Salon reports new evidence that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was intimately involved in prisoner abuse at the Guantanamo Bay detention center.
According to a Dec. 20, 2005 Army inspector general’s report on Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, the former commanding general in charge of Gitmo, Rumsfeld approved an interrogation plan for Mohammed al-Kahtani, the alleged 20th hijacker:
In a sworn statement to the inspector general, [Lt. Gen. Randall] Schmidt described Rumsfeld as “personally involved” in the interrogation and said that the defense secretary was “talking weekly” with Miller.
Rumsfeld developed an interrogation plan that required the Gitmo detainee to “stand naked in front of a female interrogator, was accused of being a homosexual, and was forced to wear women’s underwear and to perform ‘dog tricks’ on a leash.†Schmidt said that the open-ended policies Rumsfeld approved, and that the apparent lack of supervision of day-to-day interrogations permitted the wide-scale abuse to take place.
The report contradicts Rumsfeld’s earlier statements.
The people down there at Guantanamo Bay, under the President’s orders, have been treated humanely and they should be treated humanely…There’s no torture going on down there and there hasn’t been. [WPHT-AM Philadelphia, 6/21/05]
And let there be no doubt, the treatment of the detainees in Guantanamo Bay is proper, it’s humane, it’s appropriate, and it is fully consistent with international conventions. No detainee has been harmed, no detainee has been mistreated in any way. [DoD Briefing, 1/22/02]
Only relatively low-ranking military officials have been punished but the abuse of detainees at Guantanamo and elsewhere started at the top.
– Ben Kabak
But Bush has said repeatedly, “We don’t torture.” Oops, I forget Bush is a repeated, demonstrable liar.
Nice to see the “Christian Right” is OK with torturing. Someone famous once said, “whatever you do to the least of my brothers, you do unto me.” Not sure who that was, the conservatives have obviously forgotten His teachings.
April 14th, 2006 at 2:53 pmI would mostly like to see the ones at the top actually take it in the shorts, instead of skipping out on everything. If we can start with Rummy, maybe we can get the rest.
April 14th, 2006 at 2:55 pmAnd Scotty McClielan will call the release of this information “reckless” and “irresponsible” in 3 … 2 … 1 …
April 14th, 2006 at 2:56 pmRummy and company part of the axes of evil, brought to you daily by lieing Scotty……Blessings
April 14th, 2006 at 3:01 pmThe General is quoting Rummy in a manner that suggests a personal nature to the exchanges. Rather than using gereralizations to describe the demeanor, he sights some fairly off-the-cuff-style remarks that, quite frankly, Rummy is famous for. That gives this account a solid note of credibility.
I honestly think Rummy is out of his cotton-pickin’ mind.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:02 pmWow, our nation has sunk to a level that is unrecognizable anymore. Thanks Bush, Rove, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Condi.
You blew it up. Goddamn you all to hell, you blew it up.
Boy talk about a prediction in Planet of the Apes….If only it was Planet of the Chimps it would have been spot on.
-GSD
April 14th, 2006 at 3:03 pm“Heck of a job Rummy.” Is that being said too much today?
April 14th, 2006 at 3:05 pmGSD,
April 14th, 2006 at 3:08 pmMaybe this is the start of the Planet of the Chimpys. Bush will start WWIII and be the sole reproductive male because he was in the presidential bomb shelter. He will repopulate the earth with Chimpys like him and they will regressively devolve into the Planet of the Apes.
WE SHOULD DO WHATEVER IT TAKES. IF WE TREAT THE TERRORIST LIKE BABIES, WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT US ? THAT WERE SOFT , WIMPY BLEEDING HEART LIBERALS WITH NO BALLS.
ON THE OTHER HAND, PSYCHOLOGICAL DISCOMFORT DISHED OUT TO EVERY TERRORIST AT GITMO SHOWS THE WORLD WERE HARDCORE. IF I HAD MY WAY WE’D TREAT THEM WORSE !
WE NEED TO INSTILL FEAR IN THE TERRORISTS ALL OVER THE WORLD. THEY SHOUT ALLAH THIS AND ALLAH THAT, BUT WHEN THEY GET CAUGHT, THEY KNOW AMERICAN PRISONS ARE WORSE THAN THE NAZIS. THEY SHIT THEIR PANTS AND TELL US EVERYTHING THEY KNOW. ITS A PROVEN FACT. TORTURE WORKS.
GITMO SHOULDNT BE A FIVE STAR HOTEL. PULL YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR BUTTS AND REALIZE TORTURE IS NECESSARY FORY THE SECURITY OF AMERICA.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:09 pmTHEY SHOUT ALLAH THIS AND ALLAH THAT, BUT WHEN THEY GET CAUGHT, THEY KNOW AMERICAN PRISONS ARE WORSE THAN THE NAZIS. THEY SHIT THEIR PANTS AND TELL US EVERYTHING THEY KNOW. ITS A PROVEN FACT. TORTURE WORKS. - - I would think if the detainees at Gitmo read some of your scribblings, Chucklehead, that’d be torture enough. I know it works on me.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:14 pmI don’t know if “stand[ing] naked in front of a female interrogator, accused of being a homosexual, and … forced to wear women’s underwear and to perform ‘dog tricks’ on a leash†constitute torture, but it:
1. Is as ineffective as electrocuting a man’s testicles
2. Cheapens the U.S.’s military uniform and honorable service members
3. Demonstrates Rumsfeld has been watching good-cop/bad-guy Hollywood genre films too closely and he has no grasp of effective and torture-free interrogation methods
Bush backed him as off this morning. We can always pray for a hijacking on Rumsfeld’s next flight.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:17 pmohh no, a troll trap\ /…falling for it:
Anvil’s have no brains,
Terrorists = UNcivilized, spread fear
Americans = civilized, spread humanity (idealisticly)
terrorists =/= Americans
April 14th, 2006 at 3:17 pmDon’t show your hate for America by comparing us to terrorists…just because they do it is more of a reason for us not to do it back…why are you sticking up for Rummy when he won’t even man up to what he is doing…if he shares yoru views, why isn’t he gloating like your stupid ass, why are you supporting a liar?
Anvilhead that’s brilliant!!! Just by typing in all caps your incoherent ramblings are suddenly transformed into known fact. MAYBE IF I TYPE IN ALL CAPS AND BOLD I CAN SHOW HOW COMPLETELY WRONG YOU ARE.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:19 pm9,
April 14th, 2006 at 3:19 pmwhen you get thrown into gitmo you keep repeating those words. You wanna know what creates terrorists? Illegal wars in Arab nations. If you think that we have quelled terrorism by going to Iraq, then you are the one with his head up their butt. If you’ve happened to notice, countries that don’t regularly support torture don’t tend to have terrorism at the seemingly frequency that America or Britain does. Do you see the correlation? Terrorists aren’t afraid of you or I, now that their their brothers and friends are being tortured, they hate America even more. And honestly, who could blame them?
WHEN THEY GET CAUGHT, THEY KNOW AMERICAN PRISONS ARE WORSE THAN THE NAZIS
If only Bush had run on this platform in 2004, instead of his “We don’t torture” platform. It would have helped the dems a lot.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:20 pmComment by anvilhead — April 14, 2006 @ 3:09 pm
14 year old Bill O’Reilly wannabe.
-GSD
April 14th, 2006 at 3:21 pmAfter the notorious Blackhawk Down episode in Somalia, Republican Senator Alphonse D’Amato led the call for Defense Secretary Les Aspin’s resignation:
New Gingrich called for hearings to determine if field commanders were given “the support they need.”
Where’s the Republican outrage now? For the full story, see:
April 14th, 2006 at 3:23 pm“Rumsfeld Fails the Aspin Test.”
forgot to add this last time
9,
April 14th, 2006 at 3:23 pmcomparing US prisons to Nazi concentration camps; not exactly honorable and or “patriotic”, to borrow one of you neo-con’s favorite words. If you may remember correctly, the US condemned the Holocaust.
Oh for Henny Penny’s sake, can we start torturing that whinning idiot right this moment?
April 14th, 2006 at 3:23 pmLesly,
If someone felt anguish about the act, it would in fact be torture if they were forced to engage in it.
This is why the geneva convention is very careful about not only what people do to ‘mistreat’, but what prisoners should expect in terms of their ‘normal’ treatment. And this scenario is NOT proper treatment of prisoners, and is a violation of the Geneva Conventions on torture.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:24 pmAvenging Angel, I went to your link and tried to click on the Miami Herald link to Rumsfeld’s comments to the troops, and the Miami Herald site said “requested article not found.” Hmmm….what could have happened to it?
April 14th, 2006 at 3:29 pmHe doesn’t just need to leave. He needs to be indicted for war crimes. The details of what this man and his friends have been doing now emerges as a set of important facts that need to see the full light of day.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:34 pmWhat’s with all that sexual stuff? Are Rumsfeld and the other mindless and soulless automatons under his command really turned on by the sight of naked men shitting themselves and simulating masturbation and rough prison sex? If hardcore Christianity makes these perverts deny their innermost dark desires within their black hearts, then I guess it affirms that the more “straight” and religious the man is on the outside, the more twisted and sick he is on the inside. Rumsfeld should just come out and be the strict Daddy he wants to be. All he needs is a black leather Nazi uniform and a crop.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:42 pmNot surprised.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:43 pmRyan Neat wrote:
I don’t and never have disputed that we should abide by Geneva rules, nor am I trying a slippery slope with my next example. I never doubted Korans were “flushed” down “toilets” at Gitmo. I’m sure prisoners felt anguish about that, but Geneva doesn’t cover the Koran. This is a legitimate psychological tool.
This act was no doubt mistreatment, I’m just not sure it was torture.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:45 pmI am in total agreement that Mr. Rumsfeld should not be SOD, let alone in government at all.
However, am I the only one who finds the level of discourse somewhat odd? Not to mention the amount of mutinies by current and former staff as well as party affiliates. Granted the subject matter is serious and deserves attention, but at the full expense of the NSA/Wiretapping, Iraq quagmire, Iran war buildup, Abramoff, and PRESIDENT’S disclosure of “patriarchic” de-classified and edited national security information?
I can virtually guarantee you that none of these stories will be addressed with any substance this weekend but there will be non-stop analysis and blathering about traitorous generals and incompetent (and criminal?) secretaries of defense. I hope that I’m wrong and that the news and news magazine shows will provide balanced coverage of all these stories as well as the obvious lead story regarding mr. rumsfeld.
What is most disturbing is that due to the actions of the current administration, and coincidentally by mr. rumsfeld himself, we have to analyze news stories with much greater scrutiny so as to avoid propaganda or other “government sanctioned” news videos.
Goodbye and good riddance mr. rumsfeld but now back to the more pressing issues.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:47 pm“I never doubted Korans were “flushed†down “toilets†at Gitmo. I’m sure prisoners felt anguish about that, but Geneva doesn’t cover the Koran. This is a legitimate psychological tool.
This act was no doubt mistreatment, I’m just not sure it was torture.
Comment by Lesly ”
As I already corrected you, but the ENGLISH definition of the word torture it IS torture, because it’s known to create anquish in those who honor it.
Also, you’re wrong about the Geneva Convention
By the geneva convention this is a violation because it is in fact cruel treatment (or a psychological TOOL of mistreatment).
Sorry, but you’re VERY wrong on this issue.
I’d be happy to refer you to the geneva convention if you’d like to brush up. It sounds like you don’t understand what it’s requirements and restrictions are.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:51 pmI wonder if rumsfield go the idea of using dog tricks from being the presidents lap dog
April 14th, 2006 at 3:52 pm… “stand naked in front of a female interrogator, was accused of being a homosexual, and was forced to wear women’s underwear and to perform ‘dog tricks’ on a leash.†- - Sounds like a John Waters film to me.
April 14th, 2006 at 3:53 pmAnd the “family values” party vociferously condemns Rumsfeld for approving this, right? Just as they did when the first photos were revealed.
April 14th, 2006 at 4:01 pmJesus Christ: What would he say, what would he do?
Those who believe “God shed his grace” only on America should be hanging their heads in shame. I know I am embarrassed and ashamed of my country’s leaders.
Lesly- imagine the people holding you hostage took what you valued most in the world, even above yourself and desecrated it? I have thankfully never been in that position, but I believe it would cause great psychological anguish.
April 14th, 2006 at 4:02 pmRyan Neat:
By the Geneva convention this is a violation because it is in fact cruel treatment (or a psychological TOOL of mistreatment).
April 14th, 2006 at 4:03 pmBack to the Koran flushing example, where does Geneva say a “psychological tool” or method of interrogation is prohibited? You did notice that section a) says “cruel treatment and torture;” You’ll have to come up with something more if you want to claim dressing up a guy in a pink tu-tu and then being accused of being a homosexual is not only cruel treatment, but torture as well.
Rumsfeld deserves to be turned over to The Hague as a war criminal by the next Democratic President.
April 14th, 2006 at 4:03 pmJules, I think I’d be grateful they’re taking it out on a book instead of raping me, or threatening me with rape. Disorientation, being cut off from the outside world cause psychological anguish as well. I’m not about to write them off too.
April 14th, 2006 at 4:07 pmRyan I know you can handle your own but Lesly what part of
c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;
are you not understanding?
April 14th, 2006 at 4:08 pmI forgot to add the caveat that for my part, this conversation has nothing to do with the fact that most Muslims in Gitmo shouldn’t even be there for detainment and interrogation.
April 14th, 2006 at 4:08 pmSo Lesly because you find a particular brand of torture more horrid than the next the lesser form to you would be alright?
April 14th, 2006 at 4:10 pmI’m sure prisoners felt anguish about that, but Geneva doesn’t cover the Koran. This is a legitimate psychological tool.
This act was no doubt mistreatment, I’m just not sure it was torture.
Comment by Lesly — April 14, 2006 @ 3:45 pm
I’d like to add one more thing. Let’s say -for the sake of the argument- flushing a holy book in front of a believer is not torture.
Why desecrate the holy book of a religion whose followers number a billion and growing? What is the point in doing that? Some “allies” in the so-called war on terror are majoritarily Muslim; commiting a sacrilege of this nature can only be counterproductive.
Not only it does not help the US standing in the world, but it was already known at the time most detainees had no ties to terrorist groups, and are still being held even though they have not been accused of committing hostile acts against the United States or its allies.
Flushing a holy book (any holy book) is done in order to satisfy the sadistic fantasies of the US military personel who does it (see anvilhead’s post), not to extract any valuable, “actionable”, intelligence . The same could be said about the other detention centers the US military runs around the world where prisoners have been tortured.
The people who go out of their way to defend and advocate torture (that’s you anvilhead) should keep in mind that the torturers will come back to the US one day. They will be your neighbors, teachers, local law enforcement officers, co-workers, etc. and will still want to fulfill those fantasies -except there will be no “them others” to unleash them on. Only you, your child, or spouse.
April 14th, 2006 at 4:17 pmThe people who go out of their way to defend and advocate torture (that’s you anvilhead) should keep in mind that the torturers will come back to the US one day. They will be your neighbors, teachers, local law enforcement officers, co-workers, etc. and will still want to fulfill those fantasies -except there will be no “them others†to unleash them on. Only you, your child, or spouse.
Comment by Gregor Samsa — April 14, 2006 @ 4:17 pm
Nail on the head! You know, I think that’s what we should be doing, Gregor, telling them how (and all other humanitarian issues) this will impact them negatively on a personal level, because it is abundantly clear that they only have egocentric perspectives of the world anyway. Excellent post.
April 14th, 2006 at 4:24 pm“stand naked in front of a female interrogator, was accused of being a homosexual, and was forced to wear women’s underwear and to perform ‘dog tricks’ on a leash.â€
Hey! My wife makes me do that!
April 14th, 2006 at 4:27 pmRyan is right. I’ve intervied Korean vets that were tortured. Splitting hairs will not justify this practice. No matter ‘what kind of torture’, using a soft club vrs. a hard one is still TORTURE. People who do this are animals, orders or no orders,looking the other way is still torture.
April 14th, 2006 at 4:29 pmWay to ignore what I’ve said so far, Jules. You can heighten anxiety as long as it doesn’t cross the line into severe discomfort. The usual excuse for torture and ill-treatment of detainees is time-sensitivity (the ticking time bomb scenario), and a shortage of interrogators instructed in Cognitive Interview methodology.
I wasn’t there, Gregor. Perhaps they were using manipulation of ego and/or pushing emotional buttons.
I’ll just repeat myself. I’d be glad they’re taking their sadistic fantasies out on a book.
I haven’t read anvil’s posts but thanks for not clumping me with him.
April 14th, 2006 at 4:36 pmI think that’s what we should be doing (…) because it is abundantly clear that they only have egocentric perspectives of the world anyway. Excellent post.
Comment by unbelievable — April 14, 2006 @ 4:24 pm
Thanks for the compliment.
I have tried the religious angle -but even though they profess to be Christians, such talk does not sway torture advocates.
I have tried the moral and ethics argument -but even after claiming the highest of moral character, they will not be convinced torture is immoral, and inhumane.
They do not understand torture is not about who *they* are, but who *we* are.
“Do unto others as you would have them do to you” wasn’t followed by “unless they are Arab/Muslim or you think they’re inferior”.
You are rigth that the egocentric perspective is the problem. Sadly, I am running out of arguments… ::sigh::
April 14th, 2006 at 4:42 pm[…] From ThinkProgress.com: […]
April 14th, 2006 at 4:45 pm“Back to the Koran flushing example, where does Geneva say a “psychological tool†or method of interrogation is prohibited? Lesly”
I’ll spell it out for you, since you clearly aren’t bright enough to reason through this on your own.
“c) Outrages upon personal dignity”
To flush a muslim’s Koran is in fact an outrage on their personal dignity. It would be the equivalent of making you stand naked in public - another tactic used.
April 14th, 2006 at 4:47 pmLesly,
Shouldn’t you be over at Redstate?
April 14th, 2006 at 4:52 pmPersonally, I think the crying face of Jill Carroll, the torture and murder of Tom Fox and the beheading of Nick Berg beats standing naked with underwear on one’s head and receiving the title of “homosexual” - sounds like San Francisco to me…..
April 14th, 2006 at 4:53 pmYou are rigth that the egocentric perspective is the problem. Sadly, I am running out of arguments… ::sigh::
Comment by Gregor Samsa — April 14, 2006 @ 4:42 pm
Well, I think you’re right. They don’t respond to religion, because religious ideologies can’t even agree on which of them is ‘right’. Morality they’ve confused with religion and just leads back to the religious arguments. But it seems that they do understand their pocketbooks, their sexual organs, their need for 64 oz. sugar-laden soft drinks, their desire for 24/7 desperation television shows, etc. - but especially their egos. I think we just have to give it back to them in the only terms they will ever understand - theirs.
After that, well, isolation usually works wonders with the really obnoxious students. And if it’s all about them, then it not being about them at all should coerce them to temper their selfishness to be accepted. Just a thought :)
April 14th, 2006 at 4:54 pm“Performing dog tricks on a leash” isn’t torture, as Mr. Rumsfeld would be happy to demonstrate.
Sit, Rummy! Roll over! Resign!
Good boy!
April 14th, 2006 at 4:56 pmGregor, prime example:
Personally, I think (a list of things she personally does not like) sounds like (a city she does not like) to me…..
Comment by mighty aphrodite — April 14, 2006 @ 4:53 pm
Only about four non-egocentric words in that entire post that were only used because she HAD to.
I think you’re on to something….
April 14th, 2006 at 4:58 pmI’m going to torture a troll now…..IGNOR.
April 14th, 2006 at 4:59 pmI’ll just repeat myself. I’d be glad they’re taking their sadistic fantasies out on a book.
Comment by Lesly — April 14, 2006 @ 4:36 pm
The problem with degrading treatment is that it is -literally- a slippery slope.
I don’t have the reference at hand, but it has been shown in studies that such treatment escalates in closed environments -as a prison would be, or a detention camp.
How several provisions against prisoner abuse in the Geneva Conventions came about is interesting, and should be considered when discussing the topic: WWII. The Nazis were very fond of degrading, torturing, raping all prisoners of “inferior” stock. It ranged from the almost banal, like shining boots beyond what was needed, to the outright bizarre and disturbing, like forcing Russian prisoners to get naked and into freezing waters in the middle of the winter to figure out how long a human could survive in such conditions. Yes, many Russian prisoners (children, adult, and old, men and women), died of hypothermia as the Nazis repeated this “experiment” over and over and over…
The idea behind the provision that reads “Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;” is precisely to prevent prisoners from being humiliated -such as having to do menial tasks over and over, or seing their holy book flushed down the toilet. And also from being subjected to ever crueler treatment.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:04 pm“Personally, I think the crying face of Jill Carroll, the torture and murder of Tom Fox and the beheading of Nick Berg beats standing naked with underwear on one’s head and receiving the title of “homosexual†- sounds like San Francisco to me…..
Comment by mighty aphrodite ”
Really? How much experience do you have with standing in your underwear getting beaten in San Francisco?
Yet another GLIB comment in response to the torture, and suffering of others.
You’re a CLASSIC SOCIOPATH you disgusting freak.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:04 pm
April 14th, 2006 at 5:04 pmHere’s hoping Rummy does the reight thing like Goering when he has his chance.
Ryan:
No it isn’t. Forcing you to stand naked in public is compulsory action against your person. Inanimate objects don’t enjoy the same level of protection.
This argument is as specious as defending the destruction of property, riots, and the death threats against Denmark’s cartoonists following the “outrage on their personal dignity.â€
April 14th, 2006 at 5:05 pm“Way to ignore what I’ve said so far, Jules. You can heighten anxiety as long as it doesn’t cross the line into severe discomfort. The usual excuse for torture and ill-treatment of detainees is time-sensitivity (the ticking time bomb scenario), and a shortage of interrogators instructed in Cognitive Interview methodology. Lesly”
And yet you’re fabricating information that’s not relevant to the Geneva Convention.
It’s clear that humiliating and undignified treatment is against the convention, because they CREATE ANGUISH AND ARE THEREFORE TORTURE.
Just because you think this torture is ‘better’ than physical torture just shows you probably grew up in a dysfunctional family - it doesn’t prove your point.
You’re an IDIOT.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:07 pmtrueblue:
I was wondering when someone would hint I should show myself to the door for having the gumption to disagree. Thanks for not disappointing, TB.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:09 pm“No it isn’t. Forcing you to stand naked in public is compulsory action against your person. Inanimate objects don’t enjoy the same level of protection. Lesly”
The inanimate object is not what’s being protected, it’s the act that insults the dignity of the prisoner. Since muslims honor the koran as though it were a part of their body, this is a disenguous and STUPID argument.
“This argument is as specious as defending the destruction of property, riots, and the death threats against Denmark’s cartoonists following the “outrage on their personal dignity.†Comment by Lesly”
That’s a non-sequitor you retarded MORON. One act of humiliation and anguish does not justify one in response.
You’re such a FOOL.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:09 pmInanimate objects don’t enjoy the same level of protection.
Comment by Lesly — April 14, 2006 @ 5:05 pm
We are not talking simply about an inanimate object, but the impression that it leaves on a person to see it flushed down a toilet -which is humiliating treatment.
This argument is as specious as defending the destruction of property, riots, and the death threats against Denmark’s cartoonists following the “outrage on their personal dignity.â€
Aaahhh… so this is where you are coming from… dirty, rioting Muslims do not deserve your respect, eh?
So, some Muslims across the globee rioted, so I am gonig to unleash my sadistic fantasies on those I can get my hand on… good job, Lesly.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:11 pmNo, it’s just that you sure don’t seem to have an open mind.
Please, stay all you want and get beat up by Ryan.
It’s kinda fun to watch and see how long it will take for you to realize IT IS TORTURE.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:12 pm“I was wondering when someone would hint I should show myself to the door for having the gumption to disagree. Thanks for not disappointing, TB. Lesly”
You aren’t disagreeing, you’re lying, distorting and misrepresenting - something redstate is famous for, and why you’d be more comfortable with your ‘own kind’ - propagandists you know.
This is from the independed UN report you MORON.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:12 pmGregor, are you suggesting every military recruit in all branches of the armed forces are being degraded by their drill instructors?
April 14th, 2006 at 5:14 pmLesly - we do not mind disagreement or debate in the progressive ranks, unlike the right. However, your agruments do not make much sense.
Could you please explain how this -
This argument is as specious as defending the destruction of property, riots, and the death threats against Denmark’s cartoonists following the “outrage on their personal dignity.†-
has anything to do with a perosn being locked up and tortured?
April 14th, 2006 at 5:14 pm“It’s kinda fun to watch and see how long it will take for you to realize IT IS TORTURE. Comment by trueblue ”
That’s like asking your dog to juggle - he just doesn’t have the genes for it. Folks like Lesly are too stupid to realize any fact that isn’t spoon fed through their own childish preconceptions.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:14 pmAnd Lesly, this is also from the report:
And you know what the administration argues, that they should be allowed to violate the human rights of others because they’re at war. Ironic considering that Saddam did most of his ‘crimes’ because of internal terrorist threats from Kurdish separatists and his war with Iran. By the justification of this administration - Saddam committed no crimes. Nice to know isn’t it?
Hypocrisy is always the one thing we can count on from republican values.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:17 pmThanks Gregor - I read and re-read her post to try to find some connections to torture. Now I get it. Somewhere in the world there is a muslim doing something Lesly does not like. Therefore, what is happening at Gittmo is alright.
Dang - how did you get that?
April 14th, 2006 at 5:18 pmJules,
Lesly seems to confuse a non-sequitor with a specious argument. I think he must have gone to the same lawschool as mighty moron - bahaha
April 14th, 2006 at 5:19 pmRummy: “Condi, hold this terrorists head down while I jam this lightstick in his ass.”
Condi” “Can I put my boots on his neck?”
Rummy: “Sure, he is going to crack and tell us where all the terrrists are hiding, that is what Dick Cheney said!”
-GSD
April 14th, 2006 at 5:20 pmare you suggesting every military recruit in all branches of the armed forces are being degraded by their drill instructors?
Comment by Lesly — April 14, 2006 @ 5:14 pm
I hope you are trying to be funny, because it is a very lame comeback.
It was degrading in as much as it went very well beyond what a drill instructor would impose as a disciplinary action. It was also degrading because Nazis forced doctors, engineers, high-ranking Russian officers to do these tasks.
They got a kick out of using one high-powered, and well-respected people to perform these menial tasks -hence humiliating and degrading them.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:21 pmGregor:
Well, you had to do it, put words in my mouth. But if you insist frankly they can be dirty, rioting Christians for all I care. I’d sooner tell Pat Robertson off than cave in to censure out of respect for his flock of literal sheep. I make no special exception for Muslims.
Do you tell Christians in the U.S. to shut up with their persecution meme? If you do it for Christians, why don’t you show Muslims tearing down private property and stating they’re going to kill those Danish cartoonists the same side of your hand? Is it a little harder to defend freedom of speech when the attacker demonstrates he’s willing to carry out his threats, hm?
April 14th, 2006 at 5:21 pmThe blowback from this one may come from overseas - a la the Newsweek story. It would be sweet irony if public opinion in the middle east forced Rummie out.
–
April 14th, 2006 at 5:22 pmhttp://griperblade.blogspot.com - grumblings from the heartland
Another ethically empty Republican.
Dr. Strangelove or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
April 14th, 2006 at 5:22 pmAnd lets be absolutely honest here, we object to force feeding when people do it to geese and yet we are expected to view it as being acceptable when the military does it to humans? WTF?
April 14th, 2006 at 5:24 pm“Do you tell Christians in the U.S. to shut up with their persecution meme? If you do it for Christians, why don’t you show Muslims tearing down private property and stating they’re going to kill those Danish cartoonists the same side of your hand? Is it a little harder to defend freedom of speech when the attacker demonstrates he’s willing to carry out his threats, hm? Comment by Lesly”
Who’s defending the destruction of private property?
You argue like Squishypoop - you make up a stand for your ‘opponent’ that they’ve never offered.
What kind of RETARD are you anyway? What are you 12 years old? You sound STUPID with this entire thread.
The Geneva Convention PREVENTS HARSH AND/OR DEGRADING, HUMILIATING or CRUEL TREATMENT IN ADDITION TO TORTURE. Gitmo has implemented ALL of these protocols.
Just because you refuse to acknowledge reality doesn’t change reality, but it proves your a NUT JOB.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:24 pmwell done Bin laden for exposing the USA for what they really are…..Ha ha
April 14th, 2006 at 5:27 pmObviously this is another troll who has not served in the armed forces.
Basic training is not fun, not by any stretch of the imagination. Among other things, I was yelled at, hell, I was screamed at, I was made to run and/or march until I was dead tired, I picked up cigarette butts, I scraped and washed dishes, I was awoken at 3 AM, or whatever AM they had in mind. However, never once, not one time, would I ever compare what I went through in basic training to what is happening to these HUMAN BEINGS at Gittmo.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:28 pmRyan,
He ain’t never gonna get it.
It’s actually getting tough to watch now.
What’s harder is knowing that there are probably a few million out there who are just as dense as Lesly.
Sad world.
Get that perv. Rummy out!
April 14th, 2006 at 5:29 pm74#Gitmo has implemented ALL of these protocols.
watch the film “road to guantanamo and tell me they respect the geneva convention” as the rest of the world watches this film in disgust
April 14th, 2006 at 5:29 pmWell, you had to do it, put words in my mouth.
Comment by Lesly — April 14, 2006 @ 5:21 pm
I didn’t -you did a god job yourself. It is a complete non sequitut. Please don’t bring it up again.
If you do it for Christians, why don’t you show Muslims tearing down private property and stating they’re going to kill those Danish cartoonists the same side of your hand?
More non sequitur -we were talking about prisoner torture. But if you are Muslim, I will show it to you.
For the record, I thought the Fatwa against Rushdie was beyond the pale, and flat-out wrong.
Is it a little harder to defend freedom of speech when the attacker demonstrates he’s willing to carry out his threats, hm?
??? I have no clue what you are talking about.
What Muslims in Denmark and elsewhere are doing has no bearing on whether or not flushing the Quran down the toilet is humiliating treatment… for the believer who sees it, not the book.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:29 pmAnd lets be absolutely honest here, we object to force feeding when people do it to geese and yet we are expected to view it as being acceptable when the military does it to humans? WTF?
Comment by Bruce Gorton
Absolutely, Bruce.
Last year there was picketting in front of Boston Restaurants that served foie gras. (did I spell that right?)
April 14th, 2006 at 5:32 pmBut it’s not torture for Gitmo detainees.
Sickening.
flushing the Quran down the toilet is humiliating treatment… for the believer who sees it, not the book.
Comment by Gregor Samsa — April 14, 2006 @ 5:29 pm
This is precisely why I don’t think “Do unto others as you would have done unto you” works. It’s egocentric, thinking that what you want, everyone wants and what you don’t want, no one else wants.
Instead, why can’t we just ask? Find out how someone wants to be treated instead of assuming we are the center of everything. There’s a reason we have cultures (plural) and not culture, after all.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:37 pmBruce and trueblue - the geese probably have better manners than most humans. Easy to feel sympathy for them when they aren’t blowing everything up, or trying to. :)
April 14th, 2006 at 5:40 pmJules,
It’s always the chickenhawks that call for using torture and psychological measures. Just talk to anyone who’s involved with intelligence, and they’ll tell you that in fact the opposite (rewards) are what work.
The Washington Post has a great article from way back that debunks the psychological torture ‘myth’ from real intelligence officer’s who’ve been in that place, and say it does NOT work.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp-dyn/ articles/ A2302-2005Jan11.html
Sorry, but only people with sexual/psychological problems (Lesly/MightyMoron/MizzWrong) ever call for this sort of things. Lesly, do us all a favor, and find a good S&M club and get your freak on in a responsible manner. Your repressed ‘closet’ interests make you a sick whacko.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:42 pmOh, and Lesly,
Changing the subject, deflecting, and trying to place blame where there is none are very lame debating strategies. Might work during a live conversation but is easily shut down in a written format.
Please don’t mention the riots in Denmark, and/or ask us to condemn them right here and now. They have nothing to do with whether or not flushing a Quran down the toilet is degrading for the Muslim person who witnesses the act. They are also irrelevant to the fact that Muslim prisoners were tortured, and that there are reports that Rumsfeld was involved in the abusive interrogation techniques used.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:43 pm“This is precisely why I don’t think “Do unto others as you would have done unto you†works. It’s egocentric, thinking that what you want, everyone wants and what you don’t want, no one else wants. unbelievable”
Unfortunately if Lesly is a represeed closet S&M person he/she might very well be doing that :) This only works if the person involved isn’t a sick whacko.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:45 pmRyan:
If you check your caller ID I’m sure you’ll find your friend Kettle rang a few times.
Greg:
I see. So, offering comparisons is a bad debating strategy when it inconveniences the person you disagree with.
Well, I can’t say I’ll take your advise, but thanks for offering.
And yes, Jules, calling shining boots unnecessary degrading work is so very civilian.
April 14th, 2006 at 6:01 pmDang - how did you get that?
Comment by Jules — April 14, 2006 @ 5:18 pm
Because I’ve heard it before: “How can you defend those Muslims, haven’t you seen them rioting in Denmark?”
A complete non sequitur -and goes to show you how for some people *they* (blacks, Muslims, Asians, etc.) all look alike.
It is also an indication of people’s propensity to connect completely unrelated events by some flimsy logic. It so common, it even has a name. It’s called apophenia.
April 14th, 2006 at 6:02 pmI wouldn’t be surprised to find out that Rummy stripped down the Gitmo detainees himself.
http://www.lcoliberal.blogspot.com
April 14th, 2006 at 6:02 pmAnn Coulter: Criminal? You bet
Now on LCL
[…] So it shoudn’t surprise anyone that he’s now being accused of personally directing the humiliating torture of a detainee at Guantanamo Bay. […]
April 14th, 2006 at 6:03 pmOT…But interesting
http://news.yahoo.com/ s/ ap/ china_look_hu_s_talking;_ylt=AmbYkYAg5VOFm9YugfHNarKs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ–
http://news.yahoo.com/ s/ ap/ 20060414/ ap_on_re_mi_ea/ iraq_new_embassy;_ylt=AmGETc_NQwLGSKUFIBBvNF_9xg8F;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b3JuZGZhBHNlYwM3MjE-
April 14th, 2006 at 6:05 pmcalling shining boots unnecessary degrading work is so very civilian.
Comment by Lesly — April 14, 2006 @ 6:01 pm
I said “shining boots well beyond what was necessary”. And then I expanded by explaining who was made to do the job.
Washing my car is not degrading, but if I forced my people at work to do it then it would be.
April 14th, 2006 at 6:08 pmNow the truth of torture order is out it was Rummy. Connie’s statement that thousands of mistakes were made. I guess American parents that support this invasion don’t mind their sons/daughters dying for the criminal acts of this Administration. Even if thier parents don’t care God does. Bush is back drinking because of his crimes. Rummy will be welcomed in hell. Connie will have to relive the time in history she forgot slavery. Funny how people say they are religious yet they do Satan’s work. Pray this weekend for the troops who are losing their lives because we Americans let Bush/Cheney/Rummy lie to them. We are as guilty as Bush for the deaths of these young men/women. We didn’t stop it from happening. May God forget us all.
April 14th, 2006 at 6:12 pmSo, offering comparisons is a bad debating strategy when it inconveniences the person you disagree with.
Comment by Lesly — April 14, 2006 @ 6:01 pm
You didn’t just offer a comparison. You changed the subject:
Do you tell Christians in the U.S. to shut up with their persecution meme? If you do it for Christians, why don’t you show Muslims tearing down private property and stating they’re going to kill those Danish cartoonists the same side of your hand?
Comment by Lesly — April 14, 2006 @ 5:21 pm
What does this have to do with people being humiliated in Guantanamo? Does this somehow justify it?
April 14th, 2006 at 6:16 pm“If you check your caller ID I’m sure you’ll find your friend Kettle rang a few times. Lesly”
No that was your head ringing from the slugging I gave you, but that you were TOO STUPID to know.
“I see. So, offering comparisons is a bad debating strategy when it inconveniences the person you disagree with. Lesly”
They are when those comparisons are a Non-Sequitor. Something a 12 year old like yourself wouldn’t know.
“Well, I can’t say I’ll take your advise, but thanks for offering. Lesly”
Adolescents rarely do, it’s why you have such high rates of promiscuity, drug use and suicide. No boundaries are respected - it’s a hormone thing. Hopefully you’ll grow out if it when you get out of puberty.
“And yes, Jules, calling shining boots unnecessary degrading work is so very civilian.
Comment by Lesly ”
Interesting, because that wasn’t the claim he made. As I stated, a 12 year old can’t do basic reading comprehension - so your STUPID comments are to be expected.
As I already corrected you.
The UN says we’ve tortured and mistreated prisoners, and VIOLATED HUMAN RIGHTS. We trashed Saddam for this, and said it was reason enough to invade. Too bad you’re such a STUPID HYPOCRITE that you believe we should be permitted to do things Saddam was criticized for. Not surprising - you’re a republican, that’s pretty much the definition of ignorance and hypocrisy.
April 14th, 2006 at 6:17 pmLesly, Do you support our troops? They say a bad apple should be tossed… Do you support the troops?
April 14th, 2006 at 6:22 pmwhen i speak to friends in ireland or england, they feel sorry for us americans. sad that the most “promising” democracy in the world has failed its people.
donald rumsfeld is a prime example that ameica has failed her citizens. a majority of experts in war have called for rumsfeld to step down.
soldiers risking their lives in iraq don’t like rumsfeld.
what does that do for soldier morale ?
america is not a dictatorship. rumsfeld thinks it is, and that’s why he refuses to resign.
April 14th, 2006 at 6:27 pmI support them, Nym, but I don’t support the dreadful mismanagement of this administration or the concept of a unitary executive that can illegally spy on U.S. persons, sign exclusive NPT-like agreements with India and get around Geneva thanks to the Authorization to Use Military Force.
The problem is people like Ryan are so goddamn angry up about everything Bush has done they think any deviation from what they consider to be the right opinion is, that is, their opinion, is immoral. At the end of the day they don’t care about America; they’re just the other side of the coin.
April 14th, 2006 at 6:27 pmOkay, here is my take on it:
Flushing the Koran down the toilet? That is distasteful, but ultimately, not in itself an abuse of human rights.
Flushing the Koran down the toilet while forcing a Religious Muslim prisoner, who you have just force fed, dressed in a pink tutu and called gay, to watch? That is an abuse of human rights. It is an insult to the prisoner’s religion, and to the prisoner him or herself.
On its own, forcing a prisoner to watch as you desecrate their holy book is a degrading act. In combination with everything else; it becomes an element of torture, aimed at making the prisoner’s life a literal living hell.
April 14th, 2006 at 6:41 pmAt the end of the day they don’t care about America; they’re just the other side of the coin.
Comment by Lesly — April 14, 2006 @ 6:27 pm
Everyone cares, and yes -there is a lot of resentment. Specially because we get trolls everyday spewing all kinds of nasty insults to all of us in this blog.
Also, some usually start subdued, asking simple questions like “Why would flushing the Quran down the toilet be a bad thing?”, and next thing I know they go on long rants against Muslims, “filthy leftists”, and making death threats. It gets old very quickly.
So, what do you think of Mr. Rumsfeld developing such cute interrogation tactics while claiming all prisoners were being treated humanely?
April 14th, 2006 at 6:41 pmI am ashamed of the level that our nation has succumbed under W. After over two hundred years of being the shining star in the sky, sinking to the lowest abyss in the sea is a severe reversal of our role in the world.
April 14th, 2006 at 6:44 pmALL YOU CRYBABIES….WORRIED OVER HUMAN RIGHTS… THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A SHAM, AND REAL LEADERS HAVE ALWAYS WORKED AROUND THEM…. THIS IS WAR, ITS BEWTWEEN CHRISTIANITY AND ISLAM. THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS. I DONT CARE IF THE USA HAS TO TORTURE CHILDREN, WE ARE GOING TO WIN THIS WAR.
NOBODY SCREAMS ALLAH AKBAR ON THE WATERBOARD, AND WHO CARES ABOUT THE KORAN, ITS ONLY AN OLD BOOK. AT LEAST YOU CAN BUY ONE IN AMERICA. TRY TO BUY A BIBLE IN TEHRAN.
NEXT TIME YOU FILL UP YOUR AUDIS AND YOUR VW PASSATS THINK ABOUT WHERE THAT CHEAP GASOLINE CAME FROM. FROM THE BLOOD OF HEROES.
April 14th, 2006 at 6:46 pmKneel before Rummy! Bark like a dog!
April 14th, 2006 at 6:49 pmGregor:
Trolling is one thing but I’ve been on the receiving end of Ryan’s insults since our first disagreement. People like Ryan are not an asset to any ideology.
I think, “Well what do you expect?” Certainly not the truth from this White House. I assume the spin will be something along the lines of “That damn ‘liberal’ media putting endangering the lives of our soldiers by actually doing their jobs again!”
April 14th, 2006 at 6:53 pmAnvilhead
Heroes fight to defend the weak, to protect the innocent, and for the greater good of all humanity, not just Americans. Do not sully the word you scumbag.
April 14th, 2006 at 6:54 pmTRY TO BUY A BIBLE IN TEHRAN.
Comment by anvilhead — April 14, 2006 @ 6:46 pm
More uninformed comments from the new troll… gosh, will it ever stop?
Comments on your obvious mental state aside, let me point out there are Christians in Iran. From the top of my head I can think of one ethnic minority in Iran who are majoritarily Christians: Armenians. If I recall correctly they are either Catholic or Orthodox. So you can buy a Bible in Tehran.
I DONT CARE IF THE USA HAS TO TORTURE CHILDREN,
I think this says it all… you need help, seriously…
April 14th, 2006 at 7:08 pmThose Gitmo detainees munch on popcorn, drink coca cola while they watch movies. Plus, they get paid as much as Lee Raymond. Quitcherbeefin’ about all of this stuff.
Give Rumsfeld a break. He’s a nice guy.
bush watch
April 14th, 2006 at 7:11 pmOK, Lesly,
I will try to put it in a way you may better understand. No religion; I don’t want that fight.
Here goes:
Pretend you are me.
I have a prized item from my beloved grandmother. She crocheted an afgan. Hideous, 70’s colors. But she made it for me, and she’s now dead. I cherish it deeply. I also have her ‘30″s era “secretary”.
Now, I’ve been captured and been isolated for a few weeks. All the while they are telling me what a piece of crap those two things are. Then one day, they parade me out, stip me down, and force me to watch as they smash up the secretary and burn it, and cut up the afgan and spit on it, and throw that in the fire. All the while, the chant that my grandmother is nothing, let’s say “a slut.”
April 14th, 2006 at 7:13 pmIs that torturing me… I mean, YOU, since you are pretending to be me? Is it?
Do you get it now?
Have you no empathy?
You’re an “anvilhead” indeed, although bonehead, pinhead, and mullethead also work. This is a war between christianity and islam? Really?? Bush and Rummy have been telling us it’s a war against terror - are they lying to us again anvil? The ends justify the means? That sounds like something bin laden might say anvil. If the koran is just an old book, then what does that make the bible you fool. Simply rearranging but a few of your words would earn you a visit from the guys in black Crown Victoria’s anvil.
April 14th, 2006 at 7:15 pmBy the way anvil, I agree with you that this is the most incompetent administration ever:)
April 14th, 2006 at 7:17 pm#104 - Gregor,
April 14th, 2006 at 7:18 pmNew testament is a snap, old requires some searching. On the other hand, try buying a Quran in Israel - it is a bit difficult.
Let’s not forget the Constitution, Quadrajet.
April 14th, 2006 at 7:19 pmThat’s an old piece of paper by anvilhead’s reasoning.
In my mind, all this is quite simple. The USA I used to live in condemned those who used torture; now our elected leaders condone it while disavowing knowledge of it. Torture does not yield reliable information, nor is it what I expect of a civilized people.
April 14th, 2006 at 7:22 pmtrueblue - did you use ‘anvilhead’ and ‘reasoning’ in the same sentence?
April 14th, 2006 at 7:27 pmLOL!!!
April 14th, 2006 at 7:29 pmTwo opposing concepts in one sentence! Pretty Damned Good, isn’t it?!
Thanks for the trivia, WaltTheMan ;-)
April 14th, 2006 at 7:32 pmVery impressive trueblue - but I think we should try to confine ourselves to words of no more than two syllables when we address hammeredhead. You and I get it, but will he?
April 14th, 2006 at 7:35 pmQuadrajet,
Ugg.
-trueblue
April 14th, 2006 at 7:38 pmIs anyone really THAT surprised? As we all know, Rumsfeld was actually sent by President Reagan in the 80’s to Iraq, in order to tell Saddam Hussein that we had no problem with the human rights abuses he committed against Iranian child-soldiers and his own population. Read more below, if interested:
Rumsfeld obviously needs his ass to be kicked right out of the governmental office in which he works assidously to pursue his own warmonger and destructive agenda. He does not represent me or any other thinking human being who has a stake in the world’s continued spinning around as best it can, without war and without torture and without this arrogant, shameless fool.
April 14th, 2006 at 7:47 pm#114 - Gregor,
April 14th, 2006 at 7:52 pmIt is not trivia. In the Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Finland Liechtenstein Switzerland, or Britain, I could walk into a bookstore and purchase any document that I desired. And, I did. What makes these book banners any different from Hitler?
OT but “Oh My God”
U.S. Building Massive Embassy in Baghdad
By CHARLES J. HANLEY (AP Special Correspondent)
From Associated Press
April 14, 2006 3:58 PM EDT
BAGHDAD, Iraq - The fortress-like compound rising beside the Tigris River here will be the largest of its kind in the world, the size of Vatican City, with the population of a small town, its own defense force, self-contained power and water, and a precarious perch at the heart of Iraq’s turbulent future.
The new U.S. Embassy also seems as cloaked in secrecy as the ministate in Rome.
“We can’t talk about it. Security reasons,” Roberta Rossi, a spokeswoman at the current embassy, said when asked for information about the project.
A British tabloid even told readers the location was being kept secret - news that would surprise Baghdadis who for months have watched the forest of construction cranes at work across the winding Tigris, at the very center of their city and within easy mortar range of anti-U.S. forces in the capital, though fewer explode there these days.
The embassy complex - 21 buildings on 104 acres, according to a U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee report - is taking shape on riverside parkland in the fortified “Green Zone,” just east of al-Samoud, a former palace of Saddam Hussein’s, and across the road from the building where the ex-dictator is now on trial.
April 14th, 2006 at 7:56 pm…story continues….
Comment by anvilhead - - I think the T.P. staff likes to have fun and role play.
April 14th, 2006 at 7:59 pmanvil is an example of why i’m not into organized religion. it’s a bunch of B.S. lies to control your actions anyway.
these wacked out christians are no different than the wacked out muslims who believe in the lies told them about the 70 virgins. just look at eric rudolph.
i say we put all the wacked out muslims and christians together on an island and let them duke it out. if it weren’t for them we would be living in a much happier world, for sure.
April 14th, 2006 at 8:02 pmU.S. Building Massive Embassy in Baghdad - - “It will be up to future presidents to decide how to best secure the release of a huge embassy staff held hostage, once again, in the Middle East.”
April 14th, 2006 at 8:03 pmRumsfeld thinks torture is to be used. No mention in there of any information gleaned. Any titbits! Sick person! Wonder if they made some Video’s and took pics for Don also! Or maybe they progresseed to that stage in Iraq.
April 14th, 2006 at 8:17 pmAny form of torture once started were does it stop.The whole concept that torture can be used at all opens up a slide into the likes of the dark ages.
How much toture is OK? none i say!
Any person using or approving of torture should be hauled up in front of the ICC for crimes against humanity.
If torture is used by USA then torture will be used by enamies of the USA on the people of the USA also. Not a good world.
#123: “No mention in there of any information gleaned. Any titbits!” - - Let’s not bring up Janet Jackson again, please.
April 14th, 2006 at 8:25 pmThank you, Lesly - I enjoyed your reading your posts. There are some people who connect the dots and others who need to have all the “i”s dotted and “t’s crossed to understand a point you made. (Ever read so many “What do you mean by THAT??” in your life.) I think having a pair of underwear stuck on the head of an enemy combatant head is only degrading if it’s fully loaded….You will find a couple of people who enjoy the sport of argument and engage intellectually; there are a few full timers who resort to calling conservatives the usual banal tripe - but what’s really telling is when one of their own strays off the plantation on a particular point - a fine example of a species who eats their own. Happy Holiday!!
April 14th, 2006 at 8:50 pmBadmoodman - yes a bit of track, titbits, but interesting thought, USA home to the worlds largest porn industry but the amount of interest in Janet Jackson breast seen for a second did seem amazing
April 14th, 2006 at 8:55 pm#27
“c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;”
People do that HERE in this blog on a daily basis. LOL!
April 14th, 2006 at 10:06 pm#69
So those thousands of U.S. military drill instructors are ALL guilty of torture.
April 14th, 2006 at 10:08 pmMIGHTY HYPOCRITE… please have the decency to be a little embarrassed that we, a democracy that screams about dictators and their mistreatment of people, are now discusiing the nuances of the word ‘torture’. there is no ‘good’ torture! torture is torture . i dont give a rat’s ass what the torture was for. ITS WRONG!!! TURN THE OTHER CHEEK!!!!!!
April 14th, 2006 at 10:09 pmMIGHTY HYPOCRUTE…. HAPPY HOLIDAY???? you are one sick puppy!!!!!
April 14th, 2006 at 10:11 pmThe Nazis were very fond of degrading, torturing, raping all prisoners of “inferior†stock.
April 14th, 2006 at 10:27 pmTracy,
Please, don’t start this again.
You must, as an intelligent person, know the difference between torture and military brainwashing…..
It’s a half joke, but really, you’ve got to be kidding me.
You don’t really want us to equate DI’s with what the detainees @ Gitmo went through.
Did you not see the pic’s?
April 14th, 2006 at 10:38 pmRumsfeld is definately mentally ill for wanting to sexually degrade prisoners and take pics of them too! The Congress must inform Bush to fire Rummy or his entire Regime goes to prison for war crimes!
April 14th, 2006 at 11:43 pmIt’s kinda late for this, I know, but I have Weapons of Math Destruction, Paul Krugman’s latest, up at my place.
April 15th, 2006 at 12:23 am“THINK ABOUT WHERE THAT CHEAP GASOLINE CAME FROM”-anvilhead
um, I don’t know what alternate universe you are living in but when gasoline is at 3 dollars a gallon, I think we might need new “heroes”
April 15th, 2006 at 2:06 amThere is a song called The Promise by Tracy Chapman that makes me remember an old true love and how much we wanted to be together but couldn’t. The song is sweet and tragic at the same time.
I went to peacetakescourage.com and found it being played with a heart breaking video of family and loved ones that have forever lost a part of them and will suffer never ending pain because of the careless, arrogant actions and tremendous lies of the Bush administration.
We are all angry at what the Bush administration’s lies have resulted in particularly in Iraq. We can all make fun of how incredibly stupid and incompetent George Bush is. But something is getting lost in our message of outrage. Please watch this to understand the most important impact of what Bush’s actions/lies have done.
It’s hard to watch but SO necessary. If you’re not moved by this or don’t feel a pain in your heart, you should apply for a job in the Bush White House or go to help re-elect any member of Congress that justifies this War in Iraq (or any War for that matter).
Please watch/listen and pass it around:
http://peacetakescourage.cf.huffingtonpost.com/ animations/ brokenpromises.html
April 15th, 2006 at 3:32 amRumsfeld’s a twisted little pervert.
April 15th, 2006 at 6:20 amI’m sure prisoners felt anguish about that, but Geneva doesn’t cover the Koran. This is a legitimate psychological tool.
This act was no doubt mistreatment, I’m just not sure it was torture.
Comment by Lesly #25
Dear Lesly,
…The problem with ALL of this post-September 11th bullsh*t “war on terror” is that…
…the TREASONOUS Bushite junta (and their ignorant racist supporters)…
…are currently engaged in “revenge”…
…not the seeking of “justice”…
…and unfortunately for the dipsh*t poor/middle working class Bushites- and the innocent Iraqis and Afghanis…
…your gods (Bushiva and L’il Dick et al) have been making HUGE profits from your brainwashing and the sacrificing of your children…
…and totally disrespecting, disrupting and destroying your way of life respectively…
…Lesly, I sincerely hope that people like yourself have the opportunity to experience…
…the treatments and terror tactics towards incarcerated “enemy combatants”, (and make no mistake NOT everyone at Gitmo or other Bushite torture centers are guilty of being such), that you defend the criminal Bushite junta’s use of…
…your karma demands it…
April 15th, 2006 at 11:18 amCan anyone that has ever listened to Rumsfeld for any length of time doubt for a moment that he would personally authorize torture? Cheney too for that matter. Bush has reserved the right to disregard all laws that prohibit torture as an executive prerogative. If this imaginary prerogative actually exists we should make it illegal to delegate. Bush can torture, wiretap, or rendition but only if he does so personally without assistance.
April 15th, 2006 at 11:19 amRummy’s becoming a laughingstock, between the the outright hostility from the seven, and growing, U.S. generals calling for him to resign and now the torture development. I predict he’ll resign in the next month.
I am a little surprised that he actually took part in the torture of a Gitmo detainee though. You’d think he was too busy to fly down to Gitmo and electricly shock a naked terrorist.
http://www.lcoliberal.blogspot.com
A photo of Rummy torture? Now on LCL
http://www.sunstateactivist.org
April 15th, 2006 at 11:34 amWith all of the horrors fascism at the head of our nation has unleashed not only upon the world but upon our own citizens congress has the nerve to play to the most racist, unlettered, bigoted segment of America, by displaying it’s priorities in bringing forth in all speed an investigation, not of the president, not of the secratery of state, not ofd the vice-president, not of a variety of congress people involved in treasonous activities leading us into a war for oil and private vengeance, no none of these, no, instead theirpriority, the thing they think most important is a trial to find if a baseball player, a member of the entertianment industry used “skill enhancing steroids”? This ought to give the world an idea of the intellectual standard devaittion of congress people and those who voted them into office.
April 15th, 2006 at 11:41 amI thought this was the 21st Century? The “Age of Enlightment”. Have we experianced a time warp? Are we back in the Dark Ages? The past few years have been a nightmare. Would someone please wake me up and tell me it was just a bad dream.
April 15th, 2006 at 11:52 am[…] Think Progress […]
April 15th, 2006 at 12:13 pmRummy is a pervert because he wanted to see the pics of Iraqi & Afghan prisoners being sexually degraded and molested! The Bush Regime is filled with sickos, so shame on them!
April 15th, 2006 at 12:18 pmFlushing the Koran isn’t torture? The ends justify the means?
Bush and Rumsfeld et al didn’t just flush the Koran.
They flushed the Constitution, people.
THEY ARE TORTURING us
April 15th, 2006 at 12:28 pmThere’s the motto for a new, more forceful, NeoCon America: “Worse than the Nazis.” Way more arousing than the boring mathematical slogan, “E pluribus unum.” What’s that in Latin? “Peior quam Nazis?”
I wonder if, in some future day when the new bastion of decency and freedom emerges, if the US will be the new default villain in the adventure movies of some latter day Speilberg. In fact, I’m willing to bet George Bush’s PNaczis (or NeoC’s) are even now spearheading a secret mission to find the Ark of the Covenant, somewhere in the middle east. Just wish I could be there to watch Rumsfeld’s head explode.
~John Mayer
April 15th, 2006 at 1:11 pmNo surprise here. Each and every one of them is black to the core.
http://www.wintersteel.com/RobertDuncanOFinioan.html
April 15th, 2006 at 1:34 pmCongratulations Lesly, Hermaphrodite has got your back. You are in good company.
April 15th, 2006 at 2:36 pmDemands for resignations and impeachments will not work because both the political parties in USA are controlled by the same lobby.
I wish that there is a public demand for prosecuting those responsible for torture, under the Geneva Convention.
There should also be a demand for payment of reparations to the illegally occupied countries.
April 15th, 2006 at 2:52 pmI’m a guest here, but found this to be a really good discussion. I’d just like to add a comment for all those who think the treatment described does NOT constitute torture. What we’ve read described here is not being considered in it’s overall context. This is a prisoner who is being held under extremely stressful conditons 24 hours a day for months and even years without an end in sight. The prisoners at Gitmo are held in physically uncomfortable conditions…. a cramped cage of a cell, often naked, deprived of any comfort (some reports say that some are not even given a blanket). Every moment of every day is controlled tightly by soldiers barking orders in a strange language who consider the prisoner an enemy & hold him in comtempt, regardless of what we now know is the probable innocense of many of the prisoners. They have no communication with loved ones, & are deprived of any consolation from being able to answer their charges with legal representation & the hope of a day before an unbiased court. They probably have no idea from one moment to the next what is going to happen to them next. That in itself is a very frightening situation for most people.
When you hold a person under these conditions and then take them out and use psychologically degrading and humiliating measures against them in physical surroundings they have no hope of escaping from, that is indeed torture.
Think of anyone you know who has had an unpleasant experience in their own lives of being victimized in a hostage situation, rape, kidnapping, armed robbery, or even a dangerous episode of domestic violence. A single act of this type of agression can leave permanent psychological scars, PTSD, and fear that never goes away. Now imagine holding a person under those same threats for months or even years. ANY interrogation tecnique that adds to the extreme fear & stress the prisoner is already experiencing is unwarranted.
America has never been known as a nation of barbarians. But what is being done in OUR NAME at Guantanamo & other locations is barbaric!
April 15th, 2006 at 3:31 pm