is corrected.
If a mine operates while in violation of safety regulations and miners die due to this, and the said violation was made known to the directors, upper management and majority owners of the said mine, it should constitute depraved indifference and be investigated as murder 2.
Federal investigaters should have the power to make arrests and gather evidence in order to persue the said charge.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:49 pmActually papa I overdid it and I apologize.
Comment by TJM #58
No apology necessary, you were right to correct me on that “there” thing…
BTW, my apologies to the forum for the mistakes , (#59 just eliminate the word “can”), I’m usually a stickler for proofing my posts BEFORE posting them but I’m in a hurry.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:54 pmBSR’s post was filled with idealogical slant, but based on our discussion yesterday, I’m not surprised you say that.
Well, maybe the first sentence does, but the rest of his thesis is apolitical … he talks about economics and workplace conditions … if a casual reader were to read the 3rd through the 10th paragraphs, they would likely have difficulty knowing what political preference the author held (except for the Bush comment in paragraph 7 and the ANWR comment in paragraph 10). Hardly “filled” with slant.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:55 pmThe regulations of MHSA can be found here:
http://www.msha.gov/30cfr/0.0.HTM
The Federal Mine Safety & Health Act of 1977 is here:
http://www.msha.gov/REGS/ACT/ACTTC.HTM
And the trolls who are here, did you actually read the postings that began this thread. FEDERAL INSPECTORS (not state ones) cited Sago.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:56 pm“Well, maybe the first sentence does, but the rest of his thesis is apolitical … he talks about economics and workplace conditions …” Giacomo
And you don’t believe those items are political? Please, how old do you think I am? That’s disengenuous or naive.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:57 pmIf you CAREFULLY read the report you notice the what you selected were recommendations of Bob Wise in 2001. The recommendation was to not to relinquish the states authority. Once again, the state has the authority to approve and revoke permits. Safety inspections responsibilities are shared between state and fed.
And your conclusion:
As I understand this, the authority curtailment occurred because of laws passed by the republican congress.
…is base on what? If Congress in the late 90’s wrote these so-called laws, where were Byrd and Rocky? Why did Clinton sign them? You’ve got to find another way to pass the buck on this one. Go ahead and give it another try. But you will fail.
January 6th, 2006 at 2:58 pm“If you CAREFULLY read the report you notice the what you selected were recommendations of Bob Wise in 2001. The recommendation was to not to relinquish the states authority.” Steed Lankershim
And yet the thread starter (which you clearly didn’t read, just like the report) shows that Sago was cited by FEDERAL inspectors. Clearly the budget crisis that initiated this report culminated in the federal government’s takeover of the state role. Otherwise there’d be no federal inspectors, according the report – right? Or hadn’t that dawned on you? Apparently not.
Now again, what part of the energy sector do you work in, the service sector?
As for the laws in the late 90s, as we both know republicans put rider bills (as they tried recently with ANWR) on key budget and other bills. Clinton was doing a fine job with line item veto and removing items like this till you took it away from him. And lets not forget that Congress writes the budget for MHSA, not the president, he can only press for what he wants. So once again the republicans who controlled congress ‘deregulated’ as usual, and you’re being irresponsible ‘as usual’ in not recognizing the fallout of that mismanagement.
This is FEMA 2.0.
January 6th, 2006 at 3:02 pmExcuse me…recommendations to Bob Wise.
January 6th, 2006 at 3:02 pmFirst, Federal agencies should always trump local. We should not have a situation where its-not-my-jobs can let things like this slide.
So much for states rights, eh?
The maximum penalty should be the mine get shut down until such a hazard to the worker’s lives is corrected.
And then you have some miners pissed because they aren’t being paid … it’s not that easy. Nevermind that “mining” (with 100% compliance with safety rules) is still ridiculously dangerous when compared to most other occupations. If the mine is forced to pay the workers during the shut down, then this sounds good (fat chance on that one though).
If a mine operates while in violation of safety regulations and miners die due to this, and the said violation was made known to the directors, upper management and majority owners of the said mine, it should constitute depraved indifference and be investigated as murder 2.
Where is the threashold though … any violations (may not be realistic) … no serious violations … what? I think manslaughter would be appropriate. Also, if the mining company is public, then major owners are stockholders … should there be different rules for public or privately held mines? And who qualifies as upper management … companies are structured in different ways. Should the CFO (definitely upper management) be held liable when he has no operational control over daily activities. Some of your ideas have merit, but the actual application of them across an industry is harder than you may suppose.
Federal investigaters should have the power to make arrests and gather evidence in order to persue the said charge.
Souns good to me.
January 6th, 2006 at 3:03 pm“Go ahead and give it another try. But you will fail. Steed Lankershim”
This is so ironic coming from republicans. Lets see you failed on 9/11. You failed with Abramoff, Delay, Libby and soon Rove. You failed with Katrina and FEMA. You failed with Osama. You failed with your predictions of flower strewn Iraq and finding WMDs. You now fail with MSHA.
You really should stop projecting all of your failures on others, it will do nothing to help you succeed in the world, and as is true of the world, will only in the end bring your own destruction. Hubris (displaced ego for those of limited vocabulary) always brings down men and women. And baby, you got Hubris.
January 6th, 2006 at 3:05 pmI’ve been permitting oil & gas and hard rock mining operations for 30 years. I don’t normally get into name calling, but you really are an idiot. The state has the authority to revoke the permit. How many times to I have to repeat it.
There was a budget crisis from 1996-2000?
January 6th, 2006 at 3:08 pmOnce, you could count on an American President to say “The buck stops here” and point to himself.
Now it seems all the American President seems to say is “The buck stops there” and point to his predecessor.
Something is deeply wrong in America.
January 6th, 2006 at 3:10 pmNow it seems all the American President seems to say is “The buck stops there†and point to his predecessor.
Didn’t the propensity to blame the predecessor actually start with the predecessor ….. (snark ;-]).
January 6th, 2006 at 3:16 pmSteed,
So what you’re saying is that since the federal government wouldn’t do anything about safety based on federal law, that the state should have revoked the permits? Forget the federal government setting fines to actually have an impact, or actually enforce the 1977 mine safety laws they’re supposed to ensure is enforced. You do realize that this ‘enforcement’ and ‘permitting’ is actually delegated from the federal law don’t you? Or didn’t you get that in your permit training? Interesting ‘logic’, I bet you do fine work.
Name calling – nice. I’m sorry you feel so desperate, but in light of the embarrassment of republicans today, I can understand why you would act out. It’s a typical response one often sees of troubled youth.
As for your whacko budget crisis statement, I don’t know why you’d make that claim, clearly you’re reading from some republican rule book I’ve never heard of.
January 6th, 2006 at 3:17 pmVoluntary compliance in action.
January 6th, 2006 at 3:18 pmGiacomo,
Actually it started with Reagan. He blamed Carter for everything that Nixon had done wrong.
January 6th, 2006 at 3:19 pmRight Punch,
You made the bogus budget crisis statement!!!
Clearly the budget crisis that initiated this report culminated in the federal government’s takeover of the state role.
The report was not initiated because of a budget crisis between 1996-2000!
January 6th, 2006 at 3:21 pm“So much for states rights, eh?”
Giacomo
Coming from a republican, who obviously forgot how republicans on the Supreme Court stepped in and made a mockery of their professed belief in “states rights” by overruling a “state” supreme court, that’s rich.
Terry Schaivo? Where was your concern for “states rights” then?
January 6th, 2006 at 3:24 pmGiacomo
“So much for states rights, eh?”
The sooner we lose the concept of state rights the better. All they achieve is buck tossing whenever anything goes wrong, and a whole bunch of nothing when things go right.
“The maximum penalty should be the mine get shut down until such a hazard to the worker’s lives is corrected.”
First, there is a reason why I said maximum penalty, not just penalty. There are situations where the mine is simply too dangerous to keep on operating but carries on doing so anyway, and in these cases they should be shut down.
“Where is the threashold though … any violations (may not be realistic) … no serious violations … what? I think manslaughter would be appropriate. Also, if the mining company is public, then major owners are stockholders … should there be different rules for public or privately held mines? And who qualifies as upper management … companies are structured in different ways. Should the CFO (definitely upper management) be held liable when he has no operational control over daily activities. Some of your ideas have merit, but the actual application of them across an industry is harder than you may suppose.”
Okay, I would go with wording it as a serious infraction, or significant number of smaller infractions and limit liability to upper management and directors. However, Murder is what it is. There should be no difference just because the murderer was an unscrupulous bussinessman instead of a mugger.
As to the CFO, this is why it should be investigated as to who was in charge of the said mine’s opperation and who is culpable, not just moved through court at a maximum clip. This is not the wording I would put to the amendment to the law, simply the basic idea.
January 6th, 2006 at 3:27 pm“Clearly the budget crisis that initiated this report culminated in the federal government’s takeover of the state role.
The report was not initiated because of a budget crisis between 1996-2000! Steed Lankershim”
Thanks for confirming that you didn’t read the report. First of all the report was in 2001 when the economy was sucking wind in many places like WV. In it, the report complains about the lack of funding for inspectors and resources within the state agency. I excerpted part of this for you that said this, but clearly you didn’t read my excerpt, the report, or the initial thread which points out that FEDERAL INSPECTORS.
You fabricated the date range, just like the rest of your talking points – based on what I’ve read. I find it hard to believe you worked in permitting, because a quick review of federal documents I listed here shows you’re woefully ignorant of how this system works. Clearly you were a government employee with protected status, there’s no way you could have survived with in a commercial world with this level of ineptitude.
January 6th, 2006 at 3:29 pmRP,
The report was prepared for Bob Wise because:
The Office of Miners Health Safety and Training is the agency responsible for
the health and safety of the State’s miners. During the period 1996 – 2000, a number
of steps were taken which diminished the agencies authority, manpower, and capacity
to effectively address health and safety problems. The legal staff position became
vacant and has not been filled; the number of inspectors was curtailed, even while
the number of inspectable operations was increasing in large part due to the
increased use of independent contractors. Also, during this period the numbers of
penalty citations declined and the amount of dollars assessed and collected was
halved. In addition, the lack of an attorney meant that there was no one to handle
de-certification actions against supervisors who violated the law and the number of
cases dropped to virtually nothing.
The limitations on the elevated dollar penalties also meant that the
average mine inspector’s citation was $60, about the same as a parking
ticket; but in the mines, the violations are typically a matter of life or
death.
The shortage of manpower also has meant that little upgrading or training has
January 6th, 2006 at 3:37 pmbeen occurring among the State inspectors. As the recommendations point out, the
project has taken a number of steps to immediately rectify the shortcomings where
possible and we also propose an increase in the agency’s funding, a filling of the
attorney position, a reduction of the level of intent, that inspectors need in order to use elevated penalties, bringing it to the federal standard.
BTW,
January 6th, 2006 at 3:41 pmI’ve never worked for the government.
Okay, now this is getting stupid.
A quick cut and paste from one of my standard arguments:
But Clinton cut the budget/changed the laws/ blah blah blah
Then Bush and the Republican Congress should have upped the budged/changed the laws back/fixed the blah blah blah. This happened on Bush’s watch, therefore it is Bush’s problem.
January 6th, 2006 at 3:46 pmJoe,
Stop talking all that since and throwing around facts.
You are so right, if Bush and friends felt everything Clinton did was wrong, why didn’t they make it right. Instead they made it worse.
January 6th, 2006 at 3:59 pmOkay, here is a question which shows my great cenritude:
Why not instead of this bullshit about Republicans and Democrats, admit that both levels failed and vote for someone else?
When the next election comes, do not vote for the party who advertised most, go and read up on each party, and pick the one you agree with that isn’t Republican or Democrat. The Reps and the Dems have held power for too long, and become complacent. It is time for some new blood, and hey, maybe even a three party state.
January 6th, 2006 at 4:02 pmSomeone needs to explain why mining deaths and disasters that ocurred during the previous administration were never blamed on the political party in power. But this one is Bush’s fault? All parties bare responsibilty here, not just Bush. But the fact remains that mining is a dangerous business. West Virginia recognized that they had a serious problem (13 miners died in the first 10 months of 2001) and took steps to minimize the danger, but it is impossible to expect a zero death rate in a business that is so dangerous. Consider this:
January 6th, 2006 at 4:16 pmUsing the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) National Census of Fatal Occupational
Injuries in 2004 Report (latest available) and Mine Safety & Health Administration
(MSHA) website statistics -
Of the 5,703 total work-related fatalities that occurred in 2004,
only 51 (less than 1%) occurred in coal and mineral mining.
Figures for industries/sectors were:
Trade, Transportation and Public Utilities – 26%
Construction – 21%
Agricultural, Forestry and Fishing – 12%
Manufacturing – 8%
Retail Trade – 7%
Governmental Organizations – 9 %
Coal – 0.4%
Metal/Nonmetal/Stone/Sand & Gravel – 0.4%
All Mining/Extraction (Includes oil & gas extraction per BLS definition) – 3%
Number of Jobs in Construction 7,332,000
Number of Jobs in Mining 75,000
This means that there are 100 times as many people who work in construction than mining, yet if we multiply the .4% by 100 times, we get 40% (twice the risk) of construction.
Steed, I know you’re trying buddie, but you obviously aren’t very good with number or even ideas. Give it up, it’s getting embarrassing for you defending these guys.
As for the ‘responsiblity’ of safety, it’s the federal government that actually has national laws and enforcement obligations on this. It’s why the very report you cite mentions that most states don’t even have state based enforcement. The federal goverment dictates the laws, and enforcement. You’re a real embarrassment to your party there Steed.
January 6th, 2006 at 4:55 pmSteed did you work in Utah? I’m guessing by the level of competence you’ve demostrated, you’d also work in the state that has all of those poisonous supersite mines that destroy the local environment so bad that whole communities of people have to leave or risk two headed babies. It fits based on the value system you’ve demostrated so far, that this would be your pedigree.
January 6th, 2006 at 5:01 pmFrom the federal legislation
Federal Mine Safety & Health Act of 1977,
Public Law 91-173, as amended by Public Law 95-164
The states have a right to regulate beyond the restraints of the federal government, but this law requires the federal government to protect the safety of the workers. As this thread shows, the federal government did not protect the workers, thereby it failed to follow federal laws in this matter. Safety enforcement is a federal issue, although it’s not limited to being a federal issue.
January 6th, 2006 at 5:11 pmThere’s alot of talk about the government being responsible for the mine tragedy, but the ultimate responsibility rests with the owners/managers of the mine who profited from the mine and were most likely in full knowledge of its dangers.
Rather than being responsible, moral human beings and shutting down the mine and correcting the mistakes that had been identified previously, they chose to put their workers’ lives in danger with disastrous results…
January 6th, 2006 at 5:18 pm“Federal agencies should always trump local.”
I love this leftist nanny state dogma. Like I said, the Left is SO predictable.
Look, you can amend the U.S. Constitution through the amendment process, but until then we still have something called federalism in this country. In most areas of economic activity the federal government does not have primary authority over the states, and even then the power to regulate interstate commerce is given to Congress, not the President (please read, for example, the Commerce Clause and Justice Jackson’s opinion in the Steel Seizure cases). So unless Congress passes legislation that mandates the wholesale automatic closure of coal mines with specified records of specified violations, such decisions will be made, at the inspection level, and at the discretion of the inspector. The President isn’t even remotely involved in this process, no matter what his party affiliation might be.
In case no one noticed, the job of these inspectors is not to close mines; it is to work with the owners so that mines can stay open and (a) provide jobs, and (b) produce energy. That does not mean it is “ok for a company to kill workers.” And it also doesn’t mean that the government is responsible for any accidents that happen. It just means that there will be government oversight – not perfection, and not guaranteed safety. It will ALWAYS be dangerous to work underground.
January 6th, 2006 at 5:24 pmBSR,
We already passed that regulation, it’s republicans who refuse to fund or ensure its enforcement. I think you’ve confused guarantees with competence, that’s common among republicans. Perhaps you missed the rest of the thread that thoroughly described this. I’ll chalk it up to partisan laziness, and forgive you of you and the republican ignorance on this matter. I know you permit yourselves to ignore facts, but I understand it stems from your fear of reality. Consider yourself confessed and forgiven of your sins today.
January 6th, 2006 at 5:33 pmAnd Blue State Red,
If you want a guarantee, call for funding of alternative energy options so we don’t have to mine coal anymore. That’s how you get a guarantee on coal mine safety, and completely dismantle the middle east fiasco in one fell swoop.
That’s not too hard to understand is it? I never know with republicans, you guys can be pretty stubborn and slow to understand ‘facts’.
January 6th, 2006 at 5:35 pmThe problem with any regulations,particularly about inherently dangerous places like coal mines is that the miners also have to observe the rules,too. The Southmountain mine explosion in 1992 killed because a miner flicked his Bic to light a cigarette underground. The initial methane flare up caused coal dust to explode which set off a 600 mph fireball. The regulations alone can’t achieve the stated goal. All parties have their role and at times the existence of federal regs can have the effect of making others complacent in their roles.
January 6th, 2006 at 5:43 pmCalifornia is leading the way on this issue. A new technique has been developed to convert farm waste into ethanol that can burn in regular cars (85% ethanol / 15% gas). Farm waste is part of the current carbon mix on the planet, and doesn’t release fossilized greenhouse gas. This makes it a better ecological choice, and a better political choice.
http://www.energy.ca.gov/reports/1999-12-22_500-99-022.html
You’ll notice that it was Clinton who started this process – no surprise – but it’s that pesky and unpredictable ‘republican’ Schwartzie that’s finishing it.
The E85 blend just went into statewide trials in California, and the blend is already available nationally and sporadically. Most cars can actually run up to 90% ethanol, and the average price of E85 ethanol-gas mix is about $1.65 in most of the country.
That’s right folks. An environmentally friendly choice that’s already cheaper than foreign oil!
So why isn’t this president trumpeting this ecological and economic choice? Why, because it isn’t big oil that benefits.
January 6th, 2006 at 5:49 pmTJM,
Complacency is what you get when there are no regulations – that’s why the law was created in the first place. Complacency occurs when there’s no enforcement of rules, and no sufficient consequences for actions that violate the rules. The other issue is the non-union mines which often have far more safety violations than their union counterparts. Anti-unionism is one of the big issues that has always plagued mines and mine safety. Without strong unions and strong enforced regulations, companies will always be complacent in their lack of safety – and that’s the real threat of complacency. Your complacency argument is anecdotal, and doesn’t hold up under scrutiny, but I can see how it would be convenient to hold such a simplified view of things.
January 6th, 2006 at 5:53 pmRP,
January 6th, 2006 at 6:17 pmRead very slowly. The state has the authority to approve and revoke the permit.
Right Punch, if you were to look at the rate of fatal injuries from 1900 on,what you would see that the creation of the Bureau of Mines in 1910,which was an information only agency led directly to a steady decrease in mine and coal mine fatalities. The Cato Institute did a study in 2002 in conjunction with Congressional hearings that contained several charts that showed that the passage of the Coal Act in 1969 and the creation of the MSHA in 1977 (I think) actually slowed the rate of improvement. The real test is the fatality rate based on tons produced which takes into account productivity (they also showed the fatality rate based on hours worked) regulation alone,whether enforced or not, will not bring the rate to zero. But the producers have an economic incentive to produce without injuries.
January 6th, 2006 at 6:32 pmFrankly,I think you’re wrong. The anecdote holds up very well to scrutiny since it has the added benefit of being true.
You should also try to cut back on the use of “often have” ( no supporting data) “always been a big issue” again lack of data,and without strong unions,etc,etc,. You will have to explain the constant decline in coal mine fatalities from the 1910 creation of the Bureau of mines and the 1969 Coal Act. When you have assembled some supporting data let me know and we can discuss it.
Ends up the Sago Coal Mine was NOT ventilated properly to remove gas buildup! The miners who escaped before the explosion said the gas fumes were too deadly to labor in!
January 6th, 2006 at 6:45 pmIf they had canary birds in there, they would have died weeks ago! The mine owners should be prosecuted for negligence and sued for every last dollar they possess!
I used to be a manager in what was basically a programming (actually microcode) group at a company that manufactured Itty Bitty Machines. I was required to submit a report to OSHA twice yearly that stated that the keyboards that were used in the process were compliant with their standards for repetitive stress syndrome. Is death of less importance?
January 6th, 2006 at 9:36 pmW Virginians voted for this clown we have for a presdunce. Good thing they protected themselves from gays getting married.
January 7th, 2006 at 12:00 amRight Punch: according to the MSHA web site your fatality statistics are a little off. In 1977,the number of coal related fatalities was 139. In 1969,when the Coal Act passed fatalities were 203 but in 1970 (that would be the year after the law was passed) fatalities were 260. Regardless of what you may think of it,not that you’re biased or anything,Cato is another data point.The studies aren’t gospel,they’re food for thought. Apparently,though,you seem to be under the illusion that if it didn’t come with an imprimatur from an “acceptable” source,it must not be worthwhile. How is that different from a religious type who will only accept information that has been blessed.
January 7th, 2006 at 5:49 amRP,we’re talking about coal related fatalities. In 1969,there were 203 deaths among 133,302 miners(0.15%).In 1977,there were 139 deaths among 237,506(0.05%).In 1948,there were 999 fatalities among 507,333 miners (0.19%)
Your figures for mining deaths,at least for coal are wildly wrong,wrong,wrong.
You can dissemble,or you can try to have a discussion,but for a member of the “reality-based community”,you shouldn’t just use fake facts. You wail about Republicans who spin and lie,then turn around and do the same thing yourself.What’s up with that?
Oh,and by the way, your inference that I support no regulation is something else YOU made up. Nowhere in any of my comments have I said that. You drew an inference once again without any supporting data. Not surprising any longer,is it?
Right Punch,after reviewing again the fatality data, it seems that for 1977,you looked to the left of the year and for 2004 you looked to the right of the year. Next time you want to use data to support your position, you might want to pause and ask if you have read the chart correctly. See how easy reality is?
January 7th, 2006 at 6:06 amAnd it also doesn’t mean that the government is responsible for any accidents that happen. It just means that there will be government oversight – not perfection, and not guaranteed safety. It will ALWAYS be dangerous to work underground.
Comment by Blue State Red
Hey Stupid State inbRed,
If the government requires that average everyday homeowners can’t sell their homes with minor safety violations, how do you think the corporate pirates managed to unload that deathtrap mine (at least four times in recent years) with upwards of 200 safety violations?
You’re so stupid you’d make watching grass wither a national sport…
January 7th, 2006 at 12:46 pmBig papa,
January 7th, 2006 at 4:26 pmThe state of west virginia issued and renewed the permit, idjut. The state OSMRE could have denied or revoked the permit if they thought it was a death trap.
It’s frustrating, because working people are the ones suffering most under Bush, with regards to worker safety, environment illnesses, tax and bankruptcy laws, poor pay due to outsourcing and lack of a reasonable minimum wage, the tearing away of the safety net and even the losing the possibility retiring altogether, yet many seem to support him.
It’s awful, but I guess it takes things like this and Katrina for people to realize that Bush is no friend to them.
January 8th, 2006 at 6:13 amGive em 24 hours before they start blaming Clinton?
January 8th, 2006 at 1:46 pmThe state of west virginia issued and renewed the permit, idjut. The state OSMRE could have denied or revoked the permit if they thought it was a death trap.
Comment by Wang Dang Sweet Woo-ha #107
Sloping Forehead Dung Heap Whoa-sh*t,
Federal regulation supercedes state in all matters including those of commerce…
Bushites hate regulating business (safety regulations especially) and have severely weakened/hampered state/federal OSHA regulatory agencies and laws…
Tell those 12 dead miners’ families that it WASN”T a deathtrap…
…and your point was?
January 8th, 2006 at 2:14 pmRead very slowly. The federal government did not issue or renew the Sago Mine permit. That is the responsibility of the state of West Virginia. The state DEP inspected the Sago Mine on Dec 1 and chose not revoke the permit for state and federal violations. But you’re not stupid, you already knew that, right?
January 8th, 2006 at 5:35 pmIt’s awful, but I guess it takes things like this and Katrina for people to realize that Bush is no friend to them.
Comment by Bush Bites #107
Hey have you read posts 106 and 110?
Some people don’t realize sh*t!!!
January 9th, 2006 at 9:27 amRead very slowly. The federal government did not issue or renew the Sago Mine permit. That is the responsibility of the state of West Virginia. The state DEP inspected the Sago Mine on Dec 1 and chose not revoke the permit for state and federal violations. But you’re not stupid, you already knew that, right?
Comment by Wang Dang Sweet Woo-ha #110
Sloping Forehead Dung Heap Whoa-sh*t,
I don’t care who issued the permit, my point is that the republiscum, pro-corporate government (local, state, and fed) doesn’t care about worker safety, won’t enforce existing regulations and is in fact undermining both!
You get an interpreter or your parents to explain this to you…
January 9th, 2006 at 9:30 amTJM,
You’re correct I read the chart incorrectly, however it doesn’t change the fact that fatalities did lower because of the laws, which is the opposite of the claims that Steed raised. You didn’t disprove my point, you only showed that I’d posted data from the wrong date. In fact if you consider that the death rates dropped even further after the 1977 date, and significantly, you’d have to be honest that my conclusion was correct, and the ’studies’ from the Cato institute were bogus lies as usual. Yet that would require that you have intellectual honesty, which is clearly not within the normal capacity of the republican spin machine. I admit that I posted the wrong number from the wrong date, but it didn’t invalidate the conclusion that the law made a difference.
January 11th, 2006 at 8:15 pmCitizens form group to protect miners
Sago Outrage is a maillist, gathering supporters. We plan to put the issue of the safety of coal miners, and by extension the safety of all working people, on the national agenda.
Here’s the first message, an overview of the Sago disaster:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sago_outrage/message/1
If you’re concerned that there’s no justice for coal miners, please join Sago Outrage:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sago_outrage/
Thanks!
richard myers
Moderator, Sago Outrage
Denver, Colorado
rtmyers@h2net.net
January 25th, 2006 at 6:45 pm