Jonah Goldberg: Concerns About Climate Change Are ‘Millenarian Battiness’
Jonah Goldberg: Concerns About Climate Change Are ‘Millenarian Battiness’
In today’s LA Times, columnist Jonah Goldberg – following George Will’s lead – argues that global warming may not be a problem (or even exist). Goldberg writes that “we don’t have a clear picture of what’s happening now, never mind what will happen.” He calls concern about climate change “millenarian battiness.”
Here is the only “evidence” Goldberg provides to support his contention that the science of climate change is in dispute:
But it’s also true that we don’t have a clear picture of what’s happening now, never mind what will happen. Just ask the 60 climatologists from around the world who wrote Canada’s prime minister that “observational evidence does not support today’s computer climate models, so there is little reason to trust model predictions of the future.”
The letter by a dwindling club of “climate skeptics” is misleading and not supported by scientific evidence. A subsequent letter from “climate science leaders from the academic, public and private sectors across Canada” to the prime minister corrects the record. That letter states that since 2001, advances in climate science provided “confirmation that warming of the atmosphere near the surface is consistent with the projections of climate models.”
To the extent “observational evidence” is different from “climate models” it shows that global warming is happening faster. Specifically, scientific analyses conducted since 2001 suggest “climate may be more sensitive to additional greenhouse gases than previously determined.”
The big difference between the letter Goldberg references and the letter sent in response is that the latter contains scientific support for its claims. (There are no peer-reviewed studies that support the skeptics.)
For Goldberg, none of this may matter. Goldberg believes that even if climate change is real, it may be a good thing. He argues that “a one- or two-degree-per-century rise in average global temperatures” will have “some pleasant consequences.”
Happy Earth Day Mr. Goldberg!
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“For Goldberg, none of this may matter. Goldberg believes that even if climate change is real, it may be a good thing. He argues that “a one- or two-degree-per-century rise in average global temperatures†will have “some pleasant consequences.â€
Put another shrimp on the planet.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:03 pmClimate change a good thing???
It just amazes me how people can be so ignorant…
April 21st, 2006 at 3:07 pmSeems like the info came from White House situational Science Advisor Dr. Nathan Null. Thanks G. Tradeau.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:10 pmThink of all the new beaches that will be created when places like Miami and Manhattan are reclaimed by the ocean! It’s a budding real-estate tycoon’s wet dream!
April 21st, 2006 at 3:13 pm“Happy Earth Day Mr. Goldberg!”
I’m all about Earth First, we can pave the other planets later.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:15 pmThe Doughy Pantload speaks. Why bother listening or reading?
April 21st, 2006 at 3:17 pmadditional link
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1145483415773
Scientists urge PM to set strategy on climate change
Apr. 20, 2006. 01:00 AM
OTTAWA—A group of top Canadian climate scientists and oceanographers is calling on Prime Minister Stephen Harper to develop a national strategy on climate change.
The 90 researchers sent a letter to Harper yesterday in support of international studies that highlight the role of humans in global warming and the need for action.
Harper has said repeatedly that Canada can’t meet its commitments under the Kyoto climate-change protocol and will instead come up with a “made-in-Canada” plan to cut pollution and greenhouse gases.
The letter cites several examples of warming, such as the rapid rise in Arctic temperatures. It warns that climate change could result in more extreme weather, water shortages for farming and hydro-electric projects, insect infestations and forest fires. “We urge you and your government to develop an effective national strategy to deal with the many important aspects of climate that will affect both Canada and the rest of the world in the near future,” the letter states.
“We believe that sound policy requires good scientific input.”
Spokesman Gordon McBean, a professor at the University of Western Ontario, said there’s an “increasing urgency to act on the threat of climate change.”
The letter states:
There will be increasing impact on Canada’s ecosystems and socio-economic activities.
Advances in climate science have provided more evidence supporting the need for action.
Canada needs a national climate-change strategy with continued investments in research to track the rate and nature of changes.
Environment Minister Rona Ambrose said this month that the Kyoto targets — cutting emissions six per cent below 1990 levels by 2012 — are “impossible” to meet and Canada must set more realistic goals.
Last week, Natural Resources Minister Gary Lunn issued a news release saying 15 climate programs were being eliminated because they had run their course.
Media reports said the Conservatives plan to cut 80 per cent of Environment Canada programs aimed at curbing global warming, and slash climate-change budgets in other government departments by 40 per cent.
Canadian Press
April 21st, 2006 at 3:19 pmYeah, just like the Dust Bowl brought some pleasant consequences.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:20 pmI’m telling you guys, homo sapiens sapiens is branching into two new species – those who use their grey matter for thought, logic and reason, and those who use it for a door stop. Jonah Goldbreg is a prime example of this new branch in our evolution.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:22 pmJonah must be assuming that he will be welcomed into the high security biospheres of the extraordinarily wealthy as the earth’s ecosystem becomes unsustainable for human habitation. Unfortunately he is just another pawn in their game and as such will be suffering like the rest of the planet’s species. Karma has a way of doing that.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:23 pmMaybe Jonah wants Scottie’s old gig? Hmmm… ?
April 21st, 2006 at 3:23 pmAnd the LA Times thinks this guy is gonna ADD to their bottom line?
(How many people buy the LA Times for Jonah)-(ow many people STOPPED buying the LA Times because of Jonah)= (Publisher wondering where all the money went)
Gotta wonder which energy stocks he & his awful mother have in their portfolio.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:26 pmDoes Goldberg care to contemplate a spree of more and bigger and better hurricanes. Just a little bit warmer ocean temperatures can create much more powerful hurricanes. Why last year’s hurricane season could be completely eclipsed in the future.
Where does Goldberg live? I hope its on the Gulf Coast.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:26 pmAny thing we can currently do to combat global warming will only slow it down, not stop it, and it will anger business people through out the world, so we shouldn’t do it. It’s not worth the political cost.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:31 pmAnybody researching ocean salt levels and possible changes to already present bacteria and parasites that could benefit from those changes and kill off the entire ocean eco-system? Just think of the smell if 80% of the sea life dies in, oh let’s be generous, in a month’s time? I suspect it will be passed off as “an isolated incident” and if the gulf stream shuts down and all of the northern hemisphere freezes we can just all open ski shops right?
Sort of makes the worry over the war seem shallow and meaningless huh?
These nit wits do know the planet has satelites taking photos right? Ice cores? Tree rings? Ship captain’s logs for hundreads of years to reference changes? Actual science in actual real research centers and all that right?
Oh, I fogot the captain of a whaling ship from 1893 had an “agenda” when he noted ice free dates and snow lines in there, just planting lies for the lefties huh?
The major fish crops that are vanishing, those are just hiding right? Gonna pop out after the ‘06 elelctions and yell “Surprise surpirse” like Gomer Pile?
Oh, forgot; Gomer’s in the Whitehouse, drinking.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:33 pmAnybody researching ocean salt levels and possible changes to already present bacteria and parasites that could benefit from those changes and kill off the entire ocean eco-system? Just think of the smell if 80% of the sea life dies in, oh let’s be generous, in a month’s time? I suspect it will be passed off as “an isolated incident” and if the gulf stream shuts down and all of the northern hemisphere freezes we can just all open ski shops right?
Sort of makes the worry over the war seem shallow and meaningless huh?
These nit wits do know the planet has satelites taking photos right? Ice cores? Tree rings? Ship captain’s logs for hundreads of years to reference changes? Actual science in actual real research centers and all that right?
Oh, I forgot the captain of a whaling ship from 1893 had an “agenda” when he noted ice free dates and snow lines in there, just planting lies for the lefties huh?
The major fish crops that are vanishing, those are just hiding right? Gonna pop out after the ‘06 elelctions and yell “Surprise surpirse” like Gomer Pile?
Oh, forgot; Gomer’s in the Whitehouse, drinking.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:33 pmSquegee,
the people should govern, not the corporations. I could care less if haliburton, or exxon is angry because I want them to produce products that pollute less. Companies can adapt and change.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:34 pmMy Friday Rant:
“What an F-in’ A-hole!”
April 21st, 2006 at 3:35 pmAny thing we can currently do to combat global warming will only slow it down, not stop it, and it will anger business people through out the world, so we shouldn’t do it. It’s not worth the political cost.
Comment by squegeeboo — April 21, 2006 @ 3:31 pm
You forgot to add the “Glub, Glub, Glub . . .”
April 21st, 2006 at 3:35 pm#17 krazny
unless you represent a substancial cost to their bottom line, or a substancial portion of their stock holders they could care less if your angry at them for not polluting less.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:37 pmFrodo rocks the shiz-nit!
April 21st, 2006 at 3:38 pmAren’t his 15 minutes up?
April 21st, 2006 at 3:38 pmAny thing we can currently do to combat global warming will only slow it down, not stop it, and it will anger business people through out the world, so we shouldn’t do it. It’s not worth the political cost.
Comment by squegeeboo — April 21, 2006 @ 3:31 pm
Spoken like a true right-winger. Politics and corporate interests always come first. Screw the planet and all the people that live on it, right?
April 21st, 2006 at 3:44 pmif there is global warming the hurricane season in america will prove it this year , just hoping its bad for america makes me want to get a 4×4 and light needless coal fires so you bastards get it
April 21st, 2006 at 3:46 pm#23, you beat me.
Squegeeboo, if the suits’ actions wind up killing all their customers, who are they gonna rip off?
Or will they simply buy new planets and have them terraformed at that point?
April 21st, 2006 at 3:49 pmSquegee,
I realize, that as a consumer my options as far as controlling or altering behavioral patterns of large corporations is pretty limited. The best option to get a company to change, is to get enough people to not buy their products that they have no choice but to change. Companies will always listen to the bottom dollar.
I was really trying more for a statement, that we are supposed to be a government by the people for the people. Not by the companies for the companies. In my opinion special interests of all sorts from trade unions to exxon have taken over our government. A good expample would be the WTO. The WTO essentially allows for a corporation through their government to overturn any trade laws or sanctions of a foriegn government. do you realize that since the inception of WTO, the IMF, and the World Bank that poverty has increased in 3rd world countries?
I realize of course that for our society to work, we need to have a healthy economy. And in order or that economy to work, we go to work earn our paychecks, buy, good and services which pay someone elses paycheck, so they can also buy goods and services, etc… I just think that we need to have better checks and balances. the voice of the average citizen is drowned out by money. A good example would be Ted Stevens (R) alaska refusing to place under oath the oil company executives during the first round of congressional hearings. Why would he fight agianst it? What possible motive would he have to stop them from being under oath? How does that serve the american public?
April 21st, 2006 at 3:50 pm#23
Politics and corporate interests always come first. Screw the planet and all the people that live on it, right?
Its not a corporate interest to see the coast lines destroyed, it would screw up their market and drop sales rates, hurting the bottom line.
You guys don’t seem that concered about Iran getting Nukes, even use the same argument I used above, how is the possible adverse affects of Global Warming any worse then the possible adverse effects of Iran starting a nuclear war?
April 21st, 2006 at 3:50 pmunless you represent a substancial cost to their bottom line, or a substancial portion of their stock holders they could care less if your angry at them for not polluting less.
Comment by squegeeboo — April 21, 2006 @ 3:37
The melting caps couldn’t care less about this debate; they just keep melting. But console yourself with your business-friendly attitude as they cancel your house insurance for being in a newly-formed red-line district; one made for those living in the new flood- and hurricane-prone areas (namely the eastern seaboard). Glub, glub, glub . . .
April 21st, 2006 at 3:51 pmOr will they simply buy new planets and have them terraformed at that point?
Comment by Glenn Becker — April 21, 2006 @ 3:49 pm
They have their eye on colonizing the Moon and Mars. And I’m dead serious. It’s why they are spending billions looking for water in both places. The neo-cons won’t be happy until they’ve filled the universe with people for them to rule…
April 21st, 2006 at 3:52 pm[...] Update: ThinkProgress picks up on the part about Global Warming having some pleasant consequences. [...]
April 21st, 2006 at 3:53 pmOh snap Frodo!
Any “skeptics” left are completely insane if they believe the lies they’re telling themselves about global warming.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:53 pmTom,
Why do Republicans hate America and the Earth?
April 21st, 2006 at 3:53 pm#26 “WTO, the IMF, and the World Bank that poverty has increased in 3rd world countries?”
Sure I do, its because they’ve thrown off their imperial ‘opressors’ and replaced them with people with out any real knowledge of how to manage a country. Add in leftist groups feeling sorry for them, so they keep on tossing them money/food with out forcing them to improve, and then rightist(?) groups having to equal it so they don’t go over to socialism, and what do you expect? They get sucked into a culture of dependence just like the majority of people on welfare in America.
I did get what you meant, it was just to easy to swap those 3 words and twist it right around :)
April 21st, 2006 at 3:55 pmSure the climate models are probably wrong. And sure you’d be a fool to ignore them. The tell us what might happen in the estimation of clever people who’ve studied the issue for years, which is more than any of the climate change skeptics appear to have done. If Goldberg thinks it’s a waste of time trying to anticipate the future he should climb to the roof of a tall building, close his eyes and walk about a bit.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:56 pmThey’ve been staging Mars Habitat Design Competitions for architects and engineers for years. Here’s one:
Building upon concepts and designs from the past several decades,
the Mars HomesteadTM Project, the main project of the Mars FoundationTM,
seeks to develop a unified plan for building the first habitat on Mars by exploiting local materials. The ultimate goal of the project is to build a growing, permanent settlement beyond the Earth, thus allowing civilization to spread beyond the limits of our small planet.
http://www.marshome.org/
April 21st, 2006 at 3:57 pmGlenn
“Or will they simply buy new planets and have them terraformed at that point?”
I covered that in my first post, #5, Earth first, pave the other planets later.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:57 pm#36, squegeeboo,
I hope your tongue is in your cheek. If not, then I have misread you here and elsewhere.
April 21st, 2006 at 4:03 pm– Dr. Roy Spencer, Meteorologist, University of Alabama in Huntsville
April 21st, 2006 at 4:03 pmEven the Queeen of Englan gets it about Climate change. Our corporate dictatorship continues to be an obstacle and will continue to be one.
The evidence is in. Our American Experiment has become a disasterous failure. I think its time we Undeclare our Independence and join the civilized world.
April 21st, 2006 at 4:03 pmNo one that ill-informed and/or deceitful should be writing for any reputable paper, period.
April 21st, 2006 at 4:06 pmSqeegio, time to put down the crack pipe, or is it Rush’s brand of oxys. Where in the constitution does it say we the corporations?
Also the ones talking about nuking was not iraq, but the bushco administration. Guess they think if we cause a nuclear winter, it will offset global warming, huh?
April 21st, 2006 at 4:09 pmIf Mr. Goldberg would spend just one summer in Mississippi without an air conditioner, he would fight any warming trend, anywhere, for any reason. Mr. Goldberg lives in a climate controlled world where his personal needs are provided by others and any and all climate conditions outside of his cubicle or condominium are irrelevant to him.
April 21st, 2006 at 4:11 pmJust in time for Earth Day, a Texas organization has awarded Congressman Joe Barton the first annual Earth Killer award.
April 21st, 2006 at 4:11 pmSomeone has to tell this guy that even Bush has acknowledged that global warming IS real and that it’s a problem. If idiots like Golberg and Will keep lying even after that, they REALLY discredit themselves.
April 21st, 2006 at 4:12 pmhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37232-2004Aug26.html
Get with the times man!
#37 – It’s easy to misread Squeegy. He’d rather be out throwing a frisbee, and has his own brand of logic — and humor.
April 21st, 2006 at 4:16 pmYou guys don’t seem that concered about Iran getting Nukes, even use the same argument I used above, how is the possible adverse affects of Global Warming any worse then the possible adverse effects of Iran starting a nuclear war?
Comment by squegeeboo — April 21, 2006 @ 3:50 pm
By the same token, how is the possible adverse effects of a nuclear war between the US and Iran any worse than the possible adverse effects of North Korea starting a nuclear war?
Why don’t you guys seem that concerned about North Korea. They’ve already got nuclear weapons.
April 21st, 2006 at 4:19 pmMaybe it’s just me, but what the f*ck is “millenarian battiness?” What century is Goldberg living in?
April 21st, 2006 at 4:19 pmWhat century is Goldberg living in?
Comment by Zookeeper — April 21, 2006 @ 4:19 pm
He sounds a lot like Mighty Medusa, doesn’t he? Hmmmm…. maybe you’re on to something here…
April 21st, 2006 at 4:21 pmYOU GOTTA HEAR THIS!
April 21st, 2006 at 4:22 pmjust heard on randi rhodes show – earlier this week she interviewed the psy.doc. (franks) who wrote a book – bush on the couch (?) – VERY INTERESTING – she will play parts of that interview in “hour 3″ of her show – coming up soon – her show runs 3-7eastern time…
sorry i’ll miss it today, but i heard the original and it was enlightening, to say the least…
yep, bush is psycho – you’ll find out why!
gotta go – have a great weekend all!
Ignorance beyond comprehension.
In a few centuries, humanity will have great difficulty living on this planet, thanks to us.
April 21st, 2006 at 4:26 pm#37 Glenn
“I hope your tongue is in your cheek. If not, then I have misread you here and elsewhere.”
My tounge is in my mouth next to my cheek, but not actually in the cheek itself, that would be a nasty speech impediment, hope that helps to explain my position.
#46 We are concerned that N. Korea has nukes, however they already have them, and could use them against S. Korea, Japan, Possibly our west coast, Austrilia, etc, etc, etc. if we were to attack them, so that option is pretty much gone, except in extreme circumstances, which weakens our diplomatic position extremly becuase they know their safe from a US attack.
Iran dosn’t have nukes yet, so we don’t need to worry about a similiar nuclear situation, however if we allow them to get nukes, they would have the same saftey blanket that N. Korea has and it would make them even harder to deal with diplomatically then they are now.
Hope that explains the real politik view of the situation.
April 21st, 2006 at 4:29 pmI’m particularly offended by the “millenarian madness” comment, seeing as how Goldberg writes to the same audience that predomonantly (a) thinks Jesus is gonna come disappear them to heaven any minute now, and (b) freaked out thinking y2k was gonig to end civilization.
Hey, Pot, my name’s Kettle.
April 21st, 2006 at 4:32 pmMr. Pantload-
If you’re right, our sin is making the world a better place to live in for future generations.
If you’re wrong, you are aiding and abetting the forces of anti-science to promote your political agenda at the impending destruction of our planet.
How much did Mommy and the RNC have to pay the LA Times to let you write your nonsense? You couldn’t be a better example of a political welfare recipient – undeserving of your unearned position to provide uninformed opinion.
April 21st, 2006 at 4:58 pmThis is another one of those issues that are not “Left” vs “Right”, unless you buy into the White House spin:
Regardless of what happens in Washington, D.C., state and local governments across America are aggressively confronting the problem. Two hundred and eight mayors have committed their cities to meet or exceed the emissions reductions mandated by the Kyoto Protocol, and some have gone further. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has committed California to 30 percent cuts by 2020.(…)
At the same time, investors and others worried about global warming are pressuring corporations and Wall Street to take the problem seriously. The Investor Network on Climate Risk, a coalition of pension-fund managers and institutional investors representing $3 trillion in assets, has put corporations on notice that its members will reconsider investing in companies that don’t pay enough attention to climate change. In 2005, investment-banking giant Goldman Sachs pledged to embrace carbon trading and invest $1 billion in renewable energy.
While Washington Slept – The Queen of England is afraid. International C.E.O.’s are nervous. And the scientific establishment is loud and clear. If global warming isn’t halted, rising sea levels could submerge coastal cities by 2100. So how did this virtual certainty get labeled a “liberal hoax”?
Paying attention to global warming, climate change is not “Millenarian Battiness”. The evidence for it is compelling, and it simply makes business sense to implement policies and business practices to curb greenhouse gas emissions.
April 21st, 2006 at 5:14 pmWhen the earth is burning then maybe these people will believe that G.warming is a real threat to us as humans,to animals and to this planet. Until then big oil controls their thought processes.
April 21st, 2006 at 5:15 pmWhen will the scienists kick these assholes in the ass stop their uninformed opinions being spread as experts on global warming?
April 21st, 2006 at 5:20 pmWhy do they hate God’s planet?
April 21st, 2006 at 5:28 pmThere is no evidence of a direct correlation between greenhouse emissions and global climate fluctuations. Global climate conditions have fluctuated for centuries, and were much cooler 100 years ago, when pollution was much worse. Moreover there is no evidence that changes in global climate conditions would be affected even by the complete shutting down of the American economy.
If you disagree, please take your complaints where they will do some good – to polluting nations in the developing world, like China and India. After you demonstrate that shutting down their economies helps to improve global climate conditions, I’ll be willing to listen to you. Not before.
April 21st, 2006 at 5:43 pmWhen the earth is burning and life is choked out of it, they will call it God’s plan and take comfort in their belief in an afterlife.
Some people you just won’t convince. Ever.
April 21st, 2006 at 5:45 pmClearly he didn’t see last Sunday’s NOVA about GLOBAL DIMMING.
Turns out that there is now TEN PERCENT LESS SUNLIGHT reaching the earth, a fact that has been DIRECTLY tied to the massive Ethiopian famine of the 1980s.
Seems that with so much microscopic soot in our skies, clouds are now full of TINY raindrops (much smaller and more prevalent than in pre-Industrial clouds). The effect is a considerable increase in ALBEDO, the light reflected back into space from the clouds.
Scientists, who confirmed this only two or three years ago with the orbiting of a new weather sat by NASA, say that the Global Dimming is actually making Global Warming less extreme, suggesting that if we clean the air of soot, we will actually find that the warming curve is FAR WORSE than the projections ever stated. The data has been skewed by this previously unknown factor.
Scientists who discovered this say that there could be as much as TWENTY FIVE METERS of oceanic rise in the next 100 years, not the earlier predictions of a few meters.
NYC and all of Florida disappear into the ocean.
April 21st, 2006 at 5:46 pmBSR, you don’t even know that greenhouse gas levels were lower 100 years ago. As for “shutting down economies” that is nothing but chicken little hysterics. But please, keep it up. Those of us who are investing in cleaner more efficient technologies will have the advantage, while you with the gas guzzlers will be bankrupting yourselves, and convincing voters that you should never be put in charge again. Ask Toyota whether investing in efficiency has wrecked their business. Ask GM if their Hummers are giving them an edge in this changing economy.
April 21st, 2006 at 5:49 pm“There is no evidence of a direct correlation between greenhouse emissions and global climate fluctuations.” Blue-state red
NONSENSE. The chief at NASA doesn’t agree with you. Neither do 99.999% of all climate scientists.
The Greenhouse theory is now very well attested. You’ve been buying lies, as usual.
April 21st, 2006 at 5:50 pmLet me repeat my quote of Ronald Reagan in a different context: “It’s not that our liberal friends are ignorant. It’s just that they know so much that isn’t so.”
Nowhere is the truth of this remark more evident than in the Left’s belief in pseudoscientific myths about things like global warming and second hand smoke. Like Judd, Nico, and the others who run this site, many of these folks are 20-to-30 somethings with few if any children, who think they know more than the rest of us. They also harbor a deep-seated belief that the purpose of government is to run everyone’s lives according to the needs of the lowest common denominator in society, no matter how much achievement we discourage, and no matter how many freedoms we quash.
Thank God these folks don’t know how to win elections. Heaven help us if they ever do.
April 21st, 2006 at 5:51 pmMore links to show this is not a “Left” vs “Right” issue:
Despite opposition from some of their colleagues, 86 evangelical Christian leaders have decided to back a major initiative to fight global warming, saying “millions of people could die in this century because of climate change, most of them our poorest global neighbors.”
April 21st, 2006 at 5:52 pmAmong signers of the statement, which will be released in Washington on Wednesday, are the presidents of 39 evangelical colleges, leaders of aid groups and churches, like the Salvation Army, and pastors of megachurches, including Rick Warren, author of the best seller “The Purpose-Driven Life.”
“For most of us, until recently this has not been treated as a pressing issue or major priority,” the statement said. “Indeed, many of us have required considerable convincing before becoming persuaded that climate change is a real problem and that it ought to matter to us as Christians. But now we have seen and heard enough.”
Evangelical Leaders Join Global Warming Initiative
Global dimming is the source of George Will’s specious claim that scientists were warning us about global cooling in the 1970s. Of course, he only ever cites a Newsweek article which badly misrepresented its peer-reviewed source.
Global dimming one of many factors. How these factors balance out (or not) determines our future situation. And don’t let anyone act like 100 years from now is that far away. The Great San Fancisco Earthquake was 100 years ago.
April 21st, 2006 at 5:54 pm#63 Is this the same Ronald Reagan who sold weapons to Saddam, the Taliban, and Iranian Hizbollah?
The same Ronald Reagan who had a computer on his desk for 8 years and never once turned it on?
THAT’s your source of scientific knowledge?
April 21st, 2006 at 5:56 pmDon’t forget, BSR, when it came to Iraq, Bush and his 60 million supporters knew an awful lot that turned out to be 100% false.
April 21st, 2006 at 5:58 pmOn the evidence for global warming:
Global warming is a term used to describe the trend of increases in the average temperature of the Earth’s atmosphere and oceans that has been observed in recent decades. The scientific opinion on climate change, as expressed in the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) Third Assessment Report in 2001 and explicitly endorsed by the national science academies of the G8 nations in 2005, is that the average global temperature has risen 0.6 ± 0.2 °C since the late 19th century, and that it is likely that “most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities” [1]. The increased volumes of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases released by the burning of fossil fuels, land clearing and agriculture, and other human activities, are the primary sources of the human-induced component of warming.
April 21st, 2006 at 6:00 pmWikipedia: Global warming
“And the LA Times thinks this guy is gonna ADD to their bottom line?” — kindness
The LA Times was bought by the rightwing Chicago Tribune in 2000, SPECIFICALLY to shovel rightwing sh*t on our heads.
Subscriptions have fallen below 1 million, and the Trib has apparently discussed dumping the paper. They fired their publisher, and replaced him with an even more rightwing one, apparently, tied to the firing of Robert Scheer, the most popular (and most liberal) columnist in the paper, in favor of Moon employee Tony Snow. Wow, that’s some tasty cardboard.
Down with the Chicago LA Times.
April 21st, 2006 at 6:07 pmI think it’s important to remind conservatives that it was liberals who argued in the past that:
a) We should raise auto efficiency standards to keep our demand and the price of gas low
b) Mr Reagan, don’t arm Saddam
While conservatives argued:
April 21st, 2006 at 6:07 pma) Let’s all drive gas guzzlers and let the market value of gasoline decide. If gas becomes too expensive, it will become economic to buy smaller cars.
b) Anyone who doesn’t want to sell arms to Saddam is a hand-wringing liberal
“Thank God these folks don’t know how to win elections. Heaven help us if they ever do.” — Blue State Red
The rightwing has stolen every major election since 1999. WE HAVE CAUGHT THEM DOING IT.
In 2004, Alaskan voters turned out — all of them — TWICE. 200% voting rate is AMAZING.
In 2004, Ohio was paid $125,000 for a court-ordered recount, which Bush’s campaign chair refused to give us. Then we got affidavits from election officials that Triad Systems had replaced circuit boards in tabulators to be recounted, and supplied false numbers to be reported — all felonies. DoJ refused to investigate; Bush Campaign Chair Katherine Blackwell refused the legal command for the required recount, and Rubberstamp Bush was back in business.
You don’t WIN elections — you STEAL them.
April 21st, 2006 at 6:13 pm*Please make a note of it.*
Quash that dissent! Yeah! Beat it to a pulp! Anyone who disagrees with you, beat them into the ground! That’s it! Keep hitting! MWahahahahaha!
:P
April 21st, 2006 at 6:28 pmI wrote, “in favor of Moon employee Tony Snow”
The added columnist was Tony Blankley, not Snow.
Sorry for the error.
April 21st, 2006 at 6:30 pmThe problem is that many will look at these two letters and come to the conclusion that there’s still a lot of debate in the scientific community on this issue. Just ain’t so folks.
I fear that we will need to see Manhattan underwater before any significant steps are taken by the US.
April 21st, 2006 at 6:34 pmPaul,
I think Kenneth Blackwell was in Ohio, unless you meant to add him and Katherine Harris together. Harris was responsible for the shit storm in Florida in 2000.
April 21st, 2006 at 6:58 pmConsensus! Consensus! Shhhhhh! Shut up! Lalalalala. Lalalala. I can’t hear you! CONSENSUS!
Yeah, good job guys. Meanwhile, the rest of us with brains know that there IS debate about how much human activity is warming the Earth, if at all.
Or would any of you like to go up against Dr. Gray of the University of Colorado who has been studying the atmosphere for decades and decades? Come on. Accuse him of being an oil company stooge, an old man, anything you can. You must discredit him and silence him in some way.
After you do that, I have a list of other scientists who you’ll want to lynch and hang by their spines. Dissent must be quashed at all costs.
Oh, and by the way, Al Gore has a groovy new movie coming out that is totally truthful and all that. Yup. Not fear-mongering at all. Nope. Never. It’s Al Gore. The man is a saint.
Later kids.
April 21st, 2006 at 7:11 pmOkay I give up, who is the milennian Group? These Mcarthyites like Goldberg ALWAYS attack someone or something..The Battiness is once again meant to distract from the issue. Umm Why Exactly Should I care What Jonah Writes? Most of, if not all, is the same baseless rhetoric for the past forty years. I fail to see anythng new or astounding in what Jonah Writes, As TP notes, he just follows the leader, and their are already plenty of Limbettes running around. A Columnist? [Laugh here]
Jonah Grow something. Anything. See those spindly things bebeath your chair Jonah? Thats Lucky Legs. Why Lucky? Because as Pathetic and Weak as YOU Are, you are lucky they don’t break off and stick up your Hasmemite ASS.
April 21st, 2006 at 7:38 pmNothing to see here folks. Just the usual right wing childish rants, name calling, and hey look over here distractions. Real climate research is a fascinating and evolving science. One we cannot afford to ignore. And it has nothing to do with what the right wingers call “debate.”
They really can’t resist belittling Al Gore, can they? They must think they’re really smart. Or something.
It takes some cajones to say addressing the problem will wreck the economy, and then accuse the other side of fear mongering.
So let them call us whatever we want. If you want to make a difference, it will be at the state and local level. Substitute fossil fuels, fund research, encourage science and math in our youth. Let the Republicans drive gas guzzlers and teach their kids that science is for godless liberals. They’re already hurting for their mistakes.
April 21st, 2006 at 7:45 pmIf Jonah Doesnt care about the Weather, then why does he care what the Millenarian thinks? I wouldn’t listen to a Damn thing that Windbag says, hes just creating a new for himself.
Hey Jonah Go get your Qubbalah and create some Talismans and put a spell on the ‘Liberals’ with your Moon Bat Shamanist Friends, perhaps the Space Ship will come back to get you moronic Edomites and lead you 200 Year old Bull crap artist Idiots astray for 40 years.
April 21st, 2006 at 7:45 pmATTENTION people of the world
a 3 degree change in climatic tempatures will render 15% of our curent land from poductive to unhabitable. Amoungst other major climatic changes
April 21st, 2006 at 7:52 pm“unless you meant to add him and Katherine Harris together. Harris was responsible for the shit storm in Florida in 2000.” —Krazny
Yep, Krazny, the standard usage has been to replace their first name with ‘Katherine’ to show how they are COMPLICIT IN THE DIEBOLDING OF AMERICA.
In California, ‘Katherine’ McPherson must be removed from office.
VOTE FOR DEBRA BOWEN IN NOVEMBER. As State Senator, Bowen has fought the vote-fraud from the start. We need Debra Bowen as CA Secretary of State.
The CA Dem Party has shot itself in the foot yet again, and endorsed Ortiz, who is a Sacramento Diebolder — probably because of the Latina name.
April 21st, 2006 at 7:52 pm“It takes some cajones to say…” –foxbot
Spelled COJONES.
In Spanish, the ‘ah’ sound is very wide open (CAH-hon-ays), which sounds really weird in Spanish. This is co-hon-ays.
Pinche Bush.
April 21st, 2006 at 7:56 pmJonah Goldberg is a closet queen fairy, so who cares what he thinks or spews! His mom Lucianne turned him into a fat stupid whiney freak! Put him into a mental institution now!
April 21st, 2006 at 8:19 pmfoxbot said: It takes some cajones to say addressing the problem will wreck the economy, and then accuse the other side of fear mongering.
Read me the recent cover of Time magazine. Please. Who’s fear-mongering? Not “us”. That’s for damn sure. See the trailer for Al Gore’s movie? Who’s fear-mongering? Not “us”.
We’re not the ones saying the world is going to end and all our kids are going to die if we don’t stop driving cars. That’s YOU. Al Gore. And all the “consensus” folks.
Meanwhile, there are HONEST scientists who don’t spout off THEORIES as if they are FACTS and make clear that there is UNCERTAINTY about most of this stuff.
I mean, for crying out loud, climate researchers have been completely ignoring the effects of the SUN for all of this time! Only in the last year have there been studies published about the effects of cosmic flux and the Sun on the climate.
The house is about to come tumbling down, Al Gore and the crew know this. That’s why they are screaming loudly as ever, and releasing scare-mongering movies to brainwash the public into believing they are going to drown tomorrow if they don’t go out there and buy a hybrid tomorrow.
April 21st, 2006 at 9:00 pmAs a geologist, I am convinced that there is no such thing as an ideal climate. Indeed, it would be very coincidental if today’s climate happens to be the ideal one for life on earth. Hence, there are bas as well as good effects from climate change but the two will probably balance out. Those scientists who only report or concentrate on the negative aspects of climate change are, by implication, biased in their focus. As soon as someone dares to report a possible benefit from GW that person is immediately branded as right wing. So I can imagine where Goldberg is coming from. I am convinced that if global cooling was being predicted most researcersh would start reporting on all the negative effects from glabal cooling. Admittedly, any change in earth’s condition requires nature to adapt: animals have to mutate, evolve or migrate to more suitable environments and mankind has to learn to cope with changes, be it global warming, global cooling, an unusually high rate of earthquakes, tsunami’s, cyclones, landslides, volcanic eruptions etc.
As a retiree, I have had the time to follow the outcome of GW related research on a daily basis via the internet and only one in a 100 reports would dare conclude that there might be a benefit from GW. This makes me highly suspicious. I am not one of those deniers or sceptics of GW but have a healthy sense of doubt as to the skewed reporting of doom and gloom. I am also very critical of IPCC’s short horizon of 100 years. When we want to learn from history we have no problems looking back to the Romans and the Greeks of 2000 or 3000 years ago, but when we look into the future of our environment – and the effect climate may have on it – we are only looking 100 years ahead rather than thousands of years. The world 25 generations ahead may well be thankful for our CO2 emissions as it may have caused a delay in the onset of the next inter-glacial.
One day (10, 100 or 1000 years from now), Tokyo, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Vancouver and many other cities situated near plate boundaries will be destroyed by 9-on-the-Richter scale earthquakes. Maybe, the Maldives will submerge due to rising sea level and its entire population will have to be relocated. Maybe, Amsterdam (already below sea level) has to be vacated, since the Dutch cannot continue building even higher levees.
It is ludicrous to believe that we can reverse this warming trend by trying – under the Kyoto Protocol – to reduce the CO2 emissions a few percent. The CO2 problem will resolve itself when we run out of fossil fuels in 50 to 100 years time, depending on how China and India continue to develop. The more we consume now, the quicker we will run out of the stuff.
Policy makers have to come up with long term plans, based on the various climate scenarios, how to minimize the effect of possible calamitous events or – on the bright side – how to benefit optimally from any positive effects, rather than having conferences every 5 years or so on how to contain or reduce emissions. The flooding of New Orleans in the wake of hurricane Katrina is a telltale example of bad planning. The money spent on the Iraq war could have paid many times over for the reinforcement of New Orleans’ levees or could pay for other natural disasters in the making. It’s all a matter of priorities, but focusing on the negative effects alone is counterproductive.
And please spare me the gratuitous and cliche allegation that I must be one of those right wing deniers who only thinks of business etc. You only have to read my words carefully to see that I am not.
April 22nd, 2006 at 12:55 ambelieving in global warming is like believing in god
if you believe in god and he doesn’t exist, what have you lost expect a few bucks at the church collection?
if you don’t believe in god and he does exist, you’re screwed
if you believe in global warming and it doesn’t exist, what is the worst thing that can happen?
April 22nd, 2006 at 12:57 amif you don’t believe in global warming and it does exist, well, you know, the earth turns into post-Katrina New Orleans
“And please spare me the gratuitous and cliche allegation that I must be one of those right wing deniers who only thinks of business etc. You only have to read my words carefully to see that I am not.” — Chris Schoneveld\
• So the NOW ESTABLISHED FACT that 10% of the sunlight that used to hit the earth is now reflecting into space doesn’t bother you at all, right?
Trying to blame Al Gore for ‘fearmongering’ shows what a LIAR you are.
I guess you missed Bush and Condi and Dick the Dick doing everything possible to:
1) Rip off every American with fear mongering.
2) Rip off the elderly with fear mongering.
3) Rip off the military with for-profit policies decided in advance.
4) Rip off all Americans by responding to A MULTITUDE OF URGENT WARNINGS with a five-week vacation and then hiding out behind our kids, while failing to alert the airlines AT ALL.
5) Rip off all New Yorkers by announcing that the air was safe to breathe when the EPA knew it wasn’t.
6) Rip off Americans by spreading LIES about found weapons, about proof of weapons, about the threat of terrorism to small towns, about the threat of immigrants, about the threat of Iran but not PAKISTAN his ally, about the threat of disarmed Iraq rather than Saudi Arabia and Israel with 200 nukes — etc.
YOU DON’T NOTICE ANY OF THAT.
It’s not Al Gore who has the problem. Scrape the crap off your eyeballs and have a look at WHAT YOU IGNORE. My listing is impromptu, but I could shovel up a mountain of PROOF that Bush is a criminal. Indeed, why don’t you reposte Conyers’ “Constitution in Crisis” report, which offers you the PROOF and the LAW that the Bushies have broken AT LEAST fifteen major statute laws, and the Constitution, and just about every treaty.
“I’m a geologist.” Well, we certainly know you spend your time with your head in the ground.
April 22nd, 2006 at 1:26 am“releasing scare-mongering movies to brainwash the public into believing they are going to drown tomorrow if they don’t go out there and buy a hybrid tomorrow.” — Seixon
Polarbears are drowning right now.
The Global Warming issue is directly associated with CLEAR environmental threats of cutting down the remaining rainforest, which will remove life from 1,000s of species currently alive in those remaining forests. Where are they to go?
You don’t give a FLYING FK about the environment, and yet you DO CARE about blaming Democrats and scientists who are reading alarming trends OPPOSING FOR-PROFIT CORPORATIONS and their GREED.
With 1,000 of tons of uranium spread out over the Iraq, with the threat to USE nukes — GW Bush and his facile LIARS like you Seixon, are busily destroying our grandchildren’s lives. And you pretend to be sane? YOU’RE UTTERLY SELFISH AND CYNICAL. You support an obvious traitor, and cannot by any stretch of the imagination consider yourself patriotic.
The bastard who averted his eyes to the warnings about Nine-eleven is NOT our chosen deity. He is NOT the ‘decider’ — dictator, except as the rightwing vote-fraud has made be the case, in complete abrogation of the Constitution. You know it, we know it, and HISTORY KNOWS IT.
The only real question is how many more innocent people (including our soldiers) and species can Bush destroy, before justice finds him.
April 22nd, 2006 at 1:35 amGeology and Meteorology are like comparing apples to oranges! Geologic events are not controllable at present, but maybe someday if money was not wasted on military crap, then maybe earthquakes could be modified to cause less damage, or even volcanic eruptions tamed?! As for the weather it can be altered by too much ozone and other gaseous pollutants! Global warming is melting the polar icecaps and raising the sea levels at a dramatic pace, so to do nothing could cause vast areas of our planet to become unlivable! If category 5 hurricanes become the norm, then places like Florida might have to be abandoned completely?!
April 22nd, 2006 at 1:52 amPaul
He isn’t cynical. He is totally, and completely, naive.
April 22nd, 2006 at 2:02 amI mean shit, you just went through 2 record breaking years of hurricanes, one after the other. NO was flooded, large parts of it rendered uninhabitable and you still have these idiots talking about Global Warming as being a myth. It isn’t a myth, it is happening right now.
And Squeegee, while I am on the subject, slowing down climate change would be a good thing, it would give everyone just that little bit more time to develop means of coping when the shit really hits the fan, and the faster the change happens the more damage it is going to cause.
Lastly, climate change is only 1 of the many reasons why we should curb air pollution, or does the rightwing like smell of smog in the morning?
April 22nd, 2006 at 2:10 am“smell of fog” should read “the smell of fog”
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April 22nd, 2006 at 2:35 amCould someone in a less hostile and derogatory manner respond to my arguments that it is quite unlikely that the effects of global warming are all negative?
April 22nd, 2006 at 3:26 am“maybe earthquakes could be modified to cause less damage,” –Jay Randal
Meteorologists commonly agree that the hurricanes on the Gulf coast are as bad as they are as the DIRECT result of the Sahara dessert. The Sahara hasn’t always been a FAILED region. Like the dustbowl, the Sahara could be reclaimed. Further desertification could be ameliorated.
The direct result of this ‘tree-hugging’ in N. Africa would be milder hurricanes in the Gulf coast.
The same goes for the rainforests. We should be expending a great deal of money in aid to prevent that — we could have saved the Amazon basin FOREVER on the money that Bush will throw away on the Oil Wars. We could have prevented famine worldwide on that kind of money, making friends around the world, and ACTUALLY fulfilling Jesus’ mission.
That would ACTUALLY be a ‘war on terror.’ But terror and racism (and fascism) are perennial cohorts. As one of the Horsemen, war is NOT the answer, especially when it is waged in direct opposition to our treaties and Constitution.
April 22nd, 2006 at 4:16 am“Could someone in a less hostile and derogatory manner respond to my arguments that it is quite unlikely that the effects of global warming are all negative?” –Chris Schoneveld
Are the effects of a volcano or an earthquake or a tsunami be “ALL NEGATIVE”?
The complaint is idiotic, Chris. Destruction, especially the ONE-WAY DESTRUCTION OF EXTINCTION is not an issue about whether something is all negative or not. There may well be a positive for killing all the songbirds in the world. After all, you get a few pretty hats out of their dead bodies.
This is further evidence of what the observant RFK Jr. always says: “Republicans treat the world like a business in liquidation.” They don’t want to save it for the future. They want to RAPE IT NOW.
Bush is one of the biggest rapists in history. And facilitators of his crimes are NOT good people.
April 22nd, 2006 at 4:20 am“…particularly large upward excursions during warm El Niño events. Yet, the climate system never spins out of control. – Dr. Roy Spencer, Meteorologist, University of Alabama in Huntsville –Spock
And now we know partly why. The albedo of that water HAS CHANGED. The ’spinning out of control’ is being damped down by 10% of the solar energy reaching the surface of the earth no longer reaching the earth.
That 10% will soak up a lot of fluctuations in the evidence over the last five hundred years.
You CAN solve your financial problems for awhile by getting a new credit card, by reflecting 10% back into ’space’ in further debt, you can last awhile longer. But such consolations are temporary.
We KNOW why the world is warming up, but the ecosystem is also being destroyed, with catastrophic effects on other species. Evern if global warming is milder than scientists now believe, the fact of a mass extinction is upon us just from destruction of habitat, including the Bushovk counting of golf course hazards as ‘wetlands,’ while allowing these CRUCIAL weather buffers to be converted into condos. The math on global warming is buttressed by the math on ecosystem destruction.
Bush has dismantled our nation’s ecological laws. 650 laws have been suspended, by the stroke of Bush’s pen, including the Marine Mammal Protection Act, and the Endangered Species Act. Those well-judged laws are CRUCIAL to the survival of our ecosystems, and their species.
But YOU LOT don’t like court cases — you prefer to act through corruption, coercion, and tyranny. Not hard to see which approach is more American.
April 22nd, 2006 at 4:44 amSubstitute ‘global warming’ with Iraq/Iran having, creating, wanting, selling, using, blah-blah-blah nuclear ‘anything’ , and you have most rational people’s thoughts on the BushCo ‘rationale’ for their “pre-emptive” attacks. And they have been proven all the way wrong on Iraq. So why on EARTH should we believe anything they have to say about Iran? Their eagerness to invade just shows how very far away Iran is from having any sort of nuclear weapon. Just like Iraq. Hey, “Decider”, you need to ‘get back’, Loretta, and check yourself. Being able to ‘decide’ does not mean that you will make a GOOD decision. And we have AMPLE proof of that. So get over yourself, before you TOTALLY F*CK EVERYTHING UP !!!! AGAIN!!!
As for Mr.Goldberg, yeah?!? Go tell it to the Polar Bears. Jerk.
April 22nd, 2006 at 5:12 amCould someone in a less hostile and derogatory manner respond to my arguments that it is quite unlikely that the effects of global warming are all negative?
Your wasting your breath, Chris. This is a site for left wing progolodytes who blame President Bush for everything. “Paul in LA” is one of the more rude examples of this species, but there are others. The tools of their trade are venom and vulgarity, rather than facts.
Don’t ever expect a rational discussion. All you can do with such delusional people is confront them with the truth. You’ll mocked and insulted for your efforts, of course, but the truth is the only antidote for their willful ignorance.
Just our of curiosity, what’s your view of the current state of nuclear power technology?
PS: If “Paul” really is in the City of Angels (as opposed to Lousiana) He needs to sleep in more often.
April 22nd, 2006 at 8:07 amYou’ll mocked and insulted for your efforts,
Thanks for that Blue State Red. I think you hit the nail on the head, but it is so hard to find a place where you can debate intelligently about global warming. A site is either dominated by the extreme left or the extreme right. No site seems to be detached from politics, unfortunately.
April 22nd, 2006 at 9:06 amJust our of curiosity, what’s your view of the current state of nuclear power technology?
I am not an expert, but I can only say that in France, where I live, nuclear power provides 85% of the country’s electricity and it is considered very safe and environmentally friendly. A Chernobyl accident is not possible with current technological safeguards. In Finland they have just commissioned the building of a new reactor. Those Scandinavians are very environmentaly conscious and the storage of waste is well taken care of. The number of deaths in coal mines in one year worldwide is higher than the total of fatalities that can be ascribed to nuclear power (Chernobyl mainly, including cancer cases that are still expected to occur in the coming years).
April 22nd, 2006 at 9:23 amAm I now going to be abused by that guy “Paul” for not condemning nuclear power?
The denial promoted by corporate interests and the Cheney/Bush junta may
April 22nd, 2006 at 9:49 amseal our fate as a species if something is not done soon. Our local paper presents Earth Day as a celbration of the planet devoid of vital information regrding environmental change and even praises Bush for his efforts at conservation.
The denial promoted by corporate interests and the Cheney/Bush junta may
April 22nd, 2006 at 9:49 amseal our fate as a species if something is not done soon. Our local paper presents Earth Day as a celebration of the planet devoid of vital information regarding environmental change and even praises Bush for his efforts at conservation.
Just chalk this up to Jonah’s revenge…
…after years of having his lunch money taken, being given wedgies, dumped in high school toilets, and never having dated…
…Goldberg get’s to lash out with his mouth and his pen, and not have someone kick his punk a*s…
April 22nd, 2006 at 10:09 am#95: “Could someone in a less hostile and derogatory manner respond to my arguments that it is quite unlikely that the effects of global warming are all negative?”
The chemistry of greenhouse gases is well-understood and was in fact predicted in the late 19th century. I take it that you don’t deny the basic fact that the artificial greenhouse effect is real, nor do you deny the fact that even if the natural cycles of Earth’s atmosphere are trending warmer, then it is foolish to “hit the accelerator” by continuing to pour carbon-based compounds into the atmosphere at an ever-increasing rate.
Now, to your point. What do you want me to say? That some areas of the Earth will become climactic paradises? Sure, that will happen, no doubt about it. But what do you think a 2-3 degree F chjange in average wordwide temperatures will do to atmospheric weather patterns? We already see that a few-degree rise in ocean temperature, no matter what the cause, is cause increasingly severe storms, at a cost of trillions of dollars cumulatively not to mention increased human misery.
My biggest concern is for midwestern farming. Our ability to grow record crops to feed not only ourselves but also a lot of the world, bringing much-needed income to the USA, could be threatened or, in a worst-case scenario, permanently altered by weather patterns that either bring drought or too much rain. That would be catastrophic for us as a country and also to the world. The midwest is a unique resource that relies on weather patterns remaining just as they are to succeed. Even if another part of the world becomes the new global breadbasket, that certainly doesn’t help us. In fact, it would break us.
I’m not sure what periodicals you’re reading that make you so suspicious. I would think that as a geologist you’re very aware that catastrophic change is not uncommon in the history of this planet and that thousands of species and entire ecosystems are wiped out in the geologic blink of an eye. It’s foolish to believe that we are somehow immune. To ignore the fact that we are currently performing the most gigantic chemical experiment on the atmosphere is to court peril.
April 22nd, 2006 at 10:09 amPS: Chris, as for fission power, that’s a technology that’s easy to exploit but fraught with danger. As with most things the human element is the weak link and we’ve already seen that accidents DO happen. Personally I think it’s worth the risk until I start to consider waste disposal, and I totally disagree your blithe dismissal of the issue. Unless we send that shit into the Sun, radioactive waste storage and disposal is an insurmountable problem.
No, we need to start a worldwide crash program into developing fusion power. It’s not beyond our capabilities, but it will take decades of strenuous effort and hundreds of trillions of dollars. The time to start is NOW!
April 22nd, 2006 at 10:16 amElectricBassPlayer #106,
…you’ve made some very astute observations in your post…
…moving from the realm of the purely scientific to the ethereal…
…At the risk of sounding overly apocalyptic, it would appear that the cosmos is rebelling…
…a 400% increase in increasingly violent (killer) tornadoes, and record (category five) hurricanes are no coincidence/aberration…
…America’s (indeed the world’s/mankind’s) karma is being fulfilled…
…unless enlightened, rational, more sophisticated (in common sense terms) leadership rises in the world’s most developed countries…
…the earth and all herein may be doomed…
…there is still time, but it is fast running out…
April 22nd, 2006 at 10:43 amWhat everyone misses on the global warming debate, is that it isn’t like global warming is the only issue air pollution causes. Global warming is just the most long term issue – nobody disputes smog.
I mean, shit we live in a world where people accept that second hand smoke causes everything from lung cancer to athletes foot right? Now just imagine what getting stuck in a traffic jam behind a black smoke spewing truck is doing to you.
April 22nd, 2006 at 11:13 amToday is Earth Day but Bush will meet with Oil Cartel CEOs and other industrial vermin to allow them to pollute more! As one poster on here said > they wish to rape the Earth for profits now and they do not care about the future! The hurricane season begins again soon and predictions are for more severe storms like last summer! New Orleans was damaged because a levee broke and flooded the city, but see what a real category 5 cane would do to N.O. if hit by the eye wall packing 160+ mph winds? The entire city would be completely destroyed and nobody would have the funds to rebuild it! Somewhere in the U.S. this summer may be hit by a cat 5 cane and completely wiped out?! Suppose Miami, Florida, is hit directly > entire city leveled, over a trillion in insured damage, 20,000 killed by flying debris or drowned, 5 million homeless, FEMA unable to help, total chaos and looting of what remains! The insurance industry would collapse and President Bush would LIE if he said federal government would help the people! Global warming is causing the hurricanes to become stronger, because ocean water temps in the Atlantic and Caribbean are rising, and that gives thermal moisture heat to power the cyclones! Global warming is also causing tornadoes to be stronger in the United States! By doing nothing Florida and some other States may have to be abandoned due to severe climatic weather patterns?!
April 22nd, 2006 at 11:20 amKURT VONNEGUT commented on the recent increase in hurricane intensity and frequency by saying and i paraphrase.. ‘the eath is sick of humans and is trying to regurgitate us up’!! how true!!
April 22nd, 2006 at 12:04 pm#89 Paul,
Polarbears are drowning right now.
Wow, and I bet they never ever drowned before in the history of the world. Right?
The Global Warming issue is directly associated with CLEAR environmental threats of cutting down the remaining rainforest, which will remove life from 1,000s of species currently alive in those remaining forests. Where are they to go?
You know what? I actually agree with you about this. Cutting down rainforest does REAL harm to our environment and ecosystems. Maybe if the Al Gores of the world focused more on that and less on trying to scare the shit out of people, I would have a more positive view on all of this. There is REAL pollution and there are REAL problems to deal with in this world – CO2 emissions are not one of them.
You don’t give a FLYING FK about the environment, and yet you DO CARE about blaming Democrats and scientists who are reading alarming trends OPPOSING FOR-PROFIT CORPORATIONS and their GREED.
I do care about the environment, but Al Gore and all of them don’t really. Just watch the trailer of his movie. He is trying to scare the pants off of everyone to submit them to paying taxes or whatever on CO2 emissions – while REAL problems such as rainforest erosion and REAL pollution is going on. You have also just exposed another thing this is really about: anticapitalism. This is a fight being waged by communists and anticapitalists to stop capitalism in its tracks. If you don’t think so, why doesn’t the UN want to curb emissions from China? Hmmmm.
With 1,000 of tons of uranium spread out over the Iraq, with the threat to USE nukes — GW Bush and his facile LIARS like you Seixon, are busily destroying our grandchildren’s lives. And you pretend to be sane? YOU’RE UTTERLY SELFISH AND CYNICAL. You support an obvious traitor, and cannot by any stretch of the imagination consider yourself patriotic.
The UNEP has done studies on depleted uranium, and has yet to publish any result claiming that DU is especially harmful. The newspapers also told us that Bush was going to use nukes against Iraq. Have you forgotten? You are being lied to – by the media. They are whipping up false stories to keep you insane and in a tizzy. You don’t even figure out when you have been lied to, because once one story turns out false, they come up with a new one and you forget the lie you were just told.
The bastard who averted his eyes to the warnings about Nine-eleven is NOT our chosen deity. He is NOT the ‘decider’ — dictator, except as the rightwing vote-fraud has made be the case, in complete abrogation of the Constitution. You know it, we know it, and HISTORY KNOWS IT.
Ah yes, the dictator who can’t even get Harriet Miers on the bench. I guess they don’t make dictators like they used to.
The only real question is how many more innocent people (including our soldiers) and species can Bush destroy, before justice finds him.
Bush Derangement Syndrome. Check yourself into your nearest health facility and get help. Bush is just one man – he is not the cause of all of your (perceived) problems.
April 22nd, 2006 at 2:15 pm“This is a site for left wing progolodytes who blame President Bush for everything.” — Blue State Red
Blaming him for his crimes is not irrational. Defending his crimes by attacking Al Gore is what is irrational. You can’t defend his crimes on their face, so you LIE.
“Polarbears are drowning right now.”
“Wow, and I bet they never ever drowned before in the history of the world. Right?”
MEANINGLESS. The extinction of polar bears is matched by the extinction of 1,000s of other species. Were there other extinction events in world history? Of course. There were also genocides — shall we have more of them?
“The UNEP has done studies on depleted uranium, and has yet to publish any result claiming that DU is especially harmful.”
HILARIOUS. Whatever else uranium is, it is a HEAVY METAL. We know very well how toxic heavy metals are to the human nervous system. How about spreading a thousand tons of uranium around YOUR house, eh? You don’t mind playing Dr. Radium, do you? How about YOUR kids breathing in radioactive particles which give them cancer before they are ten?
Seixon, YOU are irrational. And your attempts at rebuttal are HILARIOUS. Al Gore’s trailer is scary? Oh my, oh my.
April 22nd, 2006 at 3:40 pm“I am not an expert, but I can only say that in France, where I live, nuclear power provides 85% of the country’s electricity and it is considered very safe and environmentally friendly. A Chernobyl accident is not possible with current technological safeguards”
Wow, that’s just wonderful. However, ‘current technological safeguards’ do not include steps taken to PROTECT such plants from a Nine-eleven air attack, or to protect the COOLING PONDS, which are directly open to attack, or to protect the public along the DISPOSAL ROUTES for all that fuel, once it cools enough to be transported, or to protect the public from accidental leaks from the disposal site, which has to be kept whole for 100,000 years.
Current technological safeguards do not guard the poor people who MINE uranium, who are generally enslaved to a highly-toxic industry. CTS do not guard the water supply which flows through the storage region. CTS doesn’t fully guard the trucks which deliver fuel to the plant. CTS doesn’t stop OLD REACTOR DESIGNS, which France has PLENTY of, from breaking down and blowing up.
In Feb 01, the US came within moments (or days, or weeks, who knows?) of a total meltdown of a Davis-Besse plant of older design, 40 mi. west of Toledo, Ohio. A fifty-pound chunk of steel was missing from the reactor, and the only thing holding the coolant in was the stainless cladding, which is paperthin, and which bulged out the hole like bubblegum.
That near disaster, which would have been far worse than Three Mile Island (total meltdown) OR Chernobyl (because of proximity to major cities), was a DIRECT RESULT OF INDUSTRIAL NEGLIGENCE. You remember industrial negligence, don’t you?
Cause if you have forgotten how accidents happen, then you are living in France without realizing that you are a few miles from a potential plume of nuclear waste which could poison your family in a few minutes time. If you have children, I strongly recommend you purchase ionic Iodine, and keep it on hand. It won’t save your lives outright, but it will give you time to FLEE from the next time the people running your dangerous powerplants decide to spill their Pepsi into the console.
April 22nd, 2006 at 3:52 pmHow you EXPORT your problems, Chris:
FRENCH SMUGGLING OF NUCLEAR WASTE TO ILLEGAL DUMPS IN RUSSIA:
“A new report, “Europe’s Radioactive Secret”, by the environmental group [Greenpeace] details the illegal trade that sees contaminated uranium from reprocessing activities at La Hague and depleted uranium from nuclear fuel enrichment facilities in France and Urenco facilities in Gronau (Germany), Almelo (Netherlands) and Capenhurst (UK) being transported to illegal dumps in Russia. The containers used to transport the wastes do not even meet IAEA standards and pose a serious risk during transportation (over 3,000 kilometres by rail to Siberia) and when eventually dumped. A large percentage of the waste is in the form of hexafluoride crystals that can react violently with water leading to the dispersal of a toxic gas that can prove fatal when inhaled. Greenpeace has collected evidence of 100,000 tonnes of waste being shipped to Russia in the last ten years alone.
Greenpeace in Russia has filed a case against the government export company, Tecksnabexport with the Moscow district court because according to article 48 of the federal law of 2001 “On Environmental Protection”, the import of nuclear wastes and foreign nuclear materials to the Russian Federation for the purpose of storage or disposal is prohibited.”
And how well are these CTS totally-safe plants you crow about spreading their message to scientists and politicians? Everybody wants some — right?
“Belgium is just the latest of five EU states planning to phase out nuclear energy. The others are Germany, Spain, Sweden and the Netherlands. Seven other countries — Austria, Denmark, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg and Portugal — have either abandoned nuclear power or never established programmes.”
One bomb into ANY of the cooling ponds around your 57 plants, and adios muchachos.
In the age of terrorism, and especially for France, it is the height of folly to further invest in nuclear plants which cannot be protected. Vive La France, but you folks need to GET REAL about the ticking timebomb you have around your plants, bubbling in ponds.
April 22nd, 2006 at 4:14 pmThe number of deaths in coal mines in one year worldwide is higher than the total of fatalities that can be ascribed to nuclear power (Chernobyl mainly, including cancer cases that are still expected to occur in the coming years).
Am I now going to be abused by that guy “Paul†for not condemning nuclear power?
Comment by Chris Schoneveld —
A very telling remark, because under Dumbya Bush the safety regulations on US coal mines have become laxer or often unenforced (with puny fines for violations). I don’t care to go into a debate about the development for peaceful uses right now; let’s just say I wouldn’t trust the current administration to do it in the safest way possible.
April 22nd, 2006 at 5:45 pmAs for Squeege’s concerns about business, his/her attitude of all people be damned/let’s not offend big business is one of the stupidest arguments I’ve seen yet. Also, Portland, Oregon, which is booming economically while reducing carbon emissions voluntarily below Kyoto Protocol goals, is a case proving that with some ingenuity, new fuel-efficient and/or sustainable methods and businesses can be developed.
“The number of deaths in coal mines in one year worldwide is higher than the total of fatalities that can be ascribed to nuclear power”
NOTHING that can happen at a coal mine can kill MILLIONS of people.
A PERFECT safety record, with one measly Chernobyl level event, can ruin a company’s or an industry’s entire ‘reputation.’
Leaking nuclear dumps could well kill millions in the very near future, or in a thousand years. With risk scales like those, it doesn’t take but one accident in that thousand years to EASILY outdo anything that ever happened at a coal mine, OR ALL COAL MINES.
This kind of specious reasoning from Chris is so foolish it’s hard to imagine how he can face himself in the mirror.
April 22nd, 2006 at 6:12 pmThe response letter to Harper goes right back to the 2001 IPCC report to justify their claims. Interesting. I wonder how they would react to some of the comments by one of the reports authors…
Later,
April 22nd, 2006 at 10:12 pmIt will never be surprising that there are plenty of ‘informed’ corporate-paid shills answering this sort of thread with various canned insider ‘information.’
Cicero, hah, why don’t you do what I suggested, and link Global Warming fears in context with ACTUAL AND INDISPUTED habitat destruction and global extinction. Then get back to us.
Oh, and don’t forget to cross yourself and feel holy for fighting for corporate profit instead of survival of the ecosystem. Without greed, and greedhead shills, how will the Apocalypse ever arrive?
April 22nd, 2006 at 11:05 pm#113 Paul
MEANINGLESS. The extinction of polar bears is matched by the extinction of 1,000s of other species. Were there other extinction events in world history? Of course. There were also genocides — shall we have more of them?
Yes, species of animals have died throughout history and become extinct. I think the eradication of rainforest has done much more to rid the world of animals than anything you can link to CO2 emissions. A change in the climate will kill off some animals, and will give life to new ones. That is the circle of life, and you seem to be ignorant of this.
HILARIOUS. Whatever else uranium is, it is a HEAVY METAL. We know very well how toxic heavy metals are to the human nervous system. How about spreading a thousand tons of uranium around YOUR house, eh? You don’t mind playing Dr. Radium, do you? How about YOUR kids breathing in radioactive particles which give them cancer before they are ten?
Yes, it is a heavy metal, and so are many other substances that we use. Thousand tons of uranium in my house?? What kind of irrational and completely stupid example is that? We’re talking about using DU munitions in war in a country the size of California, and you are talking about a 1000 tons of uranium in my house. Gee, that is quite a bit of a difference, isn’t it? You are hyperventilating with irrational nonsense.
But hey, if you won’t listen to the UNEP… I don’t know what else to tell you. Next comment are you going to tell me that eating at McDonalds is deadly because if I ate 1000 tons of McDonalds hamburgers I would die? LOL.
Seixon, YOU are irrational. And your attempts at rebuttal are HILARIOUS. Al Gore’s trailer is scary? Oh my, oh my.
I’m irrational? You’re the one who passed off having 1000 tons of uranium in my house as an argument. LOL. Al Gore’s trailer is meant to scare the shit out of people, yes. Watch it. You can’t deny it. The trailer basically says that you have to watch the movie because your childrens’ life depends on it. If that’s not fear-mongering, I don’t know what is.
Read the Time magazine that came out the first week of April?
“BE AFRAID. BE VERY AFRAID.”
Yeah, no one is trying to scare anyone. No fear-mongering here! Whatever. Go throw some more darts at your George Bush dart-board.
April 23rd, 2006 at 11:12 amI find it disturbing that corporate shills and wingnuts are more than willing to gamble with the future of human extinction on the minute chance that all the science is wrong. The stakes are so high that any sane person would prefer to err on the side of safety. I guess that doesn’t qualify as “pro-life” though.
April 23rd, 2006 at 12:12 pm“I think the eradication of rainforest has done much more to rid the world of animals than anything you can link to CO2 emissions”
GREAT! Now COMBINE THAT EFFECT WITH GLOBAL WARMING. You have just disproved your contention by recognizing the COMBINED EFFECT is going to be far worse on animal survival than you account for. Even a slight GW effect will make the habitat destruction -linked extinction FAR WORSE.
“A change in the climate will kill off some animals, and will give life to new ones. That is the circle of life, and you seem to be ignorant of this.”
GREAT! So let’s replace all our songbirds with cockroaches! It’s a Win-Win.
“Yes, it is a heavy metal, and so are many other substances that we use.”
That we use? We do not permit microscopic lead to accumulate near OUR schoolyards, but in Iraq, you can dump this stuff to your heart’s content? In a country with killer sandstorms? Using shells that create sharp, fused fragments which once inhaled will NEVER leave lung tissue?
“We’re talking about using DU munitions in war in a country the size of California,”
H’yeah, they’re shooting those munition out in the desert far far far from human beings, right? You are SUCH a liar, Seixon.
“But hey, if you won’t listen to the UNEP… I don’t know what else to tell you. Next comment are you going to tell me that eating at McDonalds is deadly because if I ate 1000 tons of McDonalds hamburgers I would die? LOL.”
Heavy metals are known toxins, especially to children, especially to children’s lungs. The UNEP, if they don’t report that aspect of this POISONING of children, are liars like you.
“I’m irrational?”
Yes, you are irrational AND a liar, or someone disposed to present a slanted case that has no context.
“You’re the one who passed off having 1000 tons of uranium in my house as an argument. LOL.”
Fine. Let’s put exactly one ounce of particulate mercury in YOUR child’s environment. Have a nice day, and don’t forget to save up for the oncology!
“Al Gore’s trailer is meant to scare the shit out of people,”
Oh, gee. Well it’s unlikely to start genocidal wars or reinitiate the use of nuclear weapons, so call me not scared.
That Bush ‘dart-board’ has had Hussein’s face on it since the 1980s when I protested Reagan over his support and arming of that CIA-installed madman. Now Bush has rivalled Hussein, again using US arms. When the blowback comes, make sure you’re on hand to tell us all how Bush’s warcrimes were the only way to free the world from terrorism.
April 23rd, 2006 at 4:05 pmHyperbolic Paul,
GREAT! Now COMBINE THAT EFFECT WITH GLOBAL WARMING. You have just disproved your contention by recognizing the COMBINED EFFECT is going to be far worse on animal survival than you account for. Even a slight GW effect will make the habitat destruction -linked extinction FAR WORSE.
Yes, the Earth’s climate is warmer now than it has been for some time. As I said, some animals will become extinct, others will flourish and new species will be born. That is the circle of life. If it wasn’t, we’d still have dinosaurs and sabretooth tigers. There’s a reason why most of the animals from the Ice Age movies aren’t still here, and it isn’t because of us!
Keep your focus on what you can prevent: rainforest destruction. The warming of the Earth, however, is something our god the Sun decides, something you cannot change.
GREAT! So let’s replace all our songbirds with cockroaches! It’s a Win-Win.
Was this supposed to make sense? Sorry, I don’t speak jibberjabber.
That we use? We do not permit microscopic lead to accumulate near OUR schoolyards, but in Iraq, you can dump this stuff to your heart’s content? In a country with killer sandstorms? Using shells that create sharp, fused fragments which once inhaled will NEVER leave lung tissue?
Hmm, I don’t think this is correct. I’ve heard a lot more about lead-poisoning than I have about DU-poisoning. As I already said – take it up with the UNEP. They’ve already done studies on DU usage in Kosovo and Iraq, and they haven’t come up with it being especially harmful. If I remember correctly, there were patients who had DU fragments in their body, and they still have not endured any life-threatening disabilities from it. In fact, the only thing that was wrong with them was something in their urine. And these are people who have DU implanted in their body permanently.
Looks like you are again fear-mongering and exaggerating to try and make a point. I don’t buy hyperbole.
H’yeah, they’re shooting those munition out in the desert far far far from human beings, right? You are SUCH a liar, Seixon.
Well, yes, they did, and are. But that’s not the point. You talked about 1000 tons of uranium in the space of a house, when the reality is that it is not that dense in Iraq. You are and were exaggerating because you cannot keep your discourse to a sane and rational level. Your rhetoric is loaded with irrational emotion. Try thinking more, and feeling less.
Heavy metals are known toxins, especially to children, especially to children’s lungs. The UNEP, if they don’t report that aspect of this POISONING of children, are liars like you.
Yes, everyone is lying, even the UN! Whatever you have to tell yourself. Of course heavy metals are not good to have in you. That doesn’t matter where you are, or what type of metal it is. The problem you face is that you are hyping the effects this has had in Iraq. Looks like at least SOMEONE bought into Saddam’s propaganda. It wasn’t me or the UN (wow, now there’s a first), though.
Fine. Let’s put exactly one ounce of particulate mercury in YOUR child’s environment. Have a nice day, and don’t forget to save up for the oncology!
Paul, what does mercury have to do with our discussion? Again, nothing. You are so irrational that you can’t even keep a sane discussion. Why not start talking about kryptonite while you’re at it. Geez.
That Bush ‘dart-board’ has had Hussein’s face on it since the 1980s when I protested Reagan over his support and arming of that CIA-installed madman. Now Bush has rivalled Hussein, again using US arms. When the blowback comes, make sure you’re on hand to tell us all how Bush’s warcrimes were the only way to free the world from terrorism.
Oh please, now you are just making shit up Paul. The CIA did not install Saddam Hussein, Saddam was USSR’s man in Iraq, and you damn well know it. We did not arm Saddam – we gave him some loans, the CDC sent him some biological samples, and we sold him some helicopters. That’s it. There’s a reason the vast majority of Iraq’s military infrastructure is Russian and French. Try to step back into reality for a second.
Reagan support Saddam because Iran was about to get out of hand and screw up the entire region. You know that. It was the lesser of two evils – something progressive idealists such as yourself can never face the reality of at all. For you it is always about utopian standards that can never be attained in the real world.
Pathetic. We live in THIS world Paul. Not in the utopia of your dreams.
April 23rd, 2006 at 7:31 pmPathetic. We live in THIS world Paul. Not in the utopia of your dreams.
Comment by Seixon — April 23, 2006 @ 7:31 pm
Funny that you’re still awake at 1:30 in the morning in Norway on a school night.
April 23rd, 2006 at 8:25 pmunbelievable,
Funny that you’re still awake at 1:30 in the morning in Norway on a school night.
Seeing as how I am working on my bachelor project, and no longer have to attend any classes, I’m not sure why me being up at 1.30AM on a “school night” is so “funny”. Have you even gone to college? If so, then you are just being ridiculously disingenous here. Or you could just pretend that it was abnormal for a college student to be up late… Meanwhile, in the REAL world, I know that college students, such as myself, stay up late often. But hey, insinuate away!
April 24th, 2006 at 9:59 amRyan,
You have a flair for ignoring relevant information, while fixating on the irrelevant. We aren’t talking about the lost of ’some’ animals, we’re talking about the loss of ‘most’ animals – a MASS EXTINCTION INCLUDING POSSIBLY OF OURSELVES.
Sure, if you believe Al Gore when he talks about the sea level going up 20 feet. Even then, that wouldn’t make us extinct by a longshot. I see you have fallen into the same trap of hyperbole and irrational bloviations.
We can prevent much of it, but not as long as STUPID apologists and MORONS like yourself keep ignoring the significance and importance of what’s happening.
Hmm. So we can prevent the Sun from warming the Earth? Interesting… What movie did you learn this from? I think Mr. Burns attempted that on the Simpsons once… LOL.
Wow you’re STUPID, the WHO/UNPE fact sheet is here
http://www.who.int/ mediacentre/ factsheets/ fs257/ en/
Not only does it show you’re an IDIOT, but also that you’re a LYING PROPAGANDIST. We do know depleted uranium is harmful – but ‘usually’ it’s localized. Meaning that only children or farm animals in areas of heavy combat get sick. The problem is that a lot of cultures find ’secondary’ uses for the metal where it ends up getting smelted or collected while damaging those who are in contact with it.
You’re a FOOL.
Actually, reading that reinforces what I already said, and pours a whole lot of cold water on the extreme rhetoric used earlier by someone else. Let’s just have a read:
And the potential health effects:
Looks to me as if it is more dangerous to eat at McDonald’s regularly than it is being exposed to DU after a military conflict. I consider myself completely justified here, and you can all cry your way back to the propaganda that failed you.
The US did sell and arrange the sale of multiple kinds weapons to Saddam over many years.
I can point you to more research – but you’re so STUPID AND LAZY, why bother? We both know you’re not smart enough to learn anything – poor little dumb kid…
Once again Ryan comes with the “I could prove it to you but you are too dumb” response. I have researched it, Ryan. Head on over to SIPRI and take a look at their accounting of military equipment sold to Iraq. The only thing the USA sold to them were helicopters of conventional military equipment. The CDC also sent Iraqi universities biological samples. The US government also allowed for some kind of loans to Iraq, although I’m not too sure about that.
I’m sure you can point me to a bunch of lying liars claiming we sold Iraq a bunch of weapons. The facts, however, tell a different story. Over 70% of Iraq’s military equipment came from the good old USSR. Go look it up at SIPRI. I dare you.
How’s that lack of ‘idealism’ working for you? You guys created Saddam, Al Queda, and even gave Iran Nuclear technology under president Ford. You’re just great at those ‘moral compromises’ aren’t you STUPIDO? The reality is we could have supported Saddam without giving him WMDs. We could also have supported Afghanistan without creating a Terrorist organizations. Those CHOICES were convenient for Fascist values (Like yours) – and they’re SHORTSIGHTED AND STUPID – much like YOU.
You guys? Created Saddam and al Qaeda? WTF are you talking about? First of all, Saddam is not a robot. Saddam toppled the government of Iraq and allied himself with the USSR – not the USA and the CIA. The group known as al Qaeda didn’t even come into existence until the Clinton administration due to bin Laden’s disgust at US troops being in Saudi Arabia after deflecting Saddam from Kuwait. If you want to talk about support for the freedom fighters in Afghanistan back before that, it was none other than Jimmy Carter who started the financial support for them back in 1979.
So I don’t know what you’re going for here, other than being a hopeless partisan hack.
We didn’t give Saddam WMDs.
We didn’t create Saddam Hussein.
We didn’t create al Qaeda nor the Taliban.
You bring up a good point in your miserable rant – that we should have involved ourselves more in Afghanistan instead of just sending money to a group and hoping it would be OK. This is what we are now rectifying by STAYING in Afghanistan to ensure that another Taliban or al Qaeda pops up there in the future. That is the mistake that Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr. and Clinton made, one that we will not allow to happen again.
That still doesn’t mean we CREATED any of them. They came about themselves, through their own power.
You attempts to smear me as a fascist, a Republican, “stupido”, “stupid”, “shortsighted”, “lazy” and everything else is evidence of your consistent ad hominem parade devoid of original thought and debate.
You couldn’t even read the UNEP research and see that it said exactly what I already have said a bunch of times already in response to the “1000 tons of uranium in your house” type of hyperbole.
April 24th, 2006 at 10:19 amSeeing as how I am working on my bachelor project, and no longer have to attend any classes, I’m not sure why me being up at 1.30AM on a “school night†is so “funnyâ€. Have you even gone to college? If so, then you are just being ridiculously disingenous here. Or you could just pretend that it was abnormal for a college student to be up late… Meanwhile, in the REAL world, I know that college students, such as myself, stay up late often. But hey, insinuate away!
Comment by Seixon — April 24, 2006 @ 9:59 am
You doth protest too much…
April 24th, 2006 at 12:10 pmYes, I will protest when you, such as Ryan, have no other focus than to try and smear me or insinuate that I am lying about who I am or where I live. It almost sounds like your idea of college students is that they are like primary school students that live at home with their mommy and have to go to bed by 9. I guess it’s what happens when your world is ruled by assumptions and suspicions rather than facts.
April 24th, 2006 at 1:24 pmI guess it’s what happens when your world is ruled by assumptions and suspicions rather than facts.
Comment by Seixon — April 24, 2006 @ 1:24 pm
At least I have a sense of humor, and no ulcer from paranoid delusions.
I was making a joke. Know what that is?
April 24th, 2006 at 4:49 pm“ou guys? Created Saddam and al Qaeda? WTF are you talking about? First of all, Saddam is not a robot. Saddam toppled the government of Iraq and allied himself with the USSR – not the USA and the CIA.”
HILARIOUS LIES. The CIA installed Hussein, and Reagan armed him against IRAN (which was Russia’s ally).
Seixon, you really don’t know your stuff.
April 24th, 2006 at 8:13 pm“Actually, reading that reinforces what I already said, and pours a whole lot of cold water on the extreme rhetoric used earlier by someone else. Let’s just have a read:
* About 98% of uranium entering the body via ingestion is not absorbed,”
AND THUS PUTTING THE LIE TO DATA YOU COPIED. The issue is NOT ingestion, it is INHALATION, dummy.
If material in the fused DU form reaches the lungs, it is too sharp and too heavy to be removed by the cilia, thus creating a carcinoma locus that cannot be removed by surgery or other forms of medicine.
From the lung, material can DIRECTLY enter the bloodstream, no alimentary canal involved, and travel to the kidneys, where it can cause kidney obstruction and pre-cancerous changes (genotoxicity) there. The kidneys are designed to prevent the loss of minerals, so much of the uranium stays in the body, ’stored’ in bone, since it reacts to phosphate, displacing calcium.
According to D.E. McClain, A.C. Miller, and J.F. Kalinich, of the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute, DU has 50% of the radioactivity of fuel uranium. FIFTY PERCENT. How ‘depleted’ is that?
April 24th, 2006 at 8:31 pm“* Of the uranium that is absorbed into the blood, approximately 70% will be filtered by the kidney and excreted in the urine within 24 hours; this amount increases to 90% within a few days.”
Carefully worded to avoid the point. The 30% that is not filtered, is not filtered because IT IS ALREADY LODGED IN BONE. The factoid then ignores the lodged 30% and pretends that kidney filtration applies to the whole load. It does not, because 1/3 of the uranium is already in the bones, and not circulating in the blood for the kidneys to filter it.
“Twenty to thirty percent of a toxic does of intravenous uranium could be found in the bones of male rats within 2.5 hours after administration, and 90% of the uranium retained by the body after 40 days was in bone [Neuman 1948a]. They showed that young growing rats or rats deficient in dietary calcium incorporated greater amounts of uranium than controls [Neuman 1948b]. They also showed that uranium is preferentially incorporated in areas of active calcification and becomes more re-fractory to resorption as new calcification covers areas of uranium deposition [Neuman 1948c].”
YOUNG rats, growing rats, absorb MORE DU to the bone than older rats. The danger, as usual, is to the children.
“Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. ”
While the Genocide Convention does not refer to DU poisoning of children, it clearly considers the anti-children part of genocide. Forceable acts poisoning children are a form of genocide.
April 24th, 2006 at 8:39 pm#130 unbelievable: I was making a joke. Know what that is?
In that case, it wasn’t especially amusing. Haha, you’re up at 1:30AM, and you say you live in Norway. Hilarious. Please, you said something dumb and got burned.
#131 Paul,
HILARIOUS LIES. The CIA installed Hussein, and Reagan armed him against IRAN (which was Russia’s ally).
Seixon, you really don’t know your stuff.
Actually, Hussein took out the regime that the CIA wanted in there. Reagan didn’t arm Saddam, the USSR did. The USSR armed both Iran and Iraq, and was allies of both. For a detailed view of transfers of conventional arms to Iraq between 1970-2004, have a read: http://www.sipri.org/contents/armstrad/REG_IMP_IRQ_70-04.pdf/download
Here’s a general overview: http://www.sipri.org/contents/armstrad/TIV_imp_IRQ_70-04.pdf/download
Here we find that during this time period, 1970-2004, the USSR stood for 59.57% of arms sales to Iraq, while the USA stood for 0.47%.
Yeah, I don’t know my stuff. Pull my other leg.
April 25th, 2006 at 2:08 amIn that case, it wasn’t especially amusing. Haha, you’re up at 1:30AM, and you say you live in Norway. Hilarious. Please, you said something dumb and got burned.
Comment by Seixon — April 25, 2006 @ 2:08 am
This is what I dislike about conservatives, the inability to accept responsibility in a two-way relationship. You chose to take me seriously and pitch a fit. I didn’t make you. You chose. You could, instead, choose not to take everything super-seriously and make a joke back. Will save you that stroke later in life.
April 25th, 2006 at 8:16 am[...] PS. Check out what some of the other right-baised journalists are saying about environmental gloom and doom via ThinkProgress. [...]
April 26th, 2006 at 8:39 amHey what ever happened to sticking to the topic? Y is it that every time there is a debate about anything it always has to turn into a cry fest from someone. The issues are more important than your poor little feelings.
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