ThinkFast: April 15, 2006
ThinkFast: April 15, 2006
New emails from Jack Abramoff to former top Bush procurement official David Safavian show a “highly inappropriate relationship where gifts and business interests mixed freely and frequently.” One message from Abramoff, sent July 23, 2002, asks Safavian, “golf Friday? golf Sunday? golf Monday? golf, golf, golf!!”
“Far from being daunted,” one of the generals who called for Secretary Rumsfeld’s resignation, Maj. Gen. Charles H. Swannack Jr., who commanded the 82nd Airborne Division in Iraq until 2004, went further in an interview with the New York Times: “His arrogance is what will cause us to fail in the future.”
Hundreds of immigrants who joined recent marches have been fired from their jobs. “[S]ome protest organizers say word of the firings spread rapidly and might have a chilling effect on many more workers and on students, some of whom also say they have faced discipline for missing school for rallies.”
Retired Lt. Gen. Thomas McInerney, a military analyst for Fox News and the Weekly Standard, on war in Iran: “I can lay out a campaign today that will take Iran down very quickly.” McInerney on war in Iraq in 2002: “[I]t will be a war that is shorter than” the 1991 Gulf War, which lasted 42 days.
A good sign you’ve chosen the wrong person to run Iraq’s 135,000 member police force: When asked whether he likes his job, he responds: “No. I don’t want to keep it! They force me to take it. I’m a civil engineer, a merchant. I can’t continue. I don’t want to continue. My specialty is construction, industry… I want to rebuild Iraq.”
“Reach Out and Tap Someone.” AT&T is suing to require a company whistleblower to return internal documents “detailing how the telecom giant built a special spy-room for the National Security Agency” which housed a “vacuum-cleaner” surveillance system.
A new, unpublished research paper by MIT professor Kerry Emanuel “torpedoes one of the few comforting thoughts of this storm-racked era: The notion that our current spree of active hurricane seasons is part of a natural cycle that’s due to calm down in 10 or 20 years.”
The Homeland Security Department has issued a bulletin warning U.S. businesses of the threats from “eco-terror” groups, whose tactics include “flyer distribution” and “sending continuous faxes in order to drain the ink supply from company fax machines.” According to TPMMuckraker, no similar bulletins have addressed violent right-wing organizations, whose activities have actually resulted in fatalities (unlike eco-terrorism).
Council on Foreign Relations Iran expert Ray Takeyh sounds off: “I think the intellectual poverty of the administration’s approach to Iran is only mirrored by the intellectual poverty in their planning of the war in Iraq.”
Sudan divestment campaign scores another victory: California State Teachers’ Retirement System Board — “the nation’s second largest pension fund with over $141 billion in assets” — voted 9-0 to divest the fund’s holdings from companies with ties to the genocidal regime.
And finally: The Kansas Law Review, “which prides itself on promptness,” reportedly took only 25 minutes to reject a submission by Ohio State law professor Christopher Fairman. “It seems they read the title. Who knew the Kansans were so sensitive?”
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E mail to Jack: Instead of golf on Sunday;how about being a caddie for the Warden?
April 15th, 2006 at 1:45 amRe: The Eco-terrorism thing.
Homeland Security and the FBI have both been targeting free speech by environmental and animal rights groups as "terrorism" for awhile.
Pretty damn scary if they think sending out leaflets and faxes are terrorist acts.
Though, come to think of it, I've had quite a few evangelicals accost me in the streets for donations to their twisted religion.
Next time, I think I'll e-mail report them to Homeland Security and the FBI, labeling them as "Christio-terrorists." Ditto for any other kind of communication I receive that I don't agree with.
If the want to waste their time on crap complaints, rather than going after real terrorists, I'll give 'em more to go after.
April 15th, 2006 at 6:12 amBB,
People who are affiliated with activist groups of all types are being watched and rightly so. I am sure I've been checked up on and so has my family and many of my friends and I am glad.
Should certain Pro-lifers be watched? I think so. Should members of certain religious sects be monitored? Absolutely. Why not ecco-extremist who have demonstrated a penchant for increasingly violent and costly acts?
Ted Kaczynski alone is proof TP is being disingenuous in its statement regarding fatalities.
April 15th, 2006 at 7:41 amCalling for Rumsfeld's resignation is a moot point. If he goes he'll be replaced by someone just as bad. The incompetence comes from the top.
April 15th, 2006 at 8:12 am[...] Posted by chris under Politics Golf is the squarest thing going. It is the sport of Docker-wearing politicians and materialist suburban fuckheads. If you doubt that assertion, check out this nugget from ThinkProgress: “New emails from Jack Abramoff to former top Bush procurement official David Safavian show a “highly inappropriate relationship where gifts and business interests mixed freely and frequently.†One message from Abramoff, sent July 23, 2002, asks Safavian, “golf Friday? golf Sunday? golf Monday? golf, golf, golf!!â€â€ [...]
April 15th, 2006 at 8:52 amWho ever thought we'd become nostalgic for the good old days when there was "no real news" and all reporters, newspapers and television networks were obsessed with covering the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal? :/
April 15th, 2006 at 9:25 amRead my open letter to Comedy Central where I point out that the censorship of "South Park" over images of Prophet Mohammed is damaging to Muslims.
And also send a note of protest to Comedy Central.
April 15th, 2006 at 9:37 amTed Kaczynski alone is proof TP is being disingenuous in its statement regarding fatalities.
Comment by troll — April 15, 2006 @ 7:41 am
This is the 'Broad non factual' Ministry assault. Notice How Troll, stupidly trys to connect Ted Kacyznski that "Proves" TP is Disengenous. Sounds like it came right from Buckleys Wacko Fax doesn't it? Let Me alter the 'Trolls' words a Bit and return the Idiotic Statement;
April 15th, 2006 at 9:53 am-----------------------
Joseph Stalin alone is proof Conservative Republicans are being disingenuous in its statement regarding fatalities in Iraq..
-------------
Time to get a 'neo' act Troll
For those folks here who would like a really heartwarming Easter Story, click the link..
An Easter Story Diary At Kos
April 15th, 2006 at 10:19 amWell it's Saturday, April 15th 2006 and here we all are, taking a hard look at our state of affairs with this botched Homeland Security, being run by the failed, dual citizen, walking dead, Chertoff. Our white house being run by evil waramongers wanting to bomb the shit out of the world and promoting the total sell off of our own country. Mass media blitzes by the radical reich winged nut bags, while we scramble and investigate for any truths anywhere and one lonely troll spouting the reichs usual crap. Get a grip troll or go preach to your own choir.
I find it sad and funny that the illegal's are out in number screaming for civil rights and wanting all the benefits of citizens when they have broken the law and are flooding our country with more illegals daily and think they should be able to leave their jobs and schools to demand right's most of us are loosing. They want every one to compair them to the civil rights of the 60's. The only comparison is in the numbers. Untill our borders are closed and protected all who are allowed to enter should be screened and tracked by employment. Get in line and take a number. No amnesty for law breakers, thank you very much, no matter where you came from. My Irish ancesters came over on a boat and were documented, worked hard and survived. Why are Bush and Fox so bent on allowing this mas migration to happen.? It's all about big business, cheap labor and dismanteling our safety nets by over use of illegals. I can't get a free medical card because I am not on welfare, but they can and while they are having all their medical needs met and more babies are being born here ordinary life long citizens are falling through the cracks. Our ports and borders must be tightened before another huge mass of unknown people flood in. Raising minimum wage would also be a big plus. Hell, getting this bunch of liers and thieves out of office is our main priority......Blessings
April 15th, 2006 at 10:28 amI can't get indignant over people being fired for leaving their work to go protest. I can't just take 2-3 days off without notice, and if they found out I used sick leave to take the days off without being sick, I could very well get fired (not sure about that though). So I think that issue's a non-starter.
Secondly, all this "eco-terrorism" hysteria is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard of. Are they arsonists? Yep. Vandals? Yep. But terrorists? Jesus H., talk about a law being twisted to serve the rich. These people have at their core the wish to SAVE -- the environment, people's lives, the quality of life. They are NOT murderers, they are NOT terrorists. The idea that the FBI wastes time on this crap while, say, ignoring people of who want to learn how to fly a jetliner but not land it is a symptom of corrupted priorities. The insurance and tourism lobbies sure spent their back-room cash well to even get anyone to concoct the idiotic phrase "eco-terrorism". . . it is so fucking ABSURD!!!
April 15th, 2006 at 10:42 amI find it sad and funny that the illegal’s are out in number screaming for civil rights and wanting all the benefits of citizens when they have broken the law and are flooding our country with more illegals daily and think they should be able to leave their jobs and schools to demand right’s most of us are loosing.
Comment by Sharon Cox #11
Sharon,
...In this "illegal immigration" canard we must All keep two things in mind...
1) These "illegal immigrants" are TRULY "indigenous" Americans whose ancestors rightfully occupied many of the lands they are currently flocking back to. Were it not for the overwhelming military might and sheer numbers of Anglos who invaded these territories, they would STILL be occupied by these "illegal immigrants" (the truly indigenous North Americans)...
2) The TREASONOUS, corrupt, mass murdering, racist "conservative" Bushites are ONCE AGAIN (successfully) attempting to divert the American electorates passions and attention on yet another wedge (DIVIDE AND CONQUER the poor/middle working class masses) issue, away from their TREASON (Valerie Plame), mass murder in Iraq, war profiteering, and various other SERIOUS IMPEACHABLE offenses...
...the criminal CORPORATE special interests (rich profiteers) WANT this slave labor, and the "conservative" Republisum and Democrats in Congress want the little people to focus on their poor/middle working class "brothers and sisters" (who seek ONLY to feed their families) rather than on the corrupt lawmakers and CORPORATE TRAITORS who keep wages depressed (and outsource jobs) for their own profit!
...time to stop blaming the victims, and go after the REAL culprits...
...the WASP male dominated TREASONOUS corporate/military/penal industrial complex...
Wake up everybody!
April 15th, 2006 at 11:35 amIn Re law professor's "Fuck" paper, see "Which Is The Real Obscenity" http://editorialpaintings.com/pages/2/index.htm
Have a great weekend.
April 15th, 2006 at 12:03 pmI just thought of a solution that would solve two of America's problems at the same time (the proverbial two birds with one stone.)
Okay here is goes: When you catch illegal immigrants from Mexico, offer them full American citizenship if they join the American Army.
April 15th, 2006 at 12:39 pmPost 15 alot of them do join the military, but this kind of reminds me of Imperial Rome putting Germanic tribes into their military! Eventually the foreigners revolted and Rome was sacked by them! In the end the wide open border with Mexico will undermine our nation and will collapse like Rome! Bush seems to be speeding the process up, because about 6 million illegals came into US while he was president!
April 15th, 2006 at 12:48 pm16
Damnit, I didn't think anybody would catch the reference. Fact is the whole situation with Mexico, by the sounds of it sounds pretty much like a modern version of how the Romans were treating the Goths. It is a bit of a invitation to disaster.
April 15th, 2006 at 1:00 pmOn my local AA radio station today, one of the local news updates had a story about a highschool student who had been reprimanded by the Principal for leaving school to participate in the protests. The Principal went so far as to threaten the student with the possibility of going to jail. When the student went home that day, he killed himself. Sad stuff.
April 15th, 2006 at 4:16 pmtime to stop blaming the victims, and go after the REAL culprits…
…the WASP male dominated TREASONOUS corporate/military/penal industrial complex…
Wake up everybody!
Comment by big papa — April 15, 2006 @ 11:35
I'm with pops on this one; I work with mexicans every day (I'm in aeospace manufacturing) and they are very conscientious and hard working. And to risk the threat of unemployment for speaking their minds and have "progressives" rag on them as illegal shows disrespect both to them and to American labor. I remember a time when Americans also left work for political and economic reasons; they were called strikes. But back in the eighties, comfortable white collar workers saw that moving up the corporate ladder entailed shunning populism, and unions, and so they adopted Management's view. They didn't feel threatened by "blue collar" job losses (yet), they simply thought that it was unskilled jobs being outsourced, not higher-paying white collar jobs. Decades pass, and they now see that their jobs are also in jeopardy, but to assuage their feelings of impending economic doom (and perhaps a little guilt) they decide that "illegals" are the problem, not their own passiveness when other's jobs were threatened. The problem isn't "illegals" as much as good old American short-sightendness and political sloth. It's too bad that white-collar workers must scapegoat others to lessen their own angst. If you're so incensed about "illegals sucking up welfare services", try doing something proactive; demand that the government get a handle on the B-H1B guest worker program (which works to suppress wages - believe me I know; the shop I work in is two thirds mexican, one third American, and Asian B-H1B workers mixed), or other initiatives to strenghten fines and enforcement of existing laws. The current level of enforcement is a joke (I live in southern California), so let's remove the magnet before anything else. Peace.
April 15th, 2006 at 4:19 pmThe loud mouth libs were on the other side of the immagration issue 10 years ago. Its all political BS. Dems just want to turn this about race to demagogue the issue.
April 15th, 2006 at 6:33 pmCertainly racism exists on both sides of the aisle. Most Americans want the border closed for security and as long as we are subjected to the demagoguery of race by the left we are in danger.
Here's a crazy idea. Let's just make the United States of Mexico merge into and become part of the United States of America. Of course, we'll have top expand the US Capitol to accomodate all the extra Representatives and Senators, but it'll be well worth it. Now all those "illegal immigrants" who cross the border into the US just to find work will now be legal, tax-paying citizens earning a living wage.
And for those who view this purely as a security of our borders issue, the new border would be with Belize (which is an English-speaking country) and Guatemala, and would be much, much smaller and, therefore, easier to defend.
Just throwing a random thought out there. Don't take it too seriously.
But, speaking of building a wall between the US and Mexico: Why do we never talk about building a wall between the US and Canada, when illegal immigrants cross the border there, too? I mean, I understand the estimated numbers are smaller, but I never, ever, ever hear anyone talk about building a wall on the northern border. You don't think it has anything to do with the fact that Canadians are mostly white, do you? (Hint: I do.)
April 15th, 2006 at 9:14 pmPoor Poor Rainman,
Its seems turrets is setting in as well. Between spasms check what Boxer, Reid, Feinstein, Levin and Clinton were up to in the 90s here.
http://freedomeden.blogspot.com/2006/04/truth-about-democrats-and-immigration.html
It seems all you read is the crap they feed you here. You have brain freeze.
MORON
For those of you who wont bother reading. Reid proposed punishing illegal immigration as a felony.
April 15th, 2006 at 10:54 pmIf Harry Reid 'single handedly thwarted the will of the American people' like Bush said:Then shouldn't he [Reid]be President?
April 16th, 2006 at 2:15 amMost Americans want the border closed for security
Comment by troll — April 15, 2006 @ 6:33 pm
Then don't come here and blame the "left" for causing, aiding, abetting illegal immigration:
As debate over immigration heats up in the United States, more and more U.S. companies in need of cheap labor are turning to undocumented employees to recruit friends and relatives back home, and to smugglers to find job seekers.
Darcy Tromanhauser, of the nonprofit law project Nebraska Appleseed, said companies in need of workers rely on the networks to "pass along the information more effectively than billboards."
Many Mexicans Have Jobs Before Crossing
and as long as we are subjected to the demagoguery of race by the left we are in danger.
Read the article and you will see there is no "demagoguery of race" -simply supply and demand, free market economics driving the need for illegal immigrants.
As long as the economic aspects of illegal immigration are not addressed, there will always be someone willing to look for, and hire, illegal immigrants.
April 16th, 2006 at 2:46 amTed Kaczynski alone is proof TP is being disingenuous in its statement regarding fatalities.
Comment by troll
To Troll,
April 16th, 2006 at 8:03 amHave you ever heard of Timothy McVeigh or Eric Rudolph? They have far more blood on their hands than the loner known as the Unabomber, who, by the way, was turned in by his own liberal brother. But I agree with you that the violent right-to-lifers ought to be watched.
Rainman,
The legislation proposed by Reid and the blog report I cited did in fact mention his desire to make illegal immigration a felony back in 1993. I never said the link referenced last weeks legislation.
Rainman I know you are severely challenged and I try to help you out of charity but I can't do your reading for you. Go reread what I cited, there are links to MSM within it. I proved my point and you changed the subject and went on one of your phycho tirades. 13 years ago the Dems wanted to get tough on illegals today they are using the issue to attempt to paint Republicans as "racist" on the grounds that they (Repubs) are proposing legislation which Dems proposed ten years ago. I think that is sleazy politics.
Gregor,
I did not "blame the “left†for causing, aiding, abetting illegal immigration" I pointed to their demagoguery of the issue. Playing the race card is pure political BS. I personally don't agree with draconian measures to deal with illegals and I agree we need to address employers hiring illegals but for the sleazebags on the left to make it a race issue does not simply hurt repubs its hurting the nation by jeopardizing security and inflaming race relations.
April 16th, 2006 at 8:03 amLora,
April 16th, 2006 at 8:11 amMy point in referring to the unabomber is to contradict the assertion that that ecco-terrorist don't kill people. I in no way implied that right wing fanatics do not exist. Freaks exist on both ends and the middle of the political spectrum and the more nut jobs the FBI has on its radar the better off we all are.
My point in referring to the unabomber is to contradict the assertion that that ecco-terrorist don’t kill people..... the more nut jobs the FBI has on its radar the better off we all are.
Comment by troll — April 16, 2006 @ 8:11 am
Comment by troll
To Troll,
April 16th, 2006 at 8:25 amI'm glad you recognize that dangerous freaks exist on both sides. But I don't know if the unabomber really qualifies as an eco-terrorist. He didn't work with others and was mostly a disgruntled loner, as far as I can tell.
It wouldn't hurt, either, for the FBI to keep more of an eye on the pedophiles and men addicted to child porn in the various intelligence agencies, such as the Dept of Homeland Security.
Big Papa and all, First off, my reasons for wanting to close our borders on the north and south are purly for safety, security and slowing down the total monetary colapse of our country. I don't favor jailing the illegals, I do favor heavy fines for business owners that promote and traffic in illegal servitude. Raising the minimum wage to a standard all can live on would be a big help. It also would help our econemy. Not likely to happen in this administration.
I was born and raised in southern California, have worked all over the western states, my last husband was half mexican, half german and I am not a racests, never have been. I know what our country has done here and around the world, in the past and in the now. My point is, we can not continue with this mass border flooding of illegal immigrants from every where to continue. Regarding our countries past and present attrosaties like stealing lands and killing people, may I submit this quote by Mia Angelo "They did then what they knew how to do, now we know better we can do better". How I wish the second half were true. Stop the hiring and it will slow down the migration, close the borders and that will also help. The people that are presently here working and strugeling with us need to be documented and pay taxes like every one else. New immigrants need to apply and go through a legal process.
I live in a poor area and many of my neighbors are mexicans (legals), we have talked at length about the present mess and they are very upset that they had to jump through all the hoops and now millions get a home free pass. They have told me all the stories of poor wages and living conditions all over our country for years and I have seen first hand how the abuse profits the big business community and keeps the poor workers down. Non documented people are usualy paid cash and under the table with no deductions or benefits as though they did not exist. They also have the benifit of welfare and medical that I do not ascribe to or benefit from. I am one of the 48 million with no medical and approaching the terrible mess of the eligable gouged medical debacle.
For our country and all her citizens to survive we must first get these Rep's out and clean up our government. Both parties are at fault, one bunch for the war crimes and dismanteling our country and one side for being followers or enabelers, being intimidated and allowing one's country to be taken over from with in with out hardly a wimper is treason. It is also our fault if we allow it to continue, now that we know all this it makes us enabelers as well. Pleas forgive the length and errors.....New great book from Noam Chomsky " Failed States". half way through it, much I remember and a lot I did not know, as usual....Have a great Sunday all.......Blessings
April 16th, 2006 at 8:56 amSharon,
April 16th, 2006 at 9:53 amThank you for speaking honestly and not towing the Dem party line. What is done is done regarding the white man taking the country a hundred years ago. The natives stole it from the animals anyway. If they want it back let them do it reasonably or are we determined to make the southest the new mideast for the next two thousand years. As much as I like Mexicans I am glad we have the govenment and economy we have.
Dear Troll, ( something I never thought I would say) while I do agree with some things and appreciate your compliment I do not agree about our econemy or the present aministration. I never thought I would live this long and certainly never thought I would see our country in such a mess........Blessings
April 16th, 2006 at 10:03 amDear Sharon,
I have been trolling here for a couple months but have never been disturbed by a post before your last one. I was struck by the comment "something I never thought I would say". While I really dont know you and I disagree with you on certain issues as well you are my sister.
I would like to share a few thoughts and I hope, if I presume too much, that you will not take offense.
The administration will change. The economy will improve. The real mess is our increasing inability to see the humanity in our political adversaries. I am not your enemy. I dream, I hope, I cry, I laugh, I worry, I love, I want for my children. We are not all that different.
I am not a "born again Christian" though their is no shame in being so. I am not a war lover. I am not rich. I am not even middle class. I long for peace and liberty for people everywhere. I am trying to find my way the best way I know how. I am conservative because I believe in freedom from what has historically been the second greatest oppressor of humanity, government. (Pride being the first.)
I like the give and take of an honest debate and am guilty of pride and at times intolerance. But I dont hate any person though my speech may at times lack the charity it should convey.
I hope we can begin to see the humanity in each other again. I truly believe that most people desire the same ends we simply disagree on the means to that end. But if along the way we lose a sense of our shared humanity then we betray those ends and become that which we despise.
You seem like a kind soul and it is precisely for that reason your words struck me. If you, being a kind soul, found it surprising that you were sharing a kind word with someone with whom you have simple political disagreements, how much more difficult is it for those who are not so kind as you? Is it even possible for others less kind to muster the compassion necessary for such an expression? I fear not and lament the world we will leave behind if we dont change our hearts.
Blessings
April 16th, 2006 at 9:02 pmI pointed to their demagoguery of the issue. Playing the race card is pure political BS.
Comment by troll — April 16, 2006 @ 8:03 am
First,. thanks for keeping our exchanges civil.
There is demagoguery, to be sure. I am not clear what you mean by the "race card". Are you saying proponents and defenders of anti-immigration laws do not use rhetoric with racist undertones? Are you trying to say that immigrants in general, and Hispanics in particular, are wrongly perceiving the talk on immigration as being rooted in racism? Can you clarify that?
I personally don’t agree with draconian measures to deal with illegals and I agree we need to address employers hiring illegals
No argument here...
but for the sleazebags on the left to make it a race issue does not simply hurt repubs its hurting the nation by jeopardizing security and inflaming race relations.
You left me out in the cold again... the perpetrators of the WTC attacks were not in the US illegally. And this is where I am at odds with the logic behind passing more laws: People are talking about cracking down on illegal immigration (which I support) because it would prevent terrorists from slipping into the US (dubious logic). They talk about building a wall along the US-Mexico border but the Canadian border is practically unguarded. More laws to make it a felony to help a sick illegal, but not a word on enforcing existing laws that penalise employers who hire them to begin with.
April 17th, 2006 at 1:26 amGregor,
I am sure there are some people who have racism as the motive for immigration reform however I believe they are fringe elements and are a small minority. They should be ignored. I am also certain that some of those oppossed to that same reform are indeed "anti-american" (possibly racist) and that they also are the minority and overall should simply be ignored so that the discussion can move forward civily.
"Are you trying to say that immigrants in general, and Hispanics in particular, are wrongly perceiving the talk on immigration as being rooted in racism? "
Yes and I wonder how many actually believe this to be the case or are they claiming this because of the power the charge possesses.
"… the perpetrators of the WTC attacks were not in the US illegally."
They did not come through the ports either but the Dubie (sp?) deal was a problem. We need to be vigiliant.
"They talk about building a wall along the US-Mexico border but the Canadian border is practically unguarded."
The Canadian border is less of a problem because the Canadian government has a better grip on those within its borders and is overall more cooperative with the US. The issues we have with Canada can be solved diplomatically. Mexico does not have the same resources or desire to control its border. It is also alleged that Mexico is deporting its criminal element to the US as Cuba has done in the past and that the Mexican military is involved in narcotic trafficing across the border as well.
While I personally have no issue with the numbers of legal Mexicans entering the US I think some have a legitimate concern regarding assimilation and they argue for a reduction in number for the purpose of preserving a national identity. This is a seperate argument which should be addressed seperately. Nationalists are not necessarily racist.
April 17th, 2006 at 9:05 amGood Morning Troll and all, What state do you live in Troll.? Just wondering..Thank you for the post.
We all are in this together and you are right on many things. I believe the gauntlet was thrown by Bush and it is he and this administration who have devided our country. At this point in time all politicians who have not stood up and corrected the lies on both sides and prevented the sell off of our country are at fault. We are living in dangerious times, as you know and our need for a truly strong administration that followes the constitution instead of making up their own rules and raiding our country and the world seem very remote.
I don't hate you or any one else, even Bush, but often hate what some do or say. You are right ofcourse, we are all brothers and sisters and we must stop the killing.
It would be appropiate to add I and millions like me are mad as hell at the ignorance of many in our country and the waraminging being pushed by our government all over the world and here. There is no excuse for neglegance by choice in the case of Katrina and all the southern victoms nor the selling off of all our countries assets to promote more wars. Saber ratteling, war drum beating, arrogance and inciting people to hatred and rioting is not what a government and her people should be doing. Building, protecting and cleaning up all the polution in ones own country should be the first priority. Educating and suporting all citizens so each generation will be healthier, smarter and better stuards for the world should be another priority, Minding our own business and not supporting radical regimes all over the world would also be a big plus, our long history of supplieing WMD's to foreign countries for distruction of people and the planet is shameful. We have for some time been the agressors and now we are the worlds worst enemy. WE. Our country is now hated around the world, sadly with good reason. Much was not known in the past, lack of the media and attention to what our country was doing. Now we know, we should do better, instead we are being more distructive and killing more..Shame is on our country for the attrosaties of neglect and war.
Regarding the Canadian border, note in one of my posts I said all our borders. While the huge amount of illegal alliens is predominetly from Mexico there are large unprotected border crossings from Canada as well. An underground tunnell was found up by Blain, Washington last year and many smugglers have been filmed crossing into the States where there are working cameras. While Canada is more concerned than Mexico and working with us to some extent it still is not enough. Even a crazed bomber was caught here in 2000 from a Canadian crossing. Putting our national guard on duty at all these borders would be a good start. Stopping the crossings before they get into the country is a must do now issue.
In closing Troll, i suprised my self , because of the diffrences and past posts from you and I on totaly diffrent sides to the extreme I still respect all others except for this administration and I always listen even when I know I won't like what I may hear. ....By the way I am a fiscal conservative and a bleeding heart libral on all other issues.......Blessings, we need them....
April 17th, 2006 at 11:05 amI am sure there are some people who have racism as the motive for immigration reform however I believe they are fringe elements and are a small minority. They should be ignored.
Comment by troll — April 17, 2006 @ 9:05 am
Just ouf of curiosity, I googled for Michael Savage, Rush Limbaugh and this is what I found in less than five minutes:
The Roman Catholic Church flooded the streets because they cannot get parishioners anymore amongst educated white people who have caught onto the racket and instead they need to import dummies to sit in the church pews.(...)This has nothing to do with fairness for Mexican workers — it has to do with the greed ... That’s all there is to it. And that includes the Catholic Church pigs.
Savage Remarks Anger Catholics
"With the [Latino] population that has emerged, since they breed like rabbits, in many cases the whites will become a minority in their own nation... The white people don't breed as often for whatever reason. I guess many homosexuals are involved. That is also part of the grand plan, to push homosexuality to cut down on the white race"
I Heard the News Today... Oy, Boy!
I mean if — if you had a — a — a renegade, potential criminal element that was poor and unwilling to work, and you had a chance to get rid of 500,000 every year, would you do it?
The Rush Limbaugh Show Coverage - Mexican immigrants who illegally enter the U.S. are “unwilling to workâ€
My point here is that both Limbaugh and Savage are listened by millions of people around the US. A lot of them share many of the opinions both express on the air during their show. That's hardly a fringe minority.
Given that kind of talk by two very well known radio personalities, it is no wonder Hispanic immigrants view the talk on immigration as being essentially racist.
The issues we have with Canada can be solved diplomatically. Mexico does not have the same resources or desire to control its border.
You are not implying the US should apply a military solution (as opposed to a diplomatic one) to its immigration problem with Mexico, are you?
It is also alleged that Mexico is deporting its criminal element to the US as Cuba has done in the past and that the Mexican military is involved in narcotic trafficing across the border as well.
I didn't quite understand what you were talking about until I ran into Limbaugh's quote. That's a nasty smear, and you should consider the source. It makes no sense -the legal autorities in Mexico are all in this big conspiracy to deport criminal elements to the US? Please. I am sure some have a criminal past, but by and large illegals move to the US to make enough money to send back home to their relatives, not to "mooch".
I think some have a legitimate concern regarding assimilation and they argue for a reduction in number for the purpose of preserving a national identity.
"Preserving national identity"? You do realise that when people talk about the US' "national identity" they mean the predominant WASP culture -hence making the talk on immigration about race again, right?
The people who argue for a reduction in number of immigrants from LatinAmerican countries do so precisely to preserve people from Hispanic descent at a minimum. Again, it's talk with racial undertones.
And Hispanics do assimilate, to insist otherwise is to ignore reality:
[Hispanics] have been seen as not sharing in the successful European experience, perhaps due to a reluctance to assimilate into American culture. These fears are unwarranted: 2nd and 3rd-generation Hispanic men have made great strides in closing their economic gaps with native whites.
April 17th, 2006 at 1:41 pmAssimilation across the Latino Generations
Gregor,
You wrote
"You do realise that when people talk about the US’ “national identity†they mean the predominant WASP culture -hence making the talk on immigration about race again, right? "
No. Not at all. National Identity involves so much more than the alleged predominant "WASP" culture. Even if it did that would not be racism but rather culturalism. Government, national boundries, morals, language and patriotism all form part of a national identity and have nothing to do with race.
You are aware, are you not, that the term 'WASP" is derogatory and some would say RACIST? It would be no more fair to assume you are racist then it is to assume that immigration concerns or national identity and assimilation expectations are racist.
Do you deny that some mexican immigrants desire to take back the South West and reunite it to mexico?
Rush limbaugh has a three hour a day five day a week show and is held to an incredibly high standard that I am grateful I am not held to and from your "WASP" comment you should be as well. I feel confident in saying that if he were given the opportunity to clarify that remark he would immediately.
I am not familiar with Mike Savage though his comments regarding Catholics were ignorant not racist. (Catholicim is not a race.) He certainly does not know jack about Catholic Social Teaching but as you know I consider religion fair game as long as its broached honestly and intelligently.
I have already agreed that a small minority on both sides are motivated by racism. Even if both Savage and Rush are racist that does not mean the majority of his listeners are. That would be like saying Ellen and Rosies' audiance are all lesbians. PLEZZZZ.
In addition I might add that making racists Jesse Jackson and Ray Nagin the representatives of the Democratic party would not be fair either.
"You are not implying the US should apply a military solution (as opposed to a diplomatic one) to its immigration problem with Mexico, are you?"
Diplomacy has achieved nothing in this regard but the military option is not what I had in mind. Rather I advocate sealing the border using whatever resources we have at our disposal.
"The people who argue for a reduction in number of immigrants from LatinAmerican countries do so precisely to preserve people from Hispanic descent at a minimum. Again, it’s talk with racial undertones."
I think you assume too much. I might agree that here is an undertone of cultural elitism but that is a far cry from racism.
See http://www.success-and-culture.net/articles/cult.shtml
Finally
"And Hispanics do assimilate, to insist otherwise is to ignore reality"
I agree and I think this is a valid argument which must be addressed.
April 17th, 2006 at 8:35 pmYou are aware, are you not, that the term ‘WASP†is derogatory and some would say RACIST?
Comment by troll — April 17, 2006 @ 8:35 pm
Sometimes, but I didn't use it that way. Rather, in this sense:
WASP1 or Wasp (wÅsp, wôsp) pronunciation
n.
1. A white Protestant of Anglo-Saxon ancestry.
2. A white, usually Protestant member of the American upper social class.
(My emphasis)
Do you deny that some mexican immigrants desire to take back the South West and reunite it to mexico?
I was faintly aware of that fringe group Mighty Aphrodite mentioned the other day... Aztlan something or other...
Rush limbaugh has a three hour a day five day a week show and is held to an incredibly high standard(...)
We will have to disagree on this one, but the point is that he already said it. It was not the only one either; I left this quote out of my previous post:
So invasive species like mollusks and spermatozoa are not good, and we've got a federal judge say, "You can't bring it in here," but invasive species in the form of illegal immigration is fine and dandy -- bring 'em on, as many as possible, legalize them wherever we can, wherever they go, no matter what they clog up.
Limbaugh called illegal immigrants an "invasive species"
With talk like that on a nationally syndicated show, it is difficult to see how the talk on immigration is not about race.
I am not familiar with Mike Savage though his comments regarding Catholics were ignorant not racist. (Catholicim is not a race.)
I am fully aware Catholicism is a Christian denomination. However, you completely missed the racial talk: "they cannot get parishioners anymore amongst educated white people who have caught onto the racket and instead they need to import dummies to sit in the church pews". The comment was both ignorant and racist. The talk about Catholic "pigs" was absolutely out of line and unacceptable -it was a double put down because most Latino immigrants are Catholic.
I might agree that here is an undertone of cultural elitism but that is a far cry from racism.
I didn't mention it, but it is true. There are "conservative" visitors to this blog who not only use racial slurs when talking about Hispanics , but also mention LatinAmerican cultures in a derisive way.
I almost forgot: I wasn't framing the immigration issue in a Republican vs Democrat way. What I am saying is this: It is shameful that to advocate either position, people have to resort to a racial rhetoric, whether it's mean-spirited or well-intentioned. Conservative proponents of harsh measures have been very vocal in their use of fear tactics to oppose immigration, when really it is all about upholding the law.
April 18th, 2006 at 1:19 amGregor,
I reside in CT just outside Hartford and grew up in Worcester, MA. I forgot that earlier.
You wrote"What I am saying is this: It is shameful that to advocate either position, people have to resort to a racial rhetoric, whether it’s mean-spirited or well-intentioned. "
But Gregor you resorted to the use of a racially charged term (WASP). I believe you did not intend to offend and I gave you the benifit of the doubt. We all must stop being so sensitive because most people regardless of their political perspective are not racist. At least not deliberately. If some dipshits go there shame on them. Let US of good will engage each other in productive dialoge. I am critical of TP for this reason. It seems they are more interested in stirring the waters than enlightening. Progress can be made through building bridges not starting wars. Bush is criticized for his heavy handedness but its not like TP is treading lightly to build concensous. We all F up could the editors of TP withstand the scrutiny they hold Rpub polls and pundits to. I doubt it. But they hide in the shadows and lobb ideological bombs. I dont see them representing or promoting "progress" .
Many here on this blog represent the extreme of liberalism. Fanaticism on both sides must be avoided or there will be no progress.
"There are “conservative†visitors to this blog who not only use racial slurs when talking about Hispanics , but also mention LatinAmerican cultures in a derisive way."
IRI, if he is conservative, does not represent most consevatives and I think you are aware that there are many children like Rainman who just get some kick out of anonymously posting outrageous things and you have to take it with a grain of salt.
I have to tell you as a young man I spent much time at latino clubs and hanging with other minorities and honestly they were 100 times more racist than any white guys I grew up with. The Blacks and Hispanics hate each other and both hate the whites. Listen to the dishonorable louy Faracon, or (chocolate New Orleans) Nagin or (hymietown) Jackson these are the racist pigs of America today. But instead of being shund as they should be, they are exaulted by Black America and the MSM. But let a conservtive utter even a remotely off color remark and they are done. Its a double standard which will in the end cause white America to return to its racist ways.
I still dont see Rushs' statement as racist he is refering to all illegal immigrants some of whom are white. But it does demonstrate how quick we are to find the racism. Why? So that the label can be used to discredit his positions on anything.
The same with Savage just using the term "white" does not imply racism, (although he may be I don't know) You used the term white above, are you racist?
People who find racism in every comment are as misguided as the fundementalist who find God in toast. Its ridiculous and we all need to chill out and grow some skin.
Finally,
"Conservative proponents of harsh measures have been very vocal in their use of fear tactics..."
The race card is the ultimate fear tactic.
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