Thanks for responding to my comment. You were right to call me on my “Galileo” argument. It may have been a bad example, yet in another sense it only serves to illistrate my point. Namely, that torture can work.. The inquisitors, after all, got what they wanted to hear even though it was a lie and they probably knew it. Now, if a person can be induced to lie against his will under torture, or the threat of it, why would it be impossible to extract reliable and verifiable information from a person under simliar conditions? Suppose, for example, Galileo had hidden his heritical writtings and refused to disclose their whereabouts. Would you seriously argure that, after being forced to browse the torture shop, he would not have handed them over? Our enemies use torture not to glean information but to horrify the public. They video-tape their acts of torture and broadcast them to the world. Should we stoop to their level? In the sense of torturing for public consumtion, certainly not. Yet the very nature of war draws both sides, by default, to the same level regardless of the principles at stake.

As to your question about what’s wrong with America, perhaps I really am part of the problem; I and others like me who believe that a principled war or a “war of compassion,” as the phrase goes, is an absurd notion. The Bush Administration is attempting to redefine the current war as some sort of humanitarian project and people are swollowing the idea with little rumination. The WMDs having failed to materialize, Mr. Bush now wants us to believe that the real reason for going to war was to save the Iraqi People from a totalitarian regime. Meanwhile, we the Public torture ourselves daily from guilt heaped upon us by the media over the maltreatment of American held prisoners of war. Don’t you get it, Bruce? This is a news media frenzy. Those same gutless elites who so slavishly pandered to the Muslims during the so-called “cartoon controversy” seem to have no fear of retaliation when it comes to shoving America’s face in the dirt.

All that shows is that torture gets you the answer you want to hear, it does not show torture as an appropriate means to find the truth.

What the fuck is wrong with America? Seriously, you had better not complain about your soldiers or your civilians getting tortured if this is the way you demonstrate how much “better” you are.

Read it. And tell me, do innocent civilians count as illegal combatants?

“By fall, according to the former intelligence official, the senior leadership of the C.I.A. had had enough. “They said, ‘No way. We signed up for the core program in Afghanistan—pre-approved for operations against high-value terrorist targets—and now you want to use it for cabdrivers, brothers-in-law, and people pulled off the streets’ ”—”

Does that sound like illegal combatants to you?

I think someone ought to fix that guy’s wagon for lying. The Times wagon is already fixed, they’ll be out of business in ten years unless some honest conservative people take over the paper.

You mom says to check the salt in the water softener, since your room is in the basement.

p.s. quit peeking in on us… perv

Comment by Bruce Gorton

Bullshit, like a lot of men in Vietnam, McCain broke. So the story goes.

Comment by agitator

You mean the Jesus who will one day be covered in the blood of his enemies as He cleanses the Earth from all unrighteous men and women? You mean the one who in doing so will kill 75% of the planet and then rule it with a rod of iron. That Jesus? No He probably wouldn’t approve. But He’s not here yet so what’s your point?

The torture of a few, is meant to put fear into the population at large as
much as it is to gain info from the tortured. Setting the example, so to
speak. It’s all part of psy-war in modern military times, and has resulted
in our mistakes in the middle east torture cases.

The old saying that that, “You catch more flies with honey, than with
vinegar” is just as true today as it has always been. Torture will never really
accomplish much more than the hatred of those subjected to it. Playing global
cop with unrestricted miliutary power guarantees that Pax Americana will have
it’s enmies. But, that’s what the game is really all about anyway, huh?

Would Jesus approve of Abu Graif? Just say no to satanic torture, and practice
the Golden Rule that we so-called “christians” claim to believe in. But, as Jesus
proclaimed (quoting the Profet Isaiah), “By their mouths they claim me, but their
hearts are far from me”.

I don’t care that this is ad-hominem, but look at yourselves. America is dying, not from some great threat by guys in turbans, strangely capable of completing a task not even a world nuclear super-power could pull of, but via you.

With every action you allow in the name of your overwhelming fear, with every action you champion through your fear, with every single representitive you elect through your fear, you condemn yourselves.

And no, torture has not been shown to be highly useful as a means of gathering information. Just ask senator McCain, he suffered it, ask those who broke how useful they were. The only time torture is useful is if the information is absolutely urgent, and even then you have to know who to torture for it. Torture is rarely worth the cost, and the information is not considered highly reliable by even its proponents.

You want victory? You want to really triumph? Forget fear. Fear is what gave the world Apartheid, it is what gave the world its dictators and its tyrants. Fear, and those who worship it. Think clearly, and you will see what needs to be done. Let your fear control you, and you will only destroy yourselves in your flat panic.

If this is the sort of superiority that western has to offer, then I want none of it. You criticise the Arabs for their human rights abuses, where the fuck do you get off?

There are some individuals on whom torture would not work. Prolonged torture, as in POW camps is unreliable. However, torture is one of the most effective interrogation methods when used by trained interrogators. It has worked in virtually every war ever fought by anyone. It was written about in antiquity as a usefull tool for garnishing information. And it saves lives. That is the truth. The idea that it doesn’t work is just plain silly, illogical, and in contradiction to the view of every effective military on the planet.

If you have read the Geneva convention, then I’m sure you know that under its very own guidelines, ‘unlawfull combatents’ are exempt. To have Geneva protection, one must abide by the rules of war. Al Qaeda does not, and neither do Iraqi insurgents. This isn’t some ‘loophole’, the rules are the rules for a reason. If you do not represent an organized army with veiwable insignia, you are breaking the rules that would afford you Geneva protection.

I’m not trying to convince you of my point of view, just stating it, so that you may see how it differs from yours.

Comment by Bruce Gorton

We’re not talking about the movies. You’d give up your own mother when the going got tough.

Here is how I would handle being tortured. Lie like a motherfucker, and lead the torturer into giving his masters false information which could result in a major military screw-up, hence strengthening my side of the fight.

I would not give up vital information, precisely because torture would polarise my idealogy against the torturers. Simply telling lies would actually be a strong means of winning some payback.

Further, I would do this even if I didn’t have any vital information, because torture is seldom used to gain accurate information, and often used to gain the kind of “Information” ones captors want. Oh, and it is never verifiable.

I would certainly not hold my captors as being morally superior in any way, and would strongly defend the moral right of anyone who decides to kill a few of them. In short, I would view my captors in exactly the same light as captured American soldiers viewed the Japanese in and after WWII.

In the case of me being a total innocent, torture would encentivise me turning into a radical militant. Torture didn’t exactly soften the victims of the Nazi’s views of their captors. It certainly hasn’t helped the Catholic Church.

Torture does not work. It is stupid Hollywood crap which is only ever considered effective by those successfully lobotomised by watching endless re-runs of 24. You torture somebody, and they don’t anything they are not going to turn into your best friend whatever the guys who wrote “The Punisher” tell you.

If you want an effective information gathering technique: Treat your prisoners well. Send in friendly, nice people as guards who are good enough actors as to make themselves seem like they sympathise. Send in Arabic speaking secret agents, be all smiles even when spat on and eventually you will win some informants. You don’t send in retardates with a penchant for kinky shit.

Oh and the second you do, you lose any right to criticise your opponent for breaking the Geneva conventions. Moral superiority is born of morally superior behavior, not by simply saying your nation über alles like some sort of Fascist dictatorial dick.