MSNBC’s Shuster: Signs Point To Rove Indictment
MSNBC’s Shuster: Signs Point To Rove Indictment
Last night, MSNBC’s David Shuster took a look at recent court filings by special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald and suggests that Karl Rove is likely to be indicted. Watch it:
Three key points made by Shuster:
1. The latest court documents, for the first time, name Rove as a subject of the investigation.
2. The court documents go out of their way to say that Rove will not be called as a witness in Scooter Libby’s trial, even though Rove is a key part of the narrative. Shuster notes that this is done when prosecutors want to “leave open the possibility of later charging that particular subject in a separate case.”
3. Rove is referred in court documents as “Official A.” Shuster says “in every single case we have found, Keith, that prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald when he designates somebody as Official A in an indictment, that person eventually does get indicted themselves.”
(HT: Atrios)
Transcript:
KEITH OLBERMANN: First off, the base line here. Has the status of the Fitzgerald grand jury changed? Has the status of Mr. Rove in the investigation process itself changed?
DAVID SHUSTER: Well, first on the investigation, defense lawyers say that the grand jury investigation is active again and that the panel has been meeting in recent weeks, although prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald was not seen at the grand jury this week, and hasn’t been seen there for some time. Now regarding Karl Rove, according to the latest documents, the first time Rove is now described as a subject in the overall case - a subject being a technical term meaning somebody is under investigation. And the latest prosecution documents also go out of their way to suggest that Rove is not going to be a prosecution witness at the Libby trial even though Rove is part of the narrative against Scooter Libby. And the reason that’s significant is because prosecutors usually don’t put subjects on the witness stand for tactical reasons if they want to leave open the possibility of later charging that particular subject in a separate case.
The other thing that has long been intriguing about Karl Rove, and that is, we’ve known for months that in the Scooter Libby indictment when they refer to Official A, Official A is Karl Rove. And the indictment against Libby says that Official A disclosed to Scooter Libby that he had had a conversation with columnist Robert Novak. The reason prosecutors describe an official as an Official A is when there’s pejorative information about that person, and the person has not yet been indicted and had a chance to defend themselves. But we’ve looked at prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald’s record as far as designating people as Official A or Official B, and in every single case we have found, Keith, that prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald when he designates somebody as Official A in an indictment, that person eventually does get indicted themselves. And that’s why I think with everything coming together there is so much intrigue tonight about Karl Rove.
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When?!!! I’m getting impatient, and Fitzmas is a long wait.
April 21st, 2006 at 11:08 amAn indictment on national security crimes is the stepping stone to a lucrative Fox News contract. Just ask Ollie the Terrorists Arms Dealer.
April 21st, 2006 at 11:11 amAs long as Bush knows that he has the ability to pardon people, Rove is safe.
April 21st, 2006 at 11:20 amDo I hear the “boom, boom, boom” of doom???
April 21st, 2006 at 11:21 amKarl Rove must be indicted, but Bush will never fire him! Karl is Dubya’s brain, so without him George would be and act far dumber in public! Sad but True!
April 21st, 2006 at 11:24 amFinally!!!! some good news coming out of Washington. (White House)
April 21st, 2006 at 11:26 amParaphrasing a line from “New Jack City,” I get aroused just thinking about a Rove indictment.
April 21st, 2006 at 11:27 amhaha!!
April 21st, 2006 at 11:27 am“Karl Rove must be indicted, but Bush will never fire him!” - - If Rove is indicted, he’ll be gone from the White House even if he has to fall on his sword. That’s as certain as the sun rising in the east.
April 21st, 2006 at 11:29 amplease please please please PLEASE, already, goddammit!
April 21st, 2006 at 11:31 amRove might be gone from the WH on being indicted, but he will continue to be the source of all the dirty tricks and contemptous carryingons of the Repugnants during the fall campaigns. The Swiftboaters will be back in force and the assinine media will slop it up like gravy on biscuits. None of them have the guts to question anything that this garbage master puts out.
April 21st, 2006 at 11:36 amThis may be nitpicking on my part, but Rove was mentioned as a “subject” of the investigation last summer. “Subject” is, I gather, a less specific term than “target”.
Though maybe this is the first time the word “subject” was used in court documents?
April 21st, 2006 at 11:36 amI wish post 10, but seriously Bush will not fire Karl Rove! He will keep him in some position even if he has to do it secretly > Dubya cannot function without Rove! George has NO brain!
April 21st, 2006 at 11:38 amMarry Fitzmas pigboy! It will be lovely to here your ass squeal all the way out of the WH.
April 21st, 2006 at 11:40 amJust the vision of Rove being knocked down a few notches will be worth it.
Remember guys, no one from the Reagan Administration ever served time for the Iran-Contra debacle. Just a common citizen who held a street sign hostage in protest. Rove won’t see jail either.
April 21st, 2006 at 11:44 amI’m thinking that if Rover gets the indictment he’ll have less time prop up his friends between now and this fall.
April 21st, 2006 at 11:46 am#16 - I’d just like to see the smirk slide off Rove’s doughy face.
April 21st, 2006 at 12:00 pmI gotta agree with some of ya’s…Rove CANNOT be fired; he is, for the most part, the only intelligent (and I cringe to write that) Admin official. They’ll smear the prosecutor, Bush’ll say that he’ll fire him ONLY if “convicted”, he’ll then roll on Cheney to avoid presecution, and if need be, pardoned.
Standard practice at Corruption ‘R’ Us.
April 21st, 2006 at 12:03 pmI can’t wait to see him Frog Walked from the White House. Now if we could only see that with the man behind the desk.
April 21st, 2006 at 12:03 pmSo anyone here want to substantiate 1, 2, or 3?
1. Where do the “latest documents” indicate that Rove is a subject of the investigation, as opposed to earlier documents?
2. Where do the latest documents go out of their way to say that Rove will not testify in Libby’s trial?
3. Where is the evidence of this? Other cases that Fitzgerald has carried out, which ones?
Please tell me you kids don’t believe every single word Shuster says without checking it. Please.
April 21st, 2006 at 12:04 pmAnd this guy figured it out all by himself? Yoo-hoo, Shuster, NASA is calling!
PJF
April 21st, 2006 at 12:10 pmSeixon you believe every single word Bush, and fox news says without checking facts.
on topic, I am not going to hold my breath for an indictment of Rove. I agree that if he is somehow indicted, that Bush will pardon him. Bush and the RNC need him too much to allow a little thing like breaking the law to get in the way. I think the best approach is to adopt a wait and see.
April 21st, 2006 at 12:11 pmSeixon,
April 21st, 2006 at 12:12 pmSubstantiation is like the icing on the cake. This is a multi-decker if I ever saw one. This cake isn’t near ready for frosting.
And you make excellent points.
#21, Please tell me you kids don’t believe every single word Shuster says without checking it. Please.”
Mom,
I don’t believe anything, any more. Nor do I believe in anything other than the scientific method and my own brain. I certainly don’t believe in whatever form of government we have had the serious displeasure of witnessing for the past [enter a number, base 10 preferable] years.
Can I have the keys to the gas-guzzling SUV?
As much love as you deserve,
Glenn
April 21st, 2006 at 12:12 pmI think the best approach is to adopt a wait and see.
Comment by Krazny — April 21, 2006 @ 12:11 pm
I agree. Otherwise that manic-depressive rollercoaster ride of politics is frequently unbearable.
April 21st, 2006 at 12:15 pmMuch of the information Shuster is referring to comes from recent documents related to discovery. Fitzgerald said that Rove wasn’t going to be a witness as part of his effort to limit Libby’s discovery.
As to the official A issue, Gov. Ryan — who was recently indicted — used to be official A. Apparently there are other cases that Shuster reviewed that follow a similar pattern.
April 21st, 2006 at 12:15 pmGo read it yourself. Nothing we say will stop you from gettng on your knees and praying to your god Bush.
April 21st, 2006 at 12:16 pmI thought Bush was Official A.?
April 21st, 2006 at 12:20 pmWhatever happened this? http://www.thesmokinggun.com/ archive/ 0406061libby1.html?link=rssfeed
This is off topic but needs to be said -
Judd, I have never met you or spoken with you, but I love you. I would bear your children, that’s how much I love you.
For so long I have been depressed because there was so much “wrong” out there (or should I say HERE in Texas) I never had the opportunity to hear from like minded individuals. I do not even remember how I came across Think Progress, I am just happy I did.
April 21st, 2006 at 12:22 pmwow, the bastard didn’t even give Blumenthal credit for writing the story for him the day before…
what a jerk!
April 21st, 2006 at 12:27 pmI do not even remember how I came across Think Progress, I am just happy I did.
Comment by Jules — April 21, 2006 @ 12:22 pm
You might wanna also thank the man with the money - George Soros is the reason this site exists - and without the annoying pop-ups or constant begging for funds. :)
meg and I were sorta talking about this last night. Where else could you find an amalgamation of likeminds? It’s why Gore Vidal has been saying for years that they will find a way to shut down the internet in the name of kiddie porn and terrorism. And sure enough, the MSM has started with the segments on the Internet being a haven for child pornography and what should be done. I guess we should enjoy it while we can…
April 21st, 2006 at 12:28 pmI actually agree with Seixon, Krazny and Unbelievable. Look to the actual documents, not the ‘trial by media.’
And, yes, Bearpaw, there is a distinct difference between a “subject” of a grand jury investigation and a “target” of one.
Right now, we can only speculate, and as long as were keeping it in the realm of speculation, I wonder, will Rove be pardoned before any charges are officially filed? (Gerald Ford pardons Nixon) Will Fitzgerald be fired? (Attorney general under Nixon resigns rather than fire prosecutor, next attorney general fires prosecutor under Nixon’s orders) Will the Commander-in-Chief order an attack on a sovereign nation and divert the media’s attention from this affair? Will Bush ever get to read the end of “My Pet Goat?”
We pause now for a word from our sponsors, Enron, Halliburton and the Christian Coalition….
April 21st, 2006 at 12:33 pm#30 - Jules, I heard a while back that Judd is only 12 years old.
April 21st, 2006 at 12:34 pm:-)
Unbelievable - I get all of my news from sources on the internet and have for a long time but I never “joined in” on the threads until now. It is amazing that there you are in Georgia and here I am in Texas. We are both professionals turned teachers (which is another point of contention - why aren’t teachers considered professionals, but I digress) and we are of lie minds on many issues. It just wamrs the heart!
April 21st, 2006 at 12:38 pmOfficial A … hole? /snark
April 21st, 2006 at 12:41 pmDID ANYONE SEE THE VIDEO OF BUSH TALKING WITH
April 21st, 2006 at 12:46 pmHU FROM CHINA. BUSH KEPT LAUGHING AND SMIRKING
WHEN HE LOOKED AT THE AUDIENCE. HE MADE THE
MOST IDIOTIC STATEMENTS WHICH PROBABLY PISSED
OFF THE CHINESE. WHILE THE TRANSLATER WAS SPEAKING
CHINESE BUSH LOOKED LIKE A FUKKKKKIN IDIOT.
To #16’s comment…
Idon’t know. But I can’t say I’ve seen someone like Fitzgerald before. This guy strikes me as someone from days gone by… a real investigator with a lust for truth and justice. (I know, sounds idealistic, but I’ve got a good feeling about him).
April 21st, 2006 at 12:46 pmWe pause now for a word from our sponsors, Enron, Halliburton and the Christian Coalition….
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — April 21, 2006 @ 12:33 pm
Uh-oh, you left out Exxon.
April 21st, 2006 at 12:46 pmI HAVE A SINKING FEELING THAT SOMETHING BAD IS GOING
April 21st, 2006 at 12:49 pmTO HAPPEN TO BUSH. THE MILITARY HATES HIM…CIA HATES
HIM…GENERALS IN THE MILITARY ARE AFRAID TO TALK BUT
THEY ALL KNOW THIS IRAQ WAR IS A MESS AND BUSH WILL NOT
CHANGE ITS COURSE. I THINK SOMETHING BAD IS GOING TO
HAPPEN TO BUSH…HE HAS CREATED A HUGE MESS FOR THE
MILITARY AND THE CIA AND THEY PROBABLY THINK THIS GUY
IS COMPLETELY NUTS AND COULD DO SOMETHING CRAZY.
I AM PREDICTING THE MILITARY AND THE CIA TAKE OUT
BUSH BEFORE HE DOES ANYTHING CRAZY OVER IRAN….
It just wamrs the heart!
Comment by Jules — April 21, 2006 @ 12:38 pm
Jules, I totally know what you mean. For months I was frustrated by the fact that I would email news articles or political issue letters to my friends, and very rarely would anyone respond (usually just the same five). I had bought this book “Censored 2005″ in this cool three story bookstore in San Francisco near my office. In the back, it listed some non-mainstream news sources. One of them was http://www.Buzzflash.com. Occasionally, one of their links would take me here and I’d read the comments. Eventually, I started to post my own, and well, six months later… It’s so addictive to be around other people with a similar concern for what’s going on in our country, and the world. Gives me hope in humanity on some level again, you know?
April 21st, 2006 at 12:54 pmZoo - and isn’t it sad that he is more intelligent than the current occupants of the WH?
April 21st, 2006 at 12:57 pm#42 - It was a joke, but the “12 year old Judd” thing did go around at some point. ;)
#41 - Spot on, unbelievable. Though I think you keep coming back for the compliments. Salma Hayek look-alike…
April 21st, 2006 at 1:04 pmIf you want the real news - ASK ME - OK, yes, I will bring Karl Rove to his knees. :D
April 21st, 2006 at 1:18 pmSpot on, unbelievable. Though I think you keep coming back for the compliments. Salma Hayek look-alike…
Comment by Zookeeper — April 21, 2006 @ 1:04 pm
With friends like you… (just kidding. I totally love your sense of humor.)
For the record, I’m taller, and being only half-Italian, whiter than Salma :). We have the same hair color, face shape, and spunkiness, but that’s really about it. It started as a joke with krazny, but got out of control when IRI accused me of sending my photo to Gregor. I have tried to keep my physical appearance to a minimum around here, because it’s nice to be judged by my brain instead of my looks, as we gals all know happens far too frequently in the real world - but I suppose it’s hard to be a human without some visuals at some point. Sometimes I think it would be cool if Judd had a bar-be-que in his back yard and invited everyone over :)
April 21st, 2006 at 1:19 pm1. indictment
April 21st, 2006 at 1:19 pm2. convict
3. silver stake
4. sunlight
Now let me get this straight. If we can get Bush to go quail hunting with Cheney and let them have their fill of booze. WHo would be next in line to be president? Inquiring minds wanna know!
April 21st, 2006 at 1:20 pmMy money is either the VP or The President as the original source for the disclosure. Take a look at when the President gave the authority to declassify to the VP, wasn’t it around March of 03? By June you know Cheney had to know what was going on on who Valerie Plame was, so by executive fiat, beknownst, only to a few she had been officially declassified. Here is article that supports my guess, and my question about why the CIA only gave Novak a weak warning not to publish her name. Rove just “forgot” about his e-mail to Hadley. But apparently his memory failed him 8 or 9 other times.
April 21st, 2006 at 1:24 pmhttp://www.suntimes.com/ output/ news/ cst-nws-novak20.html
You guys compress the audio portion of the .MOV files WAY TOO MUCH!!!
The audio quality is terrible. You don’t save much on file size with the sound compression. It would be better to have slightly larger files and better quality audio.
April 21st, 2006 at 1:27 pmHere is the link for the VP’s authority to declassify.
April 21st, 2006 at 1:27 pmhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp-dyn/ content/ article/ 2006/ 04/ 06/ AR2006040601806.html
First setep to impeachement of GW.. whoppeee
April 21st, 2006 at 1:35 pm#45 - That’s hilarious. I just hope no one finds out I look like Pippi Longstocking. It’s not true — I don’t have freckles. ;)
I’d go to Judd’s backyard bar-b-que. Just sayin’
April 21st, 2006 at 1:39 pmI’d go to Judd’s backyard bar-b-que. Just sayin’
Comment by Zookeeper — April 21, 2006 @ 1:39 pm
Okay Pippi :)
I guess if he’s 12 he’d have to ask his parents first? (just kidding Judd, don’t ban me ;)
April 21st, 2006 at 1:42 pmSo no one has taken on my challenge?
Does that mean that most of you blindly believe what Shuster says?
Or will any of you provide anything that corroborates anything he said?
It seems as though Gov. Ryan certainly is one incident where Fitzgerald indicted an “Official A”, but without combing through all of Fitzgerald’s uses of such a naming, it would be slightly foolish to play along with Shuster’s claims.
Regardless of that, it wouldn’t mean that Rove would be getting indicted anyways. You can perhaps think of it as though Fitzgerald thought in the beginning of his investigation that Rove was “the guy”, but then found out that he wasn’t.
If Rove does get indicted, it will sure be interesting to see the charges brought against him. Alleging perjury doesn’t get you far when you can’t show that there was any motive to lie, in other words, that the lie was material. In order for that, he has to find that there was some kind of crime committed. As he has already explained several times, there was no crime committed, and he is protecting the original leaker namely because no crime was committed.
Later kids.
April 21st, 2006 at 2:16 pmlets just start with the stake, vampires slither away too fast
April 21st, 2006 at 2:32 pmWe’d better hope Karl is indicted. Otherwise with this new WH shuffle of positions and offices, Karl will be able to attend full time to counting congressional districts and votes, coming up with new swift boating campaigns against worthy people, new dirty tricks we never thought of, stop the recount campaigns, rigging computer voting systems, etc. etc. This is a dangerous man who wanted power was smart enought to know he himself couldn’t get elected so looked around for the no-count dimwitted, trust fund cheer leader who couldn’t hold a job.
April 21st, 2006 at 2:41 pmDon’t let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.
Goodbye and good ridence.
April 21st, 2006 at 2:43 pmSexion could you please list the questions Karl Rove was asked during any of his Grand Jury testimony or during any interviews he had with authorities?
April 21st, 2006 at 2:46 pmSo no one has taken on my challenge?
April 21st, 2006 at 2:53 pmComment by Seixon
Carl, is that you again? I thought I told you to get off those kiddy porn sites and leave the little people alone. Am I goin to have to take your blow-up Bush doll away from you again…………….
Seixon, Read post #27. Judd himself “took you on”.
April 21st, 2006 at 2:55 pm#40
What a joyous day for the world that would be!
I remember thinking back in 2000, when the Chimp was “elected.” Several U.S. presidents elected in a year ending in zero were assassinated or died in office:
William Henry Harrison: elected 1840, died 1841
Abraham Lincoln: elected 1860, assassinated 1865
James Garfield: elected 1880, assassinated 1881
William McKinley: re-elected 1900, assassinated 1901
Warren Harding: elected 1920, died 1923
Franklin Roosevelt: re-elected 1940, died 1945
John F. Kennedy: elected 1960, assassinated 1963
Ronald Reagan: elected 1980, assassination attempt 1980
George W. Bush: “elected” 2000
Though I would prefer to see the evil bastard chimpeached, convicted for war crimes, and sentenced to a life term in prison with no parole, I wouldn’t shed a tear if the military or the CIA decided to take matters into their own hands. They certainly have the motive and the capability.
April 21st, 2006 at 2:57 pmSigns Point to Rove Indictment…
Uh-oh, time for more feces-throwing at Patrick Fitzgerald!…
April 21st, 2006 at 3:09 pmBob jon &Avenging Angel, the freedom you have now using this medium for your thought is not going to be around in it’s current form if you keep posting things like your comments, #40 =. Unfortunately people will use your tripe as fodder for the censorship banner to be applied to Blogs. Newspapers don’t print everything, Talk Radio has it’s rules and you are just pushing the envelope and doing major damge to the uniqueness of this public forum.Soon anonymous handles will be banned and e-mails will be required and regulation will take place, you have crossed the line of civility. Hope your satisfied with your “limited” freedom. Thanks for abusing it for the rest of us.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:11 pmI really hate to be the guy who has to point this out….but…
The Bible says that if you live by the sword, then you shall die by the sword.
And Bush Co. lives by the sword daily. And has been since 1999 when he announced his intention to run for President. (Even before then for those of you who happen to reside in the great state of Texas.)
Once again, Jesus’ words prove their truth.
What you are witnessing now is the critical point… the boiling point, if you will… of those people dying by the sword.
And the bigger they are the harder they fall.
That reminds me… it must be time for Karl Rove to call his buddy Osama bin Laden to coordinate the next 9/11.
You see, Karl is HUGE. And when he falls, he’s taking the world with him… ARMAGEDDON appetite.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:17 pmAvenging Angel, (#61) you refer to Techumseh’s curse. Perhaps it is wearing off. Reagan survived the assassination attempt. And Bush survived the pretzel.
Jules, I too am a teacher. But I have a bit of an insight as to why teacher’s are not “professionals.” Teachers belong to a union, not an association. Think American Bar Association, American Medical Association. There is a HUGE difference in the purpose and focus between unions and associations.
Please note I put “professionals” in quotes. nearly all the teachers I know are highly professional.
And Seixon (#54), short of having access to the grand jury testimony, no one can take you up on your challenge. The actual court documents (pdf) are due to be released soon.
I wonder, did you hold the same view on perjury charges when Clinton was impeached? After all, whether or not he had any relations with others was immaterial to the Paula Jones case.
April 21st, 2006 at 3:34 pmI’ll bet Gov. Ryan (R-IL) was also “offical A.”
GO FITZ!
April 21st, 2006 at 3:47 pm#60 - Details, details…
April 21st, 2006 at 4:09 pmYOU GOTTA HEAR THIS!
April 21st, 2006 at 4:25 pmjust heard on randi rhodes show - earlier this week she interviewed the psy.doc. (franks) who wrote a book - bush on the couch (?) - VERY INTERESTING - she will play parts of that interview in “hour 3″ of her show - coming up soon - her show runs 3-7eastern time…
sorry i’ll miss it today, but i heard the original and it was enlightening, to say the least…
yep, bush is psycho - you’ll find out why!
gotta go - have a great weekend all!
#60, Wayne: Eh, no, Judd just repeated what Shuster said, and I have already stated that using Gov. Ryan as a sole example to demonstrate a “trend” is, well, stupid.
But I won’t be surprised if Fitzy indicts Rove anymore. Fitz is out of control, he can’t even write legal documents correctly and has to write the judge to have sentences corrected. His case against Libby is going to fall apart if they let any of the journalists take the stand, or even worse, the Wilsons themselves. Put them on the stand, and everything will evaporate.
It’s funny that Fitzy is protecting the real leaker, while he is prosecuting Libby for lying about not having committed a crime. Good grief what a circus. Just add Rove into the ring and bring in the giraffe and the lions and have a gay old time.
April 21st, 2006 at 6:34 pmSexion, I don’t get it. You come here challenge the the hypothetical of the post and then finish with hypotheticals. Are you saying your speculation is more factual then Judd’s? Who’s line are you repeating that Fitz’ case against Libby is going to fall apart? If you have facts about the Wilsons and the journalists you spoke of could you share them with us? What will evaporate?
April 21st, 2006 at 6:55 pmDear God - please let it be true.
April 21st, 2006 at 7:00 pmWill there be Fitmas in July this year?
April 21st, 2006 at 7:06 pmAn indictment will keep traitor Rove busy building his defense. This will give him less time to devote to his smear tactics.
April 21st, 2006 at 7:11 pmfly-man,
My speculation? I called for Judd to actually substantiate any of what Shuster said. He still hasn’t done so. I already looked, and I couldn’t find anything that substantiates what Shuster said. So… ??
Facts about the Wilsons and journalists? Well, how about Wilson lying to the Post and the Times about his mission to Niger? How about the fact that Nicholas Kristof KNEW Mrs. Wilson before any of this happened? That is off-topic, I know, but time to open the eyes people.
I have waited for many hours now for anyone to substantiate a word of what Shuster said. I am still waiting.
April 21st, 2006 at 7:21 pmThere’s a line in “Death Becomes Her” that seems perfect for this situation:
Do you know what they do to soft, bald, overweight Republicans in prison?
April 21st, 2006 at 7:23 pm#75 latte - now that’s funny. Maybe traitor Rove can get visits with Delay the theif.
April 21st, 2006 at 7:32 pmSexion, thanks for getting back to me. So what I don’t understand if it was truly nepotism and a plan by the Wilson’s to throw a wrench in the gears of the Administrations claims about the Yellowcake aquistion by saying they were forgeries and let’s say Joe Wilson lied about who sent him does that at all or in any way make the statement by the President in the SOU speech any more truthful? If Joe and his wife are guilty of conspiring does that really make the forgeries any more credible? If he was such a criminal by the way he exposed the truth does the truth change?
April 21st, 2006 at 7:49 pmfly-man,
Bush’s statement, that Iraq was seeking uranium, is STILL correct to this day, according to the intelligence of the French intelligence service. It was correct according to the NIE, and was correct according to the intelligence they had at the end of January 2003.
Why do you think Wilson lied to the Times and the Post about debunking the forgeries and claiming that the State Department and Cheney knew about it a whole year before Bush made his speech? That wasn’t true, but it was a nice tale to tell if you wanted to bring down the Bush administration.
Wilson didn’t expose any “truth”. He lied to the Times and the Post, and then continued to insist that Cheney’s office had been made aware of his mission, even though the CIA found his mission to have been inconclusive. He pretended in his op-ed not to know why his briefing wouldn’t have been sent up to Cheney, yet his wife would have had full knowledge of exactly why it wasn’t.
And oddly enough, Wilson knew all the details about the forgeries, and where the CIA has supposedly gotten the intelligence about them from before his mission - even though everyone at the CIA says they never told him any of that. Gosh, his wife knew. Anyone think his wife told him classified information he shouldn’t have had? Naaaah. The Wilsons are angels that would certainly never use their position for political purposes. Never.
The forgeries don’t matter at all. The forgeries’ entire purpose was exactly to distract from the fact that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger. They weren’t successful, nonetheless, but that was never the point. The forgeries were the result of a counter-intelligence operation carried out by the French with their agent Rocco Martino.
It’s time you all realize that Wilson lied his ass off to the Times and the Post to create a storyline that was entirely false in order to get the ball rolling against Cheney and Bush. That ended up with the State Department leaking his wife’s occupation, because they were pissed off about Wilson claiming that they had been briefed on his mission, when they never were.
Armitage leaked to Novak because he was pissed off about first telling the CIA that sending Wilson would be a waste of time, and then being fingered by Wilson as having received a report that he never received.
Apparently Wilson never took that into account when he was plotting against Bush. Moron.
April 21st, 2006 at 8:44 pmHere are 3 good links that I have found that support a counter to your points. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
April 21st, 2006 at 9:35 pmhttp://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/101605Z.shtml
http://nationaljournal.com/ about/ njweekly/ stories/ 2005/ 1027nj1.htm
http://www.juancole.com/ 2004/ 08/ pentagonisrael-spying-case-expands.html
god natt.
Seixon,
The fact that the Bush Administration retracted the infamous 16 words proves that Wilson was right. Regardless of whether Iraq was “seeking†uranium is irrelevant. Even if they did get yellow cake, it would take years to process in to plutonium to create a nuclear bomb. This hardly supports the “eminent threat†that we were sold for invading a country that never attacked us. Cheney, Bush & Co. (and I do mean Company) were and are still trying to hide their true intentions for controlling the Lightest and Sweetest crude oil reserves in the world.
You, Seixon, are obviously a republican shill. Even your name Seixon, with its subconscious reference to the word “Sex“, is pure Karl Rove. We are on to you pal. I sure hope the neo-cons are paying you a lot of money to spout your drivel, because we are not impressed.
Glenn, the humble
April 22nd, 2006 at 12:16 amI’ll fire anyone that leaked….
I’ll fire anyone that illegally leaked….
I would like to know who leaked….
I’m the decider.
I thought he thought he was a UNIFICATOR.
Bigots and hate mongers beware…. your chimp in theif is in grave danger of being chimpeached, and not for oral sex.
It is all about character, now chimpeach.
April 22nd, 2006 at 1:17 amDon’t get your hopes up.
Unfortunately, in the end, the “Decider in Thief” will pardon everyone, Libby, Rove, DeLay, Abramhoff, and any other major Republican political figure or major lobbyist.
Our only hope is for the Democrats to take back the majority in the House of Representatives and in 2007, Impeach Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumpsfeld, Gonzales and the three remaining Supreme Court Justices who illegally selected Bush in 2000. I doubt the Democrats can win enough seats in the Senate to remove the Bush crowd from office if they don’t resign, but at least they can be shut down until 2008.
Then there is the matter of Halliburton and the numerous incidents of military contract fraud.
And the other matter of the Bush/Cheney administration International War Crimes…
Of course the only way any of this is going to happen is for there to be a massive Democratic voter turn out to combat voter fraud on election day in November .
April 22nd, 2006 at 3:00 amGreat news. And let’s hope that this time Dr. Goebbels won’t commit suicide - he’ll be hung.
April 22nd, 2006 at 3:04 am… but, sadly, #82 is the likely scenario - I’d predict that all the stops will be full out to effect unprecedented election fraud and disruption, due to the prospect of the criminals’ asses being on the line if and when they lose power and their bloodsucking fangs removed from America’s throat.
April 22nd, 2006 at 3:08 amSeixon reveals himself. His poor fund of knowledge, gaping for all to see, unworthy of even a single cogent response.
April 22nd, 2006 at 3:48 am#78- If BushCo was so innocent, why all the drama? They should have just OPENLY made their case, with the “evidence” to bolster their claims. Instead they destroyed a woman’s career, denied they had done it, and then did the most inexplicable thing of all, PUBLICLY EXPOSED AN ENTIRE COVERT OPERATION!!!! WHY??? The Wilsons were one thing, but why this? They have never explained this part. and their part in it. How come? Was it to show just how far they were willing to go to silence people? Please do enlighten us.
April 22nd, 2006 at 7:11 amEverytime I see Karl Rove I think of a word that begins with the letters pedo
April 22nd, 2006 at 7:33 amWould it be great to return the USA to democracy if Subject A were Bush and Subject B were Cheney and the court indicted them and they were convicted? Whoever took out JFK, would they consider taking out B/C, but then they are hardly ever together. Presently B/C join the group of mass murderers in human history and with the use of tactical nuclear weapons might join the likes of the big three, Stalin, Hitler, Mao.
Otherwise this would seem the more likely scenario: with corporate control of the voting software in enough districts in enough states to determine the outcome, the Republicans retain control of the House and Senate. However, if the corporate control of voting software is inadequate be prepared for that October surprise of Rove’s; possibly the tactical nuclear weapon strike at Iran, and maybe martial law. This way the American people who do not protest like they did in the 60s and 70s, accept officially, a dictatorship, and GWBush prevents his brother, Jeb, from getting the Presidency in 2008, again with corporate control of the voting software. It does not matter, perhaps, how you vote, or who counts the vote, only who controls the software in the machines in enough states to maintain control of the people. I hope I am wrong. Now would a neocon ever hope to be wrong? I don’t think so.
April 22nd, 2006 at 9:34 amIt makes no difference whatsoever what the status of Rove is for the up-coming elections. He will be his usual lying, scheming self.
The elections will be about God, gays, guns, marriage, and patriotism. There will be no mention of any issues that confront the American people. The fact that most of the citizens have lost over 1 percent of their income, while the richest have gained 10 percent will not be mentioned by Kute Karl.
April 22nd, 2006 at 10:06 amI think you are right Paul, it will be framed about “God Gays Guns and Patriotism,” and the Democrats will go flaccid with drooped lips that they do not have better control of the media, whimpering in their inability to frame the proper context of HealthCare, War, and National Debt. The Democrats are being served Caspian Caviar on a Silver Platter, but they still seem stumped, digging in their pockets for peanut buttere crackers….
April 22nd, 2006 at 10:25 amSo condi has a bladder control problem?
Lawyer: Rice Leaked to AIPAC Lobbyist
http://famulus.msnbc.com/ famulusgen/ ap04-21-163636.asp?t=APNEW
April 22nd, 2006 at 10:32 amAll,
Seixon doesn’t deserve all this attention. His posts are as useless, as evidenced by his attacks on Wilson and Shuster. He offers no evidence to support his claims, but demands the rest of us do so - He attacks Wilson by calling him a liar, yet fails to acknowledge the lies of this adminstration - case in point the claim that the trailers found in Iraq were for bio-weapons development. A claim that was clearly false and, as recent reports are suggesting, Bush knew they were false when he made them. BUT, more importantly, Seixon is missing the point - the leaking of Plame’s name was a morally bankrupt act, even if Fitz can’t make a criminal case against the leaker.
Seixon rages against Wilson in his claim that Wilson lied for political purposes, and yet justifies the leaking of Plame’s name for political purposes by saying those involved were angry and wanted retaliation [78]. Hyprocracy?…absolutely.
Perhaps there is some sort of twisted justice in the knowledge that Seixon will suffer the consequences of this adminstration, just like the rest of us if we are unable to stop Bush and Co. Please ignore him - he brings no intellectual value to this conversation.
April 22nd, 2006 at 11:04 amIt seems like a long time and so much bad things happening WHEN is this going to be over? The poor and middle class and the senors are theones being squeezed to the limit. and the ecomony is not goodonly for the rich. Hurry please get it over.
April 22nd, 2006 at 11:08 amRomelee,
April 22nd, 2006 at 11:15 amI second that!
The Bush/Cheney house of cards has begun it’s fall. Libby and now Rove may get what they deserve for their lies, leaks, and treason against the people of the United States. With each of them facing possibly 30 years in prison it’s only a matter of time before they start singing like song birds about the involvement of Bush and Cheney. The entire Bush Administration are lower scum than street corner drug dealers for the damage they’ve done to our country and the world. The only thing that seperates them from the corner drug dealers are the nice things that the corporate media has been saying about them since they stole the 2000 election.
April 22nd, 2006 at 11:50 amPost # 80
April 22nd, 2006 at 12:05 pmI just want to say, Thankyou Glenn the Humble. You took the words right out of my head…I was thinking the same thing reading seixon’s posts. Liberal
Something will happen to open the eyes of the those who still are drink ing the Bush koolaid. Bush has done so much damage to our country, one would think there is no way we can recover. We can and will recover because most americans are smart enough to see what Bush and coharts have done. Smart americans see through all the ” born again” talk while millions of americans have lost their jobs, health care and can not afford things for their children like college. Have you ever heard Bush mention the homeless and feeding the hungry. Being a christian , I know that means trying to be Christ like. Christians don’t cause the death of so many people , give tax breaks to the rich while so many go hungry. Christians don’t lie and cheat to futher their agenda. To allow Rove and co-harts to tell the lies that were told about John Mccain and his family. To cause the damage to John Kerry via the Swift Boat smears. John Kerry was a hero for our country, Bush, Cheney did not serve a day in harms way. I know I am not as good as most at posting, I am 77 years old and am very new at it, but I know the Bush maddness can not continue. There will be a change for the better for the country we all love.
April 22nd, 2006 at 12:13 pmSomething will happen to open the eyes of the those who still are drink ing the Bush koolaid. Bush has done so much damage to our country, one would think there is no way we can recover. We can and will recover because most americans are smart enough to see what Bush and coharts have done. Smart americans see through all the ” born again” talk while millions of americans have lost their jobs, health care and can not afford things for their children like college. Have you ever heard Bush mention the homeless and feeding the hungry. Being a christian , I know that means trying to be Christ like. Christians don’t cause the death of so many people , give tax breaks to the rich while so many go hungry. Christians don’t lie and cheat to futher their agenda. To allow Rove and co-harts to tell the lies that were told about John Mccain and his family. To cause the damage to John Kerry via the Swift Boat smears. John Kerry was a hero for our country, Bush, Cheney did not serve a day in harms way. I know I am not as good as most at posting, I am 77 years old and am very new at it, but I know the Bush maddness can not continue. There will be a change for the better for the country we all love.
April 22nd, 2006 at 12:13 pmKarl Rove is a one-trick pony. He’ll be redeeming himself by stealing midterm elections in just the right races to somehow keep a man HATED by almost half the population insulated with a GOP Congress.
Stay alert. If they steal another election, there will be no retribution against Rove and the other evil idiots.
Steal the P!
The Missing P Project
http://www.geocities.com/themissingPproject
April 22nd, 2006 at 12:45 pmAwwwwwwwwwwww. Rove didn’t get indicted after all. Shuster lied. People sighed.
#80 Glenn:
The fact that the Bush Administration retracted the infamous 16 words proves that Wilson was right.
Ehm, no. Did you even listen to Tenet? The reason they retracted it was because they cited British intelligence, something they shouldn’t have done in a presidential speech.
Regardless of whether Iraq was “seeking†uranium is irrelevant.
Eh, what? Sorry man, but the entire intelligence community disagrees with you here. If Iraq was seeking uranium, there is only one reason why that would be - for a nuclear program. I wouldn’t say that is “irrelevant”.
Even if they did get yellow cake, it would take years to process in to plutonium to create a nuclear bomb. Eh. Did you fail science class? They would enrich the uranium. You can’t make plutonium out of uranium. LOL.
This hardly supports the “eminent threat†that we were sold for invading a country that never attacked us. Cheney, Bush & Co. (and I do mean Company) were and are still trying to hide their true intentions for controlling the Lightest and Sweetest crude oil reserves in the world.
Eminent? You mean “imminent”. Why are there so many illiterate people on Think Progress? I thought the progressives were supposed to be smart, and the conservatives dumb. The only person who stated that Iraq was an “imminent threat” was none other than Democratic senator Rockefeller. Ooooops.
You, Seixon, are obviously a republican shill.
Yeah, obviously. Anyone who challenges anything Think Progress people say has to be an evil Republican. I could never ever be a moderate Independent fed up with the brain-dead liberal Bush Derangement Syndrome fad. Nope, never.
Even your name Seixon, with its subconscious reference to the word “Sex“, is pure Karl Rove.
Actually, it’s a clever spelling of a japanese word meaning survival, but believe what you want.
We are on to you pal. I sure hope the neo-cons are paying you a lot of money to spout your drivel, because we are not impressed.
Oh yes. They are paying for my student housing here in Norway, and my BMW is waiting outside to take me to Karl Rove’s dark lair. Oh wait, I walk everywhere I go. How… progressive.
Glenn, the humble
More like Glenn the brainwashed, but I defer.
April 22nd, 2006 at 2:33 pm#92 mic405,
Seixon doesn’t deserve all this attention. His posts are as useless, as evidenced by his attacks on Wilson and Shuster. He offers no evidence to support his claims, but demands the rest of us do so
I got all the evidence you want baby, just tell me what you want. The thing is - you don’t want to see it because you don’t want your fragile worldview to be exposed to the truth. Shuster is a serial liar, and so is Wilson. Or do you think the Times and the Post wrote those stories about him debunking the Niger forgeries without his help?
He attacks Wilson by calling him a liar, yet fails to acknowledge the lies of this adminstration
So I have to talk about a lie Bush made every time I talk about anyone else lying? Boy, that would get a bit tiring.
case in point the claim that the trailers found in Iraq were for bio-weapons development. A claim that was clearly false and, as recent reports are suggesting, Bush knew they were false when he made them.
Heh, yeah, except the WaPo has backpedaled from their story because I and others exposed them for the frauds they are. Keyword: suggesting.
BUT, more importantly, Seixon is missing the point - the leaking of Plame’s name was a morally bankrupt act, even if Fitz can’t make a criminal case against the leaker.
It was morally bankrupt, even though the leaker didn’t even know that they were leaking classified information? Mmmm. OK?
Seixon rages against Wilson in his claim that Wilson lied for political purposes, and yet justifies the leaking of Plame’s name for political purposes by saying those involved were angry and wanted retaliation [78]. Hyprocracy?…absolutely.
I justified it? No, I told you the truth about what happened. The State Department, Armitage, leaked her name because he was fed up with Wilson’s constant lying to the media, and he wanted to tell the truth about how Wilson got the mission, and why he was sent on it, and that he was never briefed about the mission as Wilson claimed through his anonymous leaks. Wilson lied, Armitage set him straight. If Armitage didn’t know he was leaking classified information about Plame, then what is the moral problem? I don’t know whether Armitage knew or not, but the INR memo seems to indicate that they didn’t know that Plame was NOC.
Perhaps there is some sort of twisted justice in the knowledge that Seixon will suffer the consequences of this adminstration, just like the rest of us if we are unable to stop Bush and Co. Please ignore him - he brings no intellectual value to this conversation.
Yes, just ignore me. The true words of a thinking person. Ignore all dissent. Good, the evil plan by Bush is working. A new breed of ignorant and fascist ideals are growing all over the country. Dissent is frowned upon, excellent! Oh wait, I thought you guys were against that?
April 22nd, 2006 at 2:41 pmwonderful if true. that would take care of the campaign this fall. let condi be next. my slogan is tmapons in everyone’s mouth! but maybe rove has one last machiavellien trick up his sleeve: to replace rummy with joe lieberman under the guise of bi-partisanship. joe is just stupid enough and pufferfish to accept.
April 22nd, 2006 at 3:18 pmTo Briseadh na Faire, post #33, George W. Bush was never reading “My Pet Goat.” He was holding the book in his hand (right side up, this time) while the teacher and children were reading it. He was staring into space like the moron he is - not even looking at the book. I’ll plotz if I read one more place that he was reading “My Pet Goat.” The man does not read.
April 22nd, 2006 at 5:58 pmLet’s just remember that indictment doesn’t mean guilt or conviction—though we might all wish it. I am sure an indictment would handicap the Aministration even more and sully their already sullied reputation. But cornered animals do desperate things, and that is what I am going to be watching for.
April 22nd, 2006 at 7:41 pmRumsfeld, Cheney, Rice & Bush cannot let the Democrats win either the house or senate in November: there will be investigations. Be prepared for the dirtiest, most expensive election in History. If Rove wants a future as a king maker, he will have to sublimate his defence to that of his clients.
April 23rd, 2006 at 2:26 amSeixon LOL > I do not believe for one minute that you live in Norway! Why would somebody in that nation waste time on here defending a bastard like Bush? Stop making stuff up on here!
April 23rd, 2006 at 5:54 amJay Randal,
Seixon LOL > I do not believe for one minute that you live in Norway! Why would somebody in that nation waste time on here defending a bastard like Bush? Stop making stuff up on here!
That’s what happens when you insulate your mind with Yes Men and only people who think the same jibberish as you do. I’m not defending Bush, I am telling you morons that you are all being lied to and suckered by a bunch of liars. I’m trying to wake you up to the truth. Look, Rove hasn’t been indicted, even though Shuster said he would be on Friday. This is the same thing we heard months ago, where all the left-wing commentators were talking about Rove going down, then it never happened. It’s all wishful partisan thinking.
If you don’t believe I live in Norway, just have an admin check my IP.
The only one making up stuff is Think Progress and David Shuster.
Now I let you get back to your regularly scheduled program of made up stories and loose innuendo meant to string you along on your pathetic existence. Rove is gonna be indicted!(Oh wait… that didn’t turn out… what to do…. ah ha!) Rice is going to be indicted! (Hmm… let’s see… if this doesn’t turn out true, we’ll need to line another item up so the sheep don’t notice that things are falling apart… hmmm)
This goes on and on and on. One lie after the other, and you never notice that they never materialize because you are too addicted to the newest fabricated story.
April 23rd, 2006 at 11:19 amSo Sexion, Juan Cole, Frank Rich and Murray Waas are liars? Here is a link from Factcheck.org for everyone to read. What they believe is up to them. I like the quote coming from the CIA’s statement dated June, 17, 2003. So before Joe Wilson said a in the NY Times, the CIA had made up their own mind. Tell me I’m wrong.http://www.factcheck.org/article222.html
April 23rd, 2006 at 12:40 pmhttp://www.factcheck.org/article222.html
April 23rd, 2006 at 12:43 pmSeixon, if you are indeed a moderate independent living in Norway, I would expect an objective view on what is going on in the United States. Why is it you change people’s words, then call the change a lie?
Case in point, Shuster said, “…we’ve known for months that in the Scooter Libby indictment when they refer to Official A, Official A is Karl Rove…prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald when he designates somebody as Official A in an indictment, that person eventually does get indicted themselves.”
You rephrased Shuster, “Look, Rove hasn’t been indicted, even though Shuster said he would be on Friday….The only one making up stuff is Think Progress and David Shuster…This goes on and on and on. One lie after the other…”
Again, Shuster said “”that person eventually does get indicted”
You said Shuster said “Rove hasn’t been indicted, even though Shuster said he would be on Friday”
Your posts do not indicate the position of a moderate, but of an apologist for the Bush regime. If you do indeed dogmatically accept the current Administration’s view of the truth as gospel as your posts indicate, then say so.
Meanwhile, as far as Rove goes, the jury’s still out.
April 23rd, 2006 at 4:21 pmChimp, Chumpsfeld & “Daisy Chainy”….three glassy eyed Crackhouse Rats, high on the glass pipe
May 7th, 2006 at 4:12 pmof Military Power corrupted absolutely,
cornered in this sinking ship of fools….
My question…Will they get even crazier in their increasing isolation?
as we float, indolently adrift, toward Liberation Day….less than three years Hence
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