John Hinderaker Politely Responds
John Hinderaker Politely Responds
John Hinderaker of Powerline has responded to my post last night. An excerpt:
One of the dimmest of the dimwitted left-wing web sites has tried to respond to this post… Sadly, I think a great many liberals are this stupid. Worse, I think that many liberals–like the proprietor of the hate site…are so far gone in hatred of President Bush that everything they say and do is said and done in bad faith. Like Jack Murtha, they have lost any ability to distinguish truth from fiction, and any desire to do so.
In my experience, when you respond to criticism with a string of insults it usually means you have a really strong argument.
Yesterday’s post documented five demonstrably false claims made by Hinderaker. He only defends one. Hinderaker concedes that Cheney did say Iraq possessed nuclear weapons but says it was only “a slip of the tongue.” That’s right, it was a just a “slip of the tongue” made on national television four days before the war. Cheney didn’t bother to correct it for six months.
Hinderaker appears to be a lost cause. But please contact other bloggers who are pushing around his misinformation as fact. Point them to our original post and tell them to correct the record for their readers. Contact information below:
Glenn Reynolds (Instapundit): pundit@instapundit.com
Ian Schwartz (Expose the Left): ian@ianschwartz.com
Midwest Jim (Gateway Pundit): midwestjim@charter.net
NOTE: If you hear back from any of these bloggers, let us know.
UPDATE: Riehl World View takes issues with my criticism of Powerline: “Judd at Think Progress is either nuts, dumb, intentionally mis-reporting the facts, or all of the above.”
To their credit, it’s actually a far more substantive rebuttal than Hinderaker. Basically, RWV identifies conflicting (although not necessarily more reliable) data for some of the fact I use to support Murtha’s argument.
If Hinderaker made the argument that there is some data that conflicts with Murtha’s data I wouldn’t have had a problem. But he didn’t do that. Hinderaker said Murtha had “gone around the bend” and “[p]retty much every ‘fact’ that [he] hysterically tossed out is wrong.” That was the problem with Hinderaker’s “argument.”
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When mad cow is eating their brains does it really do any good?
March 6th, 2006 at 10:36 amThis is just another example of their bullying tactics..
March 6th, 2006 at 10:38 amThe worst of Hinderaker’s many bad qualities, is that he’s a coward.
Hinderaker calls ThinkProgress posters stupid? He is a certified moron Bush loving apologist idiot from Mars >lol.
March 6th, 2006 at 10:39 amWay to catch Hinderaker out. I don’t think he’s a lost cause. Maybe he’s always like this, but his response sounds a bit hysterical. A few more gentle pushes in the right direction, and his little mental house of cards might come right down. Fun for us, good for him.
March 6th, 2006 at 10:44 amName calling was what I used to resort to as a chile when backed into a corner by my own either lie or bad behavior. Funny how some people never outgrow this.
I only resort to name calling now to emphasise the truth, for example, Bush is a liar. I can support this with numerous facts. Bush is a criminal. I can also support this with facts. Bush is an idiot. OK, that was a name. In reality he is not intellectually curious, in other words, he dose’t read or listen to much of anything excpt his own Yes-Men or handlers.
As to Hindraker, well just read a little of his blog and you understand that it’s a propoganda site for the right wing, and little else.
March 6th, 2006 at 10:46 amMr. Hinderaker;
I just LOVE that 3rd grade debate style. Yes, congrats are in order. Both you and O’Liely have perfected the art of the name-calling when embarrassed. When proven wrong. When shown to be astoundingly ignorant. When exposed for egregiously lying. Just keep calling names. And then, I guess, go tell Mom about the big, bad TP website?
I’m glad you learned SOMETHING in 3rd grade. Or course, I would have expected you to have developed some more mature debate skills over the years other than calling us “dimwitted” and “stupid”. But alas, 3rd grade was your high point. Your debate skills apex. So sad, really, that you’re stuck there. Perhaps a game of 4-square during recess and a PB&J sandwich will help things?
March 6th, 2006 at 10:46 amOnly Bush lovers are dimwitted fools, so Hinderaker gets the FASCIST DUMMY of the year award! Everyone contact Powerline to get that creep fired! Rep. Murtha is a good honest individual, so Hinderaker owes him an apology!
March 6th, 2006 at 10:47 amJudd,
I am having a little difficulty with your statement about responding with insults. I would think that the responder did not have a strong argument for his position and was attempting to cloud the issue rather than eschewing obfuscation.
March 6th, 2006 at 10:47 amHindrocket don’t got to show you no f***ing facts. He is a man of faith, not logic.
March 6th, 2006 at 10:47 amI sent him an e-mail with the following pageview information:
Top 4 Conservative Blogs – Via Blogads.com
Powerline – 590,127
RedState – 288,135
HughHewitt – 263.388
Wizbang – 188,841
Top 4 Liberal Blogs – Via Blogads.com
March 6th, 2006 at 10:49 amDailyKos – 4,053,290
Democratic Underground – 1,434,904
Crooks and Liars – 1,282,182
Talking Points Memo – 990,132
You regardless of whether us liberals hate the president are not, and I certainly don’t consider myself a hater of the president, we do not instruct Cheney what to say and to call his words a slip of the tongue is ridiculous. I saw the broadcast in which he made his statement and he gave every indication of winning his words carefully. All of this would have its funny side were it not for the fact that many deaths have resulted from this administration’ mistakes.
March 6th, 2006 at 10:50 amSNAP!
March 6th, 2006 at 10:51 amClyde:
I was being sarcastic.
March 6th, 2006 at 10:52 amYou just happend to mention one quote. It really goes to the whole body of statemente, real and implied, prior to the war. The “mushroom cloud” quote implies nuclear weapons, which is almost as bad as saying they outright had them. Even in Dick Cheney’s quote, he mentions nuclear weapons or the programs numerous times. Powerline seems to be splitting hairs, kind of like trying to define what the definition of “is” is.
BTW, why doesn’t powerline allow comments to be seen publicly like this one?
March 6th, 2006 at 10:52 amHinderaker is desperate. The GOP’s gaslighting is failing everywhere now, and in every imaginable field of endeavor. The hardcores are starting to crumble.
March 6th, 2006 at 10:52 amIn my experience, when you respond to criticism with a string of insults it usually means you have a really strong argument.
I think you meant:
In my experience, when you respond to criticism with a string of insults it usually means you DON’T have a really strong argument.
March 6th, 2006 at 10:53 amSo I don’t get it.
Why does this “Hate” stuff seem to fascinate Reichtwingnutz so much? What I mean by that is they are always labeling Liberals/Progressives as “Haters” and that is one of their underlying mantra’s of the “left”.
This is a very curious manifestation coming from a group that thinks the words of Rush oxycotin Limbaugh, Michael Savage, exc should be etched on tablets of stone and placed next to the 10 Commandments. Talk about haters.
Maybe they are just trying to cover up their own dirty laundry in that respect and thinks this will work for them. I’ve never been able to truely make the link though.
For our resident bushies: We LOATH bushco’s Policies, Participants & Lies, We don’t HATE (most of us). Hate hurts the hater, not the hatee. Got that?
March 6th, 2006 at 10:54 amSorry Judd. I thought I had a corner on sarcasm. Keep up the good work!
March 6th, 2006 at 10:57 am#16 – See Judd’s comment on #13 (He was being sarcastic)
March 6th, 2006 at 10:57 amMaybe CENTCOM will contact those other bloggers and correct them. Didn’t CENTCOM announce last week an initiative to do this type of thing?
March 6th, 2006 at 10:58 amYeah, we’re the hateful ones! Sure…
I think this statement says quite a bit:
MORE: Expose the Left has viodeo (sic) of Murtha’s meltdown.
March 6th, 2006 at 10:59 amDead-enders. Every war has ‘em.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:00 amYeah, that Jack Murtha is so far removed from facts. Must be from all his ficticious visits to the VA hospitals.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:00 amthe wingnuts are sinking in all areas. Now comes the ‘hate’ and ‘anger’ when reality slaps them in the face. They think ‘god’ is only on their side, and now they can’t be ‘mad at god’, so their mad at everything else. This ‘we can’t be wrong,because god is on our side’ attitude is cracking, and they are MAD!.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:03 amIs it name calling to say that Ted Bundy was a murderer? If it’s not name calling to say that he’s a murderer, then it’s not name calling to say that the Bush Administration lied in the leadup to the Iraq War and therefore they’re liars.
It’s well known that people who respond with name calling rather than debating the points usually cannot debate the points, and that is why they are name calling.
I don’t hate George Bush. I hate what he has done. I hate the behavior. I attack his behavior.
Hindracker says that we must hate George Bush, but that’s because Hindracker makes personal attacks and is a name caller himself. He assumes incorrectly that everyone else is a name caller, when the truth is that most people attack issues and positions taken by their opponents rather than attacking the person who holds those positions.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:04 amHindrocket didn’t have the courage to link to TP’s debunking.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:08 amThat’s the only way they survive – by creating an internal network of propaganda which the faithful never venture from.
I watched the Murtha interview yesterday because I’m still trying to determine what’s really going in Iraq, what we can possibly do about it and what interests and perspectives various voices in the debate represent.
I felt Hinderaker mischaracterized Murtha’s demeanor and presentation so I was happy to follow your suggestion ask him to correct his remarks. Here’s the email exchange:
On 3/5/06, [cs] wrote:
Okay, I came here via Think Progress, having watched the Murtha interview on Face the Nation for myself this a.m. Let me remind you that, in the words of Patrick Moynihan, “Everyone’s entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”
See Think Progress for facts:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&hs=A46&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=Patrick+Moynihan+quote&spell=1
On 3/5/06, Power Line wrote:
[cs], did you even bother to read my post before firing off an email? You obviously haven’t read the update, where I responded to the ridiculous attack by the lefty site you rely on. Why do you liberals write emails denouncing posts you haven’t even bothered to
read? Worse yet, based on dimwitted sites like “Think Progress”?
Sad.
On 3/5/06, [cs] wrote:
No, I didn’t read your updated post and won’t. Why are you so mean?
Since Hinderaker asked me a direct question, it behooved me to answer him honestly. Apparently, he hasn’t felt behooved back.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:09 amCompulsive liars have taken themselves out of the realm of discourse by their own deceitful arguments. Face it, Hindrocket is a kult member not an American, and as such he needs to be kept warm and quiet.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:11 amCommentary…
I’m not normally one to defend Powerline, but this has got to be the worst fact-check ever. Amazingly, it’s being approvingly linked by various lefties. …
March 6th, 2006 at 11:14 amYou want name-calling – try Wankosphere.com.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:15 amBTW, why doesn’t powerline allow comments to be seen publicly like this one?
Because he, like all other major (and most minor) right-wing bloggers, is a) afraid of getting their asses factually kicked on their own turf, and b) afraid of having their own commenters unintentionally undermine their efforts to speak in code about their goals (it’s hard for LGF’s Charles Johnson to pretend he’s not a racist when his site’s biggest fans are dorks like “Iron Fist”).
March 6th, 2006 at 11:16 amPost 29 > if you defend Hinderaker and Powerline, then go post on their extreme far-right fascist blog and NOT here!
March 6th, 2006 at 11:17 amQandO: If it’s so bad, why don’t you explain it to us?
March 6th, 2006 at 11:17 amKindness – #17
Now THAT was funny. Claiming you don’t hate, while calling conservatives “Reichtwingnutz” in the same post is just the juciest irony. Many of these comments are saying that name-callers automatically lose the debate, while simultaneously calling their opposition names. “O’Liely”. “Dimwitted fools…fascist dummy…creep.” At least Hardy had the sense to admit he was calling names.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:18 amFunny how Hinderaker’s whole blog is so demonstrably full of lies and falsehoods that he doesn’t even allow readers to post comments. Typical right-wing punditry — make wildly false accusations and allow for no rebuttal. Again, another demonstration of just how weak their arguments are.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:18 amHinderaker should his limit his drooling to Powerline’s Miss Universe Contest coverage.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:18 amAnother bully trying to out do O’reilly Lilly , with their usual hitler’s method : lies , more bigger lies , always lie.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:18 amHinderacker is an embarrassment to the state of MN, and a stain on humanity.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:18 amLook Into Their Eyes…
Do you see anyone that cares?
Atrios points us to this Think Progress post.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:19 amTo summarize, John Hinderaker of Powerline (a.k.a. Assrocket) posted a list of 5 false claims about the Iraq war, in response to Jack Murtha’s appearance on Face the Nat ….
When human beings come to the realization that their entire raison d’etre has been exposed as a third-rate hoax, it’s got to be humiliating. This Hinderaker guy is probably so embarassed he hides under the covers and throws up in his own mouth….whining and namecalling is all he’s got left. For shame.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:19 amIsn’t Assrocket supposed to be an attorney? Where did he go to school?
Perhaps he never learned that when you get taken apart on the facts, and respond with nothing but insults (ad hominems), that means you’ve lost the debate.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:19 amPost 32>On the contrary, those with contrary views should be encourged to post their views here…if they’re trolls, that will soon be evident, but if they’re open to actual debate, they might learn something. At the same time, those who would scorn the presence here of opposing views are no different than the right-wingers who shut out all evidence which refutes their errors.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:22 amQandO,
March 6th, 2006 at 11:23 amplease, feel free to critique TP’s fact check with facts. That would be a welcome change from Assrocket’s babbling.
SETH Post 34 > since you defend Bush and Hinderaker then please go post on Powerline! As for name calling: I believe in dishing it back to whomever flings the sludge!
March 6th, 2006 at 11:23 amI don’t think he’s a lost cause.
These whackjobs truly believe that George W. Bush was sent by God, and can do no wrong. They’re all lost causes. Why bother asking them to correct their “errors,” when their errors are deliberate lies designed to reinforce their own faith?
March 6th, 2006 at 11:26 amAssrocket was probably needing some attention, so he flings out his idiocy. Negative attention is better than no attention.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:28 amWhat we’re experiencing is the beginnings of the Wingnut Breakdown. Cognitive dissonance can be lethal and Mr. Hinderaker’s collapse can’t be far away. The things that he believes to be true are stripped from his comfy world and are left with large gaping holes and the cold winds of reality are leaving him shaking with rage and fear.
I see this with my Wingnut in-laws, too. Slowly, painfully the the “George Bush is nice man and a great leader” idealism is falling from their eyes and what the really see isn’t pretty. I’m not knowledgeable about chemical dependency, but I image the long road of recovery can’t be very different from this.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:29 amthe trolls are sure getting ‘hatefull’ these days..the truth HURTS…OUCH!
March 6th, 2006 at 11:29 amJudd, I saw you on On the Story this weekend. Nice job! Take a nap, poor baby, you looked exhausted.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:30 amRobert1014,
Since you are new here, you have not had to deal with our troll problem. I welcome right wing debaters. Troll can go screw themselves. There is nothing useful that comes from a troll or from trolling. They are NOT welcome here.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:31 amPost 42 Think Progress is a blog for progressives and those who are against Bush and his vile policies! I would never post, let alone visit the Powerline blog, so it is strange for their agents to post on here! (Note: I am NOT picking a fight with you on here and you are entitled to your opinion, even though we differ.)
March 6th, 2006 at 11:31 amAh, Quando’s post was a trackback. And all it provided in the original post was a link to an attempt at Riehl World View to go after Judd’s post.
Sadly, RWV’s rebuttal wasn’t too convincing. Their defense of Cheney’s statement on Iraq reconstituting nuclear weapons (pretty clear on its face) consisted of reading into what the VP MEANT to say.
In regards to drinking water, their defense seems to be that Iraqis can get water; whether or not it can be consumed without making them sick or killing them is irrelevant.
Finally, to “debunk” the claim that Iraqis don’t want us in Iraq, RWV’s rebuttal essentially says that the Iraqis that most don’t want Americans there — the Sunnis — don’t really count as Iraqis.
Fine piece of work, RWV.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:32 amHinderaker engages in classic right-wing framery. Just as Bill O’Reilly(he of hte phonesex harrassment lawsuit and subsequent payoff–wingers—”FeminNazis” comes to mind. Limbaugh also referred to Tom Daschle as “El Diablo” or the Devil. I can’t seem to find any of the “mainstream media” pundits that routinely referred to the Republican rank and file as Nazi’s or to Bush as “Satan”..
So, it is a classic case of “projection“. The one thing that has defined much of the right wing punditry is what they accuse the left.
Also, witness the Republican “mockrage” over the Mrs. Alito weeping fest…..Let us see which wife was subjected to more outrageous attacks on her husband..the weepy Mrs. Alito who had a few tough questions aimed at her husband or the wife of John Kerry who was called among other things criminal”“coward, traitor, and war …But, oh, when push comes to shove the Republicans and the right just can’t bear to see some of their own subjected to the same character assassination that has aided and abetted their rise to the top.
So, rage away Hinderaker, rage away…
-GSD
March 6th, 2006 at 11:35 am“hate site.” Yesterday on Fox the talking head used “hate message” referring to a new al-Qaeda video. A few moments later the talking head used the term “race hate” referring to the incident at UNC. Newspeak is here.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:35 amOh! I missed one. RWV tried to “prove” the Iraq-al Qaeda connection by reviving the bogus talking points about Al Zarqawi and Ansar al-Islam. That one’s pretty much settled, wingnuts, but for the benefit of those who haven’t heard: Al Zarqawi wasn’t much involved with Al Qaeda before the war, and Ansar al-Islam was operating in Kurdish territory — out of the control of Saddam Hussein and Iraq proper.
So, we have a .000 batting average thus far. Think they’ll take another swing at it, or cut their losses and just let this one go?
March 6th, 2006 at 11:37 amI love this site, I think one of the strongest criticisms of the right wing sites (like Powerline) is that they don’t show comments so that their followers won’t be confused with “facts†that contradict what they say. But if we are to proclaim ideals that we feel make us above such sites, well then I am embarrassed by the few of us who tell the right wing commenters that come on here to “go to their own site otherwise, what makes us better than them?
March 6th, 2006 at 11:39 amThe right wing mantra, about the “hate” on the left, is an important part of propagandizing. Instead of discussing the issue at hand, they accuse the left as haters, which deflects the debate, and puts the left on the defensive, having to now waste time refuting this nonsense. The other reason is that they can just dismiss liberals outright because they are so hateful.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:39 amanybody heard of the Claremont Institute? Its a conservative think-tank and look who’s a member;
I can understand why Judd was being sarcastic, assrocket pimps Iraqi dinars too. How do you say Christian greed?
March 6th, 2006 at 11:40 amYea Seth II, I frequently use the term Reichtwingnutz. And when I use it, I do mean to be fully explaining what I think of the buscho, Limbaugh, Savage apologists. That is, I don’t think much of the current crop. They have fascist inclinations. So saying as much, shouldn’t be a surprise to see it in writing here.
But irony…. I don’t see hate anywhere in reichtwingnutz. I see a demeaning of those individuals. That isn’t hate. I see a statement of their political stance (which I do disapprove of). That isn’t hate. Where do you see hate?
Would you like me to list the fascist tendencies of this administration? I’ve done it so many times here, regulars are sick of it, I’m sure. But hate?
Maybe you’ve mixed up your definition of Irony? We can help you with a link for that too.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:40 amAnd I note that RWV, like Powerline and most of the rest of the Cowardosphere, doesn’t have comments enabled.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:40 amThe collapse is under way. They will now attempt to lay the blame for the failures of their party, their president and their ideology right at the feet of those who were against most of the failing policies in the first place.
So even with control of the Whitehouse, the Congress, large swathes of the judicial branch as well as large swathes of the corporatist media..they will do what those in power always do when their failings come to light…they will point the finger of blame elsewhere..mostly at those who are blameless and less able to defend themselves.
Machiavelli 101.
-GSD
March 6th, 2006 at 11:40 am#34 some commenters are name-callers, some commenters deplore name-calling, a few do both. However, the original post by Hinderaker stands with only the minor of corrections. That is what we are debating.
Powerline states that 232,000 + Iraqi troops have been trained. But why, then, do the latest reports show that ZERO Iraqi brigades have the ability to fight on their own.
There is an odd logic going on here. To those that ascribe to powerline logic if you speak the truth it hurts the war effort. Essentially this means that there is no way to hold this administration accountable for any of their mistakes. It clearly becomes a matter of faith. We must keep fighting no matter what is going on there and no matter how flawed our original assumptions were. His logic allows no other course.
Kind of depressing, actually.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:40 amName calling in and of itself isn’t wrong or a bad debate tactic. It’s when you do that in lieu of providing actual facts or debate points that it becomes a problem.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:43 amPost 56 if you want to be embarrassed about some like myself telling PAID trolls, like SETH, to post elsewhere, then be so, but that attitude is exactly WHY the Democrats in DC lose every fight with the GOP! They get embarrassed because Howard Dean dishes out the dirt on Dubya and Cheney, but actually they become wimpy themselves for caving like sheep! I for one am NOT embarrassed to call the far-right Bush lovers > toads or fascists!
March 6th, 2006 at 11:47 ami think you meant:
brooklyn girl, i think judd was being ironic, which is a fancy word for sarcastic. you may also know it as snarky.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:48 amAlso, notice how quickly the Right adopts the language of victimization when it suits them. For years they have carped at the left for being “race pimps” and advocates of “victimhood”.
Yet, the same crowds that cheered AryAnn Coulter recently when she said” “9/11 taught us, raghead talks tough, raghead dies”..are now claiming that any criticism of the Bush/Dubai ports deal is based in racism and the arguments will hurt the “sensitivities” of the Muslim world….
The same people who were forwarding hate filled spam e-mails about how the “poor, fat blacks” from New Orleans were ruining Texas were up in arms about the alleged “Oreo cookie” incident involving Lt. Gov. Michael Steele of Maryland..
No, get ready to have a concerted right wing full court press to blame all of the current failures on this ruling goup to those who were no where near the scene of the crime.
It is coming lefties, get ready to fight back with all your hearts and minds because it is coming.
-GSD
March 6th, 2006 at 11:48 amI hate the president. I hate what he’s done to our country and how many he’s directly or indirectly killed.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:49 amwho is Frank?
Remember Bush came out and said there were 4 battalions who could fight by themselves, then Pace had to come out and correct him that there was only one battalion? Well, that battalion was downgraded from “level 1″ to “level 2″ meaning they can’t fight withou our help.
That combined with the Deputy Director of the War on Terrorism coming out Saturday and saying that we are making terrorists faster than we can kill them blows assrockets arguement out the window.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:49 amShannon,
Thank you for the statistics between progressive and RepubliKKKan blogs, but Mr Hinderaker (who has a stupid name, anyway) can’t read anything that’s intelligent. His behavior represents a juvenile delinquint still in 3rd grade. He’s probably older than us and yet behaves like a 5 year old brat.
If he answers you, post it for us.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:53 amNo, get ready to have a concerted right wing full court press to blame all of the current failures on this ruling goup to those who were no where near the scene of the crime.
I agree GSD, it’s coming.
We must mock and belittle them, for trying to blame their incompetance, corruption, and failure, on the party that has no power whatsoever.
So much for the party of personal responsibilty…
March 6th, 2006 at 11:54 amI am having trouble understanding the left’s obessession with Murtha. Where does Murtha get off calling Pace a liar? Wouldn’t Pace be more knowlegdable than Murtha?
As for Hinderacker, it is easy to see why he insulted you considering you question his mental stability in your rebuttal to him. Coming from a group of people who champions loose cannons like Howard Dean and Al Gore, I can take it in stride. John can’t.
But he makes a good point about the HATE – liberal hatred for Bush is the only talking point the right has left. We certainly can’t run on Bush’s second term record! But, the left’s detachment from reality and that nasty hate really turn off Americans. That seething hatred must be set aside or it will sink Democrats again come fall.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:57 am#41 Isn’t Assrocket supposed to be an attorney? Where did he go to school?
Perhaps he never learned that when you get taken apart on the facts, and respond with nothing but insults (ad hominems), that means you’ve lost the debate.
Comment by Misc
I agree that Hinderaker is quite belligerent, and I feel embarrassed that he is from my state of Minnesota. However, I wouldn’t say that he responded with nothing but insults. He did go into the Cheney nuclear weapons quote at some length, the result of which I judge to be an inadequate defense of Cheney. I think Judd could counter by listing of all the nuclear weapons quotes, hints, and fear mongering from various Administration officials leading up to the war. The key point is really the whole body of these things that influenced Congress and the public. Any individual quote like Cheney’s can be defended to some extent, but the whole body of this effort cannot.
Keep our case on the civil side, and debate the real facts. Then Hinderaker will truly have nothing to stand on.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:59 amThinkProgress a “hate” site?
That’s an odd complaint, coming from Hinderaker. Why, he’s practically joined at the hip with “Little Green Footballs” — an obscure web site for Likudnik bicycling enthusiasts who support worldwide genocide against Muslims.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:00 pmPost 71 the HATRED that you mention comes from yourself and all the rest who love Bush no matter what harm or stupidity he creates! You HATE Democrats and Liberals, but then claim we are the haters? We dislike Bush’s warmongering and lies!
March 6th, 2006 at 12:03 pmAs if integrity meant anything… it’s all a smoke screen to transfer the last dime in the treasury to their personal accounts.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:04 pmIt must really, really suck to have fused your integrity to the George W. Bush administration, only to find out that you’ve been USED to enrich the pharmaceutical industry, the energy industry, Halliburton, Bechtel, and their stockholders. Like when the Germans saw the death camps after the war.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:10 pmSpudge_Boy > hold the fort against the Bush-lover-trolls in here! I have some work to do, so have fun posting comments!
March 6th, 2006 at 12:11 pmComing from a group of people who champions loose cannons like Howard Dean and Al Gore, I can take it in stride. John can’t.
Please tell me, besides the over played infamous “Dean scream”…..what pray tell is the loose cannon aspect of Howard Dean?
He said the war in Iraq was unwinnable? Something that William F. Buckley just agreed with last week.
He said the Republican Party is a party of mainly white Christians? What is loony about that?
The right has attached the “crazy” label to Dean to minimize his effectiveness because he is smart, pugnacious and a very decent man.
Remember, play the “Dean Scream” over and over..then play George W. Bush saying to Al Qaeda, Saddam Loyalists and insurgents “Bring ‘em on”..meaning bring on your IED’s, bombs, RPG’s, and small arms fire onto the American troops on the ground in Iraq. Tell me then which video clip makes which mane look, loony, unhinged and a loose cannon?
-GSD
March 6th, 2006 at 12:12 pmwho the hell is tour de farce.
we get a new crop o trolls every day it seems.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:12 pmWe are just taking our cues from the right. It is the right who created the term “swiftboating.” We will continue to attack as long as the right continues to attack.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:14 pmAs Edward R Murrow said, since he did not address the other four claims, we can only conclude he does not dispute them.
Slip of the tongue? That’s a fancy word for lying.
His “they hate Bush” argument can easily be used against him. He let his hatred of liberals blind him to the truth.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:17 pmI love it when someone from the right comes over here to cry about our alleged hatred for GWB. It is amazing how quickly they forget that they wrote the playbook (See Clinton, William Jefferson 1993-2001).
March 6th, 2006 at 12:19 pmAnd Powerline STILL refuses to actually NAME this site, as well as allow anyone to comment.
Cowards.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:23 pmCZ-1,
I have no problem going after wingnuts on the facts. I also have no problem nailing them with insults, where deserved. I vastly prefer, however, to do both (again, where deserved), as there is a synergistic effect that better reveals the true idiocy of the target in readers’ minds. There is nothing in debate that precludes this, especially when the wingnuts fired first.
If they don’t want to face the heat, then they know which room of the house to avoid.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:24 pm#71
I am having trouble understanding the left’s obessession with Murtha. Where does Murtha get off calling Pace a liar? Wouldn’t Pace be more knowlegdable than Murtha?
He should, but the fact is, Pace has been consistently wrong in his every assertion about the situation in Iraq.
But, the left’s detachment from reality and that nasty hate really turn off Americans.
Can you explain why, if this turns off Americans, the right’s detatchment from reality (last throes, Iraq as a model for the Arab world, etc) and conservatives’ nasty hate of liberals does not?
March 6th, 2006 at 12:24 pmJudd,
You give RWV too much credit (see my rebuttal, above). At most, I give them a half a point on the “water” issue, since the precise wording of Murtha’s statement didn’t include “drinkable” or “usable” water.
However, to most people, it is reasonable to say that if you have access to water that will make you very sick or kill you if you drink it (or perhaps even bathe in it), then you don’t have access to water.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:27 pmPowerline is partially financed through a Minneapolis based financial entity, Twin Cities Federal. They have a job to do…defend this administration; right or wrong.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:29 pmRead the book ‘Powerline’, co-authored by the late Sen. Paul Wellstone. It’s an account of the State of MN taking away farmer’s land to erect a powerline. (They could have just ran it along I-94, but deferred because of ‘asthetics’. It’s a great read on big gov’t taking land for coporate use.
Hindend-raker…your blog may have stole the book’s name, but now I ‘get it’…POWER=Righties need for control & LINE=everything you claim to be fact
Haha. Hindrocket. As I said before, I think my wife has one of those in her sock drawer.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:35 pm#80 – swiftboating was a result of three things:
1) The left’s attacks on Bush’s guard record starting as early as Feb 2004
2) Kerry using his four month Vietnam stint to justify why he should be in the White House. (Kerry ran away from his national security record in Congress.)
3) Legitimate questions about claims Kerry made against the US military in his 1971 testimony.
Kerry could have never been swiftboated had 1 and 2 not occurred. He brought it on himself.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:35 pm#86 It is absolutely reasonable. If your municipal water supply worked one day a month, or even one day a week, and the rest of the time you ran down to the local river to get water and boil it for drinking, would you say you are getting water or not? From a reconstruction perspective, would you say the water supply is there?
It is not reasonable to look at the situation and say the water supply is there and reconstruction is a success.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:36 pmif you want someone to believe the lie, don’t tell them all lies, add a little truth in there to make it “seem” plausible. that is the main problem with alot of these people that just do not look into actual facts and figures. or they use figures from a year ago to make their point. it is a shame that so many Americans are willing, for lack of a better description, to bend over and take it. like that great philosopher mary poppins once said, “a spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down.” and we have all become a nation of swallowers.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:37 pmTour,
The left’s attacks on Bush’s guard record had NOTHING to do with swiftboating. The former was based on real questions raised by Bush’s own record and Bush’s emphasis on that record; the latter was based upon demonstrable lies and was standard operating procedure for the Bush team (they’d done it before with McCain and Cleland, among others).
The simple fact that attacking veterans was standard MO for the Bushes debunks your rationalizations.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:39 pmTour De Farce,
You’re full of shit and don’t know what the hell you are talking about. Now, do I hate you or do I just think you are a dumbass?
March 6th, 2006 at 12:39 pm#89
1) Bush ran away from his National Guard record. Because he supported the Vietnam War and weasled out of fighting it, he brought the criticism upon himself.
2) That’s four months more than Bush served in combat, and he did not run away from national security. He ran on his national security experience and talked at length about what he would do differently in that area.
3) After Bush supporters pilloried Kerry’s criticism of free fire zones, they gave us the Abu Ghraib scandal, which did more damage than any Congressional testimony Kerry gave.
Also, by your logic, Bush is bringing criticism on himself, and nothing is out of bounds in that regard.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:40 pmCynical,
March 6th, 2006 at 12:41 pmAre you disagreeing with me? If so, why do you assume that “the water from the local river” is home-treatable, or even within reach of most Iraqis? We are talking about a desert, after all.
The swiftboat attacks were entirely based upon two things:
1)the premise that medals the Navy gives out are bogus. If you believe in that, it is your opinion.
2) that we did nothing wrong in Vietnam, that the millions killed were not our fault, or we were right to kill them, and the slaughter after we left were not a direct result of our instigation of a bitter 10 year civil war. Again, you are free to hold that opinion.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:43 pmFrom reading your other comments, Cynical, I think we agree that it’s reasonable to say most Iraqis effectively don’t have water, at least not easily available.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:43 pmSorry, Cynical — still getting used to who is a troll and who isn’t. Must spend more time here :)
March 6th, 2006 at 12:45 pm#95 If the municipal water supply is not there, then Murtha is right. Powerlines argument of “If they’re not dead, they have water” is bogus. I’m using an example and in fact most of the Iraqi population live near the two rivers. You can survive without a municipal water supply, but it’s still a failure by any standard.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:45 pmCynical — is TP usually plagued by trolls? Or is this an isolated incident?
March 6th, 2006 at 12:47 pmCommenters have been ripping on CandO for trolling, but note that his post is a trackback. That means it’s just an excerpt of a full blog post CandO has made referencing this post. Click on the link to read the full, though I believe unreasoned, debunking.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:47 pmBoronx,
March 6th, 2006 at 12:49 pmYeah, I noted it was a trackback above. QandO’s own post was not a debunking at all, but merely an insult and a link to Riehl World View’s attempt at a rebuttal.
Misc, TP is indeed plagued trolls but not on all posts. They seem to pick and choose.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:50 pm#92 – your inability to equate attacks on Bush’s guard records with those on Kerry’s displays in full your detachment from reality.
#93 – if tailored in a nice 527 ad, your comments could be perceived as hate. Imagine if Gore runs for Pres…
March 6th, 2006 at 12:51 pmTour,
#92 – your inability to equate attacks on Bush’s guard records with those on Kerry’s displays in full your detachment from reality.
And your failure to address the simple fact that the Bush team has ALWAYS attacked people with smears, and veterans in particular by questioning their war record with smears, means you’ve lost this debate.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:52 pmSometimes, you have to destroy the village to save it. Same goes for the so-called Republican Party. You have to destroy it to save the Republic.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:54 pmTour De Farce,
I would love to see a campaign ad that read.
“Bush, he’s full of shit.”
Truth in advertising.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:54 pmIs it just me, or is Hindrocket sounding more and more like Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf these days?
March 6th, 2006 at 12:54 pm#105 – not true. IT was Democrats who attacked first. Kerry had to think the GOP was going to slam back. AND they did. AND we won.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:54 pmReading the RWV link above I don’t find it much better of a rebuttal. Some of it is fair, other bits seem rather biassed. They managed to read as far as page 44 to find some facts to support their comment, but couldn’t find the figures on the following page (45) that Judd had quoted. Thus making it seem as though those figures weren’t even there. The implication being that Judd just made those figures up while they are quite clearly listed in the report.
Z.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:55 pmRon – I agree with you. Conservatives have dismantled the Democratic Party for their own good and the good of the coutnry. They have become too liberal, out of the mainstream and we need to bring them back to the center.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:56 pmTour De Farce,
Hey nimrod, the republican attacks didn’t start in 2004. They started back when Nixon was running. Grow up, do some research or STFU.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:56 pmTour,
Let’s review. You claimed that swiftboating was in response to the left’s questioning of Bush’s war record, and wouldn’t have happened otherwise. I pointed out that this was something that Bush has a history of doing, whenever he’s up against a veteran, so the premise that he was only doing this in response to an unjustified attack is called into serious question by his history of doing just this every time he faces a veteran.
Either respond to that fact, or admit you were wrong.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:57 pmYes, because what we need is a Christofascist society based on a 2000 year old myth. Get a grip.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:58 pmI’m not defending Powerline; I rarely read it. I’m just pointing out how low a group’s credibility can sink when they basically say in one breath, “Those fascist nazi racist idiots are calling us names…they must not have anything better!”
And yes, kindness, it is hate. Comparisons to Nazis are meant to evoke exactly that emotion. And to apply it to a broad category of people just demonstrates how deep it is.
Actually I would be interested in seeing your comparison of the Bush administration to fascists, but I can believe the regulars probably don’t care to see it again. I would actually look for it myself but:
1. The search function sucks, and
2. Even if it didn’t, a search for “fascist” on this site would probably yield 10,000 hits.
So if you’d rather post a link to a prior thread, I’ll read it. Just keep in mind that “corporatism” is not quite what it sounds like.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:58 pmConservatives have dismantled the Democratic Party
Holy cow, are YOU not paying attention :)
March 6th, 2006 at 12:58 pm“#105 – not true. IT was Democrats who attacked first. Kerry had to think the GOP was going to slam back. AND they did. AND we won.”
Comment by Tour De Farce
I love to see the squatting eunuchs squeal.
March 6th, 2006 at 12:58 pm#113 – Democrats have a history of shamelessly exploiting their military record as a way to avoid a real debate. Kerry symbolized that best.
As for Cleland (I am sure that’s who you are referrin to), he was out of step with GA voters. That’s why he lost. As for McCain, the right claiming he has a temper I think proved to be true.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:02 pmMy mother once sent the lyrics to Bob Dylans “With God on Our Side” To GW Bush, as below. Now I have a question, did he take it in the spirit it was intended or as an affirmation?
Oh my name it is nothin’
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I’s taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.
Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.
Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I’s made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.
Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don’t count the dead
When God’s on your side.
When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.
I’ve learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It’s them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.
But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we’re forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God’s on your side.
In a many dark hour
I’ve been thinkin’ about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can’t think for you
You’ll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.
So now as I’m leavin’
March 6th, 2006 at 1:02 pmI’m weary as Hell
The confusion I’m feelin’
Ain’t no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God’s on our side
He’ll stop the next war.
I wonder if Hinderaker went to bashing conference.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:03 pm#116 – I pay attention to election results, not highly biased polls. If come Nov, Democrats regain power, then it will be push. But there is no denying the disarray the Democratic party has been in post Bush v. Gore. ON every issue – taxes, war, spending, social issues, you name it – the GOP has steamrolled you guys.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:05 pmTour,
#113 – Democrats have a history of shamelessly exploiting their military record as a way to avoid a real debate. Kerry symbolized that best.
As for Cleland (I am sure that’s who you are referrin to), he was out of step with GA voters. That’s why he lost. As for McCain, the right claiming he has a temper I think proved to be true.
See, now this is the point in a debate when most liberals would be admitting “I stand corrected”. We tend to be honest that way.
You’re making excuses for why Cleland and McCain lost, but we’re discussing the simple fact that the Bush team has a history of attacking veterans by smearing their record. That stands in clear contrast to your claim that Kerry wouldn’t have been “swiftboated” if the left hadn’t gone after Bush’s military record.
It’s really that simple.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:06 pmTour,
March 6th, 2006 at 1:08 pmYou’re right. The Democratic Party has been dismantled. In fact, there will be no opposition in 2006 — you can just stay home. :)
Spudge_boy you read my mind!!!
March 6th, 2006 at 1:09 pmThat is because republicans for the most part don’t have military records idiot.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:10 pm“But there is no denying the disarray the Democratic party has been in post Bush v. Gore.”
Sorry eunuch boychild, but we are discussing the disarray of the GOP post Bush. Squat lower in your Saddam hole little boy.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:11 pmThe swiftboat vets were from 2004. The hatred and name-calling of Bush, Republicans, and conservatives predates 2004 by quite a bit. Perhaps the swiftboaters took their cues from the left?
March 6th, 2006 at 1:13 pmYes, you are right. We wouldn’t have given all of the tax cuts to the rich that has caused a huge deficit. We wouldn’t have spent all of the money on a fake war for oil. We wouldn’t be cutting all of the social progrmas that are hurting the poor. Yes, you have steamrolled this country alright. Good job.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:15 pm#122 – I disagree, but that’s probably why we’re on different sides of the political aisle.
I’ll say this – the left came out swinging at Bush in 2004 lead by people like Michael Moore and based on alot of lies and “cherry picking” of the facts. IT was no secret that the right was going to retaliate.
The attack knife cuts both ways in politis. The only differnce is the right will ususally leave you bleeding. So I say it again – maybe the left should get the hate Bush crap off their platform. If not, get ready for another shock and awe campaign come fall!
March 6th, 2006 at 1:15 pmON every issue – taxes, war, spending, social issues, you name it – the GOP has steamrolled you guys.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:15 pmYep. And gals, too. The Repugs have ruined just about everything. They are entrenched and have our tax money to play with. We’ll never be able to repair the damage they have done, from Medicare to women’s rights, to New Orleans to the mess in Iraq: you name it.
But most Americans keep their heads firmly up their asses and don’t really care about anyone but themselves, so I don’t see much changing.
Seth,
The hatred and name-calling of Bush, Republicans, and conservatives predates 2004 by quite a bit. Perhaps the swiftboaters took their cues from the left?
That’s almost cute. For those of us old enough to remember the 90’s and the endless manufactured attacks against Clinton, it’s pure humor.
Interestingly, even all that wasn’t really enough to get many on the left into full-on attack mode. It wasn’t until Bush and the GOP went around in 2002-2003 claiming anyone who opposed Bush or the war was a traitor that the realization dawned that we’d better start giving as good as we get.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:16 pm118:
Yeah it isn’t like Bush and Company were calling everyone who dissented against war traitors or anything now was it? Or like he tried to make out as if honest disagreement with his views was un-American? Or like Kerry was a coward? Or like the Liberals didn’t have any backbone?
Nooo nothing like that.
(That was all sarcasm in case you missed it)
March 6th, 2006 at 1:16 pmHattie,
March 6th, 2006 at 1:19 pmThe damage will be repaired.
How old are you? You must be very young if you keep tying everything to 2004. It started much much ealier than that, but why would I expect a troll to be informed.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:20 pmThe attack knife cuts both ways in politis. The only differnce is the right will ususally leave you bleeding.
Tour,
March 6th, 2006 at 1:20 pmYou’re right. You guys are absolutely unstoppable. ;)
Why does this “Hate†stuff seem to fascinate Reichtwingnutz so much? What I mean by that is they are always labeling Liberals/Progressives as “Haters†and that is one of their underlying mantra’s of the “leftâ€.
Because a few years ago they schemed up a plan that they would start using the language of the left because they felt that all they had to do was say the same things as the left and that they could claim to be the ones that support liberty and democracy when their actions are in glaring contrast to those two American ideals.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:23 pmI’ve seen far more leftists claim to be called traitors by the Bush administration than I’ve actually seen the label being applied by the administration. Far more often than not it’s just an accusation of convenience. Nobody has been charged, stripped of citizenship, and deported for mere dissent.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:24 pm“So I say it again – maybe the left should get the hate Bush crap off their platform. If not, get ready for another shock and awe campaign come fall!”
Another “new reality†post from a frightened eunuch. Don’t worry eunuch, it will be just like going to sleep as we insert the rhetorical “knife” into the GOP chest this fall. Remember, it is safe in your duct tapped basement, just dig your Saddam hole a little deeper.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:25 pmI’ve seen far more leftists claim to be called traitors by the Bush administration than I’ve actually seen the label being applied by the administration.
It hasn’t just been the administration proper. The administration has implied it repeatedly. The GOP and its spokesmodels have said it outright over and over and over.
Nobody has been charged, stripped of citizenship, and deported for mere dissent.
Kind of tough to tell without that whole “fair trial” thing.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:28 pmThink Progress challenges Powerline to a fact off.
Far be it from me to pile on, but I can’t let this one go.
Thinkprogress.org found a significant portion of their information from a report by the Brookings Institute. I have never had a reason to bash Brookings, but now I do. The report uses excerpts from a table of “data†that looked really familiar to me. I looked at the reference and sure enough it is a table listed as:
British Ministry of Defense Poll
This survey is bogus, and I don’t go around claiming that about many polls, but this one is BAD.
http://telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/23/wirq23.xml
The Source
An Iraq University Research Team
Why is that a problem? Who do you think was running and teaching at the university under Saddam? Saddam supporters vetted by the Bath’ists. Do you think we went in and replaced them all? Of course not. This university was built to be a bastion of Saddam propaganda and will employ the same people for many years to come.
Think I am wrong and still like the poll? Check out what Factcheck.org has to say: http://www.factcheck.org/article366.html
The ‘Secret’ British Poll
March 6th, 2006 at 1:29 pmMoveOn also cites another “poll” in support of its ad. According to the press release the ads are based on a report by the
London
Sunday Telegraph on Oct. 23. The Telegraph reported a “secret” poll commissioned by the British Ministry of Defense and conducted by an Iraqi university research team. The Telegraph said that they had “seen” it – but full results were not published.
The Telegraph said the poll showed 82 per cent of Iraqis “strongly” oppose the presence of coalition forces – a much higher figure than any of the other Iraqi polls published to date. The 82 per cent figure has been cited uncritically by Democrats including Rep. John Murtha of Pennsylvania and party chairman Howard Dean.
But that “poll” is dubious at best. The British government won’t confirm or deny whether such a poll actually exists, or comment on the accuracy of the figures the newspaper reported. The Telegraph gave no information on how large the sample was, or what the statistical margin of error might be, or even exactly what questions were asked. Without such information there’s no basis on which to judge how reliable such a poll might be. The margin of error in the ABC/BBC poll, for example, is plus or minus 2.5 percentage points, and the sample size was 1,711. The exact wording of each question is reported.
….rest at http://www.rayrobison,com
Because it is written in the Bill of Rights.
If you haven’t seen the accusations of treason by the administration, it is only because you are not informed.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:29 pmFar be it from me to pile on, but I can’t let this one go.
That’s quite all right. Actually, you’re not piling on: there has literally been no serious rebuttal to TP’s post.
I’ll check out your info when I get the time.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:32 pmAll you have to do is put yourself in their place…if Iraqi tanks were driving through your home town streets killing people in their own home town ..YOU…and your family would you want them to stay or go?
Do unto others as you would want them to do to you.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:33 pmHinderaker concedes that Cheney did say Iraq possessed nuclear weapons but says it was only “a slip of the tongue.â€
“Oops, I slipped and we’ve landed in this big icky war! My bad!”
Imagine if Clinton had tried that with the Monica Lewinsky affair. On second thought … don’t.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:33 pmI keep reading how the democrats started this “war” first. Could one of you trolls please tell me one lie that was told/written whatever by a democrat against a republican. Because there are plenty of examples of actual lies against democrats.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:41 pmWhy bother with trying to discuss ANYTHING with our new trolls. That is both Seth II & tour de farce.
They make up their own truths to fit their (poor) arguments. They refuse to acknowledge failings of their chosen feurher (Oh sorry seth, I didn’t mean to make you feel bad about your open support of a fascist government head).
Why bother. just another crop that seems to come up in long rows here @ TP.
Gday all.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:41 pmRay,
Your first point goes awry, and I don’t think it’s your fault: it’s Hinderaker’s. He assumed Murtha was promoting immediate withdrawal in his reponse to Murtha’s claim that the Iraqi’s don’t want us there. Or maybe Hinderaker was deliberately erecting a straw man (my opinion).
Either way, the polls you cite (it appears there are actually two) do, indeed, say that most Iraqi’s “don’t want us there”, even if they’re not in favor of immediate withdrawal (which is not what Murtha has proposed, either).
As for the attempt at linking Saddam and al Qaeda, you really shouldn’t have quit while you were ahead. The 9/11 Commission Report specifically found that there were no “collaborative ties” between Saddam and al Qaeda. That pretty much covers Saddam supporting al Qaeda, in any way except private rooting from the sidelines.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:42 pm“Why is that a problem? Who do you think was running and teaching at the university under Saddam? Saddam supporters vetted by the Bath’ists. Do you think we went in and replaced them all? Of course not.”
God how the kult eunuchs squeal when their scripture is questioned.
Ok eunuch, let us use the 62% poll you seem to have no problem with. A large majority of Iraqis want us out.
Now, as for Bath’ists running said university. Where are your facts to back this up? Or are we to be treated to another bait and switch of “Think I am wrong and still like the poll? Check out what Factcheck.org” because, fact check does not discredit the poll, only the accuracy of all polling given the current “good situation” in Iraq. Just squat lower so your voice is muffled eunuch.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:42 pmFollowing politics for many years, I’m amazed that anyone in the center or left is surpised that people like AssRocket lies with impunity. They’ve been doing so in a major way since ‘94. They don’t care about accuracy, they care about truthiness. They gobble up each others polemic as if it were gospel. They more they snarl themselves into incohesion the more rabid they make each other.
They have no values.
“BTW, why doesn’t powerline allow comments to be seen publicly like this one?”
Even the ones that do revoke your posting privelege if you’re critical with their writtings. I’ve been banned at Red State, in spite of being as polite as I could be when correcting their inaccuracy. Free Republic even has a button that anyone can push to report a “liberal” in their midst. They even banned Dan Moldea when he tried to respond to a polemic about his work.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:43 pmer, “should have quit”. Editing too quickly.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:43 pmLitz…
Are you suggesting that the whole Lewinsky affair was a mistake caused by the time he asked her to fetch his aides… “I need secs”?
It’s on a par with the suggestion that “This Be The Verse” by Philip Larkin is really just a typo and that it should read…
Z.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:44 pmAs usual the right-wing nuts come out of the wood work when someone makes a point they don’t like. This moron is no different than Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, or any of the right-wing nuts like Ann Coulter. They say they love America, but it’s clear they hate Americans who disagree with them politically. They like to toss around words like, hysterical, liberal, biased, yet these words except liberal described them completely.
I’m sick and tired of right wing idiots who don’t have a leg to stand on, trying to destort the facts by using labels to describe their opponents. I call them idiots and morons because that’s how I view them. On the other hand there arguments don’t hold water at all. They (conservatives) think that just saying something enought times, makes it true. If I told myself I was the King of England, does anyone think the British would welcome me as their King? Of course they wouldn’t so conservatives need to develop a real strategy and talking points that make sense. Conservatives are void of ideas so they just use attacks to justify their existence.
Take a moment a think about the thinks the conservatives say and defend. They think that putting a Justice on the Supreme Court who agrees with them is the right thing to do. It’s the wrong thing to do and I’ll tell you why. First of all Justice cannot be blind if the Judge has already made up his mind about the case before he reads it or hears arguments. Second, the founding fathers didn’t want a Supreme Court that was partisan, because half of the people get no justice with such a court. Third, if you deny justice of a single group of American, then our system has failed. Their thinking is more in line with that of the old Soviet system of justice, than a democratic one. The Soviet justice system was told to judge cases in a way that favored the communist party and it’s views of justice, not what was fair or just.
Now I ask my fellow Americans, which type of system do you want. Do you want Justices like Scalia, Thomas, Roberts, and Alito who take the view of a political party like the Soviet judges or do you want a fair Justice who will listen before making up his/her mind? No one can deny that Scalia and Thomas don’t already have their minds made up on civil rights and abortion. If I were a Justice and hated the very thought of abortion, I’d still give any who came before the Court and fair hearing, because afer all only the narrow minded are so entrenched in their positions that they are unwilling to change.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:44 pm#145 – good question. IN 1987, Robert Bork was smeared and lynched by the far left extremists that control the Democratic Party to keep him off the Court. They even went trolling through his video rental records – talk about McCarthyism. Four years later, the same forces tried to impugne Clarence Thomas’ character by having just one woman claimed he sexually harrassed her. (Please note that the left later changed the standard on that when Clinton was accused by at least three women of sexual harrassment.)
While Bork and Thomas weren’t running for President, was it fair to smear their character? I don’t think it was.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:46 pm#152 – please explain where Ruth Bader Ginsburg has ever put the constitution above party?
March 6th, 2006 at 1:48 pmTour de Farce,
Funny you should bring up McCarthyism. Joseph McCarthy was a republican who smeared democrats as communists. Yeah, this all started in 2004 by democrats. Moron.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:49 pm“While Bork and Thomas weren’t running for President, was it fair to smear their character? I don’t think it was.”
Oh you squatting eunuch. You are so sensitive on the right. I for one have no problem taking a rhetorical baseball bat and swinging for the GOP head. So, yes some of us progressives can and will smear your face into the pavement. It that now clear, or do I need to deliver some “soup” to your basement?
March 6th, 2006 at 1:52 pmSpudge – it is Democrats who use McCarthy tactics today. Ted Kennedy and Pat Leahy sounded like the thought police at Alito’s hearings. IT was scary. How long til they start gassing conservatives? (Ooops – that requires a power base!)
March 6th, 2006 at 1:52 pmOK, now we have a debate.
Bork – he contributed to his own downfall. He had already made up his mind on a number of important issues and made them well known. Heck, even Roberts and Alito were smart enough to lie when asked about their views on abortion.
Thomas – it does not matter if one or a hundred women accuse you of sexual harrassment, it should be addressed. Anita Hill did not come looking for a fight, she was asked to testify. As for Clinton, God knows I would not want him for a husband, but as a president he did much more for this country than Bush could ever hope to do. In addition, it has come out that both Flowers and Jones were well funded by individuals with extreme right leanings to try to deconstruct Clinton. I have never heard of a third woman.
Now lets talk about the tens of millions spent by the republicans trying to link Clinto to something, anything to get rid of him. Also, how about trying to blame Hillary for Vince Fosters suicide. Now theres a stretch!!
March 6th, 2006 at 1:53 pm#156 – I’ll give you some soup. Eat sand much?
March 6th, 2006 at 1:53 pm“blame Hillary for Vince Fosters suicide. Now theres a stretch!! ”
of course if Harriet Miers showed up dead in a field, Michael Moore and the left would never imply that Bush did it. Never…
March 6th, 2006 at 1:54 pmAh ha ha ah ah aha h .
As well they should have been. It was their job to get inside Alito’s head and find out what he is about. That is what the fvcking Senate Judiciary Committee does. Did you drop out of school early?
I am not going to address you gassing comment as we are not the fascists. Fascist.
March 6th, 2006 at 1:55 pmTed Kennedy and Pat Leahy sounded like the thought police at Alito’s hearings.
Whoa, buddy. There’s a big difference between patrolling the political opinions and speech of private citizens, and trying to get the full picture of the ideology of a person who wants to sit on the highest court in the land, making decisions that profoundly affect us all.
Or don’t you believe that an employer has the right to know whether a potential employee is qualified and will do the job they hire him to do?
March 6th, 2006 at 1:56 pm#160 – that is not a way to debate. Why would we blame Bush for Meirs death? That does not even make sense. You see democrats try to debate with logic. Please try!
March 6th, 2006 at 1:56 pmIf come Nov, Democrats regain power, then it will be push. But there is no denying the disarray the Democratic party has been in post Bush v. Gore. ON every issue – taxes, war, spending, social issues, you name it – the GOP has steamrolled you guys.
Comment by Tour De Farce — March 6, 2006 @ 1:05 pm
Um, if you haven’t noticed, the polls you decry were taken by the same media that gave Bush god-like approval after 9/11. His bungling of every issue has caused them to re-ascess their previous support – especially after Cheney and Libby went after them for Plame.
Royalist, kneejerk genuflection is really unbecoming for such a rock-ribbed conservative as yourself. Get off the floor.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:00 pm“I’ll give you some soup. Eat sand much?”
Actually eunuch, I did in the first gulf action. Too bad so many on the right miss the opportunity to eat sand through “I just had a baby” deferments. Squat lower eunuch.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:01 pmFor the record: http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=18985
The Right still believes the darndest things.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:03 pmOh and number 6 is just spooky. Tom Tomorrow seems almost delphaic there.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:05 pm#10 – Shannon touts:
“Top 4 Conservative Blogs – Via Blogads.com
Powerline – 590,127
RedState – 288,135
HughHewitt – 263.388
Wizbang – 188,841
Top 4 Liberal Blogs – Via Blogads.com
DailyKos – 4,053,290
Democratic Underground – 1,434,904
Crooks and Liars – 1,282,182
Talking Points Memo – 990,132″
Comment by Shannon
*****Dear Progs – The answer is quite simple – it’s a concept foreign to a number of the members of the “Habitually Victims” – it’s called – EMPLOYMENT…
But the most LAUGHABLE responses here at “We HATE GWB / Think Pessimism” is the notation of the “hateful, hate filled” “reich”wing in the most filthy, vulgar “language” imaginable. But then, I remember what a wise man once said, “People who are TOO ignorant to use proper English often resort to vulgarities.”
March 6th, 2006 at 2:06 pmOn topic….sorry trolls, you aren’t ANY fun to play with,
I try to read Hindrocket’s stuff once in a while. I’m ususally able to get through it some but eventually go to a different bookmarked page. For a Lawyer, he presents arguments very poorly. For a Dartmouth undergrad/Harvard Law student to post what he does, it makes me wonder why I didn’t apply to Harvard fro grad school. If they take this sloven writing for admissions standards, I’d have been a prince in their eyes.
And you can’t call anything that doesn’t allow reader discussion a blog. It is more a personal soapbox in that setting.
Earlier today/yesterday, someone quoted someone saying,” Of course you are allowed to make up your own opinions on matters, but you aren’t allowed to make up your own facts”. Very appropriate for the reichtwingnutz whining here today. Oh bois…would you like some cheese to go with that whine? How bout something from France?
March 6th, 2006 at 2:07 pmRay,
Your first point goes awry, and I don’t think it’s your fault: it’s Hinderaker’s. He assumed Murtha was promoting immediate withdrawal in his reponse to Murtha’s claim that the Iraqi’s don’t want us there. Or maybe Hinderaker was deliberately erecting a straw man (my opinion).
Either way, the polls you cite (it appears there are actually two) do, indeed, say that most Iraqi’s “don’t want us thereâ€, even if they’re not in favor of immediate withdrawal (which is not what Murtha has proposed, either).
As for the attempt at linking Saddam and al Qaeda, you really shouldn’t have quit while you were ahead. The 9/11 Commission Report specifically found that there were no “collaborative ties†between Saddam and al Qaeda. That pretty much covers Saddam supporting al Qaeda, in any way except private rooting from the sidelines.
Comment by Misc — March 6, 2006 @ 1:42 pm
Did you even read it? The only poll I cited was the one you referenced from the Brookings Institute report and factcheck.org flat out says it is bogus. Therefore points 3 and 4 are wrong.
Point 5 quotes the 9/11 commission which is not an intelligence estimate for Saddam’s support to al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. It is limited in scope to the question, was Saddam behind 9/11? The Bush Administration said that Saddam supported terrorists organizations including al-Qaeda. That is easily verifiable to anybody able to read. You only wish it away without addressing the facts.
If you want to trade polls try a legitimate poll from ABC:
“Specifically, 26 percent of Iraqis say U.S. and other coalition forces should “leave now” and another 19 percent say they should go after the government chosen in this week’s election takes office; that adds to 45 percent. Roughly the other half says coalition forces should remain until security is restored (31 percent), until Iraqi security forces can operate independently (16 percent), or longer (5 percent). ”
That is only 26% (amazingly proportionate to the Arab Sunnis who supported Saddam) who want us out before the new Iraq government is formed.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:08 pmHinderaker and the partisans who defend him are just victims of their partisan brains – poor things. Here’s an exercept from the recent study conducted by Emory University which proved ‘partisan brains don’t think’:
March 6th, 2006 at 2:10 pm
fact check does not discredit the poll, only the accuracy of all polling given the current “good situation†in Iraq. Just squat lower so your voice is muffled eunuch.
Comment by Citizen80203 — March 6, 2006 @ 1:42 pm
from the factcheck.org article
“But that “poll” is dubious at best.” what is wrong with you people?
March 6th, 2006 at 2:11 pmMighty Eunuch
You are sooo sensitive girl. Go join Coulter’s group therapy seething session on sensitivity training. I hope I didn’t make you cry?
March 6th, 2006 at 2:12 pmAs I keep on saying on polls in Iraq:
You either have a student who could be linked to terrorism or a reporter with a soldier right behind him asking the poll questions. At this point, the polls are about as reliable as a three dollar bill.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:13 pmMighty Eunuch
You are sooo sensitive girl. Go join Coulter’s group therapy seething session on sensitivity training. I hope I didn’t make you cry?
Comment by Citizen80203 — March 6, 2006 @ 2:12 pm
Okay, so now you admit you were wrong, I win, you lose, moving on
March 6th, 2006 at 2:15 pm“But then, I remember what a wise man once said, “People who are TOO ignorant to use proper English often resort to vulgarities.†Comment by mighty aphrodite AKA Jeffrey Shawn AKA RiteWinger”
You only ‘recently’ remembering this explains all of your posts pumkin. Now who’s a hateful ‘commie’ today? Because we know that’s a ‘vulgar’ term for you now isn’t it sweetie?
March 6th, 2006 at 2:15 pm#158 – Let the revisionism begin!!!!
“Thomas – it does not matter if one or a hundred women accuse you of sexual harrassment, it should be addressed.”
******You HYPOCRITE (!) – “you’re not entitled to your own set of facts”.
“Anita Hill did not come looking for a fight, she was asked to testify.” – **** by a member of the notoriously “non-partisan” womanizer, Ted Kennedy’s staff.
“As for Clinton, God knows I would not want him for a husband, but as a president he did much more for this country than Bush could ever hope to do.” – Who would want that lying skunk for a husband? Oh…except for the lib gals who said they’d love to don the Presidential knee-pads for “Astro turf” Bill. His triangulation formula (”borrowing and implementing” Repub ideas DID work well – inspite of the middle class tax lie.
“In addition, it has come out that both Flowers and Jones were well funded by individuals with extreme right leanings to try to deconstruct Clinton. I have never heard of a third woman.”
March 6th, 2006 at 2:15 pm****Where were YOU?? One of the myriad of women who had a serious complaint about Bill’s predatory sexual ways was Juanita Broderick.
Yeah that’s it mighty aphrodite. We are all unemployed. We don’t own homes, can’t get a loan and live on the streets. We go down to the soup kitchen and use their computers to post to blogs. Get real.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:18 pmWow, a conservative blog fan taking Democrats to task for insensitive language?
March 6th, 2006 at 2:18 pm“Hitler”y anyone?
Grow up. All your data shows is that Democrat blogs are better and more popular than conservative ones.
Spudge_boy
Its a good thing we have magical internet posting powers isn’t it? What with our being unemployed and therefore short of cash and all.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:21 pmRay,
I read your post in its entirety. I suggest you look again at your own links. Factcheck addresses two polls: one by ABC/Time/BBC and the other a “secret” one by the British Ministry of Defence. Both found that, as Murtha claimed, most Iraqis don’t want us there. Any claims regarding whether we should leave now are irrelevant; that’s not what Murtha was discussing in his point.
It’s also notable that the Factcheck.org article, as with the polls cited, are from late December — before the current dramatic increase in sectarian violence in the country.
As for the 9/11 Report, your claims are plainly counterfactual. The report not only dealt with the 9/11 attacks, but with the general question of collaborative ties between Iraq and al Qaeda. They found:
Similar meetings between Iraqi officials and Bin Ladin or his aides may have occurred in 1999 during a period of some reported strains with the Taliban. According to the reporting, Iraqi officials offered Bin Ladin a safe haven in Iraq. Bin Ladin declined, apparently judging that his circumstances in Afghanistan
remained more favorable than the Iraqi alternative. The reports describe friendly contacts and indicate some common themes in both sides’ hatred of the United States. But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. — The 9/11 Commission Report, p. 66
And no matter what sort of wishful thinking you wish to engage in, that’s pretty definitive. If your only defense is “they didn’t have the right information”, then you need to be a little more specific, or admit you’ve got nothing.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:23 pm““But that “poll†is dubious at best.†what is wrong with you people?”
Actually, they say most of the polling data in Iraq is suspect right now.
Why is that? Hmmm, maybe the “media civil war”? But no, we are informed that things are going well in Iraq, so it must be “Bath’ists” infiltrating the media.
Problem is eunuch, just like your post of the other day on information gleemed from papers captured from “Al Qaeda Saddam Loyalists”, you are a compulsive lying kult member. So what is wrong with us people, we know your kult scripture eunuch. I have been told the grape flavor tastes the best, so drink up and take a long nap.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:25 pmAnd my WoW account is paid for by lawn gnomes. My big screen TV is just a picture I drew of one. My two cars are really soap boxes that are powered like the Flinstones and when I say boss, I really mean the hobo sitting next to me on the sidewalk.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:25 pmI will never fail to shake my head in utter amazment when a republican asks me what is wrong.
—-If you are not outraged you have not been paying attention!
March 6th, 2006 at 2:26 pmDear Progs – The answer is quite simple – it’s a concept foreign to a number of the members of the “Habitually Victims†– it’s called – EMPLOYMENT…
Considering the fact that most people who work for a living actually have access to the Internet at some point in the day, this is perhaps the lamest comment I’ve seen on this thread.
At one time, you might have had a point with talk radio and people in cars (the Coulter Scenario). Now, all you have is whining excuses for the fact that progressive blogs are kicking your asses.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:26 pmJohn and Judd and Dick and Jack…
Bush afficionado John Hinderaker of Powerline (who never met a Bush policy he didn’t love) is fighting a two-front war……
March 6th, 2006 at 2:26 pmmight aphrodite AKA Jeffrey Shawn AKA Ritewinger,
Sweetie, you really need to get new material. This stuff about Kennedy and Clinton was written years ago by partisans to attack them during presidential runs. It’s like the 10th time you posted the same BORING ZZzzzzzz post in the last couple of weeks. Are you that uncreative, and detached from reality pumpkin? These kind progressives have continually picked apart these silly ‘I hate Clinton’ and ‘I hate Kennedy’ rantings, but you keep posting them on every thread which exposes some lie, some failure, some corruption among your partisan friends.
So sweetie, are you that incapable and unskilled that you can’t defend the actions of this administrations and its partisans, and you have to bring up old policies, old presidents, and politicians that hold little power? If you are, then you have my pity sweetie. But I think you’re just not very good at this partisan support thing, and merely resort to the same old vaudeville ’schtick’ because it’s the only one you’ve memorized.
Prove me wrong pumpkin, just try to defend the debunked lies of Hinderaker, or the UAE boycotting port company, or the refusal to prioritize Bin Laden, or the out of control budget, any number of other failures of leadership we currently must deal with.
Come on pumpkin, give it a try, and if you can’t, I forgive you for being weak. It’s OK, I understand sweetie, that only the strong are on the frontlines, someone has to hold up the rear cowering.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:28 pmIs it just me, or is it remarkable that about three different trolls just popped in here at the same time?
Could it be that we really just have one or two trolls who try to make themselves look more numerous by posting under different names?
Nah, that would be dishonest.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:28 pmWell put Spudge Boy.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:29 pmMisc,
They all show up at the same time, because that is when they punch in the time clock.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:30 pmMA – What happend? I thought you were taking the high road and not resorting to vulgarities? I guess I hit a little to close to home!
March 6th, 2006 at 2:30 pmMisc
There are about three who pop up here, just hammer their little eunuch heads.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:30 pmSpudge,
March 6th, 2006 at 2:31 pmAh. I thought that it was when they got done with the chores their moms had them do in lieu of paying rent.
Spudge – it is Democrats who use McCarthy tactics today. Ted Kennedy and Pat Leahy sounded like the thought police at Alito’s hearings. IT was scary. How long til they start gassing conservatives? (Ooops – that requires a power base!)
Comment by Tour De Farce
Awwwwweeeee the POOR POOR conservatives… the very people that gave the nazis their ideas about supreme races and cleaning humanity of the undesirables are now thinking they are the oppresed… poor poor conservatives… the ones that say they believe in Jesus while they condone out right murder… but dont question their evil because then they are the ones that are oppressed… poor poor facists ..I feel so sorry for you.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:33 pmMisc,
There isn’t any reason to raise the minimum wage, because it doesn’t cost that much to live in a basement.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:33 pmNo Spudge and Misc – they get paid by coming here and trying to throw us off of our game. I am proud of all of you for always holding your own against “their kind”
March 6th, 2006 at 2:33 pmGerald – you are a fascist. You have nothing but hate and rage for ideological opponents. That said, I am not complaining – with GOP govt, I have you to thank =)
March 6th, 2006 at 2:36 pm#197 – not for long Farce, not for long!
March 6th, 2006 at 2:38 pmJules,
The trick to beating trolls:
1) Ignore them
March 6th, 2006 at 2:39 pm2) If you don’t want to ignore them (you’re feeling feisty, or you want to make an example), go on the attack immediately
3) Never, ever be afraid to follow their links and check their facts. About 85% of the time, they’ve either misquoted or misinterpreted their sources, or outright lied about them. And if you’re wrong and they’re right, admit it. Your cred among readers will go up hugely, since this is something trolls basically never do.
4) Pick a simple point, and hammer it over and over. Don’t get lost in a sea of multiple responses. Keep things simple, grab something important, and hammer it home. It helps if that something important is a general principle.
5) The real point to going after trolls is not to change their minds. The real goal is to show readers that the trolls are cowards who have nothing but blather going for them. To that end, if you can use humor or otherwise point out their foolishness, by all means, do so!
“Gerald – you are a fascist. You have nothing but hate and rage for ideological opponents.”
Is it just me noticing, or do you all notice the high pitched eunuch squeals call squirrels?
March 6th, 2006 at 2:39 pmAre we back to this tired old horse. I thought we’d already beaten the shit outta this one. Once again, righties are fascists and lefties are communists. Get your shit straight.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:41 pmI see trolls. How many times have they thrown out the “hate” word today ? Tomorrow will be “traitor” day, my guess. Anyone want to take a stab at what the Troll Word of the Day will be for tomorrow ?
March 6th, 2006 at 2:42 pm200 comments to discuss a non-response from Assrocket. I think he’s been given enough disk space on the TP servers :)
March 6th, 2006 at 2:42 pm#153- Why wasn’t Harriett Miers elevated to the Supreme Court ? She was GWB’s first choice, after all. And the talk of how John Kerry “used” his service in the military to justify his ability to be a president, I guess it all depends on who is doing the “using” eh ? “Duke” Cunningham’s attorney, “used” “Duke’s” service in Vietnam to plead for a shorter sentence, because of his service to the country. But are you saying that this was appropriate for him to do ? And the president could clear everything up, if he would just answer the questions about hie “service”. But he will not. Why not ? If he has nothing to hide, it should be a simple task, and would shut us “lefties” up, but good ! So…..
March 6th, 2006 at 2:44 pmMisc – I know you are right, but I cannot go to their sites, listen to them on the radio or watch them on television. I do not mind fact checking, I have done that all of my career, but my blood boils when I read their lies. You should have seen me during the SOTU. I was screaming at my television.
I guess it’s my red hair or the fact that I am genetically prone to regect bulls**t.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:48 pm#204- *his
March 6th, 2006 at 2:49 pm181 TP- “The reports describe friendly contacts and indicate some common themes in both sides’ hatred of the United States. But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. — The 9/11 Commission Report, p. 66″
That was then, this came out since then:
The Combating Terrorism Center at West Point just released a study on al-Qaeda. Part of the study included al-Qaeda documents captured in Afghanistan. The study focus is on al-Qaeda, and had nothing to say about any connection between Saddam and al-Qaeda.
But such evidence is there none the less, buried in the details.
One document talks about Saddam:
Doc ID: AFGP-2002-601693
Date: Unknown
Author: Abu Mus’ab
Length: 2 pages
Title: None (Status of Jihad)
Full Text: English Arabic
The author is relating a meeting between himself and Zarqawi. Now look at the Harmony number AFGP-2002-601693. That means this document was written, captured, and processed into the Harmony database before the invasion of Iraq in 2003.
Now look at these passages:
Page 4
“I read your criticism of the doctor “[undoubtedly this is al-Zawahri – RR]
We can conclude from this that these men are at a high level for one of them to be openly writing letters critical of al-Zawahri. It continues skipping a few lines for brevity:
“…that’s what he and along with Abu Hammam and others have done. Some of them went to Saddam; others went to Iran and so on. May Allah make us steadfast to his religion and I praise Him for making me say everything had happen.”
Consider carefully that these are captured al-Qaeda document from Afghanistan from what would seem to be a high level source. And this al-Qaeda operative is indicating that fighters, Mujahedeen were sent to Iraq before the Iraq war.
On page 2:
“After my release I found that people came from the Sudan and everywhere, and began fighting along side the Taliban movement which for Pakistan was a substitute for Hikmatyar. Everyone, even the children in the streets knew that they were created and controlled by Pakistan. Their leader Fadhlurahman is a friend of Banazeer, Saddam and Qaddafi. They comprise of the veteran sheiks…”
So the author tells us here that in 2002, before the invasion of Iraq that people came to the aid of the Taliban (actually they were probably Mujahedeen outside of Afghanistan) and brags that the leader was a friend of the infidel Saddam and that they were most pious.
and from Iraq:
Now look at document 28.
This document is a continuation of document 27 and in general talks about overturning the Egyptian government and “providing technical support†presumably to the EIJ in efforts against the Egyptian government and American non-military interests.
So let ’s put this in context. Here’s what the documents tell us:
On February 26th, 1993 the first world trade center was attacked by al-Qaeda and the EIJ (really two organizations that cooperated in 1993 and eventually merged).
A month later an official from EIJ was meeting with Saddam in Baghdad.
We have a document showing Saddam authorizing the IIS to “provide technical support†to the EIJ, and by extension, al-Qaeda.
there you have it. documents from afghanistan prove that some elements of al-Qaeda were “sent to saddam”
the other document captured in Iraq shows the IIS giving “technical assistance” to the Egyption Islamic Jihad (al-Zawahri’s group).
What is there about these documents that do not demonstrate an operational relationship? Murtha was wrong.
You said “Factcheck addresses two polls: one by ABC/Time/BBC and the other a “secret†one by the British Ministry of Defence. Both found that, as Murtha claimed, most Iraqis don’t want us there.”
I just demonstrated that the “secret” poll was debunked by factcheck.org yet you still use it.
March 6th, 2006 at 2:57 pmAs to the ABC poll, you demonstrate that you can not make a logical distinction or are purposely trying to blur the facts “Both found that, as Murtha claimed, most Iraqis don’t want us there.” You do not define what “don’t want us there means- today, next week, a year from now, event driven?
The ABC poll says 26% want us out now, thus to say most Iraqis dont want us there is inaccurate.
Hinderaker proves the point. He has no honest argument, so he resorts to insults, like a fourth grader on the school playground.
March 6th, 2006 at 3:00 pmHe cannot defend his lies, his distortions and misrepresentations.
I usually try not to generalize, but these guys are all do damned alike — they are ignorant, ill-informed, spoiled-brat children. They have had their way for a long time now and they don’t feel the need for honesty.
Gerald – you are a fascist. You have nothing but hate and rage for ideological opponents. That said, I am not complaining – with GOP govt, I have you to thank =)
Comment by Tour De Farce
I went to a funeral today for a soldeir that was killed in this illegal war. I held a flag and said I was sorry to him in my mind for his sacrifice caused by the lies of Bush. There is no amount of hate I could have that will out do your support for the NeoCons.
And if those protestors had shown up I bet there would have been some hate going on from both the republicans and the democrats that were there.
March 6th, 2006 at 3:00 pm182 Comment by Citizen80203 — March 6, 2006 @ 2:25 pm
retard, stop talking to me, your frothing at the mouth is making your keys sticky and you have become incoherent
March 6th, 2006 at 3:03 pmThe damage will be repaired.
Comment by Misc
Misc, I just don’t see how. So many dead and disfigured, physically and mentally. The national debt and budget deficit so large that it will take decades to bring back into line. In the mean time, the effect will be to curtail many projects and programs that actually are a miniscule part of the budget but could yield large results. Heck, look at the space program–starved for the money to attempt to carry out Bush’s own “back to the Moon and on to Mars,” so it kills many of it’s science programs. Yet the money that goes to Iraq in one month (about $6 billion) could bring funding back to the levels needed.
Climate change damage may NEVER be repairable, the further down this path we go. Species may go extinct and NEVER be recoverable. People who died in New Orleans are never coming back. If the feds don’t get serious about the New Orleans levees soon, the next hurricane season may finish off any hope (not that there is much anyway) of rebuilding that city. Our military forces and equipment are dwindling and wearing out–another area that will require decades of rebuilding.
Respect for America, the credibility of America’s word around the world and admiration of America’s vision may also never be repaired. If China ascends to become the next superpower or hyperpower, America may decline (like Spain, Britain, France) to never again retain that title.
March 6th, 2006 at 3:04 pmGerald – you are a fascist. You have nothing but hate and rage for ideological opponents. That said, I am not complaining – with GOP govt, I have you to thank =)
Comment by Tour De Farce
I grew up in right wing churches… err should I say cults… I know what you are. You may be able to lie to people that have never been in your world… but I got to know your world very well indeed. You are not Americans. You are traitors and outright cultist crazies… It took me years at a library to deprogram myself and even now I sometimes find myself being intolerant because of my upbringing… if I have any facism in me it came from church.
March 6th, 2006 at 3:08 pmRay Robison on 207 can you provide a link. I would like to read it in its entirety. thanks.
March 6th, 2006 at 3:13 pmNot wanting to be the “Grammar Nazi” or anything…
But…
Retard should be capitalised.
The original comment was perfectly coherent. I would be interested in knowing how you know whether someone else’s keyboard is “sticky”.
Saliva is not generally “sticky” so I assume that there is something in your saliva that causes it to be sticky. You might want to go and see your doctor about that if it’s a normal condition for you. You may just be dehydrated, or it might be something much more worrisome.
Given that you can’t understand straight forward postings, your saliva is “sticky”, I would be very worried about the state of your health if I were you.
Z.
March 6th, 2006 at 3:18 pmHis triangulation formula (â€borrowing and implementing†Repub ideas DID work well
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Now you are saying Clinton did some good things but all those were ideas stolen from Republicans??? weird … Do you have a job where you must judge what is true/false? I know I do as a computer programmer ..that way of thinking is weird …just weird…
March 6th, 2006 at 3:19 pmI got a reply from Ian Schwartz and I sent it to you. Here’s a snippet from his reply and my response:
On Hinderaker’s piece, all you did was take the ‘extreme’ of each statistic and state it as fact.
Sounds familiar:
“We know for a fact there are weapons there.” – Ari Fleischer, Jan. 9, 2003 LINK
March 6th, 2006 at 3:26 pmUsually they end up saying it is their judgment against ours, ignoring the fact that their judgment will end up costing us $1.5-$2 trillion dollars, plus most of our allies in the world.
This isn’t Milton’s prologue in heaven. We aren’t debating the matter in the aether of PNAC, or the AIE. This war has been deeply injurious to America’s vital interests.
March 6th, 2006 at 3:27 pmWhy does this “Hate†stuff seem to fascinate Reichtwingnutz so much? What I mean by that is they are always labeling Liberals/Progressives as “Haters†and that is one of their underlying mantra’s of the “leftâ€.
Because THEY are the haters. The Poorman has a collection of their think over the last 10 years that proves it. Someone mentioned that when wingnuts accuse us of doing something, you can be damn sure that’s exactly what they are doing.
March 6th, 2006 at 3:38 pmGerald
The eunuch Ray’s arguments of “Al Qaeda Saddam Loyalists” is totally bunk kult scripture. He is talking about Al Qaeda operatives operating in the Kurdish north of Iraq prior to the war. This is indeed true, but what the eunuch fails to mention is that the north was NOT UNDER SADDAMS CONTROL! There was absolutely no TROOPS OR BATHISTS in the north. In fact, the north was under nominal control of “coalition forces” prior to our invasion. Ray is a kultist, therefore a kult liar using a partial truth to mask his lies.
March 6th, 2006 at 3:38 pmUm, “thinking” not think. (blushes)
March 6th, 2006 at 3:44 pmGerald,
You are not taking the mindset of people like Mighty Aphrodite into account…
The Republicans are great… Any Republican idea is a good idea.
The Democrats suck… Any Democrat idea is a bad idea.
If a Democrat has any success it is because they stole the idea from a Republican… If a republican has a failure it is a Democratic influence…
Z.
March 6th, 2006 at 3:56 pm219)
Ya I knew that…but the info he posted said “to Saddam” ..and then a little later says “the infidel Saddam” …so wtf does that mean? Saddam is an infidel but they are meeting with him to get some kind of “technical support”? When they said “go to Saddam” did they mean the north of Iraq?
I know that the nonInfidels in the UAE royal family DID sit around and drink tea with Osama laughing about his successdul misadventures against America… and that Saddam never did…. I understand that the Saudis have went to wedding parties with Osama right after he bombed the U.S.S Cole and Saddam never did… but still I just dont want no rightwinger pulling out an ACTUAL FACT …that I dont fully understand …I mean they almost NEVER provide facts…and so I dont want to be blind sided by them doing so without being prepared…
March 6th, 2006 at 3:58 pmGerald
I know from your previous postings you knew this. I just wanted to post the facts so that “Ray the eunuch” will crawl deeper into his basement Saddam protection hole.
March 6th, 2006 at 4:01 pm#219 …He is talking about Al Qaeda operatives operating in the Kurdish north of Iraq prior to the war. This is indeed true, but what the eunuch fails to mention is that the north was NOT UNDER SADDAMS CONTROL! There was absolutely no TROOPS OR BATHISTS in the north. In fact, the north was under nominal control of “coalition forces†prior to our invasion.
Exactly right. It has been theorized that Bush & Co. refrained from bombing or otherwise taking out Ansar al-Islam (about 300 armed men) because they wanted to keep a nominal terrorist organization around that they could point to as a reason for the war. The U.S. flew military missions over northen and southern Iraq for years, bombing various targets on a fairly regular basis. After 9/11/2001, there would be little stopping American forces from smashing little Ansar al-Islam, which would have helped out our Kurdish friends there.
Full name is Ansar al-Islam fi Kurdistan (Supporters of Islam in Kurdistan), it fights against the other Kurdish factions (i.e. the PUK), and is apparently supported by Iran. After American and Kurdish peshmerga forces smashed the Ansar al-Islam base, the survivors fled to Iran. This is about a small scale civil war amongst Kurdish factions, not a globe-spanning terrorist organization bent on destroying the U.S. Now, after the invasion, Zarqawi has joined up with al-Qaeda, renamed the group al-Qaeda in Iraq, and become a household name.
March 6th, 2006 at 4:05 pmFeh.
There is no honor in winning a battle of wits with an unarmed man. Or every several at once.
“Bush hatred” and “librul” have been their answers to everything for so long that they’ve completely atrophied mentally.
Filth.
March 6th, 2006 at 4:13 pm.
Excellent post CZ-1, the actual name Ansar al-Islam fi Kurdistan escaped me at the time. As for the keeping safe of Ansar al-Islam, I believe it to be true but not really provable. Funny (funny jesh, not ha ha) how we construct on facts to build an argument, but eunuchs build an argument then pluck facts to build lies.
March 6th, 2006 at 4:14 pm…but eunuchs build an argument then pluck facts to build lies.
Comment by Citizen80203
And thus the phrase, “Intelligence and facts are being fixed around the policy.” Either they lie or they cherry-pick “facts” that are old or have been discredited or are actually subjective. Then they use institutions and mechanisms, such as the United Nations, that are supposed to accomplish the opposite (diplomatic means for peace) to actually justify their lies and actions (war).
March 6th, 2006 at 4:34 pmjust popping in – after taking a break at around #100ish – with this observation:
listening to mike malloy – again subbing for randi rhodes of AirAmericaRadio today – OK, now that guy totally admits to HATE…no bones about it! he is usually on at late night so i don’t hear him much, but he keeps bringing up how he is restraining himself because it’s a day show! yep – he is pissed, and hates the stupid, lying, thieving, traitorous, corrupt, self-serving, sanctimonious, hypocritical – etc. – neoconservative republicans who have been destroying the country…so, yea – there IS some hate out there…imagine that…
me, i’m just angry…no hate…lots of sadness and worry – i have kids who want kids…really hope we can fix this mess…
March 6th, 2006 at 5:12 pm#221 – Zwacker brilliantly (for a change – ha!) notes
“The Republicans are great… Any Republican idea is a good idea.
The Democrats suck… Any Democrat idea is a bad idea.
If a Democrat has any success it is because they stole the idea from a Republican…”
****** But Zwacker, realizing your penchant for sarcasm, just interchange Dems and Repubs and you will arrive at the frothy spittle spewed by your prog friends. Be honest – you never expect to hear a good word about Repubs; they’re greedy, evil, repressed, stupid (if they’re religious), demonically brilliant (if they’re smart enought to launch every suspected li copnspiracy) – my least favourite Progs are: habitual victims, the easily (and often) offended, chronically lazy, and the terminally envious.
Positions of Dems I agree with:
March 6th, 2006 at 5:45 pmClinton: Bosnia, Welfare reform
Carter: Carrying his own luggage – “everyman” ought to carry his own EMPTY suitcases, wearing a sweater – though not as ugly as the “Carter cardigan”
LBJ: signing the voting rights act
Kennedy: across the board tax cut, Bay of Pigs, standing up to that thug Kruschev – this is one Dem would was not soft on Communism, putting Bobby on the corruption trail of the Teamster thugs.
katy,
I used to dislike Bush. Until hurricane Katrina happened. Bush could have cut through the red tap enad been a hero to the victims of Katrina. Instead he had cake with McCain and played guitar in San Diego. I now hate George W. Bush.
I can’t speak for anybody else, but to me, the events of Katrina were just a horrifying as 9/11.
March 6th, 2006 at 5:48 pmMighty Aphrodite,
Actually, most Democrats that I know are willing to admit that some Republicans sometimes have good ideas…
Heck some of them even seem to have good ideas frequently…
I’ve yet to see most of those ideas implemented, but in this case you appear to be wrong.
Z.
March 6th, 2006 at 5:54 pmSpudgeMan – A question for you – In light of the Katrina disaster and it’s profound effect on you, do you HATE Mayor Chocolate and Gov. Blanco as much as GWB??
March 6th, 2006 at 5:54 pm“SpudgeMan – A question for you – In light of the Katrina disaster and it’s profound effect on you, do you HATE Mayor Chocolate and Gov. Blanco as much as GWB??”
Typical kultist posting, wrap King Eunuch’s failures in a brite pink bow, so no one will notice.
March 6th, 2006 at 5:58 pmThe eunuch Ray’s arguments of “Al Qaeda Saddam Loyalists†is totally bunk kult scripture. He is talking about Al Qaeda operatives operating in the Kurdish north of Iraq prior to the war. This is indeed true, but what the eunuch fails to mention is that the north was NOT UNDER SADDAMS CONTROL! There was absolutely no TROOPS OR BATHISTS in the north. In fact, the north was under nominal control of “coalition forces†prior to our invasion. Ray is a kultist, therefore a kult liar using a partial truth to mask his lies.
Why does this still even need to be brought up?
If all that’s necessary to proclaim “ties” between A-Q and some nation is this pap — then there are probably half a dozen countries that should have been invaded before Iraq (”allies” like Pakistan among them – hell there are STILL AQ run villages in remote regions of Pakistan).
Hell — if Ansar or Zawahiri were truly the “problem” — I can guaran-damn-tee that if the US had secretly given Saddam permission through back door channels to send a force north to slaughter the lot of them, he would have been only too happy to do so.
Why do conservatives run from the neocon plan for Iraq? It’s a whole lot of massive hubris that we could so easily transform a region using Iraq as the greenhouse, but at least it’s an intellectually honest POV that can be debated.
This crap… sheesh… how do you argue with people so far detached from reality?
March 6th, 2006 at 6:10 pmAssRocket is just another worm-infested-small-brained Reichwingnut clown (Gacy was a Republican, too).
March 6th, 2006 at 6:25 pmA Republican accusing liberals of hating the President? That is simply too funny to respond to. Damn, you’d think these people were born yesterday, rather than just being revisionists with terrible memories of witch hunts, money losing land deals, and special prosecutors past.
Oh, I’m sorry, that was hateful of me.
March 6th, 2006 at 6:34 pm#231 – Zwzck – Your reasonable Demfriends – they don’t post here but they would be a refreshing change.
March 6th, 2006 at 6:53 pm#233 – Comrade80203 – Your “response” is typical – deflect, reject and project…easy formula for simple “arguments” – which cannot be answered.
#235 – realitybit – Gacy was VERY proud of a picture taken with former First Lady, Rosalynn Carter – no self respecting Repub would be photographed with that – and be proud…..
#229 I honestly wouldn’t mind Republicans running things if they hadn’t cocked it up so incredibly badly.
Tell me, which of Bush’s policies would you not be willing to trade for a national debt of $4 trillion right now (instead of $8.2 trillion)? That would give us a lot of leeway if we needed to borrow in case of emergency.
March 6th, 2006 at 6:59 pm#237- Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein.
March 6th, 2006 at 7:16 pmSchwede – #202
Gerald – #212
I guess today is traitor day, except that a liberal is the first to throw down. Only ten posts and thirty minutes later! Anybody offended by Gerald? Anybody?
March 6th, 2006 at 7:21 pm#237 A self-respecting Republican would, however, be photographed holding hands and kissing the King of Saudi Arabia.
But not Carter? Whose side are you on anyway? The American Liberal or the Islamic Fascist?
March 6th, 2006 at 7:23 pm#240 At this point, nothing offends me anymore. Hate talk and traitor talk is not constructive, especially when the ruling party has rendered the constitution inoperative.
You can point to examples here, but I can point to best selling books that conservatives eat up like candy, which purport to prove that liberals are traitors deserving of hate and worse.
Clean your house, conservatives, before you complain.
March 6th, 2006 at 7:33 pm#239 -Cyrs – Was John Wayne Gacy photographed with Rosalynn while he was committing serial murders?? The time line would suggest so.
Was Rumsfeld photographed with Saddam while Iraq was fighting our most vile terrorist enemy, Iran? You remember the (or studied about) the hostages for 444 days, don’t you?
Conclusion – as usual, Cyra, can’t stretch far enough to make a corelation…..
March 6th, 2006 at 7:48 pmHippie – As old as you are, I’m sure you’ve heard the saying, “Keep your friends close – your enemies closer.” But while GWB is aware of the protocol that eludes too many contemporary Dems, he knows good and well the Saudi’s are not our friends. It’s kind of like when Repubs and Dems in Congress say “My friend across the aisle…” That’s being civil – not serious.
March 6th, 2006 at 7:54 pmJudd scores another one for propaganda. When your lies are uncovered… just go back to repeating the same lies! Brilliant work. When we show how you take things out of context, and then you take things out of context again to try and prove you are right, you only end up looking like a complete tool, Judd.
Let’s go through these one by one, AGAIN:
1. Cheney said outside of where you snipped that Iraq could possibly acquire nuclear weapons. So obviously Cheney can’t be claiming that Iraq both has nukes and that they might some day get them. It’s wonderful that you took what he said out of context to fool your blind readers once again. Others are not as easily fooled.
2. VoA said “30 to 60 percentâ€, and most estimates put it lower than that. Saying it is 60% is misleading and/or false.
3. If you can’t see the discrepancy between “only 30% of people getting water†and 71% that “rarely have safe, clean waterâ€, I just can’t help you guys. It’s misleading and false.
4. 82% of Iraqis are opposed to us being there, but if you looked at another poll question, it says that only 26% of Iraqis want the USA to leave right now.
5. A “collaborative relationship†is not the same as a “connectionâ€. Why must we always have to sludge through the same tired points again and again? I have a connection with many people in my life, that doesn’t mean I have a collaborative relationship with them all. Thus, alleging a “connection†between al Qaeda and Saddam is not the same as alleging a “collaborative relationshipâ€. Stop spinning it.
I see you didn’t manage to spin the other 4 lies Murtha came up with during his screed, and I bet your readers won’t really care to know about them either. Unfortunate really.
When you defend statements that are so obviously false on their face, that you have to go taking things out of context to support them, it is just pathetic and childish.
It’s OK to admit that Murtha is not telling the truth. Go find another hero to hide behind. Oh. Right, Murtha was your only luck at credibility since he’s a veteran. Darn. Better luck next time.
March 6th, 2006 at 8:27 pmYEAH, CHENEY “SLIPPED HIS TONGUE” IN HINDERAKER’S A**HOLE.
March 6th, 2006 at 8:28 pm#238 – Hippie – I’d give back the fake ediCare Rx drug plan. You shouldn’t have to buy my old relatives their meds. We, their family, should pitch in and do that for our senior family members. If an old person has no family – THEN the government should provide medication for them. That would give us a little leeway, as you say, unless the progs find another 182 programs for ne’er-do-well youth. But progs also view this as a way to employ more administrators – kind of a new era WPA, TVA type of thing.
Murtha – Code Pink’s answer for “HERO”
March 6th, 2006 at 8:35 pm#243- If Saddam was fighting our most vile terrorist enemy, Iran, then why were we selling weapons to Iran at the same time ? You do remember “Iran-Contra”, don’t you ?
March 6th, 2006 at 9:37 pmHarper’s Magazine discussion/forum on IMPEACHMENT
March 6th, 2006 at 9:44 pmSam Seder is moderator
c-span 2 on NOW
“You shouldn’t have to buy my old relatives their meds. We, their family, should pitch in and do that for our senior family members.”
Pitching in? Oh, you mean cannibalism. Well, you kult eunuchs eat children why not your elders.
“Murtha – Code Pink’s answer for “HERO—
Oh, so Ken Doll Mehlman is your answer for a hero? Or perhaps Dick “Better Things” Chaney, or mayhap George “Codpiece” Bush?
March 6th, 2006 at 9:45 pmDo us a favor MA, keep your kids in quarantine by home schooling them. We don’t need another generation of snot rag traitors.
Mr. Hinderaker: Put down the crack pipe. Now….step away from the crack pipe.
March 6th, 2006 at 9:49 pmMA
Accept my apology, that was over the top bringing in your family.
That said, I still think you are total kult whackjob.
March 6th, 2006 at 10:06 pm#243 …Was Rumsfeld photographed with Saddam while Iraq was fighting our most vile terrorist enemy, Iran? You remember the (or studied about) the hostages for 444 days, don’t you?
Conclusion – as usual, Cyra, can’t stretch far enough to make a corelation…..
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Rumsfeld was photographed with Saddam while he knew that Saddam was gassing his own people on a DAILY BASIS, you ignorant fool.
March 6th, 2006 at 11:18 pm
“1. Cheney said outside of where you snipped that Iraq could possibly acquire nuclear weapons. So obviously Cheney can’t be claiming that Iraq both has nukes and that they might some day get them. It’s wonderful that you took what he said out of context to fool your blind readers once again. Others are not as easily fooled.”
He still said it. The nation went to war over WMD’s so it is kind of a major thing. Besides which, my cat could one day have atomic weaponry, it is highly unlikely but it could one day manage it, should I put my cat down just in case?
“2. VoA said “30 to 60 percentâ€, and most estimates put it lower than that. Saying it is 60% is misleading and/or false.”
No, it is taking the upper range of the VoA polls ratings. That said I don’t trust any polls coming out of Iraq right now, not because I believe the soldiers or the reporters are willfully dishonest, but because I believe the people being asked don’t want to get blown up or taken to Gitmo.
“3. If you can’t see the discrepancy between “only 30% of people getting water†and 71% that “rarely have safe, clean waterâ€, I just can’t help you guys. It’s misleading and false.”
Face it, what do you think of when someone says 71% of the people aren’t getting water? You are spinning a bullshit line mate.
“4. 82% of Iraqis are opposed to us being there, but if you looked at another poll question, it says that only 26% of Iraqis want the USA to leave right now.”
82% of Iraqis might well be opposed to the US being there in the first place, but only 26% may feel that any semblance of order will remain if the US, after destroying the previous government and releasing all the criminals, leaves.
“5. A “collaborative relationship†is not the same as a “connectionâ€. Why must we always have to sludge through the same tired points again and again? I have a connection with many people in my life, that doesn’t mean I have a collaborative relationship with them all. Thus, alleging a “connection†between al Qaeda and Saddam is not the same as alleging a “collaborative relationshipâ€. Stop spinning it.”
Hoo boy, so you are saying that because Saddam and Bin Laden actively hated each other’s guts, wanted each other dead in fact, America was right to invade Iraq. Check your spin kid, and face facts, the administration lied to you. Your argument, is weak and weasily stuff, but at least you posted one, which is a cut above the bulk of the Rightwingers here.
Carry on, we need honest Rightwingers on this site.
March 7th, 2006 at 5:04 am*** Please Comment on iTunes ***
March 7th, 2006 at 9:15 amPowerline now has a Podcast listed on iTunes. I found it under “New & Notable.” I added my review of the Podcast (1 out of 5 stars). I suggest the tech-savvy readers add their own reviews or, at least, rate the reviews that are there.
Mighty Aphrodite…
Welcome to Think Progress… Let me give an example of a Republican who has had a good idea that I’m not claiming he stole from Democrats…
Senator Gordon Smith from Oregon… While I disagree with him on a lot of things has championed some mental health legislation to fight depression and suicide among young people.
Do you feel better now or are you going to attack me for commenting here.
As for the actual topic… There are lies, damn lies and statistics.
Z.
March 7th, 2006 at 10:55 am