Myth: Immigration Hurts U.S. Workers
Myth: Immigration Hurts U.S. Workers
The recent focus on immigration has provided an opportunity to knock down several prominent myths about the issue — that mass deportation of 12 million people is a feasible solution; that hardline “enforcement-only” proposals will actually reduce illegal immigration; or that undocumented workers don’t pay taxes.
Another common misperception is that increased immigration has had a negative impact on wages for lower-skilled U.S.-born workers. But as Princeton University professor Alan Krueger shows in a new American Progress memo, the actual impact of immigration on lower-skilled workers is negligible. Why?
One likely factor is that, in addition to increasing the supply of labor, immigrants increase the demand for goods and services produced in the U.S. This leads to higher wages and employment for all workers in the U.S. Immigration can also result in an increase in capital investment. And many immigrants become entrepreneurs, creating jobs for other immigrants and natives. (The latest U.S. Census data shows that “Hispanic-owned businesses now comprise one of the fastest-growing segments in the U.S. economy.”)
As Krueger writes, if we are serious about helping low-income workers, we need to act now on measures that can have a much larger impact, like “an expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit, an increase in the child tax credit, a boost in the minimum wage, and increased job training.”
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Are you nuts!!!
April 5th, 2006 at 5:59 pmIllegals working under the table are driving down wages here in texas.
Look this is not a race issue, It's about economics plain and simple. In the construction trade here in Texas a mason/brick layer used to make 15 dollars an hour, now the average wage is 7
dollars or less because crooked contractors hire illegals. They pay these poor guys under the table in cash to avoid the paper trail. Please Please Please don't buy into the big business spin. When this problem becomes as bad in your part of the country as it is here maybe you'll change your tune.
this is important information to make available.
i had wondered if anyone had calculated the costs to communities and states of precipitously destroying what is probably hundreds of thousands of small businesses.
add to that
the cost of incarceration and its bureaucracy,
and
the cost of repartriation and its bureaucracy.
together with the little matter
of the moral cost to the united states
a country built on immigration,
of passing politically self-serving immigaration laws
which would evict an entire class of people numbering in the millions.
if you worried about the image people in other nations have of the united states,
something this administration does not do,
you would be very cautious and use very precise means to solve this
immigration problem.
April 5th, 2006 at 6:07 pmAgree with #1 AND....saying we need to do things like increase the minimum wage is great, but if an employer doesn't have to hire a legal worker, he doesn't have to pay the minimum wage. Real solution: Legalize those who are here so they can unionize and demand minimum wage. Enforce existing immigration laws from here forward. Problem solved.
April 5th, 2006 at 6:08 pmTruly much of the immigration debate comes down to whether the government is
1.) willing to secure borders north and south, and our ports to prevent illegals from entering the country.
2.) a crackdown on business who hire the illegals. As long as they can cross our border, and make money they will.
April 5th, 2006 at 6:16 pmAs Krueger writes, if we are serious about helping low-income workers, we need to act now on measures that can have a much larger impact, like “an expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit, an increase in the child tax credit, a boost in the minimum wage, and increased job training.â€
In no way, shape or form do I support increases in the child tax credit. There are too many people on this planet, and giving people incentives to have more kids is a BAD idea. And suggesting it as a solution, even in part, makes me leery of the entire report.
April 5th, 2006 at 6:19 pmThere are too many people on this planet, and giving people incentives to have more kids is a BAD idea.
Comment by occum's razor — April 5, 2006 @ 6:19 pm
I would have to agree. Having children has become as much of a luxury as owning a mansion, driving a Rolls Royce, or buying a yacht:
"Since 2000 the number of American children living in poverty has risen 12 percent -- to 13 million. The initial growth was due to the economic downturn. But since then, despite the ongoing expansion, the poverty rate for children on this side of the pond keeps rising, largely because the benefits of the recovery have flowed so disproportionately to families at the top of the income scale."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/02/AR2006040201091_pf.html
April 5th, 2006 at 6:26 pmI'm disappointed to see Think Progress fall for the corporatist line that we need all these illegal immigrant workers ... and that we could benefit from even more low wage labor.
I would suggest two articles by Thom Hartmann: Today's Immigration Battle - Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)
and
Illegal Workers - The Con's Secret Weapon .
I would also ask folks to take a look at this commentary:
Do Illegal Immigrants Really Take Jobs From Poor American Workers? by Earl Ofari Hutchinson at BlackNews.com.
It is very important for all of us to be compassionate towards those in need who are in this country, regardless of nationality, especially medical care.
I also am very worried about the radical Republicans using this illegal immigration issue to foment hatred towards Hispanics and stir-up racial tension -- simply for political gain.
But, outsourcing our labor and service jobs by 'insourcing' cheap, exploitable Mexican workers is just simply a bad idea for the prosperity of our own citizens.
Exploiting Mexicans here is just as bad as the exploitation that has driven these good people out of their very own country. We need to enforce all the laws or pass new laws that makes ALL employers pay their workers a livable wage with benefits and permit union organization. We need to also encourage a non-violent revolution in Mexico that brings and end to the political and economic corruption there (we need that here, too, by the way).
Really, the solution to this issue is not to be found in building fences and making illegal immigrants felons, it is to repeal NAFTA, dump the FTAA, and then negotiate bilateral trade agreements that genuinely respects the rights of workers.
April 5th, 2006 at 6:29 pmSee the Boston Globe yesterday for an article by Scot Lehigh wherein he cites a study by Harvard economists George Borjas and Lawrence Katz that immigration from Mexico alone depressed wages by 8%. He goes on to cite:"Borjas estimates the total loss in labor earnings that results from all immigrants currently in the workforce at $280 billion annually."
April 5th, 2006 at 6:37 pmEconomists,can't agree on anything.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/04/04/a_sensible_look_at_immigration/
In re-reading the post one thing I noticed was the phase "immigrants". There is no distinction made between legal and illegal. While the data provided may apply to legals
April 5th, 2006 at 6:48 pmI'm sure that the data would change if the costs of illegals were factored in.
The solution of course is to enforce the currant labor laws and fine or jail employers who violate the laws. By doing this the appeal to business of near slave labor would disappear and the problem would resolve itself over time. A recently quoted figure on the number of businesses charged with violating the law nation wide was 22.
I would have to agree. Having children has become as much of a luxury as owning a mansion, driving a Rolls Royce, or buying a yacht:
Comment by unbelievable — April 5, 2006 @ 6:26 pm
It's by design. The rich are giving their genes an edge.
April 5th, 2006 at 6:50 pmTJM,
As always, you tell HALF the story. Here's an excerpt from Borjas work:
Actually the economists DO typically agree when they discuss MATH, but the spinsters of the reichwing do their darndest to spin the situation to their own advantage.
But interestingly enough, the biggest 'winners' are the traditional republican supporters - which is why their immigration stand is so ironic.
April 5th, 2006 at 6:52 pmIllegal immigration hurts, not immigration. The US needs citizens, just as they did in the late to early 1900s. A solution that would make everyone mad except for the average citizen: mass immigration facilities that are fully staffed and equipped like what my grandparents went through. There should be no guest worker programs, amnesty or police round-up as these are a waste. People like my grandparents couldn't speak english, but they learned and had three kids that all went through college. When going through Ellis Island, they had to be able to speak and write their own language at a specified skill level, and be healthy. Some circumstances may require a personal citizen representative (i.e. relation, friend... that is already an American citizen). Put these areas along the border since that is where they are coming from, rather than the Atlantic.
The US started with people that didn't fit in their homelands. It shouldn't be any different now. If it is different, tear down the Statue of Liberty and send it back to France.
April 5th, 2006 at 6:55 pmIt’s by design. The rich are giving their genes an edge.
Comment by occum's razor — April 5, 2006 @ 6:50 pm
So survival of the fittest has become survival of the greediest? Not exactly what Darwin had in mind...
April 5th, 2006 at 6:56 pmCorrection: Illegal immigration hurts, not immigration. The US needs citizens, just as they did in the late 1800s to early 1900s
April 5th, 2006 at 6:57 pmAs a snark let me point out that the US no longer produces "goods"
April 5th, 2006 at 7:02 pmThis is one of the first threads that I have seen from TP that is completely off base.
First, illeagal immigrants DO lower the salary for the American worker. Try going to a construction site in NM, TX, AZ, or CA and notice the number of hispanics (probably mostly illegal) that are working. They drive down the wages because the Americans have no bargining power since the construction companies can get a large portion of their work done dirt cheap.
Second, most of the money they make usually goes back to Mexico. Since they are illegal, how can they pay taxes????? Unless they have an illegal SSN, they cannot pay taxes. Therefore, they are not only taking a job that an American can do, but also not contributing to the country by paying taxes.
Finally, those that are here illegal are a drain on our resources. They get FREE health care, and education without contributing finacially by paying taxes.
I don't know how ANYONE can say that they are good for our country? Just because they buy some goods to survive on does not mean that they are supporting our economy. Hell a high school student or an unemployed student will spend money just as much as them if they had a job as well.
TP, what are you thinking???
I used to live in AZ, and lived there almost all my life, trust me this is a problem. In areas where the hispanic communities have grown (mostly by illegals) many of the local businesses went out of business. I have seen it first hand and know that they are draining our country dry.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:02 pmI don't understand why anyone would support subsidizing businesses' income statements with porus border security and lax enforcement of existing laws governing the hiring of undocumented aliens.
I also don't see the rational, with 50MM or more unemployed or underemployed citizens, of permitting H1B workers either. It's the same song and dance in another verse to reduce expenses and increase income.
There is no evidence that businesses will fail if they have to pay a wage that will attract an documented alien or American citizen. If the business fails, well that's just market dynamics in a global world.
We don't allow businesses to exploit prison labor and we shouldn't allow companies access to a source any other type of cheap labor that violates current statutes.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:03 pm"We don’t allow businesses to exploit prison labor "
April 5th, 2006 at 7:12 pmTry telling that to Wal-Mart's biggest supplier China.
To my friends in the northern and eastern states, please remember we have been facing this problem since the last "amnisty" program.
I drive past the Mexian consulate everyday and I see lines around the building.
I've seen first hand the dramatic increase in illegals in Dallas and I hear the annual costs we provide for medical and schooling.
Is that the same Borjas whose longitudinal study shows that over 2 decades immigrants wages on average exceed those of natives? Guess that must be in another study.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:14 pmVideo of downed Apache in Iraq.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:14 pmWatch The Video Now
I would have to agree. Having children has become as much of a luxury as owning a mansion, driving a Rolls Royce, or buying a yacht:
Comment by unbelievable — April 5, 2006 @ 6:26 pm
It’s by design. The rich are giving their genes an edge.
Comment by occum's razor — April 5, 2006 @ 6:50 pm
From my experience the poor tend to have more children compared to the rich
April 5th, 2006 at 7:15 pmSo survival of the fittest has become survival of the greediest? Not exactly what Darwin had in mind…
Comment by unbelievable — April 5, 2006 @ 6:56 pm
Animals do have much better manners you know.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:18 pmFrom my experience the poor tend to have more children compared to the rich
Comment by squegeeboo — April 5, 2006 @ 7:15 pm
In the olden days, perhaps. Buttimes, theyare a'changin'. Poor people can't afford children. I had 6 brothers and sisters, which was not uncommon at that time. My friends now all have one or two kids. Rarely anyone has three, unless they have money. My boss has 5 kids.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:23 pmMaybe I'm not getting this right, so someone please tell me if I'm off base.
The people complaining about construction, etc. in the S/SW. If a company is hiring illegals, shouldn't you be reporting the COMPANY instead of berating the illegals?
I lived in San Antonio, thankfully for only half a year. I know about the crap pay. It has to do with the greed of the corporations. If you didn't have a college degree you got sh*t for pay, period. I was looking into Biotech; and because I only held an Assoc. in that field, I got zippo.
Also, illegals aren't the only ones;I dare say the MINORITY of, people working "under the table." Americans are guilty of that crime much more so than illegals, IMHO. (In my experiences...)
April 5th, 2006 at 7:24 pmLastly, this instant soap box anti illegal's rant is disturbing in itself. Amnesty was given to the illegals some 20 years ago, remember? Why such hatred now? It's like you people are blindly following the rhetoric of a crazed zealot......
Where have I seen that before?........
Am I wrong to tell everyone to lighten up and focus on the destruction of America from within its borders - namely its corrupt Administration?
Just my opinion...
Then there is the paper in the Quarterly Journal of Economics by Mr. Borjas where on page 1336 we find : "...,the evidence consistently suggests that immigration has indeed harmed the employment opportunities of competing native workers." Quarterly Journal of Econoomics,November 2003
April 5th, 2006 at 7:31 pmtrueblue, so we should just let anyone and everyone in our country with no flow control?
GEEZE!
"Americans are guilty of that crime much more so than illegals, IMHO. (In my experiences…)"
WRONG! Americans do in fact do this as well, but the ILLEAGALS are much more of a problem. After all, how can they be tracked?
"If a company is hiring illegals, shouldn’t you be reporting the COMPANY instead of berating the illegals?"
So you mean that a person who is working for a company should risk his job by pissing off his employeer by ratting him/her out? YEAH, thats a GREAT IDEA!
The problem is the EMPLOYEER! I say we do the following, and watch all the illegals go back home.
Fist offense of hiring an illegal/per illegal: $10,000 and 30 days in jail.
Second offence - $50,000 and 3 months in jail.
Third and final offence - $200,000 and 3 years in prison.
No fourth chance.
For the first year, every company will get ONE warning.
If all the jobs dry up, they will have to leave. I would of course put in some provisions for those who have children born here, but this will be the only exception.
"Why such hatred now? It’s like you people are blindly following the rhetoric of a crazed zealot……"
It's not hatred! You must be a Republican, because when someone voices opposition to something it is "Hatred". How many more do you feel should be allowed to enter before we do something? We have let it get out of hand, so we should just continue? We need to fix this issue.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:33 pmAh,yes,good old hit and ad hominem Ryan.What a guy.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:34 pmOne of the slavery solutions that Abe Lincoln considered, but was rejected for the cost was too high, was to place the 4,000,000 slaves on boats and send them back to Africa.
The idea that any person that has gotten to these shores and has worked and toiled as most of the men and women have who are the subject of this debate being expelled and/or prosecuted, reminds me of the above idiocy.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:38 pmWhere have I seen that before?……..
Am I wrong to tell everyone to lighten up and focus on the destruction of America from within its borders - namely its corrupt Administration?
Just my opinion…
Comment by trueblue — April 5, 2006 @ 7:24 pm
I agree that it's another trick to divide us as a population and to take the focus off the corruption at the top. It's what the Southern Plantation Owners did - pit the black slaves against sthe white Irish Immigrants to distract from their corrupt actions.
Once again, it is using the divide and conquer approach to keep us focused on the wrong issue.
You're right trueblue. We shouldn't take their bait.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:38 pmFrom my experience the poor tend to have more children compared to the rich
Comment by squegeeboo — April 5, 2006 @ 7:15 pm
In your experience? What does that mean?
I don't think you can say that without some research to back it up. Well, you can say it, but you might regret doing so... :)
April 5th, 2006 at 7:41 pm"The idea that any person that has gotten to these shores and has worked and toiled as most of the men and women have who are the subject of this debate being expelled and/or prosecuted, reminds me of the above idiocy."
So we are no longer a NATION of laws? Now our citizens are saying that there are no laws and anyone can just do what ever they want. GREAT!
If they come here by breaking the law, you analogy is BS! There is a large difference between someone being forced to come here and people breaking the law to get here.
I guess that if the illegals start robbing banks and killing people for money, would be no problem with you???? After all, they have "worked and toiled" so why should we bother arresting them if they do anything like this?
What are you thinking? Yes they are people! I challenge you to go to, oh let's say Romania, and sneak into their country and try to do the things that they do here. You would find yourself locked up rather quickly. What's the difference?
April 5th, 2006 at 7:46 pmThis leads to higher wages and employment for all workers in the U.S.
Then Why do We have Poverty Wages Still?
Because Cheap Labor Here and abroad keeps it down?
I have a Hard time with this Intellectual Argument because min wage hasn't kept up or done what he says. Sure the Ilegals buy stuff and they Pay taxes for that, as well if they use a fake SS number. Its not the people that keep the wage at poverty levels then?
Poverty Level Wage is created by the Goverment and the Senators such as Delay and the influence peddlers such as Abramoff.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:48 pm"I don’t think you can say that without some research to back it up. Well, you can say it, but you might regret doing so… :)"
Actually that is mostly true! Due to our system. The more kids you have the more money you get from the government. Therefore, there are in fact a larger number of poor people with more children than rich people.
Once a rich person has a kid or two, they don't need to keep having them to obtain more money.
It's a double edged sword because of the cost to raise them, but there are more poor people with many kids because of this government funding.
I don't have data to support this, but I have lived in plenty of low income areas and this is certainly true. Not being discriminatory here just pointing out the facts, but more hispanics and blacks have multiple kids for this added income from the government.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:52 pm#30
Rising incomes lead to lower births per woman around the globe (US, Germany, Japan, Italy are often cited). While he is looking at a sample of those 'he knows' it isn't unbelievable to assume that those women with higher incomes tend to work more and have less kids. Those who have a well off husband may choose to work and have less kids.
The poor have less access to health care (read: family planning).
It is also my experience that the less well off have more children and start having them at a younger age.
Having children at a young age is an issue because it impedes education which you need to add value.
Disagreements with the Professor:
Raising the minimum wage does little. It helps those off who have jobs at the minimum and hurts those who will no longer be hired at a new artificial reservation wage. He knows that.
Of course, in economics - while not zero sum (I win you lose by default) - some people will gain and some will lose. There are better ways to help the poor.
What the professor doesn't focus much on is job training.
Job training should be equated with the poor quality of our schools today that produce graduates not suitable for the work force. Part of this is the fault of politicians and school admins and part because of the nea. People should be allowed to take different educational paths at a younger age and not the half step you can do right now. Vocational school etc.
Immigrants *do* impact the wages of the lowest wage earners. If you are a farm worker you will be impacted (numerous econ literature). As he points out it's not spread out into the aggregate economy but he is only saying that income is still rising - not whether income is being retarded by immigration. Also remember the very rich are included in this income measurement.
He should have focused on aggregate farm worker, construction, etc incomes - not the whole.
Tax credits are a one off. Learning is much better - tax credits give people an incentive *not* to go back to school that would exist otherwise.
April 5th, 2006 at 7:53 pmHi Remove Bush,
I think I didn't make myself clear in a couple of points.
I meant concerned citizens who feel they've been wronged or cheated because of the Co.'s illegal activity should report them, not the illegals themselves. I agree that would be silly.
Also, I do not advocate a c'mon in attitude. I was pointing to the solution of 2 decades ago vs. the hard line solution now. No one is FOR illegal immigration. I just meant that there was more forgiveness and tolerance years ago.
The under the table thing - I've turned down three such jobs in my time. That was my experience.
As far as being a republican,.....
April 5th, 2006 at 7:53 pmThat's the most hurtful thing anyone could ever say to me!
I think it was a misunderstanding, as I am TrueBLUE!!!
Thanks for your input.
trueblue, sorry for the rebulican thing! ;)
I understood what you meant!
"I meant concerned citizens who feel they’ve been wronged or cheated because of the Co.’s illegal activity should report them, not the illegals themselves"
I too was talking about the people who see this going on. But lets face it..... Most of the people who actually know about it work for the company, and with the economy the way it is do you really expect someone to put their job at risk?
It's better for EVERYONE if the government did their job and did more to fight this problem.
"I was pointing to the solution of 2 decades ago vs. the hard line solution now."
Yeah, but I don't think that 20 years ago we had 11 million illegals? This is the issue that is being talked about as a concern. At least 20 years ago, the availability for as many jobs were not as great as they are today.
I agree that there may be some distraction to the Administrations issues, but we can deal with multiple things. We don't have to be focused on one thing in order for it to be a problem. Americans have learned to multi-task very well, at least I have so I know that we can battle many issues at once. We just have to prioritize them.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:02 pmWhy not while your at it as far as adjusting the Tax code, try this; Repeal the AMT, mandate a percentage of the Gasoline Tax to local municipalites for Law enforcement and standardize all Drivers license and automobile insurance qualifications and regulations, nation wide. Certainly prpoerty taxes are paid thru rents but to ask one set of people to pay for car insurance while encouraging another not to isn't fair. Why is the crime rate in Dallas the highest in the country for a city of its' size? Why are 1 in 4 cars in the state of Texas unisured? Why does Parkland Hospital have 1400 indigent births , the second highest in the country? Because people are appeased for the sake of lower prices. I think the greatest fear I have is the possibility that a terrorist could come thru Mexico, live a low profile existence in any major immigrant community, where vigilance against outsiders is low and BLAM, we get popped with another attack.We don't need to send any one but criminals back but when the margins of existence for any hard working persons are options to some and nessisities for others we have encouraged the option out by not enforcing baic laws. What if the first thing you learned as a new resident of any country was that Federal Laws can be ignored. What if Tax compliance laws were enforced like our immigration laws? Not Pretty.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:03 pmhttp://www.nccp.org/cat_8.html
http://www.prcdc.org/summaries/uspopperspec/uspopperspec.html
ethnicity and income do seem to have a correlation - not causation - with birth levels levels
But first, the immigrants:
Does the percent of children in low-income families vary by parent's county of origin? [4]
* 59% of children of immigrant parents—7.2 million—live in low-income families.
* 36% of children of native-born parents—21.0 million—live in low-income families.
The U.S. population increases by 0.6 percent annually as a consequence of more births than deaths. Legal immigration contributes another 0.3 percent to growth, or approximately 800,000 people per year.
By 2050, U.S. population is projected to grow to over 403 million people; ethnic and racial minorities will comprise more than 90 percent of those 130 million additional Americans.
there are more than 73 million children in the United States.
* 40%—29.2 million—live in low-income families.
* 18%—13.5 million—live in poor families.
Does the percent of children in low-income families vary by race and ethnicity?
* 63% of Latino children—8.9 million—live in low-income families.
* 61% of black children—6.6 million—live in low-income families.
* 30% of Asian children—0.9 million—live in low-income families.
* 27% of white children—11.7 million—live in low-income families.
Families with incomes below this level are referred to as low income:
* $40,000 for a family of 4.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:04 pm* $33,200 for a family of 3.
* $26,400 for a family of 2.
And how much has the cost of having a house built dropped?
April 5th, 2006 at 8:05 pmDear Trueblue
April 5th, 2006 at 8:06 pmPerhaps one of the reasons for "crap" pay in San Antonio is the swollen labor pool?
As far as reportiong the employers, last year only 22 companies were charged nation wide.
I'm certain that more than the 22 were reported.
It would appear to me that this is an enforcement problem.
And I agree that the administration is corrupt, but the problem remains.....
Enforce the employment laws then secure the border.
Actually that is mostly true! Due to our system. The more kids you have the more money you get from the government. Therefore, there are in fact a larger number of poor people with more children than rich people.
Comment by RemoveBush — April 5, 2006 @ 7:52 pm
I cannot imagine having a child just to milk the system. I'm sure there are a few desperate people who do, as I am not fond of absolutes - but I won't believe that it is the majority. I think most people have children because they want to have children - whether poor, middle class or rich.
I'd like to see numbers showing that there's a distinction between poor people having more children than rich people. Otherwise, it's simply an opinion.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:09 pm#37
You did not adress whether those the indigent mothers of the 1400 children in Dallas are predominantly hispanic....
That's a health insurance issue, which they couldn't get if they wanted it because of the ways insurance is set up. They can't afford it because they are in low value added jobs.
Why are 1 in 4 drivers uninsured in Texas? 1.)Some people live in the middle of nowhere where getting insurance would be stupid - the cows pose the biggest threat. 2.)Insurance is expensive 3.) Insurance may have become prohibitively expensive due to accidents, etc.
Many of your ranchers are probably uninsured.
People only get insurance if they feel they need it ----which is why people in MA haven't been getting it. If you are well off, what could possibly go wrong?
Invest in your education and move the debate to getting other Americans to do so as well. Allow real vocational training early on - some kids aren't going to college.
The AMT is actually tax reform in disguise. It gets what the repubs want - less deductions. I don't feel like compounding the interest, but everyone will be hit in a few decades if the inflation isn't removed from the law.
I believe AMT's inflation index is the 'headline' inflation rate rather than the core rate which excludes energy and food (volatile components). Because of that, more people are hit than otherwise - the core cpi is the inflation measure the Federal Reserve prefers.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:11 pmWiscoDuk
"And how much has the cost of having a house built dropped?"
The price of the project has risen. The profits are kept by the contractor.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:13 pmAnd the wage differance is funded by the tax payer for indigent care social services food stamps etc.
I would have to agree. Having children has become as much of a luxury as owning a mansion, driving a Rolls Royce, or buying a yacht:
Comment by unbelievable — April 5, 2006 @ 6:26 pm
In retrospect, I want to clarify that I agree with the part about people not having more children. All people. Not because I think poor people will have children for the tax breaks, That part, I do not agree with. I don't think poor people, by large, have children for that reason. Just wanted to make that clear as this portion of the subject progresses.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:15 pm#41
Look at the above stats. 61 percent of blacks/African American are from low income families.
This correlation does not imply causation because of income or some way to game the system.
But, the system as setup currently does not penalize people who are poor from having children. As such, it's not economically hurtful to have more which impedes family planning etc
If you know your kid will get free lunches, food stamps/debit cards, free health care and dentist visits through Medicaid, etc why not have more children? Those are costs that all taxpayers bear, not the individual.
As it is though, the welfare system has been reformed to an extent to where it isn't attractive to have kids for money. But there's no downside either in any meaningful way.
Mind you, I am talking of a downside at a certain point. Obviously most mothers couldn't tolerate 8 kids.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:17 pm#44
Understood. Poor people continue to have children because there is no disincentive not too.
They also tend to have less access to family planning and be less 'mobile' in that they have less education and are tied to a place (and man).
Birth rates have to do with lots of things, but some are : education, mobility, relationships, family planning knowledge, religious positions, etc.
I'd say education ranks way up there.
Religion does to an extent with immigrants who adhere to faiths that denounce family planning and whose culture enjoys large families.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:21 pmBefore I head out, I wanted to mention that 1. I really believe 'illegal' immigrants should be allowed to stay by going through an application that ensures they are either working or attached to someone who is.
THE ONLY REASON THERE IS ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS BECAUSE THE USA INSISTS ON INSANE QUOTAS FOR SOUTH/CENTRAL AMERICA. There is a demand that needs to be met. Our politicians can't bring themselves to allow a legal supply.
2. Immigrants, particularly the lower skilled, are good for the economy as they get students to aim higher than driving a tractor, picking weeds, building houses, etc (I'm not trying to hurt anyone here, this is a vast generalization). It gives US natives a reason to invest in themselves through education.
Education powers our economy and increases productivity as well as the necessary capital component of our economy.
3. Most : Get them out! excuses are racially charged. Repubs are scared they'll get outvoted by the illegals kids. Even more frightening is the day when whites become a minority (2050 and whites will no longer be the largest group, asians will).
April 5th, 2006 at 8:26 pm"I’d like to see numbers showing that there’s a distinction between poor people having more children than rich people. Otherwise, it’s simply an opinion."
Really?
Try going to any low income area and spend the day there. Notice how many families of LOW INCOME have many children. 3 or more. When you have done that, then go to a HIGH INCOME area and notice how many children each family has.
This is NOT an opinion. Maybe you should consider getting out more, because this is fact. The low income don't have the money to go out as often, so what does that lead to??? They have sex. With more sex, comes more children.
Obviously, people who don't see this are either ignorant or rich? This is a very serious issue because of the "pay to play" system we have for parents. This is a FACT, that the more kids a mother has the more money she gets from the government. If you don't believe this, do some research and find out for yourself. I know because I had friends who's mother had many children just to get more money from the government.
It's not a great life, but if you really don't want to work, or can't find a job, then having kids is a nice way to get an income.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:27 pm#43-
My comment was a poor attempt a sarcasm-
Read post #72 from yesterdays “Bush Waves the Mexican Flagâ€- You’ll get the gist on my feelings about the matter.
(BTW- I’m a union signatory mechanical contractor)
April 5th, 2006 at 8:34 pmIf you know your kid will get free lunches, food stamps/debit cards, free health care and dentist visits through Medicaid, etc why not have more children? Those are costs that all taxpayers bear, not the individual.
Comment by James — April 5, 2006 @ 8:17 pm
How much do people get because of the tax credit? Food stamps? Benefits? Is it much? I don't know. But, I'm guessing it's not enough to cover the cost of raising a child by a long shot. I don't think these things are factored into most people's decisions whether or not they will have a child. I just don't think it's logical.
Personally, I have a problem with people thinking it's their right to breed. They have a choice. The child has no choice. What about its rights to be fed and clothed and raised properly? As much as I know, having grown up in a lower middle class family that money isn't everything - I also know that it is necessary to a point. People should be responsible when the reproduce. No one needs to have 4,5, 6, 7 , 10 children. And it's selfish to have that many. Because we have a limited number of resources, jobs, space to fit the people who are born into it. And with 6.4 billion folks on the globe, it's become increasingly hostile and competitive for just the basics in life.
If we keep going, unresponsibly, we will find ourselves in a crisis like China is in. Having been there, and having had friends who are Chinese, I can say that they are in a big mess. It's polluted, they are all struggling, and they now have a situation where the youngest generation is made up of predominantly first born, only child males (4:1 ration of boys to girls). One problem has generated another.
If we don't learn to control our population, it will control us.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:37 pmI would like to clarify a few things that supporters of the judiciary committee bill seem to be confused about:
Every nation is a nation of immigrants, not just America. Even the Native Americans (Indians) were immigrants as they migrated from Asia during the Ice Age. It is not as if people just suddenly appear in a particular area of the world and claim themselves to be a sovereign country. I don’t understand why you and the other Senators on the floor keep saying this and citing how your parents came to America (Ellis Island) from Europe in the early 1900s. There is nothing unique about it.
There is a difference between a legal and an illegal immigrant. You often mesh these two groups together to make your argument seem more compelling. The immigrants that came in the early 1900s were largely legal; the immigrants that are coming now are largely ILLEGAL. I am pro-legal immigration, but anti-illegal immigration.
Our economy will not collapse if the current crop of illegals were forced out. How did the U.S. survive 15 years ago when there weren’t 12 million illegals in the country? We were able to find legal workers to do manual farm labor back then so why can’t we now? Obviously, the current crop of illegals couldn’t be made to all quit at one time; they would need to be gradually replaced with American citizens and future flows of LEGAL immigrants.
Illegals add more cost than benefit to our economy. I think if you look at the legitimate independent studies, you will find that illegals take more away from the economy than they pay in taxes and the polls suggest that most Americans think the same thing. As you know, we have a progressive tax system, meaning the poor (like the illegals) pay the least in taxes and you will find they there are plenty of examples of hospitals by the border that had to close their doors due to financial problems. Many illegals don’t have health insurance so they go to the emergency room to get treatment and never pay. Perhaps immigrants as a whole add more to the economy than they take out, but here again, you have to distinguish between the legal and the ILLEGAL immigrant. Additionally, as you well know, much of the money these Illegals make they send back to their families in Latin America; they don’t spend it here in our economy.
We are a still a nation of compassion by making them now leave. We were plenty compassionate enough when we let them illegally stay and work in our country for the past 20 years. Now it is time to claim the rule of law. The kids that will potentially be broken away from their parents have nobody to blame but the parents themselves who chose to sneak across the Arizona desert in the middle of the night. They parents knew that they could eventually be deported so they can take their anger out on themselves, not the American government.
The illegals do jobs Americans won’t do FOR THE LOW WAGES. There are plenty of under-educated and low-skilled natural born American citizens who would gladly pick apples or wash dishes, but they won’t do it for $4-5/hour, nor should they have to. Additionally, it is much easier for an employer to just pick up a bunch of illegals standing on a street corner than to go to an employment agency or post an advertisement and wait for a response, which is how most of these low-skilled Americans get jobs (not standing on a street corner). Third, how does the government know the illegals are doing jobs Americans won’t do if the jobs are already taken up by the illegals. So, those are the 3 reasons illegals are getting American jobs: pay, accessibility, and illegals already having the jobs.
If this bill is passed the current crop of illegals WILL be jumping in front of the line. The current illegals may have to pay a fine, learn to speak English, sign up for a 6 year worker program, etc., and may get deported if they don’t pass all the tests, but the current crop of foreigners who are waiting to legally get processed into this country must wait in THEIR COUNTRY of origin, while the illegals get to stay OUR COUNTRY during the process. Those law-abiding foreigners who are waiting don’t get that luxury.
There is a way to get the illegals to leave without forcefully rounding them up. Don’t allow them work at our jobs, don’t allow them to go to our schools, don’t allow them to be treated at our hospitals, don’t allow them to use our social services, etc. and they won’t have a reason to stay here. Most will return to their home country and truly get in the back of the line to become an immigrant the right way- legally. And if the employers continue to hire them, if the school administrators continue to admit them, etc. then put those people in jail, don’t just fine them. Furthermore, the proposal you support would still have deport the millions of illegalss who couldn’t jump through all of the hoops of the “guest-worker†program so why are you so anti- deportation
All of the noise created by the pro illegal immigration crowd protests in L.A. is misguided. First off, many of those people aren’t citizens meaning their political opinion means nothing. Second, many of those people are kids searching for an identity or looking for an excuse to cut class. Third, waving the Mexican and Columbian flags in order to gain citizenship is not what I call assimilation. Fourth and foremost why don’t they use all of that emotion to go back home and fix their own countries so they don’t have to come to ours? Many of their home countries have governments marked by corruption and abuse and mismanaged economies. If they can assemble 500,000 strong in a single U.S. city they should be able to do the same on the steps of the capital in Mexico City and have their own revolution. They were willing to risk their lives coming here (as the supporters of this bill so often point out) why not use all of that desire to fix their country of origin because ultimately that is the source of this whole problem.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:41 pmUnderstood. Poor people continue to have children because there is no disincentive not too.
They also tend to have less access to family planning and be less ‘mobile’ in that they have less education and are tied to a place (and man).
What do you suggest as a disincentive?
Birth rates have to do with lots of things, but some are : education, mobility, relationships, family planning knowledge, religious positions, etc.
Probably across the board and not just poor people.
I’d say education ranks way up there.
Maybe, I don't know enough to agree or disagree. I should go do some research and find out.
Religion does to an extent with immigrants who adhere to faiths that denounce family planning and whose culture enjoys large families.
Comment by James — April 5, 2006 @ 8:21 pm
No argument from me on that. I am a huge critic of organized religion. I think it wants its followers to spit out more followers, regardless of the conditions they are spit into.
And I see it a lot here in the South where I grew up. Lots of teenage girls having babies here. We have quite a few at school walking around pregnant right now. It's eye-opening...
April 5th, 2006 at 8:43 pmNo prob, Remove Bush!
And I appreciate your comment, Bush is not a Texan.
He's actually from around my area - New England.
There is no cut and dry solution to this. I simply added my 2 cents.
I'm signing off for the night. My daughter likes us to watch "Lost" together.
Thanks for the conversation.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:44 pmJames thanks for your points. What other state can you get a one month insurance policy for your vehicle.?I cant imagine with a population in excess of 20 million people that there are that many rural drivers without insurance. I don't buy the line about why have insurance what could go wrong , what about Liability, civil suits? If insurance is expensive why can I be sued if I'm involved in an accident and be taken to the cleaners for not having it? So if I can afford it I can be held accountable for the same use of the roads but some one who uses the same road who cannot afford it is somehow less culpable? As far as Parkland and their indigent birth stats I do not know, but when I had neighbors, who's cousins after sneaking in thru Laredo, came to Dallas the first agenda was to have a child and they didn't go to Presbyterian to have their kids. Ever been to Parkland? I don't think the Triage nurses speak Nigerian or Korean. Let's say you have 50 people who come here to do the jobs Americans don't want and on any given day there are only 30 jobs available , what are the other 20 going to do? Crime. Dignity in the form of appeasment doesn't have to come at the expense of citizens who obey Federal and local laws.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:44 pmThis is NOT an opinion. Maybe you should consider getting out more, because this is fact. The low income don’t have the money to go out as often, so what does that lead to??? They have sex. With more sex, comes more children.
Comment by RemoveBush — April 5, 2006 @ 8:27 pm
I should have known better than to have gone near you again. Lesson learned. I won't read your posts anymore, or respond.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:46 pmThis nation is now divided over the issue of immigration. Have we forgotten that all of us, except the Native American Indians, are all immigrants in this country? Should we strictly round up all the 12 Million illegals, does our country have the facilities where to place all of them? Perhaps, in my blog Little's Blog Things, I should also post a blog on the issue of immigration.
April 5th, 2006 at 8:48 pmDamn James- you're a bright person- but that was an ignorant comment. A bit “elitist†in fact. Many people don’t have the mental capabilities for an education past high school. Unless you went to a private school you know this yourself. As you also know- college challenges “smart†people to the point where many don’t make it through. “Education†isn’t for everyone.
Could you build a house my friend? You may think you could- but you underestimate the skill and ingenuity of a carpenter. This holds true of other skilled trades also. I’m a mechanical contractor with a college degree in mechanical engineering. Many in my employ over the years have astounded me with their skills and “brains†but they struggled with high school.
Same holds true with farmers driving tractors. Do you know anything about farming? It takes much more than you obviously think. I’m a “city boy†transplant into a rural area. These farmers have much more on the ball than given credit for. I know I couldn’t do it.
You need to ponder your comments a bit deeper.
April 5th, 2006 at 9:11 pmJoe
April 5th, 2006 at 9:11 pmThank you for your points IMHO you are 100% correct.
If someone breaks into your home do you reward them? No they have broken the law. As far as illegals and alleged citizen dependants I'm certain they could return to the country of thier parents with no problems.
"I should have known better than to have gone near you again. Lesson learned. I won’t read your posts anymore, or respond."
Good! I really don't like debating with someone who can't think for themselves or discuss things with an open mind.
The less I have to debate you the more I can put my efforts to logical thinking people and those that can carry on a conversation in a rational manner.
April 5th, 2006 at 9:43 pmThe report written by Mr. Krueger could have been written by the White House spin machine. Some people understand the issue. Some people don't. We have a massive border security problem that is affecting american communities and american workers. When a business hires an illegal immigrant over an american worker because he wants to cut costs. who wins in that equation?
April 5th, 2006 at 9:46 pmAttention to those who believe Mr. Bush is our current problem: he will choose a heir to continue the Bush doctrine, we must stop whoever that is.
April 5th, 2006 at 9:48 pmThe statement that immigrants don't drive down the wages of low income workers is pure crap. Spoken by some egghead that has no concept of the real world out here. I am one of those low income workers in the hotel industry in Branson Missouri. Labor is in short supply and instead of offering higher wages to attract more workers, they import labor from Jamaica and Mexico. The immigrants are fine people and good workers just trying to make a better life but they definitly upset the whole concept of supply and demand in the labor market. My employer could double the wages of a maid and add only $3 to their room rate and have all the employees they need. But of course the immigrants keep the wages low and the boss can buy another new Cadillac next year and do another month in Europe. They got their prioities. The old bull shit about immigrants taking jobs Americans don't want doesn't hold water. Wages should rise in a free market to a level the supply of labor is adequate for the job. If the work is shit, it should be obvious it has to be the pay level that attracts workers. Shit job with crappy pay attracts no one.
April 5th, 2006 at 10:01 pm#62
Great point Bubba-
People also seem to forget that hiring illegal "aliens" is illegal. Today I heard (on a reightwing talk show) that not one fine was paid by an American business caught violating this law.
April 5th, 2006 at 10:11 pm#62
Great point Bubba
People also seem to forget that hiring illegal "aliens" is illegal. Today I heard (on a reightwing talk show) that in 2005- not one fine was paid by an American business caught violating this law.
April 5th, 2006 at 10:13 pmWell, assuming all 12 million are working, the impact must be 12 million jobs, as stated, and at some wage below minimun wage, and omitted from all other government compliance like unemployment, workman comp, etc., otherwise why bother, right. Businesses have an economic incentive, to use illegal aliens to by-pass government compliance, and the rules in place are not being enforced.
Still don't know how undocumented workers could be paying taxes to the IRS on an official basis if they aren't official; maybe it depends on the definition of illegal is? There was a BLS statistic that stated that this contributed to "about 50% of the decline in real wages for the lowest-skilled workers."
Board of Directors are telling us, that CEO need large compensation packages, because of supply and demand. If it is true at that level, isn't it true at the other end of the wage scale?
FL had a program on about meth. They said we can thank Mexico, for easy access to the main ingredient ephedrine. Mexico's pharmacies are suppose to limit sales, but they'll sell any amount. They showed a local hand that worked in the fields and lived in a run down house on the property. DEA agents were cleaning the house out, including the kids bedrooms, of all the stuff to make meth. The owner had just given the hand a raise to $6 after 3 years. The owner said he was his best worker. Then the DEA agents went to the farm hand's truck and found a bag filled with $26,000.
I would say that you aren't living in the real world if you don't believe wages are driven down and communities are impacted, just like the hb-1's --- and you'll notice that certain professions are protected; man, what a good lobbyist will get ya. Event the famous labor leader Caesar Chávez understood this. They have more needs and more kids, and are extreme burden on communities already cash strapped. I don't mean it in a good or bad way, the fact is, they are. And their kids are forming gangs, and it escalates. Who cares, the rich folks can go live in their gated communities. I'd like to know more about gangs like MS-13 and immigration; perhap they need one of the jobs.
April 5th, 2006 at 10:18 pmAnyone who thinks the CAP study about the costs of deporting all illegal aliens should slog their way through this. The CAP study was basically a bad joke using extraordinarily faulty assumptions. You don't need to have taken a single statistics course to see how bad it was.
Now, they've got a new study? No thanks.
April 5th, 2006 at 10:32 pm[...] read more from (thinkprogress.org)Â here : http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/05/immigration-us-workers/Â [...]
April 5th, 2006 at 10:45 pmstop giving them work, find the companies large amount of money, you said they will leave if they canot work think again if its happen you will have more crime think
April 5th, 2006 at 10:50 pm#16: "Second, most of the money they make usually goes back to Mexico. Since they are illegal, how can they pay taxes????? Unless they have an illegal SSN, they cannot pay taxes. Therefore, they are not only taking a job that an American can do, but also not contributing to the country by paying taxes."
April 5th, 2006 at 10:56 pmYou obvioulsly are a person who makes enough money that the amount taken out of your paycheck isn't enough, and you have to pay more.
If you don't make very much, often you get a tax return (a quaint, almost extinct animal), and the illegal immigrants who are working with either false SS#s or with one that really is assigned to someone else, do not get the return. So that money stays in the bank.
Except of course when you go to get your retirement and discober that your SS pay rate is much higher than it ought to be for what you earned, in which case you can thank some poor illegal for the bonus.
"stop giving them work, find the companies large amount of money, you said they will leave if they canot work think again if its happen you will have more crime think
Comment by george — April 5, 2006 @ 10:50 pm"
Sure some crime will increase, but eventually it will go down. The fact is that if you take the money out of the equation there is nothing else for them to hold onto.
Once the crime starts to increase, the more people will become involved and the more the deportation will take place. Hence, those that don't leave voluntarily will be caught eventually through criminal actions and deported.
So george, your telling me that if you moved to Poland and you cannot find work or get work because you don't speak the language or are not a leagal resident, that you would stay? I don't think so!
April 5th, 2006 at 11:00 pm"You obvioulsly are a person who makes enough money that the amount taken out of your paycheck isn’t enough, and you have to pay more."
No! It's that I have been around and I have lived most of my life in a state that is a HUGE illegal alien state.
"If you don’t make very much, often you get a tax return (a quaint, almost extinct animal), and the illegal immigrants who are working with either false SS#s or with one that really is assigned to someone else, do not get the return. So that money stays in the bank.
Except of course when you go to get your retirement and discober that your SS pay rate is much higher than it ought to be for what you earned, in which case you can thank some poor illegal for the bonus.
Comment by SKdeA — April 5, 2006 @ 10:56 pm"
Your making the assumption that most ALL of these workers are using SS Numbers. The opposite is the case. More illegal aliens are paid UNDER the table than those that use fake SSN or someone elses SSN.
April 5th, 2006 at 11:05 pmBut as Princeton University professor Alan Krueger shows in a new American Progress memo, the actual impact of immigration on lower-skilled workers is negligible. Why?
One likely factor is that, in addition to increasing the supply of labor, immigrants increase the demand for goods and services produced in the U.S. This leads to higher wages and employment for all workers in the U.S. Immigration can also result in an increase in capital investment. And many immigrants become entrepreneurs, creating jobs for other immigrants and natives. (The latest U.S. Census data shows that “Hispanic-owned businesses now comprise one of the fastest-growing segments in the U.S. economy.â€)
Princeton University professor Alan Krueger
That's why Krueger is teaching. This person has little or no understanding in the real world. Here is the proof.
The fact that "many " immigrants become entrepreneurs is meaningless. Just as low income immigrants compete with low income citizens so to do immigrant entrepreneurs compete with American entrepreneurs. This fact is seen in the cleaning industry where immigrants are willing too undercut the rates of citizens who need a living wage. I have had offers on more than one occasion to reduce the cost of cleaning my office spaces as well as the exterior of my buildings and landscaping. In my case the offers come largely from Canadians. Several of these folks are from Indian reservations north of the border who come here to work and take the money back with them.
The argument that the increases demand for goods caused by immigration offsets the impact of wages makes no sense at all. It is similar to the argument that welfare recipients pay taxes when they purchase certain goods. You get back only a small fraction of the cost incurred.
In addition to the effect on low income wages illegal immigration costs us in many ways. As Jack points out, many immigrants are paid under the table. Not only is this money not taxed but it ends out leaving the country as well. Contrast that with the larger wages that would be paid to citizens, taxed, and then circulated here instead of leaving the country.
Also, don't be fooled by figures which claim that illegal don't use more resources than do Americans. The children of illegal born on US soil are instantly citizens. Many illegal collect money as guardians of these anchor babies. I haven't even touched on health care and education costs. Who pays for all this? US citizens. This takes money and diverts resources from our own citizens in countless ways. Smarten up people.
April 5th, 2006 at 11:17 pmAs I am writing this there are 72 comments listed. Not one has corrected the economist's name. The man is Paul KRUGMAN. I thought that the people who read this blog were up on who's who in the field of political commentary.
April 5th, 2006 at 11:53 pmOff this subject: If the crud GOP members in DC want McKinney to be prosecuted for hitting a police security guard, because he yanked her arm without any respect, then VP Cheney must be prosecuted for shooting a man in the face while intoxicated which is a felony in Texas!
April 6th, 2006 at 12:34 amYou do know what you are talking about.
There is a difference between legal and illegal aliens. The corporations have used the illegal aliends to destroy the American workers. The corporations have turned this economy into a thrid world economy.
These asshole running these corporations are next for out sourcing. Why have an American Executive when for the price of one you can hire 1000 MBA in India, in China that maybe 10,000. Soon these American Executive will be in the soup line with their silver spoons and cups just like the rest of us.
Retirement is a bogus dream now. They say to retire an AMercian needs $500,000. That right everyone not a half a millionaire is not going to be able to retire like they have been dreaming of doing. The corporations are not going to let that happen. They see your retirement funds as corporate assets will not allow you take it with you to retirement.
Illegal aliens are take your jobs, your positions in college, stealing your tax dollars, and your rights.
Be nice to these criminals? Get real.
April 6th, 2006 at 12:40 amWhat the hell was NAFTA about?
April 6th, 2006 at 1:26 amThe economy is in the toilet. Here in my state Tower moved it Ranger line to Ohio, 300 jobs gone. Tower did not want to deal with the union. Tombstone Pizza part of Krafts division cloesed, 400 jobs gone. The Gehl Company which maded small farm machinery closed their doors, 140 jobs gone.
WHERE ARE ALL THE JOBS THAT OLD BUSHIE CREATOR? GONE TO MEXICO FOR $3.00
April 6th, 2006 at 1:31 amAN HOUR.
This blog article today is shamefully anti-progressive. The foundation of progressivism lies in our commitment to American workers to survive in a culture of corporate robber barons. Defeating the sharecropper philosopies of these draconian, oppressive employers is the heart and soul of American progressivism.
As a native of Idaho, and a member of the working class, I have watched my community suffer as big business imported illegal aliens from Mexico to replace farm workers in Idaho during the 70's and 80's. During the 90's, the illegals were co-opted by the large construction firms to replace what used to be union jobs performed by trained professionals who earned a living wage. Multi-national corporations took over the American landscape during this time as well, hiring illegals for their hotels and restaurants, big-box retailers, manufacturing plants and service industries. My home town (a bedroom community of Boise) went from a peaceful small (and overwhelmingly non-hispanic) agricultural community of 20,000 people, to a town of nearly 75,000, with over half of Mexican descent. In the truly rural farm towns of Idaho, the displacement was even more dramatic. Along with the illegal immigrants comes the crime and violence associated with people oppressed beyond their means; working for far less than liveable wages. As a result, they are forced to survive by stealing and selling drugs, placing their neighbors at risk, and ultimately falling into the social safety net that our progressive forefathers worked so hard to create for Americans in need.
This type of wholesale change in culture is driven by corrupt, regressive politicians that do the bidding of their multi-national corporate donors. They have wiped out small farms and local business owners by importing this virtual slave labor to replace hard working Americans. The first amnesty program under Reagan was an incredible failure, and it was rife with fraud and exploitation commited by the government and its agents. Citizenship paperwork was bought and sold in my hometown, taking advantage of illegals who didn't know any better.
Amnesty and subsequent naturalization sends absolutely the wrong message to Mexican illegal immigrants, and to our own American workers! It absolutely hurts American workers, American communities, and American businesses in every way imaginable. It encourages illegal immigration with the promise of future citizenship for breaking the law.
If ever there were a core issue to the progressive movement, this is it! Immigration and the employment (oppression) of illegal aliens by big corporations are two entirely separate issues. When it comes to the employment of illegals over Americans (of any national origin), Progressives must be the loudest voices calling for the end to corporate abuse. Allowing "guest workers" is a repugnant idea! When Bush or anyone insinuates that we need illegal immigrants "to do jobs that Americans won't do", we need to shove that kind of slave owner thinking right out into the public sphere and make them eat their words! Americans will do any job available, so long as it pays a liveable wage. Our corrupt system of illegal immigrant exploitation is shameful, and harmful to everyone involved in it except for the greedy corporations that make off with the profits.
April 6th, 2006 at 2:23 amLooks like Democrats can't get their story straight. TP serves up another example of how their agenda changes whenever there's an opportunity for political gain.
August 5, 1993
The Office of Sen. Harry Reid issued the following:
In response to increased terrorism and abuse of social programs by aliens, Sen. Harry Reid (D-Nev.) today introduced the first and only comprehensive immigration reform bill in Congress.
Currently, an alien living illegally in the United States often pays no taxes but receives unemployment, welfare, free medical care and other federal benefits. Recent terrorist acts, including the World Trade Center bombing, have underscored the need to keep violent criminals out of the country.
Reid's bill, the Immigration Stabilization Act of 1993, overhauls the nation's immigration laws and calls for a massive scale-down of immigrants allowed into the country from approximately 800,000 to 300,000.
The bill also changes asylum laws to prevent phony asylum seekers. Reid said the U.S. open door policy is being abused at the expense of honest, working citizens.
"Our borders have overflowed with illegal immigrants placing tremendous burdens on our criminal justice system, schools and social programs," Reid said. "The Immigration and Naturalization Service needs the ability to step up enforcement.
"Our federal wallet is stretched to the limit by illegal aliens getting welfare, food stamps, medical care and other benefits often without paying any taxes."
April 6th, 2006 at 2:43 amReichWing Corporatists vs. Reichwing Racist/Fundamentalists...there really is a God afterall!
April 6th, 2006 at 4:15 amHow is deporting 11,000,000 immigrants doable when we can't even evacuate a quarter of a million out of New Orleans?
Btw, I have Part Two of the Conservative Preschoolers series up: Tom DeLay: Good Hygiene for Dirty Money.
April 6th, 2006 at 7:24 amDeportation is out, but the poster has lost sight of how the struggle for labor rights in this country has been the struggle to limit access to the labor market.
Simple equation: More workers = less pay.
You can't argue this and win, it's just no possible.
April 6th, 2006 at 7:39 amstop giving them work, find the companies large amount of money, you said they will leave if they canot work think again if its happen you will have more crime think
Comment by george — April 5, 2006 @ 10:50 pm
Gotta let the drones breed more drones. The system requires this.
This won't happen. They just want to make sure that the children of the drones don't have equal opportunities as their own children. But you gotta have more drones to work for cheap wages so that you can fund the expensive education of your own children. When the Ameircan drones got cocky and created equal rights, well, the richies just opened the borders to let in new drones who would work for $1 a day and tolerate terrible working conditions. A dollar here buys $20 worth in Chihuahua.
April 6th, 2006 at 8:02 amStudy all you want but I live here in San Diego County (49 years) and I have seen the construction jobs, for instance, go from well paid "apprentice" to "journeyman" levels to dirt paying illegal wages.
I'd say 80 to 90% of the illegal immigration focus is on the Mexican people coming over to work.
How did this happen considering that the source of the problem is those who hire?
Answer:
The corporate media puts the focus on the Mexicans and this plays nicely into inherent racist tendencies of a frightened public, all the while taking the spotlight off the real culprits...the employers.
Fact is; many "special interest", that benefit from having a sub-class of "under-the-table" workers, directly or indirectly, contribute to political campaigns and advertise on the mainstream media.
We the working-class get screwed again.
Nothing, I mean absolutely nothing, will be solved without a comprehensive approach which INCLUDES tough employer sanctions such as stiff fines, loss of business or property, and prison time.
April 6th, 2006 at 8:04 amBut who will push this?
Nothing, I mean absolutely nothing, will be solved without a comprehensive approach which INCLUDES tough employer sanctions such as stiff fines, loss of business or property, and prison time.
But who will push this?
Comment by SHRED — April 6, 2006 @ 8:04 am
That is the answer to put it back on the people who designed the system. The problem is that those people are also running the country, and own the congress, senate and white house public servants. So, no one will push it through, except for an angry mob. But right now, the mob is no where close to angry as long as the Tivo is working and Walmart is open 24/7.
April 6th, 2006 at 8:13 amThink Progress must not be thinking at all with this entry. It's completely rediculous to say illegal immigrants working for peanuts don't drive down wages for everyone.
And that's really beside the point, anyway. They are F**KING ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS! They broke the law. That means they are criminals, and should be treated as such, period.
Criminals, Law Breakers, Illegals - GET IT everyone?
April 6th, 2006 at 8:23 amI think unless you're in construction or some labor industry that's been or is being decimated by the influx of illegals you ought to stay out of it.How many of you that support open border work in jobs that are being flooded with illegals? I am. I work construction and since 1999 my pay has gone from $17.41 an hour to $10.75 an hour. How many of you are trying to live on $10.75 an hour?
Jose, his wife, his two brothers, their wives and, I swear I'm not making this up, half a dozen chickens move in next to me. Jose and his two brothers work construction too. Our homes are the same size so we pay the same rent each month. They have six adults paying their rent so they afford to work for $8.00. For me to be able to compete in the workplace and pay my bills I've got to take a cut in pay, take in five roommates and start raising chickens. Jose and his family have fucked my whole life up.
April 6th, 2006 at 9:06 amhttp://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2006/tst040306.htm
April 6th, 2006 at 9:07 amIt's simple economics.
April 6th, 2006 at 9:08 amThe solution to this one is very simple.
Open the boarders but do away with the welfare system and social support systems that allow people to come here and live without contributing to the system. To allow someone to come into this country and live illegally without paying taxes yet allow the to claim welfare is insane, and it happens all the time. The more children, the bigger the check. I used to work in an area where there was a high ration of illegal immigrants. It was sad to see all the 13 year old pregnant girls with not future for themselves and their babies. And this is in Georgia, not a border state! Also allowing someone to have a child that is an American citizen just because they crossed the border a few weeks before and are in the country illegally is ridiculous.
Sure it is very nice to have social support systems but look at places like the Netherlands which are now in trouble due to their immigration and social policies.
Basically, anyone that wants to work hard and contribute to society should be welcome. Do away with the "nanny state" and you only those who are willing to contribure will bother to come here.
April 6th, 2006 at 9:16 amAnd sorry for the grammatical errors. Unlike many of the illegal immigrants being discussed, I'm having to focus on work while posting to this. :-)
April 6th, 2006 at 9:19 amAnd for those that post after. Relax, that was a joke.
Yes please don't fall into the Corperate line!!!!
Jobs Americans won't do?????PAY A LIVING WAGE
April 6th, 2006 at 9:19 amI think unless you’re in construction or some labor industry that’s been or is being decimated by the influx of illegals you ought to stay out of it.How many of you that support open border work in jobs that are being flooded with illegals? I am. I work construction and since 1999 my pay has gone from $17.41 an hour to $10.75 an hour. How many of you are trying to live on $10.75 an hour?
Comment by Thomas — April 6, 2006 @ 9:06 am
I experienced a level of this as an architect in San Francisco. People on work visas, mostly from countries with no real civil rights, were willing to tolerate a lot more than our culture has raised us to expect. Lower wages, excessive overtime without pay, working through lunch (and dinner) on a regular basis, and accepting direspectful behavior from supervisors.
It seemed to me to be a cultural issue. Here, we've always been the country who stood up for the little guy, making the American Dream available to anyone who pursued it with conviction, and tried to level the playing field so that everyone could at least be 'comfortable'. But then a few selfish Corpate hogs went and ruined it. They wanted more than their share. They didn't care who they hurt or who they stepped upon to get more and more and more. Like greedy little kids in an unlocked candy store. Don't stop to think of consequences or ramifications of their greed. And they fail to understand the Butterfly Effect of taking more than you need. Chaos.
I think the people here who are advocating that the resolution to this problem should include those industrialists who are willing to exploit different cultures to their advantage are correct. You can't blame someone for wanting an opportunity to make his or her life 'comfortable' (though living with six adults and a yard full of chickens isn't my ideal :). But you definitely can blame those who want to make their lives excessive and flamboyant at the cost of millions. And that is exactly the system we current have in place. Well, until we get tired of tolerating it.
April 6th, 2006 at 9:21 amThe solution to this one is very simple.
Open the boarders but do away with the welfare system and social support systems that allow people to come here and live without contributing to the system.
Comment by Thought — April 6, 2006 @ 9:16 am
I think that will create an even bigger mess. Look at how much people fight in countries where resources are limited and the population is explosive. You can take your pick of just about any one on the continent of Africa. And most in the Middle East. We have too many people in the system to allow a 'free for all' system. There are some prime examples in Europe of what happens when you over regulate a dense population and under regulate Capitalism. There have to be controls in place on both sides of the fence to deal with the extremists who would exploit the situation. After all, it takes two to tango. There are people willing to break the law to get here, and people willing to use that system to their advantage. I think we keep immigration a legal process to be followed, and enforce it, while cracking down on those employers who hire them.
April 6th, 2006 at 9:35 amThanks for your post unbelievalbe. I agree with your comment. Though I do wonder how many people would actually bother to come here if we didn't hold their hand. We might end up with pocket of extreme poverty but we seem to have those already.
Really, how many people would come here knowing they had to really work? We hear a lot about the "hard working immigrants" and that is true. There are a lot of them, but I have to offer the thought that the real problem isn't the working illegal immigrants, but the non-working ones who live of the system.
There's definitely not perfect solution and I'm too much of a cynic to believe we would ever do away with welfare entirely, but not giving people a reason to come here illegally does seem to be a good place to start.
April 6th, 2006 at 9:40 amfrom #1 thru #90
this is one of the best on- line discussions i have ever read thru.
what is really impressive to me is two things:
1) there are people who are really being hurt by wage competiton from illegals
and
2) these people are amzingly (for us americans) kindly and decent in their consideration of the illegals as humans.
but these americans are adamant that they need some relief from wage depression.
if i understand the commenters, the greatest consequences for current citizens is along the mexican border.
we have not heard from them here, but i understand that a large number of farmers and ranchers along the border also feel that they have lost control. of who passes over their land
and of their family's security on those farms and ranches
my own small window on imigration allows me to see
central american (non-mexican) immigrants who:
- have left their young wives and young children in their country
- say they come here because there are no jobs
-- send every dime they can back to their families but have trouble saving those dimes given the expense of living in this country
- go back to their country as soon as they can
- relay the message back here that there still are no jobs in their country besides agriculture
- live 4-6 men in low rent apartments
- are exceptionally bright
- are exceptionally hard working
- are exceptionally supportive of each other
- take extremely dangerous and uncertain routes thru their own country and mexico to get here.
my guess is that the pressure of poverty on these folks seems so great that i cannnot imagine them not continuing to thake these risks.
nor can i imagine any police or quasi-military solution that would work.
tentative conclusion:
this problem of illegal immigration is a tough one that requires a competent, caring, and politically imaginative national government to solve.
where can we find that?
April 6th, 2006 at 9:53 amno offense intended for #91-95. i just started writing at #90.
April 6th, 2006 at 9:54 amThere’s definitely not perfect solution and I’m too much of a cynic to believe we would ever do away with welfare entirely, but not giving people a reason to come here illegally does seem to be a good place to start.
Comment by Thought — April 6, 2006 @ 9:40 am
Nice to have a rational discussion, Thought. Thanks for teh civility. Sure the flaming arguments can sometimes be fun, but they rarely accomplish much. You said that you live in Georgia? Me too. I grew up here and then moved back last year to change careers (teaching). Don't think I'll be staying though. Too long in California, I think, to fit back in.
I don't believe we'd have these problems if we didn't have too many people on the planet. But since they are here, I think regulation is going to be the only way to effectively deal with it. Kind of how they heard the school children in mega schools to and from lunch in shifts, so that 2500 students at one time wouldn't create a problem where the bigger, stronger kids always got to eat, while the rest went hungry, or started fights to steal food away from those who got in line first. I think it's a similar analogy to the population problem. We have to start educating people of the ramifications of having too many children. Organized religion needs to stop telling people to 'go forth and multiply'. We are forcing a system of Darwinism that even Charles himself did not predict. And the consequences are getting really toxic.
April 6th, 2006 at 9:55 amThere is a simple way to deal with illegal immigration and it doesn't deal with fences, welfare or anything. The only way to combat illegal immigration is to stop making it profitable for a company to hire illegal immigrants. The only reason illegal immigrants keep coming to this country is simply supply and demand. As long as there are jobs for the illegal immigrants, they will come here to fill them.
April 6th, 2006 at 10:26 amThe way to combat this is simple, go where the money is. If any company is found hiring illegal workers, fine them and fine them BIG (I would even consider taking all profits from a certain number of previous years)! We have to make it so companies will not profit from hiring illegal workers and will then have to compete for American workers. Illegal immigrants will have little reason to come to this country, if they have no jobs that are willing to risk hiring them.
The most important thing about this method is enforcement of the companies is essential. This would also require the companies to perform more work to document that each employee is a legal employee.
My problem with this post is that you're conflating immigration, which I think we can all agree is a tremendous net benefit to the U.S. economy -- and illegal immigration, which presents a net cost to U.S. workers.
Most studies agree that some eight in ten illegal migrants are low skilled workers who lack the equivalent of a U.S. high school diploma. Most are working for cash, in jobs that pay depressed wages. And increasingly, American employers and industries are shifting what used to be middle class wage jobs (construction, restaurant work, skilled tile and roof work, etc.) to low wage workers, whether domestic or imported, and in many cases, they aren't asking for a green card. That means that as whole industries shift from working wages to substandard wages, more Americans "won't do" those jobs because they can't afford to. And illegal immigrants consume some $89,000 more in social services (mostly medical care, food stamps and the like) than they pay into the system.
Not to agree with Rich Lowry, whom I generally find rather loathesome, but importing the poverty of another country (60% of illegal immigration is from Mexico, which sustains its economy with oil imports -- #1 and remittances from overseas workers -- #2 in the rankings -- cannot possibly be a sound economic strategy for the U.S. going forward. To again paraphrase Lowry, if having large numbers of low skilled, low wage workers, even by importing them, was really the key to strong economic growth, Mexico would be a superpower.
April 6th, 2006 at 10:29 amTo again paraphrase Lowry, if having large numbers of low skilled, low wage workers, even by importing them, was really the key to strong economic growth, Mexico would be a superpower.
Comment by JReid — April 6, 2006 @ 10:29 am
Hard to argue with that.
April 6th, 2006 at 10:36 amHey unbelievable,
True it's good to have a productive discussion.
Yup. Georgia is a decent place to live but I understand the issues with living here.
I'm not sure about the too many people on the planet idea. We seem to have a lot of open space. Though we do like to congregate in areas and that can cause problems.
I think the real solution almost always comes down to money and hence, supply and demand. Regulation works at times, but most of the time it is corrupt and breaks down. I suppose my point is, we already have laws and regulations against illegal immigration and that doesn't work.
If we remove the financial reasons for people to come here illegally, then in my opinion the issue will balance as close as we can get it to the way it should be.
I completely agree with your thought on fining companies that hire illegal immigrants. But since my main gripe is with non-working illegal immigrants who live off our taxes, I don't think it hits the heart of the problem.
So to combine our thoughts:
Take away the social support (welfare) for illegal immigrants.
Take away the immigration by birth policy for parents who are not legally in this country.
Fine the companies who hire the illegal immigrants and use the money to secure the borders physically (and not put the money in politician interest group pockets). Though this is where the system will eventually break down and the security of the borders will be tacked on to the budget as an emergency spending bill. Sigh.
If we do all these things then I think we would have a good start at a change.
April 6th, 2006 at 10:44 amIf US corporations in Mexico paid a living wage instead of running Maquiladoras Mexicans would not feel the need to come here. It's about economics, stupid.
April 6th, 2006 at 10:44 amIf US corporations in Mexico paid a living wage instead of running Maquiladoras Mexicans would not feel the need to come here. It's about economics, stupid.
April 6th, 2006 at 10:44 amThank you for the amazing insight in your intelligence Jaded. Resorting to name calling tells us so much about you. So does thinking this issue through only half way.
The reason the situation you refer to exists is due to the Mexican govt. allowing such low wages. I'm sure we'll be able to convice the Mexican government to solve our problems for us much easier than anything we can do. Yes, that is sarcasm.
If we remove the want to come here by these underpaid people, perhaps THEY (the people and the govt.) will feel the need solve the problems in THEIR country. Until then, we are basically taken the burden for them.
And by the way, of course it's about economics. That's what I just said in my previous post.
April 6th, 2006 at 11:02 amGreat points... I think we're moving this bus forward :)
I’m not sure about the too many people on the planet idea. We seem to have a lot of open space. Though we do like to congregate in areas and that can cause problems.
Just 'cause it's open doesn't mean we can fill it with people :). There are needs for balance. The whole ecosystem relies on a limited number of any species. Otherwise, when one gets too big, it makes the system suceptible to huge shifts - something it doesn't resolve very easily.
I've seen several studies that indicate the balanced number of people on the planet should be about 250 million. All those mathematical calculations about how 6 billion people could live in Texas on an acre each are unrealistic. Who ever chose Texas for the trick had obviously never been there. There's a good reason most of it is unhabited. Plus there are reasons why we live the way we do. If everyone was living in Texas, there would be no room for roads, hospitals, agriculture, water, plants, waste systems, etc. We simply have a limited humber of resources that we have to share with all life on the planet. And because we have exceeded that level, there are people in teh world dying from famine and a lack of potable water. We just don't see it yet, because it just doesn't make for interesting television.
I think the real solution almost always comes down to money and hence, supply and demand. Regulation works at times, but most of the time it is corrupt and breaks down. I suppose my point is, we already have laws and regulations against illegal immigration and that doesn’t work.
No doubt that supply and demand is at the core of this problem. Illegals want money, and Coropate Gluttons want cheap labor. Integrity and honest get thrown out the window - on both sides of the fence.
If we remove the financial reasons for people to come here illegally, then in my opinion the issue will balance as close as we can get it to the way it should be.
Agreed. Financial reasons for both the illegals and the Corporations.Unless we close both avenues, there will be people breaking the law to get through the one barrier. We need barriers on both sides to cut off the supply on both sides of teh fence.
I completely agree with your thought on fining companies that hire illegal immigrants. But since my main gripe is with non-working illegal immigrants who live off our taxes, I don’t think it hits the heart of the problem.
What I don't understand is how they are qualifying for these services in teh first place. Do you know? Well, we need to stop that as well. Don't allow people to get benefits without proof of residency.
Of course, these systems will be violated by some people. there will always be that and no system is immune from all violations. But if we limit them to becoming the exception rather than the rule, well, then it will be easier for the system to handle the few violations without ruining it for those of us who pay into it.
So to combine our thoughts:
Take away the social support (welfare) for illegal immigrants.
I agree. I have concerns about the children who are involved, and hate to see them suffer when they cannot control tehir parents, but I really do not have a solution for this. Yet :)
Take away the immigration by birth policy for parents who are not legally in this country.
You mean the chidlren would be citizens, but their parents would not get reciprocity? I'm not sure how that would work, but i think it's a valid consideration. Might not be possible to enforce though.
Fine the companies who hire the illegal immigrants and use the money to secure the borders physically (and not put the money in politician interest group pockets). Though this is where the system will eventually break down and the security of the borders will be tacked on to the budget as an emergency spending bill. Sigh.
We have to allow for learning and failing. I mean, that is how we learn - by making mistakes. We just can't do nothing because we might make mistakes. We have to give it an educated effort and adjust when we find the weak points. It's pretty much how we do most things in our own lives.
If we do all these things then I think we would have a good start at a change.
Comment by Thought — April 6, 2006 @ 10:44 am
Now, we have the problem of finding people in authority to carry them out. They will bicker over hair spiitting details for the rest of their natural born lives and accomplish nothing. The buracracy is impeding any steps forward, and I imagine that we will find teh situation just gets worse and worse instead.
I'm enjoying our collaboration. Even if we know it's strictly theoretical, and that what our Administration eventually does will be little more than band-aids on gangrene. As usual.
April 6th, 2006 at 11:19 amThe United States is the only nation in the entire world that has wide open borders and allows millions of destitute people to flood across the borders! The border with Mexico has to be militarized to prevent terrorists from entering our nation now > this has to be done and is not racist! Mexicans, and others who desire to move here, have to apply like everybody else through immigration offices! America cannot absorb millions of undocumented people and whether TP wants to accept it or not > they do keep wages from rising and undermine employment opportunities for American citizens! The government of Mexico is solely responsible for employing its citizenry!
April 6th, 2006 at 11:43 amThis whole "immigration" farce is nothing more than...
...more divide and conquer...
...the rich al Crackers dividing the porr/middle/working class masses against each other...
...so that we can't focus on THEM!
...the criminal TREASONOUS al Cracker Bushites and corporate pirates...
...want immigrant labor because...
...it's like paying protection...
...what do I mean?
...latin america is FINALLY waking up, and its indigenous populations are taking back political power...
...they have been exploited for years by GRINGO (EUROPEAN, WASP, and their Spanish descended traitors) crooks who've raped their natural resources...
...to keep them from organizing and fully venting their war-level anti-American sentiments...
...illegals are allowed to come into the US and work, then send money back to those Latin American countries...
...relieving pressure off of their stagnant economies...
...there are economic reports that state that money from illegal immigrants are in many countries of LA the first or second highest contribution to those nations' economies...
April 6th, 2006 at 12:05 pmWell, this just in from CNN, and as always, it seems we've been spinning our wheels with valid ideas and realistic solutions:
"Senate Republicans and Democrats say they are close to a compromise on legislation opening the way to legal status and eventual citizenship for many of the 11 million illegal immigrants in the United States illegally. "We've had a huge breakthrough" overnight, said Majority Leader Bill Frist. Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said he had been assured President Bush supports the measure."
April 6th, 2006 at 12:11 pmPost 108 > the United States allowing unlimited Mexican immigration, into our nation, is the only reason the corrupt Mexican government is able to survive in power! They treat their citizenry like parasites and force them to seek jobs in America! If Bush was really interested in stopping terrorism, then he would close the border, but he wants it wide open so his "War on Terror" is 100% baloney! At the rate of 2+ million illegals a year flooding into the US, our economy cannot obsorb them, so an economic collapse is imminent! Maybe Bush and Fox of Mexico want the economic system to collapse so all citizens become serfs or identured low wage slaves?
April 6th, 2006 at 12:22 pmYup. This is an enjoyable exercise. Also one that proves two people with differrent fundamental stances can have an intelligent conversation. From what I've seen You're somewhat more on the Liberal side of things than me as I take a pretty hard objectivist stance being a Libertarian.
One thing I didn't explain well was the "citizenship by birth" thought. I meant neither the children, nor the parents should be citizens. Being born of legal immigrants in this country should result in citizenship for the child, but not for illegal immigrants. That would solve that problem. Which to partially answer your question on how illegal immigrants get welfare, this is also a loophole for the child and that means helping the parent.
As for welfare in other forms for immigrants, I once bartended at a restaurant where many illegal immigrants worked. And to state for the record, these were hard working very upstanding people. From what I could tell, they actually did have some form of paperwork that the govt. recognized. It wasn't a social security number but it was something that certainly let the govt. know who they were and where they were. I imagine it's the same for welfare.
Anyone know more about this? I'm interested how it works too.
The point is the govt. knows who many illegal immigrants are and where they are working. This doesn't cover those paid in cash, off the books or day laborers, but it is a significant number. The problem, aside from the logistics, of rounding them up and exporting them is you would go after the part of this population that actually pay taxes! It is so messed up.
“Senate Republicans and Democrats say they are close to a compromise on legislation opening the way to legal status and eventual citizenship for many of the 11 million illegal immigrants in the United States illegally. “We’ve had a huge breakthroughâ€
Truly unbelievable, unbelievable. :-)
Our founding fathers are spinning in their graves. Your comment on them spinning wheels and accomplishing nothing was a pure view into the immediate future.
Oh, and on a side thought of America being a "country founded by immigrants". Can we change that to a "country founded by legal immigrants"? Because that's what actually happened.
Still don't agree with you on the population thing, but that's part of the fun. :-)
22 million (or more) people in Holland do a pretty good job with all that density. And that's not counting the illegal immigrants there! lol
Seriously though, nature has an amazing way of taking care of itself. There's a little bit of truth and a little bit of ego that each generation could be the last on Earth. But it's mostly ego. A species has gone extinct each day since the Earth began, but we're arrogant enough to think that our efforts to save some species actually make an impact.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but as with my much vilified comments on Global Warming, I don't think there's enough data to make a good case either way.
I’m enjoying our collaboration. Even if we know it’s strictly theoretical, and that what our Administration eventually does will be little more than band-aids on gangrene. As usual.
I'm enjoying it too. And this last statement is a fine bit of wisdom. The problem not only lies in those coming into this country illegally, but also in our lawmakers who seem to only think of the worst solution to every problem.
We'll certainly go through the process of making mistakes and if it was a logical group at the head of all this (Democrat and Republicans alike) they might learn from those mistakes. I'm not holding out much hope though.
April 6th, 2006 at 1:37 pmDoh! Italic tags didn't close. Sorry about that.
April 6th, 2006 at 2:00 pmbtw, unbelievable, what part of GA do you live in?
April 6th, 2006 at 2:09 pmI'm in Atlanta. It would be interesting to know if there are pockets of immigrants outside the Buford Hwy area.
Yup. This is an enjoyable exercise. Also one that proves two people with differrent fundamental stances can have an intelligent conversation. From what I’ve seen You’re somewhat more on the Liberal side of things than me as I take a pretty hard objectivist stance being a Libertarian.
Too bad we can get more people to catch on to the concept. We've become a country of people pitted against one another based on 'labels'. If I tell people that I'm a vegan, liberal, feminist Atheist, they immediate seem to think that I am some raging femi-nazi who hates men and has never met a razor - when the exact opposites are true. Maybe we should throw away the labels and just focus on ideas?
One thing I didn’t explain well was the “citizenship by birth†thought. I meant neither the children, nor the parents should be citizens. Being born of legal immigrants in this country should result in citizenship for the child, but not for illegal immigrants. That would solve that problem. Which to partially answer your question on how illegal immigrants get welfare, this is also a loophole for the child and that means helping the parent.
Oh, I see. Well, I would say that citizenship by birth is sort of a tradition. If you aren't a citizen where you are born, then where are you a citizen? Think it could get tricky.
As for welfare in other forms for immigrants, I once bartended at a restaurant where many illegal immigrants worked. And to state for the record, these were hard working very upstanding people. From what I could tell, they actually did have some form of paperwork that the govt. recognized.
Wonder what that is? My friends who are immigrants here are all legal. They more than anyone are angry, because they've gone through the obnoxious system and are frustrated that 11 million people will be rewarded for breaking the law. Can't blame them.
The problem, aside from the logistics, of rounding them up and exporting them is you would go after the part of this population that actually pay taxes! It is so messed up.
Of course... buracracy at it's most competent is still highly inept!
Our founding fathers are spinning in their graves. Your comment on them spinning wheels and accomplishing nothing was a pure view into the immediate future.
I'm sure they'd all be glad to be dead. Though, Jefferson warned of this very thing. I saw a quote where he said that he'd be surprised if the whole exercize in democracy didn't succumb to greed and fall of its own weight. He was a brilliant, brillliant man. Wish we could exhume his DNA, clone him, and run him for office again. Cause I think it's come to that or Revolution...
Oh, and on a side thought of America being a “country founded by immigrantsâ€. Can we change that to a “country founded by legal immigrantsâ€? Because that’s what actually happened.
Okay, another area to disagree upon :). I don't consider what we did to the Native Americans to be 'legal'. But, I'm curious, before going dow that road, how you see it as legal.
Still don’t agree with you on the population thing, but that’s part of the fun. :-)
22 million (or more) people in Holland do a pretty good job with all that density. And that’s not counting the illegal immigrants there! lol
I think it has a relationship with culture. Our culture isn't used to sharing. For many generations, we've had so much that we each had our ;own'. This isn't typical of most of the world where people are used to sharing, and so they do it well. We've become very comfortable with our own places and own cars and own whatever we wants. We're not culturally indoctrinated to share, and now, that is exactly what is being asked of us. To share our wealth with others. And we don't want to.
Seriously though, nature has an amazing way of taking care of itself. There’s a little bit of truth and a little bit of ego that each generation could be the last on Earth. But it’s mostly ego. A species has gone extinct each day since the Earth began, but we’re arrogant enough to think that our efforts to save some species actually make an impact.
I agree that nature seems to be able to work it out - again through trial and error :). But our attempts to intervene are just making a mess of everything. I keep thinking about the wolves in Idaho. How they wiped them out (cattle farmers), then passed legislation to re-introduce them, and then, had the guy who brought them back kill the remianing 5 to once again appease the cattle farmers. We do a terroble job of playing "God".
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but as with my much vilified comments on Global Warming, I don’t think there’s enough data to make a good case either way.
Why not? Well, I teach Science, if you want to steer the conversation there... :)
I’m enjoying it too. And this last statement is a fine bit of wisdom. The problem not only lies in those coming into this country illegally, but also in our lawmakers who seem to only think of the worst solution to every problem.
I think you're giving them too much credit :)
We’ll certainly go through the process of making mistakes and if it was a logical group at the head of all this (Democrat and Republicans alike) they might learn from those mistakes. I’m not holding out much hope though.
Comment by Thought — April 6, 2006 @ 1:37 pm
I agree. On both counts :)
April 6th, 2006 at 2:30 pmbtw, unbelievable, what part of GA do you live in?
I’m in Atlanta. It would be interesting to know if there are pockets of immigrants outside the Buford Hwy area.
Comment by Thought — April 6, 2006 @ 2:09 pm
I'm due east - in the suburbs - past Stone Mountain. It's still largely white, Christian and Republican out here. But I have lived in different areas of Atlanta in the past, and it's as you know, the opposite. When I was in San Francisco, people used to talk about diversity there. But, I was on MARTA last week, going downtown and I realised what a cultural melting pot Atlanta has really become. I think most of the diversity exists within the city and immediate environs. That joke about Atlanta and Georgia being completely different places is very true. Where are you from?
April 6th, 2006 at 2:36 pmOn the immigration compromise in the Senate, I don't see how it's much different. And two fundamental questions arise for me:
1) what is the incentive for someone in the country, say, for four and a half years, to come forward and admit as much, knowing they'll have to go back to their country, just to come right back here again? Why would anyone, in fact, come forward voluntarily under a plan that could mean deportation, fines, back taxes, etc? They're here now, why not just stay on with impunity?
2) why are we presuming that all 11 million or so illegal immigrants wants to become an American citizen? I know more than a few permanent residents who simply come here for school or to make money, and who may live here for years, or even decades, with no intention of gaining citizenship. Many simply want to work here, make the higher wages, and send the money home to the country they remain loyal to (to build a home, take care of family, etc.)
It's arguable that many of the illegal migrants in this country now want only the guest worker piece of the bill, not the citizenship. But the risks of coming forward are equal either way. And unless you add enforcement of the law that is directed at employers ... something I doubt the chamber of commerce-beholden Congress will allow ... you have no real means of making any of this stick.
We can't even enforce the laws we have on the books now. Passing a new amnesty ... sorry, "probation" ... bill isn't going to change that.
April 6th, 2006 at 3:51 pmThere are a lot of jobs right now. What are these people going to do when there is a recesion and there are fewer jobs. Maby I should ask what am I going to do when there is a slow down in jobs and the ones available are filled by people willing to work at a wage I can't survive on. I have been laid of before while illegals stayed on the job and worked at a lower rate.
April 6th, 2006 at 4:15 pmTheir countries govt. is jaded. Why don't they try to take it back. Overthrow any crooked govt. If they leave their country they should renounce it , not send monies there, if they want to be here they should pledge allegiance to this country, act like americans, give up being mexicans, be americans, learn english speak english, don't make a big secular thing that threatens to devide our coutry. One of the great things that binds this country and makes it work is one common language that everyone speaks. If you are running a business where you can't understand your employies conversation- that would be the the most destructive thing that is ruining our country.
April 6th, 2006 at 4:35 pmIn L.A. when you start school I hear it is in spanish
April 6th, 2006 at 4:38 pmI don't have the data for this but I have heard that 1 of 3 prisoners in federal prisons are illegal imigrants. Are there going to be new ways of keeping those same people from re-entering this country over and over with a huge expense to the taxpayer and a huge price society has to deal with (MOST METH IS FROM MEXICO, mexican gangs sprouting up all over the country, ID theft, , burglary, assalts, rapes, outbreaks of diseases that had ben previously eradicated ..........
April 6th, 2006 at 4:49 pmIf they get a break do I get one too? How about if I don't have to pay taxes for the next 5 years? seams fair enough in this level of mentallity the govt is into now...
April 6th, 2006 at 4:54 pmIn Portland Or. all the roofers are mexicans as well as most all of the landscapers.... An honest business can't compete against a business that pays under the table, no taxes... BAD FOR AMERICAN BUSINESS
April 6th, 2006 at 5:00 pmWe definately need better border security, regardless, if you believe, we need to stop the on-wave of illegals, or drug dealers or terrorists. This should be our first and foremost objective. Once, we've managed to secure and control our borders, we can then focus on the problems of illegal immigration. Hopefully, securing the borders will slow down the flow of illegals into this country. With less difficulty, in dealing with border problems, the issues of illegals currently, in this country, can be worked on. If the figures, I've seen on deportation of illegals, is correct, then the country couldn't deport everyone. A compromise will then have to be worked out. As an alternative, I favor allowing anyone who been here illegally, for 20 yrs, be allowed to stay, but only if they have employment, no criminal past, speak English, and are not on any welfare whatsoever. I am not for citizenship, as they still broke the law, but I do feel, they should be allowed to stay legally. Anyone here for 10-19 years, the same rules apply, (employment, no criminal history, speak English, no welfare, and no citizenship), and they are fined so much for each year, they are here illegally, but are allowed to stay. Anyone under 10 years, deport. It may not be perfect, but it does allow illegals who have made a difference to this country and themselves, to benefit, but also be punished by not allowing citizenship and/or fines. I do not believe allowing citizenship to anyone who came into this country illegally, deserve citizenship. Hopefully, it would deter many from coming into the country, if they thought, they would loose more than they would gain. Chidren born of illegals could also be denied citizenship, which again would be a deterent.
April 6th, 2006 at 7:28 pmCompanies who hire illegals, are where the real reform needs to take place. This is where the Law really needs to get tough. Plus, we need to take a hard line with Mexico and stop pussyfooting around.
And Joe #51, really said it best. Good thoughts Joe
Oh, yes, Bush was born in Connecticut and Daddy was born in Mass.
April 6th, 2006 at 7:31 pmAlan,
As an economics professor at Princeton, do you consider statistics or basic math in your research. I am a businessman , and I would suggest you read this article that is a grounded look at the issue.I am old school, if you are creating more poverty via importing cheap labor, which does not pay for itself vs. social service cost, and are lowering American workers wages, this will not be corrected with volume.I sure hope you not teaching future Businessman and economist , the Enron math that you can make up a losing business plan with more losing transactions.
Nuking the Economy
By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS
Last week the Bureau of Labor Statistics re-benchmarked the payroll jobs data back to 2000. Thanks to Charles McMillion of MBG Information Services, I have the adjusted data from January 2001 through January 2006. If you are worried about terrorists, you don't know what worry is.
Job growth over the last five years is the weakest on record. The US economy came up more than 7 million jobs short of keeping up with population growth. That's one good reason for controlling immigration. An economy that cannot keep up with population growth should not be boosting population with heavy rates of legal and illegal immigration.
Over the past five years the US economy experienced a net job loss in goods producing activities. The entire job growth was in service-providing activities--primarily credit intermediation, health care and social assistance, waiters, waitresses and bartenders, and state and local government.
US manufacturing lost 2.9 million jobs, almost 17% of the manufacturing work force. The wipeout is across the board. Not a single manufacturing payroll classification created a single new job.
The declines in some manufacturing sectors have more in common with a country undergoing saturation bombing during war than with a super-economy that is "the envy of the world." Communications equipment lost 43% of its workforce. Semiconductors and electronic components lost 37% of its workforce. The workforce in computers and electronic products declined 30%. Electrical equipment and appliances lost 25% of its employees. The workforce in motor vehicles and parts declined 12%. Furniture and related products lost 17% of its jobs. Apparel manufacturers lost almost half of the work force. Employment in textile mills declined 43%. Paper and paper products lost one-fifth of its jobs. The work force in plastics and rubber products declined by 15%. Even manufacturers of beverages and tobacco products experienced a 7% shrinkage in jobs.
The knowledge jobs that were supposed to take the place of lost manufacturing jobs in the globalized "new economy" never appeared. The information sector lost 17% of its jobs, with the telecommunications work force declining by 25%. Even wholesale and retail trade lost jobs. Despite massive new accounting burdens imposed by Sarbanes-Oxley, accounting and bookkeeping employment shrank by 4%. Computer systems design and related lost 9% of its jobs. Today there are 209,000 fewer managerial and supervisory jobs than 5 years ago.
In five years the US economy only created 70,000 jobs in architecture and engineering, many of which are clerical. Little wonder engineering enrollments are shrinking. There are no jobs for graduates. The talk about engineering shortages is absolute ignorance. There are several hundred thousand American engineers who are unemployed and have been for years. No student wants a degree that is nothing but a ticket to a soup line. Many engineers have written to me that they cannot even get Wal-Mart jobs because their education makes them over-qualified.
Offshore outsourcing and offshore production have left the US awash with unemployment among the highly educated. The low measured rate of unemployment does not include discouraged workers. Labor arbitrage has made the unemployment rate less and less a meaningful indicator. In the past unemployment resulted mainly from turnover in the labor force and recession. Recoveries pulled people back into jobs.
Unemployment benefits were intended to help people over the down time in the cycle when workers were laid off. Today the unemployment is permanent as entire occupations and industries are wiped out by labor arbitrage as corporations replace their American employees with foreign ones.
Economists who look beyond political press releases estimate the US unemployment rate to be between 7% and 8.5%. There are now hundreds of thousands of Americans who will never recover their investment in their university education.
Unless the BLS is falsifying the data or businesses are reporting the opposite of the facts, the US is experiencing a job depression. Most economists refuse to acknowledge the facts, because they endorsed globalization. It was a win-win situation, they said.
They were wrong.
At a time when America desperately needs the voices of educated people as a counterweight to the disinformation that emanates from the Bush administration and its supporters, economists have discredited themselves. This is especially true for "free market economists" who foolishly assumed that international labor arbitrage was an example of free trade that was benefitting Americans. Where is the benefit when employment in US export industries and import-competitive industries is shrinking? After decades of struggle to regain credibility, free market economics is on the verge of another wipeout.
No sane economist can possibly maintain that a deplorable record of merely 1,054,000 net new private sector jobs over five years is an indication of a healthy economy. The total number of private sector jobs created over the five year period is 500,000 jobs less than one year's legal and illegal immigration! (In a December 2005 Center for Immigration Studies report based on the Census Bureau's March 2005 Current Population Survey, Steven Camarota writes that there were 7,9 million new immigrants between January 2000 and March 2005.)
The economics profession has failed America. It touts a meaningless number while joblessness soars. Lazy journalists at the New York Times simply rewrite the Bush administration's press releases.
On February 10 the Commerce Department released a record US trade deficit in goods and services for 2005--$726 billion. The US deficit in Advanced Technology Products reached a new high. Offshore production for home markets and jobs outsourcing has made the US highly dependent on foreign provided goods and services, while simultaneously reducing the export capability of the US economy. It is possible that there might be no exchange rate at which the US can balance its trade.
Polls indicate that the Bush administration is succeeding in whipping up fear and hysteria about Iran. The secretary of defense is promising Americans decades-long war. Is death in battle Bush's solution to the job depression? Will Asians finance a decades-long war for a bankrupt country?
Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review. He is coauthor of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.He can be reached at: paulcraigroberts@yahoo.com
April 6th, 2006 at 8:25 pm"The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God" (Leviticus 19:34).
April 6th, 2006 at 8:44 pmPhil,
Are you saying Jesus supports slave labor and sweatshops ?
April 6th, 2006 at 9:29 pmI thought we elected our leaders to protect the American workers.
Nothing like being stabbed in the back with a white glove.
April 6th, 2006 at 9:52 pmI thought we elected our leaders to protect the American workers.
April 6th, 2006 at 9:55 pmNothing like being stabbed in the back with a white glove.
#125
Thanks for that post John- I copied and saved it.
April 6th, 2006 at 10:08 pmNever, ever, listen to some rich POS tell the lower class that illegal invaders are good for their society.
It is utter bullshit. The illegals "MAY" be paid to clean but the neighborhoods in which they ran out the middle classes look like skanky mexican border towns. Rich people don't have to live near this garbage. I'mn sick of going into stores where no one speaks english...for crying out loud this is america not the third world! Line em up and take em out now!
April 6th, 2006 at 10:29 pmBTW it is a lot worse in Texas what post #1 describes. I'm sick of the double standard, that illegals can get away with murder in the USA, bring their stupid gangs here, ruin our cities with little mexico slums and and all the breeding...and on and on and on. I can't think of one benefit illegals bring us...not one! The only people who benefit are rich folks but they don't have to live with these low life illegals.
And I could care less if I'm pegged a bigot. If I wanted to live in a stupid mexican culture, I'd move to mexico. Illegals are totally screwing up the racial balance of the nation and there isn't a single latin american nation that I would see as a model for a future of america so we gotta fix this fast. A latin north america is screwed.
April 6th, 2006 at 10:44 pmThe truth is we were told that passing NAFTA style trade deals would decrease illegal immigration by both parties. The real issue is we are now in completion with overseas slave labor in countries like China, Mexico, etc. The way American business competes is hiring illegal immigrants, legal immigrants willing to work much cheaper and outsourcing to foreign countries via cheap labor. The combination has created declining real wages while healthcare, childcare, college costs, and energy prices are out of control.
The solution is to renegotiate are trade deals to equalize labor and environmental standards, while at the same time enforcing our current immigration laws. Also we need to secure our borders.
Ross Perot on Immigration
NAFTA will encourage illegal immigration
[It is a myth that] NAFTA will reduce illegal immigration. As manufacturing in northern Mexico expands, hundreds of thousands of Mexican workers will be drawn north. They will quickly find that wages in the Mexican maquiladora plants cannot compete with wages anywhere in the US. Out of economic necessity, many of these mobile workers will consider illegally immigrating into the US. In short, NAFTA has the potential to increase illegal immigration, not decrease it.
Source: Save Your Job, Save Our Country, by Ross Perot, p. 72 Jan 1, 1993
NAFTA lets Mexican professionals work in the US legally
Today, foreign professional workers can enter the US labor market, but only “temporarily†& only if an employer gets a certification that a qualified US worker cannot be found. Also, the existing US immigration laws place a numerical limit on the number of temporary workers. Put another way, American workers have priority for American jobs.
NAFA radically alters this entire concept. Under NAFTA, Mexican and Canadian workers in 63 designated categories may be hired in the US, even if qualified American workers are available.
Under NAFTA, Mexican and Canadian entrepreneurs will be able to provide US drug stores with pharmacists, hotels with managers, and so on. As a result, hundreds of thousands of professional American workers are going to be put under intense pressure to cut their wages and benefits. [Lower-skilled workers] are going to lose their jobs to low-paid foreign contract workers. While no one was watching, US NAFTA negotiators radically revised the nation’s immigration laws.
Source: Save Your Job, Save Our Country, p. 90-2 Jan 1, 1993
April 7th, 2006 at 9:08 amcompetition not completion sorry
April 7th, 2006 at 9:50 amAlan G kruegar,
I challenge Professor Krueger to a debate to defend his study. The intellectually dishonesty used in putting his research together is why most of us no longer trust political pundit information that both parties use. Professor Krueger knows in the most basic research discipline is you can not plug and play with your variables to make your conclusions work. I give Paul Krugman and Paul Craig Roberts credit for putting their political differences aside and using their economic knowledge to come to the truth. You cannot fix a problem if you lie to yourself.
Columnist Paul Krugman Breaks Ranks With Liberals On Immigration
NORTH OF THE BORDER
March 27, 2006
By Paul Krugman, New York Times
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free," wrote Emma Lazarus, in a poem that still puts a lump in my throat. I'm proud of America's immigrant history, and grateful that the door was open when my grandparents fled Russia.
In other words, I'm instinctively, emotionally pro-immigration. But a review of serious, nonpartisan research reveals some uncomfortable facts about the economics of modern immigration, and immigration from Mexico in particular. If people like me are going to respond effectively to anti-immigrant demagogues, we have to acknowledge those facts.
First, the net benefits to the U.S. economy from immigration, aside from the large gains to the immigrants themselves, are small. Realistic estimates suggest that immigration since 1980 has raised the total income of native-born Americans by no more than a fraction of 1 percent.
Second, while immigration may have raised overall income slightly, many of the worst-off native-born Americans are hurt by immigration — especially immigration from Mexico. Because Mexican immigrants have much less education ... they increase the supply of less-skilled labor, driving down the wages of the worst-paid Americans. The most authoritative recent study ... by George Borjas and Lawrence Katz of Harvard, estimates that U.S. high school dropouts would earn as much as 8 percent more if it weren't for Mexican immigration.
That's why it's intellectually dishonest to say, as President Bush does, that immigrants do "jobs that Americans will not do." The willingness of Americans to do a job depends on how much that job pays — and the reason some jobs pay too little to attract native-born Americans is competition from poorly paid immigrants. Finally, ... our social safety net has more holes in it than it should — and low-skill immigrants threaten to unravel that safety net. ... Unfortunately, low-skill immigrants don't pay enough taxes to cover the cost of the benefits they receive. ...
We shouldn't exaggerate these problems. Mexican immigration, says the Borjas-Katz study, has played only a "modest role" in growing U.S. inequality. And ... the disastrous Medicare drug bill alone does far more to undermine ... our social insurance system than the whole burden of ...illegal immigrants. But modest problems are still real problems, and immigration is becoming a major political issue. What are we going to do bout it?
Realistically, we'll need to reduce the inflow of low-skill immigrants. ...But the harsh anti-immigration legislation passed by the House...legislation that would, among other things, make it a criminal act to provide an illegal immigrant with medical care — is simply immoral.
Meanwhile, Mr. Bush's plan for a "guest worker" program is clearly designed by and for corporate interests, who'd love to have a low-wage work force that couldn't vote. Not only is it deeply un-American; it does nothing to reduce the adverse effect of immigration on wages. And because guest workers would face the prospect of deportation after a few years, they would have no incentive to become integrated into our society.
What about a guest-worker program that includes a clearer route to citizenship? I'd still be careful. ... it could all too easily ... create a permanent underclass of disenfranchised workers. We need to do something about immigration, and soon. But I'd rather see Congress fail to agree on anything this year than have it rush into ill-considered legislation that betrays our moral and democratic principles.
April 7th, 2006 at 10:23 am#134 Don't worry too much about typos John- we all make them.
Again, thanks for your posts. Another good one. (Although I'm not a big fan of Perot- I have friends that worked for his company in the 80's...nazi-like company policies)
BTW- Perot wasn't alone in his warnings. Union leaders had much a more accurate vision of things to come when NAFTA was passed. (Let alone others that followed- CAFTA, etc.) We're living them now.
Unions have been horribly demonized- Most people believe that it’s unions that forced companies to move overseas. Not at all true. Propaganda against them has been very effective. People forget that it’s unions that made the “middle-classâ€. Like them or not- they are a necessary part of the economic “checks and balances†system. Evidence of this can be found in executive compensation vs “worker†pay.
Although not a union member myself, I come from a strong union family and hire union labor in my business. (I started out “non-union†in my mechanical contracting business.) When my shop was “organized†(at my encouraging)- I quickly found out the benefits of a strong apprenticeship program. The superior skills of the people hired through the respective union halls allowed me to bid on jobs that otherwise would have been out of reach. They made the business much more money than would have otherwise been possible. My business is suffering horribly- but it has nothing to do with its union affiliation. We don’t “do†houses. We do industrial work-which has become all but non-existent here in the mid-west “rust beltâ€.
I certainly cannot speak for all union structures- But I will say that the Building Trades unions are good and just organizations.
April 7th, 2006 at 10:41 amWhite collar jobs went offshore too. Engineers and computer programmers jobs.
Took the computer programemr year to find another job and half the wages when he
did.
Those 48 US welfare jobs in India taking US social and case workers jobs.
And on this Dell computer all from India.
McCain is wrong after NAFTA, outsourcing and CAFTA which on TV said l7 million
service jobs going offshore because of CAFTA. Americans will take two or three
of those jobs to survive. McCain/Kennedy joined up agaisnt us with citizenship
for illegal aliens so join up with the Republicans against them. They are as
angry as you. I wish Perot would have won and wouldn't be in this big mess.
And not only did clinton/gore start it all with NAFTA they put in one way
trade with Communist China with their slave prison who export, Christmas
trees and toys to US, gulags is that what they are called, slave wages of $1
a day, skin alive cats, dogs, rabbits and other animals and a lot of other
horrible things in northern China for their fur. Korea eat cat and dogs.
With Hillary's legal background cannot claim ignorance. This is another
violation to the Americans by clintongore/bush/chaney who all planned together
and probably planned in some back room.
f
April 7th, 2006 at 12:43 pmWell that one didn't go over so good but don't care how I write it I am telling the
truth the 100% truth and too angry too even care. Not on here for my ego but
fro survival when comes to jobs, SS and pensions.
If citizenship for illegal aliens passes US companies lower wages and American
will have to quit: then US companies say Americans don't want the job and hire
illegal aliens for low or lower wage; instead of US companies paying a $l a day or $l an hour in Mexico or China be paying that to Americans right here; and with those low wages be no SS or pensions.
There are two men we need and they both come from different parties. But
voting for the man and his ideas are better than voting a long party lines
And a very good example is clinton/gore/bush/chaney who destroyed Americans
and America.
That is Edwards who is agaisnt NAFTA coming from the texite mills where his
father and he worked putting himself thorugh college. And hopefully stop
th jobs from going offshore. And the other iis Republican Hayworth of
Arizona who wants to secure the borders and is for the people and takes
no crap. Edwards did tell Kerry not to concede. And he is a successful trial
lawyer for children so he could stick up for us too.
Get together with the Republicans for power in numbers and believe me they are
just as angry as you if not more.
Time to make a law that our children are not the policemen of the world and
no more wars like Korea, Viet Nam, Gulf and Iraq. Also to make a law that
presidents cannot take Americans jobs offshore or have illegal aliens take
American jobs here. If they had their way all the companies here hire illegal aliens
and all would be in China for a $1 a day. But how do they expect us to buy
from them when all our jobs are outsourced and illegal aliens taking our
jobs here. How do they expect us to buy from them when we have no jobs
or low pay jobs.
Fight a long with the Republicans against those two paddies who went against us.
4th generation democrat no longer.
April 7th, 2006 at 1:11 pmGo on Raw Story under Migrant Workers & read Nicole who right now is last coment
April 7th, 2006 at 10:33 pmon there. Really good-- the best.
Forgot to say Nicole is number 27 on Raw Story under Migrant Workers. She is
April 7th, 2006 at 11:22 pmwonderful better than even Smudge boy.
The mexicans sure made a mess in LA. The police don't even go in some parts of it now. How would you like to have your child be recruited to a gang or be beaten up as soon as they start first grade? Do you want your kid to go to a school that only speaks Spanish? There should be a law....
April 9th, 2006 at 6:28 pmUnbelievable,
I'm in Alpharetta. More of a melting pot in that area than one would think. It goes to show that Immigrants can be successful AND legal! :-)
April 10th, 2006 at 1:41 pmYes Imigrants can be legal! They need to fill out the paperwork, get their imunizations and wait in line for the ok to come into the country. Otherwise they are breaking the law and are NOT LEGAL. I have known people that were in this country and had to leave because their visa was no longer good. They did not sneak back into the country illegally....
April 16th, 2006 at 3:45 pmMany of the trades here used to pay a living wage, now with all the mexicans you can't survive doing the same job you did 20 yrs ago. imigration does hurt jobs
April 16th, 2006 at 3:49 pm"If US corporations in Mexico paid a living wage instead of running Maquiladoras Mexicans would not feel the need to come here." Jaded Prole
That was one of the few sensible comments I read on here. All this selfish, irrational zealotry is frightning. Perhaps you should consider the debilitating economic effect that the US has had on LA. The majority of immigrants have left their beloved homes & villiges b/c they have been forced into such miserable poverty due to the neoliberal policies imposed by our government, that they cannot survive in their homelands. They are forced to move or they will die. It's as simple as that.
I see no consideration for the neoliberalism that has ravaged the economies of most third world countries; or how so-called “free†trade deals like NAFTA, and huge North American food subsidies have created “dumping†of cheap food, which has forced many farmers to lose their land and move to overcrowded cities where the only work available to them is in maquiladoras at slave wages.
I have seen no discussion about the privatization of natural resources in Central and Latin America, where alleged “sovereign†governments understand that they cooperate and allow companies like Coca-Cola to take over the water supply, or face being erased, killed, murdered. A mere inkling that the people may rise-up and resist is cause for retaliation by military death squads which have been trained in the USA at the School of the Americas; trained in suppression and torture techniques to make sure that there will be no uprising?"
Let us not forget that our tax money is paying this, which makes all of us just a little bit responsible.
April 24th, 2006 at 11:34 amSomething like my home country (Thailand - GMT+7). There are also many of Illigal-imm. From nearby country who try to find a job, send money home and looking for a chance to be our citizen. If only one succeed their dream they will take all of family (All clan if posible) to stay with them.
The prob is not comming to live in my country but it is a sense.
Sense of loyalty. They are not love my country as mush as we do. They are a like a lice who come to take our blood 'till dry/die. and leave to find anothr victim(s)
Send them home is the best choice but which way that the prob. They may join your enemy or some profit maker to damage your country.
May 2nd, 2006 at 6:27 amIf they are really importants work forces. If some of them become one in your family. You will have difficult time to cut your bloods and kick them out.
EvnThght, the word "Innocense is the first victim" is true. but we'll pray for that innocense is not one of our family member. (Yo, Bush may not have ill-imm. latino blood in his clan or even he has but by his power he can cover it up before this thing happen.THEN This is not Bush's prob, It is citizen's prob.)
Why don't we buy Mexico to make one of USA's state. This thing will solve all current probs.
May 3rd, 2006 at 3:52 amI know someone, in ilegal situation living there. If are you interested, please, answer me and then I will give you all the address.
December 4th, 2006 at 10:02 pmI'm looking foward your answer.
Thank you, god bless America.
It does not seem to me that the question is whether or not American's have sympathy, empathy, or anything else for illegal immigrants. The issuse is very simple; to pose the question, is it right, or is it wrong.
Obviously it is wrong. People ask, "What difference does it make to me if someone out in California is picking tomato's and they are legal or not?" Picking tomato's, the pay the worker is receiving, what he does with his money, is not the issue. The issue is; Did The Tomato Picker Enter This Country In Violation Of Our Laws?" Why is that so difficult to understand.
If a person in Pennsylvania robs a bank of $20,000.00, or someone hijacks a 7-11 in Tennessee, and gets away with $75.00; should that make any difference to the person in California... or even others in the state in which the deed was committed? The thing IS.... A Law Was Broken. When people enter this country with no regard to our LAWS, they are Criminals. Criminals are people who Violate The Laws.
A person who committs such an act might well be the nicest person one could ever meet. He/She might have nothing in mind but to Give Their Families a Better Life. A Bank Robber could give his family a better life if he could just take the money when he 'needed' more. It is against the Law.
The people who built this country went through the legal process of becoming a citizen. They worked hard. They learned the language of the land. They did not get unemployment, free medical services, food stamps, or anything else. It was up to THEM to earn the money they needed with which to survive. They wanted to become Americans. They were Proud to be granted American Citizenship. This country was Proud to Grant them that citizenship. They EARNED it. They respected our laws and did things the way they were expected to.
If a person is in this country illegally, they are a Criminal. How can anyone possibly not see that.
February 7th, 2007 at 1:29 amcadillac san antonio
In Europe, much the same would happen. Brazil's ethanol program provides about 20% of the nations automotive fuel needs, including
April 1st, 2008 at 12:30 am