Former NSA Director Hayden Lied To Congress And Broke The Law
Former NSA Director Hayden Lied To Congress And Broke The Law
[Our guest blogger, Morton Halperin, was Director of Policy Planning Staff at the State Department and served on the National Security Council under President Clinton. He also served as Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense under President Johnson.]
The Bush administration has pulled out all the stops in attempting to defend the NSA’s warrantless domestic spying program. After speeches by President Bush and Attorney General Gonzales, Deputy Director of National Intelligence and former NSA Director General Michael Hayden took another crack at the defense in a speech on Monday. He’s not exactly the ideal choice to restore the administration’s credibility.
As Think Progress documented back in December, Hayden misled Congress. In his 10/17/02 testimony, he told a committee investigating the 9/11 attacks that any surveillance of persons in the United States was done consistent with FISA.
At the time of his statements, Hayden was fully aware of the presidential order to conduct warrantless domestic spying issued the previous year. But Hayden didn’t feel as though he needed to share that with Congress. Apparently, Hayden believed that he had been legally authorized to conduct the surveillance, but told Congress that he had no authority to do exactly what he was doing. The Fraud and False Statements statute (18 U.S.C. 1001) make Hayden’s misleading statements to Congress illegal.
Hayden’s fate lies with the tale of another spymaster, Nixon-era CIA Director Richard Helms.
Testifying under oath before a hearing of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1973, Richard Helms claimed that CIA was not involved in attempts to overthrow Salvador Allende of Chile:
SEN. SYMINGTON: Did you try in the Central Intelligence agency to overthrow the government of Chile?
MR. HELMS: No, sir.
SEN. SYMINGTON: Did you have any money passed to the opponents of Allende?
MR. HELMS: No, sir.
By the time Helms was called to testify again, CIA activities in Chile had become public knowledge. In 1977, Richard Helms pleaded no contest to charges of lying to Congress and served a suspended sentence.
Four years passed between Richard Helms’ false testimony before Congress and his guilty plea. Hayden’s congressional lying occurred in 2002. It’s now four years later. Time to fess up, General.
– Morton H. Halperin and Michael Fuchs
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IMpeach them all and then put them in jail without the help of the House Judiciary Committee.
http://constantpated.blogspot.com/
January 26th, 2006 at 12:43 pmFor Senate hearing transcripts on the 2002 Dewine FISA proposals and the latest NSA scandal news and documents, see:
January 26th, 2006 at 12:47 pm“The NSA Scandal Resources.”
This is how governments fall.
Unlike Nixon, though, BushCo appear to be holding on to power with both hands tightly. The teflon coating that surrounds BushCo must be burned off, the truth revealed, understood, and appropriate action taken against ALL parties involved.
Impeach Bush NOW! And prepare his entire team for transfer to the Hague to stand trial.
January 26th, 2006 at 12:49 pmMichael Hayden:
if Osama bin Laden crossed the bridge from Niagara Falls, Ontario, to Niagara Falls, New York, U.S. law would give him certain protections that I would have to accommodate in the conduct of my mission.
What say you wingnuts? Michael Hayden soft on terror…
January 26th, 2006 at 12:51 pmGeneral Hayden should also face disciplinary action under the UCMJ. He violated the oath he took when he joined the military. His oath said that he would “support and defend the Constitution” and that he would “obey the lawful orders of those appointed over” him.
His comments the other day, in which he claimed that “probable cause” was not the standard called for by the Fourth Amendment, would seem to indicate an alarming lack of familiarity of the document he took an oath to support and defend. One might forgive that in a first term enlisted person, but a general of several years experience should know better.
He should also have been aware that military people are not required to obey unlawful orders. He should have refused, therefore, to conduct the illegal spying that he did. Following an illegal order just because it was an order is not a defense.
Congress should strip General Hayden of his commission and retirement benefits.
January 26th, 2006 at 12:55 pm#5 or give him his own show on Fox….
January 26th, 2006 at 12:57 pm#6 TtT. Good one. LOL. It would not surprise me a bit to see him land there. But I think they’ll only use him if he’s willing to attack anybody who says the president isn’t as truthful as he would like us to believe. If he seems unwilling to attack non-supporters of the president, then I imagine they would stop using him. After all, he wouldn’t suit their purposes.
January 26th, 2006 at 1:00 pm#’s 5,6
January 26th, 2006 at 1:02 pmHeck, make him a Defense Lobbyist….
perhaps a cushy position @ Halliburton…?
I’ll take him – he can have my spot when the Rapture comes.
January 26th, 2006 at 1:03 pm#6
Fox News is drifting to the left. That soft on terror Hayden will fit right in with that looney leftist O’Reilly.
/sarcasm off
January 26th, 2006 at 1:04 pmAnother one for the pardon list.
January 26th, 2006 at 1:04 pmGeneral Hayden, it is my duty to inform you, your pants are on fire.
(paraphrasing the great Jon Stewart)
January 26th, 2006 at 1:09 pmWhy don’t we just get him a spot on one of those Japanese game shows where they stick a pork chop on his head and let a komodo dragon charge him.
But seriously (no, I wasn’t serious then), I hope the MSM keeps close track of General Hayden’s career from this point forward. This thread shows a reasonable suggestion that he may have broken the law. A court martial is in order and if he’s found guilty, the sentence should be made public.
January 26th, 2006 at 1:09 pmHamas wins control of Palestinian government.
76 seats, not just 70.
Comments? Questions? Foreign policy? (What foreign policy?)
Freedumb on the march? Dumbocracy as an export?
January 26th, 2006 at 1:12 pmThere is a reason Capt. Kirk, (Ed Morrisey at The Cabin Boy’s Quarters is a big trekkie, I’m not) and the federation had a non-interference policy, even in the 25th century, even with phasers warp drives and stuff…
January 26th, 2006 at 1:16 pmHe doesn’t have a clue what the Fourth Amendment says. How could he possibly know about the laws forbidding lying to congress.
Cut the guy some slack……..
January 26th, 2006 at 1:17 pm#14 good thread lead, TP. 3GS, this covers the wider phenomenon:
As in Latin America, the US can’t stand democracy when it produces a result hostile to its interests. Its been that way since 1953, through Iran, Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Bolivia and now Palestine, Egypt, Turkey (remember Wolfy calling for the military to take over in 2003 because the Turkish parliament wouldn’t let him use his toys).
Earth to USA – you had better start working out how to deal with Islamic democracy whatever form it takes….
January 26th, 2006 at 1:18 pmGeneral Hayden is the IDIOT who on Tuesday said over and over that the words Probable Cause DO NOT appear in the 4th Ammendment.
Why do I call him an IDIOT?
Cause the 4th Ammendment of our Constitution is only 54 WORDS LONG. The words PROBABLE CAUSE are number 32 and 33.
And the 4th Ammendment is part of our BILL OF RIGHTS!
Every 5th grader knows this.
How could the man in charge of a national security program have NO CLUE as to the laws which regulate his very actions?
Unfreakinbelievable!
January 26th, 2006 at 1:19 pmAnd don’t anyone tell me he didn’t.
I watched it twice, and he was YELLING at the reporter, insisting that NOWHERE in the 4th Ammendment do the words PROBABLE CAUSE appear.
It was unbelievable. Totally unbelievable.
January 26th, 2006 at 1:23 pmWorfeus, I have a bumper sticker on my car with the 4th amendment. Maybe I should buy General Hayden one for his vehicle?
January 26th, 2006 at 1:26 pmSo the latest schizzie comment from republican partisans (aka bush) is that the terrorist victory in palestine is ‘democracy in action’, yet he slams Chavez in Venezuela who has won 2 democratic elections as being ‘undemocratic’. Clearly the partisan brain is engaged and reason has left the building. Poor things.
January 26th, 2006 at 1:28 pm#20 – Please do, Jane, but I’m not sure Hayden’s able to read.
January 26th, 2006 at 1:32 pmWell, it’s not like Hayden lied about an important issue like consensual sex or anything. So quit picking on the poor bald man.
January 26th, 2006 at 1:42 pmIf Mr. Halperin knows this, don’t Democratic members of Congress?
If so, why aren’t they going after Hayden?
January 26th, 2006 at 1:42 pmConvicting Hayden now is impossible, exposing the serious flaw in the Federal separation of powers. Who would bring the charges? The Attorney General, who worked with the NSA director for Bush? AG Gonzales is also complicit in the crime.
Helms was convicted 4 years later, under a different administration (Carter). The separation of powers therefore relies on presidential politics to bring executive criminals to justice. Watergate exposed the failure of that limited separation, allowing President Nixon to fire “independent” Watergate prosecutors. This even more obscure crime is clearly protected by that same flawed system.
We need to make prosecutors who work for Congress, not just the president, so we can prosecute presidents like Nixon. Or prosecute presidents’ bagmen, like Hayden and Gonzales. Even though the House of Representatives might be controlled by a rubber stamp chorus, that entire body is up for firing every 2-year election cycle.
January 26th, 2006 at 1:44 pm#4 I bet any policeman in this country would jump at the chance to read Osama his rights.
Or if he crosses that bridge, would the wingnuts argue we should just call in air strikes and be satisfied with any collateral damage?
January 26th, 2006 at 1:45 pmFirst Michael Brown, and now Michael Hayden.
Dumb and Dumber.
January 26th, 2006 at 1:46 pmDemocracy is untidy.
Would you want to live in a democracy made up entirely of people who donate to the 700 Club? Not that it would be recognizable as such, a democracy. The founders knew this. They had read about the Athenians’ experiences with democracy. The truth is that the right wing has never been comfortable with democracy, unless it can be made to produce results in line with their agenda.
January 26th, 2006 at 1:49 pmI think an investigation into UTTER INCOMPETENCE is now fully warranted.
Think about it. We have the NSA General in charge of the warrantless spying program, ON CAMERA, denying the 4th Ammendment requires a Probable Cause!
Its over!
What further proof do we need of either unprecedented incompetence or unprecedented violations of our civil rights?
The President is a criminal at this point.
So is his entire staff.
Is he a King, above the law?
January 26th, 2006 at 1:50 pmSome criticism of the Athenian democracy, for background…
January 26th, 2006 at 1:52 pmSorry, but I just can’t get past this mans screaming at a reporter telling him there is no Probable Cause in the 4th.
I just can’t believe that news clip is not on the Evening News!
What gives?
Why isn’t every news channel in America playing this over and over?
Does the right really control our press this much?
January 26th, 2006 at 1:53 pm#27. I’d keep them separate…
Michael Brown – utter f*ckwit.
Michael Hayden – willing collaborator.
#26. If we know Osama is in NY State, the Bushies’ answer will be to invade Massachusetts.
January 26th, 2006 at 1:54 pmI wonder why the wing-nuts and trolls haven’t claimed that this is all because Pres. Clinton had sex?
January 26th, 2006 at 1:59 pmOr that it’s all because of the liberals?
Or maybe terrorists are using mind control to make Deputy Director Hayden tell lies?
It doesn’t do our side ANY good, sorry, to be talking about Allende.
January 26th, 2006 at 2:00 pm“Spoof The Spooks!â€
Northeast Ohio Anti-War Coalition Organizing “Spy-In†At Federal Building: NOAC Spy-In
January 30, 2006; 7:30 a.m.
Federal Building, 1240 East 9th Street, Downtown Cleveland
You’ve heard of sit-ins, sleep-ins, and die-ins. Well, now you are invited to do your patriotic duty and join us for a “spy-in.”
The Feds (specifically the Department of Defense) in November, 2004 spied on the Northeast Ohio Anti-War Coalition (NOAC).
Now it’s time we spied back!! Dress in spy gear (trench coats, black suits/fedoras, sunglasses, etc.) Bring toy cameras, notepads, binoculars, magnifying glasses, telescopes.
Why aren’t the Feds investigating their own: those who lied about going into Iraq, those who say they don’t need to get approval from anyone to spy on U.S. citizens, those taking illegal campaign “contributions” from lobbyists??
Why can’t we sit in on THEIR planning meetings, THEIR discussions, take pictures of THEM going in and out of the Federal Building; after all, they are paid with our tax dollars and are ultimately accountable to US?
Is this action ridiculous?
Sure it is!
But, so is the Pentagon spying on citizens and groups (not to mention illegal) who have no history of violence or threats to anyone. Our intent is to spoof the spooks!
For more information: 216-736-4176
January 26th, 2006 at 2:02 pmWell they say its to protect us.
But muse on this.
protect us from what?
In the last 10 years we have lost a little less than 4000 US citizens to terrorist attacks.
In that same time period we have lost close to quarter of a MILLION to Alcohol related traffic fatalities.
A QUARTER OF A MILLION!
In fact, last year an American DIED from a drunk driver every 31 MINUTES!
That sounds like a clear and present danger to me.
So if we only lost 4000 to terrorists per decade, and quarter of a Million to Drunk Drivers, why are we still sellin BOOZE???
Why?
Sure, you want your freedom to drink, but what if I told you by giving up your rights to enjoy an Ice Cold Molson, that you would save 250,000 AMERICAN LIVES???
Wouldn’t you want to outlaw Alcohol to save so many American lives?
If the TRUE purpose of infringing on our rights to privacy is to protect American lives, then surely as soon as the President hears the stats on Alchohol, he will immediately announce his new War On Booze.
Right?
Hmmmmmm
January 26th, 2006 at 2:15 pmAmericans won’t even give up their rights to get drunk to save a Quarter of a Million Americans, but they will gladly give up our Constitutional rights to privacy to possibly prevent an attack that may hurt some of us, some day down the road.
Booze is killing now, and killing for sure.
31 People a day.
January 26th, 2006 at 2:18 pmIt doesn’t do our side ANY good, sorry, to be talking about Allende.
Comment by John Henry Could Hammer
Our side? Whose side are you referring to? You are looking for the great white whale, Capt. Ahab. You just have a problem with democracy, I guess, if it prefers socialism over your “ideas” and socialism is just an idea, a theory, a political economy like “capitalism”.
Salvador Allende
January 26th, 2006 at 2:19 pm
January 26th, 2006 at 2:19 pmWhat’s wrong with this picture?
#34… Why?
January 26th, 2006 at 2:20 pmWhat picture? Oh well.
January 26th, 2006 at 2:20 pmAnd booze ain’t the only threat to the safety of Americans.
More Americans were killed by guns than by war in the 20th Century.
More Americans were killed with guns in the 18-year period between 1979 and 1997 (651,697), than were killed in battle in all wars since 1775 (650,858).
Center for Disease Control Press Release (CDC) 12/30/99
Funny, Guns are still legal.
In fact, those in support of the war also are normally the ones opposing tighter handgun controls and legislation.
If they are soooo concerned with the safety of us poor little American citizens, then surely they would start with outlawing all guns, wouldn’t they?
That would save more lives than were lost in ALL WARS since 1775!
Holy crap.
That would make us safer. :|
SO WHY DON’T WE?
Isn’t their primary concern to protect American lives?.
HMMMM….
January 26th, 2006 at 2:21 pmPardon me while I wet my pants over ideas like “socialized medicine” and “gay marriage”. They will be the end of life as we know it! Whaaaaaaa!
January 26th, 2006 at 2:22 pmDoes that make sense to anyone?
January 26th, 2006 at 2:22 pm#26. If we know Osama is in NY State, the Bushies’ answer will be to invade Massachusetts.
Comment by Dumb Fox — January 26, 2006 @ 1:54 pm
More like Arizona……
January 26th, 2006 at 2:23 pm#34… Why?
Comment by Dumb Fox
He was just a right wing troll…
January 26th, 2006 at 2:24 pmGay marriage will make us all gay and destroy the family…
Socialized medicine will make us all slaves dying in the streets…. blah blah blah …. wingnut drivel….
January 26th, 2006 at 2:26 pmParanoid wingnut drivel… everything frightens them if they are told to fear it…. Boo! I’m a liberal!
January 26th, 2006 at 2:27 pmYou might could send the general one of these. It has all the first ten amendments in one easy ready-to-wear format.
January 26th, 2006 at 2:28 pm#26. If we know Osama is in NY State, the Bushies’ answer will be to invade Massachusetts.
Comment by Dumb Fox — January 26, 2006 @ 1:54 pm
More like Arizona……
Comment by Wayne
Right! No… Massachussetts. It will be a blue state, you can be sure of that. Massachussetts.
January 26th, 2006 at 2:29 pmWorfeus, I know what your saying. You could add smoking to alcohol and guns as things that kill but are controllable and accepted.
I saw some footage of the Palistinian elections and each shot, or rather, image had men and young boys firing machine guns and hand guns into the air. And for what? Celebrating?
January 26th, 2006 at 2:32 pmMy position on guns and control is simple, it swhould be left up to the individual states and municipalities. Urban areas, because of the population density in such places, should have some leeway in controlling weapon ownership, but I am not in favor of bans on weapons outright, anymore than I am in favor of these shoot first laws and ask questions later in the streets. Wyatt Earp was a proponent of gun control and he weren’t no liberal.
January 26th, 2006 at 2:34 pmIf the left wants to keep losing elections, it can keep hitching it’s wagon to nags like federal bans on guns. Back in the 80s FBI stats found that you were 4 times more likely to die in an accident on the job than be a victim of random violence. I bet that stat has remained constant and even gotten worse under this Admin, after getting better under Clinton. But what do Americans fear, guns and drunk drivers. Why? See if you can figure it out. I’ll give you a hint. Business and money.
January 26th, 2006 at 2:38 pmMy point is that if you are an American worker today, (like a coal miner, maybe), drunk drivers, alcohol abuse, terrorism and criminals with guns are probably not gonna be what does you in, got it?
January 26th, 2006 at 2:40 pmUnless, of course, you are a white woman from a red state, then your biggest fear is dissappearing or being eaten by a shark.
January 26th, 2006 at 2:41 pmI hereby declare the entire White House staff and the executive branch “Enemy Combatants”. I demand their arrest and imprisonment without atorney or trial now.
According to the Constitution, I have as much right to do this as the shrub. (funny no matter where I look it isn’t in there, so what is not there must be legal or they would have said so…?)
January 26th, 2006 at 2:44 pmDon’t get me wrong people. I am not really talking about gun control, alcohol prohibition or anything of the sort.
I am saying that these things are things we CAN control, and by giving up a few little freedoms, we could save so many more Americans than we have ever lost from terrorists.
But we don’t and we won’t.
Americans would not give up their right to get drunk and discharge firearms to save half a Million American lives, but they’d gladly give up their Constitutional rights to privacy provided for in the 4th Ammendment if they thought it may one day some how in some way keep some Americans somewhere somehow safe from some sort of terrorist attack.
It makes my head hurt. :|
January 26th, 2006 at 2:45 pmI saw some footage of the Palistinian elections and each shot, or rather, image had men and young boys firing machine guns and hand guns into the air. And for what? Celebrating?
Comment by Bob Loblaw
Like I said, Wyatt Earp.
And have you ever been to Texas?
It looks strange to you now, but it was common here before it was common there.
January 26th, 2006 at 2:45 pmAmericans have this anal retentive thing about death and safety. They have no problem electing governments that allow the kind of shit that leads to workplace deaths, but when it happens they get all excited. Death is a part of life. Shit happens. And I recall my Soc professor in college showing us newspaper clipping at the library from around the turn of the century, (1900, not 2000) relating horrible stories about acts of murder and mayhen commited by children as young as 12, yet today we lament how awfullly violent the youth is and pine for the “good old days”. There were no “good old days”. Ever. Save for your youth when you grew up in the safety and comfort of your parents love, and they, your parents, grew up in the safety and comfort of your grandparents love and care. Back then, in the 1900s, we didn’t have 24/7 cable news channels broadcasting the crap all over the world. That’s the major difference. Complete safety is an illusion that Americans live with, much like the total fear they live with about everything. In Canada, not every person feels the need to have a gun, or even lock their front door.
January 26th, 2006 at 2:53 pmI guess Soros pulled out his checkbook again. I had no idea Think Communist could boast of such a high profile and tenured member of the Filthy Left on it’s staff of Ratbastardcommies. Oh well, better here than directing the political spin of ABC news…You know who they are don’t you losers? Mainstream media controlled by the Right Wing Agenda and mouthpiece for Bushy?
Wow, I’m impressed. Welcome to the board Mort. Grab a handle and dive on in. I’d really love to hear about your Nixon years when you were working for Kissinger.
January 26th, 2006 at 2:56 pmWell said G. Gordon.
Thats the problem. How are they selling this crap about keeping us so safe?
When did the republican base turn into such a bunch of sissies?
The truth is people don’t vote for safety.
But they do vote for revenge.
And after 911 the rednecks and trailer park scum, and upwardly mobile young republicans wanted revenge.
Revenge on Arabs.
So they elected a President, and now support a President, who is willing to kill lots of Arabs.
And thats the TRUTH.
:P
January 26th, 2006 at 2:58 pmMy point is that if you are an American worker today, (like a coal miner, maybe), drunk drivers, alcohol abuse, terrorism and criminals with guns are probably not gonna be what does you in, got it?”
Ha, yes, we need better policies for workers, but what is stupid is relying on government to do your bidding. Better to use a non-hierarchical organized union.
January 26th, 2006 at 3:01 pmWorfeus,
Alcohol kills more people than pot. Which is legal? Which has a lobby as big as MADD’s? MADD has actually been hijacked by the prohibitionists. Prohibitionists, you say? Yes. The oldest, longest running third political party in existence in America.
Candy Leightner, the founder of MADD left MADD because of that hijacking, (she says). They say she left for money. She is now a lobbyist for the liquor lobby, or was. I don’t know, and I don’t care. I’m a social libertarian (an anarcho-syndicalist). As long as i’m not harming anyone else, leave me the fvck alone. I don’t trust any of them. MADD, The NRA and gun lobby, the gun control nuts, or Ted Nugent.
January 26th, 2006 at 3:09 pmHa, yes, we need better policies for workers, but what is stupid is relying on government to do your bidding. Better to use a non-hierarchical organized union.
Comment by Crazy Anarcho-Syndicalist
Ha! I didn’t see that until after I posted!
Yo, bro!
January 26th, 2006 at 3:10 pmThink left-libertarian.
Anarcho-syndicalism
January 26th, 2006 at 3:12 pmI’m actually more of a Georgist, as in Henry George, because some influential people on the right are more accepting of his ideas, anarcho-syndicalism is to Marxist for their tastes…
I’m in the school of Cooperative Individualism
January 26th, 2006 at 3:16 pm10- Some of the comments are hilarious, if not completely, ignorantly, insane. Pox News is too liberal. Kinda like smashing rocks together expecting that eventually you’ll end up with a silicon chip.
January 26th, 2006 at 3:17 pmWorfeus,
The people think laws will make them safe. Regulations, if enforced, might have saved miner’s lives. Will outlawing guns make you safe? It will make you rich if you dig a tunnel and smuggle them in from Mexico. People will just have to pay more for them, but they will get them. Period. When has prohibition ever worked? It just makes crooks rich.
January 26th, 2006 at 3:21 pmDavid,
Olbermann did that piece as Worst Person In The World last night. Hilarious.
January 26th, 2006 at 3:22 pmIRI,
What do you think of this?
January 26th, 2006 at 3:24 pmIf we know Osama is in NY State, the Bushies’ answer will be to invade Massachusetts.
Makes about as much sense as invading Iraq in response to 9.11.
January 26th, 2006 at 3:25 pmGordo,
Agreed.
That has been my point all along.
This thread is about the spying scandal. Bush tells us he must spy on us to keep us safe.
The entire right wing, and part of the left has said, Ok, go ahead and spy on us and take whatever liberties away you need to in order to keep us safe.
I am trying to illuminate the HUBRIS of this keeping us safe argument, cause in case no one has checked, it’s the last arrow in the right wings quiver for supporting their illegal actions, that is, keeping us safe.
When we demonstrate the fallacy of this argument, and illuminate the fact that keeping us safe by taking away our Constitutional liberites and encroaching on our privacy, all based on the loss of some 3000 + American lives, is a RED HERRING when compared to the deaths that happen to us every year because of luxuries like booze which kill so many more of us.
If their intent was to keep us safe, they would immediately declare a War on Booze and a War on Guns. All guns sales and ownership would become immediately illegal, as would beer and booze.
Then, in 10 short years, we would save 500,000 Americans from violent deaths!
But we don’t.
Why?
Because we are free, thats why.
And living free involves some RISK.
So if I am not going to be asked to give up booze, or my Glock, to save a certain HALF A MILLION people from violent deaths over the next decade, why would I be asked to give up my privacy to possibly save a few thousand somewhere, somehow, somtime in the future?
The argument is specious.
January 26th, 2006 at 3:33 pmLIVE FREE OR DIE!
January 26th, 2006 at 3:35 pmCandy Lightner
Ms. Lightner left MADD and disagrees with its change in goals. “It has become far more neo-prohibitionist than I ever wanted or envisioned,” she says. “I didn’t start MADD to deal with alcohol. I started MADD to deal with the issue of drunk driving.”
Drunks on the road are not a good idea.
Is the problem as big as we are made to believe?
No.
Fear and money.
January 26th, 2006 at 3:39 pmThis is the last arrow the republicans have in their quiver left to defend their illegal spying not to mention the War in Iraq.
Keeping us SAFE.
We need to attack that one thing. Focuse on demonstrating the fallacy of that position.
That is true Americans do NOT give up freedom for safety.
Cowards, Commies and Traitors do. But not true Patriots.
So. Attack that one argument and what do they have left?
NOTHING.
Destroy the fallacy of keeping us safe.
Recognize that less people die from terrorists attacks every year than from having a Nightcap!
If we can just get Americans to see the illogic in the Keeping America Safe argument, the Right WILL FOUNDER.
Guaranteed.
January 26th, 2006 at 3:41 pmTHE LAST ARROW!
January 26th, 2006 at 3:42 pmSHOOT IT DOWN!
January 26th, 2006 at 3:42 pmJust like the fear of “rampant communism”.
Unfounded.
Fear of terrorism!
It’s not complete hype, but are we all at risk? No. It’s part of the psychological engine that spurs a population to war when the real motive is something else entirely. Just my humble opinion.
It’s what Chomsky talked about years ago so they had to shut him out and up.
It’s what he called manufacturing consent.
January 26th, 2006 at 3:43 pmYou are correct Gordo.
Don’t forget the FACTS are on our side.
Less than 4000 Americans have been lost in the last 10 years to terrorist attacks.
We loose that many in just over a MONTH to handguns!
In fact, you have a better chance of having a Vending machine fall on you and kill you then being killed by a terroist.
So whats everyone so afraid of?
January 26th, 2006 at 3:47 pmWe are never going to be “safe” again. We never really were. We were just isolated by two oceans. We thought naval invasion was the threat. Technology changes all that. Terrorists didn’t invent and develop much of the technology that threatens us. We did.
January 26th, 2006 at 3:47 pmDeath has been around as long as life has been around.
We are all going to die.
“Sadly, we cannot all choose how we die.
But we can choose how we meet our ends.
So we can be remembered, as men”.
Proximo
How about we meet our deaths as FREE AMERICANS?
How does that sound to the rest of you?
January 26th, 2006 at 3:50 pmYeah, but we still can’t let guys fly planes into buildings. Bush does nothing to prevent this. His policies make it more likely that more people will want to try that kind of thing. He’s an idiot. His policies are the greatest tactical and strategic blunders in American history. Was it Brent Scowcroft or Gen. Odom or both who have said that?
January 26th, 2006 at 3:50 pmHow about we meet our deaths as FREE AMERICANS?
How does that sound to the rest of you?
Comment by WORFEUS
Patrick Henry
“Give me liberty or give me death.”
Or something a Palestinian or Iraqi suicide bomber might be thinking. The last thing that blows through his mind.
Bad joke.
January 26th, 2006 at 3:52 pmIRI,
What do you think of this?
Comment by G. Gordon Giddy
I’d say I couldn’t say it any better than this and those things the author points out have always been part of Murdock, he is a vulgar man and no conservative. What’s your point?
“Murdoch is not conservative in any true sense of the word, as evidenced by the fact that his Fox Entertainment division is responsible for some of the most vulgar, violent and indecent programming in television and film, and that his satellite division makes millions from pay-per-view porn. His news division does lean right, but this I believe has less to do with politics and more to do with business: “
January 26th, 2006 at 3:53 pmYeah, but we still can’t let guys fly planes into buildings
G. Gordon Giddy
Come on Gordo. Did you drink the Jesus Juice?
Of course we needed to take steps to strengthen our airlines after 911.
50,000 per airplane for bullet proof impregnable cockpit doors and that problem would have been solved.
We lost 3000 Americans that day.
Suppose it had been an accident?
Who would you be going after then?
Repeating administration talking points is why the left is so weak now.
We don’t have an epidemic of planes flying into buildings.
January 26th, 2006 at 3:55 pmAfter Oklahoma city we did not freak out, and take away Americans freedoms and liberites.
Sure we hardended some stuff, enacted some legislation, and we went after the guys who did it.
And we got him.
This War on Terror is a complete RED HERRING.
January 26th, 2006 at 3:57 pmbut we still can’t let guys fly planes into buildings”
Was it really terrorists?
January 26th, 2006 at 4:00 pm
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change++edition
January 26th, 2006 at 4:05 pmI sent this out using FAIR’s media contact page
January 26th, 2006 at 4:09 pm#26. If we know Osama is in NY State, the Bushies’ answer will be to invade Massachusetts.
Comment by Dumb Fox — January 26, 2006 @ 1:54 pm
More like Arizona……
Comment by Wayne — January 26, 2006 @ 2:23 pm
HEY! Don’t give Fredo any ideas.
Steve in Tucson
January 26th, 2006 at 4:14 pmGordo
I know you didn’t drink the Jesus Juice.
I was just kidding.
But my point is EVERYTIME we regurgitate another republican talking point, we strengthen their positions.
We need to stop saying things like, we have to keep America safe from terrorists, or we support the troops.
These things are a GIVEN!
But reiterating them only strengthens the rights use of these things to further thier ambitions.
When a repug asks me do I support the troops, do I say sure, I support the troops?
Nope.
Instead say SUPPORT THE TROOPS? Is it SUPPORTING THE TROOPS TO SEND THEM TO BE LIVE BAIT TO ROOT OUT AN INSURGENCY???
Give it back to them but give it back to them in spades.
James “kickurass” Carville and Paul Begala have a new book out called, Taking it Back.
Its about this very point.
The reason the right wins, is because the left constantly plays into their talking points.
I think every Democrat ought to read this one.
January 26th, 2006 at 4:20 pm#84 Murdoch is a vulgar man, but not because of the entertainment on Fox. He is vulgar because he will do anything for money including change the alegiance and tone of his news serivce for $$. Se ehow he regarded Tony Blair & His party prior to a private meeting with Blair. Overnight his empire changed their tone and timbre. Imagine what would happen to you and all the other wing nuts if they lost their pacifier?
January 26th, 2006 at 4:24 pmThe RIGHT has NOTHING left but the Keeping Us Safe argument.
So why are we talking about HEALTH CARE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!
Sure Americans care about that stuff. But they turn on the news to hear about WAR.
We need to attack the ONE argument the Right has left (pun not intended).
We need to ILLUMINATE, then DISMISS this KEEPING US SAFE concept.
Once middle America understands that keeping us safe is a RIDICULOUS argument, then the right will have nothing else to sell them.
And they’ll be through.
January 26th, 2006 at 4:28 pmI continue telling my story over and over hoping someone realizes that what we are seeing is the fight to take back our country from a Very Wide Spread Criminal Organization.
I was in a family for more than 26 years who joined Organized Crime but this isn’t any ordinary Organized Crime system my ex-wife’s family joined. The biggest part of this criminal system is FRAUD, ALL TYPES of FRAUD! There’s been more than enough in the news over more than a year to tell everyone that something is terribly wrong. However, you’ll need to look at this from a crows nest view meaning trying to see it as a big picture of ON-GOING FRAUD.
Frankly, this isn’t all of it either and if they continue to surface more, you’ll be astonished with what else exists. It also extends beyond our boarders into neighboring lands and overseas as well. It’s considered to be the Worlds Largest Organized Criminal System!
Again, I was in a family for more than 26 years who are part of this! In the Political Corruption System, their communication ability connects criminals from the lowest point all the way up to the highest point in our Political System. Also, you shouldn’t be surprised to know that the MOB is involved, just look at Abramoff and his Casino deal that ended up getting Gus Boulis murdered. But please realize that my experience in this crosses with Gus Boulis’s story! Yes, my ex-in-laws were greedily watching Boulis for years through their Criminal links here in Chicago. In the late 80’s, they wanted me to travel to Florida to meet Gus and look at his Sandwich business to start the same thing in the Chicago area. There’s many more parts of my story that crosses with others too.
Fellow Citizens, we are in trouble and something needs to be done. As Molly Ivins said some time ago, The Corruption is Eating Us Alive! But it gets worse because Political Corruption isn’t the only criminal system that’s part of this. There’s others and those are as worse as the Political Corruption.
Marty Didier
January 26th, 2006 at 4:33 pmNorthbrook, IL
Was it really terrorists?
Comment by Crazy Anarcho-Syndicalist — January 26, 2006 @ 4:00 pm
I think so.
But kinda like Katrina, I think that at least some of the administration knew about it, and while they may not have facilitated it, they turned away, and let it occur.
After all, 911 took a lame duck President with a 38 percent approval rating and falling, and turned him into an extremely popular WAR PRESIDENT, with an unprecedented 89 Percent Approval rating almost overnight.
One could easily argue that 911 was the most fortuitous event in Mr. Bushs Presidency to occur to this date.
January 26th, 2006 at 4:33 pmI just don’t think any of them expected it to be so bad.
January 26th, 2006 at 4:34 pmDeja’vu!! George(the other white meat)Bush has managed, once again to imitate his Daddy. Or should I say “ape”? Hayden is G., the lessers’, very own Ollie North! Golly! that is just SO amazing!! But it remains to be seen, whether he will go the distance here. So far, so good. I think I see a pardon in his future….We’ll see, I suppose.
January 26th, 2006 at 4:36 pmI don’t know what’s funnier, the fact that BushCo looks more and more incompetent every single day or that repug monkeys like I-RIGHT-I continue to defend them!
Hey IRI – it’s over, “Move On”
January 26th, 2006 at 4:36 pmI hope IRI doesn’t leave.
I hope he’s in here defending the crimes of this scum right up to the bitter end, as we all watch Bush climb onto MARINE 1 to leave in disgrace
Except flashing us the Peace sign as he leaves, Bush will probably just flip us the bird.
January 26th, 2006 at 4:47 pmI just want to hear what he has to say as the gavel pounds and they say WAR CRIMINALS, ALL OF YA!
I wanna hear him cry.
January 26th, 2006 at 4:47 pmThis War on Terror is a complete RED HERRING.
Comment by WORFEUS
You will have your red herring microwaved if too many of you losers don’t get with the program.
January 26th, 2006 at 4:48 pmHayden should be persecuted for lying before congress. Couple this with the Abramoff photos disapearances and you have a clear and simple case to the public that the president is both deishonest and knowinglt hiding his crimes.
January 26th, 2006 at 4:49 pm#84 Murdoch is a vulgar man, but not because of the entertainment on Fox. He is vulgar because he will do anything for money including change the alegiance and tone of his news serivce for $$.
Comment by Mark
You mean like GOOGLE? Oh wait, Fox has a spin GOOGLE just deletes anything that might upset the Progressive Chinese. Never mind.
January 26th, 2006 at 4:50 pmI hope IRI doesn’t leave.
Does he know I’m single?
Comment by WORFEUS
I hadn’t thought about it Worf.
January 26th, 2006 at 4:56 pmMurdoch’s Newscorp subsidiary Star TV practices ’self censorship’ by removing news shows from its programming since news might offend the Chinese. So Fox’s parent pussyfoots around the Chinese too, like Google, Microsoft…. What’s your point, Adolf?
January 26th, 2006 at 4:58 pmLet’s review. First, George W. lied to and misled Congress about Iraq with no consequences. Then, having nothing more important to attend to, committees were set up to hear from baseball players about steroids and they lied with no consequences. After that, oil executives got up before and, once again, lied. If the president can get away with it, what is going to stop anyone else from lying before Congress or the Senate? It all starts at the top.
January 26th, 2006 at 4:59 pmYou will have your red herring microwaved if too many of you losers don’t get with the program.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — January 26, 2006 @ 4:48 pm
Well, since its your Red Herring Einstein, I will be happy to set the power setting to High.
Bon Appetitte’
January 26th, 2006 at 4:59 pmI hope IRI doesn’t leave.
Does he know I’m single?
Comment by WORFEUS
I hadn’t thought about it Worf.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — January 26, 2006 @ 4:56 pm
LOL.
Once again the nimrod has ZERO responses so he invents words to attribtute to me so he can have a counter.
Are you really that Pathetic IRI? How about talking to the dozen posts I put up?
Or are you just the puss I know you are?
January 26th, 2006 at 5:03 pmBetter RUN IRI!
I think I see a terrorist coming!
RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!
January 26th, 2006 at 5:05 pmSissy.
January 26th, 2006 at 5:05 pmThe RIGHT has NOTHING left but the Keeping Us Safe argument.
So why are we talking about HEALTH CARE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!
Sure Americans care about that stuff. But they turn on the news to hear about WAR.
We need to attack the ONE argument the Right has left (pun not intended).
We need to ILLUMINATE, then DISMISS this KEEPING US SAFE concept.
Once middle America understands that keeping us safe is a RIDICULOUS argument for trading away our civil liberties, then the right will have nothing else to sell them.
And they’ll be through.
Little wusses like IRI are too busy handing Bush their rights like the SHEEP they are to care about America being Free.
Baaaaaaa
January 26th, 2006 at 5:08 pmHey I got an idea.
Maybe if we are successful in bringing Freedom and Democracy to Iraq, we can all move there if we want to be free.
We sure as hell are loosing our Democracy here thanks to the COWARDS like IRI.
January 26th, 2006 at 5:10 pmHey I-NIMROD-I
How come your dumbass Right Wing Bush appointed General at NSA in charge of the Domestic Spying program said over and over that the Constitution does not include the words Probable Cause???
How come?
Are all right wingers IDIOTS, MORONS and ILLITERATE CLODS like you and BOY GEORGE?
Explain to us all oh mighty defender of the Right, how could the guy in charge of a National Eavesdropping program on Americans be unfamiliar with the Constitutional Ammendments that govern such actions?
THERE IS YOUR TALKING POINT. IF YOUR SO RIGHT, ANSWERING THIS SHOULD BE EASY. RIGHT?
FETCH!
January 26th, 2006 at 5:14 pmTHATS YOUR CHALLENGE I-WISHIWERERIGHT-I.
Thats your challenge from WORFEUS.
Explain how the NSA Cheif in Charge of this Program, In charge of MAKING SURE AMERICANS RIGHTS WERE NOT VIOLATED, How could he NOT KNOW OUR OWN CONSTITUTIONAL AMMENDMENTS ON THE VERY SUBJECT!!!
Answer that and I will perhaps think more of you.
Doubt it.
But perhaps.
Whats your answer?
January 26th, 2006 at 5:16 pm#84 I have long held the belief that when politcal parties on eiother side of the aisle seem to be acting in concert across the board in an illegal fashion it is organized an systematic and probably subject to the RICO statutes. When we see that Delay in texas using Republican party vehicles moves money around to circumvent the law it is an isolated incident. But when the exact same thing has happened in other states it is a conspiracy. The DeLay money laundering has occured in Texas and Minnesota I believe (soemwhere up north definately though). Complicit in each deal have been out of state republican party organizations…somewhere there is a DA with balls enough to call this what it is…somewhere.
With Arthur Anderson they (AA) tried to sell the idea of a rougue partner and a out of control office. However when push comes to shove AA was doing the exact same activities in multiple offices. Beyond that anyone familiar with accounting firms knows that nothing happens independently, everything runs through national. Heck even the direction of wiping your ass is probably regulated, so the very thought of a rougue parter is as illusory as the notion of Bush telling the truth. Hence it was easy to prove that AA was involved in a conspiracy of sorts. SHould be easy for the feds to prove the republicans are involved in one also.
January 26th, 2006 at 5:19 pmTHATS YOUR CHALLENGE I-WISHIWERERIGHT-I.
Thats your challenge from WORFEUS.
Explain how the NSA Cheif in Charge of this Program, In charge of MAKING SURE AMERICANS RIGHTS WERE NOT VIOLATED, How could he NOT KNOW OUR OWN CONSTITUTIONAL AMMENDMENTS ON THE VERY SUBJECT!!!
Answer that and I will perhaps think more of you.
Whats your answer?
January 26th, 2006 at 5:24 pmExplain to us all oh mighty defender of the Right, how could the guy in charge of a National Eavesdropping program on Americans be unfamiliar with the Constitutional Ammendments that govern such actions?
THERE IS YOUR TALKING POINT. IF YOUR SO RIGHT, ANSWERING THIS SHOULD BE EASY. RIGHT?
January 26th, 2006 at 5:25 pmYou know, sometimes mee thinks that there are two types of Trolls. Those who are against us, and those who pretend to be with us.
Don’t give him an out people.
This Thread is about HAYDEN!
Not about obsure issues or esoteric concepts.
We need to drill down, hold their feet to the fire, and make them squeal!
This thread is about HAYDEN. Make him answer.
Explain to us all oh mighty defender of the Right, how could the guy in charge of a National Eavesdropping program on Americans be unfamiliar with the Constitutional Ammendments that govern such actions?
Whats your answer I-RUN-I?
January 26th, 2006 at 5:29 pmThought so.
RUN I-RUNFAST-I, RUN!
January 26th, 2006 at 5:30 pm#117, Worf, go the whole way – ask I-R-I if he recognizes the “I was only following orders” closeout from the good general. Where have we heard this before?
“GEN. HAYDEN: Sure. I didn’t craft the authorization. I am responding to a lawful order. All right? The attorney general has averred to the lawfulness of the order.”
January 26th, 2006 at 5:33 pmDon’t worry my little green-shelled buddy.
I’m going there.
But one thing at a time.
The best defense the right has now is to muddy the questions so they can blur the answers.
I want him to answer why the guy in charge of a National Eavesdropping program on Americans be unfamiliar with the Constitutional Ammendments that govern such actions.
I want him to answer that one.
Although I KNOW HE CAN’T.
January 26th, 2006 at 5:39 pmEverytime I-RUN-I sees WORFEUS, he says a few grade school insults, and then he RUNS.
January 26th, 2006 at 5:40 pmBecause he KNOWS WORFEUS won’t let him off the hook.
January 26th, 2006 at 5:41 pmI asked him to answer that question a half hour ago.
Wonder where he went? :|
January 26th, 2006 at 5:42 pmI think the ‘Angry Sons of the Confederacy’ are getting together at the local Luby’s again. Adolf needs to get himself a Treo and stay in touch with his TP pals.
January 26th, 2006 at 5:48 pmLOL. Yea and plug his brain into it for a download.
January 26th, 2006 at 5:57 pm:D
January 26th, 2006 at 5:57 pm#36 – “So if we only lost 4000 to terrorists per decade, and quarter of a Million to Drunk Drivers, why are we still sellin BOOZE???” – WorfeUS
*****It’s called tax revenue – (those cigs and booze produce alot of cha-ching)- but of course you knew that!! But being a prog, MAYBE you didn’t know that…..
The Democrats tried to improve their “war-footing” (they were sure that was a new hip-hoop dance) with the likes of General Wesley “Yes, Gert” Clark. That sure raised the confidence of the American people!!! I hate to break it to you, but the issues you’re pinning your hopes on don’t overshadow the fact that people don’t want Dems in charge. That might change – and then again…..
January 26th, 2006 at 6:04 pmI asked him to answer that question a half hour ago.
Wonder where he went? :| – IMPATIENT WorFeUS
**** I know “work” may be a foreign concept for some progs. More than likely, he had a prior engagement and it didn’t include you.
Now, I’m ready for you to throw yourself on the floor for a full blown tantrum!!! I never try to “reason with three and four year olds, so grow up. The last time one of my kids pulled that stunt in the grocery, I picked up my darling 3 1/2 year old, put my foot up on the bottom basket shelf, pulled her over my knee, dropped her little shorts and spanked her bare patoochi. Funny… that never happened again.
January 26th, 2006 at 6:14 pmMore than likely, he had a prior engagement and it didn’t include you.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — January 26, 2006 @ 6:14 pm
Gee, I knew he was a runner, but now he’s getting a girl to fight his battles for him, LOL.
January 26th, 2006 at 6:16 pmDear Morton- Have you wondered how TP (apt initials) is allowed to claim to be non-partisan and then utilize the services of one such as yourself??? Don’t you think it would be more intellectually stimulating to have “dueling viewpoints”??? Would the non-partisan claim have anything to do with TP’s tax-exempt status??? Nah!!
January 26th, 2006 at 6:17 pmLets see not lil miss notsomightyaphrodite,
I-RANAWAYANDHID-I made a comment to me at 4:56 PM.
I answered him 3 minutes later.
So either he is a little sissie hack who throws out questions and comments and then takes off so he does not have to deal with the response, or he RAN AWAY.
And since this is the 7TH TIME he has done this to me over a period of 2 Months, logic dictates its the LATTER.
January 26th, 2006 at 6:20 pmOh and by the way notsomightyaphrodite.
I could’nt help noticing instead of coming in making excuses for your bretherns hasty departure, why didn’t you take a crack at answering that question.
I mean it is the topic of the thread. Hayden that is.
So why not answer the question instead of making excuses.
I know why :|
January 26th, 2006 at 6:22 pmGee, 8 minutes and no reponse?
Go figure…..
January 26th, 2006 at 6:28 pmSame reason you suddenly appear to have been called away one could assume, ay?
January 26th, 2006 at 6:29 pm#131, now there’s a thought – invite Tucker Carlson to post the thread……mix it up a bit….
January 26th, 2006 at 6:34 pmActually, I kinda like Tucker.
I don’t know why, he just has a quality about him. More erudite than other republicans, you know?
Wish he were a liberal.
Well anyway I am up to it. I know I could clean his clock in here, or any blog.
Yea, tell Tucker WORFEUS is at his service.
January 26th, 2006 at 6:39 pmI feel like CLUBBER LANG here.
HEY FOOL!
I WANT COULTER!
I WANT CARLSON!
GRRRRRR GRRRRRRR
January 26th, 2006 at 6:40 pmHEY WOMAN, WANNA SEE A REAL MAN?
BET YOU SIT UP LATE EVERYNIGHT WISHING YOU HAD A REAL MAN….WHY DON”T YOU COME ON OVER TO MY PLACE TONIGHT AND ILL SHOW YOU A REAL MAN…..
ERGGGGGG GRRRRRRRR….
I WANT BALBOA!
January 26th, 2006 at 6:42 pmSorry, took a short trip there but I’m back now….sorry…. :o
January 26th, 2006 at 6:43 pmGee it got quiet in here.
January 26th, 2006 at 6:49 pmOr IRI please explain the fact that Sadam was demanding Euros as payment for his oil, and this occured in 2000, ever wondered why cheny hated sadam so much, until I spent a few hours using google to follow the “money trail” I didn’t understand this, so here goes,
1 since 1945 where at Brenton Woods set up thre international agreements one of which the currency of exchange was to be the dollar. This happened because most countries lost most of their gold to the US buying our tradwar goods that were mfg here. we pegged the international dollar to gold, nations could bring dollars back and get gold, but in the early &)’s we refused to give dollars for gold any more, so to keep the saudies in line we agreed to defend the monarchy as long as the saudi oil ministerkept pricing in the all mighty dollar, why is this important you ask well if I can cause you to buy my goods in dollars you take dollars, and if I can keep the most important commodity on the world economic stage priced in my currency, I have done three things sinotaniously first I can “tax” other countries in the international trade cycle, how do you ask? Well in internationalk trade the currency of trade determines the real value of the comodity, and since the US government allows inflation of around 2.5 – 3 % then as you accumulate my currency it loses value each day you hold it, and then if your forced to use thay same currency to buy vital recorces that you must have in order to operate your economy then you lose some of the profits you made to inflation giving mt manufacturing an advantage, that is the “tax” second by keeping the price measured in dollars we keep the price we pay more stable than if the price was in a currency that was increasing in value against the dollar, like that euro has done since around 2000. If we were paying in euros and every year it took more dollars to buy a euro then the price rises both thru inflation of the basic comdity price conbined with the rise of the currency price, makes the US economy pay the currency “tax”, third if the rest of the world doesn’t have any reason to accumulate dollars as the currency of exchange then they could dump dollars on the world market devaluing ths dollar therefore increasing the “tax” at the same time they no longer need th buy US government treasuries to get dollars, causing the US government to go to the banking market to finance the budget deficets, or put the US in weinmar germanies situation in the 20’s. The two possibile solutions either Devalue the dollaror inflate prices neither move an actractive idea for any politician, ask Jimmy Carter about the stagflation dilema and the rise of the misery index that it causes.
Sadam’s real crime for Dick and George, refusing to bow down to the almighty dollar. That was the “mushroom cloud Dicky-boy was really worried about, his bank account disappearing) One of the first things Paul Bremmer did was to cancel all existing oil contracts that Sadam had because they were in euros and repeg the Iraqi oil to the dollar, gives “mission accomplished” a differenr ring.
Now the Iranians are going to do something that Sadam didn’t even dare, they are going to creat a new oil market exchange where they can set the price of oil, and they are going to use the euro as the currency, they are slapping the US-british dominance in a way that Sadam couldn’t> The Iranians are challanging the NY merchantile exchange and the British LPE(London Petrolium Exchange, and to the financial leadership this must not stand, or they loose control and a dollars, an economic “nuclear” oiption that can’t happen from their point of view
January 26th, 2006 at 6:51 pmOk, I’ll leave it with my question, to I-RUN-I, not so MIGHTYAPHRODITE, TUCKER CARLSON, ANN COULTER, or any other whiteyrighty here who wants to take a crack.
How could the guy in charge of a National Eavesdropping program on Americans be unfamiliar with the Constitutional Ammendments that govern such actions?
Answer that question, and amaze even yourself.
TTFN
January 26th, 2006 at 6:52 pmSorry Clif.
I didn’t see you there. Didn’t mean to step on you.
January 26th, 2006 at 6:57 pmgee, flighty massmurderlikee,
you’re so civic-minded. just think, you could be out doing anything to make this a better world for your kids to live in, and you choose to troll around a website, espousing wingnut values instead. have you taught your children how to goose-step yet?
let me guess, you’re sitting at home, and the fact that one-party rule is actually known as totalitarianism by most students of history escapes you. you want to protect your children from those dangerous “liberals”, because if they get back into power, of course they’re going to start funding the rampant gay militias who are hell-bent on taking over the country and ‘turning everyone gay’.
you watch fox news, and that seems fair- but somehow to you it isn’t fair that there’s a website that very plainly and honestly lists ‘fighting the radical right-wing agenda’ as one of its charges. there are many people that aren’t democrats or even liberals, including myself, that consider that a very worthy cause at this point in american history. because, like it or not, and the original topic of this post proves it, the right wing, holier-than-thou whackjobs are dragging this country through the mud and have very willfully undertaken a program of persecution and truth-distortion.
the way you trolls spew hatred and desire to see those who don’t agree with you abolished is downright disgusting and, if you haven’t noticed, has turned the majority of moderates and independents against you. certainly i’d rather have a third party with a spine, but short of that i’ve got to go with the dems at this point. you wingnuts are ruining it for everyone.
so you may be proud to be raising the new hitler youth, but one day those children of yours might just resent you for leading them down a path of intolerance and myopia.
January 26th, 2006 at 6:57 pmre #142 So guys IRI, mighty Afro, rupert, tracy, mark, ben, et al are afraid of the arabs and a whole lot of other people, because they aren’t letting the US dictate the world economy, they are demanding the same rights of self-determination that we demanded in 1776. teh world no longer needs the US currency because there is another currency that can be used for international exchange, and there fore the power brokers won’t be able to stack the economic conditions to their favor and the loss of economic power scares the SH*T out of them, the wheels of our economy have come off but by having the chinese, japanese, and saudies underright the deficts they could hide this, outsourcing is one way to prop up the decline because that allows the money grubbers a role in other emerging economies but the loss of the vaulted status the dollar has had since WW2 the grubbers throne is being challenged. Remember the USSR challenged the supremacy of not only the system of manufacture but the currency of exchange, but the USSR did not have the economic might to challenge the dollar, their exist economies that are arising that do and that is where the fear comes from, but the spinmeisters have to descise the reasons, so nuclear meltdown of the dollar as unchallenged becomes the non-existant nuclear weapons of Iraq or maybe but we don’t know of Iran. There are too many fronts Venezula, rebels in Nigeria, Iraq, Iran, election of Hamas in palestine, rise of the Euro, Rise of China as the competitor that Japan was too small to be, rise of India same reason, for the neo-cons and they are running out of soldiers faster than they are running out of fronts, the future is terrifying so they are trying to change the rules here so they can keep control, first through rigged elections, but this fall that probably won’t work, then throught control by the threat of terror, getting us to give up the rights that we would use to stop them, before the actual picture of what is really going on comes into focus for the general public, and the MSM can’t ignore it any longer. Control the news and the money and you control the country, they are starting to lose control both, thus the spin ever of increasing but disjuncted threats, the terrorists are coming but for financial purposes we won’t controll the border where we get the sub-minimum wage workers we need so much, once I stopped looking where they were pointing and looked on the internet, the truth of the situation sorta slipped out. I googled peak oil; and followed the trail, one site http://www.energybulliten.net held alot of the info I have posted here, Once I understood the Iraqi’s and Iranians were challenging not washington but the bankers and wallstreet the threat from both became apparant. And the bankers and wall street movers know that without tight controls both here at home and overseas now the situation will quickly spin out of their controll.
January 26th, 2006 at 7:23 pmClif, you speak sooth….
January 26th, 2006 at 7:35 pmThe whole iraqi mess never made sence to me from a military or realpolitik way until I understood the threat of loosing the priviledged porition for the dollar, and the cascading effect on the US economy and federal budget. reading some of the website I finally had the AH HA moment. The fear of the neo-cons come into focus, they have played power politics to control the world economy since the oil crisis of 1979 and they are starting to loose the ability to control the seats of power, if the Iranians have a market that doesn’t bow to wallstreet or the international banks then they acumulate real power on the world stage, if they not only have the oil but the market then the big playters have to follow the Iranian rules, BTW the omly the five countries of Saudia Arabia, Kuwait Iraq Iran and The United Arab Emeriates would probably coordinate thru the Iranian market to further consolidate their control of the oil market, right now they only have two western controlled markets to play in
January 26th, 2006 at 7:48 pmThe man in charge of the NSA is not familiar with the law.
January 26th, 2006 at 7:58 pmIf that isn’t bad enough, he denies lawbreaking when testifying under oath before Congress.
The facts of the testimony are public record and cannot be denied.
Fish rots from the head down. Bush has set the precedent, and so it goes.
When these guys are finally out of office, the courts should be tied up for years; the only snag in that scenario will be that Bush has the SCOTUS stacked in his favor.
waitasecond.. you guys don’t get it do you..
they DID comply with FISA.. they just have a different definition of what the law actually says Bushie can do…
it’s all in the semantics..
See waterboard gonzales and scalito and that yoo guy can just write a little memo on a cocktail napkin and voila! a lawyer’s opinion said I can do this, so it’s legal!
January 26th, 2006 at 8:10 pmOnce you understand that the wheels (pun intended)of the internal economy are comming off in a big way ie; Gm is teatering on the verge of bankrupcy, and both GM and Ford are laying off workers and closing plants here, then one look at the senario of the US 1929-1932 you can see that the wingnuts in power know that alot of everyday people might not be very pleasent once the whole mess comes crashing down after the federal deficit comes due and there are no more jobe to outsource because there aren’t many jobs left worth outsourcing. Well the natives do get restless at times, the 30’s in the battles for worker rights, the 50-60’s in the civil rights movement, the 60-70’s inthe antiwar movement. But the restless movement following the earlier cracks in the american economic empire showing can’t be stopped by a reconising unions, civil rights legistration, or vietnamisation of the war.
January 26th, 2006 at 8:24 pmThis time with oil supplies getting tighter and the large scale industrial enterprises leaving not growing here the ability to grow our way out of the economic dilema will not be available, look at Weinmar Germany for a possible example of the mess that the neo-cons see coming. The patriot act and unitary executive will be very advantagoues for controlling the masses as they begin to complain rather loudly about their untenable situation of no or low wage jobs combined with hyper-inflation, and impossible health care, loss of savings to inflation and for seniors loss of pentions by the bankrupcy of the american industrial empire. Even wall street won’t be imune so stocks aren’t a way out ask anybody who held Worldcom, Enron, Tyco or the bankrupt airlines. Do you think GM stockholders will fare any better. What they neo-cons want is a way to insulate themselves from the inpending “mushroom cloud” of the biggest economic meltdown ever seen. And since they play powerpolitics and
and powereconomics at the same time they are just btrying to set the future political field to their advantage
The man in charge of the NSA is not familiar with the law.
If that isn’t bad enough, he denies lawbreaking when testifying under oath before Congress.
Comment by Marie — January 26, 2006 @ 7:58 pm
EXACTLY!!!
This is UNBELIEVABLE. Its also proof of the lack of spine in the mainstream Democratic leaders today, other than Howard Dean.
This is huge. I mean huge.
That video of him denying the existence of Probable Cause in the 4th Ammendment is enough for a Grand Jury to be impaneled to investigate corruption or incompetence on a mass scale.
When the guy in charge of the program, has NO CLUE of the laws governing the program he is OVERSEEING, then its Grand Jury time folks, its Grand Jury time.
January 26th, 2006 at 8:32 pmWhy does anyone think Bush is suddenly out there doing press confernces daily to tell us all how he did not break the law?
He knows this is it.
Its sink or swim time, and they KNOW IT.
January 26th, 2006 at 8:34 pmThe only problem of hoping for releaf from the courts is two fold, first you have to get there, and since the probability of bushco sending anything to DOJ is about as great as the probility of a housefly actually landing on the sun. The Plame mess shows that they can’t always rely on a prosecutor playing along, so we havwe to wait until somebody in DC has the power to get DOJ to act. This is one reason that the november elections cause so much gastric upheaving in the GOP because they might become a minority party and then the legal free ride is over in DC. Bush could do the samething that Gov. Ernie Fletcher (R) Kentucky when some of his underlings changing the rules without actually changing the law, He acrtually pardoned every person who was known at that time or would be discovered later from prosecution except himself, but if no-one can be charged what bare the chances they’ll testify out of their sence of civic duty. If bush pardons after a november loss of one or both houses what can we do? I mean he’s not running again and a loss in november would show him the alice-in-wonderland excuses aren’t being accepted and the Kool-aid is wearing off. So batten down the hatches legally and punt.
January 26th, 2006 at 8:44 pmMakes the November elections pretty darn important.
To bad they’re probably already rigged with that Dem2Repug Trojan.
January 26th, 2006 at 8:55 pmWorfeus this time it is going to be harder, part of the reason the patriot act and NSA spying by presidential fiat becomes more important, they know at sometime the people aren’t going to take it anymore.
January 26th, 2006 at 9:00 pmYea, but that stuff is so easy to do.
If anyone at Diebold is involved, were screwed.
There is no way Bush won some of the Democratic districts he won in 04.
No way.
January 26th, 2006 at 9:04 pmJanuary 26th, 2006 at 10:34 pm
http://www.thebulletin.org/ article_nn.php?art_ofn=jf06norris#top
January 26th, 2006 at 10:36 pmone more time.
January 26th, 2006 at 10:37 pm
#151 Clif
one look at the senario of the US 1929-1932 you can see that the wingnuts in power know that alot of everyday people might not be very pleasent once the whole mess comes crashing down after the federal deficit comes due
When one considers this scenario and adds to it the report of the banks who have been instructed by Homeland Sec. to not allow people to remove gold/silver and valuables, other than paper, from their safety deposit boxes in the event of an emergency, it all seems pretty foreboding doesn’t it?
January 26th, 2006 at 11:01 pmOf course Hayden lied!
He is a Bush supporter and a Neocon thug!!
He will never tell the truth about anything!!!
January 26th, 2006 at 11:16 pmThat is why I don’t have one, my grandfather recounted some of his personal expieriences from the great depressiuon to me, and I don’t have any account except the one I need to get my VA check.
January 27th, 2006 at 12:23 amgee, flighty massmurderlikee,
you’re so civic-minded. just think, you could be out doing anything to make this a better world for your kids to live in, and you choose to troll around a website, espousing wingnut values instead. have you taught your children how to goose-step yet?
Comment by Progressaurus Rex #145
BRAVO!!!!
January 27th, 2006 at 9:20 amWORFEUS,
You make great points, and provide very eye opening statistics…
I wonder how the dollars spent on this so-called war on terror (and who they benefit in our government and corporate dynasties) compare to the dollar amounts spent to solve the alcohol, tobacco, car crash, and illegal drus related deaths?
Thanks for opening some of our eyes WORFEUS!
January 27th, 2006 at 9:25 am[...] by Morton Halperin Think Progress ….As Think Progress documented back in December, Hayden misled Congress. In his 10/17/02 testimony, he told a committee investigating the 9/11 attacks that any surveillance of persons in the United States was done consistent with FISA. [...]
January 27th, 2006 at 9:44 amI did not know that an NSA general like Hayden. could talk about classified subjects, of wire tapping and E-Mail invasions of American citizens. Then argue that the 4th amendment does not have probable cause in it? and he is A general. Did he help plan the War in Iraq too?
January 27th, 2006 at 9:57 amwhat cracked me up listening to General Hayden the other day is his refusal to say “probable cause”. He kept using the phrase “believable cause”.
Seems to me, the General needs a refresher course in the Constitution before he gets in front of another audience in his full military uniform with his brades and medals glistening in the kleig lights and makes an ass out of himself…again.
January 27th, 2006 at 5:08 pmKiss, kiss for being so candid. if this isn’t the issue on which they get nailed, what is? (i know, there are many more, but not now).
January 27th, 2006 at 11:00 pm[...] I wrote , “While I’m sure that General Hayden the former NSA Director is a fine American” and there I go again trying to be fair and it just gets thrown back in my face, Former NSA Director Hayden Lied To Congress And Broke The Law The Bush administration has pulled out all the stops in attempting to defend the NSA’s warrantless domestic spying program. After speeches by President Bush and Attorney General Gonzales, Deputy Director of National Intelligence and former NSA Director General Michael Hayden took another crack at the defense in a speech on Monday. He’s not exactly the ideal choice to restore the administration’s credibility. [...]
January 28th, 2006 at 3:33 am[...] DeWine should know better. His efforts to reform FISA were disingenuously rejected in 2002 by the Justice Department. The administration clearly has no problem misleading Congress about its program, and DeWine wants to reward them by giving them a legal blank check? [...]
February 15th, 2006 at 2:15 pm[...] Deputy National Intelligence Director Michael Hayden, “who has a close rapport with Vice President Cheney, has not been formally offered the job,…is the leading candidate and the announcement is planned for Monday at the White House,” sources tell Time. Hayden’s record? He previously misled Congress about Bush’s warrantless spying program. 11:42 pm | Comment (0) [...]
May 5th, 2006 at 11:43 pm[...] Can we expect the same of our Democrats in the Senate when the likely nomination of Michael V. Hayden rolls around? Hayden misled a previous congressional panel and was then rolled out to snow job the compliant press when the president’s domestic wiretapping was revealed (well, after the New York Times delayed the story to come out when the election had passed). [...]
May 6th, 2006 at 1:16 am[...] Think Progress [...]
May 8th, 2006 at 5:11 pmI reccommend you write your senator and ask for a NO vote for confirmation of Hayden as Director CIA. I have, both of them. If you do this enough the message will get through.
I personally know one Senator and he knows me, and the other one is starting to get to know me. I wish either were up for election this fall, but neither is. It would make responsiveness more realistic.
I am loosing faith in the American Process of fixing itself. The best approach may be to erect Gallows of bronze or rust proof invar in front of both the White House and the Congress. The honor of being elected to serve your nation would then be balanced by the public hanging of those that steal or break the faith with the American people.
For President and Congress as well as heads of all the government offices, and Cabinets, the willful violation of statues and laws or of the Constitution, would incur a fair trial, and a quick lifetime incarceration without parole, or a public hanging by the neck until dead. Also required, would be a return of all property or wealth to the system through our public treasury, minus a two year modest stipend (social security level) for family not found associated with transgressions. No property could be inherited or shielded for progeny if the law has been violated and guilt established by jury. Property would revert to the public through auction.
The current system is not doing the job. We the People, might be able to fix it, but we need to act soon, and we need to sweep the house, and then the Senate. We need to demand the Congress uphold the Constitution and call an Article Five Amendatory Convention, as provided in the Constitution, to correct the abuses of our current national situation.
LesPorter
May 9th, 2006 at 8:56 am[...] FLACKING FOR BUSH: Air Force Gen. Michael Hayden’s nomination to be the next CIA director was already the subject of controversy given his role in misleading Congress about the domestic wiretapping program. Former NSA Director Bobby Ray Inman recently said of the program, “This activity is not authorized. … [The administration] needs to get away from the idea that they can continue doing it.” The domestic call-tracking program “means more turbulence” for Hayden’s nomination. Hayden, who ran the NSA from March 1999 until last year, “was at the helm when the phone database program began — and helped create the NSA warrantless eavesdropping program.” Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Pat Roberts (R-KS) plans to hold hearings on his nomination starting May 18. Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR), an intelligence committee member, said the reports also raise questions about Hayden’s credibility. “He is the architect of the program. He comes to the intelligence committee, says how concerned he is about privacy,” Wyden said. “This is not what the public thought this program was all about.” The call-tracking program is sure to raise questions about whether Hayden can sufficiently lead an independent intelligence-gathering agency without succumbing to the White House’s political pressure. May 13th, 2006 | [...]
May 13th, 2006 at 10:31 pmThe Plame mess shows that they can’t always rely on a prosecutor playing along, so we havwe to wait until somebody in DC has the power to get DOJ to act. This is one reason that the november elections cause so much gastric upheaving in the GOP because they might become a minority party and then the legal free ride is over in DC. Bush could do the samething that Gov. Ernie Fletcher (R) Kentucky when some of his underlings changing the rules without actually changing the law, He acrtually pardoned every person who was known at that time or would be discovered later from prosecution except himself, but if no-one can be charged what bare the chances they’ll testify out of their sence of civic duty. If bush pardons after a november loss of one or both houses what can we do?
November 20th, 2006 at 6:20 am