VIDEO: How The Bush Administration Muzzles The Government’s Top Global Warming Scientist
VIDEO: How The Bush Administration Muzzles The Government’s Top Global Warming Scientist
Yesterday, 60 Minutes aired a powerful segment documenting how the Bush administration has muzzled the government’s top global warming researcher, James Hansen. Watch an excerpt:
Check out more coverage of the segment on The Left Coaster and Daily Kos.
Transcript:
HANSEN: In my more than three decades in the government, I’ve never witnessed such restrictions on the ability of scientists to communicate with the public.
PELLEY: Restrictions like this email that Hansen’s Institute received from NASA in 2004: “…there’s a new review process… The White House [is] now reviewing all climate related press releases.†Why the scrutiny of Hansen’s work? Well, his Goddard Institute for Space Studies is the source of respected, but sobering research on warming. It recently announced 2005 was the warmest year on record. Hansen started at NASA more than 30 years ago, and spent nearly all of that time studying the earth. How important is his work? We asked someone at the top – Ralph Cicerone, president of the nation’s leading institute of science, the National Academy of Sciences.
CICERONE: I can’t think of anybody who I would say is better than Hansen. He might argue that there’s two or three others as good, but nobody better
PELLEY: And Cicerone, who’s an atmospheric chemist, said the same thing that every leading scientist told us.
CICERONE: Climate change is really happening.
PELLEY: So what is causing the changes?
CICERONE: Well, the greenhouse gases. Carbon dioxide and methane and chloro fluoro carbons and a couple of others – which are all, the increases in their concentrations in the air are due to human activities. It’s that simple.
PELLEY: But if it is that simple, why do climate science reports look like this after they’ve been edited at the White House? With science labeled “not sufficiently reliable.†It’s a tone of scientific uncertainty that the president set in his first months in office after he pulled out of a global treaty to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
BUSH: We do not how much our climate could or will change in the future. We do not know how fast change will occur, or even how some of our actions could impact it.
PELLEY: That ambiguity annoyed Hansen, so he went public a year and half ago saying this about the Bush administration in a talk at the University of Iowa.
HANSEN: I find a willingness to listen only to those portions of scientific results that fit predetermined, inflexible positions. This, I believe, is a recipe for environmental disasters.
PELLEY: Ever since he said that, NASA’s been keeping an eye on Hansen. NASA let us sit down with him, but only with a NASA representative taping the interview. Other interviews have been denied.
HANSEN: And I object to the fact that I’m not able to freely communicate via the media. National Public Radio wanted to interview me, and they were told they would need to instead interview someone at NASA headquarters. And the comment was made that they didn’t want Jim Hansen going on the most liberal media in the nation. So, I don’t think that kind of decision should be made on that kind of basis. I think we should be able to communicate the science.
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Brave brave man. There will be more Americans of honor coming out and speaking truth. These intelligent men and women have been fired, muffled or destroyed (as NeD likes to say) and we are all tired of it.
We will not listen to the lies any longer and neither will the true republicans. This administration has further alienated republicans from reality. They are all apologizing now and it is hollow.
I’m ready for November.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:01 pmLets hope the libs here take the lead and sell their SUVS and monster homes to lower their carbon footprint. Since they are sooo concerned about climate change. Oopps I forgot its all President Bushs fault.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:01 pmI don’t know that many of us “progressives” own Hummers.
Sure wish my truck was a 4 wheeler when I go up to the snow though.
on topic – why are we not surprised bushco prefers lying to the public?
March 20th, 2006 at 12:05 pmActually I expect Kerry to remind us that the SUV in his driveway belongs to Terezzzza and not him.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:05 pmDoesn’t this sound eerily like the complaint that IAEA Weapons inspectors couldn’t find out the truth from Iraqi scientist because they weren’t allowed to speak to them without “handlers” from Saddam’s government ministries. Looks like we have our own “Republican Guard” to deal with.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:05 pmThese are not the ecological nightmares we are looking for, drive on…
March 20th, 2006 at 12:11 pmtrolls – the point of this thread is that YOUR leader spreads lies to the public to cover for his corporate cronies.
Stop trying to make this a democrats are bad thread. At least we don’t lie about the footprint we leave. Try addressing why YOUR leader chooses to lie to YOU.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:12 pm“Actually I expect Kerry to remind us that the SUV in his driveway belongs to Terezzzza and not him. ”
Comment by Ben — March 20, 2006 @ 12:05 pm
Along with his 5 mansions
March 20th, 2006 at 12:13 pmKindness, no you just try to get the gov to force a lifestyle change on the rest of us.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:16 pmwho cares? Rapture is coming soon.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:17 pm#7 – You’re wasting your breath. “Troll” has made up his mind, and the facts will not make a difference to his opinion.
He’s been given his talking points and told what his opinion should be, and he’s not going to be changing it just because someone is telling the truth about the Pres. Bush modus operandi on “attacking the messenger” when they don’t parrot your mendacity.
Because the neo-con Republicans are so pro-big-business and anti-environment, the only way they can change the rhetoric is to point out that failures of the Democratic Party. Rather than address the beam in their eye, they’re too busy pointing out the splinter in ours.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:18 pm6% of the worlds poulation are American and you produce 30% of worlds greenhouse gases
So everybody lets boycott american industrial goods …………..
March 20th, 2006 at 12:18 pmDon’t you love it that, there was a Government “minder” on hand to make sure the interview didn’t get out of hand? Come on you Republican Trolls! Open your eyes and see what’s going on? Saddam used to have government minders to monitor interviews. Now we do!
If we continue to turn a blind eye to scientific evidence, then we will be left behind the rest of the world! Wake up!
March 20th, 2006 at 12:19 pm#9 You mean like the forced lifestyle change that Pres. Bush is forcing on the rest of the nation by saying “Hey, big business, go ahead and pollute like there’s no tomorrow! We won’t mind, because by the time you destory the air we breath, we’ll be dead and won’t care anymore!”
March 20th, 2006 at 12:20 pmOK, got my fatuous comment out of the way, on to something more substantive.
Having read both of Jared Diamond’s most popular works, ‘Guns, germs and steel’ about how Europeans used their gift for killing people in large numbers to dominate the world up until they self-destructed in civil war in the first half of the 20th Century and more importantly ‘Collapse’ about how supposedly enlightened civilizations commit ecological suicide, I find myself little surprised by the approach of ecological night caused by human impact on climate.
The image that stucks with me is that of the man who chopped down the last tree on Easter Island, dooming him and his people to starvation. did he try to make a canoe of it to try and save himself and his family, or did he stoke up the fire, kill the next door neighbor and feast just one more time because the pain of hunger was too much.
What will be the thought of that person at the pump when the gasoline stops flowing out?
March 20th, 2006 at 12:20 pmCome on – which is more important – making money or the enviroment. We don’t need things like air to survive as long as we have money.
Jamie
March 20th, 2006 at 12:20 pmhttp://www.intoxination.net
Yeah thats right I hate the earth and the white house just emailed me my opinion like the communist society sent you yours.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:22 pmGeorge HW Bush – Earth summit 1992
“The American way of life is not negotiable”
Yes, you are correct, but not quite the way you think….
March 20th, 2006 at 12:26 pm“Lets hope the libs here take the lead and sell their SUVS and monster homes to lower their carbon footprint. Since they are sooo concerned about climate change. Oopps I forgot its all President Bushs fault.”
Well, let’s see….. The government has one of the largest fleet of cars. I think that if they were serious about the climate, that they would mandate that all cars from here on out MUST be a hybrid! Excluding those vehicles that require large amounts of power, such as SUV’s.
“no you just try to get the gov to force a lifestyle change on the rest of us.”
WHAT! You are freeking insane! Since when is it about the governement forcing lifestyle changes on you for something like this???? So it’s OK for the government to impose lifestyle changes on the rest of us as long as it suites you? I don’t particularly care for the fact that the government is trashing my Constitution, but people like you give King George this power. I don’t hear you complaining about the fact that the government can enter your house without your knowing it, called sneek and peak, but this is OK with you.
Get a clue troll!
March 20th, 2006 at 12:26 pm#2 No SUV here, a small Ford Contour – 8 years old and no air conditioner because it uses more gas. This vehicle is used by 3 people and I and my significant other ride the bus to and from work as it is offered free by the city if you work downtown.
You should try the bus, troll, it will be good for you to get a little exercise, save money and gas and help strengthen our nation and stop sucking it dry. Can you say the same?
FYI, I saw another Bush bumper sticker come down. And guess what, it was on an SUV, which is where I see most of them.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:27 pm#17 – Well at least your admitting the truth about being told what to think, there Mr. Troll.
By the way, when do you think I became a communist? Was it before or after I spent four years in the US Army? I shot your talking point down, so you’ve got to turn to your standard attacking points. Too bad for you that they just don’t work anymore.
Let me guess, you didn’t serve a day in your life, did you? Most likely not. Most neo-con trolls are pro-war, but chicken haws when it comes to returning service to the country.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:28 pmWhat’s with the trolls and the communism thing? Dude, that was SO yesterday. Get better insults will ya’ already?
March 20th, 2006 at 12:29 pmI’m not a communist. But I do have several Socialist leanings. health care, Social Security, educating our children. You trolls would be surprised to see how socialist you are as well.
Having said that, why would you think communism scares us? That’s a cry you use on the righy sites to stir up trouble.
Bush lied, & unfortunatly good GI’s (and Iraqi’s) died.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:29 pm#21 Just like the article on Raw Story, whiny insecure kids grow up to be republicans. I see they are still whiny and insecure.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:30 pm#20 – A pro-big-government, anti-environment troll ride the bus? They’d have to care about the air they breath to do that, and it aint gonna happen in my lifetime!
Don’t forget who it was who gave us the highest level of pollution from big-business and the fewest number of fines for big-business failing to adhere to the lowest standards available: Pres. Bush
March 20th, 2006 at 12:31 pmOh, truth, schmooth.
-George W. Orwell-Bush
March 20th, 2006 at 12:31 pmToo bad Carl is still not with us because he could set the record straight.
Though Dr. Sagan is one of the most frequently cited experts on atmospheric issues by the media, his predictions are often wrong. For example, at the outset of the Persian Gulf War, Sagan warned that if Saddam Hussein delivered on his threat to set fire to Kuwait’s oil wells, so much black soot would be sent into the stratosphere that sunlight would be blocked and a variation of the “nuclear winter” scenario would occur. Hussein followed through on his threat and by the close of the war over 600 wells were on fire. But the fires had little environmental or climatic effect beyond the Gulf region and virtually no ill effects globally.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:32 pmThe “government minder” was just amazing. Just like the reports from Iraq before the war. Saddam had “minders” for the press. Like the old Soviet Union. Like Cuba’s Castro. Or Syria.
Bush has become the authoritarian leader he claims to loathe.
We become what we think about.
-GSD
March 20th, 2006 at 12:35 pmTroll order # 1.
Never reason, always attack.
Had a Democrat or a liberal mentioned George W. Bush’s mansion or Bill Frists’ mansion–that would have been immediately attacked as “class warfare”.
As the group in power, the Bush Republicans still never have to be accountable. The moment any issue is brought up, they simply find some liberal to attack and commence firing.
Classic fascism, always attack and never apologise or show weakness.
America is fast becoming a totalitarian nation.
Heckuva job.
-GSD
March 20th, 2006 at 12:38 pmWhy should he be LET on the most progressive radio show in the country?
Maybe because someone their will ask the right questions and allow him time to answer the questions fully. Oooh…that sounds horrible….unamerican even.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:40 pm#22, strange that communism taunt. The Soviet Union (admittedly as a Stalinst, rather than a true communist nation) screwed it’s environment up worse than any other industrial nation on the planet. It tends to be liberal democracies with solid controls on industry that do best on the environment and before anyone celebrates Nixon’s embrace of the Clean Air Act, remember his popularity was next to Chimpy;s when he did it.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:41 pmBeing for a cleaner enviroment, I choose to drive a vehical, that gets good gas mileage. It is a common misconcetption among the right wing, that all Liberals are hypocrites, because they drive the same SUV’s as the wingers. However, I am planning on buying a new car soon, and my choice is the Honda Civic, I like the car, and it gets really good gas mileage. I could afford an SUV if I wanted one, but since gasoline is not likely to drop below $2.50 a gallon, I don’t want a gas guzzler.
I also live a “small” lifestyle. I don’t live in a huge house, I recycle as much as possible. I don’t waste resources etc. It is amazing to me how little conservatives ever seem to want to conserve. The whole point to conservation is to use less, not more.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:44 pmNeocons putting politics, religion, and greed before hard science. Why am I not surprised?
March 20th, 2006 at 12:50 pmHANSEN: In my more than three decades in the government, I’ve never witnessed such restrictions on the ability of scientists to communicate with the public.
How much evidence does the Average American need to understand that the Bush Administration does not care about the Constitution, or our rights?
I’m tired, as a Science teacher, of having to tip-toe around religion when organized religions don’t respect Science.
I knew his State of the Union speech on advancing science and math is the public education system was another big fat lie. But when will the rest of this country catch on?
March 20th, 2006 at 12:50 pmDoesn’t freedom of speech apply to scientists to? Who can prevent this guy from going on the air and speaking truth? Can he be fired for being a good scientist? I don’t understand why he doesn’t just go on NPR anyway.Or better yet, Pacifica – the real most liberal media, NPR has lost most of its teeth lately.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:53 pmall the trolls will be eating there words next hurricane season coming
there is a delayed effect on climate change the pollutants now will create the bad weather in 12 years
March 20th, 2006 at 12:54 pmi actually watched this interview. interesting to say the least. and i believe it.
http://www.HAARP.com—–informing.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:57 pmSuperstitious fundie kooks are just at war with reality on a whole host of subjects.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:58 pmFor those Trolls who did not view this last night – Hansen is not a liberal – he is independent. He said that the Clinton administration requested that he make his research look more dire than events actually were at the time, he refused. Unlike the Bush administration however, the Clinton administration never edited his research papers.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:01 pm#35 – according to the piece that aired last night, they can be fired or their careera placed in serious jepardy. Many have left and are now speaking out.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:03 pm#32 Civics run forever and are good reliable vehicles. That is how progressives shop for cars, as opposed to the republican values of “do I look good in this and will everybody assume I am rich?”
I really like the Subaru Forresters if one needs a 4 wheel drive, and the Outback’s are roomy too. Well, roomier than you would think and it has that GREAT 4wd.
Good luck on the car; here’s hoping for you a good deal.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:04 pmYou are so eager to demonize Bush you cant hear a legitimate criticism and do some self examination. Who is infantile? You are allmost all megaconsumers who are just as responsible for the polution of the earth as the next guy. Why dont you change your life if you are so convinced that we are destroying the earth. Practice what you preach. Teach each other a new way. Get over your obsessive hate of Bush and make a positive difference.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:04 pm#42 Who are you posting to? Most of here clearly exhibit much more control of our spending and as progressives, we care about the other guy as well as ourselves.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:06 pmAgain, Bush and the Bush Republicans always had a soft-spot for authoritarian-right leaders. They are becoming just like the Shah of Iran or Augusto Pinochet.
America is slipping into the soft-dictatorship that will gradually get more sever as the need to control the population grows.
Sandra Day O’Connor warned of dictatorship. Tom Delay tells her to fuck-off.
Nice Christian bunch.
-GSD
March 20th, 2006 at 1:07 pm“You are allmost all megaconsumers who are just as responsible for the polution of the earth as the next guy.”
Nice assumptions asshole. The left has been at the forefront of the conservation movement, recycling, renewable energy. Fat, druff addicted Rush Limbaugh is the one who has been saying to the cheers of corporate consumer advocates that there is no energy crisis, that everyone should use SUV’s and that calls for conservation were tantamount to communism.
Why don’t you go and preach some moderation and restraint over at Redstate or Free Republic.
-GSD
March 20th, 2006 at 1:10 pmDrug—not druff addicted..Although if there was a drug called druff =, I am sure that fat and childless junkie would have tried it.
-GSD
March 20th, 2006 at 1:11 pm#42 if you had bothered to read my post #32 you would see that my lifestyle is consistant with consuming less, and being kinder to the enviroment. You are to busy attacking liberals to bother to read anyones posts.
Pointing out that Bush ignores hard science in favor of his “gut reaction” is not demonizing him. I don’t need to demonize him. He does a great job of showing his own incompotence. I really do believe that Bush would be a swing shift manager at a taco bell if it wasn’t for his family connections.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:12 pm“Why don’t you go and preach some moderation and restraint over at Redstate or Free Republic.”
-GSD
Comment by Granite State Destroyer — March 20, 2006 @ 1:10 pm
Its obvious you have a problem with moderation and constraint so I figure Ill stay here and educate the ignorant.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:12 pmBush suppresses the TRUTH in so many ways.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:13 pm#42 Troll says “I know I am, but what are you?”
It’s not about anyone else sonny, it’s about how the government controls the facts reaching the public to further the ends of its main sponsors in industry. What’s your solution, sonny?
March 20th, 2006 at 1:13 pmLike Clinton and the dems dont suppress truth. What a joke.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:16 pmIt never ends. Every day I wonder how the trolls are going to spin the next Bush SNAFU and every day I think they cannot possibly be able to spin_____(you fill in the blank, there are so many), but once again I am amazed with their never ending talent to try to lay the blame elsewhere.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:17 pm#35 i’ll tell ya who will stop it. bush and his whackers. it is a common theme in this admin. to whoever speaks out when on his watch, if not retired or resigned, gets whacked. they, (bushco) call it suicide or make depression a crime to get rid of those whistle blowers. plain and simple.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:18 pm#51 you obviously did not watch 60 minutes last night or read other posts here or you would have the answer to that.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:18 pmahh the clinton retort. This is not about Clinton. This is about a deliberate effort on the part of the Bush admin to change the scientific facts as reported by their own climate specialists.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:20 pmIts obvious you have a problem with moderation and constraint so I figure Ill stay here and educate the ignorant.
Comment by troll — March 20, 2006 @ 1:12 pm
Amazingly, this is the mindset as Bush. The nation is being run by a bunch of people with the logic of petulant 13 year olds.
Go fuck yourself. This is the world the Bush Republicans are creating. It is so full of the compassionate-Christian ethos, so full of God’s love.
-GSD
March 20th, 2006 at 1:20 pmNow I know why Bush every time he gets a chance he goes and attacks nature directly by cutting brush on his ranch, he just can’t stand it unless he is destroying nature in some form or another every day.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:21 pmOh please get real you think the dems are straight up with the public. Grow up.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:21 pmOh yes, I forgot that the order to invade Iraq was issued by Bill Clinton’s cock.
-GSD
March 20th, 2006 at 1:21 pmGSD you are so full of hate you need help.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:22 pmYou need a little JESUS.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:24 pmI sure didn’t like the ‘watch dog lady’ listening to everything he said….shades of communists in Mao’s day. On the same show about the sperm doner. What if a male and female mate with both having the same dad? I wonder if someone has already checked into this. It seems half brother and half sister mating might not mix.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:25 pm#59
March 20th, 2006 at 1:25 pmThere are probably more brains cells in Clinton’s member than the void between Chimpy’s ears. nice one by the way.
That is the first time I have mentioned religion but GSD has brought it up numerous times.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:26 pmI am guessing by trolls childish retorts, that he has nothing left to say at this point.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:28 pmComment by troll — March 20, 2006 @ 1:22 pm
Oops. Now it is the “hate” label. See, back in the 1994 elections, the Republicans were ‘angry white men’ and their anger and hate were justified. Now in order to neueter liberals and the left, the talking point is to simply label critics as full of “hate” and to ignore the arguments as coming from some “Bush haters”.
They do forget that after 9/11 Bush had 90% approval—-so apparently alot of folks gave Bush the benefit of the doubt. Now that MOST Americans cannot stomach Bush anymorem they are simply written off as “haters”. It is a nice fascist rhetorical game.
Ignore the “haters” they are irrational. Nope, don’t look at what Bush and the Bush Republicans have don, just ignore what the “Bush Haters” are pointing out.
Nice game troll. Isn’t it time for a DHS programming meeting? Maybe a quick session in th closet with Ken Mehlman or David Drier?
How about some “healthy” Hillary Hating? It is OK to “hate” Hillary, but don’t be critical of Dear Leader George W.
-GSD
March 20th, 2006 at 1:28 pmSorry nothing useful to say at this point.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:29 pmYou need a little JESUS..he said ‘blessed are the warmongers’?
Nope that was blessed are the peacemakers.
Why don’t you get some churching up and stop judging others.
-GSD
March 20th, 2006 at 1:29 pmDo these idiots in the White House think that when the oceans rise and the air is unbreathable their money will protect them?
What damn planet are they from?
March 20th, 2006 at 1:30 pmHi rush, I see your using ‘troll’ to post with. Jesus and Clinton is your ‘weapon’ of the day?…..yawnnnnnnnnnnn.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:31 pmWhat arguement? Oh the “a**hole arguement. That one certainly deserved an intelligent response.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:32 pmI think this is more the sympton of placing corporate rights above citizen rights. The republicans under their failed economic plan want us to believe that by favoring corporations we will have a great economy. Nevermind that this policy failed under Reagan, and is failing under Bush.
Can we start labeling the republicans as “barrow and spend”? At least under the “tax and spend” democrats shit got paid for.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:33 pmThat “fascist” arguement was brilliant too. You got me.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:35 pmWhat the radical-right conveniently forgets in the rhetoric wars about pollution is that individual citizens changing their consumption habits has an incredibly minor effect on the state of big-business and the massive pollution that they cause.
Does it help when some consumers use less gas and take mass transit? Of course it does!
Does it hurt when other consumers refuse to give up driving their 10 MPG gas guzzlers just because they can afford to pay $2.75 for premium gas? Of course it does!
The key point is that the radical-right must frame the argument in such a way that everyone on the pro-environment side MUST live in a cave and only use environment friendly products before they’ll admit that they just don’t give a crap about saving the environment beyond the next election cycle.
While the pro-environmentalists arguments tend towards the worst possible scenario (Global warming will melt the ice-caps and we’ll all die! Once we deplete the ozone layer, we’ll all die!) the anti-environmental arguments tend towards the best possible scenario (Global warming is only a theory! The ozone layer will fix itself!)
The worst that will happen if the pro-environmentalists are wrong is that pollution will be reduced and big-business will clean up their act.
The worst that will happen if the anti-environmentalists are wrong is that we’ll cease to exist as a species.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:38 pmAnf the “Rush arguement”. Where did you guys learn all these incredible debate strategies?
March 20th, 2006 at 1:38 pmTroll
I believe that I have refuted your arguments. you have retreated into name calling, and so has GSD.
This is a failure on both your parts. However you have not posted any logical arguments since your first post. you have simply posted the same tired rants we see continually here.
I will respond to post about the democrats spinning the truth. No one should do it. I personally am of the opinion that we need to toss both parties and try something different.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:39 pmRepublicans are incompetent criminals. Nixon? Bush? Reagan? Hey, Repubs, just accept the fact that your small govt., own your own healthcare party is a failure.
Just let the progressives take care of it all. We’ll take care of you!
March 20th, 2006 at 1:43 pmCommunist, umm ya, sure buddy.
Keep telling yourself that all those people who are against Bush are communists. I am sure it will make the pain of the national debt to communist China so much easier to bare.
The simple fact is that the world has just witnessed some serious fucking weather in 2005 with Katrina, and just now with Cyclone Larry in Australia (Who names these things? Come on, Larry? What is it, the Cyclone thats looking for love?) We need to actually start doing something about what we are doing to the enviroment or there isn’t going to be an enviroment left for us. It isn’t like we can just up and leave.
Currently America is the Number 1 polluter, and it is also the country which has done least about it. You wouldn’t even sign the Kyoto protocols. This is an issue which both Democrats and Republicans have failed on, but that DOES NOT MAKE IT ALRIGHT. Got it? If you robbed a bank and you said “But he did it too!” while pointing at someone else, you know what would happen? The other guy would get arrested – TOO. Maybe, just maybe it is time for a little bit of common sense to sink into American politics.
This issue is a major issue. It is a simple issue which we need to sort out, and all of this “But he did it too” doesn’t exactly mean much when the Republicans are the guys who are currently in power, and particularly when the Republicans have all three houses. It is something which we as a species have to, in the name of our continued survival, do something about.
Now, what can be done? I don’t know. My guess is that oil companies need to recieve less funding, and that research into viable energy sources needs to be stepped up. Bush, during his reign did the reverse of that. We also need to stop dicking around with the North Pole looking for oil and start preparing for the enviromental fallout which we are headed towards.
We need something akin to the space race, but this time with cheap, clean safe and viable alternatives to petrol as the target, we need it phrased as a quest, something for people to get behind. We don’t need the oil tycoons making out as though breathable air is somehow un-American.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:46 pmAl Gore said the Auto is the single greatest threat to mankind. lawnmowers emit allmost as much as cars. I think change of lifestyle goes far beyond that though. How we consume is as important. If people demand change by changing the way they consume corporations will respond in a big way. Its about money for everyone. If you dont buy it they will ask why and respond to you.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:46 pmTroll – now that was a great argument. Our city requires that our grass be a certain height. If you are over this height you will be ticketed. I can understand wanting the neighborhood to look good, but when you need to mow at least once a week, that is just wasteful.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:50 pm(al gore and the auto?)…ok,if you say so.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:53 pm“Al Gore said the Auto is the single greatest threat to mankind. lawnmowers emit allmost as much as cars. troll”
Were you born an idiot, or did you simply learn it.
1) The average american who commutes drives their car 1 hour a day.
2) They mow their lawn seldom
3) A large number of americans don’t have lawns, that do have cars
4) Every adult member of a household typically have a car, but there’s only one lawnmower
5) Many lawnmowers are electric, but few cars are
3) The carbon footprint of ‘cars’ is therefore SIGNIFICANTLY higher than that of lawnmowers.
And troll shows why republicans make bad scientists – they’re too retarded to put anything in scientific or numeric context.
Troll, you’re an idiot – and you can’t do simple math – you must be a republican.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:53 pm#79 The lawnmower is the single greatest threat to mankind? Quick, sell John Deere before it tanks.
Jules, take a stand for the environment won’t you? Troll is demanding that you show the market and government that you won’t take anymore – stop cutting your grass!
March 20th, 2006 at 1:56 pmhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4688000.stm
March 20th, 2006 at 1:57 pmCompanies, and corporations have done a terrible job of policing themeselves. Auto makers refused to place seatbelts in cars until legislation was passed that mandated seatbelts, until the rise of the labor union, companies often treated workers like slaves, with low wages long hours, and risky work environments. You are correct that companies will change if consumers force them too, but it is something that needs to be done together.
As I posted earlier, I live small, I recycle, and I drive a vehicle that gets good gas mileage and pollutes less. I have also advocated that we switch motor vehicles to using non-petroluem based products. for example bio-desiels, or alcohol fuels.
I think one of the biggest differences between progressives, and republicans is a social concious. I believe that my actions affect others, and I would prefer that we all live well. Republicans seem to have to concern for any but them selves. The “I have mine, and you can go die” mindset. I think that we need to recognize that our actions do affect others, and that we need to work together, not just in the US but world wide for the common good.
Before I get attacked as a loony peacenick, I would like to add that defeating men like Bin Laden, is important, but so is establishing social and economic justice world wide. I realize this would require changes to many middle eastern cultures, however those are culture changes, they cannot be applied by force.
March 20th, 2006 at 2:00 pmGet out a push mower. I do. Have a garden. I do. I am not a Bush lover or hater. I am frustrated with people who only bitch about the gov rather than take responsibility. Its allways Bush this and Bush that. It should be “Let there be clean air and let it begin with me.” But instead I hear the only people who allegedly care playing the blame game but doing nothing but putting hope in a pollitical victory that may or may not happen and if it does may or may not achieve the desired end.
March 20th, 2006 at 2:00 pmYou can pry my John Deere from my cold dead hands…
March 20th, 2006 at 2:07 pmscience schmience… stifling the truth shall set you free… God told me so…
March 20th, 2006 at 2:10 pm#86 – Just a quick question: were you as mad about the people who bitched, moaned and wailed about Pres. Clinton as much as you seem to be mad about those who are doing it to Pres. Bush?
Are you an equal opportunity “mad at” person, or does it only work one-way with you?
March 20th, 2006 at 2:14 pmWe become what we think about.
-GSD
If that is true then the repubs are very very gay.
March 20th, 2006 at 2:18 pm#84 Very good Tracy, now the multi nationals will go after the resources and destroy that area also………
March 20th, 2006 at 2:19 pm“Get out a push mower. I do. Have a garden. I do. I am not a Bush lover or hater. I am frustrated with people who only bitch about the gov rather than take responsibility. troll idiot”
And just like bush you ‘assume’ a lot, without any factual basis – just like the morons who tried to silence the scientists. You’re as much of a problem as bush is. How do you even know what our personal habits are. If you want to ‘affect’ someone, talk to I-RIGHT-I (your fellow reichwing troll) who drives a 5000 pound SUV. As for the habits of ‘progressives’, you assume a lot, with no proof, no facts, but a lot of assumptions. And you know what an ‘assumption’ always begins with don’t you? Give you a hint, it begins with the first 3 letters.
March 20th, 2006 at 2:21 pmtroll, Puhleeze…you aren’t so magnanimous that you are trying to educate us or cajole us to live a less polluting life.
Look at the balance of your posts. You have yet to address the central issue of the thread. You’ve accused many of the rest here of man things. You are trying to threadjack, you’ve been insulting and quite dumb about it. You’ve shown that you have contempt for those who don’t feel like you and you’ve shown pride in your own ignorance.
Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn. You are a troll and not worth any of our time or the bandwidth you take up.
God has to love you cause no one else does.
March 20th, 2006 at 2:21 pmBetter hold the government of that country responsible if that happens. Don’t let them in.
March 20th, 2006 at 2:29 pmRyan, troll is saving the earth with his pushmower. I think that really speaks for itself. If he is dealing with the same IQ as Bush, he better not wave while operating that machinery; I see an ugly accident waiting to happen.
March 20th, 2006 at 2:31 pmDem Soldier ,
It depended what they were mad about. I get angry at Bush too. But to pretend that the dems will do anything much different in regards to the climate is dreaming. If they did it would most likely wreck the economy which would bring back the republicans. Bottom line is people, conservative and demacrat alike, are primarily concerned with their own economic well being if environmental laws affect that then goodbye environmental laws. Gov is good for nothing but getting in the way and as I have said before I don’t want massive federal bureaucracy stripping me of freedom any more than I want massive conglomorates. The solution to one abusive master is not to run into the arms of another.
Krazny. Why constantly label people. I was wrong on the communist thing ok I was having fun. But consevatives are not as self centered as you would like to believe. We are not anti-environment but are often anti-environmentalists because of our perception of them as crazy freaks. Its not any more accurate than your perception of republicans. We see thing differently but we love our children too.
March 20th, 2006 at 2:34 pmRyan I live in CT a very liberal state and have eyes to see it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to notice the hypocracy.
March 20th, 2006 at 2:39 pmTroll,
I am going by what I have read posted on this board. You are not the only right of center to post here. I have not so far seen the usual crowd here today. I am have never said that you do not love your children. My statements are based on my observations. I have found that many right wingers do not seem to care for anything beyond their families and their half acre of heaven. I have seen many posts decrying paying taxes that help support social programs, like medicare, social security, and education benefits like pell grants. I would prefer that my taxes go to helping my fellow citizens, then to paying for a war in Iraq. I try not too make generalizations about people. I am not always succesful.
March 20th, 2006 at 2:46 pm#58- Alright, troll, I’ll say it. Democrats lie also. Happy now? So now that that is settled, perhaps you will enlighten us as to why it is that BushCo. alters scientific studies, with the intention of concealing the real information from the American people, and hiding vital information, that might interfere with their business goals, such as doing EVERYTHING they possibly can, to ensure the unfettered operations of their corporate cohorts. Free from annoying things, like environmental standards, for example. Safety standards, which BushCo. barely gives lip service. They just HATE to burden those huge corporations with rules and regulations that might cost them some money to comply with. No good. Of course, most of these fragile companies have to base themselves outside of the US, since they tend to get “The Vapors”, when faced with the prospect of having to pay taxes here!! Heaven Forbid!! All I am saying is, GWB should be addressing our issues as well. He helps coporations hold tight to as much of their money as they can, and then he shares the actual scientific data with us, then produces a realistic national healthcare system as well. We just want some “equal” opportunity goodies too. And hey, it’s cheaper than a “war”, you know?
March 20th, 2006 at 2:48 pm“Ryan I live in CT a very liberal state and have eyes to see it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to notice the hypocracy. Comment by troll”
Nor apparently does it take it spell ‘hypocrisy’. You’re not winning points on intellect, argument or observation skills.
A huge chunk of americans don’t realize that we’re facing global warming, because bush and his cronies silence science – the point of this thread, and something you seem witlessly incapable of realizing.
Your excuse is to hide your head and use a pushmower – how’s that working for you moron, have you changed the world with it yet?
The fact is we have to have public policy on this issue, and I would be screaming whether this was a republican or a democrat silencing science. You apparently prefer to attack the messengers in true dysfunctional alcoholic childhood syndrome.
Get over yourself, and do something useful, instead of being dead weight – idiot.
March 20th, 2006 at 2:50 pm“It depended what they were mad about. I get angry at Bush too. But to pretend that the dems will do anything much different in regards to the climate is dreaming. troll”
Hmmm… I seem to recall Clinton signing kyoto and working very hard for to convince the republican morons in congress to do more about global warming. And Gore has written books on the necessity of dealing with the environment and global warming.
Yet again in the absence of any evidence to support a claim, with clear evidence that refutes it, a republican troll makes retarded and obviously false statements. That’s what we call a LIAR troll.
“If they did it would most likely wreck the economy which would bring back the republicans. troll”
Hehe, ironic. The moron says take personal responsibility, then says action to help the environment would wreck the economy.
You’ve spoken like a true idiot, and exactly the sort of anti-science and anti-reason moron who works for bush. You aren’t left of anything, except left behind intellectually.
Your ‘assumption’ that doing things to improve the environment would be wrecking the economy, is as retarded as people that argued in the early 20th century that cars would wreck the economy because all of the horse stables and buggy makers would go out of business.
March 20th, 2006 at 2:57 pmNo Ryan I have not changed the world but at least I can have an adult conversation it is you who are attacking the messanger. It is you who are exhibiting the rage associated with adult child syndrom. But I forgive you.
March 20th, 2006 at 2:59 pmNew scientific study proves whiney, insecure children grow up to be conservative. The study has been conducted since the 1960s and was just released. Geez, I wonder what troll was like – I already know MizzWrong and Mighty Moron were this way, because they STILL ARE!!
March 20th, 2006 at 3:01 pm
#83 are you going to pay the fines for my not cutting my grass? I would love to take a stand for the environment but down here in Texas they will actually have someone from the city cut it and bill you for it.
I am not agreeing with what Mr. Troll says, but I am glad that he has stopped the name calling that so many trolls like to resort to. Now that he has refrained from that and is trying to have a debate, even if you are not finding merit in his arguement. Can you all refrain from attacking and perhaps return to informing?
March 20th, 2006 at 3:02 pm“No Ryan I have not changed the world but at least I can have an adult conversation it is you who are attacking the messanger. It is you who are exhibiting the rage associated with adult child syndrom. But I forgive you. Comment by troll ”
You’re projecting your own rage, I’m typing quite calmly – but that doesn’t change the fact you’re an idiot, who thinks having in adult conversation consists of ignoring the topic of discussion, accusing those you know nothing about of doing things you don’t know they do, and all the while pretending to be something you aren’t.
See moron, I speak to my audience. You came on this site acting like a child, and I treat you like one. It is you who is being the ‘whiney child’, just like the survey talks about – but in typical republican fashion you prefer to project your own weaknesses and failures on others.
For instance, I posted corrections on the economic and political outcomes of democrats based on past actions, and instead of responding to those FACTS, you say I have rage.
Now THAT’s funny coming from you, someone who’s clearly so wrapped up in rage that you feel compelled to come to a liberal site and attack people for working to do the right thing. That’s a ‘hypocrite’ my friend, and it’s even spelled correctly.
March 20th, 2006 at 3:04 pmTroll – my clan is from the NY/CT area. Family has had land in Fairfield County for 6 or more generations. I won’t go into where, it isn’t important.
CT is a very moderate state. I wouldn’t call them liberals. With the likes of the republican Senators you give the Union, Lowell Weiker, Lieberman… they are moderates because they are republicans. Oh, you say that Lieberman is a Democrat? No WAY! You’ve got to be kidding me? Maybe he filled out his election form wrong.
Anyhow, I like CT. I still visit my family up there when i go home for visits. But a state dominated by the insurance industry (Hartford), arms manufactureres (although a lot less of those than there used to be, be thankful for Sturm, Ruger) and god I hope Electric Boat stays around in Groton, you are going to have moderate to conservative, not liberal types.
Now, go take a day Skiing at Mohawk Mountain & wish I was there.
chao.
March 20th, 2006 at 3:10 pmBetter hold the government of that country responsible if that happens. Don’t let them in.
Comment by Tracy — March 20, 2006 @ 2:29 pm
That usually results in military action on the part of our government when the multinationals don’t get their way; see Iran 1954, Chile 1973, Vietnam 1954-1975, Panama 1989, Iraq 2002-present, Iran TBA, for some examples…..
March 20th, 2006 at 3:20 pmAnd the trolls use this article to fling insults and charges against the Democrats — they are so unable to face the fact that we are ALL inhabitants here and we are all responsible.
March 20th, 2006 at 3:22 pmThe Bush administration’s penchant for filtering and editing news reports and scientific reports that are adverse to their policies of enriching themselves is keeping necessary information from the public, disallowing them to make informed (and difficult) choices and pressuring our representatives to enact the proper legislation and provide safeguards for the future.
Added to this outrage, Bush&Co had a mindersit in on the interview — something we recently read about Saddam Hussein having done.
Troll, good for you on your pushmower, but we have a much bigger problem than one that pushmowers will solve. And the sooner we have government awareness, acceptance and efforts to resolve the problems – the better for the world. See, what I think you’re too stupid to realize, is that even if stopped using cars tomorrow, we may be too late with global warming. Your ‘personal responsibility’ speech is useless in that case, and it will require massive government and international efforts to deal with the severe climate change.
You’re worried about the economy today, but unless we plan, in a few years or decades the climate change could be so severe we have no economies to speak of – it’s called ‘collapse’ kiddo.
So while you twiddle your thumbs like a nitwit (just as those in the administration do), the world is getting a swirlie. Grow up, and realize you have an obligation to this society and our children. Don’t be such a fool.
Here’s from the DOE.
March 20th, 2006 at 3:27 pm#107
In what way did multi-nationals not getting their way have to do with those examples you cited?
March 20th, 2006 at 4:02 pmthe full 60minute segment and lots more info at crooksandliars…
March 20th, 2006 at 4:04 pmbe sure to read the update – Rep. Brad Miller is looking for more “instances of censoring, intimidating, blacklisting or whatever”…
#110 – Tracy, the 1953 coup in Iran was initiated as a response to the Iranians nationalizing British and US oil interests in Iran. Try reading ‘All the Shah’s Men’ for the history of the 1953 Iranian coup. It helps understand why the average Iranian is monumentally pissed off at the US today.
March 20th, 2006 at 4:12 pmHow are the ratings for “60 Minutes”??? I haven’t watched that tripe for years – since Jack Kervorkian committed on-air homicide. In fact, since Dan Blather got involved in the ‘04 election…I’ve stayed away from CBS. Now Mr. Aphrodite may watch it for some sport shows….is NASCAR and/or the NFL on CBS???
March 20th, 2006 at 4:31 pm#112
In what way did multi-nationals not getting their way have to do with those examples cited?
March 20th, 2006 at 4:35 pmSaw this last night!! Pissed me off!! Sounded like some fascist dictatorship controlling scientists, but its right here in the U.S.!! We have only 10 years to do something before we reach the critical “tipping point” of climate change! That scared the hell out of me! Americans should be just as enraged with this as they were with the ports deal! Do we want to see another Katrina people?? Hurricanes are getting fiercer damnit because of OUR emmisions of greenhouse gases! A category 5 cyclone just hit Australia! Connect the dots people!! In the big scheme of things global warming is a far greater threat to the world than terrorism is!! Wake up people!
March 20th, 2006 at 4:38 pmmighty aphrodite,
How are the ratings for “60 Minutes�?? I haven’t watched that tripe for years
Well that helps explain how you are so ignorant!
March 20th, 2006 at 4:39 pmIn what way did multi-nationals not getting their way have to do with those examples cited?
Comment by Tracy — March 20, 2006 @ 4:35 pm
Chile…ITT…Kisinger….Pinchotet, sort of ring a bell?
March 20th, 2006 at 4:42 pmAphro really, why all the excessive puncuation? I’m dying to know.
March 20th, 2006 at 4:44 pmThe bottom line…..
Bush has no qualifications to be a president, but we americans put him in power for two terms in a row!!! This is trully unvelievable.
The Bush administration is the worst EVER!!!!!
The rest of the word thinks so.
Now American is begining to realize so. Bush should be impeached.
March 20th, 2006 at 4:46 pmNow American is begining to realize so. Bush should be impeached.
Comment by Redo — March 20, 2006 @ 4:46 pm
No Bush should be made to stand in a corner for about 2 1/2 years for his infantile behavior,…but impeach the rest of them!
March 20th, 2006 at 5:03 pmWhere were you folks when Clinton was setting fires in waco or shooting babies in Ruby Ridge or surpressing free speech using RICO laws? Big government has a tendancy towards fascism no matter who is in charge. This is not suprising. What is suprising is that the same people who are complaining about it presently still want bigger government.
March 20th, 2006 at 5:05 pm“Where were you folks when Clinton was setting fires in waco or shooting babies in Ruby Ridge or surpressing free speech using RICO laws? Big government has a tendancy towards fascism no matter who is in charge. This is not suprising. What is suprising is that the same people who are complaining about it presently still want bigger government. Comment by troll”
Ah, now the Nazi comes out in full force. Instead of dealing with the failures at hand, the poor pathetic troll brings up unrelated, irrelevant and nonsense arguments to avoid admitting the failures at hand. And to excuse himself for not doing anything, he uses the excuse that democrats didn’t do anything for his ‘pet interests’, like the anti-abortionists who murder doctors under the guise of ‘free speech’.
Yeah, this is the typical troll. Off topic, off his rocker, and inept.
Once again Troll Moron, you demonstrate why republicans are whiners as children (see recent study), and even bigger whiners as adults. You justify your failures by claiming others failed before – how ‘adult’ of you – NOT.
Grow up child.
March 20th, 2006 at 5:15 pm“How are the ratings for “60 Minutesâ€??? I haven’t watched that tripe for years – since Jack Kervorkian committed on-air homicide. In fact, since Dan Blather got involved in the ‘04 election…I’ve stayed away from CBS. Now Mr. Aphrodite may watch it for some sport shows….is NASCAR and/or the NFL on CBS??? Comment by mighty aphrodite ”
Hehe, why would you care what ratings are, otherwise you’d worry about O’Leilly’s and Hannity both tanking. Or you’d worry about all of those ‘polls’ where your party is as unpopular as you were in high school.
And I see you have no problem with ‘Faux’ news and O’Leilly getting involved in the election with false claims, and the Smear Boaters.
And Mighty Moron, did you miss the study that just came out today that shows Conservatives tend to be ‘whiners’ and ‘insecure’ as children – you prove this never changes no matter how old you get.
March 20th, 2006 at 5:18 pm#118
My question was more to the point of whether the U.S. engaged in the Chiliean coup strictly interests of ITT or was it just part of the global Cold War being fought against the Soviets with their unrelenting attempts to spread communism around the world, which we all know is a failed system.
http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-12696.html
March 20th, 2006 at 5:27 pmThis response is a bit late because I was away from this thread for a long bit:
March 20th, 2006 at 5:28 pm#82 – RN,
troll assumes that every power mower is being used by a lawn service company. He probably releases more green house gasses cutting his lawn by hand than he would with a gas or electric device. You know the sequence – inhale, exhale, fart, belch.
#86 – troll,
How’s your garden growing? I am getting enough veggies and greens out of mine to make the green grocer unnecessary – like for the last two weeks or so. Tomatoes and eggplant are still a few weeks out. Bananas are starting to come in. I live in FL though, slightly longer growing season than CT.
It was for Alende’s nationalising ITT assests in that country, along with others.
March 20th, 2006 at 5:38 pm#125, well, I can’t comment on the Chile business connection, I know little of it, but I would have though that overthrowing an elected government and installing a murderous fascist dictatorship is a morally wrong and ultimately self-defeating (as in Iran and Chile) policy whether its for IBM, ITT, BP, Exxon or using the Cold War as an excuse.
March 20th, 2006 at 5:39 pm#127 ah, thanks Clif, what about Panama and Vietnam? Before my arrival in the Western Hemisphere – although I’d never heard of 400 innocent people being killed in a drug arrest until Panama.
March 20th, 2006 at 5:41 pmPanama was because George Bush’s 41 man Noriega got out of hand and wouldn’ty take orders. He fronted for the Reagan administration in the 80’s aiding the contras after the congress cut off funds. Noreiga also was complicient in the CIA’s drug trade of the 80’s. By 89 he grew a pair, slammed Bush41 in speeches and actions and Bush slapped him down for it. Given we had some serious military bases there(I did jungle warfare school in 79 at Ft Sherman) taking control of the country and getting Noriega was a fore gonr conclusion as soon as they went after him.
March 20th, 2006 at 5:49 pmI like the suggestion of Boycotting American Products, except that America doesn’t produce anything anymore. Except Big Pick-ups (a big world market for those) and Microsoftware. You have to look long and hard to find a product not “Made in China”.
The greatest social experiment in history has “lost it’s Moral Focus” The Land of the Free is now a Police State. God Bless America. Is that ironic, or what?
March 20th, 2006 at 5:54 pmAh, not the first CIA asset to be head of state and toppled by his handler, and probably won’t be the last. So is it credible to argue that the herion trade from SEA was a cause or an effect of the Vietnam involement?
March 20th, 2006 at 5:56 pmWalt
I assume no such thing. however methane emissions do indeed contribute to the greenhouse effect. I envy your growing season. The point is we are not cutting as much grass, maybe cutting down on transportations emissions and we have the added benifit of it drawing us back to the earth.
RHC
I was on topic for once this thread. What it’s not on topic if I’m not agreeing with you?
Your unenlightened speech reeks of the fascism you acuse me and President Bush of exercising. Most of those charged under RICO were not guilty of anyhing other than peaceful protest and the supreme court recently struck down his use of it to supress their rights as unconstitutional.
Ryan
Thanks for more insults, they just bring so much to the conversation. I would rather die a free man than live under the brutal tyranny which will surely come if we are not vigilant and do not control this monster we call government. I hope we can have grassroots movement to address the climate issue for two reasons. First it would yield more immediate results. Second it would not empower rhe monster.
Buy the way you made a grammatical error in your last post should I be all over you for that?
March 20th, 2006 at 6:12 pmPeace
Terry Vietnam is a study of idelogical stupidity trumping both good stragitic and foriegn policy, it started with the US trying to prop France up after WW2 with aiding them to reestablish their colony of French Indochina. When that failed they genisuses in the CIA and DOD decided to fight the indiginous leaders who had helped defeat the japanese and had just defeated the French. They proped up a dictator that might have even made Saddam blush andnever actuallyasked what are their real stragitic goals that makes vietnam so important, they just slowly sunk into the quicksand until the were directally confronted at the gulf of Tonkin after a raid on North Vietnam by Cia and Marine assests covered by the US Navy. Given the incident the preowar hawks got Johnson to ask congress for a resolution which they turned into the premission to eventually base 550,00 US troops in the fight and when TET showed the plan as untenable westmorland asked LBJ to double the American committment which Johnsobn wouldn’t do and the shift to vietnamisation had begun.
In some ways we are near that stage in Iraq where the military brains that be are pushing for Iraq to stand up so we can stand down, rings like the old vietnamisation policy.
But since neither Vietnam had nor does Iraq have the logistical capability to support their army, neither do the have the Air assests or the industrial base to support the army we are standing up either we prop it up with all the support it needs or the Iraq Army will suffer the same fate as the South Vietnam Army did after congress cut off funding in 1974.
March 20th, 2006 at 6:13 pmRemember, it’s religion, religion, religion. God has been proven, and science is just a bunch of made up crap. Back to fundementalism and feudalism.
March 20th, 2006 at 6:51 pmWhere do you guys come up with this crap? You create a strawman out of the religious belief of some and us it to discredit the whole. Its only working on making the extreme element of the left crazier and the left less palatable to middle America.
March 20th, 2006 at 6:58 pmYesterday, 60 Minutes aired a powerful segment documenting how the Bush administration has muzzled the government’s top global warming researcher, James Hansen.
I don’t see any anti religious bias there so you are making your comment up:
You create a strawman out of the religious belief of some and us it to discredit the whole. Its only working on making the extreme element of the left crazier and the left less palatable to middle America.
Or better said you are a hypocrit doing what you accuse us of…………………hypocrit, sort of like those chickenhawks wgho call for war when they did and don’t fight themselves…………..hypocrit, like the repugs who call for fiscal diciplin and spend faster than those they demonise………….hypocrit, like the congress decrying the Clinton Administration of being corupt while running the K street shakedown………….hypocrit ..hypocrit…hypocrit, why are all you on the right so good at it?
March 20th, 2006 at 7:12 pm“Where do you guys come up with this crap? troll”
Good question, you should ask yourself that one, and why you can’t stay on topic – perhaps ADD, or just KKK.
Either way, grow up strawman, because this entire post IS a strawman on your part.
See ‘fascism’ is rightwing you retard, and ‘communism’ is left wing. You calling a leftie a ‘fascist’ is utterly retarded, just like everything else you post.
And your idea of ‘grassroots’ is retarded, because this blog is exactly that you fool. It’s a grassroots effort to change our government, and unlike your FASCIST view of the world, the goverment IS US, and therefore MUST listen to us, whether they like it or not.
You really need to wake up, and stop being such an idiot.
“Buy the way you made a grammatical error in your last post should I be all over you for that? troll”
Help yourself, it’s a problem with typing too fast, my brain gets ahead of keys – but at least I can spell basic english. Buy a dictionary, or use a free one.
March 20th, 2006 at 7:15 pm“Its only working on making the extreme element of the left crazier and the left less palatable to middle America. Comment by troll”
The funniest thing is you simultaneously play BOTH roles, the extreme left, and the extreme right, without having a half a brain between either roles.
Fool.
March 20th, 2006 at 7:16 pmKeep telling yourself this stuff Ryan they will be hauling you to the loony bin soon.
Clif did you bother to read the comment bedore mine. Take a look you may learn something.
March 20th, 2006 at 7:23 pm#126
and the others?….
The Soviets having military advisers and in Peru along with being the major military hardware supplier to leftist Genreal Alvarado who ousted democratically elected Fernando Belaúnde Terry was not a cause for U.S. concern?
March 20th, 2006 at 7:23 pmThat comment was sarcasm if you can’t tell that you are not a hypocrit but a dumb hypocrit…..
March 20th, 2006 at 7:29 pm#133
Would North Vietnam been able to suceed in getting the U.S. to pull out of South Vietnam if it weren’t for the financial and military backing of the Soviets? SUPPOSEDLY without other state sponsored backing of the insurgents in Iraq, will that be enough of a significant dfifference so that Iraq will not become another Vietnam?
March 20th, 2006 at 7:32 pmHey Ryan try loking up Fascism and you will dicover that I used the term appropriately.
From dictionary.com
fas·cist
March 20th, 2006 at 7:32 pmn.
1)often Fascist An advocate or adherent of fascism.
2)A reactionary or dictatorial person.
#140 I posted about Chile, not Peru if you look at a map they actually are seperate South American countries not corporate states…. but given your reich wingnut bias I am not suprised you couldn’t tell the difference…
March 20th, 2006 at 7:33 pm“Keep telling yourself this stuff Ryan they will be hauling you to the loony bin soon. Troll”
Something tells me you’re an expert – your cognitive dissonance is probably a lifelong affliction based on your reactionary and hysterical inability to process basic facts and arguments.
As for your retarded argument.
The American Heritage Dictionary instead describes Fascism as “A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism.”
Troll, you need a better dictionary, maybe that’s why you keep screwing up so bad, and looking so stupid.
And you’re the moron who came here and ‘dictated’ that we should give up and allow king george to ‘dictate’ his NeoNazi policies. You aren’t anti-fascist, you are in fact part of the fascist and autocratic government apparatus, whether you intend to be or not.
You can ‘disent’ all you want, but I can call you a fool for being one – that’s also free speech, idiot.
March 20th, 2006 at 7:41 pmNo different factions in Iraq have the backing of different elements out of the middle east, the sunni’s have the Saudis and Al Quaeda element, the religious fundementalists shiites like Al Sadar have Iran but given the fact that we are basing the Iraqi military on the British-US model then they need the logistics and air power or they are sitting ducks just as the soviets were in Afghanistan were through out the 80’s. Given that fact and the fact that the Iraqi military have no air assests or logistical capability either in their military or industrial base they will have to continue tyo rely on the support of the americans for a while. They latest ‘Air Assult” campaign shows this fact in spades even though the soldiers on the ground were 700 Americans to 800 Iraqi all the Air support , logistical and heavy artillery and armor assests were US, thus it was an Iraqi face on an US controlled mission…..
March 20th, 2006 at 7:42 pmSorry Clif I get it now. Thank you.
March 20th, 2006 at 7:44 pmNo problem if I can help a troll to learn I am more than willing to help….
March 20th, 2006 at 7:47 pmSure you can ignore the facts all you want but who is the fool? We were discussing the word fascist not fascism but not to wrorry we understand your simply a mental midget. You wil discover it reads the same in the American Heritage Dictionary. Have a nice night.
March 20th, 2006 at 7:53 pmI know its you’re. gnight
March 20th, 2006 at 7:59 pmSixty Minutes runs a story on the top scientist warning of global warming, and we get one troll complaining about CBS, and we get another troll asking about FBI/Waco. Why can’t they simply argue, without going off topic – is it because they have no argument? It’s hard to argue intellectually against scientific proof when your party’s talking points are ignorant and not to be challenged.
March 20th, 2006 at 8:08 pmActually, one would think they would know by now that Dem/Libs are not shy about criticizing their own or disagreeing with them, unlike the Rep/Cons who march and think in lockstep, following their leader. They mistakenly assume that we approve of all things happening under Democrats, because they project their own behavior of defending their party, right or wrong on to the rest of us.
Merriam-Webster defines fascism as “a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition”
The American Heritage Dictionary instead describes it as “A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism.”
Fascism is associated by many scholars with one or more of the following characteristics: a very high degree of nationalism, economic corporatism, a powerful, dictatorial leader who portrays the nation, state or collective as superior to the individuals or groups composing it.
Some expressions of fascism have been closely linked with religious political movements. This combination is referred to as Clerical fascism, a prime example of which is the Ustashe in Croatia.
Contemporary, meaning after World War II, fascist movements and allegations of neofascism are covered in a number of other articles:
See: Neo-Fascism; Neo-Nazism; Neofascism and religion; Fascism and ideology;Christian Identity; Creativity Movement; Ku Klux Klan ; National Alliance; Nouvelle Droite; American Nazi Party; Alain de Benoist; William Luther Pierce; George Lincoln Rockwell; Producerism.
A fascist is one who espouts or adhears to the idea of fascism….see above.
March 20th, 2006 at 8:09 pm“Sure you can ignore the facts all you want but who is the fool? We were discussing the word fascist not fascism but not to wrorry we understand your simply a mental midget. You wil discover it reads the same in the American Heritage Dictionary. troll”
And now we see why ‘retarded’ was an accurate description for the troll. Fascists practice fascism, duh!!!
A mental micron, should never call someone else a mental midget.
Moron!
March 20th, 2006 at 8:18 pmhttp://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fascist its easier this way.
March 20th, 2006 at 8:27 pmYes troll I listed that along with definitions from American Hetitage, what you are missing is the fact that historically a fascist has been supported by the radical right and opposed to the left,m thus a fascist-communist is a contridiction in terms…..
March 20th, 2006 at 8:37 pmhttp://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=28083&dict=CALD
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/fascist.html
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fascist
http://www.bartleby.com/61/58/F0045800.html
pick any one.
March 20th, 2006 at 8:37 pmI am aware of that thank you. Is he admitting he is a communist?
March 20th, 2006 at 8:39 pm“Fascism, which was not afraid to call itself reactionary… does not hesitate to call itself illiberal and anti-liberal.”
_Benito Mussolini
He might be considered an expert on the subject if you will
March 20th, 2006 at 8:40 pmProbably not but since YOU are the one mis-applying the term he was just denying your mischaracterization of his views…. the world is also larger than the dichotomy that bushco tries to impart it being,
I am not a fascist but that does not automatically make me a communist either, I can intellectually reject both extremes…
March 20th, 2006 at 8:44 pmIt sure as hell would go a long way towards consensus if we knew who we were talking to. But the bolsheviks wont admit it most of the time.
March 20th, 2006 at 8:49 pmThe second definition has no relation to politics, so how am I “mis-applying the term”?
March 20th, 2006 at 8:56 pmNobody here advocates bolshevism in any of its current form. What this blog is about is really the first amendment rights of a scientist to tell the people who pay his salary all the truth. See it is not Bush’s money, congress’s money, nasa’s money butwe the tax payers money. So those who collect checks that say US Treasury stopping the tax payers from hearing the whole truth, which does no harm to the country, but which might change who gets some of the tax payers money, are both violating the oath of office to support and defend the constitution and the requirement to fully inform the tax payers all of the information that they paid for. Calling for complete disclosure by a government agency where national security is not at stake is 100% patriotic as well as proper and those who call for censure and shutting up the tax payer funded research from getting to those who paid for it are actually acting in a fascist mode.
March 20th, 2006 at 9:00 pm“It sure as hell would go a long way towards consensus if we knew who we were talking to. But the bolsheviks wont admit it most of the time. Comment by troll ”
The bolsheviks aren’t in charge, the Nazis are. And those of us in the middle are trampled.
See a ‘communist’ believes in a complete communal system and dismantling of private property. This is a fundamental tenent of Communism and why it never gained much of a foodhold in america. Most of the world has traditionally had very little private property, compared to the the US which has strong a tradition in private property and free enterprise.
The whole ’scare’ of Communism is retarded, because most americans would never give up their property – too many own their own.
But ironically the rightwing is perfectly expressed by the modern republican party which is as Neo Fascist as you can get.
America’s mainstream politics ranges from middle of the spectrum to far right. There is no significant ‘bolshevism’ in this country.
But as a mental micron, a retard, and clearly a Fascist/Nazi, I’m sure you will once again prove inadequate and incapable of facing reality. You’re taught to fear ‘commies’ as a Quixotic exercise in this country. It distracts americans from the real threat which is the extreme right.
Putz.
March 20th, 2006 at 9:02 pm“The second definition has no relation to politics, so how am I “mis-applying the termâ€? Comment by troll ”
And you forgot that the m-w dictionary has a fascist listed UNDER FACISM. – DUH, were you always this stupid, or did you have to work at it?
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fascist
One entry found for fascism.
Main Entry: fas·cism
…
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge>
Why is it that reichwingers are consistently so incapable of speaking functional english. Were you all home schooled, or are you just functionally illiterate? No wonder you hate the ‘elite’ educated on the left – you’re an illiterate fool!
March 20th, 2006 at 9:05 pmNow Troll STFU on the Fascism bit – you’re a fascist, you’ve already proven that, so stop playing Goebbels and for 5 minutes pretend that you care about our planet long enough to allow science to trump your idiotic political and religious bigotry!
IDIOT!
March 20th, 2006 at 9:06 pmThe term was coined for Mussolini and adapted to Hitler in Germany and Franco in Spain, given that it is loaded with political meanings and thus anyone who uses it without meaning to compare someone to Hitler, or Saddam who was a modern day fascist is being disingenous at best.
Otherwise they would have to claim historical ignorance but that is a claim of ignorance just the same…..
March 20th, 2006 at 9:06 pmRyan
As you are taught to fear the right and label them as you see fit and be totally blind to the failures of the left. The name calling is precisely the fascist behavior which I was refering to. You have not said an intelligent thing all day you simply scream out your obscene filled indignities to drown out anything anyone who opposes you has to say. When I demonstrate that you are wrong you simply ignore it and change the subject.
Clif,
March 20th, 2006 at 9:35 pmI appreciate the concern over the presidents action here but it is not news. Presidents on both sides have done this since the first days of the republic and no one was calling them fascists. nazis or the like. and America has not desended into the fourth Reich. The tone of the debate is well represented by the likes of Ryan who it seems has not an ounce of civility. James Hansen is an employee with an ax to grind it is not his place to have gone on 60 min. It is the presidents job to manage loose canons like him. Most of us as CEOs would keep a tight chain on him. It does not make Bush a nazi.
Clif
I am well aware of the political overtones of the word that does not dictake its usage.
Ryan
March 20th, 2006 at 9:43 pmYou quoted the passage which proved my position. Who is the idiot?
I meant to compare him in a sense to those figures not in his ideology but in his behavior.
March 20th, 2006 at 9:48 pmIndeed there are Socialist in America and plenty of them. Did any of you go to the anti war protests over the weekend? There were plenty. Many americans have socialist positions and don’t even know it.
March 20th, 2006 at 9:53 pmFirst of all you are being intellectually dishonest… James Hanson works for us tax payers and NOT Bush. Bush has through his minions tried very hard to HIDE the facts surrounding global warming because it is politically embarrassing to some of his biggest contributors and if the facts were honestly reported to all the American people those who Mr. Hanson actually works for then Bush’s policies would come under more scrutiny and would be rejected just as his diabolically retrograde policy initiative for social security was. He and those around him try to hide anything that might stand in their way for the steam rolling of the American populace. As far as for presidents doing this nobody has anywhere near to the extent of bush or Cheney, so that they have actually tried to reclassify documents that were declassified which bring a less than favorable light unto them.
Jim Hanson HAS EVERY right as an American citizen to go on 60 minutes if they want him to. He is not a loose cannon but some one who knows a HELL of a lot more about the subject than Bush, Cheney, or you ever will. Your terms of loose cannon and denying him the right by saying”James Hansen is an employee with an ax to grind it is not his place to have gone on 60 min. It is the presidents job to manage loose canons like him.” is consistent with a fascist point of view with respect to the rights of those you do not agree with. So Ryan is correct and you Mr. Troll if that is what you want to be known as ARE WRONG….deal with it.
Please read the post that d follows which will prove you are following in the fascist tradition of the radical right in this country
March 20th, 2006 at 9:56 pmWhat is Fascism? By Laura Dawn Lewis
This may surprise most educated people. One of the more common government strategies today, especially in developing regions is fascism. Fascism is commonly confused with Nazism. Nazism is a political party platform that embraces a combination of a military dictatorship, socialism and fascism. It is not a government structure. Fascism is a government structure. The most notable characteristic of a fascist country is the separation and persecution or denial of equality to a specific segment of the population based upon superficial qualities or belief systems.
Simply stated, a fascist government always has one class of citizens that is considered superior (good) to another (bad) based upon race, creed or origin. It is possible to be both a republic and a fascist state. The preferred class lives in a republic while the oppressed class lives in a fascist state.
More than a class system, fascism specifically targets, dehumanizes and aims to destroy those it deems undesirable.
Until the Civil Rights act of 1964, many parts of the US were Republic for whites and could be considered fascist for non-Caucasian residents. Fascism promotes legal segregation in housing, national resource allocation and employment. It provides legal justification for persecuting a specific segment of the population and operates behind a two tiered legal system. These two tiers can be overt as it was within Nazi Germany where Jews, Homosexuals, Catholics, Communists, Clergy and the handicap were held to one set of rules and courts, while the rest of Germany enjoyed different laws.
Or it can be implied and held up by consensual conspiracy, (people know it is wrong but do nothing to stop it or change it. Through lack of action, they give consent), as it was in the deep South for African Americans and others of color. In Fascism, one segment of society is always considered less desirable, sub-human or second class.
(Note: no single government is pure anything. Most have elements of several structures with one dominant structure). Below is the political definition and general characteristics of a fascist country. TOP
general characteristics
of a fascist country:
1. Fascism is commonly defined as an open terror-based dictatorship which is:
* Reactionary: makes policy based upon current circumstances rather than creating policies to prevent problems; piles lies and misnomers on top of more lies until the truth becomes indistinguishable, revised or forgotten.
* Chauvinistic: Two or more tiered legal systems, varying rights based upon superficial characteristics such as race, creed and origin.
* Imperialist elements of finance capital: Extending a nation’s authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political domination of one state over its allies.
Though a dictatorship is the most common association with fascism, a democracy or republic can also be fascist when it strays away from its Tenets of sovereignty. In the 20th Century, many Fascist countries started out as republics. Through the use of fear, societies gave up their rights under the guise of security. Ultimately these republics morphed into Fascist states.
2. Fascism is an extreme measure taken by the middle classes to forestall lower-working class revolution; it thrives on the weakness of the middle classes. It accomplishes this by embracing the middle-class’ love of the status-quo, its complacency and its fears of: TOP
1.Generating a united struggle within the working class
2. Revolution
3.Losing its own power and position within society
In a more simplistic term the people currently in control fear that if they allow equal rights and equal consideration to those being oppressed, they will become
oppressed and lose everything. Generally those in power are of a smaller segment of society, but they hold the wealth and control of key systems like manufacturing, law, finance and government position, (i.e. the slave owners in the south prior to the civil war) and the oppressed vastly outnumber them, (the slaves during the same period).
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In reality it is the oppressors’ fear of retribution by the oppressed that perpetuates fascism; for justification they dehumanize, demonize, strip them of rights, add new laws, restrict movement and attempt to control them by whatever means possible to prevent an uprising. It is very common in a fascist system to have the oppressed referred to as sub-human, animals, terrorists, savages, barbarians, vermin or any other term designed to create justification for the acts of terror and fascism perpetrated on the oppressed. Via dehumanization society can then accept that the oppressed are incapable of thinking or acting in a peaceful manner or taking care of themselves, and thus society is exonerated from culpability in their own minds. Propaganda, not persuasion, logic or law, is the tool of fascism, though at times very difficult to spot. It specifically rides the fact that negative behavior is innate, (born with) rather than a logical behavior in response to oppression. Propaganda also empowers the oppressors with elitism racially, socially, intellectually and/or spiritually.
The 7 conditions (Warning signs)
that foster & fuel fascism are:
1.Instability of capitalist relationships or markets
2.The existence of considerable declassed social elements
3.The stripping of rights and wealth focused upon a specific segment of the population, specifically the middle class and intellectuals within urban areas as this the group with the means, intelligence and ability to stop fascism if given the opportunity.
4. Discontent among the rural lower middle class (clerks, secretaries, white collar labor). Consistent discontent among the general middle and lower middle classes against the oppressing upper-classes (haves vs have-nots).
5.Hate: Pronounced, perpetuated and accepted public disdain of a specific group defined by race, origin, theology or association.
6. Greed: The motivator of fascism, which is generally associated with land, space or scarce resources in the possession of those being oppressed.
7.Organized Propaganda:
a) The creation of social mythology that venerates (creates saints of) one element of society while concurrently vilifying (dehumanizing) another element of the population through misinformation, misdirection and the obscuring of factual matter through removal, destruction or social humiliation, (name-calling, false accusations, belittling and threats).
b) The squelching of public debate not agreeing with the popular agenda via slander, libel, threats, theft, destruction, historical revisionism and social humiliation. Journalists in particular are terrorized if they attempt to publish stories contrary to the agenda.
3. Fascism dovetails business & government sectors into a single economic unit, while concurrently increasing in-fighting and distrust between the units fostering advancement towards war. TOP
4. a) Fascism promotes chauvinist demagogy, (appealing to the prejudices and emotions of the populace) by fostering selective persecution and accepted public vilification of the target group. It then promotes this a “patriotic”, “supportive” or “the party line” and disagreement with such as “anti-government”, “anti-faith” or “anti-nation”.
b) Fascism creates confusion through “facts”. It relies on junk science, revisionism, the elimination of cultural records/treasures and obfuscations to create its case and gain acceptance. Fascism can also combine Marxist critiques of capitalism or faith based critics of the same to re-define middle class perceptions of democracy and to force its issues, confuse logic and create majority consensus between targeted groups. This is also referred to as creating a state of Cognitive Dissonance, the mental state human beings are most easily manipulated. TOP
5. Both middle and upper-middle-class dictated democracy and fascism are class dictatorships that use organized violence (verbal or physical) to maintain the class rule of the oppressors over the oppressed.
http://www.couplescompany.com/Features/Politics/Structure3.htm
March 20th, 2006 at 9:56 pmI had college profs who openly admitted to being socialists. Where have you been?
March 20th, 2006 at 9:58 pmA socialist is the opposite of a fascist READ the article, better yet;
Fascists particularly loathed the social theories of the French Revolution and its slogan: “Liberty, Equality, Fraternity.”
*** Liberty from oppressive government intervention in the daily lives of its citizens, from illicit searches and seizures, from enforced religious values, from intimidation and arrest for dissenters; and liberty to cast a vote in a system in which the majority ruled but the minority retained certain inalienable rights.
*** Equality in the sense of civic equality, egalitarianism, the notion that while people differ, they all should stand equal in the eyes of the law.
*** Fraternity in the sense of the brotherhood of mankind. That all women and men, the old and the young, the infirm and the healthy, the rich and the poor, share a spark of humanity that must be cherished on a level above that of the law, and that binds us all together in a manner that continuously re-affirms and celebrates life.
This is what fascism as an ideology was reacting against_and its support came primarily from desperate people anxious and angry over their perception that their social and economic position was sinking and frustrated with the constant risk of chaos, uncertainty and inefficiency implicit in a modern democracy based on these principles. Fascism is the antithesis of democracy. We fought a war against it not half a century ago; millions perished as victims of fascism and champions of liberty.
http://remember.org/hist.root.what.html
March 20th, 2006 at 10:08 pmWho is Laura Dawn Lewis and what gives her the last word over five dictionaries.
He can go on 60 min if he wants I said he should not, it was not his place I did not deny him any rights nor would I. Read what I wrote before you label me. Having a right and exercising it are two very different things. Obviously he knows more about the issue than I or you for that matter but a president has reasons for his actions and it was not his place (or ours) to assume the reasons. The work he produced is subject to review by his superiors and if they find it objectionable that is their right as his superiors. If James Hansen suspected a law may have been broken it was then his duty to see that it was reported discretely. That would have been honorable what he did was political and there was no honor there.
March 20th, 2006 at 10:22 pmWho is Laura Dawn Lewis and what gives her the last word over five dictionaries.
She shows the historical perspective which I can see you do not like because it disproves your point and puts you in exactly the place you claimed Ryan Neat was. And dictionaries do not have the last word either when some Ideas require encyclopedias which Fascist and Fascism do in this context.
1. By saying it was not his place you either are the politically correct police or assuming rights that do not belong to you. Sort of the actions that are described as fascist by some.
2. It is exactly my my place to assume reasons when the president of the country does not explain his actions to the people he actually works for, which I AM ONE OF. And unless the Bush administration can explain the reasons for hiding scientifically solid results from studies which I helped pay for it seems to me to be protecting some that give the Bushco more than the American people and that is campaign contributions.
3, The law may or may not be broken I am not a lawyer but every American has the right to speak to the press unless they have signed a document which they agree to give that right up ( I should know I had to sign such a document in order to accept training and a position in the Army) So each persons actions to out something they believe is wrong goes to their personal belief system and obviously Mr. Hanson trusts the American people more than he trusts the Administration in this case since he took his complaints to them, which actually are his real bosses, no matter how you try ti spin it.
That would have been honorable what he did was political and there was no honor there.
Comment by troll — March 20, 2006 @ 10:22 pm
Are you also the arbitrator of honor now as well?
March 20th, 2006 at 10:39 pmGreat Clif I am not advocating fascism. I am arguing the notion that Bush is a fascist or is exercising his authority any differently than all the other presidents. I think powers that be hate the man and are desperate to win back some power and will say or do anything to achieve that end. I don’t think he is a great president but he is not the demon the left is trying to make him out to be. The MSM is in the pocket of the left so the constant drumbeat of paranoia has the left wing moonbats worked up into a tizzy thinking we’re on the verge of destruction. Its too much it’s out of control. The name calling the alarmist hyperbole is going to act to bring about the chaos which will create the need for that which you fear. A self fulfilling prophecy. We need to remain calm and bring back common sense and civility. Belive me I felt the same under Clinton for eight years with all his cronyism and constitutional adjustments. But conservatives as a whole approach matters with a little more reserve. Even still we had militias ready for civil war and nut jobs blowing up federal buildings. Is this what we want? The right learned it needed to tone down the rhetoric. I hope the left learns before its to late.
March 20th, 2006 at 10:46 pm“I don’t think – troll”
The only honest thing this whackjob has posted.
Nothing this turdball says is consist, rational, honest or even RELATED to the thread.
Troll, you are honest in your name, but otherwise, you’re a fool!
March 20th, 2006 at 10:58 pmAnd Troll,
What exactly is ‘toned down’ about Coulter, Limbaugh, O’Reilly, Dobson or Robertson again?
FOOL!
March 20th, 2006 at 10:58 pmThe historical ideological perspective of the word is well established I chose to use the word in a different context how hard is that to understand?
Political correctness is a movement of the left how is it that you claim some call it fascist if fascism is, correctly understood, a right ideology? Could you be using the other sense of the word?
The president can not possibly explain each and every action he takes to the American people nor is it advisable. If you wish then to interpolate a sinister motive that is your right. But as someone who is privy to sensitive information James Hansen should be more responsible.
I am glad to speek to you who has dealt with sensitive information and recognizes the need at times not only to not exersize a right but a duty by law not to exersize that same right. We have no clue what other matters the president was dealing with and it may be he can not tell us. There are things we should not know.
March 20th, 2006 at 11:14 pmFinally we are all arbitrators of honor.
Ryan you are the court jester but your rage is sad. I pity you.
March 20th, 2006 at 11:18 pmexercise was for you Ryan so you could be right for once.
March 20th, 2006 at 11:21 pmGreat Clif I am not advocating fascism.
No but you do a good imitation when you critise an american for exercising his right to free speech when you disagree with what he has to say….
I am arguing the notion that Bush is a fascist or is exercising his authority any differently than all the other presidents.
Radically different, Bush did to Iraq what I was sent to the Gulf to punish Iraq for doing to Kuwait. Bush complaining about Saddams invasion of Kuwait is sort of the pot calling the kettle black.
I think powers that be hate the man and are desperate to win back some power and will say or do anything to achieve that end.
Not hate just tired of the imcompetence, lies, distortions of the truth, cronyism, disrespect for the average american, destruction of our military, cutting of veterans benifits, denail of problems like Katrina until he is hit in the face with it, inability to actually come face the people but hide in staged events that distort his actual popularity and acceptance of his message, basically tired of bush’s neo-fascist cowboy ways.
I don’t think he is a great president but he is not the demon the left is trying to make him out to be.
He is going down as the worst president as to foriegn policy and only Hoover is below him for the economy developement. Noty a demon just incompetent for the job.
The MSM is in the pocket of the left so the constant drumbeat of paranoia has the left wing moonbats worked up into a tizzy thinking we’re on the verge of destruction.
That statement is so full of bull that it is laughable, Fox news and MSNBC(except for keith Olbermann) both shrill for the right, and CNN is quickly catching up.
Its too much it’s out of control. The name calling the alarmist hyperbole is going to act to bring about the chaos which will create the need for that which you fear.
Thank you Karl Rove.
A self fulfilling prophecy. We need to remain calm and bring back common sense and civility.
So the right will stop after 25+ years of the very actions you now decry.
Belive me I felt the same under Clinton for eight years with all his cronyism and constitutional adjustments.
I must have missed most of the 90’s since I do not remember Clintons ignoring the constitution and congress never investigating the president during Clintons years
But conservatives as a whole approach matters with a little more reserve.
More Bull…Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Tom Delay, And all the AEI_ Fox talking heads along with an small army of others….
Even still we had militias ready for civil war and nut jobs blowing up federal buildings.
A right wing nut job. Not to mention Eric Rudolph
Is this what we want?
Not me, I have two daughters and hope they can have a good and full life in this country if Bush doesn’t completely blow it and invade Iran.
The right learned it needed to tone down the rhetoric.
Exactly when did they learn this in the last two seconds because Cheney on TV yesterday and Bush in his speech today missed that message from the GOP central.
I hope the left learns before its to late.
We are not the ones who invaded the wrong country in the war on terror, broke the military, broke the budget to the tune of $8,200,000,000,000 o0f which my nine year old has a $27,000 share of. We are not the ones who pander to the radical right which advocate making the christian religion the law of the land, like the Missouri Legislature is doing as we exchange posts, we are not the ones who say they are compassionate when we cut moneys for the poorest weakest, funds to help children learn, funds to protect the enviroment for our children and grandchildren all the while gibving the richest amoung us more money in the form of tax cuts which did not raise the revenues in the federal coffers and did not creat good paying jobs because those rich are out sourcing those jobs away.
I hope the supposted christians would actually apply the sermon on the mount which Christ calls for instead of the ten commandments. Funny the call themselves christian and deny the central tennents of hius message, just like the republicans deny the central tennent fo what they said they believe in for the last quarter century fiscal dicipline, makes both sort of a hypocrite for their lack of following the message they espouse.
March 20th, 2006 at 11:22 pmSpeak was for your pathetic little life to thrill over.
March 20th, 2006 at 11:25 pm“Ryan you are the court jester but your rage is sad. I pity you. Comment by troll”
You like O’Liely are a hack, and just because I’m funny, and your a witless moron who doesn’t know what fascism is! And I’m glad you find me amusing – moron – because the court jester isn’t filled with rage, but the madman locked in the tower is. Your ‘mixed metaphor’ is as retarded and irrelevant as everything you’ve written. FOOL.
“exercise was for you Ryan so you could be right for once. Comment by troll”
Ironic coming from you, the idiot who doesn’t know that a fascist practices fascism. MORON.
“But as someone who is privy to sensitive information James Hansen should be more responsible. Comment by troll”
Ironic coming from the Libby/Blabby administration.
Your ’secret defense’ is hypocritical in light of the Plame case, which makes you’re a moron. All branches of government need oversight – that’s why we have balance of powers. Your ignorance of democracy shows you’re unworthy of it – like most fascist.
“Speak was for your pathetic little life to thrill over. Comment by troll”
My life isn’t pathetic, but your penchant for projecting your failures (like your fascism) on others implies yours is. Karma is a b!tch, and clearly your her baby.
March 21st, 2006 at 12:13 amThe historical ideological perspective of the word is well established I chose to use the word in a different context how hard is that to understand?
In other words deceptive, kinda like Joseph Gobbles did a while ago……
Political correctness is a movement of the left how is it that you claim some call it fascist if fascism is, correctly understood, a right ideology? Could you be using the other sense of the word?
Fascism Has been historically connected with far right governments like, Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Pinochet, Diem, Saddam, Marcos, Suharto, and a whole host of banana dictators the Washington establishment has coddled over the years.
The president can not possibly explain each and every action he takes to the American people nor is it advisable. If you wish then to interpolate a sinister motive that is your right. But as someone who is privy to sensitive information James Hansen should be more responsible.
The research data on the effects of global warming is NOT sensitive, you diatribe is not accurate on this point but given what you have written it is to be expected……
I am glad to speak to you who has dealt with sensitive information and recognizes the need at times not only to not exercise a right but a duty by law not to exercise that same right.
Yes if the information is accurately classified as per the proper US government statutes, but the 24 year old GOP operative who lied on his resume to get the job does not have that power.
We have no clue what other matters the president was dealing with and it may be he can not tell us.
Neither does he have a clue if the last 6 years are anything to go by……..
There are things we should not know.
Yes actual war plans, I knew of Desert Storm plans as early as November 1990, and totally agree that they should have been kept top secret. Other things like exactly what we know about North Korea’s actual state of nuclear readiness and advancements I have absolutely no need to know, but a open unclassified research report of NASA falls outside such guidelines and I have a right to know by the simple fact of the FOIA, sorry that is one of the bedrocks of a democracy, the fullest openness of the government to the people that does not harm true national security, not public embarrassment of a particular Administration or person,
Finally we are all arbitrators of honor.
To bad those in DC are so bad at ti especially those in the higher echelons of the administration.
BTW sorry for the spelling check that changed theyway you exactly posted but I try and run one.
March 21st, 2006 at 12:24 am[...] Excellent blog posts on the 60 Minutes piece can be found at The Left Coaster, Daily Kos and Think Progress. [link] [...]
March 21st, 2006 at 2:59 amOkay First off
Ryan, seriously, stop it. All you are doing is forcing troll into being, well, a troll. You are not helping the issue and really you are engaging in active ad-hominem attacks.
Also, Clinton did not sign Kyoto. America is not one of the signataries of Kyoto, it is one of the big issues with Kyoto that America never signed, therefore acting as an example to a lot of other big polluting countries, such as I am ashamed to admit, South Africa.
Next: Troll:
Right, historically the Rightwing has been downright terrible on Enviromentalism. Reagan in fact put in a guy in who honestly believed that we should be actively destroying the world in the name of bringing about the rapture. That guy followed much the same teachings as GW. That is why we think religion has something to do with this.
There is also a historic tendency of the rightwing to favour religion rather then science, look at the teaching of Evolution in schools (seriously, leave creationism in Sunday school.) We are so used to seeing rightwingers bring up god in non-religious arguments that we have a tendency to simply assume they did it the second the argument becomes public. It is a bit of blind spot, but not entirely straw man, more simple error.
Though the liberals haven’t been in power for a long while yet, because face it in America you get two Republican parties, Dishonest Republicans and the Democrats. The trouble right now is that many liberals are voting Democrat because of the fact that they and the Republicans pallied up to con the American people into thinking there were only two parties worth voting for, when in truth America has quite a few other viable candidates standing.
If you are a liberal there is no real reason to vote for any other Democrat other then Feingold or Murtha. The others just roll over when the slightest bit of pressure is applied by their opponents. Okay, impeaching Bush is important, but so is forcing the Democrats to return to having gutsy leadership. You won’t get rid of Dubya if your leaders capitulate at the very thought of censure, never mind actual impeachment procedings.
Now back to the topic:
Right now this guy’s word carries a lot of unused power. He is needed as a scientist, but maybe it is time that America put a scientist in the Oval Office. Someone want to set up a petition to get him to run? He seems to have the chief characteristics most Presidents need but lack, honesty and intellect. Maybe it is time to give the enviromental scientists a bash at power.
March 21st, 2006 at 4:15 am
March 21st, 2006 at 5:10 am
March 21st, 2006 at 5:13 amFascist epithet from wikipedia not the best source but non the less has some credibility
“In this sense, the word “fascist” is generally meant to mean “oppressive,” “intolerant,” “chauvinist,” or “aggressive,” all concepts that are at least loosely inspired by the ideology of actual fascism. For example, one might accuse an inconviently placed police road block as being a “fascist tactic” or an overly authoritarian teacher as being a “real fascist.” Terms like “Nazi” and “Hitler” are often used in similarly superficial contexts.”
For the entire article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_%28epithet%29
March 21st, 2006 at 7:00 am[...] The war is clearly still raging in the US, and the outcome is not determined. As NASA scientist James Hansen explained on 60 Minutes this week, the Bush administration tightly controls, restricts, and distorts scientific knowledge before it reaches the american people: [...]
March 21st, 2006 at 8:38 amI am not sure a physical scientist as primary criteria is such a good idea. They often are lacking in the social sciences which seem to me to be more critical for a president to possess particularly economics.
March 21st, 2006 at 8:59 amI didn’t read all the comments so I am sure this has been said before, but just how is this guy being muzzled? I mean, he sure looked like he was talking up a storm on 60 Minutes and he has been interviewed before. He is putting his theory out there for all to see — I mean I saw it and I assume millions of others did.
Or by muzzled do you mean “not automatically accepted as fact” or “NASA, the agency he works for, wants to point out that not everyone there agrees with him?”
March 21st, 2006 at 10:08 amTMW
March 21st, 2006 at 10:44 amHow dare you come to the defense of this obviously evil president. He hates mother earth and is out to destroy it you fool. Who gives a crap what the other scientist have to say if it does not agree with the with the conclutions drawn by liberal ideologues who obviously know better than everyone else cause they care more and as a result are superior in all respects.
Bush had his handler there suppressing his freedom just like the commu er I mean the nazis when they where spewing their social er fascist propaganda. Bush hates humanity and civil rights and his children and his mother and the creator and everything else we treasure. He and the other nazi conservatives love only money. The God thing is BS meant to manipulate the proletariat er I mean the ignorant masses we have been trying to decieve scratch that the people.
#144
AGAIN, and the other reasons you failed to mention for the U.S. involvement in Chile in 1973? I hope you are not suggesting the the Soviets didn’t have any involvement during that time in Latin America.
http://www.fiu.edu/~yaf/pinochetsenemies.html
If you would actually look at the two leaders of those countries in 1973 you would see that their socialist/communist politics were very similar, not to mention that Allende was a self described Marxist. I mentioned Juan Velasco Alvarado to make a point that a country right next door to Chile heavily backed by the Soviets ousted the former democratically elected leader Fernando Belaúnde Terry meaning that coups are not a tatic used just by the right and that left wing dictators are just a bad as right wing dictators.
On a side note with all this talk of fascism being a halmark of the far right…
totalitarianism…a halmark of the far left.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism
BOTH are crap.
March 21st, 2006 at 12:13 pmTracy, where did you get your education?
March 21st, 2006 at 1:48 pmFascism and communism, as the latter has been enacted, are actually the same thing. It’s just how they get to the guys in charge which differs.
Communism is when government takes over all business, thus resulting in one person or small group of people, in control of all the power, economic, political and cultural within one society.
Fascism is when business takes over government, leading to much the same result. Fascism is actually the greater threat, because business has a lot more money to spend on propaganda and arms then most workers and communist organisations do.
In the end they both end up with much the same traits. Strong law enforcement, minimal to non-existant labour laws, a tendency towards warfare, they deify their leaders, and both fight against civil rights such as privacy and freedom of speech tooth and claw.
They aren’t opposite sides of the political spectrum, and now I am going to say something surprising, neither of them are right or left wing. True conservatives want things to stay the same, and true liberals want things to change, and these ideals exist irrespective of what form of government you believe to be best.
In truth most liberals in America are in fact constitutionally conservative and socially liberal, economic centrists. The idea of “Lets do good” is liberal, and the proviso “And pay off our debts” is conservative.
Neocons are not conservatives. They are fascists. Actual neo-Nazi fascists. There aren’t all that many differences between the Neo-Nazi’s rhetoric regarding Jews and Neocons rhetoric regarding liberals. There are a lot of differences in their ideology on what to do with the rest of the world, on how to treat freedom of speech, and on how to treat America itself, to what is traditionally American.
March 21st, 2006 at 1:56 pm#196, “left wing dictators are just a bad as right wing dictators.” Agreed. But there lies the assymmetry of the example you describe – if the Soviets removed one democratically elected leader (Peru) to install a left-wing dictator, what possible purpose can removing another democratically-elected leader (Allende) to install a fascist (Pinochet) achieve for the US? Surely if Chileans want to elect a socialist (or even a Marxist) that’s up to them and not Henry Kissinger? What value system does the US stand for if Chile 1973 is acceptable? The Soviets failed because they had no legitimacy in those states they subverted, why does America think it will avoid the Soviet fate if it too pursues Soviet tactics as illustrated in Chile, Iran and others?
Anyway, this thread is about to disappear off the front page, interesting stuff Tracy.
March 21st, 2006 at 2:02 pm#198
“Fascism is actually the greater threat, because business has a lot more money to spend on propaganda and arms then most workers and communist organisations do.”
LOL! You just said that communism is when the government, i.e. ONE entity takes over the entire political and economic infrastructure of a society which means they have alot more CONTROL considering an elite few control EVERYTHING…politics, media, the economy, the military, ect…
“Neocons are not conservatives. They are fascists.”
Mostly, and far left elitists are supporters of totalitarianism…mostly.
“…on how to treat freedom of speech”
NEITHER the far left or the far right support that right.
March 21st, 2006 at 2:53 pm
March 21st, 2006 at 4:15 pmMy understanding of neo-conservatives is that they are far more interventionist or internationalist in regards to foreign policy in addition they are far more “liberal” on domestic issues as well. With this in mind and being that they are converts from the democrat party would this not make them left of classic conservatives, a movement away from the fascist?
March 21st, 2006 at 5:21 pmEven if you DON’T believe the science, why would you stifle opposition to your point of view unless you knew you were lying?
(Why not offer up all 9/11 evidence if you have nothing to hide?)
Dots connected.
March 21st, 2006 at 9:51 pmtroll,
Sorry, but the dictionary trumps wikipedia – you lose. Just be a ‘man’ and admit you were wrong.
March 22nd, 2006 at 2:38 amTracy
Generally businesses do make more money the governments do. For example, in real terms the US government is in fact, fiscally bankrupt. Has been for years. Clinton reversed some of the damage, but as a whole America isn’t exactly in the black. Further, generally a certain degree of corruption prevents Government from being too strong, as most of the people in government require donations to fund their election campaigns. Generally communism is championed as a workers solution, but the workers don’t have the money, the capitalists do.
Microsoft, in short, could buy and sell the US at a loss and not feel the pinch.
Now onto Troll
My understanding of neo-conservatives is that they are far more interventionist or internationalist in regards to foreign policy in addition they are far more “liberal†on domestic issues as well. With this in mind and being that they are converts from the democrat party would this not make them left of classic conservatives, a movement away from the fascist?
Comment by troll — March 21, 2006 @ 5:21 pm
True internationalism requires a idealogy of consent, it, much like true democracy cannot be forced upon anyone. It requires a willingness to learn from the rest of the world, as well as a willingness to teach. It requires a belief in the equality of all humans, and the equal importance of the rights of all humans. Needless to say, with their support of the current administrations acts of torture and detention without trial the neo-cons cannot claim to respect the rights of all people.
On social issues the neo-cons are neither conservative nor liberal. They don’t fall into conservatism because they want to change things back to their hazy just want to get rid of most social services. Liberals want to change and extend social services, while conservatives want to keep them the same.
That said, true conservatives are actually a strong force against communism and fascism. They slow down progress but they also help keep government on the tracks. Liberals can, and do, go overboard. We sometimes change things without thinking of the consequences and we are frequently wrong, which is why we need real conservatives. Conservatives need us, because without us they stagnate. Neocons on the other hand, are just trouble.
Generally the rule with presidency is this: If everything is going wrong, get a liberal. The Liberals are your best bet in a crisis situation. If nothing is going wrong, get a conservative, because while liberals are good in a crisis, they are also good at causing a crisis.
March 22nd, 2006 at 9:36 amEhr flip
“They don’t fall into conservatism because they want to change things back to their hazy just want to get rid of most social services”
Should read
They don’t fall into conservatism because they want to change things back to their hazy idea of the way things were at the start of the century, in essence they just want to get rid of most social services.
March 22nd, 2006 at 9:40 amBefore. Shit this Lariam is having an effect.
March 22nd, 2006 at 9:41 amBruce,
“Internationalist” does not convey the meaning I intended.
Classical conservatives are isoationist. The extreme right is fascism which is nationalistic. The extreme left, communism is more globalist and they typically do not seek the concent of those nations they occupy. The foreign policy of the neo-cons is interventionist in foreign pollicy and I would argue then left of classic conservatism and truly very near to moderate liberalism. As an example Clinton intervened in the Balkan Peninsula and had our boys serving as UN “Peace keepers” around the world.
In regards to domestic policy it is the classic conservatives and libertatians who oppose the welfare state and big government while the neo-cons have embraced a policy of “compationate conservatism” or domestic intervention as is evidenced by their spending, expantion of entitlement programs and the expansion of the Department of education. These policies move them left on the political spectrum not right and thus closer to liberals which is probably why they have done so well in elections throughout the nation. They represent an arm of the Republican party which has moved the party left thus moderating the GOP while the Democrats have also moved significantly left thus isolating itself from moderate Americans in its percieved extremism.
There is little significant difference between moderate liberals and neo-cons which is probably why most of you are presently so upset with elected democrats they are trying to hold or at least present a moderate position for polical reasons if they don’t it will almost surely mean the death of the party.
March 22nd, 2006 at 10:46 am#205
“Generally businesses do make more money the governments do.”
The fact the U.S. government can arbitrarily raise their credit limit (it happened just recently) never stopped them from spending billions of dollars. The fact that most private businesses are fiscally solvent is irrelevant when talking about who has more money…i.e. the govenment or businesses.
“Clinton reversed some of the damage, but as a whole America isn’t exactly in the black.”
Excuse me, the 1994 Republican congress FORCED Clinton to sign the balanced budget amendment. Please get the facts straight.
“Generally communism is championed as a workers solution, but the workers don’t have the money, the capitalists do.”
I.e. that would be the state government.
“Microsoft, in short, could buy and sell the US at a loss and not feel the pinch.”
Yeah right! That wouldn’t include the the trillions in debt the U.S. government has that MicroSoft would have to absorb and pay off in order not to go bankrupt….would it?
March 22nd, 2006 at 4:40 pmOh Beautiful for smoggy skies, insecticided grain,
March 23rd, 2006 at 9:45 amFor strip-mined mountain’s majesty above the asphalt plain.
America, America, man sheds his waste on thee,
And hides the pines with billboard signs, from sea to oily sea.
~George Carlin
For anyone who doubts that this guy is an ideologue see http://www.gopusa.com/news/2006/march/0323_scientist_censorship1.shtml
March 24th, 2006 at 11:00 am[...] Supporting Hansen How the Bush administration muzzles the…: How the Bush administration muzzles the world’s top global warming scientist: “In my more than three decades in the government, I’ve never witnessed such restrictions on the ability of scientists to communicate with the public.” [...]
March 25th, 2006 at 8:58 pmThe Barbarian Republicans are attempting to repeat history
“The Dark Ages
March 26th, 2006 at 7:10 amEarly scholars gave the name “Dark Ages” to the period in Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. During this period, barbarian Goths, Vandals, and Huns swept down on Europe from the north and east. They destroyed many fine buildings and works of art that had existed during Roman times. During the Dark Ages, knowledge survived only in monasteries, and there were very few schools. Many of the old arts and crafts were lost. This is why the time was called the “Dark Ages.”
http://mr_sedivy.tripod.com/med_hist.html
[...] In his latest response to our critique, Steorts enlists James Hansen – the NASA climate scientist who was famously muzzled by the Bush administration for his outspoken views about the dangers of global warming – to bolster his point. Steorts quotes Hansen as saying “the IPCC scenarios are unduly pessimistic.” [...]
June 1st, 2006 at 10:17 am[...] Think Progress has the video up from this compelling interview done on 60 Minutes last night: Yesterday, 60 Minutes aired a powerful segment documenting how the Bush administration has muzzled the government’s top global warming researcher, James Hansen. Watch an excerpt: [...]
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