Goldberg and Podhoretz Still Don’t Get It
Goldberg and Podhoretz Still Don’t Get It
Last night, journalist Jill Carroll issued a statement. Here’s is an excerpt:
I also gave a TV interview to the Iraqi Islamic Party shortly after my release. The party had promised me the interview would never be aired on television, and broke their word. At any rate, fearing retribution from my captors, I did not speak freely…
I want to be judged as a journalist, not as a hostage. I remain as committed as ever to fairness and accuracy–to discovering the truth–and so I will not engage in polemics. But let me be clear: I abhor all who kidnap and murder civilians, and my captors are clearly guilty of both crimes.
Jonah Goldberg and John Podhoretz of the National Review feel this statement somehow justifies their attacks on Carroll in the hours after her release. It doesn’.
As I explained before Carroll’s statement was released, future comments by Carroll “may not be completely consistent with what she said moments after being released” but “Carroll is the only one who know the facts.” (Goldberg falsely claims that ThinkProgress and others “took her initial statements at face value.”) The point was that, until the full story is revealed by Carroll, it is inappropriate for pundits like Goldberg and Podhoretz to attack her personally.
Goldberg and Podhoretz both suggested that Carroll was suffering from a mental disorder. (Goldberg: “maybe JPod’s right about Stockholm syndrome.”) Goldberg said that he was “getting a bad vibe” from Carroll and she was “really starting to bug me.” He followed up by asserting that her “moral center” was not “in good order” and she wasn’t “thinking clearly.”
Now Goldberg and Podhoretz think I should apologize to them for criticizing their remarks. I will not. (Podhoretz claims that my earlier call for him to apologize – which I stand by – damages “civil discourse.†Goldberg, to his credit, apologizes for suggesting she was a terrorist sympathizer.) The attacks on her mental state and her character were completely unjustified. Carroll’s statement only underscores that.
UPDATE: JPod responds:
JUDD LEGUM… [JPod]
…of ThinkProgress is, basically, unbelievably dishonest. He writes the following: “Podhoretz… suggested that [Jill] Carroll was suffering from a mental disorder.” I never suggested any such thing. I said, correctly, that people would might think she was suffering from Stockholm Syndrome — which is not a mental disorder in any case, but a form of post-traumatic stress.
Podhoretz said “[A]fter watching someone who was a hostage for three months say on television she was well-treated because she wasn’t beaten or killed…I expect there will be some Stockholm Syndrome talk in the coming days.” Podhoretz didn’t say Carroll had Stockholm syndrome but he clearly suggested it. (Jonah Goldberg understood that, writing a few hours later “maybe JPod’s right about Stockholm syndrome.â€)
What’s incredibly dishonest is Podhoretz pretending, after it’s fairly clear the interview televised after her release was not evidence of Stockholm Syndrome, that his statement was purely about what other people might suggest.
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Good job Judd for calling these bastards to account.
But honestly, who really cares what they think? Go to hell, both of you. How’s that for civil discourse? It amazes me that these slimeballs attack and attack without knowing the facts and then claim others are not engaging in “civil discourse”.
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:29 amFeeding the true believers red meat is how they make their money.
All that girly “understanding” and “compassion” doesn’t feed the bulldog.
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:29 amRight wing fascist talking heads never apologize for anything, so why should TP apologize to them? Jonah Goldberg is one of the most vile Repubs, just like his mom Lucianne, so he can drop dead! Shame on all of them who defend the vile Bush Regime!
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:41 amI just find it amazing that anyone pays attention to the drooling and ranting of overprivileged little girlymen chickenhawk bedwetters like pantsload and pod.
How dare they impugn a woman who’s got more stones than they ever will?
My guess is that’s the root of it… they’ve got a bad case of penis envy.
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:43 amDark Souls…
Oh lordy:I DEMAND HE APOLOGIZE… [JPod] …to Jill Carroll. I’m speaking of Judd Legum at Think Progress, who wrote these words on Thursday before demanding I apologize for observing that Stockholm Syndrome questions were going to be raised about Car…
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:43 amafter briefly reading your post and not any links, it is my conclusion
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:44 amthat dough-boy and j-scrod are both worthless, air-stealing bufoons
Another gift from the bush adm is that the usa not longer maintains any pretence of exceptionality,, no facsade of moral rightness and absolutely no foundation that allows it to
moralize about itself as representing either of the above.
Apart from roughly one third of the us’ers, who the two whores above epitomize, no-one else in the world will grant the usa its former parameters of idealism, however undeserved. It used to be a fairly good show but now the audience has peeked behind the curtain and seen the mad monstrosity that goes for the amerikan soul.
It will never be the same again.
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:52 amHas Jonah Goldberg, and his mom, ever apologized for all the crap they spewed about President Clinton and Monica? Nope they have never retracted any of the bile! Jonah has serious issues about females who are not Republican controlled robots, so he dislikes Jill Carrol the same as he did with Monica!
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:56 amThe real problem with the righties is a complete inability to see past ego and acknowledge a mistake. These guys won’t back down and admit they we wrong because of some right-wing idea of machoism, probably fueled by some Adam-came-before-Eve religious justification. Goes hand-in-hand with a refusal to ask for directions (although in my case I just assume the person I’m asking directions from is gonna send me on a wild goose chase just to be a prick). They’re just taking their cues from Bush anyway: “Hey, if he doesn’t admit his mistakes (or doesn’t think he has made any), then why should I?”
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:02 amAs a permanently disabled Vet who volunteered in VN I am disgusted by these characters. I don’t see them volunteering to put their asses at risk. Yet the feel ordained to pass judgement on real journalists. Thes are the signs of true cowardly slugs not worth the weight of one’s boot! They feel they can look down on on others from the bottom. I would love to see how they would behave in simular situation. I can hear them now squealing like the pigs they are “Bush the war criminal! , Praise be to Osama, Death to america” and thats what they would be saying after they were home in the USA for a year!
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:12 amThe Freepers have a couple threads that are accusing her of being a “plant”, suggesting that this was a set up from the beginning. Somehow they’ve made the leap from Carroll to Rachel Corrie, as well. (Evidently they are trying to say that she is a willing martyr on the side of insurgents.)
Suggestions of this nature are so incredibly vile and reprehensible that words fail me.
But what do you expect when the “intellectuals” on that side of the equation are folks like JPod and Jonah.
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:23 amJudd,
I’m in agreemant with you a a good portion (definitely not always) of the time. But, give it an f-in’ break already. Have another look at their original comments before you get all crazed.
The main thing these guys expressed, especially Podhoretz, was questioning whether one who was not under duress or coercion would have made the comments she did. There was a lot worse said on the far right blogs (mainly from sites I’ve never heard of until now; but maybe that was their goal – who is this Debbie Schlussel woman anyway?).
Now we know more about Carroll when she made the staements. There were guns at this poor woman’s head. And she states that she would have never made such statements were it not for threats by her terrorist captors.
Goldberg, whose comments I thought to be premature and too conclusive without sufficent facts, recognized his error and graciously apologized to her. Don’t see that often on either side of the blogs. However, I hope he and others learn a lesson that bloggers seem to have a hard time dealing with – if you don’t know enough to comment intielligently, hold off or at least frame your thoughts in that vein. Otherwise you risk looking like an ass.
Nevertheless, the attacks here and elsewhere on Podhoretz are as ridiculous as some of the other nutscase righties’ attacks on Carroll (see again Schlussel) when her initial comments were aired.
Speculating that one might be suffering from Stockholm Syndrome after hearing of their statements after being freed (as was initially reported; we now know that they were made when she was not yet free, but still under a form of captivity by the Islamic Party) is in the realm of reasonable speculation.
To claim, as Judd insists on doing, that it was an attack on her “mental state” is as off the charts ridiculous as some of the other stuff we’ve been hearing that actually were vicious attacks.
Let’s move on and get back to something of substance.
Now about this “unannounced” visit by Straw and Rice to Iraq. Doesn’t it say something about our failure there that 3 years in, US and UK leaders can’t have an announced visit? Discuss amongst yourselves.
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:33 amYa know those guys talk all that trash, but just googlle back in time, look at the imgaes from other wars, with helicopters down, Remember those Soldiers also doing Propaganda Films?
Dumass Goldberg seems to think he’s some kind od superman, yet if that Was Jonass Goldberg They would be making him squeal like a pig in deliverance, and he would be the ‘Beeatch’ that would do WHATEVER it takes to save his sorry Ass.
Remember those POW films Jonass Goldterd?
Come out ans play Mr Jonas are you BRAVE enough to Go to IRAQ? Or are you just a Noise maker?
I say you are but a Noisemaker.
And a Cowardly one at that, go to Iraq Mr Goldberg…
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:37 amI DARE YOU
Yeh the Middle East has been Terrorists for 100 years now…
The German opportunist, Gerhard Hildebrand, who was expelled from the Party for defending imperialism, and who could today be a leader of the so-called “Social-Democratic” Party of Germany, supplements Hobson well by his advocacy of a “United States of Western Europe” (without Russia) for the purpose of “joint” action… against the African Negroes, against the “great Islamic movement,” for the maintenance of a “powerful army and navy,” against a “Sino-Japanese coalition,”* [Gerhard Hildebrand, Die Errschutterung der Industrieherrschaft und des Industriesozialismus (The Shattering of the Rule of Industrialism and Industrial Socialism--Tr.), 1910, p. 229 et seq.] etc.
The description of “British imperialism” in Schulze-Gaevernitz’s book reveals the same parasitical traits. The national income of Great Britain approximately doubled from 1865 to 1898, while the income “from abroad” increased ninefold in the same period. While the “merit” of imperialism is that it “trains the Negro to habits of industry” (not without coercion, of course …), the “danger” of imperialism lies in that “Europe will shift the burden of physical toil –first agricultural and mining, then the rougher work in industry–on to the colored races, and itself be content with the role of rentier, and in this way, perhaps, pave the way for the economic, and later, the political emancipation of the colored races.”
100 years this Capitalist Empire Sheeaht Has gone on. When will the World Say enough is enough?
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:41 amThe People have spoken we say enough Empire Building. Enough Wars for Booty, enough Wars for Profit.
Enough Already.
Thanks Judd for standing your ground.We must never ever give into these CHICKENHAWKS. They build strawmen we tear them down.
Goldberg really needs to do a sharp review of his history of his culture in WW2 as Jews were used by hitler to spew his propgranda by promises of food,medicine and yes freedom for them and their families.
Pod-hause needs to do the same research it might do some enlightenment for their brain stems….
Never Give Up Never Give In.. Force Their Feet To The Fire Of Truth ..
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:42 amThis is a clear example of the difference between a lefty and a righty blogger. It is no wonder reports from the left blogs end up being picked up by the MSM. We are the party of truth not slander. We are patient not rabid. We are not afraid to take unpopular stances for the sake of fairness. We do not prejudge, we listen and seek to understand.
Bravo for Think Progress for keeping the high ground on Carroll. It’s these moments where the Righties will toss the baseball through the window and then point the finger at you. But instead, you’ve caught them red-handed.
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:43 amRice and Straw are but War mongers for the Empire, IO find nothing Interesting in the Unscheduled visits into Safe Zones.
If Condi wants to impress ME, put on a Suit, yeh like that flight suit her and Duhbya looked so GOOFY in, except make it a Army Costume this time Condi, pick up a gun and go the Battle, get your ass Shot, fragged, or Mentally Screwed up.
Then and ONLY then will Condi the Liar Neo-CON, Capitalist BOOB, actually garner any Respect.
Ptooh Ptooh I SPIT in the Direction of the Empire of BUSH.
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:46 amPtooh Ptooh you make me ILL BUSH and CONDI
Jonah and Poddy-Lite’s “moral centers” wouldn’t be “in good order” if kidnappers weer pointing AK-47s and Kalashnikoffs at their heads. In fact, these two examples of second generation reactionary blather would probably be crying for mommy and daddy before and after being forced to denounce the United Sattes of America for the insurgent cameras.
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:53 amAs far as I’m concerned, Podhoretz and Goldbergs comments, no matter how they are “qualified” by those attempting to explain them were just a few of many snap attacks made made by the right wing commentators and bloggers….a good example was the frenzy on Don Imus’ Program. These guys see conspiracies and attack anything that deviates from their hardline dogma. These guys shoot first, spew their venom and make half assed attempts to clean up any unsightly messes later. Later usually never comes and when it does, nobody notices anyways because their listeners are repeating the lies too loudly to hear anything resembling the truth.
April 2nd, 2006 at 12:11 pmI just spent a month in Ohio and New York City, the first time I have been back in the States for a year and I’m still am trying to get the voices out of my head….Last year I arrived in the midst of the Schavio idiocy. By the way, the Dulles Airport has my vote for the rudest on the planet! Oh yeah,
Rule #1: NEVER APOLOGIZE!!!!!
Well it’s official. John McCain has left his standards behind him. Now he is nothing but a “vote whore”. Nothing matters but the totals, not what he’ll have to do for them. I guess there is no limit to how low they are willing to stoop, as long as the folks will vote for you. That’s nasty.
April 2nd, 2006 at 12:37 pmUH-OH!!! wrong thread!! I beg your pardon…
April 2nd, 2006 at 12:39 pmI am amazed at the amount of vitriol that began to be spewed immediately upon Ms. Carroll’s release. Some of the things said by certain “right-wing” blogs and on certain televised radio shows were the most deplorable, assinine, and humanistically insensitive comments imaginable. I admit to watching this story develop with disgust and disdain.
One thing I can tell you, though, is that the coverage on ThinkProgress called for celebration for Ms. Carroll’s release and the patience required to allow Ms. Carroll to come home and be able to speak for herself in a safe environment. All the blathering and insults that were hurled in Ms. Carroll’s direction did not opt for such an approach and now they have been exposed for the fools that they are. Had the suggestions made by you at ThinkProgress been absorbed and thoughtfully considered, rather than the immediate and baseless attack orchestrated by some, then we would not be having this conversation now and we would not have witnessed perhaps the most abominable of all acts of baselessly turning on a fellow citizen at a time of great need. I am sickened by the whole affair.
Judd, I do think that you need to apologize to Podperson and Golddigger not for the reasons that they demand, but for placing upon them the expectations of compassionate human beings. It is obvious that they do not fall into such a category so it is unreasonable to have such expectations of them.
Welcome home Ms. Carroll.
April 2nd, 2006 at 12:41 pmShe had just ended an experience in which she was forcibly detained, her companion was murdered, and her captors publicly threatened to behead her, yet “It is totally inappropriate to assume that her description of how she was treated is motivated by anything [such as — duh! — threats] other than a desire to tell the truth.â€
You guys are so reliably moronic in virtually everything you say. And of course when you turn out to be (as you inevitably are) wrong, those who disagreed with you still moral monsters.
The Paul Erlichs of political commentary. But that’s okay, because your motives are pure.
April 2nd, 2006 at 1:03 pmHa!! Goldberg’s apology that he got Superman trivia wrong was more heartfelt than his supposed apology about Carroll (but even then, he blames his error on catching a plane). High-larious:
STUPID, STUPID, STUPID [Jonah Goldberg]
April 2nd, 2006 at 1:30 pmSo sorry. I was racing to catch a plane. Zod was in Superman II. Mea culpa.
This is what happens when you speak before you think
April 2nd, 2006 at 1:33 pmFor God’s sake, Stockholm syndrome is NOT a “mental disorder.” I hate it when our side is dishonest. Read this account from another hostage that was printed in today’s Washington Post, wherein he describes quite accurately the cause and effects of Stockholm syndrome.
April 2nd, 2006 at 1:36 pmJudd wrote “”It is totally inappropriate to assume that [Carroll's] description of how she was treated is motivated by anything other than a desire to tell the truth.”
LOL…you are the one who needs to apologize…you got it totally wrong
enjoy eating your hat!
April 2nd, 2006 at 1:51 pmLeisureguy (#26) calm yourself, what that was was an honest mistake from someone who simply didn’t know that it wasn’t a mental disorder. Geeeez
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:01 pmThose two buffoons and their extreme positions pander to their audience of non-thinking viewers. They certainly should be called to anwer for what they say, but I don’t expect anything resembling an apology any time soon.
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:16 pmMeanwhile, the left continues to point out the demagoguery of the right; the left will be vilified, but in the end they will be proven correct.
Just the thought of what these poison-filled hate-mongers will do when their party loses the Congress and later, the Senate and the White House, is chilling.
a prominent attribute of wingnuts is that they are devoid of empathy. That they would jump to criticize someone fresh out of what Jill Carroll went through once again reveals them to be the slope-browed, low-life scum that they are. That either would back off somewhat from the exposure of what they are is only due political expediency.
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:25 pm.
You need to go back and read Goldberg’s comments and JPod’s comments like I did, and then apologize for misrepresenting their statements so badly.
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:26 pmThe morning crew on Faux were actually questioning if Ms Carroll had gained weight. Please deliver me from compassionate conservative christians. They possess none of the attributes they espouse, Also watched McCain spin like a lathe on Russert this AM. Appears to be hitching his wagon to W and Falwell. It shows what this man will do to become president. Morals and convictions were so easily shed.
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:29 pmCarroll’s recent statement should end the ridiculous attacks from the right about her video and interview. Will it? I doubt it. The right has gotten themselves into such a flurry of hate and rage that they probably won’t even acknowledge the Carroll statement, and continue their attacks
http://www.lcoliberal.lbogspot.com
Defending Jill Carroll: Now on LCL
http://www.sunstateactivist.org
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:30 pmProgressive news, analysis, and events: SSA
Sneakypie
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:31 pmDidn’t you hear? She’s preggers with Al Zawarkari’s child! (sarcasm off now).
The comments by right wingers on Jill Carroll perplexed me for awhile. Then I realized that they result from a very deep-seated fear that Jill’s presence evoked: These guys are all afraid that they do not have physical courage, that they are, in fact, wimps. Jill Carroll’s very existence, let alone her release from captivity after 83 days, brings them face to face with their own inadequacies. They could no more go to Iraq as a correspondent, as she has done, than they could fly. They could never survive captivity and deprivation. That she, a 28-year old woman can do what they know they cannot, must be excruciating. So, they distance themsleves from having to face this truth by printing all manner of lies, suppositions and exaggerations about her to avoid looking at the truth about themselves.
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:32 pmI understood the traumatic nature of the events surrounding Jill Carroll’s abduction, confinenment and release. I am glad she was soon in a safe and comfortable environment to clarify her thoughts and correct the record. And for all of you who are sooo critical of the United States (and so quick to excuse the conduct of others) I am delighted that your “humanizing the enemy ” blather was so quickly and thoroughly debunked.
April 2nd, 2006 at 2:52 pmGoldberg gets no credit for that chickenshit buried apology. I went off on this at length at Daily Kos.
Everything about Goldberg’s statements speak to lack of ability to hold himself accountable—to anything. It is the the self-worshipping landscape where monsters are nourished and grow. Goldberg calls Carroll “immoral” and then says he was just being “skeptical,” and that her words “didn’t scan…whcih makes him right!
Jonah Goldberg long ago proved he is a physical coward. With this he proves (once again) he is a moral coward too.
April 2nd, 2006 at 3:05 pmAs administration shills, Goldberg and Podhoretz specialize in lies and, therefore, must live their dishonest existences in fear that an honest journalist may come along, destruying all their corrupt efforts. Jill Carroll represents such a threat.
Good luck, boys. Hope you got a good price for those shriveled little things you called a soul.
April 2nd, 2006 at 3:05 pmI wonder how quickly Dough-P would shit his pants if he were to find himself in the same situation as Carroll.
Of course, that will never happen because Douchebag von Goldberg will never get within 100 miles of Baghdad.
Which means Carroll has more balls than Jonah was born with.
April 2nd, 2006 at 3:33 pmhey, jake, aphrodite, and the rest of you soulless, gutless cowardly assholes, fuck you and Goldberg and Podpiece. Your apologies for disgusting, uncivilized behavior are worth the same as your used toilet paper. Your lies and fearmongering are what created this enemy, as you bought Bish’s egotistical, chickenhawk bullshit lock, stock and barrel. Jill Carroll has more moral center and curage than the entire rightwing noise machine called the mainstream media. You’re all disgustingly anti-Constitution and anti-America.
April 2nd, 2006 at 3:41 pmNow that the left-wing circle jerk has reached what I assume is its climax, let’s have a look at what both jonah and pod actually said:
jonah:
“If you go back and read what I’ve posted, I said that Carroll’s statements didn’t scan. It now looks like she was coerced into making those statements — though we still need to know a lot more. If that’s the whole story, that’s fine with me. I don’t think anyone can fairly begrudge someone saying what they feel they must under such trying circumstances in order to survive. But, most of the lefty emailers — and many bloggers — took her initial statements at face value.”
“Does anyone in their right mind think that Think Progress would be rallying to this woman’s side if she emerged from her captivity saying George W. Bush was right and the people who kidnapped her were terrorist animals? ”
This essentially sums up all of the points he made on the corner. Everyone here is making something out of nothing – I find no actual fault in these statements, much less something worthy of the GED-level insults on this blog.
jpod’s last post was even more fool-proof:
“Judd Legum of ThinkProgress is, basically, unbelievably dishonest. He writes the following: “Podhoretz… suggested that [Jill] Carroll was suffering from a mental disorder.” I never suggested any such thing. I said, correctly, that people would might think she was suffering from Stockholm Syndrome — which is not a mental disorder in any case, but a form of post-traumatic stress. Unless Legum has dyslexia, he is perfectly aware that he overreacted to what I wrote initially and just isn’t man enough to own up to it. He also says I said he should apologize for what he wrote, which is also incredibly dishonest. I specifically made it clear I was parodying his own calls for apologies from writers he clearly despises. What could possibly be the use of such an apology?”
clean up, fellas…you’re creaming yourselves over nothing.
April 2nd, 2006 at 3:42 pmI’ve update this post with my reply to JPod’s latest.
April 2nd, 2006 at 4:42 pmWhat you fail to address is why the prospect of Carroll having Stockholm Syndrome is offensive, or why anyone who would suggest it (however subtley they choose) should be the target of a rebuke…I don’t get it.
April 2nd, 2006 at 4:55 pmShip Goldberg and Podhoretz to Iraq. Let them be kidnapped by those same morons rhat kidnapped Jill Carroll.
April 2nd, 2006 at 5:06 pmWell, you may not find it offensive, which is fine. But I just don’t think it’s right to attack Carroll’s mental state just because she doesn’t say what you think she should say. My position all along is that we should reserve judgement because Carroll is the one who knows the facts.
April 2nd, 2006 at 5:08 pm“My position all along is that we should reserve judgement because Carroll is the one who knows the facts.”
I absolutely agree, and I would argue that Jpod and Jonah’s speculation was admittedly that – only speculation.
But let’s take a moment to skim the comments left by your readers. Aside from a few thoughtful posts, this whole thread is filled with character assassinations, left-wing talking points that would fill the usual pundit’s checklist, and god-awfully uncreative puns on the two NRO bloggers’ names (my favorite was Jonass Goldterd, but there are ties for second place.). It’s absurd – these fellows from NRO weren’t publishing anything as fact…they were making speculatory hypotheses on a developing news story. But for some reason, they set your readers off on crazy, often unrelated tangents. I thought that was what Democratic Underground was for.
April 2nd, 2006 at 5:36 pmBelated happy April Fool’s Day, courtesy of Assclowns of the Week: April Fools Edition. On the spit this week:
“Fat Tony†Scalia
The Boston Archdiocese
The Dept. of Defense
Debra Maggart
The US Army
The US Senate
Neal Boortz
George W. Bush (naturally)
Howard Kaloogian
Right wingnuts for attacking Jill Carroll (and this is quite possibly my most savage and merciless Assclowns deconstruction ever).
Enjoy.
April 2nd, 2006 at 5:57 pmMy contribution at Daily Kos.
For starters, Stockholm Syndrome is indeed a type of “Post Traumatic Stress…Disorder.” That’s what it is: a mental disorder.
April 2nd, 2006 at 6:53 pm#43 said What you fail to address is why the prospect of Carroll having Stockholm Syndrome is offensive, or why anyone who would suggest it (however subtley they choose) should be the target of a rebuke…I don’t get it.
Comment by DammitSteve
Here’s what JPod wrote:
You don’t read insult into that? “It’s wonderful that she’s free, but…”
What the hell is the “but”?
And why does JPod say this: He [Judd] writes the following: “Podhoretz… suggested that [Jill] Carroll was suffering from a mental disorder.” I never suggested any such thing. I said, correctly, that people would might think she was suffering from Stockholm Syndrome — which is not a mental disorder in any case, but a form of post-traumatic stress…
Isn’t he implying that it would have been an insult if he said she was suffering from a mental disorder? And his denial is wrong. It is a form of PTSD, which is classified as a “mental disorder.”
April 2nd, 2006 at 8:18 pmThis is the first time I read this site, but Judd’s possition is nutty. Jpod suggested her anti-American and pro-terrorist statements should not be taken as accurate, Judd responded by asserting “It is totally inappropriate to assume that her description of how she was treated is motivated by anything other than a desire to tell the truth,” and then when she confirms Jpod’s point, Judd ratchets up the criticism of Jpod and just ignores his own initial mistake in asserting her statements were motivated by a desire to tell the truth (he quotes a later comment by him, not the one that Jpod has referred to). Bottom line is that Jpod was right and Judd was wrong.
Why doesn’t everyone see that?
Is there always such intellectual dishonesty here?
April 2nd, 2006 at 8:20 pmBrian sums this up nicely – no one on here seems to be remotely aware of their position. It’s just a lot of knee-jerk reacting that happens whenever someone mentions a conservative publications and the writers that work for it.
“You don’t read insult into that? “It’s wonderful that she’s free, but…—
no, I don’t. Perhaps if I stopped there, assuming something malicious would follow, then I’d have a bone to pick with that statement. But I read on, and discovered he was speculating about a possibility that was very reaosnable, given the context of her capture. A lot more reasonable, I might add, than holding on to the possibility that she honestly did have no ill feelings towards her captors.
April 2nd, 2006 at 8:45 pm#50: You ignore something very basic. hJPod didn’t simply suggest her statements “should not be taken as accurate…” he made a diagnosis of the cause of the inaccuracy. The diagnosis being Stockholm Syndrome, a form of PTSD–a mental disorder.
Judd said: “It is totally inappropriate to assume that her description of how she was treated is motivated by anything other than a desire to tell the truth.”
Judd was right about the appropriateness of JPod’s assumptions. His assumption was wrong, but that wrong was made in giving the benefit of the doubt to a courageous human in a fragile situation. JPod’s were made into heartlessness and insult.
April 2nd, 2006 at 8:48 pmWithout reading any comments or even the 1st paragraph, How is that possible?
April 2nd, 2006 at 8:50 pmBrian pretty much hits the nail on the head. My second time here.
I’m no fan of Goldberg. He seems to think sarcasm is the height of wit. Podhertz is a better writer.
However its pretty clear they were both warning people to leave Carroll alone – people on the right mind you, their own fellow travelers. Their position was her statements – about what a great bunch of guys her captors were, captors that had murdered her translator – might not have been her own.
The author’s response to their posts was perfectly clear. “It is totally inappropriate to assume that her description of how she was treated is motivated by anything other than a desire to tell the truthâ€.
It turns out Podhertz and Goldberg were correct. Being free from her captors, she renounces her previous statement.
So, to be perfectly plain “It is totally inappropriate to assume that her description of how she was treated is motivated by anything other than a desire to tell the truth†was flatly, unambiguously wrong.
It was indeed quite appropriate, and in fact it was totally accurate, to question the sincerity of a statement almost certainly made at gunpoint. Well duh.
The honest thing to do would be to simply admit you were wrong. Failing that sort of moral courage you should have simply dropped it.
Think Progress? I don’t see a lot of thinking in these posts.
April 2nd, 2006 at 8:54 pmSorry about the bolding.
DammitSteve, if the problem you have is with knee-jerk reactions then it should be with the people who, the day of her release, were saying she was mentally ill (and PTSD is a mental illness) on the very day of her release. (And some in comments on the rightwing blogosphere wee calling her a “traitor bitch.”)
At least our knee jerk reaction to that was “Yeah!”
April 2nd, 2006 at 8:55 pm“Judd was right about the appropriateness of JPod’s assumptions. His assumption was wrong, but that wrong was made in giving the benefit of the doubt to a courageous human in a fragile situation. JPod’s were made into heartlessness and insult.”
After all, tis far better to be wrong than heartless.
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:04 pm#55 Accuracy is no the measure here. If it were, we could use your words to defend JPod if he had said:
You obviously won’t stand behind that, so your argument about accuracy is ridiculous. They were not after accuracy, were in fact very wrong about what was going on, and revealed an ugliness of character with their words.
And Goldberg’s a whole other story. When you said: “It turns out Podhertz and Goldberg were correct.” you were saying that to Goldberg’s:
Jonah Goldberg, teaching Jill Carroll about a good moral center.
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:08 pmDamn, comment #57 was supposed to be addresed to Dwilkers
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:10 pmEagle
Absolutley in this case is it better to be wrong than heartless. We’re on the fucking internet. In other cases it would not be. But when talking about Jill Carrol on the internet, I’ll go with the benefit of the doubt on her first day free.
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:12 pmAnyone who posts on here defending Goldberg and Jpod must be a certified idiot or a Bush loving fool?! Judd has a right to speculate about whatever he wants on TP! If you dislike the thread, then do not post on here!
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:27 pmWhat is the purpose of commenting on the comments of Goldberg, et all? Wasted effort. I bet they are laughing at these comments.
They believe what they believe because they believe it. This sums up their intellectual evaluations of events and policies.
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:33 pmGeneral criticisim of Judd may not be fair because I have not read other stuff by him, but what does seem clear is that Judd’s postings on this issue show: (1) a surprising naivete in originally thinking that Carroll’s pro-terrorist statements were her true feelings; and (2) a lack of honesty in not just acknowledging that he was wrong and, instead, twisting this into a debate over whether Jpod accused her of having a mental disorder. This is the type of liberal argument/dishonesty that leads even honest conservatives to talk about Bush hatred syndrome, or whatever they call it.
Below is what Jpod actually said — I only fault him for not also pointing out the terrorists had brutally murdered her translater and had previously video taped Carroll in an obviously emotionally distraught condition. I guess someone could say he also should have suggested they had guns pointed at her as another alternative other than Stockholm Syndrome, but he was not trying to list all the possible causes, and his point about the inaccuracy of her comments was right.
“It’s wonderful that she’s free, but after watching someone who was a hostage for three months say on television she was well-treated because she wasn’t beaten or killed — while being dressed in the garb of a modest Muslim woman rather than the non-Muslim woman she actually is — I expect there will be some Stockholm Syndrome talk in the coming days.”
I just don’t see any heartlessness or personal attack on Carroll. I suspect Carroll would be more angry at Judd for viewing her pro terrorist statements as her true feelings after they had barbarously killed her translater and terrorized her.
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:59 pm“DammitSteve, if the problem you have is with knee-jerk reactions then it should be with the people who, the day of her release, were saying she was mentally ill (and PTSD is a mental illness) on the very day of her release.
why? as I have said countless times, they were giving a hypothesis based on the little information they (or anyone) had. It wasn’t malicious – it wasn’t even questionable. It was a distinct possibility given the trouble she had been though.
“(And some in comments on the rightwing blogosphere wee calling her a “traitor bitch.â€)”
those, quite, obviously, are not the people I’m defending and never would be. There are plenty of nutjobs on both sides of the aisle. Some of them post here.
“Anyone who posts on here defending Goldberg and Jpod must be a certified idiot or a Bush loving fool?! Judd has a right to speculate about whatever he wants on TP! If you dislike the thread, then do not post on here!”
Absolute nonsense argument. No one ever said of implied Judd didn’t have the right to say anything. Any critique I gave of his post was based on its content, not his right to say it. If you would stick to the issue and not go off on some Bush-lover’s witch hunt (what loving president bush – which i do not – has anything to do with this story is beyond my creativity), then perhaps you would make sense.
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:02 pm#1 & #2 – What these two mooks think is completely, utterly unimportant. Why do we allow ourselves to be distracted by such pettifogging?
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:15 pmLOL post 63 > the only nuts on here are those who post a defense of Goldberg, Jpod, and Bush! This thread deals with the hypocrisy of those who attacked Jill Carrol! Judd never called her any names > he said let her tell her story! I for one am glad she was released alive, so who cares what she said to keep from being killed! Only someone who has been held hostage knows the daily fear of incarceration!
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:55 pm“I for one am glad she was released alive, so who cares what she said to keep from being killed! Only someone who has been held hostage knows the daily fear of incarceration!”
WELL THATS WHERE YOU AND I DIFFER BECAUSE I’M A NAZI CONSERVATIVE. C’mon, what do you expect me to say to that? No one with any intelligence has debated the merits of that very obviously true statement. No one ciriticized her for lyring to stay alive. No one is upset she was released. No one denies any of these obvious truths…what the hell are you people talking about?
My argument has always been against those who are criticizing Jonah and Jpod for literally no logical reason.
April 2nd, 2006 at 11:08 pmNothing like a little armchair psychoanalysis from two certifiable wack jobs.
April 2nd, 2006 at 11:18 pmDammitSteve
Read 57. That is what we object to. That is why the comments were in bad taste, and that is why they were contemptable. It was not right to accuse her of immorality for being happy to survive.
And don’t get us started on Imus.
It was not the judgements on her statements which disgusted us, it was the judgements being piled upon her. The right wing has a nasty habit of attacking the person, and not the argument, and it shows.
April 3rd, 2006 at 1:10 amplease dont turn this into a partisan issue. political hacks of all colors have a nasty habit of attacking the person and not the argument. But this was not one of those cases..neither Jonah nor Jpod ever “accused her of immorality for being happy to survive.” It simply did not happen. What they “accused” her of was perhaps not being emotionally stable – which effects judgments moral and otherwise – immediately following her release. If that isn’t a reasonable hypothesis, I don’t know what is.
If you wish to see any proper attack on a person and not an argument, read the first forty posts on this thread. There are enough ignorant bumper-sticker slogans there to run an election.
April 3rd, 2006 at 1:24 amMy argument has always been against those who are criticizing Jonah and Jpod for literally no logical reason.
Comment by DammitSteve — April 2, 2006 @ 11:08 pm
How about past statements? May they be entered into evidence?
“ATTN: SUPERDOME RESIDENTS – I think it’s time to face facts. That place is going to be a Mad Max/thunderdome Waterworld/Lord of the Flies horror show within the next few hours. My advice is to prepare yourself now. Hoard weapons, grow gills and learn to communicate with serpents. While you’re working on that, find the biggest guy you can and when he’s not expecting it beat him senseless. Gather young fighters around you and tell the womenfolk you will feed and protect any female who agrees to participate without question in your plans to repopulate the earth with a race of gilled-supermen. It’s never too soon to be prepared.”
Anyone who would post this PRIOR to a hurricane’s impact seems a little too wacky to just accept face value, don’t you agree? I think past statements like this disqualify ANYTHING the curdled little chickenhawk might spew in the future. Some things, once said, place you outside the norm and in the extreme. But defend him all you want; it just demonstrates YOUR moral and intellectual bankruptcy.
April 3rd, 2006 at 3:13 amMy parrot refuses to crap on the National Review. (And it’s not out of respect.)
April 3rd, 2006 at 6:18 amhttp://shlomoaronovitz.blogspot.com/2006/03/twisted-ethics-time-travel.html
My analysis of another article from the National Review’s David Frum.
April 3rd, 2006 at 6:20 amI see that the stigma of mental illness is as alive and prevelant as it has been for decades… It’s really quite sad. How is a “mental illness” so much worse than a “physical illness?” I have GAD and I don’t hide it. Why should I? It’s not my fault.
The same goes for anybody suffering from PTSD, or in particular for this thread, Stockholm Syndrome. PTSD is a mental illness. Take a psychology class or, heck, read a Psych 101 textbook.
I am very thankful to see that Ms. Carroll is making statements to clear up her side of the story so we can put this nonsense to rest. But let’s say she does/did have Stockholm… It wouldn’t be her fault and it is treatable with time, patience, and an good doctor. It is nothing that should be used to slander her.
It’s sickening that anybody would use a serious condition as a form of slander on someone. That disgusts me. I’d love to see how these conservative loudmouths would do if THEY were kidnapped while reporting on the frontline, instead of mouthing off from their cushy chairs, hidden behind the camera and mic from the real world.
April 3rd, 2006 at 1:50 pmArt Levine on Huffington Post tries to take the usual “both sides are equally wrong and extreme” tack. I don’t think so. ThinkProgress is his stalking horse for “the left” which “accepted her statement” (he willfully mixes the 2 statements before and after release into one) at face value.
I was huffy.
April 3rd, 2006 at 2:40 pmIt was actually the mainstream media that rushed to judgment by proclaiming the release of Carroll to be a positive thing, while Podhoretz and Goldberg urged caution.
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