Americans and Iraqis Agree: U.S. Troops Need to Withdraw From Iraq
Americans and Iraqis Agree: U.S. Troops Need to Withdraw From Iraq
Two polls released this week show common ground between Iraqis and Americans – a strong majority in both countries support withdrawal of U.S. troops.
According to the latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal survey, two thirds of Americans support reducing the number of U.S. troops (66 percent) – up 18 points from 48 percent who supported reducing troops last summer.
This represents a 10-point increase in the percentage of Americans who want a troop withdrawal since President Bush starting his latest “stay the course” public relations campaign for his strategy in Iraq.
In Iraq, another new poll sponsored by the Program on International Policy Attitudes finds that 70 percent of Iraqis support withdrawing U.S. troops.
Democracy means in part that government policy is informed by the will of the people. If President Bush wants to advance democracy in Iraq and at home (not to mention improve U.S. and Iraqi security), he should give the people what they want – a withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq.
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They are all conspiring with Osama!
February 1st, 2006 at 11:44 amI hope the Iraqi people got a flavor for Bushite democracy last night, when the capitol police arrested the grieving mother of a fallen U.S. “hero”…
Or maybe they’ve been paying attention to the warrantless wiretapping stories, and it brought back memories of Saddam?
February 1st, 2006 at 11:48 amYes Iraqis want our troops out, because they are occupied by a foreign power, who wants their OIL!
February 1st, 2006 at 11:49 amListen closely when Bushiva says “My decisions as far as Iraq will be dependent upon the advice of my commanders on the ground!”
Translation: Whatever goes wrong is the military’s fault!
February 1st, 2006 at 11:52 amAlso the Iraqi economy is really bad now > about 50% unemployed and those who do get jobs as police are assassinated, so of course they want Americans to depart, and the British too!
February 1st, 2006 at 11:52 amTROOPS HOME NOW!
So let’s See…Addicted to Foreign Oil. Sure George.
And NOW the USA is going to switch to Twigs and Grass from the Heartland for ethanol. Hmmm.
That’s Odd though… Seeing as how the USA just invaded and occupied the richest OIL reserves on earth…
… using the GI’s from that very same heartland…. Hmmm
One Citizen MUST wonder… China? India? Who? Where? When?
What? Is going to happen to all of that “Not-So-Foreign-Oil”… now that Iraq was colonized like a 51st state?
… Protected with Our Very Own National Guard and Reserves.
This is Odd, Odd INDEED. One of the Latest Republican Meta-Cons… getting a roll-out during “The State of the Union Address.”
Send Your Boys and Girls to Die for Mid-East Oil… for Cheney and Exxon and Enron…Yet don’t expect any of it at home…
Instead, pay the price of New Technology Innovation… and Let Cheney and Exxon and Enron OWN the World’s Oil… and FUEL their ongoing Industrial Revolution of China and India.
It seems, The State of the Union is of One UNDER SIEGE… One of Immense CONS against the Citizenry.
God Bless our Over-Deployed and Under-Supplied Troops. Bring them Home NOW. The Nation NEEDS its National Guard.
February 1st, 2006 at 11:55 amDemocracy means in part that government policy is informed by the will of the people. If President Bush wants to advance democracy in Iraq and at home (not to mention improve U.S. and Iraqi security), he should give the people what they want – a withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq.
Gee, Bush doesn’t listen to us here in the U.S., why
February 1st, 2006 at 11:56 amwould he listen to what Iraqis want?
“No one can deny the success of freedom, but some men rage and fight against it.”–King George, January 31, 2006
“Size of protest — it’s like deciding, well, I’m going to decide policy based upon a focus group,” Mr. Bush said in response to a reporter’s question at the White House. “The role of a leader is to decide policy based upon the security, in this case, the security of the people.”–King George, February 18, 2003
February 1st, 2006 at 11:59 amOf course, Iraqi’s want US soldiers to leave – and we, their families, want them home. But the rigged questions “forget” to ask “when”? (Small details seem to elude clever progs.) When Iraqi forces improve their capabilities – send our military home.
I enjoy digging a bit deeper, so I asked, “The Program for National Policy Attitudes”?? You mean the “think tank” sponsored by the Stanley Foundation??? Whose motto is, “Seeking a secure peace with freedom and justice, built on WORLD citizenship and EFFECTIVE GLOBAL COOPERATION”????
The dissolution of national sovereignty is the real agenda behind the progs at Think Progress – “one world – one chorus.” This insidious and evil goal will be fought and blocked every step of the way by conservatives.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:05 pmBoth parties who read this poll should reach the same conclusion: Iraqis want the U.S. to stop occupying their country. If, supposedely, the United States is in favor of democracy in the Middle East, then they have to honor the wishes of the Iraqi people. This concept may be difficult for the Democrats and Republicans to grasp but Iraq has not, to the best of my knowledge, become the 51st state of this country, therefore, since the Iraqis want the U.S. to stop occupying their country and to stop murdering its citizens, the U.S. should act logically and leave Iraq post haste.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:05 pmThe most exciting part to me during times like this is the anticipation to see how Russert and Matthews will spin it to make it look like a GOP victory.
Or maybe we’ll get to hear Lauer covering his ass again – “Technically it is a majority of both countries but it is a bipartisan effort to stay in Iraq. So the Dems are just as guilty as Bush for leaving them there.” (not an actual quote from Lauer)
February 1st, 2006 at 12:10 pmBush and Cheney will not pull our troops out untill Chevron and the other oil cartels pump out every last drop of crude!
February 1st, 2006 at 12:11 pmImpeach both of them now, or the troops will remain in Iraq for 20 years!
ma,
You ought to get around more. Visit some other countries. It just might occur to you that we are all brothers under our skins, and that–I know you’ll find this hard to believe, but other countries are actually more civilized and have a higher standard of living then we do.
As a matter of fact, the concept of national sovereignty has caused as much suffering in the world as has the concept of religion.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:14 pmEvil, crime, scammers are usually able to flourish because they mix the truth with lies – or exaggeration or consistent omissions. I’ve noticed that several blogs lately rely on telling half the story. It wouldn’t be rank partisanship, would it?? Nah….
February 1st, 2006 at 12:17 pmI find it interesting that King George, who needs expanded powers because we’re at war, never mentioned the word ‘war’ during this speech. Even the ‘war on terror’ is now the ‘offensive against terror.’ I guess, under such stately circumstances, where a disruptive T-shirt must be removed, calling invasion, bombing, killing, destruction, kidnapping and torturing by the word ‘war’ would be unsettling to a lot of good folks.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:21 pmBush and Osama disagree with Americans and Iraqis – both insist that the US stay in Iraq where, for Osama, Americans are easier to kill and more Muslims can be convinced to join the Jihad against the US, and for Bush, military spending can enrich self and friends in a way nothing else can. After all, there is no business like the war business.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:21 pmYou better stop reading redstate, lilgreenfootballs and michelle malkin’s rag then ma.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:21 pmBush’s claim that we’ll stand down when the Iraqi people stand up is another brazen lie. We are building 12-16 large-scale (i.e. permanent) military bases in Iraq. This flies in the face of American forces “standing down”. Standing down like we did after WWII?
http://www.germany-info.org/relaunch/info/publications/infocus/bases/map_interactive.html
Bullshit!
February 1st, 2006 at 12:22 pm#14 – Sounds like a perfect description of the current administration. And the Republican party. And some of the Democrats as well (Sen. Lieberman for one), but mostly the MSM, the so-called conservative ‘think-tanks’, and neo-con talking heads.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:23 pmThe dissolution of national sovereignty is the real agenda behind the progs at Think Progress – “one world – one chorus.†This insidious and evil goal will be fought and blocked every step of the way by conservatives.
Comment by mighty aphrodite
I agree. In fact, I think we should go back to feifdoms to. If my lord should require this humble serf’s service against an adjacent feifdom, I would gladly ride out to meet the enemy. That’s the kind of stuff you don’t get with the whole “one world – one chorus.”
February 1st, 2006 at 12:23 pmma, no, its patriotism.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:24 pm#18 – How do you expect the American oil companies to keep their ill-gotten gains without the American clout of soldiers lives to lay down for them if we don’t have a permanent presence in Iraq?
February 1st, 2006 at 12:25 pm“In Iraq, another new poll sponsored by the Program on International Policy Attitudes finds that 70 percent of Iraqis support withdrawing U.S. troops.”
Somebody ought to tell those left wing fucktard pollsters that only 70% of terrorist Sunni muslims in a country that is 90% Shi’ite isn’t much of a mandate.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:25 pm“The dissolution of national sovereignty is the real agenda behind the progs at Think Progress – “one world – one chorus.—
Gee, I think GWB and the Republican Syndicate are doing a bang-up job of destroying our national sovereignty as they they implement their Project for a New American Century. Wasn’t it GWHB who was talking about a New World Order in the 90’s? Problem is, the entire world is singing the anti-American chorus these days.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:25 pmHow do you expect the American oil companies to keep their ill-gotten gains without the American clout of soldiers lives to lay down for them if we don’t have a permanent presence in Iraq?
Comment by Democrat Soldier
I would guess you ride a bike everywhere you go then? Dumbass.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:27 pm#22 Democrat Soldier,
Exactly.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:29 pmThe dissolution of national sovereignty is the real agenda behind the progs at Think Progress – “one world – one chorus.†This insidious and evil goal will be fought and blocked every step of the way by conservatives.
whatsamatter, ma? Afraid of democracy throughout the entire world? Afraid you won’t have a majority voting bloc? Afraid if the world does truly become democratic, you might lose control of it? Come on, you want decisions based on the will of the people, right? Shouldn’t international decisions be made by international vote?
Truly, your goal is not democracy, it is empire. You want the red states to make all decisions for the entire country. Once that control is firm, then you want your country to make all decisions for the entire world. You are afraid of real democracy, aren’t you?
February 1st, 2006 at 12:29 pmI-R-I,
Hadn’t realized that you’d come around to admitting we invaded and occupy Iraq for its oil. Good on you, this is progress….maybe TP is starting to rub off on you….?
February 1st, 2006 at 12:30 pm#22,
February 1st, 2006 at 12:31 pmHeck, we could recruit the locals and pay them a tenth of what the mercenaries get. With that, we could have an army of six or seven million at about one eighth of the current expenditure.
But Walt, wouldn’t that hurt the bottom line of the war profiteers pretty hard? Have some compassion man.
:(
February 1st, 2006 at 12:33 pmIRI,
February 1st, 2006 at 12:33 pmUsing oil, is a problem, yes, but invading a country to take over its oil is criminal.
I would guess you ride a bike everywhere you go then? Dumbass.
No of course not. Only 80-90% of the time. You may think not sending money to Iran is the sign of a dumbass. I would guess you are a fatass who needs to burn ten gallons of gas just to haul your blubber around. And the Iranian mullahs thank you. You’re sending them more than enough money to support Hamas in their new role.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:36 pm#13 – Don, when you finish your rendidtion of “Imagine” – you might be surprised to learn that your suppositions are not suppositories. I’m fairly well-travelled thanks to parents who thought travel was an educational endeavor and military service. I found many Europeans delightfully lazy – I say “delightful” to illustrate a sense of appreciation for the humour, and cultural insights that Europeans often display – and sometimes work on. But who can argue with 6 weeks of vacation and tiny refrigerators?
I won’ bore you with a tavelogue – but your “elitism” is telling – - and ignorant.
As Mr. Aphrodite and I were discussing the other night, “one-worlders” are not benign – they are a malignancy which takes advantage of two things:
February 1st, 2006 at 12:37 pma.) progressive sympathies and guilt-ridden ANGUISH (warranted OR convenient)
b.) the compulsion progs have to pat themselves on the back for their compassion – often phony…..
Who can argue with 6 week vacations? Certainly not our president. What a delightfully lazy fellow.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:38 pm#25 – “Right between the I’s”, your back!
And here I thought I wouldn’t get the chance to hear some more calumny and distortions and extreme exaggerations from some troll today!
By the way, you’ve exaggerated my claim. Oil isn’t going away any time soon any more than trolls of your ilk will.
What I mean, oh man of little imagination and even smaller ability to understand a point of view other than the one you’re told to have, is that the Oil companies have demanded instant access to the reserves in Iraq as part of their compact with the devil (aka President Bush). Rather than researching for a viable alternative for an increasingly depleting resource, they want to ride the oil slick until they have no other alternative than to change to another source of power & greed.
Oh, well! I’m used to the partisan brain not wanting to see anything that doesn’t dove-tail with the beliefs they are told to have by their leaders, and I’ve become used to you being no different in this either.
As for me riding a bike everywhere I go, since I currently live in Texas and Texans are opposed to any form of mass transit that is convenient for users, I drive my truck to/from work. When I lived in the Washington DC area, I commuted when I could and drove when I couldn’t. When I lived in Connecticut, I lived a block from work, so I walked.
Are YOU doing anything to help remove the yoke of dependence on foreign oil that our country is laboring under? Of course you aren’t! That would be contrary to the opinions you have been told to believe in.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:39 pmWe must fight – we have to fight.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:39 pmEvil, crime, scammers are usually able to flourish because they mix the truth with lies – or exaggeration or consistent omissions. I’ve noticed that several blogs lately rely on telling half the story. It wouldn’t be rank partisanship, would it?? Nah….
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Ok, lets look deeper into the poll and get out the whole truth so we don’t have to rely on half the story:
Country headed in right/wrong direction: 31/57
Approve/Disapprove of Bush’s handling of the economy: 40/53
Approve/Disapprove of his handling of foreign policy: 38/57
Approve/Disapprove of his handling of Iraq: 39/56
Approve/Disapprove of the job Congress is doing: 29/56
Prefer Republican/Democratic Congress after next elections: 38/47
Was removing Saddam worth/not worth our casualties: 42/48
Maintain/Reduce current troop levels: 28/66 (43% in favor of no timeline, 21% in favor of a timeline)
More/less confident of successful conclusion in Iraq: 36/53
President has/does not have good reasons to keep troops in Iraq: 43/52
And to address your concerns about a timetable not being addressed in the poll, here is the information since you were to lazy to read the report:
Beginning to withdrawl troops from Iraq – 66% priority this year – 26% next year – 5% should not be pursued
So there is the full truth for you to look over.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:42 pmma, if this is not “one world” then what is it? Two worlds? Maybe three? That would be nice, we can blow one up, ruin the environment of another, and leave the third in poverty. We would need a fouth in which to live.
No, if you want democracy for the entire world, it will be either a) a federated system drawing lines between sovereignty and international decisions, or b)a constantly shifting complex set of treaties between EU-style blocs.
Either way, it’s still just one world.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:42 pmmighty aphrodite,
I’m not sure if there was a point in your last post, but if so, I missed it.
Please explain to us how invading and occupying Iraq (and killing 10’s of thousands of innocents in the process) based on fabricated intelligence and lies to the American people, all for control over their petroleum (and how its traded) is worth defending.
Someone that’s had the good fortune of world travel should know better.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:43 pm“Hire the muleskinner” – a Custer ‘decision’
When the battle was over, Custer and his men lay dead and dying on the grounds of Little Big Horn. The native indian women descended upon them and hacked them to pieces with knives and hatchets. They were also crying, for they didn’t want to do what they were doing, but so enraged they were from years of persecution and torture, they couldn’t help themselves.
The times, they are a changing… for the worse.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:43 pmAbby #36,
Thank you for the link to “Why We Fight”, I had heard about it on the radio and it powerful and essential viewing. I’ve heard it’s not going to be carried by the American media corps. Hope it’s available for purchase online.
Powerful trailer!
February 1st, 2006 at 12:49 pmExecutive Order 13303 decrees that “any attachment, judgment, decree, lien, execution, garnishment, or other judicial process is prohibited, and shall be deemed null and void,” with respect to the Development Fund for Iraq and “all Iraqi petroleum and petroleum products, and interests therein.”
In other words, if ExxonMobil or ChevronTexaco touch Iraqi oil, it will be immune from legal proceedings in the United States. Anything that could go, and elsewhere has gone, awry with U.S. corporate oil operations will be immune to judgment: a massive tanker accident; an explosion at an oil refinery; the employment of slave labor to build a pipeline; murder of locals by corporate security; the release of billions of tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. The president, with a stroke of the pen, signed away the rights of Saddam’s victims, creditors and of the next true Iraqi government to be compensated through legal action. Bush’s order unilaterally declares Iraqi oil to be the unassailable province of U.S. corporations.
In the short term, through the Development Fund and the Export-Import Bank programs, the Iraqi people’s oil will finance U.S. corporate entrees into Iraq. In the long term, Executive Order 13303 protects anything those corporations do to seize control of Iraq’s oil, from the point of production to the gas pump — and places oil companies above the rule of law.
http://reclaimdemocracy.org/articles_2003/executive_order_13303.html
February 1st, 2006 at 12:49 pmSomebody ought to tell those left wing fucktard pollsters that only 70% of terrorist Sunni muslims in a country that is 90% Shi’ite isn’t much of a mandate.
Actually if you read the poll you find that 94% of Sunnis want us gone, 71% of Shi’ites want us gone, and overall (composite) 87% or Iraqis want us gone. Please read before posting.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:50 pm**and overall (composite) 70% or Iraqis want us gone.** (correction)
February 1st, 2006 at 12:54 pmIRI,(#23)your grasp of the population %s is a little weak,but then that whole comment was utterly devoid of content. What does “70% of terrorists in a country that is 90% Shia isn’t a mandate” mean? Besides the figures being wrong,(I can’t imagine you actually read the results) what mandate are you referring to? You usually appear more sentient than that comment implies.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:56 pmBrian,
“If President Bush wants to advance democracy in Iraq and at home . .”
Very funny.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:57 pmThe dissolution of national sovereignty is the real agenda behind the progs at Think Progress – “one world – one chorus.†This insidious and evil goal will be fought and blocked every step of the way by conservatives.
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Damn! The mutt has found us out! TP is really a front for the Bilderbergers, Skull and Bones and the Trilateral commission! Everyone hide!
February 1st, 2006 at 12:59 pm#23, hey Adolf, your pants are on fire again:
“Somebody ought to tell those left wing fucktard pollsters that only 70% of terrorist Sunni muslims in a country that is 90% Shi’ite isn’t much of a mandate” -I-RightArmRaisedForMeinFuhrer-I
Here are the demographics
So, we have only 60% Shiite, 15% Kurd and 25% Sunni. 70% of them support the removal of US troops, and 50% of them support shooting at US troops. Given that only the Kurds really have anything to thank the US for, that’s a pretty damning number. You call it terrorism, I call it a popular insurgency.
February 1st, 2006 at 12:59 pmTry World Federalists.
February 1st, 2006 at 1:00 pm#20 – “In fact, I think we should go back to feifdoms to. If my lord should require this humble serf’s service against an adjacent feifdom, I would gladly ride out to meet the enemy. That’s the kind of stuff you don’t get with the whole “one world – one chorus.†– buckley
Thank you for not disappointing me Buckley – your analogy is sooooooooooooooooo stupid (I NEVER use that word lightly) more illumination is NOT necessary.
#21 – Walt, would you KNOW patriotism if it came up and bit you in the a$$?? I have rarely seen any demonstrated love for our country here (LOVE for social programs, yes…love for country…rarely.)
#27 – “whatsamatter, ma? Afraid of democracy throughout the entire world? Afraid you won’t have a majority voting bloc? Afraid if the world does truly become democratic, you might lose control of it? Come on, you want decisions based on the will of the people, right? Shouldn’t international decisions be made by international vote?” – cynical hippie
***** I hate the idea of Empire – I love the idea of allies. But your concept of Empire surely doesn’t reflect what is known about the Roman Empire, the British Empire.
I’m not afraid of democracy – I am proud to love a country that often promotes democracry and smashes communists and fascists. But the Koreans are better equipped to promote their needs and culture than a management team from Zaire. I am for the “will of the people” through their sovereign elections, treaties and diplomatic relations. I am not bent over with such guilt-ridden anxiety, mental self flagellation and progressive self-loathing (bi-polar or schizoid progs will recognize the self-loathing one minute and the superior elitism the next) that I am willing to smash my country in the name of “international co-operation” – apparently, unlike you.
February 1st, 2006 at 1:00 pm#34 – “Who can argue with 6 week vacations? Certainly not our president. What a delightfully lazy fellow.” – cynical hippie
February 1st, 2006 at 1:04 pm*****I doubt you work aa much in a year at your job than Bush does during his working vaca but…..
Thank you for not disappointing me Buckley – your analogy is sooooooooooooooooo stupid (I NEVER use that word lightly) more illumination is NOT necessary.
Actually that is a very natural outgrowth of your argument: if “one world – one chorus” is so evil than the logical outcome would be to divide into smaller countries like I laid out. And once again I see that you are focusing on only the fluff and not the posts where I knocked your feet out from under you.
February 1st, 2006 at 1:05 pm#50, This is an interesting comment, please elaborate:
“I hate the idea of Empire – I love the idea of allies. But your concept of Empire surely doesn’t reflect what is known about the Roman Empire, the British Empire.”
I’m curious to know what your opinion is of the transition between the Roman Republic and Empire and how it came about (and was it good or bad for the Romans). Was the British Empire a force for good or ill in general, and why?
February 1st, 2006 at 1:09 pm*****I doubt you work aa much in a year at your job than Bush does during his working vaca but…..
Comment by mighty aphrodite
That contentious argument aside, the irony of posting that here is that Americans do not approve of the “work” he is doing.
February 1st, 2006 at 1:09 pmBush’s claim that we’ll stand down when the Iraqi people stand up is another brazen lie. We are building 12-16 large-scale (i.e. permanent) military bases in Iraq.
Comment by Jay #18
Jay,
The ONLY thing you can count on with the criminal Bushite junta is that they’re going to LIE!
February 1st, 2006 at 1:11 pmBuckley – Your Logic course??? You “earned” above an “F”? Concentrate on the posts “where you knocked”….huh? I was showing you mercy. Say thank you, Buck. Your analogy is fraught with stupidity and straw men. Hear Buck sing, “If I only had a brain….”
Back in the afternoon.
February 1st, 2006 at 1:14 pmBuckley – Your Logic course??? You “earned†above an “Fâ€? Concentrate on the posts “where you knockedâ€â€¦.huh? I was showing you mercy. Say thank you, Buck. Your analogy is fraught with stupidity and straw men. Hear Buck sing, “If I only had a brain….â€
Back in the afternoon.
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Still waiting for the response to my posts
February 1st, 2006 at 1:15 pm“I hate the idea of Empire – I love the idea of allies. But your concept of Empire surely doesn’t reflect what is known about the Roman Empire, the British Empire. mighty aphrodite”
Oh sweetie, you’re such a silly old thing. We have ‘garrisons’ of soldiers all through the empire, and while much of the world has ‘local’ leadership, we exert our military and political force to dominate when our influence is threatened. This is exactly how Rome worked. Egyped had its own pharoah, yet it was part of the roman empire.
It’s OK pumpkin, I blame it on your partisan brain. It surely disregards all evidence that shows your silly emotional partisan beliefs are wrong. You can’t help it honey, you’re just a victim of your addiction – so I forgive you.
“I’m not afraid of democracy – I am proud to love a country that often promotes democracry and smashes communists and fascists. mighty aphrodite”
Such a carefully chosen partisan word pumpkin, how often would that be – only as often as the master says it’s good? I thought the latest mantra was ‘democracy for the world’ – what’s wrong pumpkin, have Iraq and Palestine scared you guys away from your bold agenda? And isn’t it too bad that the partisans – especially the republicans – didn’t promote democracy 50 years ago in the middle east when it would have made a real difference?
The reason partisans yourself don’t ‘always’ promote democracy is simple. Just like your response on this blog, or your fellow partisan responses in this country, you can’t handle dissent. You would prefer a ruthless and brutal dictator who doesn’t disagree with you, than a democracy that does. Just as I would imagine many of you would steal elections, corrupt the constitution, or undermine ‘america’ that you seem to really love, in order to not have to have dissent from your fellow americans.
Poor pumpkin, you’re so full of a ‘desire’ to do the right thing, and a capacity to do the wrong thing. This is obviously the real danger of the partisan brain. It makes otherwise clearly bright and conscientious people seem deranged and otherwise just irrational. You surely show the path to terrorism pumpkin – and I pity you. Forgiveness, love and nurturing is what you need – all of this hate, anger, resentment and anxiety you have make you say the silliest things.
February 1st, 2006 at 1:15 pm“Buckley – Your Logic course??? You “earned†above an “Fâ€? Concentrate on the posts “where you knockedâ€â€¦.huh? I was showing you mercy. Say thank you, Buck. Your analogy is fraught with stupidity and straw men. Hear Buck sing, “If I only had a brain….â€
Back in the afternoon.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — February 1, 2006 @ 1:14 pm”
Sweetie, that’s really funny for you to write. You wrote your opinions, you didn’t write anything logical. But since the partisan brain doesn’t involve any reasoning centers it’s clearly not possible for you to recognize this.
I forgive you mighty, you just make yourself look silly posting the things you post. But hey, if it makes an old woman happy to stand on the street corner and ramble silly rantings – it’s a free country sweetums.
February 1st, 2006 at 1:17 pmPoor quality trolls today, one is lying and the other is trying the ad hominem attack approach….
February 1st, 2006 at 1:19 pm37 was pretty embarrassing for you and you haven’t talked about a topic yet – still just arguing about how ridiculous I made you sound when you criticized the motto “one world – one chorus.”
I was showing you mercy.
Please don’t.
Your analogy is fraught with stupidity and straw men.
Please define.
Your Logic course???
If world wide unity (”one world – one chorus”) is bad than it follows that the opposite it good. The opposite is of course divided people especially those in fiefdoms. So by critizing unity you are advocating smaller communties that argue with each other.
February 1st, 2006 at 1:22 pmSOMEDAY THE ANIMAL-HUMAN HYBRIDS WILL ALL RUN FREE!!!!!!!
February 1st, 2006 at 1:22 pm“*****I doubt you work aa much in a year at your job than Bush does during his working vaca but…..
Comment by mighty aphrodite — February 1, 2006 @ 1:04 pm”
Oh pumpkin, how could you possibly know how much the poster you tried to smear works? Bush might very well work hard, but many people who are former members of the administration say differently pumpkin.
But that’s OK, if you want us to defer to your vast experience of the personal habits of Bush, maybe we should defer to the partisan. Since clearly no new information would change this unfounded belief of yours pumpkin.
And I forgive you for smearing those you disagree with, the desperate, the angry and the uncivil partisans often resort to these means. You can’t help yourself pumpkin, we’ll chalk it up to the partisan brain – ‘K?
February 1st, 2006 at 1:23 pmSOMEDAY THE ANIMAL-HUMAN HYBRIDS WILL ALL RUN FREE!!!!!!!
Comment by RED ALERT!!!!
When I heard that last night I got scared and checked my terror alert level to make sure everything was still ok.
February 1st, 2006 at 1:24 pmThis war is bullcrap, well established for being based on false intelligence. People in very large numbers here and abroad know it too. This does not mean I or others who agree are anti-war, we are just anti-bullcrap. So try to discredit the thread, or the numbers, or get off track, it doesn’t change it.
February 1st, 2006 at 1:24 pmI didn’t see Mighty, IRI, BSR, IL, Bruce, Wallace, posting on the SOTU stuff, they can’t even attempt to argue with how lame it was. C’mon you guys actually believe everything the Pres said? You really believe the crap about reducing dependency on oil, the budget, medical care, natural disasters, human-animal hybrids. (Which is a subconscience way of making the word hybrid sound bad, in my opinion.)
February 1st, 2006 at 1:30 pmDoes anyone know where the idea of human-animal hybrids came from other than the obvious myths and fictional entertainment? Is someone really trying to do this? Or was it some type of emotional manipulation. I would really like to know if any Right Wingers know about it, I don’t think even crazy Coulter has ever mentioned it in her right to life emotionally charged drama.
February 1st, 2006 at 1:41 pm“Democracy means in part that government policy is informed by the will of the people. If President Bush wants to advance democracy in Iraq and at home (not to mention improve U.S. and Iraqi security), he should give the people what they want – a withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq.”
What is the timetable? Immediate, six months, a year, ect..?
BTW like has already been rightly pointed out there will ALWAYS be a U.S. presence in Iraq….like we already do in an Islamic country called Turkey, i.e. Incirlik Air Base. What is the Turks position about having U.S. troops in their country?
February 1st, 2006 at 1:43 pmTracy Incirlik is a NATO base my brother-in-law and sister were stationed there, and since Turkey is a member of NATO the analogy kinda falls short,
February 1st, 2006 at 1:48 pm“I didn’t see Mighty, IRI, BSR, IL, Bruce, Wallace, posting on the SOTU stuff, they can’t even attempt to argue with how lame it was. C’mon you guys actually believe everything the Pres said? For Truth”
The problem is that they do believe it, but their brain will prevent them from learning they’re wrong. It’s a defense mechanism – poor things. Forgive them, they’re disabled and can’t help themselves or be helped apparently.
February 1st, 2006 at 1:50 pm
Human/animal hybrids have existed for millions of years. The microorganisms that inhabit your gut are there to fulfill functions beyond the body’s design. It is true that not all unions are beneficial to the host. Ticks and tapeworms come immediately to mind.
February 1st, 2006 at 1:54 pmManimals could be refering to the Rob Schneider movie. Or the Uruk-Hai. Maybe it’s remnants left over from Thundercats or Thundaar. Maybe he heard someone talking about Kramer’s army of hospital pigmen on the phone and decided to launch a campaign against this new enemy. Then again it could be Iran’s new manimal program that he was talking about.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:10 pmIRI,(#23)your grasp of the population %s is a little weak,but then that whole comment was utterly devoid of content. What does “70% of terrorists in a country that is 90% Shia isn’t a mandate†mean? Besides the figures being wrong,(I can’t imagine you actually read the results) what mandate are you referring to? You usually appear more sentient than that comment implies.
Comment by TJM
Read slower and try not to move your lips when you do it. If you don’t know what the hell I’m talking about how do you know my figures are wrong? Dumbass.
Iraq is 90% Shi’ite and 10% Sunni Muslim. Got that? Ok. The Shi’ite hate the Sunni for any number of reasons but mostly because Saddam is a Sunni and all the leaders of the country were Sunni and one of Saddam’s favorite things to do was kill Shi’ite Iraqis by the truck load…every day. Are you with me so far?
The Leftwing fucktards that took this poll didn’t ask the Shi’ites (whom as you know because I told you make up 90% of the country)what they thought of American soldiers leaving them high and dry to deal with the terrorists and Iran which is also Sunni. So, the poll is nothing more than a trick to get you Kos Kiddies and DUmmies to believe that the Iraqis want us out of the country when they certainly do not and have said so over and over again.
Now don’t expect me to spend this much time explaining things to you again. You’re a big boy and can read something besides the Left Wing rags if you want to know the real story.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:17 pmIRI = Manimal… or Deuce Bigalow
I picture him as half man-half vole, or an assvole.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:22 pmIRI Iraq is only a little over 60% shite, the rest are sunni and Kurds. been there ya know, had to fight some of them , in 91. Had to learn the difference so I might be able to use the knowledge when The division rolled into Iraq.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:23 pmIraq is 90% Shi’ite and 10% Sunni Muslim. Got that? Ok.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — February 1, 2006 @ 2:17 pm
Wrong.
From the wikipedia:
There are more Arab Iraqi Muslim members of the Shiite sect than there are Arab Iraqi Muslims of the Sunni sect; but there is a large Sunni population as well, made up of mostly Arabs and Kurds. (Shiite 60% of total population made up of mostly Arabs). (…)
Demographic information from the 2005 edition of the CIA’s The World Factbook:
February 1st, 2006 at 2:25 pm* Ethnic groups: Arab, 75–80%; Kurdish, 15–20%; Turkoman, Assyrian or other, 5%.
* Religions: Muslim, 97% (Shi’ite, 60-65%; Sunni 32-37%); Christian or other, 3%
Read slower and try not to move your lips when you do it. If you don’t know what the hell I’m talking about how do you know my figures are wrong? Dumbass.
Iraq is 90% Shi’ite and 10% Sunni Muslim. Got that? Ok. The Shi’ite hate the Sunni for any number of reasons but mostly because Saddam is a Sunni and all the leaders of the country were Sunni and one of Saddam’s favorite things to do was kill Shi’ite Iraqis by the truck load…every day. Are you with me so far?
The Leftwing fucktards that took this poll didn’t ask the Shi’ites (whom as you know because I told you make up 90% of the country)what they thought of American soldiers leaving them high and dry to deal with the terrorists and Iran which is also Sunni. So, the poll is nothing more than a trick to get you Kos Kiddies and DUmmies to believe that the Iraqis want us out of the country when they certainly do not and have said so over and over again.
Now don’t expect me to spend this much time explaining things to you again. You’re a big boy and can read something besides the Left Wing rags if you want to know the real story.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I
Please read posts 43/44 before opening your mouth again.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:25 pmwhat they thought of American soldiers leaving them high and dry to deal with the terrorists and Iran
Which is precisely what junior will do, just like Poppy did in GWI, and Reagan before that, with Iran. The apple never falls far from the tree. Like father, like son. Republican scum.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:26 pmI-R-I,
According to Wikipedia, your numbers are wrong (shocking I know).
15-20% Kurd
60-65% Shia
32-37% Sunni
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Iraq
OK, dumbass.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:27 pmWrong link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq#Demographics
February 1st, 2006 at 2:29 pmIRI Iraq is only a little over 60% shite, the rest are sunni and Kurds. been there ya know, had to fight some of them , in 91. Had to learn the difference so I might be able to use the knowledge when The division rolled into Iraq.
Comment by Clif
The point is if you want to know what the “Iraqi People” want from America don’t ask the Sunni. We screwed ‘em good and they’ll never forget it. It’s my belief that as soon as the Iraqi army can figure out how to use all those cool new weapons we’re giving them the population of Sunni Muslims in Iraq will suffer a sudden drop to about .000000000001%. In fact the smart Sunni want us to stay precisely because they know what is gong to happen sooner or later. But I say screw ‘em and loose the hounds.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:30 pmHere’s the map of Iraqi demographics…for everyone’s favorite dumbass:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Iraq_demography.jpg
February 1st, 2006 at 2:31 pmThe rest of the world, particular the middle and far east, have had plenty of experience dealing with us, and know full well the dangers of getting involved with our government, particularly the Republican administrations. It always leads to repressive dictatorial governments one way or another, like in Iran under the Shah. And in the case of the Kurds in Iraq in GWI, usually involves some being led down the primrose path of fighting an insurgency against our enemies in power at the time (also the same people, Saddam, who were our allies against Iran after our puppet the Shah fell) and then being left high and dry by us, to swing in the wind during a repressive and brutal backlash. If it wasn’t for idiots like IRI… the middle east would be a different place today.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:37 pmThe point is if you want to know what the “Iraqi People†want from America don’t ask the Sunni. We screwed ‘em good and they’ll never forget it. It’s my belief that as soon as the Iraqi army can figure out how to use all those cool new weapons we’re giving them the population of Sunni Muslims in Iraq will suffer a sudden drop to about .000000000001%. In fact the smart Sunni want us to stay precisely because they know what is gong to happen sooner or later. But I say screw ‘em and loose the hounds.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I
Once again read the poll. 94% of sunnis want us gone and 71% of Shi’ites want us gone. I guess you are saying that 6% of the Sunni population is smart. Your argument isn’t clear.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:38 pmThe point is if you want to know what the “Iraqi People†want from America don’t ask the Sunni. We screwed ‘em good and they’ll never forget it.
Bullshit. You have no idea what you are talking about. We screwed the Kurds good, too. Don’t you get it? We screw everybody good. That’s why some people are able to get other people to fly planes into buildings. And our current policies are even better recruitment tools than the old ones. STFU you moron. You are helping the enemy.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:41 pmThe dissolution of national sovereignty is the real agenda behind the progs at Think Progress – “one world – one chorus.†This insidious and evil goal will be fought and blocked every step of the way by conservatives.
Comment by mighty aphrodite #9
Puny Hermaphrodite,
As usual you’ve got your holes crossed…
It was YOUR gods Bushiva and L’il Dick who “dissolved” Iraq’s national sovereignty, and instituted regime change…
…so that we could ALL become “ONE cozy democracy”…
But you did get the second part of your sh*t-for-brains not-too-well-thought-out rant…
…the “conservative” al Qaida, and Islamic fundamentalists ARE “fighting to block” Bushiva and L’il Dick’s diabolical plan “every step of the way”…
…now go get “copulated”- in ALL your holes…
February 1st, 2006 at 2:43 pmTell me the wingnuts that have seized power in this country have more formidable intellects than their blogging minions…please.
A guy can hope can’t he?
February 1st, 2006 at 2:45 pmThe point is if you want to know what the “Iraqi People” want from America don’t ask the Sunni. We screwed ‘em good and they’ll never forget it.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — February 1, 2006 @ 2:30 pm
The point is that your figures on Iraq’s ethnic breakdown were completely wrong, and you should acknowledge it -that is if you were intellectually honest.
Furthermore, your idea & “solution” that the Sunni opinion should be ignored is foolish, unpracticable and undemocratic. Not only that, since it includes ethnic cleansing it is also criminal.
But we already knew war crimes are the stuff that makes your dreams.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:47 pmGregor,
Especially since he wrote: “Iraq is 90% Shi’ite and 10% Sunni Muslim. Got that? Ok.”
What an ahole. OK, I’m on to more worthy discussions.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:49 pmIt’s my belief that as soon as the Iraqi army can figure out how to use all those cool new weapons we’re giving them the population of Sunni Muslims in Iraq will suffer a sudden drop to about .000000000001%.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I #81
I’dbe-Rightinthethickofthingsbut-I’maninbredcoward,
Bi*ch you still cowering in that Sugarland trailer park?
Why aren’t you in Baghdad yet?
Scared that .000000000001% of Sunni’s are gonna spray your sorry, cowardly, al Crackkker chickkkenhawkkkk a*s huh?
February 1st, 2006 at 2:50 pmOnce again read the poll. 94% of sunnis want us gone and 71% of Shi’ites want us gone. I guess you are saying that 6% of the Sunni population is smart. Your argument isn’t clear.
Comment by Buckley Roberts
I don’t believe the left wing fucktards asked any Shi’ites what they wanted. Is that clear enough for you? I think they only asked the terrorists. Polls of the Shi’ite population have already been taken and even though they don’t like it they know they are screwed if we leave therefore we stay. In fact we will be there for years maybe decades.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:52 pmIt boil;s down to the observation that whatever IRI posts must be taken with three years production of the Diamond Salt Company.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:55 pmHere is what IRI meant to say:
I don’t believe the (Polls) asked any Shi’ites what they wanted (even though they have documentation that they did). Is that clear enough for you? I think they only asked the terrorists. Polls of the Shi’ite population have already been taken (that are older and that I refuse to show you) and even though they don’t like it they know they are screwed if we leave therefore we stay. In fact we will be there for years maybe decades.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I
And once again 70% of Shi’ites is a pretty strong case against anything you are saying. Please read the report before opening your mouth again.
February 1st, 2006 at 2:59 pmBuckley, don’t rib the troll, it’s more entertaing than Jon Stewart!
February 1st, 2006 at 3:01 pm***I’m sorry, 71% of Shi’ites
February 1st, 2006 at 3:01 pm#53 – Terry, I apologize if this appears to be a hit and run but I’m due in North County in an hour and fifteen and will look forward to your discussion when I return.
Conservatives are often accused of black/white thinking. Perhaps your framing of the question regarding the “good or bad” of the empire for Romans and the “good or ill’ effects of the Britsh Empire is an attempt to allow me to “comfortably” answer your question. I hate to disappoint, but several factors must be considered – not just the few that I argue here –
From my perspective, the transition from Roman Republic to Roman Empire was initially begun due to several factors, two of which were:
a.) the defense of the outskirts of the republic by marauding barbarians.
b.) the perceived need for more resources to alleviate the increasing tax burden.
The initial conquests “helped” spread Roman culture but both the defense and monetary quest was eventually more than the overtaxed and resource strapped Romans could bear. They eventually collapsed from their own bloated, bureaucratic weight. In hindsight, this CAN be labelled as bad for the Roman Empire and the resulting “Dark Ages” but there are some positive points to note. The spread of a degree of civilization and common language – although only available to the elite – at least got higher education launched – if only at seminaries.
The Britsh Empire and the Spanish Empire were resource driven, as was the French Empire. However, a few positive, yet unintended consequences, resulted with the British political and mercantile expansion. The US colonies were too unruly to govern after a while. The founders weren’t a bunch of populists or uneducated idiots. But they did recognize the dignity of man, the idiocy of monarchy, and the quest for liberty. Volumes could expand this sub-topic but brevity suggests a concise answer.
I am a firm believer that democracy in India was hastened by the force of membership in the empire of Great Britain. The India of today has a more vibrant and positive future due to Indian democracy than during the centuries of Indian monarchs and castes.
If the goal of the United States and it’s current President were the expansion of American Empire, I suggest such a step would have taken place with the victory over Germany, Japan and Italy. If such an empirical presidency exists, Eastern Europe would be a mid-Eastern outpost for us. If such an empirical presidency exists, Mexico and Pemex Oil would be our 51st state. Some reflexive progs note our global military installations in proffering their premise. I argue that such bases are (and were) of local benefit and should be disengaged now that the Cold War is won.
Will check back later.
February 1st, 2006 at 3:09 pmIRI I’ve got to give you credit, in post 81 you actually responded to a post and expressed an opinion without attacking the rest of us, good start.
However your facts are still wrong,
the shites can hold their own southwest of Baghdad but west of Baghdad they don’t want to go,
if the situation gets to far out of hand both the Syrians and the Saudis will come to their brother Sunni’s side.
The Sunnis don’t want us there because they believe that they can reestablish control over the country with out the US holding them down,
the faction that we benefited the most is the Kurds by the northern no fly zone where from 91 on they had their own mini state with our protection.
The invasion of 2003 benefited the shites because we removed the baathists that had complete control over them,
but now they feel with the backing of Iran they could dominate the southwest oil rich area of Iraq,
the Kurds want their territorial homeland which also has plenty of oil and after we leave they probably will evict the Sunnis from Mosul.
The evaluation of the situation I’ve given here is still limited but usually sufices for an introduction of the subject, critique away if you please
February 1st, 2006 at 3:11 pmaphrodite:
If the goal of the United States and it’s current President were the expansion of American Empire, I suggest such a step would have taken place with the victory over Germany, Japan and Italy.
I didn’t realize our current president was involved in the decision making process post WWII.
If such an empirical presidency exists, Eastern Europe would be a mid-Eastern outpost for us.
Oh but your not paying attention:
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/WarOnTerror/EastEurope.asp
If such an empirical presidency exists, Mexico and Pemex Oil would be our 51st state
If Mexico doesn’t follow directions, they will be the 51st state. Maybe 52nd, Hugo Chavez isn’t following directions.
I argue that such bases are (and were) of local benefit and should be disengaged now that the Cold War is won.
Hey, at least your making some sense.
February 1st, 2006 at 3:23 pmI Right,does it really feel so good to be so wrong? The DoD Section 2207 report as well as those reports from the State Dept.,SIGIR all tell a different story. The main armament of the ISF is the AK-47,the one armored division has T-72 tanks donated by Hungary,the army travels in Kraz and Gaz trucks donated or purchased from former Warsaw Pact members now part of NATO.The only Iraqi unit with US equipment is the Special Forces.
February 1st, 2006 at 3:29 pmThe IEDs have knocked out M1A1 tanks (casualty report-DoD 9/6/05)and you think the ISF armed with Warsaw Pact leftovers will do better than us?
We aren’t giving them any fancy new equipment because it’s a conundrum,how can we arm the Kurds with better weapons than we have sold to the Turks?
You know much,much less than I had given you credit for.
The civil war underway doesn’t need any US help,the Shia controlled Ministry of the Interior in Iraq can take revenge the old fashioned way,and they are.
It’s been a fiasco,not just because it had nothing to do with chasing OBL,but because it’s been run by incompetent idealogues,read the SIGIR reports from 10/05 and 1/06.
Oh and aprhodite, I think you were looking for imperial presidency not “empirical” presidency. Correct me if I’m wrong.
February 1st, 2006 at 3:53 pmIRI I’ve got to give you credit, in post 81 you actually responded to a post and expressed an opinion without attacking the rest of us, good start.
Comment by Clif
I do it all the time. The only time I call you ratbastardcommiemofos a Walking Dead Loser is when some Left Wing Fuctard pisses on my boot and tries to tell me it’s raining. That happens a lot around here you know.
However your facts are still wrong,
the shites can hold their own southwest of Baghdad but west of Baghdad they don’t want to go,
I would suggest that in time they WILL want to go just as they wanted to wipe some Sunni villages off the face of the earth for the Mosque and grade school bombings. In fact I think the only reason the Sunni triangle isn’t the Sunni graveyard is because Bush won’t let them go murder a million people.
if the situation gets to far out of hand both the Syrians and the Saudis will come to their brother Sunni’s side.
Don’t think so and here’s why. We have the royal family’s collective pecker in our pocket so they will not overtly do anything to piss us off. Assad in Syria is screwed because he’s lost European support after murdering that Jordanian minister. France and the USA are talking about how to bring Syria to heal this very day.
The Sunnis don’t want us there because they believe that they can reestablish control over the country with out the US holding them down,
People in hell want ice water and Saddam thinks he’s still the President of Iraq. Of course the Sunnis don’t want us there and that’s why we’re staying at the invitationof the Shi’ite majority.
the faction that we benefited the most is the Kurds by the northern no fly zone where from 91 on they had their own mini state with our protection.
The invasion of 2003 benefited the shites because we removed the baathists that had complete control over them,
but now they feel with the backing of Iran they could dominate the southwest oil rich area of Iraq,
Iran’s Shi’ite fundamentalists have their own problems with the US and the rest of the world and will be lucky to dominate their own country for much longer let alone Dick Cheney’s oil fields in Iraq. It’s nothing to even think much about considering the hatred Iran and Iraq as a whole have for each other.
the Kurds want their territorial homeland which also has plenty of oil and after we leave they probably will evict the Sunnis from Mosul.
I don’t know about that. They still need to stay in the good graces of the majority of Iraqis just in case Turkey decides to take back some of that disputed territory.
It’s a complicated mess that gets much less complicated with the worlds most deadly military force smack dab in the middle keeping peace. I don’t think we’ll see a complete withdrawl from Iraq in my lifetime. We’re still in Germany and despite what anyone says about us being there to deter the Soviet we were actually there to make sure the damn Germans didn’t get any new ideas after their defeat in WWII. In short you can forget about bringing the boys home. We’re there for the long haul.
The evaluation of the situation I’ve given here is still limited but usually sufices for an introduction of the subject, critique away if you please
I’m no expert either.
February 1st, 2006 at 3:57 pm“I’m no expert either.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — February 1, 2006 @ 3:57 pm”
That’s apparent sweetie. Partisans always claim expertise, when none is present though. I’m rather shocked at your moment of truthiness.
And I forgive you for all of the hate speech, ranting nonsense, and otherwise juvenile partisan acting out. Clearly your partisan brain is defensively attacking everyone that you disagree with to avoid facing hard cold reality. I can’t blame you, republican leadership – or lack thereof is a pretty bleak subject.
Don’t worry pumpkin, the republicans will lose power, and things will most likely get a lot better. Even if you don’t want that to happen, you’ll be better off for it sweetie.
February 1st, 2006 at 4:18 pm#98 Not only were the post WWII leaders against empire (which has nothing to do with the present day neocons) they were strongly in favor of an international court of justice.
If you want to support Bush, you have to do a lot of cut and paste in your history books.
February 1st, 2006 at 4:44 pmIRI you miss the point that the shites were the majority of the population when the Baathists came to power in 1938,
the Syrian backing of the Sunni’s is because they are Baathists also and so would move with them.
The Saudi would back the Sunni’s because they see the Sunni’s in Iraq as a check on the power of Iran especially if the shites gain the upper hand in the country.
So if the shites attempted to murder a million people the Arab world that is Sunni dominated would rally to the Sunni’s cause,
the shites in Iran are not Arabs but Persians as well as shites.
As for the Saudi’s worried about pissing us off well they did that for the first time in 1973 remember the oil embargo, also 1979 happened again.
They haven’t done almost anything after 911 we wanted until Bin Laden’s jihadists attacked the Saudi’s in Saudi Arabia.
They are good at playing both sides but their Wahhabi streak would require them to defend fellow Sunni’s from the shites
they have M1A1 tanks we left after the first gulf war and they know the advantage the M1 has over any soviet bloc tank even the T-72,
so they wouldn’t fear the Iranian or shite Iraqi armor.
The hatred in Iran is for the Sunni Iraqi’s especially the Baathist because Sadam was a Baathist and his attack on Iran in 1980 along with the persecution of the shites in Iraq have pushed the two major groups of Shites together.
The Kurds don’t really fear the turks much because the kurds have brother Kurds inside turkey and turkey doesn’t want to antagonise their kurdist population in the country or face the US for agressive actions that DC doesn’t approve of.
Our forces in Iraq bond natural enemies into groups that could spell a disaster, because if the Al Quaeda faction allies with the shites then we will have a insurgencty on our hands that would make either vietnam or the soviet expierence in Afganistan seem like a training exercise.
Given the 35 million Iraqi’s combined with the 68 million Iranians and the Al Quaeda jihadists from the surounding countries all in coordination we would face a strategic situation that we do not have the military resources to control,
airpower is not very effective against a well supported determined insurgency.
Both the soviets in Afganistan and thr US in Vietnam learned this lesson the hard way.
Yes we have more firepower and a much stronger army to slug it out toe to toe on a battle field, but that is not the style of combat the radical islamists whether Iraqi or Al Quaeda fight.
Their style is the same as used by the Vietnamese to defeat the Japanese, French and US in Vietnam from 1941 to 1975,
AlQuaeda sucessfully used the same strategy in Afganistan from 1980 to 1988.
We forced the Taliban out in 2002 but the situation is slowly deteroriating in Afganistan now,
they are starting to have suicide bombings and the Taliban operates with almost impunity across the border in Pakistan.
So to think the battle is completely over in Afganistan is shortsighted.
We would have to keep troops in Afganistan while we are fighting both the insurgency in Iraq and the Iranians and this would completly consume the entire US military,
the way the war would progress We would not have enough troops for the long haul unless the draft was reinstated on a scale similar to vietnam.
So long term troops in iraq is not the slam dunk I get from your post, or the neocons in DC think
February 1st, 2006 at 4:53 pm
February 1st, 2006 at 5:21 pmvia firedoglake
george Bushes statements we are addicted to oil…Hes been taking counciling I think and “we” should read as “I”
February 1st, 2006 at 5:21 pmGiven the 35 million Iraqi’s combined with the 68 million Iranians and the Al Quaeda jihadists from the surounding countries all in coordination we would face a strategic situation that we do not have the military resources to control,
Comment by Clif
The population of a country is meaningless against technology. Even Red China would not stand a chance in a conventional war with the USA.
“Whatever happens we have got, the Maxim Gun, and they have not.”
Hillaire Belloc
airpower is not very effective against a well supported determined insurgency.
It is if you take out their support in the Sunni triangle. Where do you think they are building all those IEDs?
Both the soviets in Afganistan and thr US in Vietnam learned this lesson the hard way.
US technology beat the soviets and the Filthy Left in America beat the chicken shits in Washington. Our military forces have never been beaten.
So long term troops in iraq is not the slam dunk I get from your post, or the neocons in DC think
We did not spend billions and two thousand lives to liberate a bunch of ragheads, neither did we spend it for oil we could buy on the open market. We spent it to position ourselves for WWIII. George and the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy has saved our collective asses and put us in a position to win the next big war….or stop it from happening in the first place. George will go down in history as our nation’s greatest president since Lincoln.
February 1st, 2006 at 5:34 pmIf only we could get the democrats to agree.
If the democratic leaders would unite behind their leader, Howard Dean, like the republicans do, then maybe they would make some noise.
February 1st, 2006 at 6:21 pmWORFEUS, if I wanted to blindly follow a leader, I would register Republican.
February 1st, 2006 at 7:01 pm#98 – “I didn’t realize our current president was involved in the decision making process post WWII.” – Jay
*****He was – from the crib… Seriously, Jay, you have a terrible impediment – the inability to decipher much of anything in several paragraphs. But that’s OK, we know that some people enjoy discussing alternative points of view and others (you perhaps?) don’t.
Re: Good Protest/Bad Protest….Good protest is viable – it moves an argument forward – note the purple fingers didn’t say “We ALL voted for Sam,”
Cindy “Bush is the greatest terrorist” Sheehan, is in bed (figuratively slow ones) with our enemies. And her courageous son Casey was not a victim of the draft, he was a grown up who signed up – twice. I am sorry for her loss – but she is making a mockery of his sacrifice. And the benevolent society we live in with our beloved 1st Amendment lets her go right on saying whatever she wants to say. But remember, the Capitol police did her a huge favour – for the likes of her, getting arrested is a BADGE of honour. God knows, after Delay kicked himself to the curb, Dems could use another “face” for fund-raising.
#103 – Hippie – I think the International Court of Justice embraced in the days post WWII would have been hugely surprised by the corruption at that bastion of internationalism, your beloved UN, and some of the “members” of the Human Rights Committee. But thank you for reiterating the notion I have developed here that the point of Think Progress is to obfuscate. The argument I was making was regarding, specifically, the Roman and British empires – that must have flown past your pony tail.
February 1st, 2006 at 7:02 pm“*****He was – from the crib… Seriously, Jay, you have a terrible impediment – the inability to decipher much of anything in several paragraphs. But that’s OK, we know that some people enjoy discussing alternative points of view and others (you perhaps?) don’t. mighty aphrodite”
Sweetie, a smart and sane person might realize that if they post a comment that needs ‘deciphering’, that maybe they’re posting nonsense. Oh well, I forgive you for your silliness and baseless attacks on others. Carely you’re scared into yourpartisan insanity.
” The argument I was making was regarding, specifically, the Roman and British empires – that must have flown past your pony tail.
Comment by mighty aphrodite “
Is that the same set of empires that got bogged down in dealing with the insurrections from the forced slave labor that lived under them? See there’s more similarities than you realize pumpkin. All of those countries that have been pushed further into poverty by colonial values and corporate exploitation are fighting back. And partisan blinders like the horsie ones you wear will always prevent you from ‘deciphering’ reality.
But I forgive you – because clearly you’re trying to perceive the world – even if you don’t at the moment have the correct parts of your brain active to do so. If you weren’t so ‘emotional’ and ‘irrational’, maybe you’d see more? I hope so pumpkin. Give it a try – I’ve seen glimmers that a smart old gal is hiding under that silly partisan wall! Come on, think for yourself for just one day pumpkin – you can do it!
February 1st, 2006 at 7:15 pmaphrodite,
Please explain what I’ve miised in deciphering your statements? Seriously. Reread what you wrote, it doesn’t make any sense. What does our current President and the horrible foreign policy direction he’s taken us in have to do with decisions that U.S. leadership made post WWII? I’m perfectly willing to debate and if you make a valid point I’ll say so….but that was pure nonsense.
Also, you failed to respond to the rebuttal to your misinformed remark regarding Eastern Europe as an outpost. If you’re going to debate, you need to have your fatcs straight or expect your claims to be debunked.
When you fail to respond to the content of the argument, I can only assume that you’ve given up on the debate.
February 1st, 2006 at 7:21 pmJay,
Our lovely goddess is showing classic signs of partisan brain.
I’ve noticed that the poor gal can’t think rationally when she’s talking about terrorists. She had an almost reasonable response about lobbying, but I think that might have been a false reading.
February 1st, 2006 at 7:48 pmRightPunch,
I think you’re right. This study sounds as if it defines cognitive dissonance, a term that started getting thrown around a lot when clear thinking individuals were trying to understand the rationale behind supporting BushCo after many of the administrations biggest Iraq lies had been exposed.
I like your forgiveness approach by the way, it’s disarming and shows far more patience than I’m willing to grant.
February 1st, 2006 at 8:02 pmIf you haven’t read up on cognitive dissonance, here is a brief explanation. I think it hits on some of the same ideas.
http://www.learningandteaching.info/learning/dissonance.htm
February 1st, 2006 at 8:07 pmCan I just say how nice it is of the police to help our veterans acclimatize to the culture shock of returning from combat in Iraq.
I mean, wasn’t it nice of that trooper to open up on that veteran who just got back? The smell of gunpowder and the smell of hot lead searing through flesh must have made that soldier feel right at home thanks to that cop.
Our brave heros in blue helping our returning war heros adjust to civilian life. It makes me proud to be an American.
You know, I heard they put the cop on paid administrative leave.
Maybe they’ll give him a medal or something. :|
February 1st, 2006 at 9:25 pmIt is amazing how you people think that a poll by anyone actually gives you any kind of accuracy. LOL.
February 1st, 2006 at 9:34 pmIf they did, then the dems would be in the whitehouse.
IE: exit polls
Exit polls are factual.
Funny how so many democratic areas who on exit polling voted democrat, suddenly found an overwhelming majority had voted republicans.
Funny how that happened the first time we went to computerized voting.
February 1st, 2006 at 10:30 pmor it could be that only dems answer to exit polls.
February 1st, 2006 at 11:24 pm#112 – “Please explain what I’ve miised in deciphering your statements? Seriously. Reread what you wrote, it doesn’t make any sense.” – Jay
*****Been there – done that….
“What does our current President and the horrible foreign policy direction he’s taken us in…” – Jay, again
******Jay, I hate to contradict the obviously high self-esteem transmitted in your posts, BUT your OPINIONS are not facts. (i.e.”…the horrible foreign policy…”) They are just that – your opinions…
“… with decisions that U.S. leadership made post WWII?” – simply, Jay
***** It might be argued that the US has engaged in a continuum foreign policy since WWI – as you undoubtedly know, or have an unsupported opinion about.
“I’m perfectly willing to debate and if you make a valid point I’ll say so….but that was pure nonsense.” – Jay
*****Jay, you have failed to demonstrate your ability to decipher a “valid point”. Your opinion about “my point” means little or nothing.
“Also, you failed to respond to the rebuttal to your misinformed remark regarding Eastern Europe as an outpost. If you’re going to debate, you need to have your fatcs straight or expect your claims to be debunked.” – Jay, again
******I have always had a peculiar sympathy for people who are not nuanced readers. You need to have such explicit information that a picture book might help you connect the dots – I’ll do my best. (Don’t be so offended – it would be the same if a PhD were to try to have a discussion with me about molecular biology – I’d be in deep $h*t.)
My discussion was about the US NOT (!!!!) acquiring the territoreies of defeated Germany, Italy and Japan (use of a multi-colour map might assist you here). HAD the US expanded it’s territory to include the vanquished enemy, Japan, (often referred to as the FAR EAST) would have comprised the US’ most eastern territory. Stay with me here – Had the US chosen to occupy the defeated Italy,Germany and the territories of any German collaborator country (**HINT**think Austria) and/or if we decided that an American Empire was preferable to a Soviet satellite system, American territory would have been world-wide. Thus, portions of Eastern Europe would have been AMERICAN outposts on the way to or from Japan.
Please don’t bother to respond – I don’t think I could suffer through another frustrating exercise like this. Just a small aside – are you a public high school graduate??
What a tedious and mundane exercise…..Zzzzzzz…..
Terry – you are toooooooo clever!!! My mother, bless her soul, said “never kiss a snake”. You appear to eager to engage in an honest debate but….HA! I’ll just get back to my quips and snide remarks about progs – with the exception of one or two donks, debate often proves to be a remedial exercise. Once again, Terry, well done….but as the old Who song says “won’t get fooled again”……
February 1st, 2006 at 11:31 pm#118 – Dear Worfeus – those darn exit polls sure fouled up the works in the Palestinian election, too. But I’m sure the surprise Hamas win was NO surprise to the EVil Geo. W. He probably engineered the whole thing – right under the hapless Jimmy Carter’s nose – could it be his plot to destroy civilization?
February 1st, 2006 at 11:37 pm“******Jay, I hate to contradict the obviously high self-esteem transmitted in your posts, BUT your OPINIONS are not facts. (i.e.â€â€¦the horrible foreign policy…â€) They are just that – your opinions…”
How would you know sweetie?
“*****Jay, you have failed to demonstrate your ability to decipher a “valid pointâ€. Your opinion about “my point†means little or nothing. mighty aphrodite”
Pumpkin, facts don’t need to be deciphered, but partisan rhetoric posted by hysterical and emotional partisans who can’t stay on topic do. Poor pumpkin, you try so hard, but say so little.
“******I have always had a peculiar sympathy for people who are not nuanced readers. mighty aphrodite”
Don’t you mean you can’t understand why others can’t jump to the same wild hysterical and partisan conclusions you can on flimsy and typically contradictory evidence? It’s your partisan brain honey. And are you sure it’s sympathy? The way you attack it seems more like hatred and revulsion. See I’m not revolted by the partisan attacks you make, because I understand that you’re well intentioned but mentally disabled by your partisan brain. It doesn’t make you evil, or horrible, just disabled.
“Stay with me here – Had the US chosen to occupy the defeated Italy,Germany and the territories of any German collaborator country (**HINT**think Austria) and/or if we decided that an American Empire was preferable to a Soviet satellite system, American territory would have been world-wide. Thus, portions of Eastern Europe would have been AMERICAN outposts on the way to or from Japan. mighty aphrodite”
Actually Russia had to kill lots of eastern europeans to accomplish this goal and impose an entirely authoritarian system that eventually brought down their own country. So your belief that we should emulate the soviets is just so partisan, so silly, and so transparently unfounded that it kinda makes me laugh. When people grow up believing in talking donkeys, naiviety and gullibility seems to be a natural component to the personality.
“Just a small aside – are you a public high school graduate?? mighty aphrodite”
I personally would prefer a high school graduate in full command of their reasoning centers, than a supposedly smart partisan who can’t form a rational argument about the simplest topic. The really sad part is that most high school graduates know their limitations – the same is never true of the partisan. Poor things.
“What a tedious and mundane exercise…..Zzzzzzz….. mighty aphrodite”
Do you have sleep apnia? You always make the sleepy sign that I suspect you have concentration problems. I mean after all, the repetitive and boring nature of republican partisan postings could cause people to go into a coma, but I don’t Zzzzz the same old anti-commie comments, or anti-security comments, or any number of other hateful, slanderous and BORING comments that you make. How sad that this is the most creative effort a partisan brain can make ‘Zzzzz…. I’ve heard that sleep apnia can affect the cognitive and reasining abilities of people. It would explain a lot about you goddess ;)
It’s OK pumpkin. I know you’re trying hard to hurt, slap, mame and otherwise injure those YOU think are undermining your sense of security. But see, that sense of insecurity is all in your brain – and not brought about by liberals. Poor pumpkin, you’ve never been taught how to tell allegory from life, so your hysteria now is totally out of sync with the world you live in. But you should know that we love this country as much or most certainly more than you do – because we actually know what it means to be an american. And I hope, wish and desire that someday you can understand that meaning as well. I wish you well goddess, and I wish you find your way out of this madness you now live with.
February 2nd, 2006 at 12:25 am“#118 – Dear Worfeus – those darn exit polls sure fouled up the works in the Palestinian election, too. But I’m sure the surprise Hamas win was NO surprise to the EVil Geo. W. He probably engineered the whole thing – right under the hapless Jimmy Carter’s nose – could it be his plot to destroy civilization?
Comment by mighty aphrodite — February 1, 2006 @ 11:37 pm”
Hey sweetie, maybe they used George’s machines for the Palestinian elections. It’s known worldwide how partisan republicans steal elections – so why shouldn’t the palestinians get in on the action.
Frankly I wouldn’t be surprised if Hamas stole the election, any more than I’d be surprised if partisan republicans would steal it. Partisan and zealous behaviors are common in all groups – as you clearly show us daily oh goddess.
But actually mighty aphrodite, this is simpler to answer, but it requires actual knowledge of palestinian elections – something that republican partisans never seem to arm themselves with – why is that?
And ironically you say you’re in San Diego, and here’s a comment from one of your fellow Sooo Cal folks on the matter. See unlike the US, the palestinian elections are much harder to exit poll on.
Those who are MUCH smarter, wiser and better educated than yourself on the topic – oh non-omnipotent goddess – say the following.
Doesn’t it just make you beg for the american system where we KNOW that the republicans stole the election? I certainly prefer the american version ;)
February 2nd, 2006 at 12:32 amAlthough S&K’s contract called for Pentagon background checks, some of which were actually carried out, according to former S&K employees, Mr. Stein was given extraordinary authority in Iraq to authorize and spend money, in spite of his fraud conviction in the mid-1990’s.
George and the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy has saved our collective asses and put us in a position to win the next big war….or stop it from happening in the first place. George will go down in history as our nation’s greatest president since Lincoln.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I #107
Yo I’diotic-Rodent-I’nfestation,
Make that “the MOST corrupt president since Harding”…
Read today’s NYT story about these thieves from Bremer’s CPA entitled “Guilty Plea and Wider Scheme are Seen In Rebuilding of Iraq”
Excerpt:
“Although S&K’s contract called for Pentagon background checks, some of which were actually carried out, according to former S&K employees, Mr. Stein was given extraordinary authority in Iraq to authorize and spend money, in spite of his fraud conviction in the mid-1990’s.
Mr. Stein’s control over astonishing sums of cash became so great, interviews with former officials in Hilla indicate, that at one point he and others picked up $58.8 million in shrink-wrapped $100 bills from provisional authority headquarters and drove back with it to Hilla. There Mr. Stein controlled access to the vault where the cash was put — though not before local employees posed for pictures in front of the money.”
February 2nd, 2006 at 8:28 amaphrodite said:
Please don’t bother to respond – I don’t think I could suffer through another frustrating exercise like this.
I’m sure you couldn’t. Having your ridiculous statements and ideas so thoroughly debunked must be embarassing. You are an empty vessel and a credit to the conservative movement.
February 2nd, 2006 at 8:38 amaphrodite said:
Please don’t bother to respond – I don’t think I could suffer through another frustrating exercise like this.
It’s not quite so frustrating if you call them a few names. I’ve got a bunch I’m not using right now. Let me know if you’d like to borrow some.
February 2nd, 2006 at 10:47 amThanks I-R-I, Those names – preferably ugly nouns with colourful adjectives, will come in handy. I think the secret of the progressive movement can be summed in the following comparisons:
There are 2 types of Republicans – wealthy, industrious entrepenuers and
lower – middle class hard working, law abiding people.
There are two types of Progs – wealthy, trust fund babies and a few indutrious agnostic entrepenuers
February 2nd, 2006 at 4:18 pmand folks who are the last ones to show up for work and the first to leave.
and folks who are the last ones to show up for work and the first to leave.
Comment by mighty aphrodite
You forgot the ones that have figured out they don’t have to work because they know we’ll sacrafice and feed our kids oatmeal twice a week so they can hang.
February 2nd, 2006 at 8:48 pmAnd her courageous son Casey was not a victim of the draft, he was a grown up who signed up – twice. I am sorry for her loss – but she is making a mockery of his sacrifice
Comment by mighty aphrodite #110
Puny Hermaphrodite,
No you aren’t sorry for Cindy Sheehan’s loss!
Stop LYING…
…you don’t give a sh*t as long as it’s not one of your kids…or goats or whatever they call your kind!
You inbred Bushites ONLY care about how Bushiva looks in the eyes of the world…and where you can steal another dime…
Go “copulate” yourself, and take your fake sympathy with you!
February 3rd, 2006 at 1:16 pmBig Poppa,
You have some anger issues!!
But i have a question.
February 4th, 2006 at 10:40 pmHow would you feel if; You died for a cause you felt strongly enough about to sign up twice for, Like abortion rights(im guessing).
Then your mother goes out and fights like a maniac to end a womens right to choose in your name.
the fact that cindy doesnt agree with the war is irrelavent when it comes to casey. HE felt the war was worth his life. Twice.
If she wants to fight the war thats fine. But fighting it in her son’s name is wrong.
I agree with democrats on one point for sure, I think we should pull out of Iraq. I think we should let Iran build whatever nuclear facilities they want, since India, China and so many other countries have nuclear weapons. We should keep to ourselves and stay out of other countries business. It should be open markets for everyone, wether it is the opium they are selling or cocain or plutonium. They should be free to do as they wish. If we are attacked again, we should turn the other cheek. If we are hit by a Nuclear attack we should then retaliate with only the same amount of force. And only on those specific people who launched the attack against us without killing any innocent people of that country. Like a smart warhead. We shouldnt try to prevent war by starting one. We should have let the germans take over the world in world war 1, so none of our people died, and we should have only warned the Japanese about attacking us after pearl harbor. We should do lots of drugs and be pacifists and just let it be the way it is. “Sarcasm”! You people make me sick with your double talk, how we should leave everyone alone, but dont let anyone attack us, just sit back and wait. Then when they do, boo hoo why didnt you stop them in advance? Why did you not act before? Because of idiotic whiners on the left told us to back off and leave all those nice countries alone.Make up your little minds people.If you think we are there for the oil then stop using it, stupid, quit consuming at the highest rate in the world. Do you think your soldiers were told they would never have to do their job when they signed up, and that college money was free and their pay was just for being in fatigues, and they would never have to fight someone who isn’t in military clothing. You are afraid and your cowardness is shown as a group, you shouldnt be afraid, because you then weaken your soldiers resolve to do their job and come home safely. YOU are causing more insurgents to rise up against your own sons and daughters by putting your fears out for the world to see.
February 5th, 2006 at 11:12 amInsurgents and Democrats agree- U S troops need to leave Iraq
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