New NBC Poll Shows Solid Majority Opposes Warrantless Wiretaps
By on Jan 31st, 2006 at 11:40 am
New NBC Poll Shows Solid Majority Opposes Warrantless Wiretaps
According to Chris Matthews, warrantless wiretapping of U.S. citizens is “a winning issue politically” for President Bush.
A new poll from NBC and the Wall Street Journal further undermines Matthew’s argument:
That’s a pretty big margin in favor of the President following the law. How long will the media keep repeating the “conventional wisdom” that warrantless wiretapping of U.S. citizens is a good issue for President Bush when most polls show the opposite?
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They will keep doing it until another Party takes control of the government and starts passing laws breaking up their monopoly on the airwaves.
January 31st, 2006 at 11:44 am53% that’s better than a mandate!
January 31st, 2006 at 11:46 amhow long will we chit-chat about this issue before we take binding legal action against Bush?
polls are good, but they’re not the law… even if 2% are against Bush, he’s still a criminal, and should be prosecuted… we don’t take polls to decide criminals’ fate…
January 31st, 2006 at 11:47 amTest
January 31st, 2006 at 11:47 amgood point… if 51% was mandate, what is 53%? I’d say it’s a fucking order…
January 31st, 2006 at 11:48 amWho cares about a stupid poll like this? It was probably manipulated by the media to make Bush look bad. You dems are a bunch of wining losers. Why don’t you just show some gratitude that after 9/11 Bush has made us secure.
January 31st, 2006 at 11:52 amAnswer: As long as the MSM pollsters keep asking the wrong question. A majority of Americans consistently support warrantless electronic surveillance of terrorist communications with their American associates. The fact that NBC and other MSM news organizations refuse to ask the question that way shows that they know Chris Matthews is right.
January 31st, 2006 at 11:52 amI’m thinking #1 has the timeframe about right.
January 31st, 2006 at 11:55 amIt is quite clear that the media essentially
let’s the WH dictates how stories will play.
Look at the Abramoff story.
The early reporting was pretty good.
Then when it was clear that it was a huge
GOP scandal the WH started putting pressure
on WaPo for “fox balance”, i.e., slant in favor
of the GOP. You could see it in the reporting,
but Little Debbie went overboard with the WH
instructions and forgot to make her lie even
remotely deniable.
She will be better at misleading from now
on I expect, but at least fewer people will
believe her.
Sean Hannity is right.
January 31st, 2006 at 11:55 amWorst. President. Ever.
Eventually, BSR, Randy, Bruce and the rest of the inhabitants of wingnutistan will figure it out. Until then, don’t forget your right to bear arms.
January 31st, 2006 at 11:55 amJudd, that depends on how long the media lies to the American public about the real process of obtaining the warrants. The American public wants security. The process needs change so that we can maintain as much of our privacy and rights without exposing ourselves to significant risk. Here is a portion of a piece that was in yesterday’s WSJ:
Despite this history, some members of Congress contend that this process-heavy court is agile enough to rule on quickly needed National Security Agency (NSA) electronic surveillance warrants. This is a dubious claim. Getting a FISA warrant requires a multistep review involving several lawyers at different offices within the Department of Justice. It can take days, weeks, even months if there is a legal dispute between the principals. “Emergency” 72-hour intercepts require sign-offs by NSA lawyers and pre-approval by the attorney general before surveillance can be initiated. Clearly, this is not conducive to what Gen. Michael Hayden, principal deputy director of national intelligence, calls “hot pursuit” of al Qaeda conversations.
January 31st, 2006 at 11:55 amI’m sure that if the question included the fact that Pres. Bush could get a warrant AFTER he already initiated wire tapping against someone that the number of people against no warrant at all would be even higher.
The ultra-radical right hates the “rule of law†when it’s applied against their positions.
The Republican party has become the party of “no responsibility for their actionsâ€.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:00 pmWe should be honest here:
January 31st, 2006 at 12:02 pm1) Everyone wants the government to be able
to wiretap suspected terrorists and even
serious criminals.
2) It is really oversight of any kind that
the WH wants to avoid.
3) The details of the rules could be tweaked
if need be, but the WH said no when DeWine
tried to do so. Strange behavior if the rules
were a problem.
4) Rule of law is very important. Just saying
“because I want to protect you” is a rationalization
that does nothing to prevent abuse.
5) This country was structured so as not to force
the people to just “trust” some flawed human
to do the right thing. Thus, this wire-tapping is
a fundamental betrayal of what the founding fathers
created in our “rule of law” system.
If we have “no responsibility for their actionsâ€, then how do we keep winning? Y’all just a bunch of cry babies. Watch the president tonight so you can learn what this country is all about. You either love it or leave it.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:03 pmJudd, you’ve misquoted Matthews, I think. Plus you’ve taken a question on his part and turned it into an assertion, which is kind of inaccuracy Think Progress would usually attack rather than propogate. I read it as Matthews’ assuming Rove’s strategy would be to embrace the wiretapping issue and try to make it a winning issue — how would he go about that? (Sorry to sound like a Chris Matthews apologist.)
January 31st, 2006 at 12:05 pmThere is legitimate reason to believe this adminsitration is wiretapping members of the media, peaceful protesters and anyone it considers its enemy.
We know that Bush publicly stated that wiretapping required approval from a FISA court prior to having the whistle blown. They broke the law and they lied about it and they’re lying about who is being targeted by stating that it’s only terrorist suspects. This is about intimidating dissenting citizens more than its about security. As I’ve said before, these are paranoid Nixonians and they have a history in these types of tactics.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:06 pm#14, would you have said the same thing to
January 31st, 2006 at 12:06 pmthe founding fathers of this country when
faced with British tyranny?
Just wondered.
Most Americans don’t have a problem with warrantless wiretaps because they know THEY don’t have terrorist ties. It’s that prison NIMBY mentality-prisons are important, build more prisons, but Not In My Back Yard! We all have to understand that the Administration is casting an incredibly wide net in the hopes that maybe…MAYBE they’ll stumble upon 2 terrorists talking to each other. And that’s time and money that, perhaps, could be better used exploring the leads we already have.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:06 pmWhen the majority of congress decide to stand up and confront the abuse of the Oval Office. The American media is big business and as such, the corporate boards want access and influence in the political sphere. Bushco has given it to them with the understanding that real reporting on WH activities and policy positions will not occur. Matthews is a script reader and messenger for his bosses. Americans continue to confuse the ratings seekers with real news journalists of the past.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:06 pm#9 – Sean Hannity’s lies:
1 – No WMD’s and David Kay testified against this incorrect assertion.
2 – Colin Powell was NOT accurate on progress in Iraq like Sean falsely asserts.
3 – Links between Saddam/Al Quida not ‘extensive’ like Sean falsely asserts.
4 – Pres. Bush opposed the creation of a special commission to probe the causes of 9/11 for over a year, unlike Sean’s false assertion.
5 – The recession BEGAN in March 2001, two months AFTER Pres. Bush was sworn in, not like Sean falsely asserts.
I’d go on, but why do it? You’ve blinded yourself to the truth, and you’re unlikely to open you eyes until you have no other choice.
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=91585
http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00000630.htm
January 31st, 2006 at 12:08 pm#17 this is post 9/11 world. When are you guys going to come back to the future? If you want to live in 1776, I suggest you get in a time machine.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:08 pmConservatives, right wing, Republican Party, Bush supporters…
…all synonyms or treasonous heathens…
January 31st, 2006 at 12:08 pmConservatives, right wing, Republican Party, Bush supporters…
…all synonyms for treasonous heathens…
January 31st, 2006 at 12:09 pmWhat is scary is 41% of Americans don’t seems phased by the violation of their Civil Liberties, privacy, the law, and President Bush’s oaths of office.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:09 pmJudd, you might want to fix the headline. It’s the supporters of unfettered domestic spying who have soiled themselves out of panic.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:10 pm#21,
January 31st, 2006 at 12:11 pmThe constitution got us through the civil war,
WWI, WWII, and the cold war.
We don’t need to trash it because of a bunch
of rag-tag dorks with box cutters.
Get real, keep things in perspective, and
stop being so afraid, i.e., get a grip.
Too bad the Republicans want to take us all back to the time of King George and “Don’t you DARE question our leader! Just because he’s lied and lied and lied doesn’t mean he’s lying now!”
I wish the Republicans would hold ONE standard, and not a double standard. They believe in the “rule of law” when it’s convenient, but throw it out the window when Pres. Bush is caught breaking the law.
They (Republicans) believe that you can support the troops and not the President, but when you use their argument against them, it’s a completely different story.
Republican hypocrisy, it’s the wave of the future!
January 31st, 2006 at 12:11 pmActually, the question was skewed in favor of the President by assuming they only spied on those suspected of having terrorist ties. Without oversight and warrants there is no proof the assumption is true, so it should’ve read:
Is it cool if Bush spies on Americans whenever he wants?
January 31st, 2006 at 12:12 pm#17 this is post 9/11 world. When are you guys going to come back to the future? If you want to live in 1776, I suggest you get in a time machine.
Why are right-wingers such pussies?
The US has survived civil war and the threat of nuclear annihilation. Why does the thought of one terrorist attack make you wet your pants?
January 31st, 2006 at 12:12 pmYes #28, the question really does make an
January 31st, 2006 at 12:14 pmassumption that we have no way of really knowing
because the wire-tapping has no over-sight.
Not to mention that it’s always the tough talkin conservatives that are wetting their pants over the neverending threats to our safety and security. The vast majority of these people don’t live within a time zone of an actual realistic terrorist target (and MANY of us in Boston and New York were actually impacted directly on 9/11) and they want to tell us about being safe and secure.
Sit on this and rotate you fraudulent cowards.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:15 pm#29 – I don’t think it makes Republicans “wet their pants” in fear, it’s more like they are wetting themselves at the possibility at destroying the Constitution in the favor of President Bush.
The only “fear” they have is that a Democrat will become President with the powers they want to enshrine under Pres. Bush. You see, just like the double standard that Republican’s have concerning the “rule of law”, they also believe that executive powers should be enhanced ONLY under Republican Presidents, and reduced under Democratic Presidents.
Remember: it’s the hypocrisy!
January 31st, 2006 at 12:16 pmSo, all of these conversations that the NSA is listening to, where one of the speakers is an Al Qaida member, according to them, anyhow, are we to assume that all of these conversations are in English? Wouldn’t they be more likely to be speaking a foreign language? A safe assumption to make. So who is doing the translating? How long does it take?It is well known that the US lacks sufficiant numbers of translators, a problem that they themselves compounded by getting rid of the ones that happened to be gay. Cause gay people are waaaaaay more scary than terrorists! And they are keeping us safe?!? Whatever….
January 31st, 2006 at 12:17 pm#29 Gary:
I think what Bruce means is that — in the “post 9/11 world” — democracy and the rule of law are irrelevant.
Only fear matters. We need to change the flag to 13 yellow stripes and 50 chickens.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:17 pmprops to #12,
How much higher would that majority opinion be, if the question noted (and reflected the actual law) that warrants may be obtained up to 72 hours after beginning the surveillance.
How about a question about how vast a net must be cast to root out those indivivduals with “ties to terrorists”, and how far they want the gub’ment fishing”
Well, still it was a better poll question that many that have come out on this topic. Unfortunately alito is in that 41%.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:17 pm#32, Yes you really have it just right:
January 31st, 2006 at 12:18 pmhypocrisy is the defining characteristic
of the GOP and their zombie minions.
#14, people who say ‘love it or leave’ or ‘with us or against us’ are either moral imbeciles or fascists. Take your pick.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:18 pmTerry, I’m going with the latter….
January 31st, 2006 at 12:19 pm#6 Bruce,
Just because there has not been an attack, does not mean the Pres has kept anyone safer. The Pres has acutally fanned the flames of terrorism with his policy, it’s just a matter of time.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:20 pmThis poll doesnt even make mention of the 72 hour window that FISA allows before a court order needs to be obtained.
When will we see a poll that lays out all the facts? That 41% approval is pretty haunting if you ask me.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:21 pmHere is something to consider about MOST of the republicans. A majority of them have not served in the military. They are quick though to say that someone who has served is a traitor or un-American.
These people MAKE ME SICK. To quote a line from a Few Good Men….
“I just wish that you would say thank you!”
For someone who has never served their country, they sure are quick to tell someone else what it is to be patriotic.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:21 pm#38,
January 31st, 2006 at 12:21 pmI was going with both, i.e., fascist imbeciles.
Dear Afterthought – Better put aside your naive historical viewpoint. Better yet, please explain to me and other conservatives how Lincolns’ suspension of habeus corpus, his first amendment violations (shutting down contentious newspapers)and the internment of the Japanese citizens and non-citizens was constitutional.
(The following is an excerpt of a post from another thread I posted this morning.)
Progressives should make the grand leap out of 1965. This ain’t your grandfather’s spying and subterfuge. Gone are the days of the “Pumpkin Papers†and disappearing ink. (Mr. Aphrodite and I went to see “Munich†the other night. Driving home, we were talking about the fact that covert and deadly missions could actually take place without the instant communication of cell phones and laptops. Watching the character signal his co-conspirator with the tip of his hat – only to have the signal blocked by a passing truck – was reminiscent of Brutus or Paul Revere – and quite startling.)
Regarding those quaint Quakers. Put aside your friendly notion of the guy on the oatmeal box. I’m sure you are familiar with the American Friends Service Committee. This group has caused havoc down here in San Diego with their push for open borders and their opposition to real border enforcement. Again, this is 9/10/2001 thinking.
I suppose progressives may want to maintain that title with their influence on the arts and culture but when it comes to national security they should start digging out those “smart†pill box hats or hand made leather sandals. Many of the progressive viewpoints are as current as macrame, BETA, and analog phones.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:22 pmYay Mighty, nice to see ya back!
January 31st, 2006 at 12:23 pm#40 Actually, FISA gives 15 days in times of war. Since EVERYONE is so fixed on saying we are at war, when we are not, then that would mean that the president actually has 15 days.
So there is absolutely no reason that he could not get a warrant.
Cummon you Republicans, what do you have to say to 15 days. What reason can you give to support not going to FISA to get a warrant 15 days after the wire tap has been initiated?
January 31st, 2006 at 12:24 pmBefore answering the poll;How many people fully understand that the wiretapping could be done legally with no time delay, and thus no risk to the protection of the public. Very few, I suspect due to our crappy,lazy,complicit corporate media?
January 31st, 2006 at 12:24 pm#29, Gary, you’re right. I don’t see my fellow New Yorkers shaking in their boots. I’m willing to bet that, despite the Bush administration’s 9/11 mantra, most Americans aren’t, either. We have much more realistic things to worry about, like healthcare, gas prices, etc.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:24 pmJeez, we get a new crop of idiots ever day it seems. Wouldn’t we want to see the ISP addresses to see if they are all coming from the same office out of the RNC.
Wouldn’t surprise me.
They could have framed the question better. Like:
“Would you have any ovjection to President dumbya, or his corrupt associates, listening in on your every phone call, reading all your email (including your hotmail accounts) in the name of protecting America from Osama bin Laden?” Then we’d get the real 95% oppose it that we should be seeing.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:24 pmThinkProgress’ refusal to post an article about Alito’s ascension to the high Court shows how detached from reality you all are.
Judd, this is a nice poll. Proves your point. Meanwhile, Justice Alito will be deciding this – not some washed up pollster still reeling from the 2004 election.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:25 pmNever said these things were constitutional,
January 31st, 2006 at 12:25 pmbut since you bring them up we can discuss
how these super important security measures
end up looking like unecessary attacks on
civil liberties, just like Bush’s power grab
here.
#7 The FBI has said that all they are getting from the program is bullshit that has nothing to do with terrorism. So your point was? And the pollsters were asking the wrong question when they originally started asking. The questions now are more neutral while previously they were along the lines of do you think the president has the authority to wire tap al queda operatives…or other shit like that.
#13 spot on accurate good post.
Regarding 9/11 notice how the states (MA, NY, NJ, MD, PA, CA) who were directly affected by 9/11 voted in the presidential elections. They saw how they were damaged and what has occurred since and they have voiced their opinions. Mean while states who were not directly affected have been wetting their pants and selling their souls for the illusory protection offered to the by the dear leader. However when those states get hammered by natural disasters and the dear leader fails them, they still somehow support the dear leader. One wonders what the f&*^ they are thinking.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:26 pm#39 – Using that logic, Pres. Clinton was GREAT President!
There has not been another domestic terrorist attack of the nature of the Oklahoma City bombing!
Since that’s your standard, then stand up and say “Yay!” for Pres. Clinton!
Unless, of course, you another double-standard Republican that refuses to take responsibility for your actions.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:26 pmIntelligence Lite,
It’s called ThinkProgress, why would they post something on Alito?
January 31st, 2006 at 12:27 pmHow can they have “depends” as a category? Depends on what? Whether or not they are spying on a terrorist? WTF difference does it make, especially considering that is the very point of this poll!
Depends…what does that even mean. Its ridiculous. Either you believe Bush needs a warrant to spy on people or you are fine with Bush spying on Americans without anyone the wiser. Either way, there is no “depends”.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:28 pm#52 – My pardon, I should have addressed my comments to “Bruce” and his historical revisionist perception.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:29 pmDepends??? It’s what the conservative Republicans are wearing these days.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:30 pm#54,
Maybe that was for wingers that are so scared
January 31st, 2006 at 12:30 pmthey wear “depends”?
afterthought and I have the same taste in bad jokes :)
January 31st, 2006 at 12:30 pmApparently Jay, but you got there first.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:31 pmIt doesn’t take a genius to put the dots together and see that Mr. Bush himself knows he’s breaking the law here.
A: He once admitted that wiretaps of Americans require a court order.
B: Now he admits that he’s wire-tapping Americans without the benefit of a court order.
You put these two items together and it’s clear that he’s breaking the law (and knows it).
Anyone else notice that the deeper he sinks into his cesspool of corruption, the higher his elbows get?
January 31st, 2006 at 12:32 pmWhat it that all about?
#53 – I agree.
Why would Think Progress want to talk about a Judge that thinks it’s fine for federal agents to hold a gun to a grandmothers head for wanting to call a lawyer? Or that the case about a mentally impaired boy questining his being held down and sexually exposed wasn’t written well enough to deserve a hearing? Or that Big Government and Big Business are much more important that the average citizen?
You can’t have enough support for Big Government for Judge Alito! Big Business is MUCH more important than the rights of the average citizen, according to Judge Altio!
Good going there, Pres. Bush! Just when you thought Harriet Meyers was bad, enter Judge Alito and his pro-big government beliefs!
January 31st, 2006 at 12:33 pmIRI
In the field of behavioral health, treating domestic violence, perpetrators, and angry people is not with fear, intimidation, violence, or force. It is common sense that those methods are ineffective and increase the problems. So as a nation, we go on the offensive, use fear, intimidation, violence and force, what do you think the reaction to that would be?
I agree that using force is necessary as a means of defending a direct and immenent attack, as a last resort, not preemptively. Warrentless wiretapping is justified by the fear people have bought into, and preemtive war justifies almost anything.
IRI, you are the one using old, out of date ideas, which have been in practice for centuries. You must be one of the minds living in the glory days of WWII, when just bombing, and kicking ass worked great. Keep up the fear! (watch out I think there is a muslim guy with a backpack coming up to your frontdoor, hurry go see)
January 31st, 2006 at 12:34 pm#25 Hit the nail on the head. Why are Rpublicans such a bunch of pussies?
Don’t you think bin Laden loves to watch Americans cower in their basements, scared shitless, give up their fundamental rights for a false sense of patronizing security? Don’t you think that was his goal? That, and to weaken the US Army by sending them on a wild goose chase?
I, for one will not be Pussy-American Republican. I’d rather take my chances and live like a real American with a full Bill of Rights and a huge set of balls. The only other (republican) alternative is to drop a pantload, piss my pants and give up my civil liberties everytime I see the scary arab man on dialysis.
I hope this country is stronger than that, even if Republicans and our chickenhawk president aren’t.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:35 pm#62, sorry meant for Mighty, I confused IRI with Mighty, is it a coincidence?
January 31st, 2006 at 12:36 pmNotice that as soon as everyone starts calling the conservative trolls out for being bedwetting sissies, they disappear?
Drives the point home beautifully.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:37 pmWhenever people read polls, one rule of thumb which I was always taught to keep in mind is “consider the source” — it goes hand-in-glove with Benjamin Disraeli’s famous quote about there being three kinds of lies (lies, damn lies, and statistics). In this case, however, the fact that this poll was conducted under the auspices of the Wall Street Journal should make this poll somewhat more credible in my opinion — they can hardly be accused of having been a bastion of rampant liberalism over the past few years (rather the contrary, in fact). It should be more difficult for the conservatives to argue that this poll is skewed when one of the sponsors of the poll has by and large been leaning in support of administration policy.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:38 pmCalling all Right Wingers,
Getting afraid, giving up civil liberties(freedom), is exactly what terrorists want, they want to terrorize. So how are we winning the war on terrorism?
January 31st, 2006 at 12:41 pm#64 – Same calumny, inability to think outside talking points, one standard for Republicans and another for Democrats, refusal to see how the definition of ‘fascist’ is closest to neo-con actions, dismissal of any criticism towards Republicans as ‘whining’ while whining criticism of Democrats is just great. . . . .
Nope, very little difference between “Right between the I’s†and Woody Allen’s “Mighty Aphroditeâ€. Maybe Woody Allen’s “Mighty Aphrodite†has better spelling skills?
January 31st, 2006 at 12:45 pmTips on not being afraid:
God takes you when it’s time for him to take you, don’t give that option to terrorists, or anyone else.
You could have all the best security in the world, and God can still take you, you could get a bad peice of food, trip and fall, have a heart attack, anyrism, it doesn’t matter, if God wants you to stay, you stay, if its time to go, you go. Take that option away from anyone else.
The religious right should know this stuff. I don’t even go to church. People get what they want, if you want to live in fear, you will get things to be afraid of.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:48 pmIt does not matter a damn what the general populace thinks about the illegal wiretaps. This a country of laws, not men. The Fourth Amendment makes domestic warrantless wiretapping illegal.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:51 pm#21 I’d rather be thrown in the trunk for complaining about why my equal 1/2 of the argument wasn’t heard about where we were going, then caught in the front seat given Toonces a hand job as we ALL go off the cliff.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:53 pm#67 Let’s see:
Top Ten Things You Won’t Hear in the SOTU. Thanks to Juan Cole
Tonight’s televised event will resemble a circle jerk competition in the bar of the Titanic.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:53 pmMighty,
My thoughts posted on #69, are very progressive and ahead of it’s time, you and your like minded people are grovelling around in the backwaters of fear and lower functioning ideas, violence, force, weapons, gated communities, hurrying up to your car if you see a black man coming. You truly are functioning out of the basic, instinctual, survival portion of your brain, like an animal.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:54 pmThis president has told us how he wants to rule:
If this were a dictatorship, it’s be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I’m the dictator. Washington, D.C., December 19, 2000.
I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe and what I believe — I believe what I believe is right. Rome, Italy, July 22, 2001
I’m the commander — see, I don’t need to explain – I do not need to explain what I say things. That’s the interesting thing about being president. – as quoted in Bob Woodward’s Buch at War.
The WH perspective of not having to explain is based on the values of the president. He does view himself as a ruler. We better wake up.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:55 pmJudd,
I am deeply appreciative of all the useful information that you provide. However, I’m becoming more and more convinced that you and your friends at Think Progress are engaging in the same half-truths that the current Administration engages in. Well, to be fair, I’m not even sure this Administration gives the American people even half-truths anymore (but that’s not my main point!).
I was pleasantly surprised to find out that there seemed to be a clear majority of people “in favor of the President following the law.” The problem arose when I investigated further, by actually looking at the poll. Directly preceding the question you posted was this question:
51% approved while only 46% disapproved.
The great benefit of Think Progress is exposing the truth. But I implore you to give your readers some credit. Don’t provide just half the story. Give us the full story and let us decide.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:56 pmFor (Selective) Truth says “…you are the one using old, out of date ideas, which have been in practice for centuries.” Like watching the History Channel or C-SPAN? You must have liked our former “lawyer in chiefs” tepid responses on the terrorist assaults during his tenure – don’t want to pi$$ off the enemy. An Ace bandage may come in handy to prop up all the weak knees and limp wrists out there.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:57 pmChris Matthews is just another fat-head.
January 31st, 2006 at 12:59 pm#76 – Fielding, Fielding, Fielding – You’re not supposed to dig deeper – TP will tell you everything you “need” to know! Do you suppose TP would be able to frame it’s “non-partisan” argument in such a partisan way if they followed your “full disclosure” suggestion?
January 31st, 2006 at 1:01 pm#75 SW Bob – you missed this one:
“…the Constitution…, It’s just a goddamned piece of paper!”
January 31st, 2006 at 1:01 pm#77 – Don’t worry, I’m sure that Pres. Bush will find plenty of ace bandages to prop up his weak kneed/wrist rationale for breaking the laws that he initially said he wouldn’t break.
Ahh, I wish for the days of when Republicans would accept responsibility for their actions! Oh, for the “rule of law†to be applied equally to both parties instead of just when it’s convenient for Republicans!
Hypocrisy, thy party is Republican!
January 31st, 2006 at 1:02 pm#77 Tim McVeigh didn’t think the response to his ‘terrorism’ was all that tepid….
January 31st, 2006 at 1:03 pmThanks Mighty, Keep up that fear. Oh by the way, everyone felt safer during that time you speak of. Even you.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:03 pm#65
No use responding to such BS statements. Anytime, anywhere, and anyone.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:04 pmFor Truth – How conservative to discuss God in such a progressive and humanistic forum!!
January 31st, 2006 at 1:05 pm#83 – Well, of COURSE everyone felt safer!
Pres. Clinton was held to the “rule of law”, and was held “responsible for his actions”!
Interesting that it only seems to apply to Democratic Presidents, and not Republican Presidents.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:05 pmTim McVeigh, the Blind Sheik, and a number of others. Clinton had boots on the ground chasing bin Laden when Republicans were still in their sex-obsessed “pre-9/11 mindset.”
Only Republicans have a post-9/11 mindset, because only Republicans were apparently unaware of terrorism before 9/11. Bush was oblivious enough to take a month long vacation while Clinton’s policy of pursuing bin Laden was “under review.” That’s when 9/11 hit.
Republicans couldn’t secure a bag of rocks, let alone the country. They’re only good at scaring the midwest, who are now afraid dark skinned terrorists are going to blow up the Witchita mini mall.
Like irony? Republicans are fighting for big, intrusive government.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:06 pmMight aprodity, according to Physics , Newtons Third law, if the GOP is as Bold as you are persuaded of, there is naturally an equal force opposing it. So what is limp wristed about an opposition equal in energy? http://www.opencourse.info/astronomy/introduction/06.motion_gravity_laws/
January 31st, 2006 at 1:07 pmMighty,
I am more moderate than you think. If the religious right really practiced their religion, there would be less killing, lying, and fear, don’t you think?
January 31st, 2006 at 1:07 pmBruce you support the Saudi 911 terrorists? Bush does.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:09 pm# 43 its nice to see how you comment on 9/10/2001 mindsets as being wrong, yet you invoke 1860’s and 1940’s mindsets to prove your points. Mind-boggling. The difference between Lincoln and today is that we now have an additional 140 years of experience under our belts. What Lincoln did has no bearing on the President today. Likewise with what Roosevelt did, which has been widely discussed as being wrong so why bring them up? Only to divert attention.
The law is the law and to decide that one president has the power to set aside the law on his own volition is dead wrong. There are no exceptions to the constitution. Sorry you hate the document so much but it is what it is and it was written by much wiser men than those who are interpreting it for the president today. Besides I thought that the republicans wanted to stick with a strict reading and original intent (two different things actually) when interpreting the constitution. It is a strict reading when it suits them and original intent when it suits them. BTW did you realize that the original intent was for the document to change its meaning over time? The framers realized that times change and meanings change in addition they knew that new rights would be discovered over time, which is a real pain in the ass for those who want original intent, yet don’t want our right to privacy to exist). Oh well, go grab some more Kool aid, they have kooky conservative on tap today, I hear it’s yummy and full of vitamins and talking points.
#49 that has nothing to do with this topic yet. Yet because eventually Alito will help the adminsitration destroy that god damned piece of paper.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:09 pmSince 35 to 40 percent of the public seem to think it’s OK if Bush were a serial rapist, you gotta figure most independents are against him now and he’s down to his psychotic base.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:11 pm#82 – Terry – Was Tim McVeigh aligned with foriegn terrorists?? Of course, the brilliance of the left demonstrates extraordinary knowledge.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:11 pmMighty,
It seems trying to find some common ground, having a rational discussion, respecting each others views, seems to be much more effective in getting along. It’s playing out right now with you. What other proof do you need to show you that the current admin’s policies are just creating more hate, and violence directed toward the US?
January 31st, 2006 at 1:12 pm#Who cares about a stupid poll like this? It was probably manipulated by the media to make Bush look bad. You dems are a bunch of wining losers. Why don’t you just show some gratitude that after 9/11 Bush has made us secure.
Comment by Bruce — January 31, 2006 @ 11:52 am
mr ho say thats not what you say yesterday.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:13 pmAS ARE GRATE LEEDER SAY: “SCIYENCE IS A PLOT BY EVIL WIZZARDS”
January 31st, 2006 at 1:13 pmLet’s see: they wiretap our phones, spy on our internet usage, and open our mail from overseas, even from nonterrorist states from nonterrorist, all without a warrant. They control the media and claim that anyone who opposes their agenda, and their illegal activity, is unpatriotic. Can you say fascist state?
January 31st, 2006 at 1:13 pmIs there any doubt in anybody’s mind that Bruce is wwallace?
January 31st, 2006 at 1:14 pmRight Slap is RyANNe-lite with the “sweetie this” and the pummkin that” – But he/she never is quite able to address a point – those who can, do. Those who can’t talk about everything else. Bless your heart….
January 31st, 2006 at 1:14 pmMighty,
I almost had ya in #90, but you quickly caught yourself, and decided to focus on another post. Don’t let common sense stray you from your mission.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:15 pmHey Bruce how does Corruption in the Senate, mostly republican,
Help our COuntry?
Spying and Corruption at the Upper Levels of Congress and offices Weaken National Security.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:15 pm#Right Slap is RyANNe-lite with the “sweetie this†and the pummkin that†– But he/she never is quite able to address a point – those who can, do. Those who can’t talk about everything else. Bless your heart….
Comment by mighty aphrodite — January 31, 2006 @ 1:14 pm
Yes Lets talk about Bush Spying before 911 and the Weakening of National Security when he ignored the Intelligence.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:19 pm“Why don’t you just show some gratitude that after 9/11 Bush has made us secure”
Why don’t you show me were Bush made us more secure!
January 31st, 2006 at 1:19 pmBruce you keep winning because …
1) You simply cheat… from the GOP scammers out west that were signing up democrats to vote them throwing their signatures in the trash, to forcing changes to voting districts to make them GOP heavy, to not providing enough ballot boxes to allow everyone to vote before the end of the day, to telling blacks they cant vote because a name similar to theirs shows up on a felons list, to GOP polsters “losing” ballots, etc.. etc..
2) You are dumb. Just like the dumb germans that let themselves believe the nazis (you still consider nazis bad right?) There is ample information on the Internet to prove what is real and what is not and you consistantly dont do any research and just go with whoever your circle of friends think is cool.
3) No honor. You have no respect for the honor of following the law OR the honor of what this nations founders were trying to do by taking power away from the executive and giving it to the people. No honor in being on the side of truth. No honor for the soldiers that have fought and died to protect Americas liberty and democracy.
4) No Jesus. You want to grab your balls and emit a guteral scream of I AM BETTER THAN YOU ALL!!!! Instead of being a true follower of the ways of Jesus which this country was founded on. ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL. That does not exclude the Iraqis, the Democrats, Blacks, Muslims, the French, etc.
5) Southern. Most of you are southern hicks that dont know the difference between civil rights and white power. And so have no restraints on treating others opinions as equal with your own.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:20 pmThe way to make things work for most of the people most of the time is to be moderate. Being too far in any direction is going to alienate, piss off half of the people. Whoever can ignore half of the people is not a good leader. Most people are moderate, but they are the ones who are uninvolved and don’t give a crap. The two extremes are most involved, due to how adament they are.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:21 pm#95, was Tim McVeigh a terrorist is the question? What then is Eric Rudolph? What do you think? Or is the ‘War on Terra’, now the ‘War on Foreign Terra’? I must have missed the memo. Thanks for acknowledging my brilliance, I appreciate your support.
Here’s a defintion of a terrorist.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:23 pmUntil somebody like Matthews ends up in serious trouble, because his phone was getting tapped, or his emails were getting read, or his Internet searches were getting examined, the media is going to keep spinning such activities against the American people as a win-win situation.
Too many people continue to say, well, I’m innocent, this would never happen to me. Well, innocence doesn’t bar children from being put on the No Fly List. Innocence doesn’t bar countless men and women from being imprisoned due to the “War on Terror”, without trials or access to lawyers. Innocence doesn’t bar dictatorships from doing whatever the heck they want for whatever reasons they have, and it certainly doesn’t put anyone above suspicion.
Again, Matthews is just using GOP talking points. Sooner or later enough gullable, inattentive people will actually believe the lies. If they didn’t continue to believe the lies, Fox News would no longer exist in its current form.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:25 pm#96 – For Truth – Since we were attacked 4 1/2 years ago, please tell me what the US was doing PRIOR to 9/11 to promulgate “hate”. (BIG HINT: it wasn’t the racy movies and pop culture that was pi$$ing off the Arab world.) The barbarians of the Arabian world detest the loyalty of the US to our ally, Israel. So, I guess if you want to just consider their 7th century viewpoint and turn our backs on our best Mid-EAst ally…I don’t.
But in the meantime, we could apply your sensitve and progressive thinking – we could break into the timely and haunting rendition of “Imagine”. Perhaps you would want to help “understand” the radical Arab street and volunteer as a human shield.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:25 pmWhy don’t you just show some gratitude that after 9/11 Bush has made us secureâ€
Why don’t you show me were Bush made us more secure!
Comment by Butterfly — January 31, 2006 @ 1:19 pm
If you knew about and read the congressional records you would know about able danger and that Bush ignored it, resulting in the Attack on 911. Bush Weakened National Security by ignoring that Intelligence.
mr ho says one should seek out information instead of having it spoon fed.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:26 pmBruce , was the patriot act presented by the Congress or the President? If you really want an honest answer Ido not feel safer after 911 and I certainly don’t think the president has done anything to clarify just what safer is. What color are we on? We now know that it’s ok if WMDs weren’t found, we now know Democracy in Iraq wasn’t the goal of our intervention. can you imagine if during the late 1860’s if a foreign country invaded The U.S. and sided with the native American indians because of the way they were tyranically treated for years? I felt REAL safe when UBL’s family was given beyond special clearance to leave the country. Did you need more, I got lot’s of time?
January 31st, 2006 at 1:26 pmThe local bush lovers are now claiming that, “bush has not allowed any more terrorists attacks…on American soil.” Of course it’s a great use of mis-direction. Why spend the resources coming here when bush/cheney are providing young American soldiers to kill in their backyard? The fact is that Americans are continuing to die as a result of the president’s “war on Terror.” Our occupancy of Iraq will continue to provide the best possible training ground for anyone who wants to attack America.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:28 pmI ask you Butterfly if You Have read those records?
Are you butterfly aware of Data Flows, TCP/UDP protocols?
Are you familiar with Network devices, Swithcers Routers Programs, Hexidecimal and Binary Encodings or RF EMF type EM?
Have you EVER known Anyone Butterfly that Has worked in one of these Agencies?
January 31st, 2006 at 1:29 pmIf you really want an honest answer Ido not feel safer after 911 and I certainly don’t think the president has done anything to clarify just what safer is.
Comment by the fly-man #116
fly-man,
Maybe Bruce should refer to Bushiva’s success in controlling the flow of illegal immigrants, certifying shipping containers as safe, and the discovery of that HUGE tunnel btwn San Diego and Tijuana…
See Bruce? Bushiva really IS serious about keeping you safe…
January 31st, 2006 at 1:32 pm#43 mighty aphrodite
What Lincoln did WAS unConstitutional. I for one and I think many people forgive Lincoln for this because he was trying to stop the destruction of America which is the point of the Constitution. There was a war going on in the American home land…on our soil. Dont even START saying 9/11 was on our soil because the people that attacked us on our soil were Saudis and you are a traitorous Saudi loyalist not an American. Another thing about what Lincoln did is that it was supposed to be temporary, but after Lincoln was gone the republicans made the SUPER POWERFUL FEDERAL government permanent.
As far as your comments about arts and such dont forget the “Greatest Generation” was lead through WWII by DEMOCRATS NOT republicans. The nuclear bomb was brought into this world by DEMOCRATS not republicans. Democrats know how to handle security with responsibility. Republicans abuse the security issue for self gain.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:33 pmTerry your hair splitting is predictable. You’re so bright I shouldn’t have to state the obvious, but…clarification is sometimes necessary for those who have difficulty with connecting the dots. Tim McVeigh and Eric Rudolph were Americans who committed crimes domestically. For that they were tried and sentenced. But after our “cut and run” in Somalia, our luke-warm responses to the foriegn attacks instituted by alQuada, and the pitiful military response ordered by President Zipper Osama wasn’t impressed with our leadership vaccuum. He viewed us as weak and he was correct. Picturing President Bore handling the attacks of 9/11 (after Naomi Wolf gives him “manly” fashion tips). Roaring his outrage and deploying a bunch of investigators and lawyers is just too hideous to contemplate.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:37 pmDo you THINK Butterfly or Mighty
That mr bush or Mr Cheney can create a Simple HTML page, much less be given Executive Powers to abuse such as Nixon DID. I know that you think yourself very informed. Yet these men have neither the Technical or Knowledge to be able to, or need of shortcuttng the system. Thats called Rules and Laws.
Again Bush started his ‘Lists’ before 2001 or 9/11
Yet I can tell you that having worked at businesses doing just such things, Heck I could tell you, If I as your IT guy, every EMAIL and wep page that you sent or went to, what you uploaaded or photos downloaded, the phones are often tied into t1 lines, AND you would never EVEN know it.
Back on my computer, I have LOGS and LOGS and LOGS. And for a Business its all Legal,
Bushco has NO need to Circumvent the system and cover it up exept if he got caught with his hand in the Cookie Jar.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:37 pmBush By controlling the NSA, took them off other Duties for his Wild goose Chases into Iraq, Bushco Weakened National Security
#113 – “please tell me what the US was doing PRIOR to 9/11 to promulgate “hate” – okey doke.
Let’s see over to you Osama Bin Laden:
1. Presence of US forces in Saudi Arabia
2. Support for ME dictatorships – Egypt, Saudi Arabia etc
3. Iraqi sanctions
4. Double standards in Israel-Palestine dispute
Now you might think badly of me for using OBL as my evidence, but he has managed to put inspire an extensive dislike of the US using these totems…
January 31st, 2006 at 1:38 pm113,
They are half way around the world, if we had competence in intelligence and leadership, and the kind of resources placed in preventing terrorist acts here at home, as we do abroad, I think we all would be safe. Let the barbarians cut each others heads off. We shouldn’t have any part in the centuries old religious wars going on there. And if its not about the religious wars, its about oil, a whole other issue I am sure you would love to discuss.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:38 pmClearly, this is not conducive to what Gen. Michael Hayden,
Let’s see. This would be the guy who doesn’t know what is actually written in the Fourth amendment… And he is in charge of spying on us?
January 31st, 2006 at 1:39 pm#118 mr ho
Did I miss sometning, what are talking about? i was just asking the troll how Bush made us safer, since he claimed that Bush did.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:40 pmHey MAD Gannon CAME and Went in the Went House 200 Times, and the Records never Show Him Leaving.
thats how George Busch Weakens National Security
Right MaD ?
January 31st, 2006 at 1:41 pm##118 mr ho
Did I miss sometning, what are talking about? i was just asking the troll how Bush made us safer, since he claimed that Bush did.
Comment by Butterfly — January 31, 2006 @ 1:40 pm
mr ho apologize if I missed your troll sarcasm,
very well done though =)
January 31st, 2006 at 1:42 pmFrom mr ho
“Do you THINK Butterfly or Mighty”
Please do not put my name with the troll!!
January 31st, 2006 at 1:42 pmNo use responding to such BS statements. Anytime, anywhere, and anyone.
Comment by Tracy #84
Hey Trashy,
Didn’t you make a post a week or two ago about Al Qaeda being decimated or powerless or some other Bushite talking point?
Well it might interest you to know that one of the foreign journalists (I think he was an Aussie) on MSNBC upon being questioned about the ied that injured Woodruff and Voght exclaimed that what was happening on the ground in Iraq was “dire”…
He went on to explain that the insurgents were planting much more sophisticated ieds, using “laser technology” no less…
Then Al Zawahiri sends out a studio quality videotaped “warning” (complete with English subtitles), where he claims to be, “living amonst the people”…
hmmm…sounds like we got ‘em right where we want ‘em huh?
January 31st, 2006 at 1:44 pmMighty,
I would agree that our society has lots of problems, the movies, shows, media, greed, arrogance, decadence, etc. Which piss off the muslim world. You are correct. I would be dense to blame it on a single political party. However, the folks in charge right now, are just making it worse. There probably is no easy solution, any political party is vulnerable to influence, money, power, corruption. However, we are supposed to be more evolved, so we should have a more evolved approach to dealing with the barbarians. I bet if all the oil was in our country, we would have a different approach.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:45 pm#121 – so, let’s see: “Tim McVeigh and Eric Rudolph were Americans who committed crimes domestically” did you read the definition of a terrorist – someone who commits a act of intimidation or violence, without regard for the victim to try to force a political point? Are you telling me that Tim McVeigh was not a terrorist? Was he robbing the Starbucks and used a bit too much kung-fu? Your lack of consistency is very revealing, MA.
Then you must support the immediate release of US citizen Jose Padilla for illegal detention without recourse to habeas corpus and you must also support the necessity of obtaining warrants before wiretapping US citizens since you classify Tim McVeigh as a domestic criminal.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:46 pmLotta trolls today..=_X My bad
January 31st, 2006 at 1:46 pmScrew the trolls and the polls. The only poll that Boy George will have to face is the grand jury that indicts him and the courtroom jury that convicts him. He broke the law. Get it? Nuff said?
January 31st, 2006 at 1:48 pmPicturing President Bore handling the attacks of 9/11 (after Naomi Wolf gives him “manly†fashion tips). Roaring his outrage and deploying a bunch of investigators and lawyers is just too hideous to contemplate.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — January 31, 2006 @ 1:37 pm
January 31st, 2006 at 1:48 pm#133
That’s because they are scared, they know the jig is up!!
January 31st, 2006 at 1:49 pmHe viewed us as weak and he was correct.
Comment by mighty aphrodite #121
Puny Hermaphrodite,
Is that why Bushiva was able to stage that theatrically stirring landing on the aircraft carrier so soon after the Iraqi invasion, and declare “victory” with Clinton’s weak, gutted military having effectively routed the sheepherders of Baghdad?
You’re so fu*king dumb, I’ve more respect for elephant dung!
January 31st, 2006 at 1:49 pm
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:3s82NJNa2GugyM:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/76/Bushreadingthepetgoat.jpg/290px-Bushreadingthepetgoat.jpg
January 31st, 2006 at 1:49 pmSeriuosly does anyone know how to ask a poll question properly? I mean the question has only the option “before conducting wiretaps”. That is not the case. It is before or 72 hours after. Think that would change a few minds if “urgency” is their concern?
January 31st, 2006 at 1:49 pm#134 – Unfortunately, the “rule of law” only applies to Democrats.
Republicans are above the law. Wait, that’s not right, the Republicans ARE the law!
The next time anyone questions anything that a Republican does MUST remember that only THEY decide which laws are applicable to whom!
Double standards: Republican party rule #1!
January 31st, 2006 at 1:51 pmYeppers that Ol Bush is really Handling the Attacks, playing Golf Taking Vacations, Ya Know being COmmander In Chief.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:52 pmBush is Weakening National Security
#120 – Gerald – I feel SO much better after reading your (apparently) eyewitness account of the Civil War. And, whew, I’m really glad THIS isn’t a real war – or maybe it is, and you just haven’t caught up. You are absolutely right about the contributions of the “Greatest Generation” -growing up in the Great Depression and fighting WWII. But Gerald, ask yourself this – what choice did they have??? They had to do what they did – the beauty of the human spirit is the ability to reach heights thought unattainable and perserverance in the face of defeat.
“….but after Lincoln was gone the republicans made the SUPER POWERFUL FEDERAL government permanent.” Oh you mean habeus corpus was not restored, newpapers were censored by the EVIL Republicans and the IRS was in my handbag?? Gerald, I will say something you might NEVER be able to say – something positive about the opposite party – BRACE YOURSELF –
a.) FDR fought WWII with the intention of achieving victory. Playing footsy with Stalin was not a tier one call, but Hitler needed to be engaged on two fronts due to his superior weaponry.
b.) Bill Clinton did the right thing in Bosnia.
But I always manage to thank the “Greatest Generation” for bringing up kids after reading that moron Dr. Spock, and for the Social Security mess.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:52 pm79- Comes in spouting every Limbannity talking point, and then accuses TP of being partisan. If you weren’t so parrot-like, you might be amusing.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:54 pmWho in the HELL ever read Dr SPock?
Is that what Happened to you IRI as a Child that caused your anger and racisms?
January 31st, 2006 at 1:56 pmBigPapa – You are an excellent example of one of my dearly departed grandfather’s favourite sayings:
January 31st, 2006 at 1:57 pm“The use of vulgar language often replaces intelligent comment.”
You’re “arguments” (ha!) are pathetic…..
SuKa IRI
Quit listening to that garbage.
Are you still Listening to that Murdoch and Kristol Media BS the Standard Weekly and that other CRAP?
The High Brow Prop?
January 31st, 2006 at 1:58 pmHey Trolls….. Your president and party will be going down soon. Here is some evidence to the fact. Many experts are standing up, FINALLY, about the government being part of 9/11. It may not be now, but in the future your boys will be serving more than 8 years (Hopefully LIFE).
http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2006/1/emw339303.htm
January 31st, 2006 at 1:58 pmMrHoe – You knowledge of all-time book sales is ASTOUNDING…thank you for your “contributions”!!!!! We’re all so much better informed with you diligently trying to keep up.
January 31st, 2006 at 1:59 pm# 142
Now we have the blowhard Dr. Phil and a budget mess.
As to the war…I think what is trying to be said is that WWII was a declared war and a war that required the country as a whole to be directed to a goal…victory in Europe and the East. Now if you think you can compare what is happening now to that well, I think think you would be stretching it. Like from here to the moon. Was ot this country under the direct threat from a communist nation with massive amounts of nuclear warheads pointing at us at one time. That was called the Cold War. Was that a real war and did the president try and use fear and lies to grab more power for himself and spy on Americans and torture people, imprison people indefinately? Please think.
January 31st, 2006 at 2:00 pmIRI loves Reagan and His Osaama Bin Laden Freedom Fighters.
January 31st, 2006 at 2:00 pmReagan Weakened National Security by Supporting and Training Terrorists
These Republicans even lie to themselves. Check it out.
CNN
January 30, 2006
One plus one equals three in GOP leadership race
So, the Republicans think there are 28 ghost Republicans voting? Whacky Dee!
January 31st, 2006 at 2:01 pmNote to MR HOE – Reading the last line – only – of a post doen’t always allow you to decipher the premise. Bye for now…………..
January 31st, 2006 at 2:02 pmIs there any doubt in anybody’s mind that Bruce is wwallace?
Hell, I’m beginning to think that most of them are. About the same debating skills:
Obfuscate
Divert
Insult/Impugn
Blame Clinton
Repeat
Although, wally had that whole reflexive “bot” routine down.
January 31st, 2006 at 2:02 pmMrHoe – You knowledge of all-time book sales is ASTOUNDING…thank you for your “contributionsâ€!!!!! We’re all so much better informed with you diligently trying to keep up.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — January 31, 2006 @ 1:59
Bwwwhahaha, I know all about the RNC, and the Triumvirate, And the COS and the Other Rockefeller Conference of States.
Constitution killers, it was satted down before, and it will be again.
Its the Binaries such as yourself that have entropied my friend and have fallen far behind
January 31st, 2006 at 2:03 pmIt seems to be you that are trying to keep up IRI, for your Knowledge of Electronics, an spy programs, the Subect of this thread, is beyond your narrow political self serving agendas.
January 31st, 2006 at 2:06 pmGot another conumdrum for you, MA. Was this boming and act of a ‘domestic criminal’ or a ‘terrorist’?
January 31st, 2006 at 2:08 pmTell me IRI about these Programs of Wiretapping, and the computer Languages used, the programs that filter the data
Tell me IRI, you are “Smart” and Im stupid. Remember?
Tell me about why You IRI agree with a group of Senators that wish to Kill the Constitution, as I so diligently ‘try’ to keep up.
January 31st, 2006 at 2:11 pmIsn’t it interesting that they call themselves the majority, but there are eally only a couple of them that post under different names to make it appear as if there are more of them?
Poor trolls, their race is going extinct.
Sad little trolls.
From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
January 31st, 2006 at 2:12 pm
Here’s Matt Stoller’s summary of a recent Rasmussen poll on the subject, as posted on MyDD.
Sixty-four percent (64%) of Americans believe the National Security Agency (NSA) should be allowed to intercept telephone conversations between terrorism suspects in other countries and people living in the United States. A Rasmussen Reports survey found that just 23% disagree.
Sixty-eight percent (68%) of Americans say they are following the NSA story somewhat or very closely.
Just 26% believe President Bush is the first to authorize a program like the one currently in the news. Forty-eight percent (48%) say he is not while 26% are not sure.
Sixty-eight percent are paying attention. Sixty-four percent approve. Why? Because the pollster asked the right question in an honest way.
I’m beginning to believe that Rush may be right. You guys skew the polls in your direction to produce more liberal poll results – then you make the mistake of believing your own screwy poll numbers.
Eventually this program will undergo judicial review. When the courts confirm that the program is legal, most Americans will celbrate while you eat crow.
January 31st, 2006 at 2:12 pmMr ho wants to kno IRI
January 31st, 2006 at 2:12 pmDoes Bush understand Wiretapps?
Is he a Professional at Filtering Wiretaps?
Can bush even operate a Computer?
Bush Weakens National Securitywith warrantless wiretaps
#131 – One tidbit before meeting – For Truth – you sound terrbily sweet….and naive. My point wasn’t about the American culture that the barbarians say they dislike – except when they’re drinking and enjoying strip clubs, etc. They hate Israel and her ally – US. The point is – these are not people you CAN reason with – try as you might….
Terry McVeigh was a vicious, cruel mass murderer, who hated his government And he got his just desserts. Jose Padilla should be treated as a conspirator and traitor… and shot – after his trial, of course.
January 31st, 2006 at 2:13 pmYou are a dumbass. WE WANT TERRORISTS SPIED ON. WE WANT IT DONE LEGALLY. WHAT THE FVCK DON’T YOU GET.
January 31st, 2006 at 2:14 pmTerry – bottom paragraph of 161 is for you – later….
January 31st, 2006 at 2:14 pmmighty aphrodite,
You need to keep your domestic terrorists straight.
Timothy McVeigh
January 31st, 2006 at 2:16 pmTerry Nickols
Poll shmoll. It was against the law.
January 31st, 2006 at 2:17 pmI’m not seeing how public opinion makes a difference.
BSR – Once again you are WRONG! There is not any question to the fact that Bush should be listening to call from/to foreign counties to fight terrorism.
The QUESTION IS: “Can Bush wiretap calls without a warrant”
This is where ALL of the poles show that AMERICANS, real ones, feel that Bush is breaking the law.
Once again, YOU ARE TWISTING THE POLL. Wiretapping WITHOUT A WARRANT is the item of issue. Not that Bush should or should not be wiretapping calls to and from other countries.
January 31st, 2006 at 2:19 pm#142 mighty aphrodite
I can indeed praise the other side. When growing up anytime I was asked “what I was” in the politics world I said republican with zero pause. I didnt know any democrats. I still to this day feel pride when I see a film of Reagan saying “Tear down this wall!” or seeing him smiling and walking next to gorbachev talking about how to denuclearize the planet. I teared up a bit when I saw he had died. I am very much in support of the right to bear arms. I am very much against the overly liberalized hollywood pushing the idea of children having sex or having abortions without their parents consent. Conservatives are not all wrong. But when conservatism crosses over to fascism then all else must be put aside until the fascism is dead.
I was not there first hand in the civil war, but I love this country so much that I made myself do alot of reading about our history. The republicans DID keep the federal government powers. Not all. But far too many. I suggest you do some reading. The IRS is what it is today because of those republicans. Hemp is illegal because of those republicans and their federalist system they kept in place. WACO happened because of those federal laws. Vietnam happened because of those federal powers that the republicans made permanent. Many of the things the conservatives hate about big government are the very same things that those federalist laws permit.
And here is another fig leaf to you and your kind from me… Bill Clinton fucked up and sacrificed the lives of those men in Mogadishu because he was afraid of the political backlash. Those men DESERVED far better. They wanted gun ships and they deserved those gun ships even if those gun ships cut down every man, woman, and child in that city and the whole world screamed bloody murder. Clinton should have just told them all to go screw themselves because he isnt going to send in his men to die. Clinton is NOT perfect (and I dont mean sex). But Clinton was not to be feared. Bush and his kind ARE to be feared. They are the kind that took away Romes senate and left the people with an emporer. Is this what you want for America? In the name of security? I dont think Reagan would EVER have done what Bush has done. I dont think Reagan was deeply tied in with the zionists like the neo cons are. I remember reading something Dick Chenney said about Reagan after he first met him … He said he didnt like Reagan. He didnt like the way Reagan talked. Reagan seemed to fair with “the other side”. Bush+Cheney are no Reagan. Reagan was a republican. Bush/Cheney are neocons … they are barely even Americans let alone republicans.
As far as social security..I am not sure what you are saying there… the people that had to suffer through the results of the gambling on the stock markets (the great depression) wanted the social security system. It was their protection from capitalists gambling on the stock market. The social security system would be much larger and much more flush with cash and would include national health care and many other things if the republicans were not fighting it at every turn because according to them FDR was a communist…
January 31st, 2006 at 2:29 pmYes Lets talk about Bush Spying before 911
Yet another neglected fact in all this is that it did begin before 9.11.01.
January 31st, 2006 at 2:32 pm“Tim McVeigh and Eric Rudolph were Americans who committed crimes domestically. mighty aphrodite”
Here’s the partisan brain at work. The poor republican partisan accuses others of splitting hairs, while they label everyone they don’t like as ‘terrorist’ or ‘terrorist sympathizers’ – including pascifist quakers – all the while simply calling their fundamentalist republican partisan bomber friends ‘criminals’.
Sweetie, there are crazy people, criminal and even ‘terrorists’ in every group, and especially among the hardcore partisans such as yourself. The term terrorist is now commonly applied to ‘vandals’, and yet you can’t use it against fellow republicans who murdered children?
Poor thing, I pity you and the partisan world you live in. See I realize that you, and even Rudolph are my fellow americans. I don’t agree with you sometimes, just like I don’t agree with democratic politicians or many democrats on every issue. But I can tell you that partisans such as yourself are very saddening to see. Despite your best intentions, you’re truly crippled in your ability to see how silly, emotional and irrational you are. I’m sure you’re a good american, and probably even a decent wife and mom – but today you’re just another lost partisan.
I forgive you though – hatred won’t solve the problem, just as your partisan anger won’t save you pumpkin.
January 31st, 2006 at 2:37 pmThe respondants who think illegal wiring tapping is fine are fools and I’ll tell them why. First of all no-one is above the law, not even the President. Second, if there are no checks on the wiring tapping, how do you know they aren’t violtating the law? Third, there have been numerous times in the past where the FBI spied on citizens during the Hoover period. Would you as a citizen like to have the NSA listening to your phone calls? You may think that you conversations aren’t criminal, but they can always find something to charge you with.
For example I read yesterdays local newspaper only to discover that the Police were trying to arrest people for not returning rented video on time. One person had a 200 dollar late fee, but that still shouldn’t be a crime. What happens when they make a mistake and don’t process you returned video and the computer shows it still out to you? Don’t tell me that doesn’t happen, because it happened to me twice in the last year. I had returned the video, but someone forget to enter it in the computer. Fortunately for me I happened to remember the lady who was there that day because I talked to her about a problem with the video and she remembered me talking to her.
So you see my fellow Americans of too much faith in government, trust not until you verify. Wasn’t it Ronald Reagan would said not to truth big government? Wasn’t he against Big government? They claim they loved Ronald Reagan, but I dare anyone to find one speech he gave indicating he thought it was ok for the government to spy on citizens.
This whole spying things stinks and looks too much like Big Brother to me. Wake up America before it’s too late! Don’t let political party affliation get in the way of common sense. If I wanted the government to know everything I did, I’d move to Russia. Think back, this is the kind of thing Ronald Reagan accused the Soviet Union of when he was President. We are about to become a Police State and half the fools in this Country are voluntarily going right down that dark path to no freedom from Government intrusion.
So just go right ahead and support this first step to a total lose of freedom. That flag that you have on your house is about to mean absolutely nothing. George Washington didn’t fight the British for this George to impose the same rules Britian had over two hundred years ago. How many Veterans have died to protect the Constitution? If we continued to go down this dangerous path, they will have died in vain. Before you start attacking me, I’m a veteran who stood up for your freedom too. If I don’t have a right to speak out who does? That’s why I care so much about my Country.
Remember that statement, “Those who forget the past, are doomed to repeat it”. You as an American citizen are always supposed to stand up against tiranny, whether foreign or domestic. When I took the oath for the Military, I swore the protect and defend the Constituion of the United States just like our current leaders. I’m no longer in the Military, but it’s my duty to speak out when I feel something threatens our liberty. This is America! Don’t let politics get in the way of your better judgement. I am not taking the side of any of the two parties. I’m speaking as a patriot. I will never stand by and let me beloved America become like the Soviet Union was without speaking up.
January 31st, 2006 at 2:38 pm#164, Well Spudge, MA is fuzzy on her application of the definition of terror and who is a terrorist. From what I can gather, we have this so far from her today:
1. Jose Padilla should be shot for allegedly raising money for Islamic fundamentalists – apparently MA says he is a terrorist, though he is a US citizen arrested on US soil and held for three years without charge.
2. Terry Nichols and Tim McVeigh and Eric Rudolph are only domestic criminals – the difference between them and the 19 hijackers only seems to be that they are/were US citizens
Now stay with me here:
MA states that “Terry [huh?] McVeigh was a vicious, cruel mass murderer, who hated his government And he got his just desserts” – so a citizen of a country who disagrees with his government a kills to make his point is just a criminal, not a terrorist.
SOOO, by MA’s logic there are no terrorists in Iraq right now – since they appear to be following the ‘domestic crime’ model of Tim McVeigh.
MA, you reduced your argument to the point of absurdity. You simply can’t brand McVeigh and Rudolph domestic criminals unless you support the use of criminal investigative tools to deal with crime and therefore support the necessity to obtain warrants when spying on US citizens in the US. Either McVeigh, Nichols and Rudolph are terrorists or you agree that President Bush broke the law and lied about it… Your position is absurd…
Have a look at the BBC link I sent you and see what you think – terrorist – or domestic criminal. And can you tell me why, please?
January 31st, 2006 at 2:45 pmThe barbarians of the Arabian world detest the loyalty of the US to our ally, Israel. So, I guess if you want to just consider their 7th century viewpoint and turn our backs on our best Mid-EAst ally…
Just like the old Chevron commercial: do some people cling to over-simplistic viewpoints that reinforce a preconceived belief? People do… Clearly your 11th century viewpoint is far superior, and has provided all the ansewrs you need.
And why exactly does “our best Mid-East ally” keep spying on us?
January 31st, 2006 at 2:47 pmNow we’re minimally at
3 Terry
0 mighty aphrodite
Although I’m sure the score is much higher for Terry. Now Terry that’s what happens when your brain actually functions and isn’t a partisan brain on endorphine drugs. Your points were rational, articulate, well thought out and reasoned. Compare that to our mighty friend that were inconsistent, emotional, fearful, hysterical, irrational and just plain silly.
It’s OK mighty, I still love you. I know you mean well, you just can’t think clearly right now. You remind of the meth kids in the trailer parks that always talk about the spiders crawling over them. Those spiders are real to them, just like all of the terrorists who want to get you in your sleep. Drugs have a way of making people irrational sweetie, your drug just happens to be partisan fear. I do appreciate you posting though, it’s good for people to see how destructive the partisan brain is on people’s brains. Poor pumpkin.
January 31st, 2006 at 2:55 pm“The barbarians of the Arabian world detest the loyalty of the US to our ally, Israel. So, I guess if you want to just consider their 7th century viewpoint and turn our backs on our best Mid-EAst ally…I don’t. mighty aphrodite”
Would those be the same arabs who saved the works of Greece and Rome from the ‘Christian’ barbarians of europe? Or would that be the same arabs like Ibn Sina (Avicenna) who are credited with the european renaissance?
Sweetie without those arabs, no Renaissance, no Columbus, no America, and no mighty aphrodite. Those arabs are directly responsible for your very existence pumpkin – and all you can do is kick sand in their faces.
You have such an angry and emotional partisan brain sweetie. It doesn’t become you pumpkin.
January 31st, 2006 at 2:58 pmPicturing President Bore handling the attacks of 9/11
Yeah, he might have actually thought capturing Bin Laden was necessary (you know, the guy that actually was involved in the 9.11 attacks), attacking Iraq was a diversion of resources from that endeavor (kinda like attacking Bolivia after Pearl Harbor), and maybe gotten tough with the Saudis about funding terrorism (we see how well Bush has gotten them to). Now I know for a fact you are completely full of shit if you have to use a hypothetical Gore presidency to prop up your boy in the White House. Keep building that straw man.
January 31st, 2006 at 2:58 pmSixty-eight percent are …blah blah blah you eat crow.
Hey kettle, you’re black too.
Love,
Pot
Yeah, gotta love the way those questions are framed.
January 31st, 2006 at 3:12 pm#171 so looking at Eric Rudolph now for a change. 1996, Atlanta bombing. At least two people died, over a hundred were injured.
Now let’s live in Aphrodite World for a moment. in Aphrodite World, the act is an act of domestic crime, since the perp was a US citizen angry at the policies (abortion-rights) of his government. So far so good, you catch Eric Rudolph (patiently looking for him for years), stick him a court room and put him away for murder.
Now let’s live in Bush World. The act is an act of ‘terra’ and ‘we’ll smoke em out’. Enter one Richard Jewell, who in days goes from hero to prime suspect. In Bush World, he need not be charged, he need not have access to a lawyer, because ‘I’m a war president, I make decisions in the White House with war on my mind’. Just like Jose Padilla, Richard Jewell finds himself in a Navy bring in Virgina, no civil rights, the US constitution for him is suspended indefinitely. After a few years, the IRS finds that he may have forgotten to declare some taxes and he is arraigned in court for tax evasion, just before his case of habeas corpus lands in the Supreme Court.
But of course Richard Jewel was exonerated completely, although his life was in ruins.
So MA, we’re glad you support the use of the laws of the land in dealing with domestic terrorism, because in Bushworld, you could be the next Richard Jewell.
January 31st, 2006 at 3:32 pmWhether 5% or 95% of Americans are frightened into thinking Bush&co. are the only ones who can protect them using whatever means they deem necessary, it really doesn’t matter. The fact is that warrantless searching is prohibited by the Constitution. Bush acknowledged so last year, saying “you gotta get a search warrant,” yet being fully aware at the time that he was doing so without said warrant. He knowingly broke the law and lied to the public about it.
January 31st, 2006 at 3:43 pmHis AG first denied having skirted the law, then admitted doing so because his interpretation of the law allowed it. Bush recently said “a whole bunch of lawyers” from the Justice Department said it was OK (his apointees).
My point is that the Constitution has prevailed through 2 world wars, and two “conflicts” in the past 100 years, but this White House has deemed it a “goddamned piece of paper,” and FISA is “outdated”.
So ask Congress to tweak FISA. Bush chose not to ask – we speculate that he didn’t ask because his requests would be rejected out of hand (spying on Americans, like Quakers, environmentalists and peace demonstrators through “fishing” expeditions).
Bush has broken the law. His AG has lied under oath.
What more does the Congress need before acting — were they waiting for the favorable majority in the SCOTUS to be in place?
“Emergency†72-hour intercepts require sign-offs by NSA lawyers and pre-approval by the attorney general before surveillance can be initiated. Clearly, this is not conducive to what Gen. Michael Hayden, principal deputy director of national intelligence, calls “hot pursuit†of al Qaeda conversations.
Comment by Ben — January 31, 2006 @ 11:55 am
Mr ho say ben Correct, but bush started his warrantless spying before 911 or his 2002 ‘Emergency’ authorizing.
January 31st, 2006 at 3:53 pmnot to mention that 911 happened even though BUSH was spying illegally.
The Argument that Bush is above the law for the reasons he states, SHOWs exactly the opposite.
The barbarians of the Arabian world detest the loyalty of the US to our ally, Israel. So, I guess if you want to just consider their 7th century viewpoint and turn our backs on our best Mid-EAst ally…
If ISRAEL were our ALLIE they wouldnt be sneaking around and spying with AIPAC and financing all these CLOAKED non-partisan think tanks and other Obvious dupes such as Abramoff and Delay.
You dont GET protection by or Respect BY LYING and STEALING.
THATS WHY I am against the ISRAELI politics of ‘False Flag’ Operations, and not the ISRAELI People themselves.
THIS crap has gone on for 40 + years over a section of dried UP dessert.
We give Israel 10 billion a year in Aid, and they spend it on Spys?
January 31st, 2006 at 4:04 pmI’m beginning to believe that Rush may be right. You guys skew the polls in your direction to produce more liberal poll results – then you make the mistake of believing your own screwy poll numbers.
Rush is always ‘half right’, such is his misleading statements time and time again, the fact that your here, and that you ‘believe’ that everyone else here is a Democrat or a Liberal or whatever Code Word Rush has you repeating this Week, shows that you assumption is off base.
And Ill ask you the Same Question as other People, Like IRI or MAD. What do you Know of Modern Computer Protocols and Signals Intelligence and what is and what is not collected?
January 31st, 2006 at 4:16 pmDo you think Bush knows, by Posing in front of a Camera, whos a Terrorist? I dont even Know if George Can operate a Computer.
So George Has NO way of Gaining Intelligence, unless Someone GIVES him a Name right? Cheney? Some guy at the Golf Course Told Bush that the Peace Activists (this is true Domestic) needed spying on because they made an Anti-war website?
or Posted a Message, an OPINION mind you, somewhere?
#181, Mr Ho, what’s your position on the USS Liberty Incident? Terrible accident or the act of a US ally? Or perhaps an act or terror?
January 31st, 2006 at 4:24 pmGuess Bruce (6th comment) hasn’t heard about the quagmire Dubya has stirred up in the Middle East. Guess he hasn’t heard about the hotbed of terrorism in Iraq. Guess he prefers to live in a bubble. Yeah, Bruce, I feel really safe having that nitwit in charge. But you think what you want. Maybe your delusions will let you sleep at night.
January 31st, 2006 at 4:28 pmInterristing that when presented with FACTS
The populace Hell NO!
With the utterance of those magic words,
January 31st, 2006 at 5:45 pm“Terrorists, Sadamists, WMD and National Security”
His populace turned numb so as the BushCo
Can wage a war against an ideal.
Don’t let the delusional wingnut trolls get you upset. They really do have lower IQ’s, and they honestly believe in King George just like good little subjects/sheep. Yes, let’s turn on the boob tube tonight and watch the Grand Master of delusion and illusion twist and maneuver through another insidious performance. A real demagogue. Y’all have fun now!
January 31st, 2006 at 5:46 pmThis administration has us deep into a national nightmare and the here and now in so many ways reminds me of Germany in the late 30’s.
Even if somehow we beat the rigged voting and took back congress what good would impeachment do? Cheney is even more evil and a lot smarter then Dubya (almost anyone is). The next few steps down the line aren’t good either.
The financial situation for regular people is bad and going to get worse under Bush. His insane action against Iraq has killed so many and mained many time more. The result? Iraq is a mess and is not going to be a democracy, and this action has been as great a recruiting tool as the terrorists could ever imagine. I fear we are going to take another big hit sooner rather than later, and this time we may lose a city. History, if there is any going forward, is not going to treat Bush kindly, and many people will forever regret being duped into voting for him.
We need to take our country back.
January 31st, 2006 at 6:20 pmTerry, I’m sure you’d make a fine defense attorney along with that other paragon, Ramsey Clark. Watched him on C-SPAN last night with the mother of professional mourners, Cindy Sheehan. I do hope it’s more than a rumour that she challenge Dianne Feinstein in our primary. What fun!!!
I do apologize for erroneously changing Tim McVeigh’s first name to that of Mr. Turtle’s. Maybe we should treat the poor maligned terrorists as the misunderstood patriots some on the left see them as. And if they blow up innocent people in the works, it was the will of Allah – or so says binLaden.
January 31st, 2006 at 7:13 pmComment by mighty aphrodite
Cindy is a mother that has found a cause. That is all.
It’s face is that of the BushCO.
Does that make her evil.
What if her son died in an auto accident that was the probable cause of the manufacturer? Would you still lable her The mother of proffessional mourners?
Yea,
January 31st, 2006 at 7:47 pmBFD.
Her cause has a face that lies with the enemy. And to her, she HAS to be big. remember, she’s the little guy in her cause.
well, i for one am VERY tired of the 30-40% of america that still choose to view this issue from the perspective of a battered spouse — i.e. ‘yea, sometimes s/he lies or treats me badly, but who’s going to PROTECT me?’ … with the administration as the batterer, who knows that as long as those fears are played upon and manipulated, the battered individual won’t choose to get out of the abusive relationship.
hi aphrotripey, how are the hitler youth doing? have you taught them how to say ‘heil cheney’ yet?
January 31st, 2006 at 8:00 pm“I do apologize for erroneously changing Tim McVeigh’s first name to that of Mr. Turtle’s. Maybe we should treat the poor maligned terrorists as the misunderstood patriots some on the left see them as. And if they blow up innocent people in the works, it was the will of Allah – or so says binLaden.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — January 31, 2006 @ 7:13 pm “
So what you’re saying is that when Tim and the other ‘misunderstood patriots’ killed those innocent children in Oklahoma – it wasn’t an act of terrorism? Ah poor thing – how anger, hatred and hysteria has polluted that big brain of yours. I forgive you pumpkin – you’re clearly not firing with all of your pistons today.
January 31st, 2006 at 8:03 pmCome on MA, don’t cave in on me – why don’t you answer my other examples? There’s still at least two more twists in the wind you can take.
I found another question for you: why is it that 50% of Iraqis think attacks on the US forces in Iraq are justified?
If the insurgency is simply a crime wave with no legitimacy per our Tim McVeigh/Eric Rudolph model, why would 50% of the population (including the Kurds and southern Shiites) support this crime wave? How would you undermine this insurgency without resorting to I-RightArmRaised-Is nuclear solution?
You can’t defeat a popular uprising until you know why it is popular…..
January 31st, 2006 at 8:06 pm“And if they blow up innocent people in the works, it was the will of Allah – or so says binLaden.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — January 31, 2006 @ 7:13 pm “
Why are you quoting Bin Laden sweetie, is that from the patriots handbook of misunderstood leaders you read from as well? Didn’t Bush say Bin Laden isn’t a priority – does that mean he’s now a friend of republicans like the Saudi and Pakistanis? I’m just curious since you guys change alliances and allegiences so fluidly, and call people your freedom fighters one day, and your terrorists the next – I’m never sure.
Please enlighten me oh mighty one – when did you become the spokesperson again for Bin Laden?
And I forgive you for being too partisan to admit that partisan republican terrorists have killed so many americans. I know that information can’t make it through the partisan barriers – and I forgive you for your partisan brain. You can’t help yourself pumpkin – like all druggies – it isn’t your fault.
January 31st, 2006 at 8:06 pmTerry,
The partisans like Mighty don’t even know why there’s a popular revolt under way in this country – how could they possible process information about Iraq. It requires the reasoning centers to be active after all.
That’s why these guys are still stuck in Clinton, Roosevelt and Lincoln era data. The present and current reality is beyond their absorption ability.
It’s important for us to love, forgive and understand that these are weak and broken people. They are easily intimidated with fear, anger, hatred and bigotry into doing and saying things that a rational sane mind never would. Poor things.
January 31st, 2006 at 8:10 pmOh and kidnapping people’s wives and children tends not to work too – I’m not going to even mention whether it is wrong or not, but is it smart?
Oh crap, I’m off topic again – sorry.
January 31st, 2006 at 8:10 pmFreedom fries……..these suckers should be behind bars for life. No electrocution. RNC (Rot Now Chimp)
January 31st, 2006 at 8:31 pmA little reality check: Bush Loyalists are in the minority. Recent polls show that about 2/3s of the country does not support him and his agenda. If you are on the side of the Loyalists, you are in the minority. The majority defines the American people. The American people stand in opposition to the Loyalists and their preference for the Unitary Executive and his desire to rule the country, making them on the side of the historic divide that existed at the beginning of our great country known as the Patriots. The Patriots then, and now, reject the Unitary Executive with the name of George. We stand with and adhere to the declarations of the Patria, the Founding Fathers — upholding such documents as the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and the Federalist papers. Loyalists to George should re-examine their positions. Time after time the American Patriots have beaten them back — it is inevitable that We the People shall do it again.
January 31st, 2006 at 10:20 pmI am really surprised by the lengths wingnuts will go to to convince themselves our fascist government is a good thing. it doesn’t take much to lead them blindly around by the nose,… but hey they are happy, give them a toaster and they could have a nice battle for IQ supremacy.
January 31st, 2006 at 10:40 pmYou won’t see Chris Matthew changing his tune about the wiretapping issue being a plus for the Administration because he only listens to the Administration. This and many other polls show Americans are AGAINST domestic wiretapping without a warrant. No one wants to tie the hands of this or any Administration in investigating terrorist suspects that’s why the FISA court was formed. If people are of legitimate concern then listen in but get a warrant. Follow the process. Our Constitution, which our elected officials swore to support and defend (they aren’t supposed to replace the Constitution with Bush [cult of personality much?])gives persons in the U.S. rights. The 4th amendment protects us from unreasonable searchs and siezures and MANDATES that warrants be used so that there is a review of the actions of the Executive, thats the way our Democracy is supposed to work. We have three coequal branches of government that are supposed to perform the function of checks and balances. We DO NOT have a King.
Matthews licks Bush’s magic …. slippers?
P.S. Since Bush came into office it’s OK to arrest someone for wearing a T-Shirt like they did Cindy Sheehan tonight. What happened to the 1st Amendment? Watch the MSM make her the bad guy. Have we fallen through the looking glass or what?
January 31st, 2006 at 11:34 pmTo mwtoo:
The reason the Bushies can get away with these breaches of the Constitution (besides now having a packed court) and have convinced the right wing nuts that Fascism is OK is because most of them were home schooled using that old time religion (that’s where my family evolved from now we actually learn about science). When you don’t have any exposure to civics or explanations of how our government works you believe ‘the father,’ in this case Bush, will protect you. And if ‘the father’ is only interested in scaring you (it only took Bush a couple of minutes in invoke 9/11 tonight)into submission… well you do the math. It adds up to ‘we the sheeple’ instead of ‘we the people.’
January 31st, 2006 at 11:55 pmWashington Post article pased below: “study found that supporters of President Bush and other conservatives had stronger self-admitted and implicit biases against blacks than liberals did.” Another sad fact about CONSERVATIVES/REPUBLICANS.
Study Ties Political Leanings to Hidden Biases
By Shankar Vedantam
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, January 30, 2006; A05
Put a group of people together at a party and observe how they behave. Differently than when they are alone? Differently than when they are with family? What if they’re in a stadium instead of at a party? What if they’re all men?
The field of social psychology has long been focused on how social environments affect the way people behave. But social psychologists are people, too, and as the United States has become increasingly politically polarized, they have grown increasingly interested in examining what drives these sharp divides: red states vs. blue states; pro-Iraq war vs. anti-Iraq war; pro-same-sex marriage vs. anti-same-sex marriage. And they have begun to study political behavior using such specialized tools as sophisticated psychological tests and brain scans.
“In my own family, for example, there are stark differences, not just of opinion but very profound differences in how we view the world,” said Brenda Major, a psychologist at the University of California at Santa Barbara and the president of the Society for Personality and Social Psychology, which had a conference last week that showcased several provocative psychological studies about the nature of political belief.
The new interest has yielded some results that will themselves provoke partisan reactions: Studies presented at the conference, for example, produced evidence that emotions and implicit assumptions often influence why people choose their political affiliations, and that partisans stubbornly discount any information that challenges their preexisting beliefs.
Emory University psychologist Drew Westen put self-identified Democratic and Republican partisans in brain scanners and asked them to evaluate negative information about various candidates. Both groups were quick to spot inconsistency and hypocrisy — but only in candidates they opposed.
When presented with negative information about the candidates they liked, partisans of all stripes found ways to discount it, Westen said. When the unpalatable information was rejected, furthermore, the brain scans showed that volunteers gave themselves feel-good pats — the scans showed that “reward centers” in volunteers’ brains were activated. The psychologist observed that the way these subjects dealt with unwelcome information had curious parallels with drug addiction as addicts also reward themselves for wrong-headed behavior.
Another study presented at the conference, which was in Palm Springs, Calif., explored relationships between racial bias and political affiliation by analyzing self-reported beliefs, voting patterns and the results of psychological tests that measure implicit attitudes — subtle stereotypes people hold about various groups.
That study found that supporters of President Bush and other conservatives had stronger self-admitted and implicit biases against blacks than liberals did.
“What automatic biases reveal is that while we have the feeling we are living up to our values, that feeling may not be right,” said University of Virginia psychologist Brian Nosek, who helped conduct the race analysis. “We are not aware of everything that causes our behavior, even things in our own lives.”
Brian Jones, a spokesman for the Republican National Committee, said he disagreed with the study’s conclusions but that it was difficult to offer a detailed critique, as the research had not yet been published and he could not review the methodology. He also questioned whether the researchers themselves had implicit biases — against Republicans — noting that Nosek and Harvard psychologist Mahzarin Banaji had given campaign contributions to Democrats.
“There are a lot of factors that go into political affiliation, and snap determinations may be interesting for an academic study, but the real-world application seems somewhat murky,” Jones said.
Nosek said that though the risk of bias among researchers was “a reasonable question,” the study provided empirical results that could — and would — be tested by other groups: “All we did was compare questions that people could answer any way they wanted,” Nosek said, as he explained why he felt personal views could not have influenced the outcome. “We had no direct contact with participants.”
For their study, Nosek, Banaji and social psychologist Erik Thompson culled self-acknowledged views about blacks from nearly 130,000 whites, who volunteered online to participate in a widely used test of racial bias that measures the speed of people’s associations between black or white faces and positive or negative words. The researchers examined correlations between explicit and implicit attitudes and voting behavior in all 435 congressional districts.
The analysis found that substantial majorities of Americans, liberals and conservatives, found it more difficult to associate black faces with positive concepts than white faces — evidence of implicit bias. But districts that registered higher levels of bias systematically produced more votes for Bush.
“Obviously, such research does not speak at all to the question of the prejudice level of the president,” said Banaji, “but it does show that George W. Bush is appealing as a leader to those Americans who harbor greater anti-black prejudice.”
Vincent Hutchings, a political scientist at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, said the results matched his own findings in a study he conducted ahead of the 2000 presidential election: Volunteers shown visual images of blacks in contexts that implied they were getting welfare benefits were far more receptive to Republican political ads decrying government waste than volunteers shown ads with the same message but without images of black people.
Jon Krosnick, a psychologist and political scientist at Stanford University, who independently assessed the studies, said it remains to be seen how significant the correlation is between racial bias and political affiliation.
For example, he said, the study could not tell whether racial bias was a better predictor of voting preference than, say, policy preferences on gun control or abortion. But while those issues would be addressed in subsequent studies — Krosnick plans to get random groups of future voters to take the psychological tests and discuss their policy preferences — he said the basic correlation was not in doubt.
“If anyone in Washington is skeptical about these findings, they are in denial,” he said. “We have 50 years of evidence that racial prejudice predicts voting. Republicans are supported by whites with prejudice against blacks. If people say, ‘This takes me aback,’ they are ignoring a huge volume of research.”
February 1st, 2006 at 12:10 am“Obviously, such research does not speak at all to the question of the prejudice level of the president,†said Banaji, “but it does show that George W. Bush is appealing as a leader to those Americans who harbor greater anti-black prejudice.â€
Comment by peggy #200…from the WaPo article
Wow!
Bushites are by and large racists…
hmmmm…
February 1st, 2006 at 9:19 amYou’re “arguments†(ha!) are pathetic…..
Comment by mighty aphrodite #145
Puny Hermaphrodite,
…sorta like “you’re”(sic) writing skills…huh?
February 1st, 2006 at 9:23 amTerry – I do enjoy your mental agility. But you seem to think that the enemy we face now should be handled with the same tactics and ballistics that warriors have always relied on – generally when only the weaponry changed, not the tactics.
When the charges and words spouted here at TP sound eerily like the words of Ayman AlZawahiri and Osama binLaden, I shudder at the intentional or naive cooperation these barbarians receive from fellow citizens.
I am reminded that a broken watch is correct twice a day.
February 1st, 2006 at 11:47 amThis blog is nuts. I’ve seen 200 plus years covered here…everyone’s faults, everyone’s gains and a lot of accusing..but where is this going?
February 1st, 2006 at 8:03 pmWhy are sooo many just terrified by wire tapping? Do people out here really think the administration is listening in on your phone sex calls? What, grandma’s bunyons will be talked about with the Joint Cheifs? I’m sure you guys talking about the last chick you picked up will not reach the morning edition of the Wall Street Journal. This is not an apathetic rant. Presidents, whichever party they belong to have had to make these type of decisions for years. Roosevelts’ detention of the Japanese, Truman’s dropping of the bombs, the firing of McArthur, all have had significant criticism. None,however have had to put up with the kind of scrutiny we see now with the internet. The technology has existed for years to surveil every type of transmission and it has been used generously. Why, everyones darling, Billy himself was not exempt from this, nor was he even exempt from making those tough calls. Bill and Hillary ruthlessly tore away at their critics from the safety of the White House, using domestic, not international survellience. Ole’ bill even kept those convenient FBI files at his fingertips while he sold Lincolns bedroom to the highest bidder. Funny though, I don’t seem to catch too
much of those little trinkets from most of the authors here. I for one do not fear anything that doesn’t concern me personally as I have nothing to hide.
Also, while I’m at it, I’d like to correct some falsities flying around:
1) The recession actually started in March, 2000,not 2001. Recessions take a full 12- 18 months to fully adhere. 9-11 magnified an already failing economy which the dotcoms so eagerly started.
2) Richard Jewell is now a Law Enforcement Officer and has been compensated for his turmoil. He is doing ok now, just in case anyone’s wondering.
3) Democrats keep losing elections. After reading half of this trash, I see why.
4) Nazis burn books, shoot people in the middle of the street and promote genocide. Many of you writers may be young and enthusiastic but please educate yourselves before spouting off ignorant and inflammitory statements.
5) The atomic bomb was not created by the Democrats. The development of this most terrible weapon was actually created by immigrants, mostly Germans and Jews who could not stand to see Hitler with this kind of power.
6) It seems that without a threat that’s ” in your face”, most of you have resigned to the fact that our Government is a threat. Interesting. Do you people always need a scapegoat if you actually can’t see the threat? The threat to our way of life has existed for many years, even before Ole’ Bill reinvented the word “pantywaist”. The well funded, highly educated and technical organization OBL has put together threatens every man, woman and child on this planet, not just us. It seems too many people on these blogs only live to serve themselves, taking a blind eye to an invisible enemy yearning for our destruction. Show me how smart you are and take this threat seriously.
7) Vietnam, the most costly war in our lifetime was started, funded and escalated by the Democrats. A Republican got us out. The same Republican reviled by the Democrats. Astounding!
8) The Bill of Rights doesn’t give you a huge set of balls, a very powerful and meaningful military does. Teddy Roosevelt would have agreed with this.
9) Finally, for most of you folks out on this blog, just grow a set and stop thinking everything in life within this Country is guaranteed to you. Far too many great people have shed blood so you wussies can go about your arrogant and vanity filled lives without an ounce of common sense. By the way, I am a Democrat and have been for 49 years. Good Day.
I’d like to hear from the people who have had thier rights violated by these wiretaps. the admin. isn’t spying on domestic to domestic calls. its international to domestic,
February 1st, 2006 at 8:32 pmwith phone numbers gathered from known terrorist’s cellphones or books. If my nieghbor is getting calls from, someone with ties to any terrorist organization that has called for the destruction of this nation, i want to know why. Wrong number OK. any other calls found, put’em away.
Even President Bush thinks you should get a warrant, well unless he is a liar.
More than two years after he started the NSA’s domestic spying without warrants, Bush was unequivocal. During a speech in Buffalo on April 20, 2004, he said: “Any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires – a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we’re talking about chasing down terrorists, we’re talking about getting a court order before we do so.”
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/013006O.shtml
February 2nd, 2006 at 2:34 amClubgitmo,
It’s always black and white for you idiots, isn’t it?
“If my nieghbor (sic) is getting calls from, someone with ties to any terrorist organization that has called for the destruction of this nation, i want to know why. Wrong number OK. any other calls found, put’em away.”
PROBLEMS WITH YOUR SIMPLISTIC WORLDVIEW:
And who decides what organizations are “terrorist” and which are not? We’ve killed 30,000 Iraqi civilians by Bushco’s lowball estimate. Does that make us terrorists? The governement spies on Greenpeace and PETA — are they terrorists?
How about getting a warrant? We have due process in this country so that government power (especially executive branch power) has some checks and balances. If it is a terrorist you’re listening in on, you’ll have no problem getting a warrant (under FISA, you can even get the warrant 72 hours later, and they turn down less than 1% of the requests for warrants). If you want warrantless wiretapping, why? What are you hiding?
Do you wingnuts ever think?
February 2nd, 2006 at 11:05 amI do not think the country is safer since 9/11 eg New Orleans could not withstand a natural disaster( and we knew it was coming) and we could not protect the people from the consequences of it.However I do not want to be proven right if it takes a nuclear disaster to do it.
February 2nd, 2006 at 2:09 pmSincerely Andy O’Donnell
James,
February 2nd, 2006 at 2:28 pmwe havent killed 30,000 iraqi’s. 30,000 iraqi’s have died since we have been in iraq due to; of course the US, but most have been killed by radical idiots who think they will have 42 virgins waiting for them the second thier head pops off. I don’t see any prominent member of any muslum group blowing themselves up. It is all young people who have been fed BS thier whole life.
by the way,
February 2nd, 2006 at 2:32 pmwhy does everyone here have to toss around insults in thier writing. It only proves that your all emotion and not rational thinkers. Most of the comments on this site are trash talk, and not anything of substance.
oh yeah, and wikopedia is not an encyclopedia. Its filled with crap that anybody wants to put in it.
it is not a source of truthness. anyone can write what they want.
#207 – “And who decides what organizations are “terrorist†and which are not? We’ve killed 30,000 Iraqi civilians by Bushco’s lowball estimate. Does that make us terrorists? The governement spies on Greenpeace and PETA — are they terrorists?” – James –
***** The problem with many of our students in college today is the inability to discern between right and wrong. In addition, this same type student abhors the thought of being labelled “judgemental”. You wouldn’t be surprised to note, James, that a nationwide survey showed an inability to condemn the Nazi’s – after all that might be imposing another’s standards. I’m just glad you’re not in a position to watch my back – I’d need eyes in the back of my head with you there.
Regarding PETA – when you note PETA’s funding of the murderous eco-terror group ELF – get back with me…..
February 2nd, 2006 at 6:39 pmDear Mr. Macaluso – Thank you for taking the time to say SO WELL what needed to be said. You are living proof that old-time Democrats love their country and too many new-time Dems are looking for an entitlement program – or someone to blame for something or everything. I left the Dems in 1991 and haven’t looked back at that sinking ship since.
February 2nd, 2006 at 6:48 pmThank you Mighty. Actually, for the last several years I have been a Democrat in name only. While I always have voted for the best qualified candidate over the years, lately I’ve been voting a lot more Republican. Without a doubt, the Dem’s have gotten way, way too far left for me. Possibly perception but mostly the stark realities speak for themselves. Now,I can’t possibly agree with every platform the Republicans run on but I can certainly connect with the overall principals…they remind me of heady days before our “Great Society”. We seemed to be a Nation of values then. Now, these fool Democrats support such nonesense as wanting to allow 12 year old girls to have anonymous abortions but acknowledge that the same girl cannot give herself tylenol in school without the aid of the nurse! But I digress.
February 6th, 2006 at 7:33 pmThe party has been taken over by every crazy celebrity, do gooder and activest that waves cash in front of Howard Dean. I’ve been around long enough to know that idiots like Bruce Springstien and Whoopi Goldberg cannot tell sensible, down to Earth people who they should vote for. Their priorities, coupled with the likes of Danny Glover turn people against the party in general. Led by the nutcase Dean, this Party is a shell of itself. The Democrats once stood for what was right in this Country. Now it stands for a dishevled bunch of lunatics who offer no answers but only try to divide this Nation solely because they are devoid of ideas.
It is, by the way breaking the law when the Administration circumvents FISA, in my opinion. Having said that though, I would rather the NSA break the law than see a mushroom cloud over Dallas. Everyone on this board seems to have expressed an outrage over this protocol but I’ll bet that a majority of these same people do not share the same outrage when, just by the manner in which we do our taxes each year the Feds have all of our information readily available to them at the stroke of a computer key!
Another item that may have slipped by the geniouses out here. OBL and his minions are incredibly intelligent. They can, and have in fact used our own Constitution against us in perpetrating 911. Terrorists, criminals and illegals hide behind our laws to promote our destruction. To argue that such scum should be protected by the very laws in which we live by is sickening to me. Essentially, that seems to be the prevailing attitude by which most of this blog believes to and subscribes to. I cringed when I read all of the writings from a few days ago. This is the real world, dangerous and unpredictable. This isn’t a college course taught by some arrogant and whiny proffesor. If we don’t stay a step ahead, we will suffer the consequences.
I am doing research on warrantless wiretapping for a paper and I stumbled on this website. I have to say, that this is not about civil liberties and all the BS everyone on here posts. It is about which side of the fence you are on. The only American that cares about these so called violations are the ones who have something to hide. Since I hate terrorists and do not support them, go ahead, listen to my conversations with my wife. It all boils down to what party your with, if you hate Bush, your against anything he is for and vice versa. But, if the President was a Democrat and was doing this same thing, you would be a supporter. It is not about right or wrong, but rather, party affiliation. I think politics suck, bottom line.
February 22nd, 2006 at 2:30 pmExtremely tired of politicians and other not putting US interests first. For wire-tapping with safeguards presently in place.
September 9th, 2006 at 7:22 pm