The recent focus on immigration has provided an opportunity to knock down several prominent myths about the issue — that mass deportation of 12 million people is a feasible solution; that hardline “enforcement-only” proposals will actually reduce illegal immigration; or that undocumented workers don’t pay taxes.
Another common misperception is that increased immigration has had a negative impact on wages for lower-skilled U.S.-born workers. But as Princeton University professor Alan Krueger shows in a new American Progress memo, the actual impact of immigration on lower-skilled workers is negligible. Why?
One likely factor is that, in addition to increasing the supply of labor, immigrants increase the demand for goods and services produced in the U.S. This leads to higher wages and employment for all workers in the U.S. Immigration can also result in an increase in capital investment. And many immigrants become entrepreneurs, creating jobs for other immigrants and natives. (The latest U.S. Census data shows that “Hispanic-owned businesses now comprise one of the fastest-growing segments in the U.S. economy.”)
As Krueger writes, if we are serious about helping low-income workers, we need to act now on measures that can have a much larger impact, like “an expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit, an increase in the child tax credit, a boost in the minimum wage, and increased job training.”
Are you nuts!!!
April 5th, 2006 at 5:59 pmIllegals working under the table are driving down wages here in texas.
Look this is not a race issue, It’s about economics plain and simple. In the construction trade here in Texas a mason/brick layer used to make 15 dollars an hour, now the average wage is 7
dollars or less because crooked contractors hire illegals. They pay these poor guys under the table in cash to avoid the paper trail. Please Please Please don’t buy into the big business spin. When this problem becomes as bad in your part of the country as it is here maybe you’ll change your tune.
this is important information to make available.
i had wondered if anyone had calculated the costs to communities and states of precipitously destroying what is probably hundreds of thousands of small businesses.
add to that
the cost of incarceration and its bureaucracy,
and
the cost of repartriation and its bureaucracy.
together with the little matter
of the moral cost to the united states
a country built on immigration,
of passing politically self-serving immigaration laws
which would evict an entire class of people numbering in the millions.
if you worried about the image people in other nations have of the united states,
something this administration does not do,
you would be very cautious and use very precise means to solve this
immigration problem.
April 5th, 2006 at 6:07 pmAgree with #1 AND….saying we need to do things like increase the minimum wage is great, but if an employer doesn’t have to hire a legal worker, he doesn’t have to pay the minimum wage. Real solution: Legalize those who are here so they can unionize and demand minimum wage. Enforce existing immigration laws from here forward. Problem solved.
April 5th, 2006 at 6:08 pmTruly much of the immigration debate comes down to whether the government is
1.) willing to secure borders north and south, and our ports to prevent illegals from entering the country.
2.) a crackdown on business who hire the illegals. As long as they can cross our border, and make money they will.
April 5th, 2006 at 6:16 pmAs Krueger writes, if we are serious about helping low-income workers, we need to act now on measures that can have a much larger impact, like “an expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit, an increase in the child tax credit, a boost in the minimum wage, and increased job training.â€
In no way, shape or form do I support increases in the child tax credit. There are too many people on this planet, and giving people incentives to have more kids is a BAD idea. And suggesting it as a solution, even in part, makes me leery of the entire report.
April 5th, 2006 at 6:19 pmThere are too many people on this planet, and giving people incentives to have more kids is a BAD idea.
Comment by occum’s razor — April 5, 2006 @ 6:19 pm
I would have to agree. Having children has become as much of a luxury as owning a mansion, driving a Rolls Royce, or buying a yacht:
“Since 2000 the number of American children living in poverty has risen 12 percent — to 13 million. The initial growth was due to the economic downturn. But since then, despite the ongoing expansion, the poverty rate for children on this side of the pond keeps rising, largely because the benefits of the recovery have flowed so disproportionately to families at the top of the income scale.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp-dyn/ content/ article/ 2006/ 04/ 02/ AR2006040201091_pf.html
April 5th, 2006 at 6:26 pmI’m disappointed to see Think Progress fall for the corporatist line that we need all these illegal immigrant workers … and that we could benefit from even more low wage labor.
I would suggest two articles by Thom Hartmann: Today’s Immigration Battle - Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)
and
Illegal Workers - The Con’s Secret Weapon .
I would also ask folks to take a look at this commentary:
Do Illegal Immigrants Really Take Jobs From Poor American Workers? by Earl Ofari Hutchinson at BlackNews.com.
It is very important for all of us to be compassionate towards those in need who are in this country, regardless of nationality, especially medical care.
I also am very worried about the radical Republicans using this illegal immigration issue to foment hatred towards Hispanics and stir-up racial tension — simply for political gain.
But, outsourcing our labor and service jobs by ‘insourcing’ cheap, exploitable Mexican workers is just simply a bad idea for the prosperity of our own citizens.
Exploiting Mexicans here is just as bad as the exploitation that has driven these good people out of their very own country. We need to enforce all the laws or pass new laws that makes ALL employers pay their workers a livable wage with benefits and permit union organization. We need to also encourage a non-violent revolution in Mexico that brings and end to the political and economic corruption there (we need that here, too, by the way).
Really, the solution to this issue is not to be found in building fences and making illegal immigrants felons, it is to repeal NAFTA, dump the FTAA, and then negotiate bilateral trade agreements that genuinely respects the rights of workers.
April 5th, 2006 at 6:29 pmSee the Boston Globe yesterday for an article by Scot Lehigh wherein he cites a study by Harvard economists George Borjas and Lawrence Katz that immigration from Mexico alone depressed wages by 8%. He goes on to cite:”Borjas estimates the total loss in labor earnings that results from all immigrants currently in the workforce at $280 billion annually.”
April 5th, 2006 at 6:37 pmEconomists,can’t agree on anything.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/ news/ globe/ editorial_opinion/ oped/ articles/ 2006/ 04/ 04/ a_sensible_look_at_immigration/
In re-reading the post one thing I noticed was the phase “immigrants”. There is no distinction made between legal and illegal. While the data provided may apply to legals
April 5th, 2006 at 6:48 pmI’m sure that the data would change if the costs of illegals were factored in.
The solution of course is to enforce the currant labor laws and fine or jail employers who violate the laws. By doing this the appeal to business of near slave labor would disappear and the problem would resolve itself over time. A recently quoted figure on the number of businesses charged with violating the law nation wide was 22.
I would have to agree. Having children has become as much of a luxury as owning a mansion, driving a Rolls Royce, or buying a yacht:
Comment by unbelievable — April 5, 2006 @ 6:26 pm
It’s by design. The rich are giving their genes an edge.
April 5th, 2006 at 6:50 pmTJM,
As always, you tell HALF the story. Here’s an excerpt from Borjas work:
Actually the economists DO typically agree when they discuss MATH, but the spinsters of the reichwing do their darndest to spin the situation to their own advantage.
But interestingly enough, the biggest ‘winners’ are the traditional republican supporters - which is why their immigration stand is so ironic.
April 5th, 2006 at 6:52 pmIllegal immigration hurts, not immigration. The US needs citizens, just as they did in the late to early 1900s. A solution that would make everyone mad except for the average citizen: mass immigration facilities that are fully staffed and equipped like what my grandparents went through. There should be no guest worker programs, amnesty or police round-up as these are a waste. People like my grandparents couldn’t speak english, but they learned and had three kids that all went through college. When going through Ellis Island, they had to be able to speak and write their own language at a specified skill level, and be healthy. Some circumstances may require a personal citizen representative (i.e. relation, friend… that is already an American citizen). Put these areas along the border since that is where they are coming from, rather than the Atlantic.
The US started with people that didn’t fit in their homelands. It shouldn’t be any different now. If it is different, tear down the Statue of Liberty and send it back to France.
April 5th, 2006 at 6:55 pmIt’s by design. The rich are giving their genes an edge.
Comment by occum’s razor — April 5, 2006 @ 6:50 pm
So survival of the fittest has become survival of the greediest? Not exactly what Darwin had in mind…
April 5th, 2006 at 6:56 pmCorrection: Illegal immigration hurts, not immigration. The US needs citizens, just as they did in the late 1800s to early 1900s
April 5th, 2006 at 6:57 pmAs a snark let me point out that the US no longer produces “goods”
April 5th, 2006 at 7:02 pmThis is one of the first threads that I have seen from TP that is completely off base.
First, illeagal immigrants DO lower the salary for the American worker. Try going to a construction site in NM, TX, AZ, or CA and notice the number of hispanics (probably mostly illegal) that are working. They drive down the wages because the Americans have no bargining power since the construction companies can get a large portion of their work done dirt cheap.
Second, most of the money they make usually goes back to Mexico. Since they are illegal, how can they pay taxes????? Unless they have an illegal SSN, they cannot pay taxes. Therefore, they are not only taking a job that an American can do, but also not contributing to the country by paying taxes.
Finally, those that are here illegal are a drain on our resources. They get FREE health care, and education without contributing finacially by paying taxes.
I don’t know how ANYONE can say that they are good for our country? Just because they buy some goods to survive on does not mean that they are supporting our economy. Hell a high school student or an unemployed student will spend money just as much as them if they had a job as well.
TP, what are you thinking???
I used to live in AZ, and lived there almost all my life, trust me this is a problem. In areas where the hispanic communities have grown (mostly by illegals) many of the local businesses went out of business. I have seen it first hand and know that they are draining our country dry.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:02 pmI don’t understand why anyone would support subsidizing businesses’ income statements with porus border security and lax enforcement of existing laws governing the hiring of undocumented aliens.
I also don’t see the rational, with 50MM or more unemployed or underemployed citizens, of permitting H1B workers either. It’s the same song and dance in another verse to reduce expenses and increase income.
There is no evidence that businesses will fail if they have to pay a wage that will attract an documented alien or American citizen. If the business fails, well that’s just market dynamics in a global world.
We don’t allow businesses to exploit prison labor and we shouldn’t allow companies access to a source any other type of cheap labor that violates current statutes.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:03 pm“We don’t allow businesses to exploit prison labor “
April 5th, 2006 at 7:12 pmTry telling that to Wal-Mart’s biggest supplier China.
To my friends in the northern and eastern states, please remember we have been facing this problem since the last “amnisty” program.
I drive past the Mexian consulate everyday and I see lines around the building.
I’ve seen first hand the dramatic increase in illegals in Dallas and I hear the annual costs we provide for medical and schooling.
Is that the same Borjas whose longitudinal study shows that over 2 decades immigrants wages on average exceed those of natives? Guess that must be in another study.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:14 pmVideo of downed Apache in Iraq.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:14 pmWatch The Video Now
I would have to agree. Having children has become as much of a luxury as owning a mansion, driving a Rolls Royce, or buying a yacht:
Comment by unbelievable — April 5, 2006 @ 6:26 pm
It’s by design. The rich are giving their genes an edge.
Comment by occum’s razor — April 5, 2006 @ 6:50 pm
From my experience the poor tend to have more children compared to the rich
April 5th, 2006 at 7:15 pmSo survival of the fittest has become survival of the greediest? Not exactly what Darwin had in mind…
Comment by unbelievable — April 5, 2006 @ 6:56 pm
Animals do have much better manners you know.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:18 pmFrom my experience the poor tend to have more children compared to the rich
Comment by squegeeboo — April 5, 2006 @ 7:15 pm
In the olden days, perhaps. Buttimes, theyare a’changin’. Poor people can’t afford children. I had 6 brothers and sisters, which was not uncommon at that time. My friends now all have one or two kids. Rarely anyone has three, unless they have money. My boss has 5 kids.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:23 pmMaybe I’m not getting this right, so someone please tell me if I’m off base.
The people complaining about construction, etc. in the S/SW. If a company is hiring illegals, shouldn’t you be reporting the COMPANY instead of berating the illegals?
I lived in San Antonio, thankfully for only half a year. I know about the crap pay. It has to do with the greed of the corporations. If you didn’t have a college degree you got sh*t for pay, period. I was looking into Biotech; and because I only held an Assoc. in that field, I got zippo.
Also, illegals aren’t the only ones;I dare say the MINORITY of, people working “under the table.” Americans are guilty of that crime much more so than illegals, IMHO. (In my experiences…)
April 5th, 2006 at 7:24 pmLastly, this instant soap box anti illegal’s rant is disturbing in itself. Amnesty was given to the illegals some 20 years ago, remember? Why such hatred now? It’s like you people are blindly following the rhetoric of a crazed zealot……
Where have I seen that before?……..
Am I wrong to tell everyone to lighten up and focus on the destruction of America from within its borders - namely its corrupt Administration?
Just my opinion…
Then there is the paper in the Quarterly Journal of Economics by Mr. Borjas where on page 1336 we find : “…,the evidence consistently suggests that immigration has indeed harmed the employment opportunities of competing native workers.” Quarterly Journal of Econoomics,November 2003
April 5th, 2006 at 7:31 pmtrueblue, so we should just let anyone and everyone in our country with no flow control?
GEEZE!
“Americans are guilty of that crime much more so than illegals, IMHO. (In my experiences…)”
WRONG! Americans do in fact do this as well, but the ILLEAGALS are much more of a problem. After all, how can they be tracked?
“If a company is hiring illegals, shouldn’t you be reporting the COMPANY instead of berating the illegals?”
So you mean that a person who is working for a company should risk his job by pissing off his employeer by ratting him/her out? YEAH, thats a GREAT IDEA!
The problem is the EMPLOYEER! I say we do the following, and watch all the illegals go back home.
Fist offense of hiring an illegal/per illegal: $10,000 and 30 days in jail.
Second offence - $50,000 and 3 months in jail.
Third and final offence - $200,000 and 3 years in prison.
No fourth chance.
For the first year, every company will get ONE warning.
If all the jobs dry up, they will have to leave. I would of course put in some provisions for those who have children born here, but this will be the only exception.
“Why such hatred now? It’s like you people are blindly following the rhetoric of a crazed zealot……”
It’s not hatred! You must be a Republican, because when someone voices opposition to something it is “Hatred”. How many more do you feel should be allowed to enter before we do something? We have let it get out of hand, so we should just continue? We need to fix this issue.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:33 pmAh,yes,good old hit and ad hominem Ryan.What a guy.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:34 pmOne of the slavery solutions that Abe Lincoln considered, but was rejected for the cost was too high, was to place the 4,000,000 slaves on boats and send them back to Africa.
The idea that any person that has gotten to these shores and has worked and toiled as most of the men and women have who are the subject of this debate being expelled and/or prosecuted, reminds me of the above idiocy.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:38 pmWhere have I seen that before?……..
Am I wrong to tell everyone to lighten up and focus on the destruction of America from within its borders - namely its corrupt Administration?
Just my opinion…
Comment by trueblue — April 5, 2006 @ 7:24 pm
I agree that it’s another trick to divide us as a population and to take the focus off the corruption at the top. It’s what the Southern Plantation Owners did - pit the black slaves against sthe white Irish Immigrants to distract from their corrupt actions.
Once again, it is using the divide and conquer approach to keep us focused on the wrong issue.
You’re right trueblue. We shouldn’t take their bait.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:38 pmFrom my experience the poor tend to have more children compared to the rich
Comment by squegeeboo — April 5, 2006 @ 7:15 pm
In your experience? What does that mean?
I don’t think you can say that without some research to back it up. Well, you can say it, but you might regret doing so… :)
April 5th, 2006 at 7:41 pm“The idea that any person that has gotten to these shores and has worked and toiled as most of the men and women have who are the subject of this debate being expelled and/or prosecuted, reminds me of the above idiocy.”
So we are no longer a NATION of laws? Now our citizens are saying that there are no laws and anyone can just do what ever they want. GREAT!
If they come here by breaking the law, you analogy is BS! There is a large difference between someone being forced to come here and people breaking the law to get here.
I guess that if the illegals start robbing banks and killing people for money, would be no problem with you???? After all, they have “worked and toiled” so why should we bother arresting them if they do anything like this?
What are you thinking? Yes they are people! I challenge you to go to, oh let’s say Romania, and sneak into their country and try to do the things that they do here. You would find yourself locked up rather quickly. What’s the difference?
April 5th, 2006 at 7:46 pmThis leads to higher wages and employment for all workers in the U.S.
Then Why do We have Poverty Wages Still?
Because Cheap Labor Here and abroad keeps it down?
I have a Hard time with this Intellectual Argument because min wage hasn’t kept up or done what he says. Sure the Ilegals buy stuff and they Pay taxes for that, as well if they use a fake SS number. Its not the people that keep the wage at poverty levels then?
Poverty Level Wage is created by the Goverment and the Senators such as Delay and the influence peddlers such as Abramoff.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:48 pm“I don’t think you can say that without some research to back it up. Well, you can say it, but you might regret doing so… :)”
Actually that is mostly true! Due to our system. The more kids you have the more money you get from the government. Therefore, there are in fact a larger number of poor people with more children than rich people.
Once a rich person has a kid or two, they don’t need to keep having them to obtain more money.
It’s a double edged sword because of the cost to raise them, but there are more poor people with many kids because of this government funding.
I don’t have data to support this, but I have lived in plenty of low income areas and this is certainly true. Not being discriminatory here just pointing out the facts, but more hispanics and blacks have multiple kids for this added income from the government.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:52 pm#30
Rising incomes lead to lower births per woman around the globe (US, Germany, Japan, Italy are often cited). While he is looking at a sample of those ‘he knows’ it isn’t unbelievable to assume that those women with higher incomes tend to work more and have less kids. Those who have a well off husband may choose to work and have less kids.
The poor have less access to health care (read: family planning).
It is also my experience that the less well off have more children and start having them at a younger age.
Having children at a young age is an issue because it impedes education which you need to add value.
Disagreements with the Professor:
Raising the minimum wage does little. It helps those off who have jobs at the minimum and hurts those who will no longer be hired at a new artificial reservation wage. He knows that.
Of course, in economics - while not zero sum (I win you lose by default) - some people will gain and some will lose. There are better ways to help the poor.
What the professor doesn’t focus much on is job training.
Job training should be equated with the poor quality of our schools today that produce graduates not suitable for the work force. Part of this is the fault of politicians and school admins and part because of the nea. People should be allowed to take different educational paths at a younger age and not the half step you can do right now. Vocational school etc.
Immigrants *do* impact the wages of the lowest wage earners. If you are a farm worker you will be impacted (numerous econ literature). As he points out it’s not spread out into the aggregate economy but he is only saying that income is still rising - not whether income is being retarded by immigration. Also remember the very rich are included in this income measurement.
He should have focused on aggregate farm worker, construction, etc incomes - not the whole.
Tax credits are a one off. Learning is much better - tax credits give people an incentive *not* to go back to school that would exist otherwise.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:53 pmHi Remove Bush,
I think I didn’t make myself clear in a couple of points.
I meant concerned citizens who feel they’ve been wronged or cheated because of the Co.’s illegal activity should report them, not the illegals themselves. I agree that would be silly.
Also, I do not advocate a c’mon in attitude. I was pointing to the solution of 2 decades ago vs. the hard line solution now. No one is FOR illegal immigration. I just meant that there was more forgiveness and tolerance years ago.
The under the table thing - I’ve turned down three such jobs in my time. That was my experience.
As far as being a republican,…..
April 5th, 2006 at 7:53 pmThat’s the most hurtful thing anyone could ever say to me!
I think it was a misunderstanding, as I am TrueBLUE!!!
Thanks for your input.
trueblue, sorry for the rebulican thing! ;)
I understood what you meant!
“I meant concerned citizens who feel they’ve been wronged or cheated because of the Co.’s illegal activity should report them, not the illegals themselves”
I too was talking about the people who see this going on. But lets face it….. Most of the people who actually know about it work for the company, and with the economy the way it is do you really expect someone to put their job at risk?
It’s better for EVERYONE if the government did their job and did more to fight this problem.
“I was pointing to the solution of 2 decades ago vs. the hard line solution now.”
Yeah, but I don’t think that 20 years ago we had 11 million illegals? This is the issue that is being talked about as a concern. At least 20 years ago, the availability for as many jobs were not as great as they are today.
I agree that there may be some distraction to the Administrations issues, but we can deal with multiple things. We don’t have to be focused on one thing in order for it to be a problem. Americans have learned to multi-task very well, at least I have so I know that we can battle many issues at once. We just have to prioritize them.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:02 pmWhy not while your at it as far as adjusting the Tax code, try this; Repeal the AMT, mandate a percentage of the Gasoline Tax to local municipalites for Law enforcement and standardize all Drivers license and automobile insurance qualifications and regulations, nation wide. Certainly prpoerty taxes are paid thru rents but to ask one set of people to pay for car insurance while encouraging another not to isn’t fair. Why is the crime rate in Dallas the highest in the country for a city of its’ size? Why are 1 in 4 cars in the state of Texas unisured? Why does Parkland Hospital have 1400 indigent births , the second highest in the country? Because people are appeased for the sake of lower prices. I think the greatest fear I have is the possibility that a terrorist could come thru Mexico, live a low profile existence in any major immigrant community, where vigilance against outsiders is low and BLAM, we get popped with another attack.We don’t need to send any one but criminals back but when the margins of existence for any hard working persons are options to some and nessisities for others we have encouraged the option out by not enforcing baic laws. What if the first thing you learned as a new resident of any country was that Federal Laws can be ignored. What if Tax compliance laws were enforced like our immigration laws? Not Pretty.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:03 pmhttp://www.nccp.org/cat_8.html
http://www.prcdc.org/ summaries/ uspopperspec/ uspopperspec.html
ethnicity and income do seem to have a correlation - not causation - with birth levels levels
But first, the immigrants:
Does the percent of children in low-income families vary by parent’s county of origin? [4]
* 59% of children of immigrant parents—7.2 million—live in low-income families.
* 36% of children of native-born parents—21.0 million—live in low-income families.
The U.S. population increases by 0.6 percent annually as a consequence of more births than deaths. Legal immigration contributes another 0.3 percent to growth, or approximately 800,000 people per year.
By 2050, U.S. population is projected to grow to over 403 million people; ethnic and racial minorities will comprise more than 90 percent of those 130 million additional Americans.
there are more than 73 million children in the United States.
* 40%—29.2 million—live in low-income families.
* 18%—13.5 million—live in poor families.
Does the percent of children in low-income families vary by race and ethnicity?
* 63% of Latino children—8.9 million—live in low-income families.
* 61% of black children—6.6 million—live in low-income families.
* 30% of Asian children—0.9 million—live in low-income families.
* 27% of white children—11.7 million—live in low-income families.
Families with incomes below this level are referred to as low income:
* $40,000 for a family of 4.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:04 pm* $33,200 for a family of 3.
* $26,400 for a family of 2.
And how much has the cost of having a house built dropped?
April 5th, 2006 at 8:05 pmDear Trueblue
April 5th, 2006 at 8:06 pmPerhaps one of the reasons for “crap” pay in San Antonio is the swollen labor pool?
As far as reportiong the employers, last year only 22 companies were charged nation wide.
I’m certain that more than the 22 were reported.
It would appear to me that this is an enforcement problem.
And I agree that the administration is corrupt, but the problem remains…..
Enforce the employment laws then secure the border.
Actually that is mostly true! Due to our system. The more kids you have the more money you get from the government. Therefore, there are in fact a larger number of poor people with more children than rich people.
Comment by RemoveBush — April 5, 2006 @ 7:52 pm
I cannot imagine having a child just to milk the system. I’m sure there are a few desperate people who do, as I am not fond of absolutes - but I won’t believe that it is the majority. I think most people have children because they want to have children - whether poor, middle class or rich.
I’d like to see numbers showing that there’s a distinction between poor people having more children than rich people. Otherwise, it’s simply an opinion.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:09 pm#37
You did not adress whether those the indigent mothers of the 1400 children in Dallas are predominantly hispanic….
That’s a health insurance issue, which they couldn’t get if they wanted it because of the ways insurance is set up. They can’t afford it because they are in low value added jobs.
Why are 1 in 4 drivers uninsured in Texas? 1.)Some people live in the middle of nowhere where getting insurance would be stupid - the cows pose the biggest threat. 2.)Insurance is expensive 3.) Insurance may have become prohibitively expensive due to accidents, etc.
Many of your ranchers are probably uninsured.
People only get insurance if they feel they need it —-which is why people in MA haven’t been getting it. If you are well off, what could possibly go wrong?
Invest in your education and move the debate to getting other Americans to do so as well. Allow real vocational training early on - some kids aren’t going to college.
The AMT is actually tax reform in disguise. It gets what the repubs want - less deductions. I don’t feel like compounding the interest, but everyone will be hit in a few decades if the inflation isn’t removed from the law.
I believe AMT’s inflation index is the ‘headline’ inflation rate rather than the core rate which excludes energy and food (volatile components). Because of that, more people are hit than otherwise - the core cpi is the inflation measure the Federal Reserve prefers.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:11 pmWiscoDuk
“And how much has the cost of having a house built dropped?”
The price of the project has risen. The profits are kept by the contractor.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:13 pmAnd the wage differance is funded by the tax payer for indigent care social services food stamps etc.
I would have to agree. Having children has become as much of a luxury as owning a mansion, driving a Rolls Royce, or buying a yacht:
Comment by unbelievable — April 5, 2006 @ 6:26 pm
In retrospect, I want to clarify that I agree with the part about people not having more children. All people. Not because I think poor people will have children for the tax breaks, That part, I do not agree with. I don’t think poor people, by large, have children for that reason. Just wanted to make that clear as this portion of the subject progresses.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:15 pm#41
Look at the above stats. 61 percent of blacks/African American are from low income families.
This correlation does not imply causation because of income or some way to game the system.
But, the system as setup currently does not penalize people who are poor from having children. As such, it’s not economically hurtful to have more which impedes family planning etc
If you know your kid will get free lunches, food stamps/debit cards, free health care and dentist visits through Medicaid, etc why not have more children? Those are costs that all taxpayers bear, not the individual.
As it is though, the welfare system has been reformed to an extent to where it isn’t attractive to have kids for money. But there’s no downside either in any meaningful way.
Mind you, I am talking of a downside at a certain point. Obviously most mothers couldn’t tolerate 8 kids.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:17 pm#44
Understood. Poor people continue to have children because there is no disincentive not too.
They also tend to have less access to family planning and be less ‘mobile’ in that they have less education and are tied to a place (and man).
Birth rates have to do with lots of things, but some are : education, mobility, relationships, family planning knowledge, religious positions, etc.
I’d say education ranks way up there.
Religion does to an extent with immigrants who adhere to faiths that denounce family planning and whose culture enjoys large families.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:21 pmBefore I head out, I wanted to mention that 1. I really believe ‘illegal’ immigrants should be allowed to stay by going through an application that ensures they are either working or attached to someone who is.
THE ONLY REASON THERE IS ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS BECAUSE THE USA INSISTS ON INSANE QUOTAS FOR SOUTH/CENTRAL AMERICA. There is a demand that needs to be met. Our politicians can’t bring themselves to allow a legal supply.
2. Immigrants, particularly the lower skilled, are good for the economy as they get students to aim higher than driving a tractor, picking weeds, building houses, etc (I’m not trying to hurt anyone here, this is a vast generalization). It gives US natives a reason to invest in themselves through education.
Education powers our economy and increases productivity as well as the necessary capital component of our economy.
3. Most : Get them out! excuses are racially charged. Repubs are scared they’ll get outvoted by the illegals kids. Even more frightening is the day when whites become a minority (2050 and whites will no longer be the largest group, asians will).
April 5th, 2006 at 8:26 pm“I’d like to see numbers showing that there’s a distinction between poor people having more children than rich people. Otherwise, it’s simply an opinion.”
Really?
Try going to any low income area and spend the day there. Notice how many families of LOW INCOME have many children. 3 or more. When you have done that, then go to a HIGH INCOME area and notice how many children each family has.
This is NOT an opinion. Maybe you should consider getting out more, because this is fact. The low income don’t have the money to go out as often, so what does that lead to??? They have sex. With more sex, comes more children.
Obviously, people who don’t see this are either ignorant or rich? This is a very serious issue because of the “pay to play” system we have for parents. This is a FACT, that the more kids a mother has the more money she gets from the government. If you don’t believe this, do some research and find out for yourself. I know because I had friends who’s mother had many children just to get more money from the government.
It’s not a great life, but if you really don’t want to work, or can’t find a job, then having kids is a nice way to get an income.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:27 pm#43-
My comment was a poor attempt a sarcasm-
Read post #72 from yesterdays “Bush Waves the Mexican Flagâ€- You’ll get the gist on my feelings about the matter.
(BTW- I’m a union signatory mechanical contractor)
April 5th, 2006 at 8:34 pmIf you know your kid will get free lunches, food stamps/debit cards, free health care and dentist visits through Medicaid, etc why not have more children? Those are costs that all taxpayers bear, not the individual.
Comment by James — April 5, 2006 @ 8:17 pm
How much do people get because of the tax credit? Food stamps? Benefits? Is it much? I don’t know. But, I’m guessing it’s not enough to cover the cost of raising a child by a long shot. I don’t think these things are factored into most people’s decisions whether or not they will have a child. I just don’t think it’s logical.
Personally, I have a problem with people thinking it’s their right to breed. They have a choice. The child has no choice. What about its rights to be fed and clothed and raised properly? As much as I know, having grown up in a lower middle class family that money isn’t everything - I also know that it is necessary to a point. People should be responsible when the reproduce. No one needs to have 4,5, 6, 7 , 10 children. And it’s selfish to have that many. Because we have a limited number of resources, jobs, space to fit the people who are born into it. And with 6.4 billion folks on the globe, it’s become increasingly hostile and competitive for just the basics in life.
If we keep going, unresponsibly, we will find ourselves in a crisis like China is in. Having been there, and having had friends who are Chinese, I can say that they are in a big mess. It’s polluted, they are all struggling, and they now have a situation where the youngest generation is made up of predominantly first born, only child males (4:1 ration of boys to girls). One problem has generated another.
If we don’t learn to control our population, it will control us.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:37 pmI would like to clarify a few things that supporters of the judiciary committee bill seem to be confused about:
Every nation is a nation of immigrants, not just America. Even the Native Americans (Indians) were immigrants as they migrated from Asia during the Ice Age. It is not as if people just suddenly appear in a particular area of the world and claim themselves to be a sovereign country. I don’t understand why you and the other Senators on the floor keep saying this and citing how your parents came to America (Ellis Island) from Europe in the early 1900s. There is nothing unique about it.
There is a difference between a legal and an illegal immigrant. You often mesh these two groups together to make your argument seem more compelling. The immigrants that came in the early 1900s were largely legal; the immigrants that are coming now are largely ILLEGAL. I am pro-legal immigration, but anti-illegal immigration.
Our economy will not collapse if the current crop of illegals were forced out. How did the U.S. survive 15 years ago when there weren’t 12 million illegals in the country? We were able to find legal workers to do manual farm labor back then so why can’t we now? Obviously, the current crop of illegals couldn’t be made to all quit at one time; they would need to be gradually replaced with American citizens and future flows of LEGAL immigrants.
Illegals add more cost than benefit to our economy. I think if you look at the legitimate independent studies, you will find that illegals take more away from the economy than they pay in taxes and the polls suggest that most Americans think the same thing. As you know, we have a progressive tax system, meaning the poor (like the illegals) pay the least in taxes and you will find they there are plenty of examples of hospitals by the border that had to close their doors due to financial problems. Many illegals don’t have health insurance so they go to the emergency room to get treatment and never pay. Perhaps immigrants as a whole add more to the economy than they take out, but here again, you have to distinguish between the legal and the ILLEGAL immigrant. Additionally, as you well know, much of the money these Illegals make they send back to their families in Latin America; they don’t spend it here in our economy.
We are a still a nation of compassion by making them now leave. We were plenty compassionate enough when we let them illegally stay and work in our country for the past 20 years. Now it is time to claim the rule of law. The kids that will potentially be broken away from their parents have nobody to blame but the parents themselves who chose to sneak across the Arizona desert in the middle of the night. They parents knew that they could eventually be deported so they can take their anger out on themselves, not the American government.
The illegals do jobs Americans won’t do FOR THE LOW WAGES. There are plenty of under-educated and low-skilled natural born American citizens who would gladly pick apples or wash dishes, but they won’t do it for $4-5/hour, nor should they have to. Additionally, it is much easier for an employer to just pick up a bunch of illegals standing on a street corner than to go to an employment agency or post an advertisement and wait for a response, which is how most of these low-skilled Americans get jobs (not standing on a street corner). Third, how does the government know the illegals are doing jobs Americans won’t do if the jobs are already taken up by the illegals. So, those are the 3 reasons illegals are getting American jobs: pay, accessibility, and illegals already having the jobs.
If this bill is passed the current crop of illegals WILL be jumping in front of the line. The current illegals may have to pay a fine, learn to speak English, sign up for a 6 year worker program, etc., and may get deported if they don’t pass all the tests, but the current crop of foreigners who are waiting to legally get processed into this country must wait in THEIR COUNTRY of origin, while the illegals get to stay OUR COUNTRY during the process. Those law-abiding foreigners who are waiting don’t get that luxury.
There is a way to get the illegals to leave without forcefully rounding them up. Don’t allow them work at our jobs, don’t allow them to go to our schools, don’t allow them to be treated at our hospitals, don’t allow them to use our social services, etc. and they won’t have a reason to stay here. Most will return to their home country and truly get in the back of the line to become an immigrant the right way- legally. And if the employers continue to hire them, if the school administrators continue to admit them, etc. then put those people in jail, don’t just fine them. Furthermore, the proposal you support would still have deport the millions of illegalss who couldn’t jump through all of the hoops of the “guest-worker†program so why are you so anti- deportation
All of the noise created by the pro illegal immigration crowd protests in L.A. is misguided. First off, many of those people aren’t citizens meaning their political opinion means nothing. Second, many of those people are kids searching for an identity or looking for an excuse to cut class. Third, waving the Mexican and Columbian flags in order to gain citizenship is not what I call assimilation. Fourth and foremost why don’t they use all of that emotion to go back home and fix their own countries so they don’t have to come to ours? Many of their home countries have governments marked by corruption and abuse and mismanaged economies. If they can assemble 500,000 strong in a single U.S. city they should be able to do the same on the steps of the capital in Mexico City and have their own revolution. They were willing to risk their lives coming here (as the supporters of this bill so often point out) why not use all of that desire to fix their country of origin because ultimately that is the source of this whole problem.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:41 pmUnderstood. Poor people continue to have children because there is no disincentive not too.
They also tend to have less access to family planning and be less ‘mobile’ in that they have less education and are tied to a place (and man).
What do you suggest as a disincentive?
Birth rates have to do with lots of things, but some are : education, mobility, relationships, family planning knowledge, religious positions, etc.
Probably across the board and not just poor people.
I’d say education ranks way up there.
Maybe, I don’t know enough to agree or disagree. I should go do some research and find out.
Religion does to an extent with immigrants who adhere to faiths that denounce family planning and whose culture enjoys large families.
Comment by James — April 5, 2006 @ 8:21 pm
No argument from me on that. I am a huge critic of organized religion. I think it wants its followers to spit out more followers, regardless of the conditions they are spit into.
And I see it a lot here in the South where I grew up. Lots of teenage girls having babies here. We have quite a few at school walking around pregnant right now. It’s eye-opening…
April 5th, 2006 at 8:43 pmNo prob, Remove Bush!
And I appreciate your comment, Bush is not a Texan.
He’s actually from around my area - New England.
There is no cut and dry solution to this. I simply added my 2 cents.
I’m signing off for the night. My daughter likes us to watch “Lost” together.
Thanks for the conversation.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:44 pmJames thanks for your points. What other state can you get a one month insurance policy for your vehicle.?I cant imagine with a population in excess of 20 million people that there are that many rural drivers without insurance. I don’t buy the line about why have insurance what could go wrong , what about Liability, civil suits? If insurance is expensive why can I be sued if I’m involved in an accident and be taken to the cleaners for not having it? So if I can afford it I can be held accountable for the same use of the roads but some one who uses the same road who cannot afford it is somehow less culpable? As far as Parkland and their indigent birth stats I do not know, but when I had neighbors, who’s cousins after sneaking in thru Laredo, came to Dallas the first agenda was to have a child and they didn’t go to Presbyterian to have their kids. Ever been to Parkland? I don’t think the Triage nurses speak Nigerian or Korean. Let’s say you have 50 people who come here to do the jobs Americans don’t want and on any given day there are only 30 jobs available , what are the other 20 going to do? Crime. Dignity in the form of appeasment doesn’t have to come at the expense of citizens who obey Federal and local laws.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:44 pmThis is NOT an opinion. Maybe you should consider getting out more, because this is fact. The low income don’t have the money to go out as often, so what does that lead to??? They have sex. With more sex, comes more children.
Comment by RemoveBush — April 5, 2006 @ 8:27 pm
I should have known better than to have gone near you again. Lesson learned. I won’t read your posts anymore, or respond.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:46 pmThis nation is now divided over the issue of immigration. Have we forgotten that all of us, except the Native American Indians, are all immigrants in this country? Should we strictly round up all the 12 Million illegals, does our country have the facilities where to place all of them? Perhaps, in my blog Little’s Blog Things, I should also post a blog on the issue of immigration.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:48 pmDamn James- you’re a bright person- but that was an ignorant comment. A bit “elitist†in fact. Many people don’t have the mental capabilities for an education past high school. Unless you went to a private school you know this yourself. As you also know- college challenges “smart†people to the point where many don’t make it through. “Education†isn’t for everyone.
Could you build a house my friend? You may think you could- but you underestimate the skill and ingenuity of a carpenter. This holds true of other skilled trades also. I’m a mechanical contractor with a college degree in mechanical engineering. Many in my employ over the years have astounded me with their skills and “brains†but they struggled with high school.
Same holds true with farmers driving tractors. Do you know anything about farming? It takes much more than you obviously think. I’m a “city boy†transplant into a rural area. These farmers have much more on the ball than given credit for. I know I couldn’t do it.
You need to ponder your comments a bit deeper.
April 5th, 2006 at 9:11 pmJoe
April 5th, 2006 at 9:11 pmThank you for your points IMHO you are 100% correct.
If someone breaks into your home do you reward them? No they have broken the law. As far as illegals and alleged citizen dependants I’m certain they could return to the country of thier parents with no problems.
“I should have known better than to have gone near you again. Lesson learned. I won’t read your posts anymore, or respond.”
Good! I really don’t like debating with someone who can’t think for themselves or discuss things with an open mind.
The less I have to debate you the more I can put my efforts to logical thinking people and those that can carry on a conversation in a rational manner.
April 5th, 2006 at 9:43 pmThe report written by Mr. Krueger could have been written by the White House spin machine. Some people understand the issue. Some people don’t. We have a massive border security problem that is affecting american communities and american workers. When a business hires an illegal immigrant over an american worker because he wants to cut costs. who wins in that equation?
April 5th, 2006 at 9:46 pmAttention to those who believe Mr. Bush is our current problem: he will choose a heir to continue the Bush doctrine, we must stop whoever that is.
April 5th, 2006 at 9:48 pmThe statement that immigrants don’t drive down the wages of low income workers is pure crap. Spoken by some egghead that has no concept of the real world out here. I am one of those low income workers in the hotel industry in Branson Missouri. Labor is in short supply and instead of offering higher wages to attract more workers, they import labor from Jamaica and Mexico. The immigrants are fine people and good workers just trying to make a better life but they definitly upset the whole concept of supply and demand in the labor market. My employer could double the wages of a maid and add only $3 to their room rate and have all the employees they need. But of course the immigrants keep the wages low and the boss can buy another new Cadillac next year and do another month in Europe. They got their prioities. The old bull shit about immigrants taking jobs Americans don’t want doesn’t hold water. Wages should rise in a free market to a level the supply of labor is adequate for the job. If the work is shit, it should be obvious it has to be the pay level that attracts workers. Shit job with crappy pay attracts no one.
April 5th, 2006 at 10:01 pm#62
Great point Bubba-
People also seem to forget that hiring illegal “aliens” is illegal. Today I heard (on a reightwing talk show) that not one fine was paid by an American business caught violating this law.
April 5th, 2006 at 10:11 pm#62
Great point Bubba
People also seem to forget that hiring illegal “aliens” is illegal. Today I heard (on a reightwing talk show) that in 2005- not one fine was paid by an American business caught violating this law.
April 5th, 2006 at 10:13 pmWell, assuming all 12 million are working, the impact must be 12 million jobs, as stated, and at some wage below minimun wage, and omitted from all other government compliance like unemployment, workman comp, etc., otherwise why bother, right. Businesses have an economic incentive, to use illegal aliens to by-pass government compliance, and the rules in place are not being enforced.
Still don’t know how undocumented workers could be paying taxes to the IRS on an official basis if they aren’t official; maybe it depends on the definition of illegal is? There was a BLS statistic that stated that this contributed to “about 50% of the decline in real wages for the lowest-skilled workers.”
Board of Directors are telling us, that CEO need large compensation packages, because of supply and demand. If it is true at that level, isn’t it true at the other end of the wage scale?
FL had a program on about meth. They said we can thank Mexico, for easy access to the main ingredient ephedrine. Mexico’s pharmacies are suppose to limit sales, but they’ll sell any amount. They showed a local hand that worked in the fields and lived in a run down house on the property. DEA agents were cleaning the house out, including the kids bedrooms, of all the stuff to make meth. The owner had just given the hand a raise to $6 after 3 years. The owner said he was his best worker. Then the DEA agents went to the farm hand’s truck and found a bag filled with $26,000.
I would say that you aren’t living in the real world if you don’t believe wages are driven down and communities are impacted, just like the hb-1’s — and you’ll notice that certain professions are protected; man, what a good lobbyist will get ya. Event the famous labor leader Caesar Chávez understood this. They have more needs and more kids, and are extreme burden on communities already cash strapped. I don’t mean it in a good or bad way, the fact is, they are. And their kids are forming gangs, and it escalates. Who cares, the rich folks can go live in their gated communities. I’d like to know more about gangs like MS-13 and immigration; perhap they need one of the jobs.
April 5th, 2006 at 10:18 pmAnyone who thinks the CAP study about the costs of deporting all illegal aliens should slog their way through this. The CAP study was basically a bad joke using extraordinarily faulty assumptions. You don’t need to have taken a single statistics course to see how bad it was.
Now, they’ve got a new study? No thanks.
April 5th, 2006 at 10:32 pm[…] read more from (thinkprogress.org)Â here : http://thinkprogress.org/ 2006/ 04/ 05/ immigration-us-workers/ Â […]
April 5th, 2006 at 10:45 pmstop giving them work, find the companies large amount of money, you said they will leave if they canot work think again if its happen you will have more crime think
April 5th, 2006 at 10:50 pm#16: “Second, most of the money they make usually goes back to Mexico. Since they are illegal, how can they pay taxes????? Unless they have an illegal SSN, they cannot pay taxes. Therefore, they are not only taking a job that an American can do, but also not contributing to the country by paying taxes.”
April 5th, 2006 at 10:56 pmYou obvioulsly are a person who makes enough money that the amount taken out of your paycheck isn’t enough, and you have to pay more.
If you don’t make very much, often you get a tax return (a quaint, almost extinct animal), and the illegal immigrants who are working with either false SS#s or with one that really is assigned to someone else, do not get the return. So that money stays in the bank.
Except of course when you go to get your retirement and discober that your SS pay rate is much higher than it ought to be for what you earned, in which case you can thank some poor illegal for the bonus.
“stop giving them work, find the companies large amount of money, you said they will leave if they canot work think again if its happen you will have more crime think
Comment by george — April 5, 2006 @ 10:50 pm”
Sure some crime will increase, but eventually it will go down. The fact is that if you take the money out of the equation there is nothing else for them to hold onto.
Once the crime starts to increase, the more people will become involved and the more the deportation will take place. Hence, those that don’t leave voluntarily will be caught eventually through criminal actions and deported.
So george, your telling me that if you moved to Poland and you cannot find work or get work because you don’t speak the language or are not a leagal resident, that you would stay? I don’t think so!
April 5th, 2006 at 11:00 pm“You obvioulsly are a person who makes enough money that the amount taken out of your paycheck isn’t enough, and you have to pay more.”
No! It’s that I have been around and I have lived most of my life in a state that is a HUGE illegal alien state.
“If you don’t make very much, often you get a tax return (a quaint, almost extinct animal), and the illegal immigrants who are working with either false SS#s or with one that really is assigned to someone else, do not get the return. So that money stays in the bank.
Except of course when you go to get your retirement and discober that your SS pay rate is much higher than it ought to be for what you earned, in which case you can thank some poor illegal for the bonus.
Comment by SKdeA — April 5, 2006 @ 10:56 pm”
Your making the assumption that most ALL of these workers are using SS Numbers. The opposite is the case. More illegal aliens are paid UNDER the table than those that use fake SSN or someone elses SSN.
April 5th, 2006 at 11:05 pmBut as Princeton University professor Alan Krueger shows in a new American Progress memo, the actual impact of immigration on lower-skilled workers is negligible. Why?
One likely factor is that, in addition to increasing the supply of labor, immigrants increase the demand for goods and services produced in the U.S. This leads to higher wages and employment for all workers in the U.S. Immigration can also result in an increase in capital investment. And many immigrants become entrepreneurs, creating jobs for other immigrants and natives. (The latest U.S. Census data shows that “Hispanic-owned businesses now comprise one of the fastest-growing segments in the U.S. economy.â€)
Princeton University professor Alan Krueger
That’s why Krueger is teaching. This person has little or no understanding in the real world. Here is the proof.
The fact that “many ” immigrants become entrepreneurs is meaningless. Just as low income immigrants compete with low income citizens so to do immigrant entrepreneurs compete with American entrepreneurs. This fact is seen in the cleaning industry where immigrants are willing too undercut the rates of citizens who need a living wage. I have had offers on more than one occasion to reduce the cost of cleaning my office spaces as well as the exterior of my buildings and landscaping. In my case the offers come largely from Canadians. Several of these folks are from Indian reservations north of the border who come here to work and take the money back with them.
The argument that the increases demand for goods caused by immigration offsets the impact of wages makes no sense at all. It is similar to the argument that welfare recipients pay taxes when they purchase certain goods. You get back only a small fraction of the cost incurred.
In addition to the effect on low income wages illegal immigration costs us in many ways. As Jack points out, many immigrants are paid under the table. Not only is this money not taxed but it ends out leaving the country as well. Contrast that with the larger wages that would be paid to citizens, taxed, and then circulated here instead of leaving the country.
Also, don’t be fooled by figures which claim that illegal don’t use more resources than do Americans. The children of illegal born on US soil are instantly citizens. Many illegal collect money as guardians of these anchor babies. I haven’t even touched on health care and education costs. Who pays for all this? US citizens. This takes money and diverts resources from our own citizens in countless ways. Smarten up people.
April 5th, 2006 at 11:17 pmAs I am writing this there are 72 comments listed. Not one has corrected the economist’s name. The man is Paul KRUGMAN. I thought that the people who read this blog were up on who’s who in the field of political commentary.
April 5th, 2006 at 11:53 pmOff this subject: If the crud GOP members in DC want McKinney to be prosecuted for hitting a police security guard, because he yanked her arm without any respect, then VP Cheney must be prosecuted for shooting a man in the face while intoxicated which is a felony in Texas!
April 6th, 2006 at 12:34 amYou do know what you are talking about.
There is a difference between legal and illegal aliens. The corporations have used the illegal aliends to destroy the American workers. The corporations have turned this economy into a thrid world economy.
These asshole running these corporations are next for out sourcing. Why have an American Executive when for the price of one you can hire 1000 MBA in India, in China that maybe 10,000. Soon these American Executive will be in the soup line with their silver spoons and cups just like the rest of us.
Retirement is a bogus dream now. They say to retire an AMercian needs $500,000. That right everyone not a half a millionaire is not going to be able to retire like they have been dreaming of doing. The corporations are not going to let that happen. They see your retirement funds as corporate assets will not allow you take it with you to retirement.
Illegal aliens are take your jobs, your positions in college, stealing your tax dollars, and your rights.
Be nice to these criminals? Get real.
April 6th, 2006 at 12:40 amWhat the hell was NAFTA about?
April 6th, 2006 at 1:26 amThe economy is in the toilet. Here in my state Tower moved it Ranger line to Ohio, 300 jobs gone. Tower did not want to deal with the union. Tombstone Pizza part of Krafts division cloesed, 400 jobs gone. The Gehl Company which maded small farm machinery closed their doors, 140 jobs gone.
WHERE ARE ALL THE JOBS THAT OLD BUSHIE CREATOR? GONE TO MEXICO FOR $3.00
April 6th, 2006 at 1:31 amAN HOUR.
This blog article today is shamefully anti-progressive. The foundation of progressivism lies in our commitment to American workers to survive in a culture of corporate robber barons. Defeating the sharecropper philosopies of these draconian, oppressive employers is the heart and soul of American progressivism.
As a native of Idaho, and a member of the working class, I have watched my community suffer as big business imported illegal aliens from Mexico to replace farm workers in Idaho during the 70’s and 80’s. During the 90’s, the illegals were co-opted by the large construction firms to replace what used to be union jobs performed by trained professionals who earned a living wage. Multi-national corporations took over the American landscape during this time as well, hiring illegals for their hotels and restaurants, big-box retailers, manufacturing plants and service industries. My home town (a bedroom community of Boise) went from a peaceful small (and overwhelmingly non-hispanic) agricultural community of 20,000 people, to a town of nearly 75,000, with over half of Mexican descent. In the truly rural farm towns of Idaho, the displacement was even more dramatic. Along with the illegal immigrants comes the crime and violence associated with people oppressed beyond their means; working for far less than liveable wages. As a result, they are forced to survive by stealing and selling drugs, placing their neighbors at risk, and ultimately falling into the social safety net that our progressive forefathers worked so hard to create for Americans in need.
This type of wholesale change in culture is driven by corrupt, regressive politicians that do the bidding of their multi-national corporate donors. They have wiped out small farms and local business owners by importing this virtual slave labor to replace hard working Americans. The first amnesty program under Reagan was an incredible failure, and it was rife with fraud and exploitation commited by the government and its agents. Citizenship paperwork was bought and sold in my hometown, taking advantage of illegals who didn’t know any better.
Amnesty and subsequent naturalization sends absolutely the wrong message to Mexican illegal immigrants, and to our own American workers! It absolutely hurts American workers, American communities, and American businesses in every way imaginable. It encourages illegal immigration with the promise of future citizenship for breaking the law.
If ever there were a core issue to the progressive movement, this is it! Immigration and the employment (oppression) of illegal aliens by big corporations are two entirely separate issues. When it comes to the employment of illegals over Americans (of any national origin), Progressives must be the loudest voices calling for the end to corporate abuse. Allowing “guest workers” is a repugnant idea! When Bush or anyone insinuates that we need illegal immigrants “to do jobs that Americans won’t do”, we need to shove that kind of slave owner thinking right out into the public sphere and make them eat their words! Americans will do any job available, so long as it pays a liveable wage. Our corrupt system of illegal immigrant exploitation is shameful, and harmful to everyone involved in it except for the greedy corporations that make off with the profits.
April 6th, 2006 at 2:23 amLooks like Democrats can’t get their story straight. TP serves up another example of how their agenda changes whenever there’s an opportunity for political gain.
August 5, 1993
The Office of Sen. Harry Reid issued the following:
In response to increased terrorism and abuse of social programs by aliens, Sen. Harry Reid (D-Nev.) today introduced the first and only comprehensive immigration reform bill in Congress.
Currently, an alien living illegally in the United States often pays no taxes but receives unemployment, welfare, free medical care and other federal benefits. Recent terrorist acts, including the World Trade Center bombing, have underscored the need to keep violent criminals out of the country.
Reid’s bill, the Immigration Stabilization Act of 1993, overhauls the nation’s immigration laws and calls for a massive scale-down of immigrants allowed into the country from approximately 800,000 to 300,000.
The bill also changes asylum laws to prevent phony asylum seekers. Reid said the U.S. open door policy is being abused at the expense of honest, working citizens.
“Our borders have overflowed with illegal immigrants placing tremendous burdens on our criminal justice system, schools and social programs,” Reid said. “The Immigration and Naturalization Service needs the ability to step up enforcement.
“Our federal wallet is stretched to the limit by illegal aliens getting welfare, food stamps, medical care and other benefits often without paying any taxes.”
April 6th, 2006 at 2:43 amReichWing Corporatists vs. Reichwing Racist/Fundamentalists…there really is a God afterall!
April 6th, 2006 at 4:15 amHow is deporting 11,000,000 immigrants doable when we can’t even evacuate a quarter of a million out of New Orleans?
Btw, I have Part Two of the Conservative Preschoolers series up: Tom DeLay: Good Hygiene for Dirty Money.
April 6th, 2006 at 7:24 amDeportation is out, but the poster has lost sight of how the struggle for labor rights in this country has been the struggle to limit access to the labor market.
Simple equation: More workers = less pay.
You can’t argue this and win, it’s just no possible.
April 6th, 2006 at 7:39 amstop giving them work, find the companies large amount of money, you said they will leave if they canot work think again if its happen you will have more crime think
Comment by george — April 5, 2006 @ 10:50 pm
Gotta let the drones breed more drones. The system requires this.
This won’t happen. They just want to make sure that the children of the drones don’t have equal opportunities as their own children. But you gotta have more drones to work for cheap wages so that you can fund the expensive education of your own children. When the Ameircan drones got cocky and created equal rights, well, the richies just opened the borders to let in new drones who would work for $1 a day and tolerate terrible working conditions. A dollar here buys $20 worth in Chihuahua.
April 6th, 2006 at 8:02 amStudy all you want but I live here in San Diego County (49 years) and I have seen the construction jobs, for instance, go from well paid “apprentice” to “journeyman” levels to dirt paying illegal wages.
I’d say 80 to 90% of the illegal immigration focus is on the Mexican people coming over to work.
How did this happen considering that the source of the problem is those who hire?
Answer:
The corporate media puts the focus on the Mexicans and this plays nicely into inherent racist tendencies of a frightened public, all the while taking the spotlight off the real culprits…the employers.
Fact is; many “special interest”, that benefit from having a sub-class of “under-the-table” workers, directly or indirectly, contribute to political campaigns and advertise on the mainstream media.
We the working-class get screwed again.
Nothing, I mean absolutely nothing, will be solved without a comprehensive approach which INCLUDES tough employer sanctions such as stiff fines, loss of business or property, and prison time.
April 6th, 2006 at 8:04 amBut who will push this?
Nothing, I mean absolutely nothing, will be solved without a comprehensive approach which INCLUDES tough employer sanctions such as stiff fines, loss of business or property, and prison time.
But who will push this?
Comment by SHRED — April 6, 2006 @ 8:04 am
That is the answer to put it back on the people who designed the system. The problem is that those people are also running the country, and own the congress, senate and white house public servants. So, no one will push it through, except for an angry mob. But right now, the mob is no where close to angry as long as the Tivo is working and Walmart is open 24/7.
April 6th, 2006 at 8:13 amThink Progress must not be thinking at all with this entry. It’s completely rediculous to say illegal immigrants working for peanuts don’t drive down wages for everyone.
And that’s really beside the point, anyway. They are F**KING ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS! They broke the law. That means they are criminals, and should be treated as such, period.
Criminals, Law Breakers, Illegals - GET IT everyone?
April 6th, 2006 at 8:23 amI think unless you’re in construction or some labor industry that’s been or is being decimated by the influx of illegals you ought to stay out of it.How many of you that support open border work in jobs that are being flooded with illegals? I am. I work construction and since 1999 my pay has gone from $17.41 an hour to $10.75 an hour. How many of you are trying to live on $10.75 an hour?
Jose, his wife, his two brothers, their wives and, I swear I’m not making this up, half a dozen chickens move in next to me. Jose and his two brothers work construction too. Our homes are the same size so we pay the same rent each month. They have six adults paying their rent so they afford to work for $8.00. For me to be able to compete in the workplace and pay my bills I’ve got to take a cut in pay, take in five roommates and start raising chickens. Jose and his family have fucked my whole life up.
April 6th, 2006 at 9:06 amhttp://www.house.gov/ paul/ tst/ tst2006/ tst040306.htm
April 6th, 2006 at 9:07 amIt’s simple economics.
April 6th, 2006 at 9:08 amThe solution to this one is very simple.
Open the boarders but do away with the welfare system and social support systems that allow people to come here and live without contributing to the system. To allow someone to come into this country and live illegally without paying taxes yet allow the to claim welfare is insane, and it happens all the time. The more children, the bigger the check. I used to work in an area where there was a high ration of illegal immigrants. It was sad to see all the 13 year old pregnant girls with not future for themselves and their babies. And this is in Georgia, not a border state! Also allowing someone to have a child that is an American citizen just because they crossed the border a few weeks before and are in the country illegally is ridiculous.
Sure it is very nice to have social support systems but look at places like the Netherlands which are now in trouble due to their immigration and social policies.
Basically, anyone that wants to work hard and contribute to society should be welcome. Do away with the “nanny state” and you only those who are willing to contribure will bother to come here.
April 6th, 2006 at 9:16 amAnd sorry for the grammatical errors. Unlike many of the illegal immigrants being discussed, I’m having to focus on work while posting to this. :-)
April 6th, 2006 at 9:19 amAnd for those that post after. Relax, that was a joke.
Yes please don’t fall into the Corperate line!!!!
Jobs Americans won’t do?????PAY A LIVING WAGE
April 6th, 2006 at 9:19 amI think unless you’re in construction or some labor industry that’s been or is being decimated by the influx of illegals you ought to stay out of it.How many of you that support open border work in jobs that are being flooded with illegals? I am. I work construction and since 1999 my pay has gone from $17.41 an hour to $10.75 an hour. How many of you are trying to live on $10.75 an hour?
Comment by Thomas — April 6, 2006 @ 9:06 am
I experienced a level of this as an architect in San Francisco. People on work visas, mostly from countries with no real civil rights, were willing to tolerate a lot more than our culture has raised us to expect. Lower wages, excessive overtime without pay, working through lunch (and dinner) on a regular basis, and accepting direspectful behavior from supervisors.
It seemed to me to be a cultural issue. Here, we’ve always been the country who stood up for the little guy, making the American Dream available to anyone who pursued it with conviction, and tried to level the playing field so that everyone could at least be ‘comfortable’. But then a few selfish Corpate hogs went and ruined it. They wanted more than their share. They didn’t care who they hurt or who they stepped upon to get more and more and more. Like greedy little kids in an unlocked candy store. Don’t stop to think of consequences or ramifications of their greed. And they fail to understand the Butterfly Effect of taking more than you need. Chaos.
I think the people here who are advocating that the resolution to this problem should include those industrialists who are willing to exploit different cultures to their advantage are correct. You can’t blame someone for wanting an opportunity to make his or her life ‘comfortable’ (though living with six adults and a yard full of chickens isn’t my ideal :). But you definitely can blame those who want to make their lives excessive and flamboyant at the cost of millions. And that is exactly the system we current have in place. Well, until we get tired of tolerating it.
April 6th, 2006 at 9:21 amThe solution to this one is very simple.
Open the boarders but do away with the welfare system and social support systems that allow people to come here and live without contributing to the system.
Comment by Thought — April 6, 2006 @ 9:16 am
I think that will create an even bigger mess. Look at how much people fight in countries where resources are limited and the population is explosive. You can take your pick of just about any one on the continent of Africa. And most in the Middle East. We have too many people in the system to allow a ‘free for all’ system. There are some prime examples in Europe of what happens when you over regulate a dense population and under regulate Capitalism. There have to be controls in place on both sides of the fence to deal with the extremists who would exploit the situation. After all, it takes two to tango. There are people willing to break the law to get here, and people willing to use that system to their advantage. I think we keep immigration a legal process to be followed, and enforce it, while cracking down on those employers who hire them.
April 6th, 2006 at 9:35 amThanks for your post unbelievalbe. I agree with your comment. Though I do wonder how many people would actually bother to come here if we didn’t hold their hand. We might end up with pocket of extreme poverty but we seem to have those already.
Really, how many people would come here knowing they had to really work? We hear a lot about the “hard working immigrants” and that is true. There are a lot of them, but I have to offer the thought that the real problem isn’t the working illegal immigrants, but the non-working ones who live of the system.
There’s definitely not perfect solution and I’m too much of a cynic to believe we would ever do away with welfare entirely, but not giving people a reason to come here illegally does seem to be a good place to start.
April 6th, 2006 at 9:40 amfrom #1 thru #90
this is one of the best on- line discussions i have ever read thru.
what is really impressive to me is two things:
1) there are people who are really being hurt by wage competiton from illegals
and
2) these people are amzingly (for us americans) kindly and decent in their consideration of the illegals as humans.
but these americans are adamant that they need some relief from wage depression.
if i understand the commenters, the greatest consequences for current citizens is along the mexican border.
we have not heard from them here, but i understand that a large number of farmers and ranchers along the border also feel that they have lost control. of who passes over their land
and of their family’s security on those farms and ranches
my own small window on imigration allows me to see
central american (non-mexican) immigrants who:
- have left their young wives and young children in their country
- say they come here because there are no jobs
– send every dime they can back to their families but have trouble saving those dimes given the expense of living in this country
- go back to their country as soon as they can
- relay the message back here that there still are no jobs in their country besides agriculture
- live 4-6 men in low rent apartments
- are exceptionally bright
- are exceptionally hard working
- are exceptionally supportive of each other
- take extremely dangerous and uncertain routes thru their own country and mexico to get here.
my guess is that the pressure of poverty on these folks seems so great that i cannnot imagine them not continuing to thake these risks.
nor can i imagine any police or quasi-military solution that would work.
tentative conclusion:
this problem of illegal immigration is a tough one that requires a competent, caring, and politically imaginative national government to solve.
where can we find that?