Tancredo: ‘Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Know the First Thing About the Bible’
Tancredo: ‘Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Know the First Thing About the Bible’
Conservative-backed immigration bills being debated in the Senate would make it a federal crime — punishable by up to five years in prison — to offer aid to undocumented immigrants. Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY) slammed the legislation last week: “It is certainly not in keeping with my understanding of the Scripture because this bill would literally criminalize the Good Samaritan and probably even Jesus himself.”
Anti-immigrant hardliner Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO) responded to Clinton this morning on ABC’s This Week. Watch it:
STEPHANOPOULOS: Congressman Tancredo, she’s basically saying your approach is un-Christian.
TANCREDO: I’m not really surprised that Hillary Clinton doesn’t know the first thing about the Bible. Her impression — her analysis, her interpretation of both the law and the Bible are certainly wrong to say the least. This has nothing to do — the bill we passed out of the House has nothing to do with criminalizing Good Samaritans.
Clinton is right about the law. According to Los Angeles Cardinal Roger Mahoney, the proposed provision “is so broad that it would criminalize even minor acts of mercy like offering a meal or administering first aid.” Mahoney has instructed the priests of his archdiocese to disobey the law if it is enacted.
As for Clinton’s knowledge of the Bible, it’s Tancredo who needs a refresher. Take Isaiah 49:10: “They will neither hunger nor thirst, nor will the desert heat or the sun beat upon them. He who has compassion on them will guide them and lead them beside springs of water.”
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TANCREDO is a straight up racist. Compassionate Conservative my ars. Great, he represents my district.
March 26th, 2006 at 11:26 ami had a brushing acquaintance with tancredo back in 2003 when i was living in denver… a good friend of mine was serving as the vice-consul for the mexican consulate in denver… a story came out about an academically gifted high schooler, the son of undocumented aliens, who couldn’t affort to attend college… it was a nice human interest story in the denver post… tancredo jumped on it and tried to have the teenager and his entire family deported… my friend stepped in to assist as part of his job and tancredo proceeded to smear him and the consulate in public… tancredo didn’t succeed and, in fact, an anonymous donor stepped forward and offered to pay the young man’s way through any college of his choice… i remember thinking at the time just how astounding it was that such an bigoted asshole could be elected to the u.s. house of representatives… silly me…
Visit my blog: And, yes, I DO take it personally
March 26th, 2006 at 11:31 amThis guy is such a fool. Won’t he be surprised when Jesus calls him to the Principal’s office.
March 26th, 2006 at 11:34 amprofmarcus
March 26th, 2006 at 11:35 amUnfortunately Tancredo is not up for reelection this year. I do not think he has a chance in an honest election at this point. BTW I have always loved the fact of the Mexican Consulate location down in the uppity Cherry Creek Shopping District.
It’s not a requirement for her job, Tom. Or for any job she might seek in public office.
March 26th, 2006 at 11:36 amSo sad that what I regard as Christian values have been so preverted by the religious right that that are virtually unrecognizable.
If what the right wing establishment says is a valid interpretation of the nature of Christianity; I am super-pissed about all of the time, money, and emotion that I have packed into churches and my faith over the last 50 years. It’s a total waste. But I’m not willing to give in to their evil interpretation quite yet. They must really frustrate the bastards.
March 26th, 2006 at 11:38 amCan we PLEASE remove religion out of politics?!?
March 26th, 2006 at 11:41 amNews for “theroachman”…all members of the House of Representatives are up for reelections this year, including Rep. Tancredo (unless he decides to retrire).
March 26th, 2006 at 11:41 amHillary is one of thos OLD Christians and Tancredo is one of the NEW Christians. The one more suited for these modern times where people don’t use their critical thinking skills. He’s one of those CINO Christians (Christian in name only)….which makes up the majority of the Republican Conservative Base. They should call themselves Power Christians because for them - its all about power - getting it and keeping it.
March 26th, 2006 at 11:43 amIf I remember my college language classes correctly, “Tancredo” is Italian for “David Duke.”
March 26th, 2006 at 11:44 am#8 Opps I new that. Its early and my kids have Cinderella two on. Known to warp the mine
March 26th, 2006 at 11:45 amSo did Stphan actually make Tancredo explain why she is wrong, or did he jsut let his comment stand on its own, as if it were the truth?
March 26th, 2006 at 11:45 amIf I remember my college language classes correctly, “Tancredo†is Italian for “David Duke.â€
Comment by TheWurmserTurns — March 26, 2006 @ 11:44 am
That’s hysterical!
March 26th, 2006 at 11:49 amOh snap, TP just took Tancredo to Bible school.
March 26th, 2006 at 11:54 amHow does Tancredo know so much about illegal immigrants anyway?
March 26th, 2006 at 11:55 amTancredo is running against a real fighter, Bill Winter. http://www.winterforcongress.com
Bill is a Vet of both the Marines and Navy. He’s a tremendous speaker and I think will be a gifted congressperson.
Donate, volunteer, http://www.winterforcongress.com/
March 26th, 2006 at 11:57 amTom Tancredo is going to Hell.
March 26th, 2006 at 11:58 amIt says so right in the Bible.
yorktank Denver has a large immigrant population. I think it was about 50,000 who were at the protest march yesterday here in Denver. We have been deleing with this issue a lot here. Two days ago 47 Mexican immigrants were injured in accidents involving only three vans.
March 26th, 2006 at 11:58 amTancredo should not, by his own words, be considered a follower of Jesus Christ, because his words and more importantly, his actions indicate clearly that he hss none of the values of Jesus. He is typical of most of the fundamentalists who call themselves “Christians.” His whole philsophy and theirs, is rooted in a distortion of the Hebrew Scriptures. The old law which Jesus replaced with a “New Law” whose basic principle is “Love one another, as I have loved you.” All of these frauds would do well to read Matthew 25, 31-46 and to remember another passage where Jesus warns us, “you know not the day nor the hour”( of the coming of the Lord). Further, “you fool, this very night your soul will be demanded of you.”
March 26th, 2006 at 12:02 pmI would put more stock in what Hillary knows of Scripture, than what Tancredo knows. At least Hillary has read the New Testament. I seriously doubt that Tancredo ever has.
Tom is an idiotic corporate hitman for sure but I do not forgive Hillary for using religion as a political tool. The end does not justify the means and using Christianity as a political tool simply because the religious right uses the same tool only serves to cheapen Christianity.
Religion is, at best, a matter of Faith, a personal and private affair. At worst it is mental masturbation. Whatever it is, it belongs in the privacy of one’s home or in their place of worship and must be kept out of government which belongs equally to people of all faiths and to people of no faith.
March 26th, 2006 at 12:03 pmWell, not to defend Tancredo, but Hillary is the latest and greatest politician to take up the “you can defend/attack any position using Jesus†rationalization.
And it’s so annoying.
March 26th, 2006 at 12:07 pmHillary hit a GOP weak point with this one. I think many religious people see that the GOP version of Xtianity is a bit lacking and I think we should do all we can to hammer this home between now and November.
March 26th, 2006 at 12:09 pmprofmarcus. if tancredo is a congressman how could he not be up for re-election in 06?
March 26th, 2006 at 12:10 pmi dunno … fight fire with fire … the repugs are always acting so sanctimonious and self-righteous, it seems logical to use those ideals to call out their hypocracy … just sayin’ …
March 26th, 2006 at 12:10 pmClinton vs. Tancredo…
Here’s how Sen. Hillary Clinton characterized Republican attempts to control illegal immigration earlier this week:Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton invoked the Bible yesterday to criticize a stringent border security measure that, among other things, wo…
March 26th, 2006 at 12:11 pmSeems to me that someone whose last name ends in a vowel might be a little more tolerant of folks with immigration/emigration issues…
March 26th, 2006 at 12:12 pmbut tancredo’s a fascist fuckstick, so what’d'ya expect?
#21 Lesly. Why is can’t Hillary call tancredo out on this? He uses the Bible for his warped views quite often
March 26th, 2006 at 12:13 pmDon’t need to quote the bibal to know tancrado is an asshole
March 26th, 2006 at 12:14 pmfundies don’t believe in the old testament…that’s old law…the new testament is there guide…except when it isn’t convenient….hypocrites!!!
March 26th, 2006 at 12:22 pmThey still have Fascists in Italy. (I think one of them is a big deal in Rome.)
The evil that this Immigration legislation represents is being recapitulated throughout Europe, and is clearly political posturing to make overt racism socially acceptable again. Goodness knows, that playing the Mexican card is one of the last desperate tricks in an empty deck.
And make no mistake about it, this legislation is driven by one motivation: racism.
March 26th, 2006 at 12:28 pmI live in Guadalajara, Mx. Three years ago I married a Mexican National.
Social Security regulations state that when I die, and when she reaches age 60, she will get SS equal to about 55 percent of my check when I expire.
A little known catch to this is that all Mexicans who qualify in any manner for SS MUST travel to the US and live there for 3 months per year.
I looked into this and found that in the border cities there are “casas” (houses) where my wife could go and stay for three months.
But there is one great, great big catch. The American Embassy down here has a social security office in one part of the embassy building. On the other side is immigration. Huge lines going all away around the one square block building are seen every day on the immigration side. They are Mexicans trying to get travel permits, visas or passports to the US.
If you are a woman wanting to travel to the states in an effort to obtain your social security benefits, you are routinely turned down. You cant get to the states to live for the required three months, you dont get your benefits. It is a catch 22 situation.
I was in the area not long ago to see about a social security problem. I talked with a woman there who had been trying for SEVEN YEARS to meet the three month requirement, but she has been turned down every time she has applied. And - social security does not have to pay her retroactively. They have so notified her in writing. I saw it.
Oh people get through. All one has to do is to find the right clerk who will take a bribe to get approval. A clerk was caught several months ago approving visas for a bribe.
I worked for over 50 years, and paid mucho dinero into the system and it angers me that things are handled in this way. I feel that if I want to leave my benefits to a Mexican wife, I should be allowed to.
March 26th, 2006 at 12:31 pmRepublicans own the ‘Jesus’ franchise. They bought it back in the early 80’s. Nothing pisses off a Republican more than a Democrat who imfringes on their trademark.
March 26th, 2006 at 12:32 pmGreedy selfish and ignorant Christians are always Republicans.
Jesus weeps.
March 26th, 2006 at 12:32 pmTHE GREAT THING ABOUT THE REPUBLICAN NOISE MACHINE
is how obvious it is: It’s rather obvious (at this early date) that at least part of the Republican Noise Machine’s strategy to prevent a President Clinton II is to portray her as “unChristian”, or “irreligious”, or what, not a FOJC? I don’t know, it looks like that I guess.
But it’s way to early, for me anyway, to care about such stuff; let the Senator in question start thinking about whether such noise as that could in any way hurt her politically (I remind, Article 6, Clause 3, of the U.S. Constitution: “…but no religous Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States”)…
But it’s nice to have a heads-up on the Republican Noise Machine’s strategy, even if it is too early.
As for me, now’s the time to keep the Devil on the run…
Now’s the time for FALSIFIED ‘pre-war intelligence’ (that led to an ever-unpopular invasion of Iraq), and illegal wiretapping, and Ethics (both Congressional and Administrative).
We’ve got the Devil on the run; the time is ripe, let there be no rot on the (grape) vine.
March 26th, 2006 at 12:38 pmWhen a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the stranger. The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you.”
March 26th, 2006 at 12:53 pmLeviticus 19:33
Well, not to defend Tancredo, but Hillary is the latest and greatest politician to take up the “you can defend/attack any position using Jesus†rationalization.
I agree. Clinton is obviously right on the religious matter in question here, but she shouldn’t have brought Jesus into this (and didn’t need to).
March 26th, 2006 at 12:54 pmpaul in mexico - i am reminded of a comment i overheard while voting in the illinois primary the other day - a woman said that she received a flyer stating that illegal immigrants RECEIVE s.s. benefits…i always knew the workers paid in, but didn’t think they could collect unless citizens…
March 26th, 2006 at 12:56 pmjust wondering…
TANCREDO knows about the Bible: ROTFLMAOL!!!
TANCREDO cannot even READ the REAL Bible.
TANCREDO has no proficiency at all in Arabic, Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Syriac, etc.
TANCREDO, like most Bible Thumpers, are illiterate hypocrits that bash opponents with the Bible in one screen and download kiddie porn in another while dressed in knee-high leather boots, black panties, and a Viking helmet.
March 26th, 2006 at 12:59 pmI lived in Denver 25 years ago for a few years. This guy represents the City of Denver? Thank God I moved out of that city if he is representative of the type of people living there now. It used to be a live and let live town. Sounds like I would be miserable there now with his ilk all around me.After all, he was elected by the citizens. I now live in So. Florida and can’t believe I dealt with the Colorado snow storms for years. Never again.
March 26th, 2006 at 1:00 pmHe’s a very tan cretin.
March 26th, 2006 at 1:03 pm“Christians” such as these count on the rest of us having no more than a passing familiarity with the old or new testament, just like the leaders of the republican party hope that the American people know as little of their nations’ history as they do. Such a sad and ironic spectacle; republican money changers in the White House, House of Representatives and Senate (the kind of folk who drove Jesus to a fit of temper, remember?) attempting to persecute their countrymen for showing Christ-like compassion. It is a crime (a sin, if you like) of biblical proportions.
Perhaps someone more creative than I can portray this, as it ought to be portrayed, as a timeless tale of greed, corruption and hypocrasy. I’m thinking “The Book of Rove” would be a fitting title. Plenty of parables for future politicians.
GOP=God’s own Pharisees.
March 26th, 2006 at 1:07 pmDave in NYC: “I agree. Clinton is obviously right on the religious matter in question here, but she shouldn’t have brought Jesus into this (and didn’t need to).”
So you’d go back and toss out all the writings of Tom Paine, ML King, William Lord Garrison, and nearly every other effective public speaker for reform in US history?
March 26th, 2006 at 1:08 pmAnd, no , TECHNICALLY, his bill would not criminalize the “Good Samaritan”. It would criminalize the ACTIONS of the “Good Samaritan”. And that would make it much easier to shut down any agency based on nothing more than the “suspicion” that they might be aiding illegal immigrants.Just another way to legalize discrimination, and aid in the destruction of “social programs”. Boy, that bible has more uses than the best “Swiss Army Knife”!
March 26th, 2006 at 1:10 pm“Indeed, the Catholic Church, through Catholic Charities agencies around the country, is one of the largest nonprofit providers of social services in the nation, serving both citizens and immigrants.”
Yeah, provided they’re not gay.
March 26th, 2006 at 1:16 pmActually, not all of us support immigration. So, stop trying to pigeon hole people. It always makes you look stupid.
As a resident of California, I am sick of all of the immigration legal or ilegal. The country is full right now. WHen we have created more jobs and the economy gets better, we can start letting more people in.
But, right now, the train is full and can’t take anymore passengers.
March 26th, 2006 at 1:20 pmDave in NYC: “I agree. Clinton is obviously right on the religious matter in question here, but she shouldn’t have brought Jesus into this (and didn’t need to).â€
It’s religion that needs to be kept out of it, not the teachings of Jesus. They, the church, founded the religion after he died and have been screwing it up ever since, like all the founding fathers knew they would.
Google the Jefferson Bible, Dave, old buddy.
He thinks everybody wants to move here! LOL! for the first time in history we are approaching a stasis point where the number of people leaving here is almost equal to the number arriving. trouble is all the good people are leaving because of assholes like you.
March 26th, 2006 at 1:22 pmI just hope they raise taxes soon so freeloaders like Dave will move… to Mexico.
March 26th, 2006 at 1:25 pmI’m with you, Spudge, but many of those who come here do work hard, pay their taxes, no matter how high, without bitching, and really do contribute more than people like Dave, who we would all love to deport.
March 26th, 2006 at 1:27 pmI’m with you, Spudge, but many of those who come here do work hard, pay their taxes, no matter how high, without bitching, and really do contribute more than people like Dave, who we would all love to deport.
Comment by blah — March 26, 2006 @ 1:27 pm
Not a bad idea… :)
March 26th, 2006 at 1:30 pmProbabaly sent out by the same GOPstapo agents that sent the Liberals will Ban The Bible flyerduring the last election. Paul in Mexico is a conservative, if I’m not mistaken. He used to have a blog, and he just wants SS privatized and privateered.
March 26th, 2006 at 1:35 pmWe do need an immigration policy that is not designed for the benefit of Corporations but the American workers and Pmerican people.
March 26th, 2006 at 1:36 pmTancredo himself doesn’t know jack about the interactions of immigration policy; it’s a royal pain in the ass to get Ph.D. level workers in engineering, simply because 90%+ are foreign born.
Tancredo has caused me so much trouble- because I absolutely NEED Ph.D.s that it makes me sick to think this clown is given any kind of forum.
March 26th, 2006 at 1:40 pmBill Frist’s Ancestors Came From The Moon
March 26th, 2006 at 1:45 pmKarl Rove, Hands Off Hillary
The issue here is not whether Hillary Clinton has knowledge of the bible or not.
The issue here is Tancredo’s assertion as such to change the topic, and from this post, I would say a big “mission Accomplished” to that.
The issue here, is that no one called Tancredo on his assertions about Hillary Clinton when he made that statement. We only see the statement. Where the hell was Stephanpoulis asking Tancredo, “Congressman, Do you have a lawy degree or some theology degree that allows you to assert that you know the bible or the law better than Senator Clinton, who does, of course, have a law degree?”
The item for Media Matters here is not just that Tancredo made these assertions, but that they went completely unchecked by Stephanopoulis.
March 26th, 2006 at 1:48 pmI wonder if Tancredo thinks the Catholic Cardinals know anything about the Bible.
March 26th, 2006 at 1:48 pmTancredo proves that there’s a difference between a Christian and a Jesusist.
March 26th, 2006 at 2:05 pmYou guys are all crazy, you think everyone in the world should be allowed to move to the US and have us take care of them. Thank god the majority of people don’t agree with the idiots of this message board.
Only you people would think its ok to rally in the US with Mexican flags. If you people were in charge, god help us all!
Comment by David — March 26, 2006 @ 1:09 pm
David,
There are 11 million illegal immigrants here. 70% of them have been here, working, for more than five years. They have children who were born here. They are citizens, just like people grandparents and parent from Italy, or Ireland, or wherever. Lationos are not some special subset of first generation Americans. They are Americans, period.
How do you expect to deport, or imprison 11 million people? How do you expect to absorb the impact on the service industries or the agriculture industries?
There’s a reason that BUSINESS is not siding with Tancredo on this, and it’s because immigration is GOOD for business and the economy in America and that is a fact.
No fence, no wall and no militia of self-appointed minute men are going to be effective in keeping or stemming illegal immigration. People will do what they think they need to do to feed their families. That is also a fact.
And how do you possibly expect to ameliorate the strain on public services, unless you are able to collect taxes from all undocumented workers and their employers?
And from a practical standpoint, isn’t it better to know who IS here in our country, than who isn’t?
But if you disagree with the idea of immigration, that of course, is your right.
But from a practicable standpoint, how do you plan to imprison all of the illegal immigrants, all of those who help them, and how do you plan to deport 11 million people?
And if you think that illgal immigrants are a strain on public services now, what do you think the cost of the strain to INS would be to find them and deport them.
And here’s something you HAVEN’T thought about; if INS is spending all of it’s time on illegal immigrants from Latin America, what impact will it have on their already outdated and overmatched resources in terms of being able to track terrorists who are trying to enter the US? How does straining the national budget help national security?
March 26th, 2006 at 2:08 pmAnd for the record, I think Clinton was smart to invoke religion into this debate.
There are natural allies to be found on this issue, and the Catholic Church and other church leaders are some very powerful ones to have.
March 26th, 2006 at 2:10 pmSeparation of Church and State.
If we keep telling that to conservatives, we ought to listen to it ourselves.
She may have been right, but she shouldn’t be playing the “religion card.”
March 26th, 2006 at 2:20 pmTerrific campaign slogan!!!!
If I remember my college language classes correctly, “Tancredo†is Italian for “David Duke.â€
Comment by TheWurmserTurns — March 26, 2006 @ 11:44 am
#8 Opps I new that. Its early and my kids have Cinderella two on. Known to warp the mine
Comment by theroachman — March 26, 2006 @ 11:45 am
So did Stphan actually make Tancredo explain why she is wrong, or did he jsut let his comment stand on its own, as if it were the truth?
Comment by Spud1 — March 26, 2006 @ 11:45 am
If I remember my college language classes correctly, “Tancredo†is Italian for “David Duke.â€
Comment by TheWurmserTurns — March 26, 2006 @ 11:44 am
That’s hysterical!
Comment by unbelievable — March 26, 2006 @ 11:49 am
March 26th, 2006 at 2:39 pmImmigration is not GOOD for this economy. immigrants, legal and ilegal send $87 billion dollars a year out of this country, never to return. Now, how is that good for the economy?
I will agree that immigration is GOOD for business. WHy? Because they can under cut Americans by hiring cheap labor. Ilegal immigrants aren’t just picking fruit and doing other jobs that Americans refues to do. They are taking all of the entry level jobs in California. You can’t go to a fast food restraunt without a translator these days.
March 26th, 2006 at 2:39 pmTo Katy, and Paul in Mexico –
Immigrants pay into SS and receive benefits.
Dependents receiving their deceased spouses’ SS must reside in the US for one month every six months. That is, if they have lived outside the US for six months, they must live for one month in the US (including the 1st and last days of the month). There’s a lot of ifs, ands & buts involved, but that seems to be the basic info.
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/pubs/10137.html#intro
I don’t know about embassies purposely keeping people out so they are unable to receive benefits. Frankly, I don’t think the government is organized enough to do that.
March 26th, 2006 at 2:40 pmComment by blah — March 26, 2006 @ 1:22 pm
Actually, the quote from above by Jefferson is “Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty”.
March 26th, 2006 at 2:43 pmthanks michele - i’ll read up on that…
and lily, i don’t think she played the religion card so much as the HYPOCRACY card… and good for her…
March 26th, 2006 at 2:46 pmComment by Lesly — March 26, 2006 @ 12:07 pm
This is a misnomer. Hillary Clinton didn’t invoke the bible. She invoked Jesus Christ, which are not one and the same.
And while there are a number of people who use The Bible, to attack things, there are considerably less who use the teaching of Jesus Christ, as they are generally understood, to attack things.
It’s interesting to note the number of born-again bible-centric Christians who want to use the old testament to destroy their fellow humans.
March 26th, 2006 at 2:47 pmComment by Spudge_Boy — March 26, 2006 @ 2:39 pm
Spudge,
Not doubting your facts so much as looking to compile information, so please don’t take my next question as a challenge. Do you have a link or some other context for your stats?
March 26th, 2006 at 2:57 pm“Unfortunately Tancredo is not up for reelection this year.” –theroachman
ALL House Representatives stand EVERY two years.
The Sixth District in Colorado is no exception.
March 26th, 2006 at 3:06 pm“…it is not to be understood that I am with Him in all of his doctrines. I am a Materialist; He takes the side of Spiritualism. He preaches the efficacy of repentence toward forgiveness of sins; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it, etc., etc. It is the innocence of His character, the purity and sublimity of His moral precepts, the eloquence of His inculcations, the beauty of the apologies in which He conveys them, that I so much admire; sometimes, indeed, needing indulgence to eastern hyperbolism.
“My eulogies, too, may be founded on a postulate which all may not be ready to grant. Among the sayings and discources imputed to Him by His biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same Being.
“I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore to Him the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of His disciples.”
–Thomas Jefferson, letter to Van der Kemp, 1820
The Jefferson Bible”
March 26th, 2006 at 3:18 pmMean-spirited and bigoted. Those who boast that they are “christian” are the ones who are the least charitable. They are cold authoritarian and judgmental.
March 26th, 2006 at 3:36 pmThey are the pharisees of modern day.
Clergy have opposed this legislation, and even advised disobeyance of the law — it is that harmful and unkind.
I am a Democrat and although no fan of the Hialry for President campaign (that is a guaranteed loser for the Dems in 2008), many Anglicans I know — who do live and breathe the Scripture (unlike me) — have strongy impressed upon me that Hilary’s Christianity is for real and as bone fide as it comes. Moreover, this predates her formal entry into politics by decades — in other words, she didn’t just see the light on the campaign trail or, for that matter, after one too many DWIs. In other words, Tancredo is simply an asshole.
March 26th, 2006 at 3:39 pmHilliary Clinton is one of the worse things to have happened to the Democratic party. And Tancredo, icks!
Is Mexico such a hell hole that no one wants to live there?
Doesn’t Mexico have national pride, that they would want to serve their own country and make it better?
Wasn’t NAFTA suppose to fix everything?
March 26th, 2006 at 3:40 pm#51, Katy,
March 26th, 2006 at 3:43 pmIt is my impression that undocumented workers pay into the Soc. Sec. system through their paychecks, but they are not able to collect benefits. It is only documented workers that can receive benefits.
I think the woman you encountered at the polls was conflating undocumented with documented - she put all Mexicans in one basket, so to speak.
I have no problem giving links. The $87 billion comes from a story on immigration that aired on NPR. Problem is their stuff is hard to search, because it is an audio file with a short discription. Let me find it.
In the mean time, here is a different article that states Mexican totals only, but the Mexicans aren’t the only ones sending money out of the country.
March 26th, 2006 at 3:46 pmProf. Marcus (#2 above) will correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the Denver Post collaborate with the Mexican consulate on that wonderful “human interest story” well before Tancredo got involved?
Wasn’t the Mexican consulate in fact using that paper to spread foreign propaganda to Americans?
As for the post, I really don’t think Mahoney is qualified to either construct immigration policy or interpret legal documents. The bill says the aid has to be given recklessly or knowingly.
Further, Mahoney’s position is deeply immoral: his position encourages illegal immigration and makes a bad situation worse.
March 26th, 2006 at 3:49 pmSIX MAJOR TERRORIST PLOTS A YEAR FROM WHITE SUPREMACISTS.
NONE FROM MEXICANS.
The enemy you fear looks JUST LIKE YOU.
Since Mexicans have worked at next to no pay for four centuries in California, they earned a humane immigration and guest worker program.
But the white supremacists are afraid of their skin and their culture.
That’s why they build bombs and conspire to blow up our cities. WHITE SUPREMACISTS are the enemy to fear, not Arabs, and certainly not Mexicans.
One million people march in Los Angeles, and not a single reported crime.
These people are gold.
March 26th, 2006 at 4:04 pm#77. Not really. Quick time line: INS threatens to deport the kid. Denver Post reports this. And ask the Mexican Consulate for its input for the story. Tancredo then gets mad and says deport the kid. Denver Post opinion pages calls out tancredo for the racist that he is. Then a Good Samaritan steps forward and picks up future college cost. Thus tancredo says toss the Good Samaritan in jail.
March 26th, 2006 at 4:17 pm#37-kATY
The flyer you referred to is an anti immigration stunt. By saying that all illegal aliens get SS the woman is spouting the puke tancredo line.
If they pay into the system, they can get money out of the system, however, most of the illegals work for wages under the table, pay no taxes, do not pay into SS. So, they get nothing.
A big scam in the states operated by ADM and others is to have the illegal fill out W-2 form and then not send them in. They then deduct from the $5 an hour they pay them income tax and other taxes, but do not send the money in. So, in effect, they are getting the guys work for $4 an hour.
ADM, a strong Bush supporter, has thousands of sub-contractors who pull the above scam on illegals.
By the way Katy, I am from a small coal mining town in Southern Illinois.
#57 BLAH
Your name fits you perfectly. I am an ultra-liberal, do not want SS changed because there is nothing wrong with it if Bush would stop his quarterly raids on the money sent into the system.
What I am saying in my post is this. Why in the hell would the US government make my wife jump thru hoops in order to get my benefits that I have earned? Why would they set up barriers in an effort to keep women like my wife from fulfilling the obligations to collect benefits.
I talaked with a woman who has been trying for 7 years to get a visa or passport or something to get into the states but is turned down routinely. I googled the matter and found hundreds more.
WHY?
March 26th, 2006 at 4:22 pmI have never been impressed with this man. He’s an all out racist and destroyer of public lands.
He reminds me of these right wing fundies who believe they have the supreme right to dominate people less fortunate then them and to destroy the planet before they get raptured into oblivion.
He wouldn’t recognize Jesus today if he was standing in front of him.
March 26th, 2006 at 4:33 pm#20
I’d beg to differ. One’s religious faith may be personal but it is seldom private. When it comes to Christianity, the Radical Right gets it wrong, but sadly the Secular Left doesn’t get it.
March 26th, 2006 at 4:40 pmSeems to me that someone whose last name ends in a vowel might be a little more tolerant of folks with immigration/emigration issues…
A Republican is someone who can’t drive by a treehouse without fantasizing about pulling up the ladder…
March 26th, 2006 at 4:43 pmThere is Paul in LA, whom I know is a liberal and I thought there was a Paul in Mexico here for awhile that WAS a conservative, past tense, as many people NOW are. If that’s not you, my apologies. I wouldn’t expect you to admit it if you were. In any case, the cost of living in Mexico is quite less then the cost of living here. Other than that, I have no answer for you besides mexico should have it’s own Social Security system just like ours, or better. Every country should. You almost sounded like you would prefer to privatize it.
March 26th, 2006 at 4:43 pmThere is no “secular left”, you moron. I’ll agree with Abby in #20 and ask you to walk your dog-eared GOP/factor talking points outside. We don’t want them crapping up the place in here.
March 26th, 2006 at 4:46 pmThe Mosaic Law clearly states over and over again “There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you” (Numbers 15:16) because the people of Israel were aliens in other lands.
March 26th, 2006 at 4:57 pmGOP gruesome old Pharisees
A humane immigration policy: use political pressure to “encourage” Mexican & other corrupt governments to reform, offer equitable treatment to all their citizens, encourage land reform, small business, etc.
The flood of illegal immigrants will only stop when their home countries have something to offer besides poverty and oppression.
The fact is now: a cheap labor force of illegals is DESIRED ABOVE ALL by agri-biz & other industries who are big Republican donors. They spew their anti-immigrant hate while depending upon illegals to lower their costs.
Another fact: illegals pay taxes. They have social security tax taken from their paychecks and cannot claim any benefits because they are illegal. The ignorant rant about them sucking our economy dry; they don’t know that their presence here encouraged by the rich; they are exploited; they do pay taxes. The services that they get are offset by what they pay in, I’ll betcha.
March 26th, 2006 at 5:02 pmI’d rather just shoot all conservatives and Republicans. I’m an “evil, secular, socialist, leftist like Hitler” (sarcasm off), but I’ll settle for deporting your kind until we get around to the final solution. Neither Clinton is my “leader”, far too centrist for me, and you can have Feinstein, you moron. She’s no Democrat, except in the Zel Miller sense.
Its nice to see some people in CA are not as stupid as they show in the news. Well, at least two, you and Senator. Feinstein. Thank God there is one elected person in the Democratic party who actually looks out for AMERICAN low wage jobs. Seems like everyone else this this party has sold out the working class man for cheap votes. God, I might have to vote Republican!!!! Damn that will hurt, but at least i’ll have a job and still get to speak English. Until they ship my job overseas! Or ship in cheap labor to replace me !!
Comment by David
You are incredibly ignorant, and just the kind of person that would be swayed by Hitler in Germany in the 30s, or anywhere else crypto and proto-fascist demagogues could use immigrant scapegoating to put one past you. Hey! You voted for Bush, didn’t you? I rest my case. You have a low paying job because you are a schmuck who votes for schmucks who serve your corporate masters, not because immigrants come here and take jobs you don’t want, not because of the low work, but because of the low wage. I’d pick cotton for 30/per hour. Why do you think garbagemen make more than teachers. And useless shills and con men like Ken Lay and GOP K street criminals make the really big bucks.
March 26th, 2006 at 5:07 pmFor # 39: He represents Metro-Denver in an area that used to be all rural. He may be vulnerable now that the demography is changing then again this is from his congressional web site:
The 6th Congressional District is centered on Centennial, Littleton and Douglas County — which until the 1970s was a sparsely-populated patch near the foothills just east of the Front Range. In the 1990s, it was the fastest-growing county in the United States, as young families moved into 35-acre “ranchettes” or subdivisions around Castle Rock and Parker just south of the Denver Tech Center. To the west, it includes much of Jefferson County, including part of the mountain communities of Evergreen and Park County. To the east, it goes through much of Arapahoe County and lightly-settled Elbert County. Most of this area is open but developing as the Colorado economy speeds up.
Two generations ago, most people in metro Denver lived in the city itself and its tree-shaded sidewalks. Today, three-quarters of metro Denver residents live outside the city in suburbs and subdivisions raised up in the 1990’s on bare rolling land with magnificent views of the Rocky Mountains.
March 26th, 2006 at 5:13 pmHi. While I think that no politician should reference the Bible, for they often misquote it, they are both using it for their own gain. They reference the Bible, knowing they fully violate it’s teachings on a regular basis. Both the Democratic and Republican parties are guilty of this, and I pray one day that a savior of our own (political savior that is) who is an independent or third party will put this kind of stuff to rest.
The public as a whole (that includes me) refuse to act. We deserve everything we get. Not voting to keep your conscience clear isn’t a safe thing to do. If you vote for Hillary OR Tancredo, that makes you just another part of the problem, in my opinion.
I say screw the whole world, take our money and investments in other countries home, bring our troops home, put them on the border, invest in our OWN children, and until every American mouth has been fed, and educated, and able have make a living on their own. THEN we can be a GOOD SAMARITAN to other people.
Any public official that votes ‘Yea’ to dedicating funds and other resources to other nations should be voted out of office.
Ok, end of rant. Have a good day!
March 26th, 2006 at 5:52 pmHow can illegal immigrants pay Social Security taxes when they don’t have a Social Security number? I would like to see a detailed economic analysis of the consequences, for the United States of the twenty billion dollars a year sent to Mexico by Mexicans working in the United States. Also, George Bush said that illegal immigrants are taking jobs that Americans won’t do. What are these jobs: roofing, painting, working in the meat packing industry, or what? I would like to see a list of such jobs, and know the origin of the list. George Bush should have told us that.
March 26th, 2006 at 6:52 pmSo you’d go back and toss out all the writings of Tom Paine, ML King, William Lord Garrison, and nearly every other effective public speaker for reform in US history?
No, I wouldn’t. But those men were also not government officials, and they lived in a different time than we do now.
But I would remind you that religion was invoked on the other side of all of those issues as well. And Paine, from what I understand, was an outspoken critic of organized religion and the scriptures.
March 26th, 2006 at 7:06 pmSuch vile hypocrisy by the right wing. They torture and kill Iraqis without a thought. They’re racist and full of hate. They want to make being a good samaritan a crime. The Christian right in reality is anti-Christian and have turned Christianity upside down. If Jesus were alive today, they would lock him in Gitmo and throw away the key. They haven’t a clue as to what real Christians are.
March 26th, 2006 at 7:32 pm#91
Here’s one way that illegals pay taxes without a social security number:
http://www.cbsnews.com/ stories/ 2003/ 04/ 14/ politics/ main549153.shtml
illegals also pay other taxes, they purchase from our stores, they pay tolls, excise taxes. When they go to doctors & hospitals they pay full price, thus with other poor people subsidizing those who have health insurance.
They earn low wages so that the food you eat costs you less money.
Their employers deduct taxes from their pay checks; the government collects this money but the illegal worker does not GET a tax return at the end of the year.
I REALLY have a wish dream that those who rail against illegal immigrants could walk a mile in their shoes. Or perhaps talk with their own ancestors who came here poor and “wretched refuse” from other shores.
March 26th, 2006 at 7:36 pmRepublicans own the ‘Jesus’ franchise. They bought it back in the early 80’s. Nothing pisses off a Republican more than a Democrat who imfringes on their trademark.
Comment by Innocent Bystander — March 26, 2006 @ 12:32 pm
Obviously another loan from the Rev. Moon to the religious right………wonder what he asks for in exchange for all he “gives” them?
March 26th, 2006 at 7:56 pmWhat does the bible know! It was probably written by a bunch of limp wristed commie leftwing moonbats.
March 26th, 2006 at 7:57 pmIsn’t it funny that the Bible is always linked to illegal immigration?
That’s because they are BOTH racist ‘issues.’ The Bible is CHOCKFULL of racism.
It shares that state with the Torah (of course) and the Koran (donchaknow).
Loads of racism, piles and piles of jingoist propaganda about who is, and who isn’t, blessed.
What plenty of people like about Jesus is that he appears to be arguing for the elimination not of immigrants, but the elimination of BIGOTRY.
Now THAT is a revolutionary message — one the Thomas Jefferson EMBRACED with both hands, partly at the request of John Adams.
How many Republican Christians will EVER sweep the house and find the piece of silver which they lost? How many have any chance of EVER finding what they have thrown out in order to embrace INTOLERANCE, and the pride of having so much silver their Mexican maid has to sweep up the fallen pieces, because they can’t be bothered to bend?
Find a RIGID CHRISTIAN, and you have found someone who has NEVER met Jesus. No humility, just dogma on top of dogma, hatred on top of hatred, rationalization and excuse on top of rationalization and excuse.
RIGID CHRISTIANS BREAK right where they need to bend. Too bad for them.
March 26th, 2006 at 8:25 pmBlah
March 26th, 2006 at 9:07 pmIf “Rational” Deism allows owning another human being and rape as Jefferson was known to have done Ill take my theism any day.
A man has a right to defend his home and a nation has a right to defend its borders.
The Bible verse describing how to treat a foreigner most likely assumes that person was there lawfully and is a poor defense of the liberal position. If any of you has a better reference Id like to hear it.
March 26th, 2006 at 9:38 pmI stumbled on this board while doing a good search to read what Hillary actually said. I also wanted to know the parameters of the bill in which she directed the comment. After getting my answers, I would agree that Hillary is right in this case. Outlawing even basic aid would be contradictory to the teachings of Christ.
I would say that I am probably as conservative as you can get and I am a Christian. I was shocked and saddened to read this page. It is full of hypocrisy, stereotypes and hate. Which strangely are the very things, which seem to enrage you about Christians.
Many of you will stop reading this at some point because it challenges what you believe in and you are uncomfortable with challenge. Many of you will call me a name or claim that I am ignorant without you yourself finding credible material to back your own accusations. However, I write this for those that will read it to the end. Not necessarily because I feel that, those people will change everything that they believe in instantly. Instead, my goal is to expose them to what I believe is a viewpoint that their “tolerant” circle of friends would say is ignorant so that they do not have to refute it on its merits.
I am not going come on here and say that all people who say that they are Christians are good people or that they all do good things. The foundation of the Christian faith is realizing that we all of sin and fallen short of the glory of God. However, through the grace of Jesus and our belief in him, we are saved. For this reason when a Christian sins it doesn’t necessarily follow that that person is a hypocrite (though some Christians are. Just like there are non-Christian hypocrites.) Nevertheless, those who misunderstand or have different agendas throw the hypocrite label on Christians far too often. Christians know that sin is inevitable and that Jesus was and is the only person that will ever live a sin free life.
Christians are judged harshly because we are lead by God to walk a path that is perfectly straight and free of sin. People mistakenly confuse this goal as Christian is viewing themselves as Holy and without sin. Ignorance to our beliefs makes our sin seem like the ultimate in hypocrisy and so we are discounted.
So what is the point? The point is that the Bible marks the path for us to follow even though through immaturity and the pursuit of self we will often stray from the path of righteousness. The path is best followed by denying self, and by letting God dictate what is best for our lives through his Word. Liberals possess many of the actions valued by God in abundance. The Republican’s do not have a monopoly on God but there are some clear instances where the Democratic Party has strayed from righteousness.
I believe that the Bible is the word of God. It was written by man but it was 100% God inspired. The Bible does consist of an Old and a New Testament and it is my belief that the New Testament and the teachings of Jesus free us from the old law and extends to us God’s grace. Both Christians and non-Christians can use individual verses from the Bible for their purpose but the validity of the Bible is at its highest when kept in context.
Now by this time some of you will have obviously found some of the things that I have said to be laughable and/or out right ridiculous. I would say that it is a matter of faith and a matter of perspective. You have all made decision on what you believe to be true. However, I can point to as many areas of your beliefs that appear just as ridiculous to me.
The big bang for instance contradicts the first The First Law of Thermodynamics. I will not get into this in detail because I can point you to a site that can do it much better than I can using scientific principles. If you read the article through you will see that your science fails you. To believe that science currently has pointed us in all the correct directions would be clearing ignoring history. At no time in history has science ever stood the test of time (world being flat, human flight impossible, etc.
This has already gotten longer than it should have but I want to leave you with some thoughts. Christians do believe that some actions are morally wrong. Those in the world of tolerance would argue against such moral stands and paint Christians as bigoted or close-minded. I would pose that these “tolerant†people are then only truly tolerant of people who believe in the same things that they do because they are intolerant to intolerance that does not fit their criteria.
As long as we stay polarized, it seems that American will forever be trapped in a circular logic cycle. I chose Christ. Some people lose their credibility is lost when they do not tolerate people’s right to draw their own moral lines. Christians are able to separate sin from the sinner since it is at the core of our faith. Christians sin as well and so we must only hate the sin that burdens our entire race. However, we recognize in our faith that there are some actions that have been judged as undesirable and thus sin by God. This is what often has our atheistic counterparts crying that we are intolerant bigots. Again, I argue that it is now again only a matter of perspective. Everyone draws his or her own moral line in the sand somewhere. Just because Christians believe that certain acts are immoral that “tolerant people do not why is it nobler to not judge actions as sinful and choose to discriminate against people who have concrete beliefs? Is the idea of tolerance truly tolerance? Alternatively, is it only tolerant to people who conform to its dogma that are allowed to do thing that they perceive as right and just.
I have included passages from Romans below. They are not intended to attack but instead to show the human perspective of Christianity that is often lost.
Paul writes in
Romans 7:14-25
14I can anticipate the response that is coming: “I know that all God’s commands are spiritual, but I’m not. Isn’t this also your experience?” Yes. I’m full of myself–after all, I’ve spent a long time in sin’s prison. 15What I don’t understand about myself is that I decide one way, but then I act another, doing things I absolutely despise. 16So if I can’t be trusted to figure out what is best for myself and then do it, it becomes obvious that God’s command is necessary.
17But I need something more! For if I know the law but still can’t keep it, and if the power of sin within me keeps sabotaging my best intentions, I obviously need help! 18I realize that I don’t have what it takes. I can will it, but I can’t do it. 19I decide to do good, but I don’t really do it; I decide not to do bad, but then I do it anyway. 20My decisions, such as they are, don’t result in actions. Something has gone wrong deep within me and gets the better of me every time.
21It happens so regularly that it’s predictable. The moment I decide to do good, sin is there to trip me up. 22I truly delight in God’s commands, 23but it’s pretty obvious that not all of me joins in that delight. Parts of me covertly rebel, and just when I least expect it, they take charge.
24I’ve tried everything and nothing helps. I’m at the end of my rope. Is there no one who can do anything for me? Isn’t that the real question?
25The answer, thank God, is that Jesus Christ can and does. He acted to set things right in this life of contradictions where I want to serve God with all my heart and mind, but am pulled by the influence of sin to do something totally different.
Romans 8
The Solution Is Life on God’s Terms
1With the arrival of Jesus, the Messiah, that fateful dilemma is resolved. Those who enter into Christ’s being-here-for-us no longer have to live under a continuous, low-lying black cloud. 2A new power is in operation. The Spirit of life in Christ, like a strong wind, has magnificently cleared the air, freeing you from a fated lifetime of brutal tyranny at the hands of sin and death.
3God went for the jugular when he sent his own Son. He didn’t deal with the problem as something remote and unimportant. In his Son, Jesus, he personally took on the human condition, entered the disordered mess of struggling humanity in order to set it right once and for all. The law code, weakened as it always was by fractured human nature, could never have done that.
The law always ended up being used as a Band-Aid on sin instead of a deep healing of it. 4And now what the law code asked for but we couldn’t deliver is accomplished as we, instead of redoubling our own efforts, simply embrace what the Spirit is doing in us.
5Those who think they can do it on their own end up obsessed with measuring their own moral muscle but never get around to exercising it in real life. Those who trust God’s action in them find that God’s Spirit is in them–living and breathing God! 6Obsession with self in these matters is a dead end; attention to God leads us out into the open, into a spacious, free life. 7Focusing on the self is the opposite of focusing on God. Anyone completely absorbed in self ignores God, ends up thinking more about self than God. That person ignores who God is and what he is doing. 8And God isn’t pleased at being ignored.
9But if God himself has taken up residence in your life, you can hardly be thinking more of yourself than of him. Anyone, of course, who has not welcomed this invisible but clearly present God, the Spirit of Christ, won’t know what we’re talking about. 10But for you who welcome him, in whom he dwells–even though you still experience all the limitations of sin–you yourself experience life on God’s terms. 11It stands to reason, doesn’t it, that if the alive-and-present God who raised Jesus from the dead moves into your life, he’ll do the same thing in you that he did in Jesus, bringing you alive to himself? When God lives and breathes in you (and he does, as surely as he did in Jesus), you are delivered from that dead life. With his Spirit living in you, your body will be as alive as Christ’s!
12So don’t you see that we don’t owe this old do-it–yourself life one red cent. 13There’s nothing in it for us, nothing at all. The best thing to do is give it a decent burial and get on with your new life. 14God’s Spirit beckons. There are things to do and places to go!
15This resurrection life you received from God is not a timid, grave-tending life. It’s adventurously expectant, greeting God with a childlike “What’s next, Papa?” 16God’s Spirit touches our spirits and confirms who we really are. We know who he is, and we know who we are: Father and children. 17And we know we are going to get what’s coming to us–an unbelievable inheritance! We go through exactly what Christ goes through. If we go through the hard times with him, then we’re certainly going to go through the good times with him! 18That’s why I don’t think there’s any comparison between the present hard times and the coming good times. 19The created world itself can hardly wait for what’s coming next. 20Everything in creation is being more or less held back. God reins it in 21until both creation and all the creatures are ready and can be released at the same moment into the glorious times ahead. Meanwhile, the joyful anticipation deepens.
22All around us we observe a pregnant creation. The difficult times of pain throughout the world are simply birth pangs. But it’s not only around us; it’s within us. The Spirit of God is arousing us within. We’re also feeling the birth pangs. 23These sterile and barren bodies of ours are yearning for full deliverance. 24That is why waiting does not diminish us, any more than waiting diminishes a pregnant mother. We are enlarged in the waiting. We, of course, don’t see what is enlarging us. 25But the longer we wait, the larger we become, and the more joyful our expectancy.
26Meanwhile, the moment we get tired in the waiting, God’s Spirit is right alongside helping us along. If we don’t know how or what to pray, it doesn’t matter. He does our praying in and for us, making prayer out of our wordless sighs, our aching groans. 27He knows us far better than we know ourselves, knows our pregnant condition, and keeps us present before God. 28That’s why we can be so sure that every detail in our lives of love for God is worked into something good.
29God knew what he was doing from the very beginning. He decided from the outset to shape the lives of those who love him along the same lines as the life of his Son. The Son stands first in the line of humanity he restored. We see the original and intended shape of our lives there in him. 30After God made that decision of what his children should be like, he followed it up by calling people by name. After he called them by name, he set them on a solid basis with himself. And then, after getting them established, he stayed with them to the end, gloriously completing what he had begun.
31So, what do you think? With God on our side like this, how can we lose? 32If God didn’t hesitate to put everything on the line for us, embracing our condition and exposing himself to the worst by sending his own Son, is there anything else he wouldn’t gladly and freely do for us? 33And who would dare tangle with God by messing with one of God’s chosen? 34Who would dare even to point a finger? The One who died for us–who was raised to life for us!-is in the presence of God at this very moment sticking up for us. 35Do you think anyone is going to be able to drive a wedge between us and Christ’s love for us? There is no way! Not trouble, not hard times, not hatred, not hunger, not homelessness, not bullying threats, not backstabbing, not even the worst sins listed in Scripture:
36They kill us in cold blood because they hate you.
We’re sitting ducks; they pick us off one by one.
37None of this fazes us because Jesus loves us. 38I’m absolutely convinced that nothing–nothing living or dead, angelic or demonic, today or tomorrow, 39high or low, thinkable or unthinkable–absolutely nothing can get between us and God’s love because of the way that Jesus our Master has embraced us.
March 26th, 2006 at 11:33 pmThe big bang for instance contradicts the first The First Law of Thermodynamics.
You show your ignorance of Physics because ‘relativity theroy’ states all laws are relative and each law of physics will fail if taken to the extreme as in a black hole or in the instance of the big bang.
Christianity…(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. …Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.
March 27th, 2006 at 12:08 am…Thomas Jefferson
The big bang for instance contradicts the first The First Law of Thermodynamics.
Comment by Amazing — March 26, 2006 @ 11:33 pm
The First Law of Thermodynamics asserts that matter or its energy equivalent can neither be created nor destroyed under natural circumstances.(Quoted from your own website)
Since the Big Bang is a one time occurance in the 14 billion year history of the universe as we know it, I for one would postulate it is not a natural circumstances, but an unnatural occurance that exists outside the space-time continuance and as such outside the limits of the laws based on that space-time continuance……..
March 27th, 2006 at 12:15 am#79: I tend to trust the timeline here:
http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/tancredo.htm
I find it extraordinarily difficult to believe that the INS was ever threatening to deport Apodaca, although that might be a possibility.
As I mentioned above, stopping illegal immigration is actually the humanitarian choice. Those who present continuing illegal immigration as the humanitarian choice really have no clue. Perhaps they’re more concerned with saving 10 cents on the price of a head of lettuce or something.
As for the march, this photo shows at a glance what its supporters really believe.
The Georgia version of the march was organized by a former Mexican government official.
I’m sure that’s going to play real good in Peoria.
March 27th, 2006 at 12:16 am#100-Amazing, that was quite the post. I am sure your beliefs bring you great comfort. Good for you. But I would like to address your statement.
March 27th, 2006 at 2:47 am“at no time in history has science ever stood the test of time (world being flat, human flight impossible, etc.” Were you being serious?!? If you were, I feel that you should stick to sharing your religious beliefs, and leave science to the scientists. The belief that the world was flat was NEVER a scientific theory. It was a belief held by the ignorant and the fearful, and disproved by those who refused to accept that as “the gospel”. Human flight impossible? It still is, as far as I know. But those with imagination found a way to accomodate the human limitations, and made machines that were capable of flight, operated by humans. Neither of your examples are representative of scientific beliefs. But both were probably firm beliefs of those who undoubtedly believed in God. In the spirit of just trying to share knowledge with each other, I appreciate your “sharing”, but I do not share your belief system. I do feel that whatever fulfills your needs is great, for you. But I have to draw the line at misrepresentation of “scientific beliefs” coming from a person with such a strong religious backround. It could predjudice your “impartiality”, regarding things that threaten your faith. But good luck to you.
“If “Rational†Deism allows owning another human being and rape as Jefferson was known to have done Ill take my theism any day.” –troll
• There is no evidence that Thomas Jefferson ever ‘raped’ anyone. Or had sex with any of his slaves, or for that matter anyone but his one wife — NONE.
• Thomas Jefferson owned slaves because he received them in his wive’s brother’s Will. And the law in Virginia and elsewhere required freed slaves to LEAVE THE STATE, so they would be vulnerable to reenslavement, violence, and bigotry if “freed.” There is no evidence that Jefferson maltreated these slaves — on the contrary, they probably lived fairly pleasant lives under the circumstances.
THE RIGHT WING HAS BEEN SLANDERING JEFFERSON SINCE DAY ONE. They’re the Purple Heart Bandaid boys and girls who don’t give a damn about America. They just want to make money.
Money’s more important than the truth — just ask any Republican.
March 27th, 2006 at 3:39 amOh, and,
RESISTANCE TO TYRANNY IS LOVE OF GOD.
–Thomas Jefferson’s preferred Official Motto of the Untited States of America.
March 27th, 2006 at 3:41 amComment by Amazing — March 26, 2006 @ 11:33 pm
Hmm. I think you underestimate the people on this board when you state that you don’t think they will read your post to the end. Most people here are Progressives or Democrats. We like education and reading. I think you have us confused with Republicans. We don’t ban books. We read them. Even the bible.
And it is my education in science that leads me to educate you in the difference between science and belief, which is why creationism or intelligent design are not scientific theories, for example.
In order to be a theory, something has to be, by scientific definition, capable of being proven or disproven, by proving or disproving the opposite. Since you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God, both Creationism and iIntelligent Design, are not theories. They are BELIEFS.
Here’s the sticky part. I don’t think I should have to operate according to your set of beliefs, any more than I think you should have to operate under mine. And the Christians you speak of seem like some mighty interesting folks, but what about all of those other folks that call themselves Christians, but who in fact, would be quite far from your description of Christian. Are you the arbiter of all that is Christian? Of the true, one and only Christianity? Of the one and only interpretation of the The Word?
And fortunately for us, we have the Constitution which both envisioned and managed that problem quite well. Freedom OF religion is freedom FROM religion.
If you could convince the folks on your side of the bible to leave me and mine alone, I’d appreciate it.
Thanks.
March 27th, 2006 at 6:28 amTancredo should have called Hillary out as dishonest and partisan on the issue of immigration.
I agree with President Bush that the debate should be civil. Hillary’s comments were not.
March 27th, 2006 at 8:37 am#101 The big bang for instance contradicts the first The First