Comments on: New Report: Rumsfeld ‘Personally Involved’ In Torture Allegations at Gitmo http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/ Fri, 27 Nov 2009 04:50:46 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Jack http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-4/#comment-548039 Jack Tue, 09 May 2006 15:30:05 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-548039 Who needs to go to Iraq or Cuba for torture, we have it in the USA, complete with guns to the head, plastic bags, and electric shock to the genitals. <a href="http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/09/1415210" rel="nofollow">"Chicago's Abu Ghraib: UN Committee Against Torture Hears Report on How Police Tortured Over 135 African-American Men Inside Chicago Jails"</a> Who needs to go to Iraq or Cuba for torture, we have it in the USA, complete with guns to the head, plastic bags, and electric shock to the genitals.

“Chicago’s Abu Ghraib: UN Committee Against Torture Hears Report on How Police Tortured Over 135 African-American Men Inside Chicago Jails”

]]> By: Paul Revere http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-4/#comment-508679 Paul Revere Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:12:23 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-508679 The Christian thing has always been an excuse to absolve yourself from your responsibility to the universe for your own actions. I don't believe that there is another religion used for this purpose. Mohammedism is the exact oposite and maybe this is why the "Christians" feel they have to have a new "Crusade" every few hundred years. Whether the "Crusade" is against another religion or another nationality does'nt seem to make a difference. The "Christians" are always right and the "enemy" is always wrong. The Christian thing has always been an excuse to absolve yourself from your responsibility to the universe for your own actions. I don’t believe that there is
another religion used for this purpose. Mohammedism is the exact oposite and maybe this is why the “Christians” feel they have to have a new “Crusade” every few hundred years.
Whether the “Crusade” is against another religion or another nationality does’nt
seem to make a difference. The “Christians” are always right and the “enemy”
is always wrong.

]]> By: Gregor Samsa http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-4/#comment-508510 Gregor Samsa Mon, 17 Apr 2006 04:59:00 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-508510 <i>According to some here verbally degrading someone is torture, which is of course….ridiculous. Comment by Tracy — April 16, 2006 @ 11:50 pm </i> If you are talking about me -since it was me who mentioned the boot shining example- I never claimed it was torture, and that was lost on both you and Lesly. Please re-read my posts. What I said, and will maintain, is that such treatment was humiliating and degrading; the Nazis made sure their prisoners knew who was in control, which is exactly the idea behind a treatment like that. I even offered an example: "Washing my car is not degrading, but if I forced my people at work to do it then it would be". You seem to agree with me degrading treatment is not right. I further maintain flushing the Quran down the toilet is humiliating for the believer who sees it. I also maintain it goes against a provision in the Geneva Convention that states "(...) the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever(...) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment" In a nutshell: Flushing a holy book down the toilet and forcing people who believe in it to see it, is done expressly to humiliate them, and it violates the spirit and the letter of the Geneva Convention. Have I explained myself now? According to some here verbally degrading someone is torture, which is of course….ridiculous.
Comment by Tracy — April 16, 2006 @ 11:50 pm

If you are talking about me -since it was me who mentioned the boot shining example- I never claimed it was torture, and that was lost on both you and Lesly. Please re-read my posts.

What I said, and will maintain, is that such treatment was humiliating and degrading; the Nazis made sure their prisoners knew who was in control, which is exactly the idea behind a treatment like that. I even offered an example: “Washing my car is not degrading, but if I forced my people at work to do it then it would be”.

You seem to agree with me degrading treatment is not right. I further maintain flushing the Quran down the toilet is humiliating for the believer who sees it. I also maintain it goes against a provision in the Geneva Convention that states “(…) the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever(…) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment”

In a nutshell: Flushing a holy book down the toilet and forcing people who believe in it to see it, is done expressly to humiliate them, and it violates the spirit and the letter of the Geneva Convention.

Have I explained myself now?

]]> By: Tracy http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-4/#comment-508491 Tracy Mon, 17 Apr 2006 03:50:16 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-508491 #133 If you knew what SEALs go thru you wouldn't be asking that question. I am not saying it's right, but let's please keep some perspective here. According to some here verbally degrading someone is torture, which is of course....ridiculous. #133

If you knew what SEALs go thru you wouldn’t be asking that question. I am not saying it’s right, but let’s please keep some perspective here. According to some here verbally degrading someone is torture, which is of course….ridiculous.

]]> By: Bill Tanner http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-4/#comment-508424 Bill Tanner Sun, 16 Apr 2006 23:24:34 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-508424 Bushie needs to ditch Rummy. Bushie needs to ditch Rummy.

]]> By: JPark http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-4/#comment-508356 JPark Sun, 16 Apr 2006 20:40:36 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-508356 I agree meg. If MA agrees with you you know you are clearly wrong. Or just plain evil. Not sure which. I agree meg. If MA agrees with you you know you are clearly wrong. Or just plain evil. Not sure which.

]]> By: Rumple Stiltskin http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-4/#comment-508163 Rumple Stiltskin Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:19:34 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-508163 Can't we just extradite Rumsfeld to Iraq, for crimes against humanity, where they can torture his anus & balls at Abu Gharib prison, indefinitely, and put it live on the internet for all to see?... Can’t we just extradite Rumsfeld to Iraq, for crimes against humanity, where they can torture his anus & balls at Abu Gharib prison, indefinitely, and put it live on the internet for all to see?…

]]> By: Shawn http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-4/#comment-508091 Shawn Sun, 16 Apr 2006 05:48:25 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-508091 What do you expect? Rummy Dummy is one of the head neocon nazi slave traders of PNAC. These clowns from hell are just warming up in Gitmo...and getting their act together for KBR's homeland concentration camps and the influx of "immigrants, you know...the ones like...US! What do you expect? Rummy Dummy is one of the head neocon nazi slave traders of PNAC. These clowns from hell are just warming up in Gitmo…and getting their act together for KBR’s homeland concentration camps and the influx of “immigrants, you know…the ones like…US!

]]> By: Don Harvey http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-4/#comment-508033 Don Harvey Sun, 16 Apr 2006 03:05:15 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-508033 We have become what we say we hate. We have become what we say we hate.

]]> By: steve http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-4/#comment-507910 steve Sat, 15 Apr 2006 21:13:51 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-507910 http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/150406sheentv.htm http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/150406sheentv.htm

]]> By: steve http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-4/#comment-507908 steve Sat, 15 Apr 2006 21:12:24 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-507908 US on par with Nazi Germany, says RAF officer in Iraq trial 13 Apr 2006, The Guardian, Richard Norton-Taylor US on par with Nazi Germany, says RAF officer in Iraq trial
13 Apr 2006, The Guardian, Richard Norton-Taylor

]]> By: steve http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-4/#comment-507906 steve Sat, 15 Apr 2006 21:10:06 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-507906 Rumsfeld and all the other 9/11 zionists should be taken out as soon as possible...American traitors! They did 9/11 www.st911.org Rumsfeld and all the other 9/11 zionists should be taken out as soon as possible…American traitors!

They did 9/11 http://www.st911.org

]]> By: someone http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-4/#comment-507891 someone Sat, 15 Apr 2006 20:07:31 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-507891 Anvilhead, oh my. You may want to reconsider your statement. The experts, and anyone in intelligence (not govt), can tell you intelligence gained through torture is widely recoginzed to be close to worthless. That is a proven fact, established and backed by years of experience of professionals in the field. As tempting and easy it might look like beating the hell out of anyone (either physically or psychologically) to extract information out of them, it just does not work. And no, the end does not justify the means. The means change you, eventually you change so much the "end" is distorted, and the means slowly melts into an end. If the end justifies the means, you could go to a bank, shoot everyone and take the cash because you want to donate it to some strap funded organization that "defends America". Anvilhead, oh my.

You may want to reconsider your statement. The experts, and anyone in intelligence (not govt), can tell you intelligence gained through torture is widely recoginzed to be close to worthless. That is a proven fact, established and backed by years of experience of professionals in the field. As tempting and easy it might look like beating the hell out of anyone (either physically or psychologically) to extract information out of them, it just does not work.

And no, the end does not justify the means. The means change you, eventually you change so much the “end” is distorted, and the means slowly melts into an end. If the end justifies the means, you could go to a bank, shoot everyone and take the cash because you want to donate it to some strap funded organization that “defends America”.

]]> By: meg_mac http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-4/#comment-507878 meg_mac Sat, 15 Apr 2006 19:46:47 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-507878 Congratulations Lesly, Hermaphrodite has got your back. You are in good company. Comment by JPark — April 15, 2006 @ 2:36 pm <strong>jpark</strong>i think she actually made things worse for lesly! now i dont take her seriously either! they must get paid by the word from the repugs. only way i can figure they would even want to come here! nothing substanitive but LOTS of stupid words. rack up that bill mighty hypocrite!! Congratulations Lesly, Hermaphrodite has got your back. You are in good company.

Comment by JPark — April 15, 2006 @ 2:36 pm

jparki think she actually made things worse for lesly!
now i dont take her seriously either! they must get paid by the word from the repugs. only way i can figure they would even want to come here! nothing substanitive but LOTS of stupid words. rack up that bill mighty hypocrite!!

]]> By: PJ http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-4/#comment-507875 PJ Sat, 15 Apr 2006 19:31:46 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-507875 I'm a guest here, but found this to be a really good discussion. I'd just like to add a comment for all those who think the treatment described does NOT constitute torture. What we've read described here is not being considered in it's overall context. This is a prisoner who is being held under <em>extremely </em>stressful conditons 24 hours a day for months and even years without an end in sight. The prisoners at Gitmo are held in physically uncomfortable conditions.... a cramped cage of a cell, often naked, deprived of any comfort (some reports say that some are not even given a blanket). Every moment of every day is controlled tightly by soldiers barking orders in a strange language who consider the prisoner an enemy & hold him in comtempt, regardless of what we now know is the probable innocense of many of the prisoners. They have no communication with loved ones, & are deprived of any consolation from being able to answer their charges with legal representation & the hope of a day before an unbiased court. They probably have no idea from one moment to the next what is going to happen to them next. That in itself is a very frightening situation for most people. When you hold a person under these conditions and then take them out and use psychologically degrading and humiliating measures against them in physical surroundings they have no hope of escaping from, that is indeed torture. Think of anyone you know who has had an unpleasant experience in their own lives of being victimized in a hostage situation, rape, kidnapping, armed robbery, or even a dangerous episode of domestic violence. A single act of this type of agression can leave permanent psychological scars, PTSD, and fear that never goes away. Now imagine holding a person under those same threats for months or even years. ANY interrogation tecnique that adds to the <em>extreme fear & stress </em>the prisoner is already experiencing is unwarranted. America has never been known as a nation of barbarians. But what is being done in OUR NAME at Guantanamo <em>& other locations </em>is barbaric! I’m a guest here, but found this to be a really good discussion. I’d just like to add a comment for all those who think the treatment described does NOT constitute torture. What we’ve read described here is not being considered in it’s overall context. This is a prisoner who is being held under extremely stressful conditons 24 hours a day for months and even years without an end in sight. The prisoners at Gitmo are held in physically uncomfortable conditions…. a cramped cage of a cell, often naked, deprived of any comfort (some reports say that some are not even given a blanket). Every moment of every day is controlled tightly by soldiers barking orders in a strange language who consider the prisoner an enemy & hold him in comtempt, regardless of what we now know is the probable innocense of many of the prisoners. They have no communication with loved ones, & are deprived of any consolation from being able to answer their charges with legal representation & the hope of a day before an unbiased court. They probably have no idea from one moment to the next what is going to happen to them next. That in itself is a very frightening situation for most people.

When you hold a person under these conditions and then take them out and use psychologically degrading and humiliating measures against them in physical surroundings they have no hope of escaping from, that is indeed torture.

Think of anyone you know who has had an unpleasant experience in their own lives of being victimized in a hostage situation, rape, kidnapping, armed robbery, or even a dangerous episode of domestic violence. A single act of this type of agression can leave permanent psychological scars, PTSD, and fear that never goes away. Now imagine holding a person under those same threats for months or even years. ANY interrogation tecnique that adds to the extreme fear & stress the prisoner is already experiencing is unwarranted.

America has never been known as a nation of barbarians. But what is being done in OUR NAME at Guantanamo & other locations is barbaric!

]]> By: K http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-3/#comment-507859 K Sat, 15 Apr 2006 18:52:14 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-507859 Demands for resignations and impeachments will not work because both the political parties in USA are controlled by the same lobby. I wish that there is a public demand for prosecuting those responsible for torture, under the Geneva Convention. There should also be a demand for payment of reparations to the illegally occupied countries. Demands for resignations and impeachments will not work because both the political parties in USA are controlled by the same lobby.

I wish that there is a public demand for prosecuting those responsible for torture, under the Geneva Convention.

There should also be a demand for payment of reparations to the illegally occupied countries.

]]> By: JPark http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-3/#comment-507852 JPark Sat, 15 Apr 2006 18:36:06 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-507852 Congratulations Lesly, Hermaphrodite has got your back. You are in good company. Congratulations Lesly, Hermaphrodite has got your back. You are in good company.

]]> By: Robert Duncan O'Finioan http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-3/#comment-507821 Robert Duncan O'Finioan Sat, 15 Apr 2006 17:34:50 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-507821 No surprise here. Each and every one of them is black to the core. www.wintersteel.com/RobertDuncanOFinioan.html No surprise here. Each and every one of them is black to the core.

http://www.wintersteel.com/RobertDuncanOFinioan.html

]]> By: John Mayer http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-3/#comment-507812 John Mayer Sat, 15 Apr 2006 17:11:46 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-507812 <blockquote>THEY SHOUT ALLAH THIS AND ALLAH THAT, BUT WHEN THEY GET CAUGHT, THEY KNOW AMERICAN PRISONS ARE WORSE THAN THE NAZIS.</blockquote> There's the motto for a new, more forceful, NeoCon America: "Worse than the Nazis." Way more arousing than the boring mathematical slogan, "E pluribus unum." What's that in Latin? "Peior quam Nazis?" I wonder if, in some future day when the new bastion of decency and freedom emerges, if the US will be the new default villain in the adventure movies of some latter day Speilberg. In fact, I'm willing to bet George Bush's PNaczis (or NeoC's) are even now spearheading a secret mission to find the Ark of the Covenant, somewhere in the middle east. Just wish I could be there to watch Rumsfeld's head explode. ~John Mayer

THEY SHOUT ALLAH THIS AND ALLAH THAT, BUT WHEN THEY GET CAUGHT, THEY KNOW AMERICAN PRISONS ARE WORSE THAN THE NAZIS.

There’s the motto for a new, more forceful, NeoCon America: “Worse than the Nazis.” Way more arousing than the boring mathematical slogan, “E pluribus unum.” What’s that in Latin? “Peior quam Nazis?”

I wonder if, in some future day when the new bastion of decency and freedom emerges, if the US will be the new default villain in the adventure movies of some latter day Speilberg. In fact, I’m willing to bet George Bush’s PNaczis (or NeoC’s) are even now spearheading a secret mission to find the Ark of the Covenant, somewhere in the middle east. Just wish I could be there to watch Rumsfeld’s head explode.

~John Mayer

]]> By: bongborg http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/comment-page-3/#comment-507803 bongborg Sat, 15 Apr 2006 16:28:50 +0000 http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/14/new-report-rumsfeld/#comment-507803 Flushing the Koran isn't torture? The ends justify the means? Bush and Rumsfeld et al didn't just flush the Koran. They flushed the Constitution, people. THEY ARE TORTURING <strong><em>us</em></strong> Flushing the Koran isn’t torture? The ends justify the means?

Bush and Rumsfeld et al didn’t just flush the Koran.

They flushed the Constitution, people.

THEY ARE TORTURING us

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