VIDEO: Powell Says U.S. Went Into Iraq Without Enough Troops
VIDEO: Powell Says U.S. Went Into Iraq Without Enough Troops
In an interview aired today on Britain’s ITV, former Secretary of State Colin Powell said that the U.S. went into Iraq without enough troops. Powell said he always “favored a larger military presence.†Prior to the invasion Powell made the case to Rumsfeld and President Bush but was overruled. As a result Powell said we didn’t have “enough force there at the time to impose order.†Watch it:
Transcript:
POWELL: There were debates about the size of the force and there were serious debates about the way in which we would deal with the aftermath, and the aftermath turned out to be much more difficult than anyone had anticipated.
Q: More difficult than you had even foreseen?
POWELL: Than anyone had anticipated, and even more than anyone, including myself, had foreseen. But just because you didn’t foresee it, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have planned for the unforeseen. I have always been one who favored a larger military presence in an operation to make sure that you can deal with the unforeseen, but in the case of the aftermath of the fall of Baghdad, you had institutions being destroyed, you had ministries being burned down, and I have said on many occasions I don’t think we had enough force there at that time to impose order. That’s what we were responsible for, because when you have taken out a government, a regime, then you become responsible for the country.
[snip]
POWELL: I made the case to General Franks and Secretary Rumsfeld before the president though that it was not sure we had enough troops, and so the case was made. It was listened to. It was considered. And those responsible for the troop levels, Mr Rumsfeld and General Franks, and the joint chiefs of staff, which include the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, believed they had the appropriate troop level.
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Can we now add Powell to the growing list of disgruntled retired generals?
April 30th, 2006 at 9:50 amYOU WENT TO IRAQ ILLEGALLY AND MURDERED 180,000 men women and Children
April 30th, 2006 at 9:55 amI'm guessing Colin Powell didn't buy into Bush being on 'God's Mission' either? That angels and Jesus were going to prevent the deaths of our soldiers and thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians? No wonder he quit.
Well, I'm glad he's come forward. Seems we still needed another nail in the Neo-con coffin.
April 30th, 2006 at 9:58 amI do NOT care what Powell has to say because he helped the Bush Regime to mislead the American people into allowing our military to occupy Iraq to seize its Oil fields for greedy Oil Cartel CEOs! Powell lied to the Congress, the UN, and the American citizenry, but now he tries to exonerate himself so he can get elected to some political office someday > shame on him!!!
April 30th, 2006 at 10:02 amHere's the thing about Powell: I used to view this guy as trustworthy. I think a lot of Americans did. When he went in front of the UN and made the case that Iraq had and was actively pursuing WMDs, it was convincing. Had he not done so, had he come forward at that time and said, you know what - the intelligence is spotty at best, things could have turned. But he didn't. This guy can suck it as far as I'm concerned.
April 30th, 2006 at 10:03 amYou beat me to it Jay.
April 30th, 2006 at 10:05 amColin....you're about 3 years too late getting a conscience. I for one dont buy your mea culpa. Try again when someone cares Col.
April 30th, 2006 at 10:07 amPost 6 we think alike DrSinker > hopefully more Americans have similar feelings about Powell, so that he can never get back into any political position in Washington, DC, ever again!
April 30th, 2006 at 10:11 amHe also disagrees with the decision to disband the Iraqi army:
"We didn’t need to do it at that point,†he said. “We might have been able to bring them back in some form. As a result, we had several hundred thousand unemployed people.â€
http://www.elon.edu/e-net/news_releases.asp?id=914875&
April 30th, 2006 at 10:16 amI too, at one time, had a little respect for Colin Powell, but it quickly went down the drain after his UN debacle, when half of the country knew he was lying.
The man went too far, too fast. He now says he tried to get more troops into Iraq. Why did he not try to get troops out of Iraq in the first place. He drank the kool-aid and helped make up the lies.
By the way, as proof that he went too far, too fast, his permanent rank, the one on which is retirement pay is based is Colonel.
April 30th, 2006 at 10:20 amDon't be blinded by your disdain here. There are still people who value what Powell has to say. Let him talk to those people. Let him add another straw to the proverbial camel's back here. The more we get against the Bush Regime the better.
April 30th, 2006 at 10:21 amTell us why you lied, Colin. You owe us that much, at the very least.
April 30th, 2006 at 10:31 amWhy now Colin, why now?
You went to the United Nations, and you lied to them and us, with your Hollywood graphics, and faulty intelligence. You knew what the truth was, but you choose to spin the facts to fit the rational to go to war with Iraq. How many innocent people are now dead because of George W. Bush's 'Nobel War'?
You maybe a man of great integrity, but unfortunately you let yourself down, and your country by letting the hawks in Bush's cabinet walk all over you. You are a man who has seen combat at first hand, and served your country with great distinction. A man who has seen the horror of war, and what it does to those that are caught-up in its destruction.
You may have been a dove to the hawks of Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and the rest of the Neocon Mafiosi. But growing some talons now, is three years too late.
April 30th, 2006 at 10:35 amNo one let the Nazi underlings get away with the "I didn't agree with the Fuhrer but I went along and supported his actions", neither should Powell be allowed to claim he really didn't believe in what was being done.
April 30th, 2006 at 10:43 amThat makes 9 generals.
-GSD
April 30th, 2006 at 10:45 amHe just hates America and wants the terrorists to win.
April 30th, 2006 at 10:45 amIt's easy for him to admit this now. It used to be that an admission like his would destroy a person. Not in our culture. He's a celebrity now making $100,000 speaking fees, and the rules are different. He's got it made and the public doesn't care, no matter how many people die in Iraq because of his lies.
http://www.homelanddecency.com -- "marching proudly backwards to the future"
April 30th, 2006 at 10:50 ampowell is a satanist. I can't stand a pacifist commie like that who is a real chickenshit. He has not served his country like the noble President and Vice President have. They gave everything to serving their country and to make it free.
Anyone who is a democrat basically hates america. No.16 don't you dare mock!
Just wait you peaceniks, in January 2009 a bold new administration will take place composed of Cheney as President and Rumsfeld as VP. As Secretary of State, we will have Richard Perle, and John Bolten as NSA. Paul Wolfowitz as Defense, and Sam Brownback as Homeland Security. Tom Delay as Attorney General, and Anne Coulter as a Secretary of Agriculture? Education?. We will win America!!!!
April 30th, 2006 at 10:54 ampowell is a satanist. I can't stand a pacifist commie like that who is a real chickenshit. He has not served his country like the noble President and Vice President have. They gave everything to serving their country and to make it free.
Anyone who is a democrat hates america. No.16 don't you dare mock!
Just wait you peaceniks, in January 2009 a bold new administration will take place composed of Cheney as President and Rumsfeld as VP. As Secretary of State, we will have Richard Perle, and John Bolten as NSA. Paul Wolfowitz as Defense, and Sam Brownback as Homeland Security. Tom Delay as Attorney General, and Anne Coulter as a Secretary of Agriculture? Education?. We will win America!!!!
April 30th, 2006 at 10:55 amGO ANVILHEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!! (NO.19)
BURN THEM ALL!!!! GOD SAID HERE IS THE EARTH; TAKE IT, RAPE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We had to go to war cause of the WMD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND WE FOUND THEM!!
April 30th, 2006 at 10:58 amYEEEEHAAAA!!!
Where were you earlier Colin? Like in October 2004?
http://www.lcoliberal.blogspot.com
April 30th, 2006 at 10:59 amColbert on W: Right now on LCL
Basically, anyone who supports the Republicans and Bush are sheer cold blooded murderers. As a returned soldier from Iraq I can tell you what I have seen; I was stationed in Baghdad and I saw 4yo girls with legs and arms blown off with OUR WEAPONS! And we wonder why the world hates us? Nobody, none of the troops there believe in this....they are dying....up to 100 000 iraqi innocent civilians because of that bastard George Bush. He is a sheer evil killer. I saw sheer chaos on the streets, and you certainly know things are bad when Amnesty Intl actually finds things were much better under Saddam!!!!
All those who supported the war, you are chickenhawks. Go over there yourself you total cowards. I pray to God there is one hot hell waiting for you after this life, because you all deserve to burn for the lives you yourselves have taken!!!! Do you know what it is like to see a dead pregnant woman on the road with her fetus hanging out?? You caused that, and all because you are too evil and ignorant to get off your fat overgrown super-sized me arses. The world hates us, and too right! We now are tarred forever. I was in Australia recently, and I had pple asking me where my agent orange was.....
April 30th, 2006 at 11:06 amIt's TOO LATE NOW isn't it Colin?
April 30th, 2006 at 11:07 amThat was sheer hysteria steve (23) you do not deserve to fight in our army. we are fighting a nobel cause. may you be barred forever. I myself have not been to iraq, but I hear on the TV that all iraqis like us.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:09 am#23
If only more people listened to you, and the other soldiers who have really been over there.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:11 amTo bad he didn't have the Balls to say I Lied to To The United Nations and help to decieved (lied) to the American People and to The World in oreder to help the Neo Cons and Big Oil destroy Iraq and The Iraqi People for their OIL ( Operation Iraq Liberation = Liberating Iraqi of Oil )
I no Longer respect colin powell he lost me with his little(bush coke bottle) at the U.N. table of lies.........
April 30th, 2006 at 11:12 amThat was sheer hysteria steve (23) you do not deserve to fight in our army.
#25 You aren't fit to even breath my American air. Go to hell.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:14 amThat was sheer hysteria steve (23) you do not deserve to fight in our army.
#25 You are the coward. Why don't you sign up and go defend what you support.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:15 amI no Longer respect colin powell he lost me with his little(bush coke bottle) at the U.N. table of lies………
I agree. Colin's hands are covered and bathed in the blood of innocents. I hope his mistakes haunts him till the day he dies.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:17 amI see we have a couple of comedians today.
Too funny! Thanks for the laughs.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:21 amIf a retired general, in a very important position in your GOP needs 4 years to admit the things that all the people in the streets of Europe, Asia and America were saying, you're really in great problems with your GOP.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:21 amYOU'RE TOO LATE GENERAL ! YOU SHOULD HAVE RESIGNED IMMEDIATELY !
April 30th, 2006 at 11:21 amAND YOU SHOULD HAVE SPOKEN IMMEDIATELY AGSINST THIS FOOLISH WAR .YOU LEARNED NOTHING FROM VIET NANM , GENERAL .
Church out already?
What happened to messages of peace and love and honor among men coming from the pulpit? What's with all the violence and venom? Especially for the Middle East from which Christianity sprang?
Well, thanks for staying out of the grocery stores on Sunday mornin, at least. Certainly makes my day much more peaceful.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:24 amThat was sheer hysteria steve (23) you do not deserve to fight in our army.
#25 You aren’t fit to even breath my American air. Go to hell.
Comment by bushsucks
April 30th, 2006 at 11:25 am-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think The Colonel was just being facetious Bushsuchs. Read his last sentence, his tongue was firmly in his cheek when he wrote it. Take a chill-pill; you should be able to tell those that are being serious with their nasty comments, from those that are trying to have a laugh, and pulling someone’s leg.
Weren't there educated, non-political planners? Weren't there civilian and military personnel swarming over details of the Middle East and the probabilities of outcomes? Don't they have mathematical models?
It seems we used brawn instead of brains, and the Iraq debacle is what we got.
One gets the feeling that the civilian Defense Policy Board, Cheney, Rumsfeld ignored all and ramrodded their way into this war. And doesn't it seem they get rich, their cronies get rich, and the rest of us foot the bill financially - for generations - and with our lives, and our country is neglected (i.e., Katrina, education, healthcare, environment, alternative energy, alternatives to oil).
So the million dollar question is, "Why did we really invade Iraq?" If it was so right, and truthful, why was it necessary to lie and exploit the war with propaganda "Bring It On", "Mission Accomplishmed", "Shock and Awe", Pat Tillman, Jessica Lynch, etc., etc.
If those guys wanted it so bad, then why didn't they want to do it right? It seems they had no "plan b", c, d... or an exit strategy. Are they that arrogant? Incompetent? What is it?
I now the administration hired Tony Snow for more "snow jobs", and merged with FOX, so the possiblity of truth is looking even slimmer, but at this point in the situation, wouldn't the truth be easier and have more impact?
April 30th, 2006 at 11:26 amToo funny! Thanks for the laughs.
Comment by Lily — April 30, 2006 @ 11:21 am
Hysterial, huh? That anyone could possibly think that Bush and Cheney "served" while 'Colonel' Powell did not. Pretty good satire. I think even Stephen Colbert would be impressed.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:27 amBlessings to you Steve and all who have been forced to serve under these madmen, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and all in office now. Many of us are aware of the genocide in Iraq and the world caused by them. Our best hope now is to get them all out of office, try them for war crimes and treason and get our country back on track.
Powell is like all the rest, now he wants to be the flavor of the year because he sees the tide turning. No more political clout for you Powell, you are a lier paid and sucked up to the Bush bunch........
I see we have a dual named troll on today. Church must of let out early in her area....lead heads and traitors profesing to be americans have no other place to go. Keep spewing your hate and denial of truth all you want girley men. Join the fat, bloated no neck right winged bunch of Bush 32% all you want, your loosing team is going down for the count. Whats wrong.? the redstate site kick you out. LOL.LOL.LOL......
April 30th, 2006 at 11:29 amOops... make that "General" Powell.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:29 amHo, Hum--Generals always want "a larger military presence in an operation to make sure that you can deal with the unforeseen"--so what's new?
April 30th, 2006 at 11:43 amUnbelievable, note I never refere to Bush as the president or give him or any of his supporters their stolen titles. I show respect where it is earned and due. I have this thing in my head that say's if someone is a thief, lier and murderer they don't even get a Mr. or Ms. acknoledgment with their name. Just my way of showing how low on the ladder they are. I do a lot of rightful name calling, still my right as long as we have free speech. LOL. Didn't think you were refering to me not putting general in front of Powells name, just wanted to throw out my thoughts on titles. While Powell is a general he broke his oath in my eyes which is to protect all of us from foreign and domestic threats, that includes the terrible threats of our own government against us all..........Blessings
April 30th, 2006 at 11:47 amGOD BLESS YOU HONEY. FIND JESUS.
Comment by ANVILHEAD — April 30, 2006 @ 11:44 am
I'd say you're ice cold on that hunt yourself. Jesus was for peace, love and understanding. And, I'm pretty certain, he was not for typing with the Caps Lock 'on'. (Hint; It means you're a hate-filled lunatic).
April 30th, 2006 at 11:52 am#10. Lies and deception, no matter which side spins them, are still lies and deceptioin. Whatever the technicalities may be of Powell's military retirement grade I am positive his retired pay is not based on the grade of an O-6. The man was the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and retired as a 4 star general.
Do not take this as an endrosement of Powell but in studying his career he has been consistent even to a fault. Once a policy has been adopted, even those you oppose, salute and carry them out. The problem with Powell, in his civilian career, he lent his credibility to an administration that had considerably less. When this credibility was abused he had an obligatioin to let those whom he serve, us the American people, know what the score was. He should have resigned. Failing that, he squandered his reputation. And if Bush (Cheney) had not forced him out the door, he would still be bamboozling the American people. Powell has well earned his direpute. He has fallen a long way.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:52 amAnvilhead....your name should be changed to bullethead. Three years ago right now your boy was saying that IRAQNAM was the largest sponsor of terrorism....Now that he's lost that debacle you and the rest of the wing nuts say Iran is. What about North Korea you numbnuts?? They actually HAVE nukes....I guess they aren't that big a state sponsor of terrorism because they have no oil or other natural resources?
April 30th, 2006 at 11:57 amHay, Ledhead, thank's for your thoughts, last I heard Jesus was not lost so I don't need to find.......Next, all roads lead to the same place........Question for the year to you. Name the good Bush has done for our country and the world......Can you do that.? And please be sure it does not include. cutting, killing and drilling here and around the world.....Thank you. Keep in mind 9/ 11 was on his watch. Can you do that.?
April 30th, 2006 at 11:57 amYour have blood on your hands too Colin. Willingly or not. You can't come clean. So shut the F up.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:58 amSharon,
You might wanna call him 'george bush' then... since he doesn't even deserve the effort of typing Upper Case letters ; )
(I accidentally called Powell 'Colonel' instead of 'General'. Weird visual dyslexic thing I sometimes do when 'words like Colin' and 'Colonel' are similar in spelling. Should have referenced my own post in my correction... )
April 30th, 2006 at 11:58 amTommy Franks, the military general, also overruled Powell. Funny how Think Progress left that morsel out of the picture.
We may have needed more troops, we may not have. Simply claiming that having more would have made things better is speculation. In Afghanistan, where we have a much smaller footprint, the death rate among soldiers is nearly the same as it is in Iraq, where we have a much larger force. Thus, if we had more soldiers in Iraq, it's likely the death toll would now be 5000. Of course, that is just speculation. Just like the notion that we should have had more troops.
Easy to claim, not so easy to substantiate.
April 30th, 2006 at 12:05 pmLETS FIGHT FOR WHAT WE BELIEVE IN AND CARVE OURSELVES OUT A NICE MIDDLE-EAST EMPIRE.
Comment by ANVILHEAD — April 30, 2006 @ 12:05 pm
I didn't call you names, just gave you a lesson in etiquette (and coomon sense).
What we believe in is 'live and let live', global harmony and integrity in our politicians. Go over to http://www.congress.org and tell the butchers in the White House that Jesus sent you. Here, you're just wasting your time.
April 30th, 2006 at 12:09 pm#23 - Steve, I'm glad you're home safely. Thank you for your service, even in the face of the bold faced lies of this administration. I hope you continue commenting here.
April 30th, 2006 at 12:11 pmTHATS A GOOD DEAL IN MY BOOK.
Comment by ANVILHEAD — April 30, 2006 @ 12:10 pm
So then you're admitting that you are Satan?
April 30th, 2006 at 12:15 pm#50 - POWELL: I made the case to General Franks and Secretary Rumsfeld before the president though that it was not sure we had enough troops, and so the case was made. It was listened to. It was considered. And those responsible for the troop levels, Mr Rumsfeld and General Franks, and the joint chiefs of staff, which include the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, believed they had the appropriate troop level.
It helps if you read the whole post, Seixon. Have you signed up for duty in Iraq yet? I bet they'd let you do that from Norway. Unless you're a convicted felon, of course.
April 30th, 2006 at 12:15 pmYOU SHOULD THANK JESUS WE HAVE THE STRONGEST ARMY…. OR YOU’D BE DEAD AND YOUR PARTNER WOULD BE IN SOME CONCENTRATION CAMP.
Comment by ANVILHEAD — April 30, 2006 @ 12:15 pm
Never is a pretty absolutist word. There are no absolutes in human reality. So, we can have a majority of people living in peaceful conditions. We just have to put all the world's leaders on some deserted island in the Pacific and start over.
I don't believe in Jesus as anything other than a philosopher who was martyred against his intentions.
And how exactly do we have the strongest army when we're getting beaten up by an angry mob with pitchforks and torches?
Partner? I don't own my own business.
April 30th, 2006 at 12:20 pmUnless you’re a convicted felon, of course.
Comment by Zookeeper — April 30, 2006 @ 12:15 pm
You are hysterical.
Don't watch the movie 'Wolf Creek'... scared the living sh*t out of me. Demons at this age are not horrifying, but psycholtic 'based on a true story' serial killers sure are. But Pride and Prejudice had a happy ending (seeing as how you are probably due for a cheerful movie next :).
April 30th, 2006 at 12:24 pmPartner? I don’t own my own business.
April 30th, 2006 at 12:25 pm*snort*
#59 - But Pride and Prejudice had a happy ending (seeing as how you are probably due for a cheerful movie next :).
Ohhh, I love happy endings... ;)
April 30th, 2006 at 12:28 pmI'm a sucker for anything Jane Austen. Mmmmm, Mr. Darcy...
Stephen Colbert just arrived at the WH correspondent's dinner, he looks so nice. Valerie Plame Wilson and hubbie arrived a few minutes ago, she's SO pretty!
April 30th, 2006 at 12:30 pmOhhh, I love happy endings… ;)
I’m a sucker for anything Jane Austen. Mmmmm, Mr. Darcy…
Comment by Zookeeper — April 30, 2006 @ 12:28 pm
This was a great version. I think the most memorable that I've ever seen. You should check it out.
Gonna go watch Colbert. Be back shortly. Thanks for the heads up on that!
April 30th, 2006 at 12:37 pmNo DUH! Does that really surprise ANYONE?
Really, I'm tired of hearing the pissing and moaning from BOTH parties. Enogh lip service. It's time for ACTION.
April 30th, 2006 at 12:47 pmNo DUH! Does that really surprise ANYONE?
Really, I'm tired of hearing the pissing and moaning from BOTH parties. Enough lip service. It's time for ACTION.
April 30th, 2006 at 12:48 pmHOW ARE WE GETTING BEAT UP ? WE CONTROL THE COUNTRY. PERIOD.
SO WHAT IF 2400 KIDS HAD TO DIE. THATS “THE COST OF DOIN BIDNESSâ€
Comment by ANVILHEAD — April 30, 2006 @ 12:36 pm
Okay, I have a few minutes while they are handing out awards....
Well, for starters, if you 'control the country', 2400 kids wouldn't be dead, nor thousands of Iraqi civilians. That's the first clue.
The second is that it's been 3 years since mission accomplished, and we've lost 70 kids in this month alone.
The third is that the soldiers are coming back from Iraq in opposition to the war. As well as teh 8 generals who have stepped up to agree with them.
Do you need more?
April 30th, 2006 at 12:56 pmHeckofajob Colin;you made for a good Uncle Tom and house n****for a while.
April 30th, 2006 at 12:57 pmFIND JESUS.
Comment by ANVILHEAD
Why, Did you lose Him again??
ALL AT THE PALTRY COST OF 2400 SOULS…
Even one soul is too great a price. What we have gained is illusory.
IS THIS THE AGE OF AQUARIUS?
Yes, as a matter of fact, it is. Do you understand what that means?
THE WORLD RUNS ON GREED HATE EXPLOITATION MURDER AND WAR…..
That age is coming to an end, albeit not without its own death throes.
YOU SHOULD THANK JESUS WE HAVE THE STRONGEST ARMY…. OR YOU’D BE DEAD AND YOUR PARTNER WOULD BE IN SOME CONCENTRATION CAMP.
He who created the most notorious concentrations camps also did so in the name of Jesus.
Your way of thinking is headed towards extinction. I only pray you do not take the rest of the lifeforms on this globe with you.
April 30th, 2006 at 1:03 pmI've said it many times; Colin Powell is a coward.
April 30th, 2006 at 1:04 pmANVIL is advocating the deaths of thousands more American troops and calls himself a patriotic American citizen? Either his posts are very dark sarcasm or he is more crazy than Bush or Cheney?!
April 30th, 2006 at 1:15 pmHad a lot of respect for Powell, still do. I for one think they believed the inteligence, selective indeed. They believed what they wanted to believe and were wrong. Having said that Powell as Secretary of State did not rise to the office and exert the power and leadership the office required. Secretary of state should have more power than Defence in setting forign policy and openly oppose the president when he is wrong. I view the weakness of that office then and now as a serious problem. I feer the neocons are not dead yet. It may be too early to speak of coffins. World bank, case in point.
April 30th, 2006 at 1:32 pmAbout #63, Might I suggest the "silent treatment"? He does not merit any responses.
April 30th, 2006 at 1:44 pm19 ANVILHEAD Im glad your happy for the 2400th soldier killed today
April 30th, 2006 at 1:55 pmAbout #63, Might I suggest the “silent treatment� He does not merit any responses.
Comment by Cyra Brown — April 30, 2006 @ 1:44 pm
Sure. Though I don't think he is serious. I think it's comic relief.
April 30th, 2006 at 1:58 pmI just saw some of that interview with Powell -- when does a "good soldier" cease being one?
April 30th, 2006 at 2:00 pmWhen he aids and abets the lies and foolhardiness of the chimp-in-chief? Or when he retires and goes "public," subjecting himself to scorn and ridicule? It seems to me that the later takes more courage and intestinal fortitude, especially if it means that in addition to personal attacks, the end result attacks your pension as well.
Powell may attemtp to assuage the public and his conscience with these late-hour defenses, he is not succeeding with theformer and I hope he is not having success with the latter.
I always liked Powell - he seems to be an honest man in some cases. He deserves a shield to protect himself against the barrage of right-wing
April 30th, 2006 at 2:18 pmthere seems to be a common misconception that colin powell was a decent and honorable chap -- a person of integrity -- before he totally knucked under to the whims and fetishes of the evil cheney cabal. but his UN performance was just SOP for a guy with minimal conscience and principles -- going way back to his report on my lai at the beginning of his military career. find out a little more about ol' colin, and you'll see the real person behind the uniform was nowhere nearly as noble and credible than the stand-up guy image of his public persona. besides -- and some people have come close to pointing this out -- ol' colin never disavowed his support for the "mission" of illegally invading iraq, he's just another pathetic voice criticizing the execution, not the insane policy of regime change... if we'd sent 500,000 troops instead of 160,000 we may have tamped down the ensuing chaos, but the policy would still have been rotten. many of the generals who call for rumsfeld's resignation are not much better in this regard, but ol' colin has no reason, at this late date, to be criticizing the war, as he was in a position to do something about it, and were he a person of conscience would've done something when it could've made a difference. whereas now, i see nothing but a shameful effort to save face and salvage some sliver -- however tiny -- of his trashed reputation.
April 30th, 2006 at 2:23 pmMerits of Partitioning Iraq or Allowing Civil War Weighed
By Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, April 30, 2006; Page A18
As the U.S. military struggles against persistent sectarian violence in Iraq, military officers and security experts find themselves in a vigorous debate over an idea that just months ago was largely dismissed as a fringe thought: that the surest -- and perhaps now the only -- way to bring stability to Iraq is to divide the country into three pieces.
Those who see the partitioning of Iraq as increasingly attractive argue that separating the Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds may be the only solution to the violence that many experts believe verges on civil war. Others contend that it would simply lead to new and dangerous challenges for the United States, not least the possibility that al-Qaeda would find it easier to build a new base of operations in a partitioned Iraq.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/29/AR2006042901142.html
April 30th, 2006 at 2:25 pm#78 wpahnelas
April 30th, 2006 at 2:29 pmI think it was because of his role in the My Lai that Powell rose through the ranks.
#1 Colin Powell could (and should have) followed Cyrus Vances lead and resigned when he saw an administration policy doomed for failure. Powell had a hand in writing Air-Land battle which was the doctrine of the US military for fighting war, and the underlying stragety for the actual invasion that we would be greeted as liberators is completely idiotic as any HONEST military Officer would tell you as an assumption for invading another country. If the theroy was correct why the guns and bullets, the"enemy" had wine and roses waiting for us.....BULL....the war plan for the invasion for IRAQ until Rumsfeld came onboard had been a large military contingent, just ask one of Tommy Franks predisesors Gen. Anthony Zinni, who decroede the invasion plans and still does today, Rummy wanted to prove a policy that he was pushing of outsourcing the military as much as possible, and that ius the main reason that the second largest military presence in IRAQ today is not the British but the private military contractors like KBR..Blackwater. They get paid much more than US military personnel and are free from the constraints of the congress and UCMJ, ever wonder why soo many of the people who were at ABU GHRAIBE that were doing the interrorgations were not actually charged, they were private contractors.
#2 FIND JESUS.
Comment by ANVILHEAD
You mean the Jesus who said,
Matthew 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God.
Matthew 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 5:39 But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer. But whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well.
Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘hate your enemy.’ 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemy and
pray for those who persecute you, 5:45 so that you may be like your Father in heaven, since he causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 5:46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Even the tax collectors do the same, don’t they? 5:47 And if you only greet your brothers, what more do you do? Even the Gentiles do the same, don’t they? 5:48 So then, be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect
Matthew 6:19 “Do not accumulate for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal. 6:20 But accumulate for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and thieves do not break in and steal. 6:21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If then your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light. 6:23 But if your eye is diseased, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
6:24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money
Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 7:2 For by the standard you judge you will be judged, and the measure you use will be the measure you receive. 7:3 Why do you see the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to see the beam of wood in your own? 7:4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye,’ while there is a beam in your own? 7:5 You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Luke 8:3 The experts in the law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught committing adultery. They made her stand in front of them 8:4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of adultery. 8:5 In the law Moses commanded us to stone to death such women. What then do you say?†8:6 (Now they were asking this in an attempt to trap him, so that they could bring charges against him.) Jesus bent down and wrote on the ground with his finger. 8:7 When they persisted in asking him, he stood up straight and replied, “Whoever among you is guiltless may be the first to throw a stone at her.†8:8 Then he bent over again and wrote on the ground.
8:9 Now when they heard this, they began to drift away one at a time, starting with the older ones, until Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 8:10 Jesus stood up straight and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?†8:11 She replied, “No one, Lord.†And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you either. Go, and from now on do not sin any more.â€
Coulld that be the Jesus you speak of Anvilhead.....because it is the Jesus that Mahatma Gahndi and Martin Luther King did, and they were the two most influential philosopher activists of the 20th century, and both achieved great changes in the societies with out guns or deaths like you openly advocate. But then again neither was particularily worried about their bank accounts, stock portfolios, or personnal worth as much as their fellow man and woman's welfare and future.
Remember the Jesus you advocate us to find has something to say to you as well,
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven – only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 7:22 On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds?’ 7:23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’
April 30th, 2006 at 2:49 pmI guess this is why Colin Powell is no longer serving as Secretary of State. But to go overseas and trash talk the current administration when we have soldiers of the ground is disgusting. But as criticizing Bush overseas is favourite past time of many progs, I am certain the majority here are delighted.
April 30th, 2006 at 3:24 pm#79, unbelievable, I sincerely hope such a partition never occurs as this was once the failed policy of my country when retreating from imperialism. Just look how difficult the relations between India and Pakistan remain to this day. Dividing a country along religious lines creates a permanent system of intercene warmongering via border disputes/lack of empathy/relentless mutual hatred.
April 30th, 2006 at 3:26 pmBut as criticizing Bush overseas is favourite past time of many progs, I am certain the majority here are delighted.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — April 30, 2006 @ 3:24 pm
Most of us have not traveled overseas but if you mean that speaking the truth to the idoit president is critising him well so be it.
April 30th, 2006 at 3:31 pm#23 - Dear Steve, Thank you for your service. As Republican who supports the efforts of the administration I am thrilled that Saddam Hussein is no longer in control of the Iraqi government. My brother is active duty military and he disagrees with your sweeping assessment. He said he was shocked at your surprise "that war is hell."
Deqar Sharon - Your disrespect is noted. I try to always remember to address our former President as President Clinton. It's a matter of good manners and upbringing.
April 30th, 2006 at 3:41 pmDividing a country along religious lines creates a permanent system of intercene warmongering via border disputes/lack of empathy/relentless mutual hatred.
Comment by British Gary — April 30, 2006 @ 3:26 pm
Then, it's probably what Bush will do. He always picks the wrong curtain, and we all wind up with the booby prize.
I'm finding it harder and harder tounderstand tehvalue of organized religion. All it seems to fester is hatred and violence.
April 30th, 2006 at 3:42 pmHe said he was shocked at your surprise “that war is hell.â€
Comment by mighty aphrodite — April 30, 2006 @ 3:41 pm
Do you not realize that you are a liar and it is obvious?
Steve just posted this, and instantly you know what your brother, over in Iraq, has to directly say to someone he has no idea even exists?
Don't try to spin it. You're a bad, bad liar and it's blinding it's so apparent.
April 30th, 2006 at 3:46 pm[...] Yet I say stop and look. Gaze at the larger picture. Are we in such dire straights in this country that it is declared a grand occasion when Collin Powell said we didn’t have enough troops? A time to pop champagne corks a comedian gives Bush a bit of criticism? It’s somehow a win when the guy who says “No comment” “I can’t say anything” gets changed with a guy who says the same thing more charismatically? [...]
April 30th, 2006 at 3:47 pmIt’s a matter of good manners and upbringing.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — April 30, 2006 @ 3:41 pm
Neither of which you possess, so it must just be a gaping coincidence.
April 30th, 2006 at 3:48 pmThe Powell Doctrine
...there is something worse than Country X going down, which is Country X going down and taking our credibility and $10 billion of our money with it...
I guess in the case of Iraq it will be closer to 1 trillion and over of our money, which doesn't include the long-term care of those that served.
April 30th, 2006 at 4:03 pm#86, I’m finding it harder and harder tounderstand tehvalue of organized religion. All it seems to fester is hatred and violence.
Comment by unbelievable
I think it's not so much the organised religions as these all espouse peace (for the moderates). It's the individual not taking responsibility for the true message of their beliefs and choosing an attitude of arrogance.
April 30th, 2006 at 4:07 pmI also think organised religion attracts the arrogant, generally speaking, as who else would think themselves something so special that they are going to 'live forever'?
I think it’s not so much the organised religions as these all espouse peace (for the moderates). It’s the individual not taking responsibility for the true message of their beliefs and choosing an attitude of arrogance.
I think it's the 'organized' part of religion that is the problem. No one person wages a war because their personal god or gods individually told them to do so. It's only when it becomes a patriarchal heirarchy with a written text that it seems to amalgamate hate for others and a need to be right through crusades, inquisitions, jihads, and the sort.
I have no problem with individual ideologies that include spiritual elements. In fact, I think that most people prefer that. It's just the mongered fear from the pulpits that keep the fanatics chined by blind faith to their perpetual war for righteousness.
I also think organised religion attracts the arrogant, generally speaking, as who else would think themselves something so special that they are going to ‘live forever’?
Comment by British Gary — April 30, 2006 @ 4:07 pm
Yeah, no doubt, arrogant to say the least.
One day, having been raised on Christianity, I thought about it. I mean really thought about living forever. No thanks. It's a sentance of insanity if you really live forever. The human mind can barely handle 80 years as it is. SOme don't even make it that far before going insane. There's a few lurking around here that haven't even made it half way there without losing all their marbles entirely. So, forever? Forget that!
April 30th, 2006 at 4:21 pmIM THE REAL PATRIOT AROUND HERE WITH 52% OF AMERICA WITH ME AND BUSH ON THIS ONE WE SHOULD NUKE THE WORLD AND THE AMERICAN DEMOCRATS AND TAKE THE WORLD TO OURSELF
WE GET TO KEEP THE OIL THAT WAY
YOU LOT DONT GET IT SO WHAT IF WE LOSE 2400 MARINES WHO GIVES A SHIT ITS A COST THAT HAS TO BE PAID TO KEEP THE WORLDS OIL TO OURSELFS
YOU LIBERALS MAKE ME SICK PEACE AND HAPPINESS - WHAT GOOD IS THAT IF YOU DONT HAVE A CAR TO TRAVEL IN
April 30th, 2006 at 4:37 pmI think it’s the ‘organized’ part of religion that is the problem.
Comment by unbelievable
I know how you feel - I've felt this frustration for a long time too but if every individual took responsibility for themselves then every organisation would be peaceful. I think you cannot reason a faceless 'text' or 'organisation' is at fault as these are a consequence of collective individuals, it is how individuals choose to think, speak and behave, especially when in groups, that bear responsibility for the hatred within all organised religions. What you describe is the process by which the hatred of many individuals is organised. With or without religions, the arrogant would find a way to organise their hatred e.g. politics/race hate etc.
April 30th, 2006 at 4:41 pmI am an atheist and I observe organised religion has a value best served to the elderly or those who have lost a young child/loved one and are in need of some form of comfort. I think the comforts are a form of deceit but nevertheless, a form of great comfort.
Real American Patriot one wish I have is to die one microsecond after you so i can stand behind you and watch your explanation to GOD for the drivel spittle you spew, and see how you justify the blood and killing for oil for your gas guzzling suv's.
April 30th, 2006 at 4:44 pmI am an atheist and I observe organised religion has a value best served to the elderly or those who have lost a young child/loved one and are in need of some form of comfort. I think the comforts are a form of deceit but nevertheless, a form of great comfort.
Comment by British Gary — April 30, 2006 @ 4:41 pm
Whenever we have issues, I tend to think it's systems that are inept the majority of tehtime. It's why I don't like pre-programmed ideologies. I think everyone should have his or her own.
The 'organized' part turns people into pack mentalities that are encouraged by those who exploit them for personal power and control. I've seen countless psychological evaluations of people who choose to be priests and bishops and preachers. They are people who like to control others. It is through that control that organized religions tend to breed contempt. Contempt of one religion against another, for how can you be the chosen people if someone else is also claiming that moniker? And therefore, the 'oganized' part actually becomes segregation and isolation and not at all organized anything.
I am also an atheist when it comes to the existing gods that people claim are supreme beings, but agnostic to the possibility of something we do not have the ability to comprehend.
I just don't think Jews and Muslims would be killing one another without the words 'Jew' and 'Muslim' in the first place - and that is, to me, what organized religion mostly represents - a fracturing of humanity into sub-cultures that hate and seperate.
April 30th, 2006 at 4:52 pmWatch out when you see people say "we did not invade with a large enough force." That is a subtle lie. Truth is: we did not have the several hundred thousand troops that General Shinseki says we needed. So the choice was invade with too few troops or not invade at all. And this group of neo-con chicken-hawks were detremined to invade even BEFORE they took office, long before September 11, 2001.
The ONLY way we could have invaded with the size of force Shinseki recommended (and Powell NOW says he supported), was to have instituted a draft. And Bush & Co. know a draft would mean ALL Americans would have paid more attention to the purported rationale for invading, and would have refused him his authorization.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:03 pmBritish Gary Amen!
April 30th, 2006 at 5:07 pmUnbelievable
After twenty years of Catholic upbringing, I couldn't abide it any longer and left for the protestant church. After twenty years there, I have left that too.
Clif has it right as he quotes the Bible - while I don't adhere to any organized religion, I do believe there are lessons in the Bible that apply to all human beings; compassion being number one.
Perhaps God is in all of us, and we call it conscience.
Too many are like the self-righteous Pharisees, who boast of their "love" of God and their pride of their fine clothing and gold, denigrating the poor beggar who has nothing and dares to "dirty" the temple.
unbelievable, exactly - individuals choosing not to follow the teachings of their own so-called beliefs but irresponsibly choosing to dominate/control others for their self gratification. It is these people as well as many arrogant/idle-minded individuals who swallow teachings without thought that give organisations a bad name. Just imagine what the world would be like if all the religious people actually were tolerant and peaceful? I guess we would be writing about how wonderful organised religions are, misguided, but a great benefit to mankind.
I agree that everyone should have their own ideology as evidenced by the consequences of human arrogance and complacency in practically any organisation.
My ideology is one world, one flag to symbolise no-going back, one country comprised of many provinces sharing planetary resources. Each province with their own unique culture, architecture, music, language (and a world language), food, a single currency and a single government democratically elected from the Prime Ministers and Presidents from around the world. It's the bureaucracy of such a system that gives me nightmares.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:10 pmMarie that is one reason I choose to quote Christs words, he says things much better and it reminds those who should know better what might be in store for them for ignoring his words. It might even get a few of them to think about it and change.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:13 pmIt’s the bureaucracy of such a system that gives me nightmares.
Comment by British Gary — April 30, 2006 @ 5:10 pm
Gary it is not the actual bureaucracy but who chooses what it would look like and who to control it that would give me pause, ever enlarging centers of power lead to ever enlarging centers of power that is very corrupting, thus your one world solution could lead to a system where a very small minority uses the centers of power to enslave the rest of the world, by limiting the rest of us to a system where each year we slip ever slightly behind and have to work that much harder to maintain the status quo...
April 30th, 2006 at 5:18 pmPerhaps God is in all of us, and we call it conscience.
Comment by Marie — April 30, 2006 @ 5:07 pm
Ever read the Gospel of St. Thomas? The part about god being inside you and all around you? Like that?
I am amenable to that. That if there is a god, then it is the thing that separates us from a corpse or a tree from a pile of fire wood or a bear from a shaggy hearthside rug. Life.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:25 pmhi Clif, I completely agree with you and therefore such a system could not operate unless there were effective measures against corruption as well as over-bureaucracy. I wonder if public polygraph tests of all government officials would suffice? Fail any anti-corruption questions and you've earned a one-way ticket to bubba's palace.
On topic, why is Colin whoreing himself over here? How much did he get paid for his little admission? If he thinks his insincerity is going to earn any kudos from the Brits he can pack his bags and go elsewhere.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:32 pmMy ideology is one world, one flag to symbolise no-going back, one country comprised of many provinces sharing planetary resources. Each province with their own unique culture, architecture, music, language (and a world language), food, a single currency and a single government democratically elected from the Prime Ministers and Presidents from around the world. It’s the bureaucracy of such a system that gives me nightmares.
Comment by British Gary — April 30, 2006 @ 5:10 pm
Well said Gary! I couldn't agree more. I think many people would like to live that way. The way we used to - in harmony with one another and the world, universe, and beyond.
Have you ever read 'Ishmael' by Daniel Quinn? If not, it is a brilliant description of what went wrong and how our current mess all essentially ties back to the point in human anthropolical evolution when people decided to start 'locking up the food'. Creating heirarchies and boundaries and borders.
Some quotes form the book:
"No creation story is a myth to the people who tell it. It’s just the story." -
"And in spite of all the mastery we’ve attained, we don’t have enough mastery to stop devastating the world – or to repair the devastation we’ve already wrought."
"But why? Why do you need prophets to tell you how you ought to live? Why do you need anyone to tell you how you ought to live?"
"I have amazing news for you. Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely."
"The world of the Takers is one vast prison, and except for a handful of Leavers scattered across the world, the entire human race is now inside that prison."
"The rule of that law was and is sufficient. Mankind was not needed to bring order to the world."
http://www.geocities.com/happymonster313/Quotes/Ishmael/Ishmael.html
April 30th, 2006 at 5:33 pm#85. My brother is active duty military and he disagrees with your sweeping assessment. He said he was shocked at your surprise “that war is hell.â€
Comment by mighty aphrodite — April 30, 2006 @ 3:41 pm
You claim you have a brother on active duty. We're also supposed to believe you're a lawyer. You're credibility on the latter claim is zero, which discredits the former.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:38 pmHow interesting that the internet gives us instant communication avenues to cement One Worlders together....
Unbeliever - Steve thanks you for posting for him - he was far too angry to let his fingers do the talking.
My brother and I discussed our views re: Mother-of-the-Year, Cindy Sheehan and Father-of-the-Year, Fernando Suarez del Solar. He also noted a couple of weeks ago the high numbers of ex-military who now show up in the whiners column, often enjoyed less than stellar military reviews and ratings. No surprise there!!
April 30th, 2006 at 5:40 pmPost 93 > You are NOT an American patriot, because you are a Bush loving fascist! Shame on you for spewing your crap on this TP thread! You need to be put into a mental institution before you physically harm other people! You need massive therapy!!!
April 30th, 2006 at 5:41 pmGary it is not the actual bureaucracy but who chooses what it would look like
Comment by Clif — April 30, 2006 @ 5:18 pm
A true Democracy? Many Native American tribes were headless democracies or benevolent oligarchies. Very few were controlled by a single leader. And studies have shown them to have been helathier and longer-lived than their Industrializing European contemporaries.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:41 pmor a bear from a shaggy hearthside rug
Comment by unbelievable
LOL!
We humans generally despise thinking about our own mortality and irrelevance. We have to be at the centre of the Universe, we live forever, we are the dominant lifeform. As to the latter, I argue we are for the time being but wait for good old evolution to kick out some truly vicious bugs from somewhere near the Congo.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:44 pmI wonder if public polygraph tests of all government officials would suffice? Fail any anti-corruption questions and you’ve earned a one-way ticket to bubba’s palace.
Comment by British Gary — April 30, 2006 @ 5:32 pm
Who writes the questions and who administers the tests and who oversees them, still have human beings overseeing enormous amounts of power, which will become corrupting, as seen in the church, US Government, British Government, USSR, China, Russia(today)CPA(in Iraq) everywhere people are tempted to gain an advantage for themselves more rules and checks run by people will not fix any system run by people because each of us is fallible but most do not what to believe they individually are, just ask Pickles Bush about that.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:45 pmHow interesting that the internet gives us instant communication avenues to cement One Worlders together….
To someone in combat, you instantly had to discuss the posting of someone neither of you know on a random political blog instead of, oh, your children's lives, your career, your brother's life?
Bullshit. You lied and were caught. Your problem is that you think you are smarter than everyone else. You are not. There are others smarter than you who can see through your lies.
Unbeliever - Steve thanks you for posting for him - he was far too angry to let his fingers do the talking.
Sn now you're speaking for Steve. Do you have multiple personalities? One is you, one is Mr. A, one is your brother, the others are your various personalities we'd rather not meet?
My brother and I discussed our views re: Mother-of-the-Year, Cindy Sheehan and Father-of-the-Year, Fernando Suarez del Solar. He also noted a couple of weeks ago the high numbers of ex-military who now show up in the whiners column, often enjoyed less than stellar military reviews and ratings. No surprise there!!
Comment by mighty aphrodite — April 30, 2006 @ 5:40 pm
Nope. Not gonna sell me that nonsense. You specifically gave your brother's exact response directly to Steve. It was NOT a generalization you made. It was specific. And it was a big fat lie, like everything else you utter.
You lied. You were busted. End of story. Shoo.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:46 pmDear Braid Fairy - What you "think" or surmise about my brother is of no concern to me. You claim to be graduating from an ABA accredited Law School ("with Distinction")- I have seen little logic to demonstrate your claim.
You have been on a tear since I would not communicate with you privately - grow up. If you wish to discuss differing legal points, go play in your study group.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:47 pmA true Democracy? Many Native American tribes were headless democracies or benevolent oligarchies. Very few were controlled by a single leader. And studies have shown them to have been helathier and longer-lived than their Industrializing European contemporaries.
Comment by unbelievable — April 30, 2006 @ 5:41 pm
My ideology is one world, one flag to symbolise no-going back, one country comprised of many provinces sharing planetary resources. Each province with their own unique culture, architecture, music, language (and a world language), food, a single currency and a single government democratically elected from the Prime Ministers and Presidents from around the world. It’s the bureaucracy of such a system that gives me nightmares.
Comment by British Gary — April 30, 2006 @ 5:10 pm
See ther difference between the two?
April 30th, 2006 at 5:48 pmCliff, Marie and Unbelievable, we seem to have gotten off onto a theological tangent for a bit. If I may, a different viewpoint.
I was raised WASP. In my youth I studied the Sermon on the Mount and the Tao Te Ching.
A little over 2 years ago, I began a new path, that of a Shaman. I sense that which we call God as a consciousness, external to our own, yet we are all part of it, just as all matter is energy at a different level of vibration.
Much of contemporary dogma views God as some external Male Deity. I believe the earlier pagan thinking was closer to a correct perception of God. God exists in all things and is both male/female. And God encompasses the full spectrum, from absolute black to pure white, and all the shades in between.
But that's just my view.
Peace and Blessings,
April 30th, 2006 at 5:51 pmunbeliever - I enjoy ignoring you more than wasting bytes on your suppositions, "feelings", or Gnostic musings....
April 30th, 2006 at 5:52 pmWe humans generally despise thinking about our own mortality and irrelevance.
I agree. I was in a serious funk for a good year once I came to the nihilistic realization that there was no purpose. What made me okay with it was in the further realization that I was my own god, so to speak. That it was pure freedom - the freedom to decide my own purpose, and if so inclined, to chane it upon my own whim. I am not at the mercy of a puppet master, but am truly free. After that break-through, I knew that I would never go back to forcing some pre-determined ideology upon myself. That Iw ould write my own.
We have to be at the centre of the Universe, we live forever, we are the dominant lifeform.
I am now convinced that onlythose who live for tomorrow feel that way. That if today is all you are certain, they why would eternity be a consideration? I like the Buddhist view on this - that wasting the present for pondering teh unknowable is a waste of the present.
As to the latter, I argue we are for the time being but wait for good old evolution to kick out some truly vicious bugs from somewhere near the Congo.
Comment by British Gary — April 30, 2006 @ 5:44 pm
LOL! Yes, and it seems that the bugs are winning...
April 30th, 2006 at 5:52 pmunbeliever - I enjoy ignoring you more than wasting bytes on your suppositions, “feelingsâ€, or Gnostic musings….
Comment by mighty aphrodite — April 30, 2006 @ 5:52 pm
Translation: "I. Mighty Liar, do not have a valid argument in my defense."
No sh*t. Go attend to your hamsters now. I'm sure your vermin 'children' appreciate you more than any of us ever will.
It's because you refuse to be human. Try it. You might find what you are looking for instead.
After all, you are a mirror of your actions - and you only get what you give. Give some compassion some time and you might find yourself receiving some. The lies and hatred only get you more of the same.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:56 pmHave you ever read ‘Ishmael’ by Daniel Quinn?
Comment by unbelievable
No, I will order this and read it, thanks for the recommendation and quotes.
As to headless democracies, I think this is the problem the UN suffers from at the moment - it is essentially leaderless and impotent. Having a strong leader to rally behind may be what the UN needs right now - it certainly focused the Romans but what corruption!
April 30th, 2006 at 5:57 pmunbeliever - I enjoy ignoring you
Comment by mighty aphrodite — April 30, 2006 @ 5:52 pm
April 30th, 2006 at 5:58 pmWhy not enjoy ignoring us all together and go away you could enjoy your self in any fasion you'd like and we would happier not to have your druel and spittle on our screens.
See ther difference between the two?
Comment by Clif — April 30, 2006 @ 5:48 pm
Yes, and no. I think he and I are talking about the same thing though, semantics aside. About a global harmony, with the lasting flavor of tribal cultures. I think it is the same. We just have limited words and time to tie it all in together.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:00 pmPost 117 > Mighty Moron is a male drag queen pretending to be a female! Queens have nasty mouths and make up things about themselves, because they are very confused about their gender! MA is not a lawyer either or IT would converse on legal matters with Faire!
April 30th, 2006 at 6:04 pmNo, I will order this and read it, thanks for the recommendation and quotes.
It's changed many people's lives. Mine included.
As to headless democracies, I think this is the problem the UN suffers from at the moment - it is essentially leaderless and impotent. Having a strong leader to rally behind may be what the UN needs right now - it certainly focused the Romans but what corruption!
Comment by British Gary — April 30, 2006 @ 5:57 pm
I guess where we differ is that I don't think we need the global head (this is what Clif was aluding to). I don't think the U.N. does either. I justthink it is broken because it is comprised of a bunch of corrupt governments.
Democracy works on a small local level. So far, NOTHING seems to be working on a federal, much less global level in terms of leadership. And it's because that level of power, I think, corrupts. It's easier to evict your local neighbor who is getting power hungry, not so easy to do with the tyrant who controls the federal reserve's purse strings and the military.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:05 pmWhy not enjoy ignoring us all together and go away you could enjoy your self in any fasion you’d like and we would happier not to have your druel and spittle on our screens.
Comment by Clif — April 30, 2006 @ 5:58 pm
Touche'! That was hysterical.
I agree with what Jay said.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:07 pmUnbelievable you post about smaller societies that attempt to live in harmony some with NO individual leader,(Very few were controlled by a single leader) his was about an "elected" world government( single government democratically elected from the Prime Ministers and Presidents from around the world) The two are actually world apart in the way they would work and the inclusiones of any individual, the smaller the entity the greater the individuals input, but the larger the "government" the less each gets to individually contribute (unless they have the levers of power).
Philosophically you are looking for the same thing....people living in peace and harmony not attempting to gain advantages whether military or economic over each other, but his leads to the consecration of power which would be extremely tempting where the ones you cite they actual power resides in individual hands so no real ways to concentrate it and abuse it.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:11 pmDrag Queens also try to talk about their kids, if married, like they are the wife, but at the same time they spew such nasty stuff that NO real female ever talks that way > except a female hooker perhaps > lol.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:13 pmJay - You seem to be the type of "man" spurned by many women. Your Ryanne/esque response is sadly typical. As for all of you nihilist/tribal types, being your own "god" seems wonderfully convenient.
Clif- Thank you for further evidence that the supposedly tolerant "left" is the most intolerant segment of all..."The intoleRANCE of the toleRANT is stifling"
April 30th, 2006 at 6:16 pmBriseadh na Faire, why the need for a God at all, in a Shaman or any other sense? Just curious..... you might find this question too personal so I'm not expecting a reply.
Clif, I read the book you recommended some time ago and wrote a brief essay on my thoughts about it but I'm not sure whether or not you're interested in my thoughts on the matter. If you are, I'll e-mail the essay to you probably on Lydia's website.
As to 'Who writes the questions and who administers the tests and who oversees them, still have human beings overseeing enormous amounts of power, which will become corrupting' I agree again. I can only think of a judicial authority which is the best the world has at present.
unbelievable 'the freedom to decide my own purpose, and if so inclined, to chane it upon my own whim. I am not at the mercy of a puppet master, but am truly free' This is exactly how I feel. Free of dogma and ultimately responsible for everything I choose to do.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:18 pmClif,
We were talking philosophically. That's where I felt we agreed, and was pointing out. Not sure why the need to put us at odds.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:18 pmJay (121) thanks.
When she first started to claim she was a defense attorney, I took her at face value. I tend to do that with people, assume they're telling the truth until they prove otherwise.
BACK ON TOPIC:
I feel sorry for Mr. Powell. He knows his U.N. speech was a sell-out to the Administration, and has to live with that the rest of his life. That knowledge is eating him up inside. He is trying to attone for his role in the bloodshed of countless thousands of innocent Iraqis as well as the killed and wounded U.S. and coalition men and women.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:19 pmClif- Thank you for further evidence that the supposedly tolerant “left†is the most intolerant segment of all…â€The intoleRANCE of the toleRANT is stiflingâ€
Comment by mighty aphrodite — April 30, 2006 @ 6:16 pm
Then go away. You can't force us to adopt your viewpoint when we function on logic and rational reasoning. Go find some chicken blood drinking cult to spend your time with. We have made it clear that unless you can contribute to a discussion without insults or persoal attacks, we aren't interested in hearing what you have to say. Grow up, move on.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:21 pmPost 126 lol > you are NOT a real female so you have NO idea if women like me or not! If you are technically a female, because of a sex change operation like Ann Coulter, you still have NO idea about anything > lol.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:22 pmFree of dogma and ultimately responsible for everything I choose to do.
Comment by British Gary — April 30, 2006 @ 6:18 pm
Which, I think, is why organized religions have followers. Many of those people do not want to be responsible for themselves. Easier to be a jerk and then blame it on the Devil. Then Jesus can forgive you. Much easier than personal accountability... :)
April 30th, 2006 at 6:24 pmUnbelievable you truly are bless, cause (s)he is ignoring you at leasty that is what (s)he says but with the repug neo-cons we know not to actuasllky accept what they say at face value because they flip-flop so oftyen we can't be sure if they meant the flip or they mean the flop, but they will actually decry us for noticing the difference, like
Bush doesn't believe in nation building, actually given the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan he might not have changed, but he told us we had to export democracy there and help them nuild it.
He also said using the Strategic Reserve for political purposes was wrong until he has to do it.
And he declares Mission Accomplished three years ago...too bad he still has about 140,000 service personnel, (plus one imaginary one) working on it.
And the repug party called for fiscal responsibility until they get to spend the money and then they have to borrow and spend like a junkie, because they can't find enough money in the federal budget for their give aways....and everyone knows that they want to leave somethinbg for future generations to remember them by.....to bad a fiscally sound country and good will of the other nations on this planet was not enough,
April 30th, 2006 at 6:27 pmCliff, "why the need for a God at all, in a Shaman or any other sense?"
No, it's not too personal. I didn't state a 'need for a God' I stated what I sensed...a consciousness, if you will, external to my own, yet...connected.
For example, place an ice cube in a pool of water. Both are of the same matter, though the ice cube is separate and distinct from the water. (If I take the analogy further it gets into string theory and quantum physics and far too much for this board)
Perhaps it is the same way with consciousness. Our consciousness is separate and distinct, yet of the same substance as some greater consciousness.
There is a word for it: Namaste.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:29 pmDemocracy works on a small local level. So far, NOTHING seems to be working on a federal, much less global level in terms of leadership. And it’s because that level of power, I think, corrupts.
Comment by unbelievable
Yup. I agree. But how would you ensure global unity without a leader?
'the ones you cite they actual power resides in individual hands so no real ways to concentrate it and abuse it'
Comment by Clif
Yup. I agree again, but it also suggests no real ways to USE it, therefore ineffective.
Mighty Hypocrite, you spew crap and lies yet think you shouldn't receive the same. Arrogance supreme. I bet you're religious aren't you? 'The lies and hatred only get you more of the same' Comment by unbelievable
And she's right you know.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:33 pmI get a picture in my head of MA wearing a red dress with thick pancake makeup on ITS face to cover up the beard stubble, ruby red lippstick, big phony eyelashes with black mascara > lol.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:36 pmClif,
MA says that he ignores me, but only when convenient. He knows that I see through his lies and only tries to deflect thetruth whenever I call him on it. On occasion, when he thinks he actually has something clever to say, he tries to insult me. Always backfires.
He's a man. No question for me anymore. There is no husband, human children (hamsters or chihuahuas more likely), no law career. And the thing is, if he's come in here being honest about who he is, we would have accepted a transgendered law clerk saving up to have reassignment surgery. What we don't accept is a liar who insults others to feel better aboutthe fact that his parents probably don't speak to him and straight men won't date him. I feel sorry for people like that. I do. I've known many people in my life who struggle to be themselves because society cannot accpet those who aren't the ideal. But to come in here and deman others - to do what is done to you - well, sorry, but that's not acceptable.
He should pick a new screen name, come back and be honest. He might be surprised to find that not only are we accpeting of others for who they are when they chose to be nice (notice how he throws that around a lot- about us not being accepting).
Bush needs to be removed from office. If we have to fire every Congressman and Senator up for re-election, we should. We want change, so change should be the message we send Washington. Bush's job or theirs. Their choice. And they have 6 months left to decide.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:38 pmClif,
We were talking philosophically. That’s where I felt we agreed, and was pointing out. Not sure why the need to put us at odds.
Comment by unbelievable — April 30, 2006 @ 6:18 pm
Unbelievable it was not the philosophy but the mechanisims that BG was espouting, he and I have discussed this at lenght on another blog, and I am simply stating my beliefs that when the agency whether corporate or government becomes large enough it will become beaurocratic and able for individuals in position to corrupt it, whether Enron, worldcom, tyco, USSR, China or our government at the federal level especially since 2000
I did not want a disagreement but point out the enherant problem with large entities of power and the abuses by individuals when tempted by it.
Particins in each system will decry the coruption of the other like the USSR vs US in the 50's and 60's where we decried them for the way they treated disenters and they decried us for the way minorities were treated especially in the south.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:39 pm(If I take the analogy further it gets into string theory and quantum physics and far too much for this board)
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — April 30, 2006 @ 6:29 pm
I would enjoy the thread but even though I spend quite a bit of time reading about modern physics, I am limited in my understanding there....
April 30th, 2006 at 6:45 pmYup. I agree. But how would you ensure global unity without a leader?
Comment by British Gary — April 30, 2006 @ 6:33 pm
It is human nature to want to help. You don't have to do anything to ensure it. Look at how we just banned together to protest MA's hostile actions. The same would occur in the world without a leader. Things aren't and won't always be fair. But, none of us get promised that. And as we are seeing, a leader doesn't ensure unity either ; )
Gonna go get dinner and watch 60 Minutes. Stephen Colbert is supposed to be a guest tonight. Be back later.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:45 pmPost 137 > good advice for MA, but IT most likely will not do that?! I have met a few drag queens in bars and they are very confused > even Gay guys do not want to date them > lol.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:45 pmToday was a lovely spring day. Life is too short to be sitting at your computer yammering about how horrible the world is. Dont worry, you’ll think it is just as crappy tommorow.You can catterwall then.GO OUT AND ENJOY THE REST OF TODAY. I’m gonna go back up on the deck to watch the sunset. Watching sunrises and sunsets WILL make you feel better. Live life in the outdoors, not in front of this dumbass plastic prison called “my PC.†I’ve already wasted 2 minutes informing you of the weather. GET OUT OF THE HOUSE!…….NOW!
April 30th, 2006 at 6:46 pmClif, I read the book you recommended some time ago and wrote a brief essay on my thoughts about it but I’m not sure whether or not you’re interested in my thoughts on the matter. If you are, I’ll e-mail the essay to you probably on Lydia’s website.
Comment by British Gary — April 30, 2006 @ 6:18 pm
Gary you should know from our other discussions that I am interested in others thoughts, but I also will provide input also, especially where some like MA simply spew junk to abstruct, then I feel it is a free fire zone and feel no need for holding back.
besides Lydia's site is quite for now so we could exchange freely for a while....
April 30th, 2006 at 6:50 pmBritish Nihilist - I apologize for interrupting your stream of thought. As a recovering liberal, I have a viewpoint different than the few who post here. it is interesting for people with a differing point of view to visit and see what those with opposing views "feel".
Your regurgitation of some of the less colourful remarks about me demonstrates a fine example of "herd" mentality. But let's be thankful that you are able to opine in English rather than German.
A question re: your point about global unity needing a leader. I view the small tribe theory as the root of what our current sociological situation is today. Small tribes would eventually evolve into nation/states. Did you discuss parlimentary representation and the assurances of a Bill of Rights?
April 30th, 2006 at 6:50 pmComment by OLD,WISE and HAPPY. — April 30, 2006 @ 6:46 pm
rerposting the same shutup comment on three threads is simply a troll trick to seem intelligent, but go out side, go to the bathroom but go away just the same.....
April 30th, 2006 at 6:52 pmGary I think MA wants to know if what (s)he reads in the 11th grade textbook is the way you see it.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:55 pmBriseadh na Faire, I asked the question not Clif, I meant the need to call anything (e.g. consciousness) God-related. I hold that a human consciousness is a concept, not a substance. The ice cube is separate and distinct from the water because each are in a different state of energy. Each has a different enthalpy.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:56 pmHuman consciousness is a concept shared by humans and has no enthalpy as it is not comprised of matter. Human consciousness is not only not a substance, it is not part of a greater consciousness either because it is an individual concept. Just because two humans are capable of the same concept does not mean it has or is shared between the two or any more. For example, I have no idea what you are thinking right now so I have to type this to find out. Yet we both have a consciousness.
MA, as I have demonstrated on this thread I have my own mentality and not a herd one. Where I agree with others I say so just as where I disagree with others I argue my point.
As to your question, I think it's more pertinent to have proportional representation to ensure a democratic parliamentary representation. I agree with you, there must be a Bill of Rights (I think at a global level) and legislature for judicial flexibility at a provincial level to allow the maintenance of cultures.
Clif, I'll pop over to Lydia's site now and show you my essay. Please let me know what you think, cheers.
April 30th, 2006 at 7:12 pmI appreciate the inclusion of a Bill of Rights to protect minority views and expression. Unfortunately, today there is very little tolerance of other viewpoints.
April 30th, 2006 at 7:26 pm#102 unbelievable --
April 30th, 2006 at 7:31 pmI will research St. Thomas. Thank you.
#114 BnF
That seems logical to me.
As for string theory -- I saw a PBS program that fascinated me, but my brain had trouble grasping the whole of it and the scientist was already moving forward. I would need to take a class in order to devote sufficient time to absorb it and ask about a zilion questions.
Clif
I always appreciate your comments.
British Gary - my apologies.
As regards the ice cube analogy, it is just that, an attempt at using a physical world analogy for a process that is, essentially, energy.
"Human consciousness is not only not a substance, it is not part of a greater consciousness "
This is precicely where I offer a differing point of view: that human consciousness is part of a greater consciousness.
Can it be proved? no. It is just what I sense, and what I believe others write about when describing the Tao, the Universal Consciousness, the One, the All, or, if you will, God.
I appreciate the fact that we can share such individual and personal concepts on this board with mutual respect.
April 30th, 2006 at 7:43 pmBriseadh na Faire, I agree with your belief that our consciousness is connected with something greater out there(as opposed to being in here(my mind)) and I believe that the consciousness wants us to grow and prefect the thought and intentions we act by not memorise some archane dogma to be mindlessly recited in public to prove our fidielity to an approved version of GOD, I however feel that the consciensousness that I call GOD is very personnal and private as such you can not expierence my relationship but must develope your own. And the relationship is more important than some list cut in stone ever will be. But then a personnal relationship with GOD is not very open to political or comercial exploitation thus to be discouraged for the ones that make money and "good" converts to the movements...and fill the collection plates, and TV donation requests......
April 30th, 2006 at 8:27 pmBriseadh na Faire, I have respect for anyone who has a modicum of decency for others in this world as I appreciate it can be very difficult sometimes to do so. Nice chatting with you too.
As an atheist, I find it interesting listening/reading others religious opinions and then discussing them.
If 'human consciousness is part of a greater consciousness' then why can you not perceive others thoughts? I am trying to understand what it is exactly that you sense that I do not?
Seriously, what is it that you say you sense? Is it something you really sense or is it a desire to? Something that you want very much to be there?
April 30th, 2006 at 8:28 pmBG I am not sure if Briseadh na Faire would put it this way but to me it is like a large communications company where they large company has the ability to connect with all but each individual is limited in the ways they can connect and must go thru the collective (company) to connect with others..(spiritually)
But when we use the solid physical world we use speech and writing, the senses of the physical body to exchange ideas with each other.
April 30th, 2006 at 8:40 pmBut then a personnal relationship with GOD is not very open to political or comercial exploitation thus to be discouraged for the ones that make money and “good†converts to the movements…and fill the collection plates, and TV donation requests……
Comment by Clif — April 30, 2006 @ 8:27 pm
Oh yeah... I saw this ironic juxtaposition of billboards a couple weeks ago. The one on top was screaming DIVORCING? for an attorney ad, while the one below it was and advertisment for a church. After I stopped laughing at the sight, I realized how Capitialism and Christianity were very interesting bed fellows. Both bringing out the worst in one another.
We'd not have wound up with theocrats in power if we'd been a nation of Hindus or Taoists. But Christianity, well, look at what we have. Interesting...
April 30th, 2006 at 8:46 pmYour regurgitation of some of the less colourful remarks about me demonstrates a fine example of “herd†mentality. But let’s be thankful that you are able to opine in English rather than German.
Comment by mighty aphrodite
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh please not the 'we saved your butts in WWII argument'. And if wasn't for United States of America, you'd all be speaking German argument.
If it wasn't for the brave men and women of the armed forces, the resistance fighters and the many European citizens who stood-up to Nazi Germany, then America could be speaking German as well.
In the summer of 1940, Britain stood alone against the might of the German Luftwaffe. The Royal Air Force (RAF) was vastly outnumbered by the sheer size and might of the German Luftwaffe. Pilots represented the RAF from thirteen different countries (including seven Americans). The saw off the threat of the Luftwaffe, and stopped the invasion of Great Britain.
If ‘The Battle Of Britain’ had not been won, Great Britain would have been invaded. And what was to stop Nazi Germany goose-stepping all the way to the United States?
For two years the British, Free French, Polish and many other nationalities, including the fine people of the Commonwealth, held back the tide of the mighty German forces. It was nice of the Americans to join us in December 1941, better late than never I suppose. But please no more ‘if it wasn’t for America, you guys would be history’ talk. I’ve heard the right-wing of America use it on countless occasions. Especially Bill O’Reilly when he is chastising the French, for not backing America in George W. Bush’s ‘War On Terror’, and being against the invasion of Iraq.
562,000 French people died (military and civilians) during WWII. Maybe the French didn't want to add to the total, in an unjust war. So to all those right-wing bigots, who call the French cowards, for not wanting to join-in Bush's great 'Nobel Cause’? Learn some history, and then see if you're fit to judge another nation, and their reasoning for not wanting to get involved with George W. Bush's piece of megalomaniac folly.
April 30th, 2006 at 8:48 pmIf ‘human consciousness is part of a greater consciousness’ then why can you not perceive others thoughts? I am trying to understand what it is exactly that you sense that I do not?
Comment by British Gary — April 30, 2006 @ 8:28 pm
I'm with you on this one. That there is an energy force that occupies all space. But that it is neither conscious nor intentional. That it simply is.
That Quantum Mechanics tells us that there are infinite possibilities.
Sometimes I sense things that are about to happen before they do. Rather strongly. Unlike others who believe there is a conscious will, I think I just have the ability, being right-brain dominant and therefore 'big-picture' oriented, to sometimes process possibilities that are greater than others. For example, given a certain circumstances, there are higher liklihoods of one thing happening more than others. In times when the liklihood is significant, I am able to detect it, and therefore have a 'hunch' about what is about to happen. I don't if it makes sense. But, I believe there is a logical explanation for everything. And that when we don't know what it is, we tend to find comfort in the idea that we are not alone or that there is some greater purpose.
April 30th, 2006 at 8:54 pmActually Mr. Powell, a lot of us were in the streets saying how bad of a screw up it would be, how it would lead to civil war, how you lied before the Security Council, etc. We were called paranoid nutjobs, peaceniks, unAmerican, traitors, and even professional protestors on Saddam's dime.
Now we see it was you and your friends who were full of it, who had sold out the country and are anti-American. So please don't say "no one anticipated" how badly it would turn out. Hundreds of thousands of people knew exactly what would happen.
April 30th, 2006 at 9:22 pmPowell criticizes administration...
Perhaps they shouldn't have let Colin Powell retire. From Think Progress:POWELL: There were debates about the size of the force and there were serious debates about the way in which we would deal with the aftermath, and the aftermath turned...
April 30th, 2006 at 9:56 pmMay we continue this in a more private forum?
You may contact me at myspammailbox at hotmail dot com.
Thank you.
April 30th, 2006 at 10:19 pmTo Clif at #145 My apoligies for the multiple post.I'm new at this. I have been reading these post for weeks, and this was my first writings. I was just wondering who would be inside on a lovely day. I have been reading these post long enough to know you call republicans trolls and to that I take exception. I've been a proud and quite active registered Democrat since 1938. I was even arrested a few times down south during Civil Rights marches. I reread my post I dont see me mentioning anything but the nice day and yet you've attacked me. Clif, I'm nearing 80 and again, Life is short(and getting shorter). Clif,activism is the sprit of life but you have to love life and enjoy it. Sadly I get the feeling you don't. I've gone on long enough.
April 30th, 2006 at 10:24 pmIf you are what you post my apologies but way too many times a troll comes in here disrupting the thread wherte a good discussion is taking place, and here in central KY it was raining a lot today, I spent yesterday outside at my younger daughters Birthday, we had a couple of horses friends own and the she and her friends got to ride for a while. I enjoy my life, and on a good sunny day I spend quite a bit of time rolling down the highway on my bike.
Life is too short to be sitting at your computer yammering about how horrible the world is. Dont worry, you’ll think it is just as crappy tommorow.You can catterwall then
The above quote from your post has some troll characteristics in it thus in the heat of the debate I responded to them...
April 30th, 2006 at 10:47 pm#162 Read the posts from 6:44 to your second 10:24 and see if the discussion was worth the time.
April 30th, 2006 at 10:54 pmIts OK Clif, I was just saying tommorow was another day to post. Nice to hear you ride. Had both a Pan and a Shovel in younger days.
April 30th, 2006 at 10:55 pmThank you Thebes- #158!
Now we have civil war in Iraq and civil war in a family. Large chunk of "family" hurled those names at us & more, disregarding 40-60 years of personal relationships for Bush & the Neo-Con's sick agenda.
In addition to probably 3,000 service people dead, 15,000+ maimed & countless Iraqi's & innocent Afghans dead, we have lost what moral authority we had in the world to stop mayhem & fundamentalist extremists. Darfur and other places being examples.
If it weren't so tragic, there would be some glee, both personal & intellectual in saying "Told ya so!" The "family" Gxxm betrayed trust & love; the "family" Bush betrayed the world.
We still march, as we did in Oct 2002, even though we are disgusting, liberal traitors full of crap.
Less willing to give C Powell the benefit of the doubt, than we would have in the fall of 2004. If he had come out of the closet then.......... There is unscrubable blood underneath his and others' fingernails. We are not in a forgiving mode.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:02 pmPost 161 OWH > Clif is a nice guy, so you two had a misunderstanding perhaps? We have some real nasty Bush loving trolls on here, but as long as you are not one of them, nobody will tangle with you much on here! Have a good evening and your posts are welcome on TP!
April 30th, 2006 at 11:03 pmHave a 91 lowrider I am selling to a brother, have a 2001 sporster, I am "chopping " and a 2003 100th dresser. Riding is one thing where i let it all stay home and enjoy the planet as much as possible
April 30th, 2006 at 11:07 pmClif, Been around for a few wars and a few more presidents,and these two now are the worst I've seen. Waste of young lives and old money. The bush family has been Knee deep in screwing my country since the 20's. On another note does anyone younger than 60 say "catterwall" just asking. And yes most post are worth the time.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:10 pmEveryone watch out for the GURU troll > him/her is posting under several GURU variations on TP tonight, so far on other threads > nasty Bush lover troll!
April 30th, 2006 at 11:18 pmNo to catterwall, and I was in the first Gulf War, was the main reason for buying the lowrider, my present to me for surviving the desert.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:19 pmJay I have read some of his posts where he pretends about 6-10 of us are the same person, he needs a life, but as a troll he is working for KKKarl for minimum wage so what kind of life can he get in repugville?
April 30th, 2006 at 11:22 pmYes post 171 Clif > GURU is claiming that we are just a few on here posting with different screennames and then tonight comes on here as GURU this or that after it?! He/she must be around age 20 or less > a lowly paid Karl Rove operative > lol.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:28 pmThank you for your service to my country. And very NICE RIDES. Took a quick spin on my grandson's V rod last summer. Too high and too torquey for me. You think the kid would get something Pops could steal.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:28 pmNever really cared for the V-Rod, it sits wrong and doesn't look good for a all day ride, I do a dozen or more each season.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:36 pmI got my leg on it ok lots of trouble getting off. Back to politics, I almost feel responsible for the way things are today. In the early 40s I met Prescott Bush while driving a taxi in NYC. It was before he was a senator. If I knew then what I know now I would of hit him with that cab. Could have kept the whole damn family out of politics. Anyone got a time machine?
April 30th, 2006 at 11:48 pmNo but don't blame yourself, he fooled a lot of people, just like his offspring(even the c students)
April 30th, 2006 at 11:51 pmIf and Ans. Goodnite Clif, hope to talk it up with you again. goodnite to Jay also
April 30th, 2006 at 11:55 pmLater keep the faith that has sustained you all these years
May 1st, 2006 at 12:06 am#175 go to bed grandpa we dont want to hear your Walton mountain storys. Clif what is this your fantasy afterschool special movie "Clifford and the Pops a biker story". bd enough with your liberal crap now we gotta hear from some dinosaur talking about the forties. whats next he met al capone.
May 1st, 2006 at 12:10 amNo little blowhard but showing a bigmouth like you what a chicken-hawk he really is.
May 1st, 2006 at 12:13 amhey i think its jay randall starring as "POPS" and starring as himself "CLIF" guest appearence Lucille Ball as the crazy redhead.
May 1st, 2006 at 12:21 am#180 little blowhard, you see the thread of this particular blog was we didn't have enough people when George the chicken-hawk bush and dick I got 6 deferments from Vietnam cheney sent the American soldiers to illegally invade the country of Iraq they did so on the cheap with out enough soldiers and Marines to actually strategically control the theater of combat and stabilize the country and secure the borders to preclude infiltration by foreign elements that might attempt to take advantage of the situation for ulterior political and military purposes. If they had enough soldiers they could have created a situation to rebuild the mechanisms of political stability rather quickly and rebuilding the infrastructure could have proceeded so that the indigenous population would have not had a reason to covertly aid in the current insurgency let alone in actively participating in it. But george the dumb and dead eye dick relied on a incompetent moron for secretary of defence, rumsfeld who can not accept his not capabile of making a mistake let alone admitting he is one. thus we had stay the course u8ntil the course was nothing less than fiasco and low level open civil war. Now they are desperately looking for a quick way out and openly admitting that the problems that the invasion caused are going to be left to the Iraqi's to solve AKA afghanistan in the late 1980's and we all know where thatr lead.......but bloviate on instead of putting your fat a$$ where your big loud mouth is.
May 1st, 2006 at 12:32 am#179#181 Have some respect for your elders. That man probably did more in any one year period than you could ever hope to accomplish in your whole life. He lived thru more changes in society and the world than any other period in this country. Stop showing your ignorance. Of all the posters on TP you want to pick a fight with someone who lived in our country thru the depression, WW2 Korea cicil rights vietnam 2 gulf wars. You shame yourself.
May 1st, 2006 at 12:34 amKenny my 179 post was:
Later keep the faith that has sustained you all these years
Comment by Clif — May 1, 2006 @ 12:06 am
However my 181 post was calling a blowhard a blowhard....
could you have meant 180 and 182 instead?
May 1st, 2006 at 12:38 amOld, Wise and Happy, the comment by "big hal" is indicative of what are called "trolls." I, for one, would be happy to hear your stories.
I have a question for you. Many are comparing the Bush Administration to the Nazis. As one who lived through that era, is the comparison valid?
May 1st, 2006 at 12:45 amOld, Wise and Happy, the comment by "big hal" is indicative of what are called "trolls." I, for one, would be happy to hear your stories.
I have a question for you. Many are comparing the Bush Administration to the Nazis. As one who lived through that era, is the comparison valid?
May 1st, 2006 at 12:45 amBig Hal, While I have a right slant on many things political.You should learn to listen to those who have been on this earth longer than yourself. This blog is about troop strength. whether you think we should have gone to war or not is one thing, But this is a horrible mess of a war and is run terribly.When someone like old wise and happy said hes lived thru a few wars and this is the worst you MUST give him credit being hes seen more than most. On a personal note if your gonna conduct a war, not using the biggest force you have available to end it quickly is stupid and should be criminal.
May 1st, 2006 at 12:50 amCLIF, SORRY its late and I'm tired. I like OWH reminds me alot of my father when he was alive. You gotta love the old guys tough as nails afraid of no one. I cant wait to see him post tommorow
May 1st, 2006 at 12:54 amPost 181 big hal > you are a Bush loving dunce on prozac, so go give Dubya a BJ since you love him so much > lol. Your humor is very poor!
Clif > posts 179 and 181 are big hal the Bush lover troll!Easy to mix up posts on here > Kenny is attacking big hal and not you!
May 1st, 2006 at 12:54 amKenny not a problem I could see that is what you meant, i enjoyed talking with him, OWH sounds like he has a lot to contribute.....
May 1st, 2006 at 12:57 amAND one more thing OWH was right about. Its time to say goodnite. These old guys .....so wise. goodnite all.
May 1st, 2006 at 1:00 amkenny go tuck grandpa walton in. goodnight clif goodnight jay goodnight johnboy
May 1st, 2006 at 1:04 amPost 192 > I see you changed your screenname from: big hal to Big Hal > 2 screens huh?
May 1st, 2006 at 1:13 amTime for bed > bye Clif and all the rest! Sweet dreams tonight of Bush gagging on another pretzel > lol.
May 1st, 2006 at 1:19 amthere jay 3 screens ooooohhhhhhhh
May 1st, 2006 at 1:24 amwe can win this one in iran, if we go in with enough troops! cue the draft..
May 1st, 2006 at 2:36 amJay Randal: You, sir, are an Ass-Clown.Every thing you write is a big steaming pile.
May 1st, 2006 at 2:43 amANVILHEAD, go to Iraq yourself you girl. It says a lot about you when you are too frightened to get off your arse and head over there yourself. You are nothing but a chickenhawk. What's that? Are you too scared?????? I fought over there and it was nothing but murder. SCARED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hey look everyone, Anvilhead can't take the pressure!!!!!! Be a real man.
You are a cold blooded killer. You quote Jesus? He hates you. You will burn in hell for your blatant disregard for God's life.
May 1st, 2006 at 4:20 amWar is the most catastrophic, irreversible, unpredictable course of action any President can undertake. It is obviously the case here in Iraq. This does not mean however, that war is always unjustified. The core flaw (among many with the current administration) was the Bush doctrine/policy of pre-emptive attack. When a country wages war--especially a democratic country--it must do so from an unassailable moral highground. I notice none of the above comments mention the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. Why? Because 9/11 gave us the unquestionable moral justification (domestically and internationally) to take out the Taliban supporters of Al Qaida. We had nowhere near the moral justification needed to unilaterally invade Iraq.
Sometimes being the good guys means the bad guys get to take the first punch. Our strong military is there to deter any of our enemies from doing so, and in the case they take a punch anyhow, ensuring that we completely (justifiably) smash them to the point they can never do so again against anyone. The Bush Doctrine of preemption has been a complete failure from many standpoints.
To the atheists, agnostics, and secularists out there, not all Christians blindly support Bush. To both sides--let's keep the dialogue respectful.
May 1st, 2006 at 5:02 amYOU ALL ANTI WAR COMMIE PACIFISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GOD TOLD US TO BURN ALL IRAQIS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GOD SPOKE TO ME HIMSELF AND TOLD ME HOW REAL AND TRUE THE PRESIDENT IS!!!!
YEEEHAAAAAA!!!!!
Anyway, these people in iraq deserve to die as they have WMD!!!!
May 1st, 2006 at 5:27 amAll democrats are poofters. It's a good job they aren't in GOD's army as there would be no killing of iraqis going on.....just hot anal action in the mess tent. Oh yeah, give it to me hard fellow commie!!! I like it deep!
May 1st, 2006 at 5:32 amIs he on a book tour or something?
What's he trying to sell?
Instead of resigning immediately back then, out of protest, and going to the press with the facts, he goes to the U.N. instead with the phony mobile labs story?
This jackass suckbutt should explain why he kept quiet with the truth to the families of the dead and maimed.
May 1st, 2006 at 8:06 am#199 - Wisdom
Well said.
VERY well said.
May 1st, 2006 at 9:03 amHappy Beltane all, Lot's of good posts and a few worth skipping over. ......Hay lead head, you still did not give us the answer to my questions, what good has bush done for our country and the world.?
M.A....I was raised well by my great grand mother, I follow her thinking. show honor and respect where due and earned. Never follow others by their words but by their deeds. To follow blindly shows a lazy mind.
Say, we have a couple of new posters, bravo and thank's for your posts......Spent most of yesterday out side hugging trees and planting, plan to do the same today....
powell,bush,cheney and this entire regime still suck and I wonder what bible lead head is reading that tell him/her to kill every one in Iraq and the world.? Maybe in bushes book,'my pet goat" there is something about this. LOL......Blessings all, we need them.
May 1st, 2006 at 10:39 amPost 197 E-coli > since your screenname denotes a bowel affliction > you are the steaming pile of crap on here > lol. What a pathetic Bush loving troll you are for sure > shame on you! Call me any name you like > it just proves you are childish and cannot debate facts!
May 1st, 2006 at 10:40 am# 204 Sharon:
''May I make my fond excuses
May 1st, 2006 at 11:17 am----for the late-ness of the hour;
But we accept your invitation,
----and would bring you Beltane's flower.''
....
I am so sick of whining, lazy liberals! What happened to the country that stood as one during WWII and went for all it took. And we still are in almost all of the countries we had to fight for/in! Every one of those countries that has kept us on has succeded -- the ones we left (Philipines) has/in failing. We should be willing to stick it out and help, that's what we do! I agree we shouldn't have to be the world's only 'policeman', but we used to be a country of people who stood as one mind and might. Now we are a bunch a marshmellows - truely, becoming obese in our minds and our bodies! We are letting a group of messed up politicians rule our minds and slowly - our country -- and I'm not talking about group in power now! Luckily life is a circle, and we're headed for a fall. When we don't take a stand as a people for lines being drawn, and instead accept everybody, and everything we lose direction and focus. Then wonder why predators attack our children -- come on people it all ties together! It will get so low and bad people will demand a change and be willing to live by rules again!
May 1st, 2006 at 12:04 pmLet's hear it for Colin Powell....................................(crickets chirping)
Sorry Sir, your 2400 deaths, 27,000 injured, 150,000 plus Iraqi Deaths
Late
You can pick your conscience up in HELL!!!
May 1st, 2006 at 12:11 pm#199, 'To the atheists, agnostics, and secularists out there, not all Christians blindly support Bush'
Comment by Wisdom
This is exactly what I mean about arrogance:
1. as a contributing atheist to this thread nowhere have I intoned that I think all Christians blindly support Bush
2. what a humble moniker you've given yourself (sarcasm off)
Are you religious by any chance? And please don't choose to think I believe all religious people are arrogant as I do not. I've met some very humble priests. That would be arrogant of you.
May 1st, 2006 at 3:13 pmTouche' Gary!
Funny how certain people seem to lump all non-religious folks together and try to label us with a one-size-fits-all ideology. They don't get that we reject pre-defined ideologies for authoring our own. And that we can't be uniformly catagorized anymore than they can be. Nice response.
May 1st, 2006 at 3:36 pmhi unbelievable, thanks, at least the moniker you've chosen reflects (political if not personal) reality.
I find the whole notion of 'living forever' very primitive and the ultimate in arrogance.
Even if you could - and it's impossible in reality only possible in mythology - would living forever drive a human mind insane? I think it may, you'd end up forgetting more than you could learn and eventual, relentless boredom of repetition would be the trigger. If everything was 'perfect and wonderful' all the time then perfect and wonderful would soon become the norm and cease to be 'perfect and wonderful'. I wonder just how many religious people ever truly consider the meaning of 'eternity'?
May 1st, 2006 at 4:04 pmunbelievable, sorry forgot to mention, thanks for the recommendation yesterday, I've ordered the book now but it's coming from your neck of the woods and will take ages to wing it's way to Britain - 6 weeks! You never know when terrorists may strike so lets leave the ports under Arab management and screen loads of export post.
May 1st, 2006 at 4:08 pmGary,
Oh, no problem. It's a powerful book. I hope you'll like it.
6 weeks? It's a six hour flight from NYC. How hard is it to get a book on a plane?
You'll have to let me know what you think. I've loaned my copyto about 7 different people now. Two were too religious to even really consider it, but the others said it changed them. Some of us who initially read it at the same time in 1999 still discuss it. It's like you become related to those who've read it.
I'd say skip 'Ishmael Too' (the first sequel) and go for 'The Story of B '(second sequel) if you decide, after Ishmael, that you want to read more. I haven't read 'Beyond Civilization' (the finale), but heard it was just okay in comparision with the series.
May 1st, 2006 at 4:37 pmI wonder just how many religious people ever truly consider the meaning of ‘eternity’?
Comment by British Gary — May 1, 2006 @ 4:04 pm
I'm guessing zero. I've, so far, never met anyone who didn't question the system and wind up walking away from it. Many end up believing in a spirituality, but not in an organized format. Once you decide for yourself, how can you ever go back into the dark closet and close the door?
I've frequently said I'd rather have 80 years of mostly wonderful than an eternity of ordinary. And I mean it.
Enjoy your evening!
May 1st, 2006 at 4:41 pmCompletely agreed..I could give a rat's ass about what Powell has to say, after the fact.
You have to give respect to have it returned.
May 1st, 2006 at 10:59 pmEvery one of those countries that has kept us on has succeded — the ones we left (Philipines) has/in failing. We should be willing to stick it out and help, that’s what we do!
Comment by Steve Rice #206
Sleazy Lice,
SUCCEEDED?
...what have we helped them SUCCEED in?
...in being MORE corrupt, LESS civilized?
...MORE murderous?
...EXPLOITATIVE?
...you Koolaid drinking, mindless, inbred al Cracker bi*ch...
...you need HELP!
...you need to be LIBERATED, Bushite a*s-wipe...
...and for your info?
...some of us DON"T WANT to be "united" with your unintelligent, easily duped a*ses...
May 2nd, 2006 at 3:06 pm