FOX News: Abu Ghraib Detainee Is ‘Taking Advantage’ Of Being Tortured
FOX News: Abu Ghraib Detainee Is ‘Taking Advantage’ Of Being Tortured
Yesterday, the hosts of Fox News’ “Fox and Friends” questioned the motives of former Abu Ghraib detainee Ali Shalal Qaissi (aka “Clawman”) for speaking out about his situation.
BARBER: He’s taking advantage of this in a lot of ways. He’s put this picture on his business card and is working for a human rights group, trumpeting this.
HILL: So this article is very sympathetic to this guy.
DOOCY: Sure.
The FOX hosts aren’t the first right wingers to make light of torture in Abu Ghraib. This Modern World and AMERICABlog have more.
(HT: News Hounds)
Full transcript below:
HILL: Meanwhile, over the weekend if you read the New York Times you saw an article about a man who allegedly was the man featured in one of the photos from Abu Ghraib and he was dressed head to toe — that’s the one, arms stretched out, he had electrical wires sticking out of his arms. Well, they IDed him in this article as, Ali Shalal Qaissi, 43 years old, says he works for a human rights organization.
BARBER: He’s taking advantage of this in a lot of ways. He’s put this picture on his business card and is working for a human rights group, trumpeting this.
HILL: So this article is very sympathetic to this guy.
DOOCY: Sure.
(Though it’s not relevant to the Fox News exchange, it is worth noting that the New York Times photo is not Clawman, but a detainee named “Gilligan.”)
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DEAD AND WORTHLESS ISSUE ALERT
At a Time Ripe with Administration weakness, we should keep the Devil on the Run; and this one aint it.
DEAD AND WORTHLESS ISSUE ALERT
March 16th, 2006 at 1:11 pmThe repugnant SOBS at FOX will always find a way to discredit anyone who questions der Furher’s war on terror.
March 16th, 2006 at 1:14 pmHe was arrested in October 2003, he said, because he loudly complained to the military, human rights organizations and the news media about soldiers’ dumping garbage on a local soccer field. But some of his comments suggest that he is at least sympathetic toward insurgents who fight American soldiers.
This makes him an ideal candidate to torture , have you seen the mess this guy was left in ????
March 16th, 2006 at 1:18 pmTiki Barber is another example of the Uncle Toms that have been pissing me off. First Lynn Swann, then Claude Allen, before them, Powell and Condi. Now it’s Tiki Barber.
I guess when you have a lot of money, you lose your soul and your identity as an African-American.
WTF is going on?
March 16th, 2006 at 1:23 pmThat’s okay. Today’s Muslims are yesterday’s black slaves. Barber’s come a long way.
March 16th, 2006 at 1:26 pmVIDEO - CNN Anchor asks: “… are these prisoners trying to capitalize on these pictures? Are they looking for opportunities to make money?”
March 16th, 2006 at 1:26 pmYou have money while you can count the money - the minute you have too much money to count , money becomes power , then you can never get enough power BUSH ALL OVER
March 16th, 2006 at 1:27 pmBarber ought to be glad this guy ani’t training somewhere to blow up American landmarks and innocent civilians. What a joke.
March 16th, 2006 at 1:28 pmOur MSM is and has been a HUGE problem.
March 16th, 2006 at 1:30 pmWhat won’t they do for money.
Imagine what would have happend if he had complained about the hundreds of tons of depleted uranium
March 16th, 2006 at 1:31 pmLet me get this straight…they ridicule us every time a celeb speaks out on political matters, but we’re supposed to take seriously everytime a sports figure like the dumb Barber twin or Curt Schilling expresses one?
March 16th, 2006 at 1:33 pmwhen is someone going to come up with a “Mystery Science Theater 3000″ type show with fox news instead of b sci-fi movies…i think a big reason fox can get away with all of these lofty hypothesis and crazy off the wall statements is because no one is holding them accountable
March 16th, 2006 at 1:35 pmIs that Tiki or Ronde? Why the hell do we care what a football player has to say about it anyway? In fact, why isn’t he serving his country if he cares so much? Too busy serving himself, I guess. He better not be in favor of forced minority interviews for NFL coaches or any other form of affirmative action, programs “taking advantage” of slavery and civil rights abuses…
March 16th, 2006 at 1:42 pm12. Olbermann does a superb job of keeping them accountable, but he doesn’t have the viewers Fox does.
March 16th, 2006 at 1:47 pmHe’s only a role model to liberals who oppose the war. To little impressionable boys, he’s not a role model. Geez you guys, don’t you know nothin’? (sarcasm off)
March 16th, 2006 at 1:48 pmWhen I saw that picture, I thougt to myself, “Hey, that looks like Tiki Barber.” I couldn’t figure why Tiki would be qualified to opine on Fox News. Then I realized that no one at Fox News is really quallified anyway.
So….c’mon everyone….
Say it with me:
“Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. “
March 16th, 2006 at 1:48 pm15. Who are you talking about. Olbermann?
March 16th, 2006 at 1:50 pmHey, the guy did EVERY THING HE COULD to become INCARCERATTED & TORTURED cause he knew it was gonna lead to a paying gig. - the world the way Phaux Pnews wished everbody thought.
March 16th, 2006 at 1:52 pm“BARBER: He’s taking advantage of this in a lot of ways. He’s put this picture on his business card and is working for a human rights group, trumpeting this.”
Good! So at least something constructive will come out of what happened to him.
As for the tenor of the right wing, Conservatives HATE moral superiors like Martin Luther King, Bill Clinton, et al. They always try to find a way to attack them because at a subconscious level they realize how hypocritical they are.
FOX is pretty superficial, and athletes aren’t very smart anyway, so they’re a fine match.
(Want to hear something mind-blowingly dumb from an athlete? Mike Piazza met Rush Limbaugh one day and breathlessly reported, “It was just like meeting George Washington!”)
March 16th, 2006 at 1:53 pmTiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki. Tiki.
March 16th, 2006 at 1:53 pmTiki should learn from the Pat Tillman debacle and see that Tillman, who was never self-serving like Tiki cared more about defending the world than he was about living a hedonistic lifestyle that required him to lose his soul.
Even Tillman was questioning the purpose of the Iraqi war which might explain his death by ‘friendly fire.” The media hasn’t covered that part enough.
March 16th, 2006 at 1:54 pmWhat on earth does he have to say about Simon Wisenthal?
March 16th, 2006 at 1:54 pm15. Who are you talking about. Olbermann?
Comment by Shannon — March 16, 2006 @ 1:50 pm
Tiki Barber…
March 16th, 2006 at 1:57 pm#19. Are you serious? That’s what Mike Piazza said? What kind of coke has he been snorting? How much steriods did he shoot in his brain. I don’t remember George Washington calling a female reporter a slavemaster. Rush Limbaugh, who is a sexist (three divorces, no kids, fortunately) racist drug addicted asshole should never bee considered up there with George Wahing, especially by a dumb jock.
Bill Bradley at least has a spine. Barkley is even critical of the Chimp Administration.
March 16th, 2006 at 1:58 pmtiki( ny giants) lmao. this is how STUPID folks really are. just another sheeple. i’ll make sure i post this on the giant message board to let ny know ignorant you really are.
March 16th, 2006 at 2:00 pm#21—i believe that is why “the cover up”. right on!!!!
March 16th, 2006 at 2:01 pmI meant Washington.
Sorry.
March 16th, 2006 at 2:02 pmahhh…you have typed the name Olbermann, gonna git ya now, …Fox Security.
March 16th, 2006 at 2:02 pmThis is but a symptom of the greater ill. There is something rotten in the heart of America, when a man is so sneeringly treat for being tortured by the American Government and daring to speak out about it.
March 16th, 2006 at 2:03 pmE.D Hill is also the same person who was with O’Lielly and made that “mothership” reference on the radio when the guy from Florida mentioned the word “Olbermann.”
bobcat was right. I guess the only way to get a job at Fox News is not to have any qualifications.
March 16th, 2006 at 2:05 pmOops, did I say Olbermann? Excuse me, I gotta get a flight to somewhere. Fox Security isn’t coming are they? Hello, are there any flights out to Canada, prefereably today? ;)
March 16th, 2006 at 2:08 pmDumb Democrat: I’m gonna do a guest shot on Fox.
Normal person: Fox? Isn’t that the show where they belittle innocent torture vicitms?
Dumb Democrat: I’m gonna do a guest shot on Fox.
March 16th, 2006 at 2:10 pmTiki.
March 16th, 2006 at 2:16 pmI think most Americans were disgusted by not only the torture at Abu Ghraib, but by the media’s exploitation of it. It’s a real shame. AND Tiki Barber is a great guy who is entitled to his opinion.
March 16th, 2006 at 2:21 pmTaking advantage of being tortured? Fuck you Fox! Talon
March 16th, 2006 at 2:22 pmMaybe the poor tortured Iraqi man can instead promote Rush Limbaugh’s “Club G’itmo” line of clothes instead.
Because in the Aristo-fascist world of the todays right-wing. They are the only ones who are allowed to capitalize on anything.
Sick nation. Sick man. Sick netework.
Jesus better start saving this nation faster because there ain’t much left worth saving.
-GSD
March 16th, 2006 at 2:23 pmI am entitled to my opinion. These “Fox and Friends” folks sure are nice. And they behave so normally! Americana! So natural! Boy! Waking up to “Fox and Friends” is nothing like waking up in an acid-trip induced alternate reality that’s been choreographed by KGB.
March 16th, 2006 at 2:28 pmShow me the money!
#35
The coverage of Abu Ghraib was needed to show what was really happening. Telling the truth is not exploitation. I just saw “Good Night and Good Luck” last night on DVD. Rent the movie because it covers what the media should have learned back in the 50’s when TV journalism was honest, brutal and truthful.
March 16th, 2006 at 2:33 pmThese guys apparently signed up for torture so they could sell the movie rights. That’s what I do when I need some extra cash…
March 16th, 2006 at 2:42 pmWhy does a guy named Barber shave his head?
March 16th, 2006 at 2:51 pmTiki. Tiki. Tiki.
RHONDI?
Who the Hell names these kids, anyway?
If you haven’t enlisted, you don’t support our troops!
“Moderate Mary” -another re-tread of the likes of folks that have already been seen, not even a woman you are.
March 16th, 2006 at 3:04 pmTO take a page from their playbook…who the hell cares what this entertainter thinks about this issue? He is an idiot and should stick to his entertainment. What on earth would make this person think that playing football makes him competant to speak about this issue. He shoudl shut up and go home.
March 16th, 2006 at 3:04 pmYeah,
I can see how being tortured would be something that should be above exploitation, just like being attacked by terrorists would be above exploitation. But it hasn’t stopped bush and every shameless republican from doing just that.
Hypocrisy and foolishness - thy name is REPUBLICAN.
March 16th, 2006 at 3:15 pmAs for the tenor of the right wing, Conservatives HATE moral superiors like Martin Luther King, Bill Clinton, et al. They always try to find a way to attack them because at a subconscious level they realize how hypocritical they are.
Comment by ElectricBassPlayer
I just spit my root beer all over my desk and keyboard. Thanks a lot.
Brother Martin gave up the Gospel of Jesus Christ for the Gospel of BLACK POWAH. Brother Clinton didn’t give up anything. He was a vainglorious whoremonger before and after he became our nation’s first black president. Want a cigar?
Mental Midgets and Moral Morons make up the base of the Donk party. 08 is going to be a slam dunk. Hell, I could get elected if they ran Hillary against me!
March 16th, 2006 at 3:25 pmthis is not the prisoner on the box!! he is lying, the prisoner on the box is a twenty eight year old man named Saad who happens to have NO deformed left hand. Take a closer look. All those photos of a man on a box are the SAME prisoner.
March 16th, 2006 at 3:28 pm[Comment deleted by admin]
March 16th, 2006 at 3:34 pmIRI- For God’s sake go find an ass to stick your head in.
March 16th, 2006 at 4:19 pmIRI is just funny anymore. What a joke. If I ever want to take a trip into the past, like when we read the Time Machine, I just read an IRI post and wammo, back to 1950.
IRI is just getting out his angst. He is sitting at a keyboard, stealing time from his boss, and saying all the things he is much to sheepish to say to “real” people. He cannot confront his peers and has to spend most of his time hiding his bigotry and racism. Most definately because he happens to work with someone not white.
So let him spew and just know that when you see one of his posts, the angrier and meaner he gets, merely tells us that he is having a bad day. He must get it out some way and we are here for him. It’s probably better that he be here instead of heading some KKK meeting, burning black churches or killing doctors that perform abortions as part of their practice.
The more I see of him, the better for society.
March 16th, 2006 at 4:31 pmI-RIGHT-I thinks he is the sun and the world revolves around him, and progressive and proud is his poodle
March 16th, 2006 at 4:57 pm[Comment deleted by admin]
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — March 16, 2006 @ 3:34 pm
Sheesh…you can’t even wish for the death of America’s enemies around here! The guy in the article was a Ba’athist big wig. That means he was one of Sadam’s torturers and killers. Was he tortured like he tortured his fellow Iraqi citizens…hell no. I’d fix that.
March 16th, 2006 at 5:32 pmIRI is just getting out his angst. He is sitting at a keyboard, stealing time from his boss, and saying all the things he is much to sheepish to say to “real†people. He cannot confront his peers and has to spend most of his time hiding his bigotry and racism. Most definately because he happens to work with someone not white.
So let him spew and just know that when you see one of his posts, the angrier and meaner he gets, merely tells us that he is having a bad day. He must get it out some way and we are here for him. It’s probably better that he be here instead of heading some KKK meeting, burning black churches or killing doctors that perform abortions as part of their practice.
The more I see of him, the better for society.
Comment by progressive and proud
You are my poodle.
March 16th, 2006 at 5:34 pm#29 Bruce Gorton
March 16th, 2006 at 5:36 pmThere is something rotten in the heart of America…
I think you are sadly correct, BUT that rottenness has not spread to the whole heart of America. It is encapsulated in a rotten tumor of right-wing extremists who populate FoxTV and Limbaugh’s radio. At this time, that rotten tumor is inflamed, and the effects are being felt throughout the system, but America will overcome this tumor of hate and callousness, and subdue it.
The mindless and hateful scum that spew their venom across Fox-TV should take a good look at themselves; they are poisoning themselves as well as their viewers.
The mindless and hateful scum that spew their venom across Fox-TV should take a good look at themselves; they are poisoning themselves as well as their viewers.
Comment by Marie
Spoken like a true homosexual loving, treasonous, baby killing left wing fucktard. Are you Canadian by any chance?
March 16th, 2006 at 6:12 pmBaby-killing - you mean like this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4809160.stm
March 16th, 2006 at 6:35 pmOur MSM is and has been a HUGE problem.
What won’t they do for money.
Report the truth?
March 16th, 2006 at 7:08 pm35- Exploitation? You mean like not running the really inhumane details? Or not asking why this type of behavior is accepted by those in charge, unless there is photographic evidence? Like not asking what this really says about Americans and our supposed ideals? Why our soldiers are doing this to innocent people?
Tiki is a very good football player, but his statements make him look like an ignorant dumbass. Capitalizing on being tortured? Tiki, go fuck yourself.
March 16th, 2006 at 7:19 pm46- That’s vainglorious warmonger. And that would be your boy in the White House.
March 16th, 2006 at 7:25 pmWhat’s the record for most deleted comments on a single thread?
March 16th, 2006 at 7:27 pmDavid: Ask Jim Brady and Deb Howell.
March 16th, 2006 at 7:31 pm53- Put Kool Aid down, you don’t even know whom you are calling for to be killed. Jeez, does your mom know that you use her computer to write stupid shit like this on the internet? You sound like you are about 12 or 13. For your sake, I hope you are. If you are of adult age, you are a sociopath that needs to be away from society.
Have a nice day.
March 16th, 2006 at 7:32 pm66- Indeed. Of course, I would expect that from them. I was wondering if NED/IRI/MA/whomever the name is today is approaching any other dubious distinctions.
March 16th, 2006 at 7:45 pmThe first time I saw fox & friends I thought “Oh cool they got crotch level cameras and cuties wearing mini-skirts.” But the poor bimbos gotta sit there with their legs crossed the whole time. Imagine the stench that emerges when they get to uncross their legs towards the end of a 3 hour propaganda fest.
March 16th, 2006 at 7:55 pm— I read the article about this abuse victim guy in the NYT. He seemed like a honest sincere person that had something terrible happen to him, and was just trying his best to see that it didn’t happen to others. — He really reminds me of that Pakastani woman that got gang raped, and then instead of committing suicide, she sued the perpatrators. She took the proceeds from the lawsuit and opened 2 schools in her village (one for boys and one for girls). She thought that if the kids were well educated this kind of thing would be less likely to happen. — I think tikis reaction to this as an example of projection, he doesn’t do anything isn’t cravenly self serving, so he can’t imagine someone else would.
Tiki Barber giving political commentary?
What’s next?
Roger Clemens with the weather?
Also, how is this any different from Alec Baldwin or Al Franken going on television and talking about politics? In their cases, the right vilifies them for saying anything in public, but football players are a-okay on commentary in their book.
March 16th, 2006 at 8:34 pmI don’t get what Tiki Barber is saying. This man was tortured so working for a human rights organization is somehow taking advantage of it? I’d say it is turning a negative into a positive. I don’t know if this man was an insurgent or not but I certainly do not condone torture of anybody.
What would Tiki say to rape victims working for organizations that assist others that were victims of rape?
How about Mothers Against Drunk Driving? Yeah, those opportunistic bitches…
March 16th, 2006 at 8:40 pm[…] Tiki. Keep your dumb comments to yourself and keeping winning me points in fantasy football. Permalink| […]
March 16th, 2006 at 8:54 pmI-RIGHT-I, in every way the country was better off after Clinton left office than before he started — oh, except the right wing LOST IT’S FUCKING MIND.
I can’t think of any way the country is better off now under Bush.
March 16th, 2006 at 9:06 pmIt’s really a shame that this guy (reverse field KKK guy) is walking around today actually acting like this was a big deal. I cannot believe that he would have the guts to put this picture on a business card, as if it’s a meaningful event!
Ok, sarcasm aside. Why are they so shocked that this tortured person is finding strength from his torturers?
Idiots.
March 16th, 2006 at 10:10 pmThese people have no shame and have lost all decency. They should be fired immediately if for no other reason that having lost their understanding of what it means to be a true American.
March 16th, 2006 at 10:23 pmMatt O-
You definitely hit the nail on the head. Tiki has been stuck in that mansion in the hills too long to understand that there are people like you and me who may not make as much money as he and may have had more misfortunes in life that’s less traumatic than not getting to the Super Bowl. (Of course, being a Pittsburgh Steelers fan, I have moments of joy.) Drug addicts working in rehab centers to help addicts recover by sharing their stories. Rape victims, as you have said, working in organizations that assist victims of those same crimes. The Scared Straight programs in which hardened criminals in prison gives juveniles a taste of what prison life will be like if they don’t straighten up.
It’s a shame that, as an African-American I have to look down at what I thought was a talented bright athlete and is now a rich shallow, celeberity who has never read a newspaper or even read a book about Civil Rights and Human Rights.
March 16th, 2006 at 11:25 pmOh, to IRIGHTI, you’d better hope that no one gives Marie the address of where you live. Waking up one night and seeing her holding a pair of scissors might be the start of your greatest nightmare to date.
March 16th, 2006 at 11:28 pmTiki Barber needs to get in touch with fellow conservative Adele Ferguson so he can explain to her how Ali Shalal Qaissi is taking advantage of being tortured, and she can -in return- explain Tiki how there is a pony hiden in slavery.
It would be interesting to see what Tiki has to say to that.
March 16th, 2006 at 11:49 pm#4 Jimbo: Well, you’re partially right. When you have an obscene amount of money you lose all sense of what it is to be human. It doesn’t just apply to an idiotic, dipshit, callous, thoughtless black football player.
Let’s all of us volunteer for some good old fashioned American torture so we can profit from it and go have some fun at Disney World.
March 17th, 2006 at 12:55 amJeez, I can’t figure out whether the Faux folks are needling Olbermann’s sportscaster background (why indeed care what a football player thinks), or trying to beg off the Claude Allen evil twin debacle by showing that “Lots of negr-ah-colored people are twins!”
March 17th, 2006 at 4:18 amPlease ignore I-R-I. He/she/it is irrelevant.
March 17th, 2006 at 8:51 amTo all of you who are living in a utopian dream world: please stop thinking. You are clearly wired wrong for this type of thought, i.e. common sense. To torture the enemy for the puposes of gaining military intelligence is the only sane course to take. If you disagree, grow up. Islamic radicals are evil. Ooohh…there’s that word you hate. lol. Just as you hate all truth that you may find dissapointing. They are cutting people’s heads off. Purposefully killing elderly, and children. they are burning people alive. Please re-read the last three sentences. Let it sink in. This isn’t about who wins an argument. It is about evil. Pure evil. If even one small piece of intelligence gathered through torture leads to the saving of just 1 life, it is far and away a worthy exchange.
I have just read all of your posts above. You collectively are some of the angriest, ill mannered, bitter, and contemptuous posters I have ever read. I see no critical thought, nor common sense. And of course, even less love for ANYTHING American. You have made me sad. That you probably feel good to have made me sad, makes me sadder. Some of you may choose to reject God. Or to reject GWB. Or even to reject America, and its way of life. Please stop rejecting truth and rational thought.
Our enemy HATES you. And your grandmother. They would cut you up into little tiny pieces if they were able to do so. Maybe watch a little less of the Abu-Grahib non-scandal, and more of the beheadings that make for their evening television entertainment. Realize what we are up against. EVIL.
March 17th, 2006 at 9:07 amOh, to IRIGHTI, you’d better hope that no one gives Marie the address of where you live. Waking up one night and seeing her holding a pair of scissors might be the start of your greatest nightmare to date.
Comment by JIMBO
You be right ’bout dat.
March 17th, 2006 at 9:20 amLet’s all of us volunteer for some good old fashioned American torture so we can profit from it and go have some fun at Disney World.
Comment by Mr. Evil
Good old fashioned American torture:
AN AIR BASE IN IRAQ - The U.S. Air Force has begun moving heavily armed AC-130 airplanes — the lethal “flying gunships†of the Vietnam War — to a base in Iraq as commanders search for new tools to counter the Iraqi resistance, The Associated Press has learned.
An AP reporter saw the first of the turboprop-driven aircraft after it landed at the airfield this week. Four are expected.
The Iraq-based special forces command controlling the AC-130s, the Combined Joint Special Operations Task Force, said it would have no comment on the deployment. But the plan’s general outline was confirmed by other Air Force officers, speaking anonymously because of the sensitivity of the subject.
Spooky is back in town. I think we can count on new figures of “civilian” Iraqi deaths from Al Jazeria and CNN in the next week or so.
It’s really going to suck to be terrorist. I hope many of you will volunteer to be human shields. They will need all the help they can get from the Filthy Left tonight.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ac-130.htm
March 17th, 2006 at 9:34 amYou collectively are some of the angriest, ill mannered, bitter, and contemptuous posters I have ever read. I see no critical thought, nor common sense. And of course, even less love for ANYTHING American. You have made me sad. That you probably feel good to have made me sad, makes me sadder.
Comment by Realitydweller — March 17, 2006 @ 9:07 am
You’re goddamn right I’m angry. I’m angry that there are people in this country who believe that torturing Iraqis is (a) American (b) retaliation for 9/11 (c) going to make us safer, and (d) a joke. I don’t want to make you sad. I want to make you realize that this country we both love is not doing anything either of us should admire.
As for rational thought, blind allegiance is not a sign of it…
March 17th, 2006 at 9:50 amYou’re goddamn right I’m angry. I’m angry that there are people in this country who believe that torturing Iraqis is (a) American (b) retaliation for 9/11 (c) going to make us safer, and (d) a joke. I don’t want to make you sad. I want to make you realize that this country we both love is not doing anything either of us should admire.
As for rational thought, blind allegiance is not a sign of it…
Comment by Yachts and Lattes
grow up loser
March 17th, 2006 at 10:08 amYou’re goddamn right I’m angry. I’m angry that there are people in this country who believe that torturing Iraqis is (a) American (b) retaliation for 9/11 (c) going to make us safer, and (d) a joke. I don’t want to make you sad. I want to make you realize that this country we both love is not doing anything either of us should admire.
As for rational thought, blind allegiance is not a sign of it…
Comment by Yachts and Lattes
Critical thinking. Rational thought. Sigh. No where in my post did I say that torturing Iraqi’s was ‘American’, or ‘retalliation for 9/11′. I never even mentioned 9/11. What you are demonstrating is dissociative thought. You are addressing me, with regards to subjects and statements that aren’t mine. I blindly follow NO ONE. Ever. I am most definitely not a supporter of GWB, if that’s what your ‘blind allegiance’ was reffering to.
I honestly don’t believe that there is any man or woman in politics worthy of my vote for any office, let alone the Presidency. Yet I always vote. I vote for what I hope to be the ‘lesser of two evils’, and it hurts my stomach every time I have to do it.
Through all of my study of Islam, and the middle, and far East, I have become convinced that total world domination is the only goal our enemies have. the extermination of the world’s Jews is only the first step towards that goal. America, and Europe are steps two and three. You may not belive this, mainly because you do not want to. However I do belive it, and it scares the sh*t out of me. Not for my sake, but my children, and all Americans in the next few generations.
I may (and do) disagree with the ‘bring Democracy to the muslim world’ idea, however it is the only constructive idea I’ve heard in the political world. Offensive military action, as I see it is the only way to defeat an enemy who only speaks in lies. Ever notice that? I mean American politicians lie all the time, sure, but Muslim leaders only lie. I mean always. That should tell us all something.
I realize that your opinion differs from mine, but I belive that torture always works, and sometimes makes us definitively safer, or our troops at least (God bless them). It is ugly, and tough to deal with, but that is the nature of war. Think about it, if you were being tortured, and had information, eventually you would give it up. It would only be a matter of time. They may be evil, but our enemies are only human after all.
March 17th, 2006 at 10:22 amRealitydweller
Here is how I would handle being tortured. Lie like a motherfucker, and lead the torturer into giving his masters false information which could result in a major military screw-up, hence strengthening my side of the fight.
I would not give up vital information, precisely because torture would polarise my idealogy against the torturers. Simply telling lies would actually be a strong means of winning some payback.
Further, I would do this even if I didn’t have any vital information, because torture is seldom used to gain accurate information, and often used to gain the kind of “Information” ones captors want. Oh, and it is never verifiable.
I would certainly not hold my captors as being morally superior in any way, and would strongly defend the moral right of anyone who decides to kill a few of them. In short, I would view my captors in exactly the same light as captured American soldiers viewed the Japanese in and after WWII.
In the case of me being a total innocent, torture would encentivise me turning into a radical militant. Torture didn’t exactly soften the victims of the Nazi’s views of their captors. It certainly hasn’t helped the Catholic Church.
Torture does not work. It is stupid Hollywood crap which is only ever considered effective by those successfully lobotomised by watching endless re-runs of 24. You torture somebody, and they don’t anything they are not going to turn into your best friend whatever the guys who wrote “The Punisher” tell you.
If you want an effective information gathering technique: Treat your prisoners well. Send in friendly, nice people as guards who are good enough actors as to make themselves seem like they sympathise. Send in Arabic speaking secret agents, be all smiles even when spat on and eventually you will win some informants. You don’t send in retardates with a penchant for kinky shit.
Oh and the second you do, you lose any right to criticise your opponent for breaking the Geneva conventions. Moral superiority is born of morally superior behavior, not by simply saying your nation über alles like some sort of Fascist dictatorial dick.
March 17th, 2006 at 11:35 am69- That guy was in featured in a documentary shown on LinkTV
March 17th, 2006 at 11:57 amI would not give up vital information, precisely because torture would polarise my idealogy against the torturers. Simply telling lies would actually be a strong means of winning some payback.
Comment by Bruce Gorton
We’re not talking about the movies. You’d give up your own mother when the going got tough.
March 17th, 2006 at 12:25 pmBruce Gorton
There are some individuals on whom torture would not work. Prolonged torture, as in POW camps is unreliable. However, torture is one of the most effective interrogation methods when used by trained interrogators. It has worked in virtually every war ever fought by anyone. It was written about in antiquity as a usefull tool for garnishing information. And it saves lives. That is the truth. The idea that it doesn’t work is just plain silly, illogical, and in contradiction to the view of every effective military on the planet.
If you have read the Geneva convention, then I’m sure you know that under its very own guidelines, ‘unlawfull combatents’ are exempt. To have Geneva protection, one must abide by the rules of war. Al Qaeda does not, and neither do Iraqi insurgents. This isn’t some ‘loophole’, the rules are the rules for a reason. If you do not represent an organized army with veiwable insignia, you are breaking the rules that would afford you Geneva protection.
I’m not trying to convince you of my point of view, just stating it, so that you may see how it differs from yours.
March 17th, 2006 at 12:58 pmOh, and does this go for your soldiers too? They are after all, technically unlawfully occupying a sovereign state, and therefore, by your own admission, no longer covered by basic human rights. The UN rejected America’s case for war.
If this is the sort of superiority that western has to offer, then I want none of it. You criticise the Arabs for their human rights abuses, where the fuck do you get off?
March 17th, 2006 at 3:38 pmOh, and “unlawful combatants” equals civilians because who the fuck says they are combatants? There is no excuse for torture. In the case of enemy soldiers IT IS A WAR CRIME and it shocks the shit out of me what degenerates the world now has sitting on top of the worlds biggest nuclear arsenal.
I don’t care that this is ad-hominem, but look at yourselves. America is dying, not from some great threat by guys in turbans, strangely capable of completing a task not even a world nuclear super-power could pull of, but via you.
With every action you allow in the name of your overwhelming fear, with every action you champion through your fear, with every single representitive you elect through your fear, you condemn yourselves.
And no, torture has not been shown to be highly useful as a means of gathering information. Just ask senator McCain, he suffered it, ask those who broke how useful they were. The only time torture is useful is if the information is absolutely urgent, and even then you have to know who to torture for it. Torture is rarely worth the cost, and the information is not considered highly reliable by even its proponents.
You want victory? You want to really triumph? Forget fear. Fear is what gave the world Apartheid, it is what gave the world its dictators and its tyrants. Fear, and those who worship it. Think clearly, and you will see what needs to be done. Let your fear control you, and you will only destroy yourselves in your flat panic.
March 17th, 2006 at 4:10 pmDamn, even the race card ain’t sacred anymore.
March 17th, 2006 at 6:35 pm#91 RD ‘unlawfull combatents’ are exempt
March 17th, 2006 at 8:02 pmIsn’t that why Bush declared allthose detainees as such — so he could avoid Geneva convention regulations? The worst of it is that he declared himself the final arbiter of just who is an “enemy combatant” — rather conveniently.
Anyone who has ever been tortured , for whatever cause, knows that
you will say anything to stop the pain if it is sevear enough. Therefore,
information gathered under the most trying of human circustances,
is not truely reliable.
The torture of a few, is meant to put fear into the population at large as
much as it is to gain info from the tortured. Setting the example, so to
speak. It’s all part of psy-war in modern military times, and has resulted
in our mistakes in the middle east torture cases.
The old saying that that, “You catch more flies with honey, than with
vinegar” is just as true today as it has always been. Torture will never really
accomplish much more than the hatred of those subjected to it. Playing global
cop with unrestricted miliutary power guarantees that Pax Americana will have
it’s enmies. But, that’s what the game is really all about anyway, huh?
Would Jesus approve of Abu Graif? Just say no to satanic torture, and practice
March 17th, 2006 at 9:32 pmthe Golden Rule that we so-called “christians” claim to believe in. But, as Jesus
proclaimed (quoting the Profet Isaiah), “By their mouths they claim me, but their
hearts are far from me”.
Would Jesus approve of Abu Graif? Just say no to satanic torture, and practice
the Golden Rule that we so-called “christians†claim to believe in. But, as Jesus
proclaimed (quoting the Profet Isaiah), “By their mouths they claim me, but their
hearts are far from meâ€.
Comment by agitator
You mean the Jesus who will one day be covered in the blood of his enemies as He cleanses the Earth from all unrighteous men and women? You mean the one who in doing so will kill 75% of the planet and then rule it with a rod of iron. That Jesus? No He probably wouldn’t approve. But He’s not here yet so what’s your point?
March 17th, 2006 at 10:42 pmAnd no, torture has not been shown to be highly useful as a means of gathering information. Just ask senator McCain, he suffered it,
Comment by Bruce Gorton
Bullshit, like a lot of men in Vietnam, McCain broke. So the story goes.
March 17th, 2006 at 10:45 pmI-RIGHT-I:
You mom says to check the salt in the water softener, since your room is in the basement.
p.s. quit peeking in on us… perv
March 18th, 2006 at 3:16 amA phony baloney, New York Times gets it wrong again….
Cited as Symbol of Abu Ghraib, Man Admits He Is Not in Photo
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The New York Times said on Saturday it had identified the wrong man as the hooded prisoner standing on a box in a photograph that came to symbolize U.S. military abuses at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison.
The newspaper’s March 11 profile about Ali Shalal Qaissi was challenged by online magazine Salon.com, which said an Army investigation had concluded the prisoner was a different man.
“The Times did not adequately research Mr. Qaissi’s insistence that he was the man in the photograph,” The Times said in an editor’s note accompanying a front page story on the misidentification.
“A more thorough examination of previous articles in The Times and other newspapers would have shown that in 2004 military investigators named another man as the one on the box, raising suspicions about Mr. Qaissi’s claim,” it said.
The Times, one of the most respected U.S. newspapers, was stung in 2003 when former reporter Jayson Blair was found to have fabricated and plagiarized dozens of articles. Last year, the resignation of star reporter Judith Miller amid questions about her reporting in the run-up to the Iraq war further damaged the paper’s standing.
I think someone ought to fix that guy’s wagon for lying. The Times wagon is already fixed, they’ll be out of business in ten years unless some honest conservative people take over the paper.
March 18th, 2006 at 2:02 pmhttp://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact
Read it. And tell me, do innocent civilians count as illegal combatants?
“By fall, according to the former intelligence official, the senior leadership of the C.I.A. had had enough. “They said, ‘No way. We signed up for the core program in Afghanistan—pre-approved for operations against high-value terrorist targets—and now you want to use it for cabdrivers, brothers-in-law, and people pulled off the streets’ â€â€””
Does that sound like illegal combatants to you?
March 19th, 2006 at 1:04 pmWhen I look at G. W. Bush, I see little more than a pampered, Texas beer-joint bigmouth. But neither am I a Democrat. I voted for Kerry simply because the thought of voting for Bush was repugnant. Now, regarding this post, I have little interest in what some sports celebrity has to say about politics and even less about what I-RIGHT-I has to say since I believe his/her only motive is to heckle. I do think, however, that Realitydweller has some valid points. There would probably be few if any arguments in this forum against the fact that Islamic fundimentalist leaders and their followers would (as they have proclaimed time and again) like nothing better than to slaughter as many Americans as possible and, if given the means, would do exactly that. The question is, what means should we employ to frustrate their efforts? My answer is, any weapon or tactic at our disposal. Absolutely nothing should be taken from the table. As to the efficacy of torture, from what I’ve read it’s similar to that of a fad diet. It works with some, with others it doesn’t. It certainly worked with Galileo. Merely being shown the instruments of torture by the Catholic bishops cause him to quickly renounce his own teachings on the Copernican system of celestial spheres. As to the ethics of torture, war isn’t about ethics. As any terrorist, or for that matter, any field commander on either side during WWII, would gladly tell you, war is about the violent, merciless and total destruction, by all means available, of the enemy’s ability or will to fight. A lesson we seem to have forgotten and, perhaps, should relearn before it’s too late.
March 19th, 2006 at 8:23 pmGalileo:
All that shows is that torture gets you the answer you want to hear, it does not show torture as an appropriate means to find the truth.
What the fuck is wrong with America? Seriously, you had better not complain about your soldiers or your civilians getting tortured if this is the way you demonstrate how much “better” you are.
March 20th, 2006 at 6:26 amBruce,
Thanks for responding to my comment. You were right to call me on my “Galileo†argument. It may have been a bad example, yet in another sense it only serves to illistrate my point. Namely, that torture can work.. The inquisitors, after all, got what they wanted to hear even though it was a lie and they probably knew it. Now, if a person can be induced to lie against his will under torture, or the threat of it, why would it be impossible to extract reliable and verifiable information from a person under simliar conditions? Suppose, for example, Galileo had hidden his heritical writtings and refused to disclose their whereabouts. Would you seriously argure that, after being forced to browse the torture shop, he would not have handed them over? Our enemies use torture not to glean information but to horrify the public. They video-tape their acts of torture and broadcast them to the world. Should we stoop to their level? In the sense of torturing for public consumtion, certainly not. Yet the very nature of war draws both sides, by default, to the same level regardless of the principles at stake.
As to your question about what’s wrong with America, perhaps I really am part of the problem; I and others like me who believe that a principled war or a “war of compassion,†as the phrase goes, is an absurd notion. The Bush Administration is attempting to redefine the current war as some sort of humanitarian project and people are swollowing the idea with little rumination. The WMDs having failed to materialize, Mr. Bush now wants us to believe that the real reason for going to war was to save the Iraqi People from a totalitarian regime. Meanwhile, we the Public torture ourselves daily from guilt heaped upon us by the media over the maltreatment of American held prisoners of war. Don’t you get it, Bruce? This is a news media frenzy. Those same gutless elites who so slavishly pandered to the Muslims during the so-called “cartoon controversy†seem to have no fear of retaliation when it comes to shoving America’s face in the dirt.
March 20th, 2006 at 6:56 pmWho gives a crap what happens to the bastards that wear civilian clothes, hide behind women and children when they fire, bomb churches and ice cream parlors and chop the heads of social workers? These people are not an army, they are not freedom fighters they are animals and since they have a mind and a conscience deserve to be tortured if for nothing else, FOR THE FUN OF IT. There ‘ya go. Case closed. Next?
March 21st, 2006 at 8:30 pmTiki Barber is the classiest guy you will ever meet. Oh, and that’s right, he’s a right handed hitter.
May 2nd, 2006 at 2:36 amWhat Barber said here is entirely true. The guy is “taking advantage” of being tortured.
October 30th, 2006 at 2:08 pmFortunately, the “advantage” is being gained by the HR group that he’s working for, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
I wonder what Barber would say if he were asked, pointedly, if it was the wrong thing to do.